"Slightly below average at center" is kind.

What mid level pitcher out there is better than Esteban Loaiza?

Also, Silver seems to be falling into the trap of assembling the best team for your dollar, rather than the best team period. The Dodgers have money to spend this offseason, they should spend it on something that impoves the team.

If Nate's prediction is correct, I'll be ecstatic.

Who coined the phrase/name Darth Flanders? Genius.

While I've advocated the same thing as Nate, once Arod opted out I'd still make a run at him.

I don't have access to BP. Does he make a specific argument about why the best player in baseball would not help the Dodgers enough to make him worth the cost -- especially when he says the Dodgers will be slightly below average at 3B next year?

I would like to see a good attempt at Petitte or Schilling. I like that lineup a lot that you posted Jon. Throw in some dominant pitching and the Dodgers are a fine ball club. Torre maybe be the guy to round guys like Kemp or Laroche into shape mentally and physically.

1, 2, 4 - I agree.

3 I suppose I did. Based on a comment regfairfield made:
"A bit surprising, but it does fit in with Ned's Darth Vader like tolerance for failure."

https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/855301.html#226

2
Carlos Silva? Though I would prefer Schilling for about $3 mil more for one year rather than paying Silva $10 mil/4 years.

2 I agree, too. Isn't that the ARONS philosophy?

He also makes the case that the Dodgers should explore trading Furcal to make room for Hu. Any thoughts on what Furcal could bring? That would free up about half of a potential Arod salary, too.

I agree with 5 . I would go further and say that focusing only about A-Rod's salary is looking only at one side of the Dodger balance sheet for next year.

The thing that intrigues me the most about Arod is what position does he want to play. He had to play 3rd when he agreed to play for the Yankee's but it must have bugged him daily to know he was better then the GoldGlove guy playing next to him.
I get much more giddy over a Loney/Hu/Arod/LaRoche lineup then a Loney/Kent/Furcal/Arod lineup for the future.

I think trying to add Mo Rivera is a great idea.

He is still really good and hasn't really shown any signs of slowing down with his peripherals.

8 My Star Wars knowledge is limited (i.e. pieced together from pop culture references and a prequel or two), but Darth Flanders made me lol.

And hopefully, the Dodgers rotation will be overfilled next year, assuming McDonald is ready and that Schmidt is healthy. It's silly to assume they'll all be healthy for the year, but starting pitching seems to be a plus. Has there been any more buzz about Mazzone? I suppose that was mainly due to his ties to Grady.

2
I also agree with the premise of putting the best team on the field with the players that you have and are available. I just can't see a scenario where we could not afford to pay ARod.

Conservatively, we have about $32 million coming off the payroll this year, though about 5-10 of that will go back into the bench, bullpen, and a catcher. Next year we have over 30 million coming off with Kent, Nomar, and Lowe all becoming FA and all would have viable, cheap internal options (Abreu, Elbert/Mcdonald/Kershaw).

We truly can afford this guy. Why should we not?

9 I don't really like pitchers who only bring control to the table. From what I've observed, they seem far more likely to completely disintegrate and Silva seems pretty likely to become Odalis II, just with a bigger contract.

17 Seriously, isn't that what this youth movement is all about? Have big production for low cost so that you can spend money freely where you need to?

Schilling + Rivera = same costs as Arod.

I think you would improve the overall pitching substantially.

How many years would it take to sign A-Rod? 8? 10?

Looking at Silva's PECOTA comparables most of them lost effectiveness once they past age 28 or 29.

20
I just don't see the need for Rivera with Brox/Saito in the pen and Meloan in the wings. I would rather see that $12 million go somewhere else or have that money go to eating Pierre's salary and sending him somewhere.

For God's sake, Coco Crisp is being mentioned in rumors. We could unload Pierre if we ate half of his salary and just called it a day.

Loney has never showed any signs of power in the minors, playing a power position.

Does showing lots of power in the majors count?

13 and I like the thought of a Loney/Abreu/Hu/ARod infield....

get rid of Kent, get rid of Furcal, get rid of Pierre...ARod's salary is covered for a couple of years at least...

if Hu can't cut it, ARod moves back to SS and we try LaRoche

I just don't see the need for Rivera with Brox/Saito in the pen and Meloan in the wings. I would rather see that $12 million go somewhere else or have that money go to eating Pierre's salary and sending him somewhere.

Of course its not a need but if we are trying to improve the team, this would be one way of doing it. Having an absurdly deep bullpen offsets a mediocre back of the rotation. We are not really restrained by costs and if offensive help isn't feasible, might as well improve your strength with one of the best.

Billy Ashley showed power in the minors.

You have a no hit shortstop
Furcal was injured this season. A line of .300/.369/.445 is not no-hit.

Ethier doesn't get injured by his manager after temper tantrums.

24
I still think that Ethier for Bradley fiasco ranks right up there with the Pedro/DeLino deal as one of the dumbest in Dodger history

Are you saying that was a bad move? If nothing else Ethier has been a healthy league average guy.

28 He also struck out every other at bat. Just because Billy Ashley didn't translate well to the majors doesn't mean you can't get a decent picture of how a guy can perform if you look at the right numbers.

You guys should probably ignore ii2...he's not really here to generate intelligent discussion.

30 I think this is another one of JoeyP's good friends.

27
I do not agree, but I think it is moot anyway since he has signed his contract already according to the NY papers.

31 I'm with you.

32, 33-I was just going to say, Do Not Feed...

21 - This is where I like having Ned - he could probably pull off a 7 year deal with A-Rod.

Perhaps I'd be a bit more of an oppurtunist if ways arose to improve the team, but that said can we have Nate Silver for GM? Please!

24 Its quite a stretch to classify Furcal a non hitter and Loney with no power.

Why would we want to get rid of Furcal in a contract year? Do you guys really want Pierre batting leadoff that badly?

Loney's .538 SLG led players on the 2006 and 2007 teams with more than `180 AB (the cutoff point for not counting Olmedo in 2006).

BFT's Yankees ZIPS projections are up...

Arod for 2008: 305/410/583 44hr 16sb

Rivera for 2008: 2.40era 75IP 3hr 14bb 66k

0 i like the lineup but would switch kemp & ethier's outfield positions.

I meant 5 seriously, as a question. I agree with the posts that follow and people know that I've endorsed the ARONS philosophy -- hell, I named it. But Nate Silver is a smart guy, and if there's a reasoned argument that the Dodgers shouldn't sign him, I'll listen. Does he believe that Rodriguez will not provide enough improvement over LaRoche? Why?

I don't see how one could say "Don't make a run at Alex Rodriguez." We don't have any idea what the market is going to be (though the entire free agent bonanza is probably going to be crazy). He's at least a month away from seriously entertaining offers, and nobody has signed anywhere yet.

Unless you just don't like Alex Rodriguez.

It seems there is no balance to the force today.

The following is an off topic public service announcement: If you have yet to install Adobe CS3 on a windows machine, be afraid, very afraid-- schedule at least 2 days of time to deal with it.

We should sign A-rod and Schilling and Bonds (while keeping Kent of course). That would be a great test for Torre. Maybe hire Sutton, Garvey, Valdez and Karros as coaches.

lol

45 Personally, I don't think ARod is an improvement for our team. Without stronger starting pitching throughout the season, it won't matter who is in our lineup. I believe in our youngsters, and think they are good enough, along with stronger pitching to get to the playoffs.

As for ARod, if he couldn't hit in the playoffs with what surrounded him in the Yankee lineup the last few years, why would anyone think he would do so for us?

42 I'm not overly impressed with that lineup either, but the Dodgers are far better off with Ethier than with Bradley, regardless of his .800 OPS. Clubhouse issues usually bore me, but Bradley was the worst kind of clubhouse cancer.

Calling it the dumbest trade since Delino/Pedro is to be pretty ignorant of recent Dodger history, which is filled with some truly bad deals.

I'd take a run at Schilling with an incentive laden contract, I'd do the same with Pettitte...one year each.

CF'ers who OPS 800+ don't grow on trees. You don't trade these type of players.

Why I think this was a good move:

Bradley 2006: 2.8 Warp1, $3millon
Bradley 2007: 3.3 Warp1, $4million

Ethier 2006: 2.8 Warp1, <$400k
Ethier 2007: 4.5 Warp1, <$400k

If you want to balance things out:

Antonio Perez 2006: -0.8 Warp1

When you consider salaries, Bradley's now in his contract year, and Ethier's a year away still from arbitration. Bradley would go for his free agent value on this market for 2008, when Ethier will produce similar results for around the league minimum.

Of course, if keeping Bradley would have prevented signing Pierre, that changes the whole thing, but that's speculation. But for what it's worth, Bradley played CF for 15 games after being traded from LA, and probably isn't that viable an option there after all the injuries he's had.

the current offer for rivera is 3@40 which would already make him the highest paid closer in the game, i doubt the yankees would blink before pushing that to 3@45 ... i'd think the only shot that the dodgers would have would be if Mo really wanted to re-unite with torre and really, since you've already got saito for dirt-cheap, is adding another closer, even if it is Mo, really worth that cost???

I surprised people see starting pitching as a weakness, especially relative to the league. Lowe should be better in '08 - he had some injury problems with his hip but he's usually very healthy. Penny should be able to replicate his year, or regress very slightly. Chad should be better and pitch more innings. Schmidt should provide 140 innings of above average work. Between McDonald, Loaiza and whoever else we sign, we should be able to fill out the rotation with a solid, reliable option.

51 pettite has stated that he will either pitch for the yankees this year or retire ... and that torre's decision and the change of managers will not factor into his decision ... as always with athletes, take things with a grain of salt, but pettite's never been like his buddy roger ...

49 The Dodgers were 4th in the NL in runs allowed last year. Are you saying it's impossible to win unless you finish in the top three? Top two? Two of the teams that finished ahead of us in that category, the Giants and the Padres, also missed the playoffs.

Signing Arod makes perfect sense. During his tenure he would break some of the most prestigious records in all of baseball. In his final years Dodger Stadium will be packed out every night waiting for the records to fall. This doesn't include all the wins and excitement he brings w/o the records. The 30 mill a year is easily recovered.

53 - Well, if we keep Rick Honeycutt, he can help keep Rivera's cutter sharp.

53 - No

I want to see Wolf back, rather than Schilling.

57 the stadium is always packed already

49 from jenkins screed in the SF Gate today:

" ... there's no other way to explain A-Rod's postseason performances. You probably know about his 4-for-47 slump and his streak of 14 games without an RBI, but this is the most telling stat: Since Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS - the night Boston began its epic comeback from three games down against the Yankees - Rodriguez has come to the plate with 38 runners on base, over the span of 59 at-bats. He left every single one on base, going 0-for-27, right through the Yanks' Division Series loss to Cleveland this month."

It's one thing to make the argument that the money spent on A-rod would be bad and should be spent elsewhere but to say he wouldn't help is a little crazy

Dude has averaged 128 runs, 34 doubles, 44hr, 128rbi with a .306 avg and .967ops in 11 seasons..Dude has missed 19 games since the 2000 season.

If Bradley for example only missed 19 games for each half a season it would good for him. Bradley was my personal dodger MVP in 2004. I don't buy into the clubhouse issues as much as others, but he just can't stay healthy which is his bigger problem for me anyways.

Also, Petit is not going anywhere. If he was he would be near the top of my list of players to go get.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071031&content_id=2289336&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

I think Schilling is a serious longshot to sign with the Dodgers. My money is on him playing out a one-year "farewell tour" with the Phillies.

49 That's fair, I suppose -- but who would you get? Bear in mind that the Dodgers' pitching was 10th in baseball last year overall -- 12th for starters and 10th for relievers. Yes, I'm aware that the pitching faded in the second half and that might be a sign of things to come... or it might be just that, a fade, and things will be fine in the spring. I don't know.

As for your second point, I think it's what A-Rod has done year after year in the regular season that makes people think that he will hit in the playoffs.

61 It'll be packed with fans paying higher ticket prices.

Rodriguez has come to the plate with 38 runners on base, over the span of 59 at-bats. He left every single one on base, going 0-for-27, right through the Yanks' Division Series loss to Cleveland this month

How every GM "negotiating" with Boras doesn't harp on this factoid is beyond me. Boras doesn't hesitate to cherry-pick small-sample-sized-stats to make his players look better than they are: GMs shouldn't hesitate to use the same tactics to make the players look worse.

47 What problem did you have? I installed the upgrade in about an hour and a half. Haven't gotten much time to really play with it, though. :(

I would only be interested in adding Pettite if he agreed to stop looking into the catcher for the sign in the manner that he is wont to do.

I hate that.

64 I'm gonna say Arizona for 2/28.

Schilling is soon-to-be 41 years old. If 35 means heading downslope, why should we think he's an exception? We can all think of lots of pitchers who suddenly lost their ability to get guys out; I'm not willing to bet a lot of money on that not happening to Schilling.

Does anyone else remember reading a quote/passage saying that Boras indicated the Dodgers weren't a preferred destination for A-Rod, and he wanted them to sign Andruw Jones instead?

In the massive volume of A-Rod/Dodger/Torre/Boras articles in the last few days, I can't remember where I picked that up from. But I do remember reading it.

A-Rod could go 0 fer every playoff series, and I'd still want him. He's worth double digit wins every year.

Get in the playoffs and let the chips fall where they may.

72 http://tinyurl.com/27p3gk

As a power hitter and third baseman, Rodriguez would fill two areas targeted for upgrades. But Boras is believed to consider the Dodgers a more serious contender for center fielder Andruw Jones than for Rodriguez.

72 If the Dodgers sign Andruw Jones, they deserve to be sent down to Davy Jones.

Who knows what evil lurks in Andruw Jones's locker?

74 Muchas gracias.

Boras makes it sound like the Dodgers aren't good enough for A-Rod. Man, I can't stand that guy.

73
But as a GM, you shouldn't approach the contract negotiations that way. You gotta go in harping on ARod's lack of Clutchitude and Octoberocity, and how he shouldn't get paid as much as Boras wants him to.

76
Bob laughs in your general direction. Course, he's wearing a Ham Fighter jersey today, so you can go ahead and laugh right back.

76 I could drive over to Boras' office, knee him in the stones and pick up a sandwich during my lunch break.

78
I'm wearing no such jersey.

I'm wearing a jersey that reads "Nippon Ham."

78 he's wearing a Ham Fighter jersey

Don't let him hear you say that.

way too slow.

I'm proudly wearing for the 1st time my Fernando jersey along with my 81 Championship hat at my companies Halloween party. I've been a big hit with the manufacturing group.
desea Fernando vivo

I stubbornly don't believe Andru Jones is done, and that this was an anomaly. You can stone me at dawn but I'll stake Andrew's reputation that whoever takes the chance on Andru is going to be happy with the results.

73 it gets old rather quickly, as does being an a-rod defender in a sea of gibbering detractors, torn between wanting him to get his chances to produce with the game in the balance and dreading those moments if he doesn't come through yet again ...

that being said ... this year's a-rod's struggles during the ALDS really seemed different to me than the last couple of years ... he was very close to clicking ... he was missing his pitches, no doubt, but he was just off a fraction and having good at-bats ... every game he seemed to be getting closer to going beserk and having the kind of stretch where he could hit anyone and anything ... i think that if the yanks could have gotten to boston, he might have had the kind of series to erase the past and the doubts

or he could have tightened up under the added pressure of having to play the hated-foes, who knows, but i don't think he has some sort of permanent mental block that keeps him from performing in the post-season ... i think he just needs to get that 1st big hit again and things will be better than fine ... time will tell, i suppose

84
I'm in the other camp. I want nothing to do with Andruw Jones. Actually, I guess I'd be fine swapping him with Pierre straight up, but that's not an option.

85 yeah, he doesn't have a mental block about it, he just can't do it period...and just missing his pitches, that is the difference between him and Ortiz

I'd love to see the Dodgers do this... No to Arod's a good idea.

85 Being an A-Rod defender is very easy, since he will probably go down as Top-5 all time. And writing his playoff epitaph right now seems, well, a tad premature.

A lot of people don't like the guy, and constantly harping on his recent playoff performance seems the equivalent of poking him with a stick. Barry Bonds didn't do it in the playoffs either, until he did.

How could anyone not want A-Rod on their team? How can anyone point to his limited post-season struggles" as a reason to not want him?

He performs at the highest level under the microscope all year, every year. EVERY player slumps at times. Some of his have come during some postseason games. His team wouldn't have been in the postseason if he didn't make MAJOR contributions to put them there. In 2004, he was 7 for 16 after the first four games.

If you don't want to pay him, or you don't want to deal with Boras, or anything like that, then you have a legitimate opinion about the matter. I resepectfully disagree, but you can hold your postion with some substance behind your thinking. If you are simply saying you don't want him because of a short period slump, or that he isn't a great player, then you simply don't follow the game with your eyes open.

We are talking about the Henry Aaron or Babe Ruth of the 21st Century. The absolute best player available with a very productive past. He's in his prime. He is a 3 time MVP with more likely to come. He's worth $30 million per year. At least. If you don't take a shot at signing him without giving up more than a few draft picks, who is a better player to pursue? Nobody.

89 I never understand this. I don't LIKE Bonds, or A-Rod, but I don't know them and I don't have to like them.

The only thing that's important is that I recognize that I'm watching a hell of a ballplayer when I see them play.

89 who exactly was writing his playoff epitaph right now ... not i ... barry bonds' 2002 post-season is the type of stretch that a-rod is capable of

as for the ease of defending a-rod, well, i'll just say you'll find it trickier than you think, he's on the short list of best players i'll ever see play in my lifetime ... but, wow, does he have a talent for saying and doing headscratching things ... add to that his less-than-pleasant reputation to the average fan(this is now the 3rd set of fans that loathe him), the mercenary reputation (he gets bonus point for being the highest paid player, so pass GO and collect $200 worth of player-salary hatin') and the "ewing theory" factor where the teams he leaves get better and yup, you spend a lot of time trying to bring the conversation back to the great things he does on the field ...

and that discussion, of course, always returns to production in the post-season ... never mind that often he's the difference between making the post-season or not ...

in the end, a-rod controls his own destiny ... have a post-season like BLB's 2002 and this all goes away (except for the couldn't-do-this-in-new-york crackpots) ... but i wonder what happens if a-rod doesn't hit in his first post-ny post-season and it all starts up again in his new home ...

31 I didn't realize Scott Boras was a poster here at DT

Arod already did it once.
http://www.joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/
It is just since the "contract" he's had trouble.

90
I would think that would be a banning offense.

93
Some of us like to like the player we root for.

90 96 no kidding

So the Furcal thing is some kind of joke? Thanks for wasting my time. Was that funny to anyone?

96 And so it is.

InsidetheDodgers is shut down right now, so their resident trolls are coming over here to play.

A-Rod is not universally disliked like Barroid. He is sort of like De La Hoya in that he's too rich, too pretty, and too good to have people not resent him.

Nomar is one of the nicest guys I've seen interviewed. He always signs autographs. And grounds out on the first pitch.

I want to like the players I cheer for also. A-Rod is not BLB nor is he Meltdown Badley material. He's a great player with a great demeanor. Just because he's not Derek Jeter-like in that loveable way doesn't make him evil.

My vote is still in favor of chasing him to the end. He can only make us a much better team. Instantly.

101

Can you stop playing your pan flute and lead them into the lake already?

101 It is holloween.

94 What was Boras like about that, it's true? If Billy Ashley was coming up right now, I wouldn't care at all about him.

51 I agree with you on those two guys. I don't think you can ever have too much pitching with the way injuries go these days. I don't see either of those guys blocking any young pitching from coming up if they have a 1-2 year contract. The worst thing that can happen is a situation where Kershaw is rushed up due to injury. Let that kid develop and ease into the role like Billingsley was allowed to. I have to say that they have done right by Billingsley and given him the best chance at success.

Just posted on Lakersground:

"670 The score B & B
48 hours for approval
- This is above Paxson's head right now
- Lakers are sick of Kobe and want him gone now. Were amazed he got booed so badly last night

Here's the deal:
- Does not involve Deng
- Does involve (best info at the moment) Kirk Hinrich
- 3rd team is the Kings
- Artest Going to Lakers

Also said Phx Was involve as a 3rd team but back off.
Kings getting involve."

How does this help the Lakers again?
Hinrich/Artest for Kobe?

Lakers are sick of Kobe

Took'em long enough.

I must say Joey you sure know how to incite the inmates. Did you bother to look at the writeup I did on Orenduff and his surgery? You got top billing.

Less is more, BUT "Sources say Torre would not take this job unless McCourt promised to bring in a big-hitting third baseman, and Torre has told folks that Rodriguez could be the one."

I'm with sporky, give wolf another shot. he's cheap enough. I really really don't like schilling, not someone I can root for and he's getting up there. had a great career, but...no.
I think silver is spot on. go after a pitcher for more depth. I understand going after a rod but don't think he's worth all the gold.give la roche a shot.
alas, we know how much dodgers mgmt can't resist tinkering like obsessive compulsive kids with money, so it seems unlikely.

107
I do not buy it for a second. What use is Artest with no Kobe? Artest and Odom is hardly much of a combo. Plus, the Lakers drafted point guards in consecutive years. I know Hinrich is good, but it makes our last drafts wastes.

We need to get more front court depth, such as Tyrus Thomas and that jerk Noah.

107- That sounds pretty bad.

Hey, Sporky, you need to fix your definition at urbandictionary.com:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sporky

111
I hate Schilling, but if I can root for Lowe and Kent, two guys I hated, then I can root for him. I just want the best team we can possibly get.

Definitely agree about Wolf and I think most of us have been saying that for awhile.

I want Gilbert Arenas.

I want a pony.

I want to coach a Filipina bikini team.

107 there comes a point where no matter how great a player is, he isn't worth putting up with...

he gets in trouble with a girl, the team sticks with him...he says get rid of Shaq or else, and they do...he comes out in the offseason saying trade me, I'll play anywhere but here, they say he needs more supporting cast...Buss says yeah, we talked about him being traded, he is betrayed, how could anyone do this to him...

enough already...

damn I always miss the banned posts. btw, should say that I think a rod is a tremendous player and wouldn't kick him out of the dodger bed for eating crackers. but I do like laroche. maybe one of them could play 2nd at some point.

120
LaRoche in left, Kemp in center, Ethier in right?

I just hope the Lakers dont take back any bad contracts if they do trade Kobe.

Let Kobe opt out of his deal if need be.

I want peace on earth, goodwill to all

I want to be the lifeguard at the Playboy Mansion.

I don't want Schilling. Period. Odalis Perez just got bought out. I'd prefer to watch him pitch again before Schilling in Dodger blue.

Curt can go suck up to W some more. He should pitch for the Nationals.

114 "n. overcaffeinated, underpaid lab rat; part-time tomboy"

urbandictionary.com scares me, but that might be from the trauma of learning what a dirty sanchez is.

120 You missed nothing. Really.

125
If you do not want players that root for W, we would probably have like 7 players on our roster.

122
If they do, then Kupchak really should be fired.

111 I am not sure about Wolf at all. But I have no problem rooting for Schilling. He is a blowhard, but the guy knows how to pitch and can pitch in the big spots.

125
127
Que es "W"?

The thing about getting a bunch of players back for Kobe is that we already have a full roster. If we do a 5 for 1, we would need to get rid of 4 players on the roster.

Nevermind

Quantity for quality never works. They need some quality back.

I mean they need quantity quality.

130 - Schilling was shilling for George II post-2004. It annoyed many people (myself included) who used to think he was smarter than that.

131 and if the 5 we get back are any good, you can't find 4 on our current roster to get rid of? if that is the case, then we are pretty good and we shouldn't trade Kobe

131
Colby Karl, Sasha, Brian Cook, and then a raffle.

131

That's exactly what I don't want. It's only fair to get another good young player in return, or even two; but 5 bench guys... hey we already have a bench!

actually, Kobe did say he'd play anywhere but here, even Pluto, so trade him to the Croatian national team...he'll like it over there

The Dodgers fulfill their obligation to interview a minority candidate for their manager job:

"So, Dusty, would you like to come talk about the manager job?"

"Huh? I've already signed with Cincinnati."

"That's why you're the perfect man to interview!"

Getting equal value for Kobe is impossible, just like it was for Shaq.

I'd rather have the cap space, than more marginal average players.

Sports chat and political chat go together like cheese and genocide.

142

Hmm... a trade for some Draft picks might work for me. Might as well shoot for the future, right?

btw, does anyone else know that Big Baby went to the Celtics? As if they needed more good talent...

143 - oops, you're right, that was a rule 5 violation.

142 yes, draft picks would be great, we could use one on a guy like Oden

141
I wonder if Ned thinks Italians are minorities.

144
They also got Pruitt.

143 I'm just bitter my party never gets any pub. When we can talk Whigs, it's all good.

Go Whigs!

143
It is quips like this one that made me park here over ITD and others.

I am a fan of cheese.

Not a fan of genocide.

Would letting Kobe walk really free up that much cap space, or would it finally just put them at the cap, rather than the perennial over?

I remember when he opted out a few years ago, the writers were saying that the Lakers wouldn't really have more money to play with if Kobe bailed, they'd just pay less luxury tax, or none.

142 - So you'd prefer to just put up with Kobe for another year and have him opt out?

154
It would free up money, plus Odom would be gone too.

The problem is that most good free agents are re-signing with their own teams, because that is how they can get the most money.

153 So Tracy predicts hanging Banner No. 12.

Never has the 50 or so yards between Pauley Pavillion and Spaulding Field (football practice) seemed any farther apart.

154 - The Lakers are at $62.9M this year. The cap is about $55M.

Kobe makes $23M and $24M in 09/10 and 10/11 (the years he would opt out of). They'd have Bynum to lock up after 09/10.

157
Last week I said we were going to do it. This is probably the most confident I have been about a team I root for.

But if it does not happen, blame Tracy and not me.

154 that was probably Plaschke

156 - Yeah Odom would be gone after next year as well, and he makes $14.5M next year.

So, yeah, they'd have significant cap room after the 08/09 season. And Wade, Lebron, and a few others just signed short extensions, rather than the full length ones that were available to them (Wade can opt out after 09/10; Lebron the next season after that)...

Asking as the most casual fan of pro basketball, is this Bynum character going to be, you know, actually really good?

Because keeping him seems to have caused a great deal of this.

162 if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else...Kobe just wanted out, but won't own up to it

162
I think he's going to be good. His biggest problem (in the box score, at least) seems to be picking up a lot of fouls. But that's to be expected for young players in such a biased-officiating league.

I'm speechless...

"The New York Post gossip page has a stunner today. One of their bar spies says Ashley Olsen, 21 years old, was sitting on Lance Armstrong's lap and making out with him all night at a Manhattan nightspot"

159 I'll have to see what else is out there but given that there has been only one team that has beaten them in the NCAA in the last two years and all their players are gone, my guess is that they are as good as anyone.

162 Shall I email you the ticket for Friday?

162
I think he will be good, but I do not think he will be as good as Jim Buss thinks he will be. He seems to be convinced that Bynum can be a franchise player.

162 163 kind of like, on a smaller scale, Kent going off on the youngsters last season...he isn't up to the task so he lashes out at others

is anyone else thoroughly shocked that no NBA Gm's understand how to work their own salary cap?

165 - I just hope that whoever was riding was wearing a helmet.

Okay, I'm not sure that joke works, but I'm giving it a shot.

169
RC Buford in San Antonio does. He has it set up so that in a year (or maybe two) that all he has under contract is Parker, Duncan, and Ginobli, so he will have tons of money to spend.

168 But Kent isn't currently one of the top 3-5 players in his sport (arguably the best).

170
It kinda works if you think about it in the dirtiest way.

Did Jon just work blue?

172 he is if you ask him

170 I hope your kids don't watch Full House, oops maybe you would toss out the TV if that ever happened.

Scareduck, do you think that Nate Silver's prediction that the Angels have a 50/50 shot of landing A-Rod and Bonds is true and secondly, do you like either of those potential signees for the Angels?

166 Sure!

If Armstrong was reading this blog, he might say "That's it. I'm taking my ball and going home".

I want what I want - when I want it.

178
I was waiting for the one ball joke.

169 - It's a tough situation. The NBA is the only league that has a cap and guaranteed contracts. And with the contract lengths and amounts pretty much pre-determined (based on the player's tenure) it's way too easy to go over the cap trying to improve your team.

San Antonio's international scouting is pretty key to their success. They can bring in older NBA-ready players while picking basically last every year. They are also over the cap though too. At least they have rings to show for it.

I was waiting for the one ball joke

And the "twins in his pants" joke

I think is getting ready to loosen his rules with the influx of Bronx Banters coming over to occasionally comment on our projected New Yorker invasion.

The Reds exercised Adam Dunn's option for next year.

183 I forget the key word Jon

Moises Alou had his picked up too.

184 Before anyone starts trade rumors, Dunn now has full no-trade clause until June.

I just turned the page on my Dodgers calendar and November and December are combined with a giant picture of Grady. He has a big smile on his face too.

I can't imagine he'll ever get another big league manager's position.

187 I think interest in him is, well, done

187
So our trade rumors need to involve Dunn waiving his full no-trade clause before June. Got it.

bynum's no franchise player but he sure is looking better to me each time I see him. of course they need him to step it up this season for them to move forward. the lakers need to keep kobe if they can't get top notch players in return. and a draft pick. and two hard boiled eggs. (honk)

Even though Josh Bell is having a dismal HWB season he gets a nice write up at BA about what he's trying to improve on.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospects/features/265094.html

188
Is it the Panda Express calendar they gave out in 2006?

If so, the dates for November and December on that calendar are wrong.

The whole Lakers/Kobe fiasco is so boring. Who cares where the adulterer and possible rapist makes his millions in the near future?

Portland learned their lesson and so did Indiana. Get the thugs out of town, you can only improve your team along with your image.

You won't get good value in return for Kobe, but you'll be rid of your problem. Treat him like the orgin of his name - like a piece of meat.

As a Clippers fan, I'm glad he didn't sign with us. I want the Elton Brands of the world to cheer for, not A.I.s or Kobes or Artests.

193 It is the Panda Express calendar. The dates seem right to me. Where is there a mistake?

194 Ouch.

A.I. isn't a thug.

The rest, I disagree with, but to each his own.

195
Match up the dates to the days of the week.

The one I got was off by a day for both months so I threw it out.

197 Mine seems to be fine. You must have gotten the Bill Murray version.

I think I had a different one and I think November and December were JD Drew and Nomar Garciaparra.

It also had November 1 as being a Wednesday.

If it's true that you need multiple superstars to win in the NBA, isn't trading Kobe just going to destroy your franchise?

This is coming from someone who knows nothing about basketball.

196 A.I. isn't a thug? He threw his naked wife out of the house while holding a gun.

When the tattoos start getting up your neck, they generally mean something.

Maybe he's just a misunderstood soul.

194 I guess thugs do well for the general public since Kobe Bryant's jersey is number one in sales. At best he was charged with a crime but it did not even go to trial and fans are more upset about the on-the-court issues than off-the-court issues with Kobe anyway.

If you want to root for Elton Brand, great, he is a wonderful player and from what I can see, a good guy. But Kobe remains a favorite of mind, warts and all, and I will be sad if he doesn't finish his career as a Laker.

199 Mine has JD Drew by himself with January and February.

Depends on what you define superstar as? The Piston won and I wouldn't have charactarized Billips, Hamilton, Prince, or Wallace as superstars.

202
Hopefully you become very sad very soon.

192 & delwyn young is batting a crisp .778 while playing left field.

202 No offense intended to you bh, I'm not a Kobe fan so I can't understand his appeal to NBA fans myself. I was a big Michael Jordan fan and wouldn't want him to leave the Bulls during the prime years of his career. But Mike didn't behave the same way, nor did he embarass himself quite the same way as Kobe did.

AI's has had felony gun charges against him, along with serving prison time when he was 17yrs old for his role in a brawl at a bowling alley.

His "It's practice man...practice" rant is still priceless.

205 I'll get over it. Do you want to see an exhibition game (UCLA) on Monday night?

Nate Silver has an update. Free for all.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=653

204--They had an above average player at each position: Billups, Rip, Prince, Wallace, Wallace.

Just imagine how stacked that team would have been had Dumars drafted Wade/Anthony instead of Darko.

206
Mostly DH so far. He's been the big guy for Team USA. Slacked off yesterday and only got one hit.

204 - Kind of the exception to the rule, though. They beat the Karl Malone-era Lakers, but otherwise you have Duncan's Spurs, Kobe/Shaq's Lakers, Shaq/Wade's Heat, Jordan's Bulls, Olajuwan's Rockets, etc. all the way back to the 80s.

207 - Michael was a rampant adulterer, bigtime gambler, quit on his team at the peak of his career, and never met a product he wouldn't schill for. I would say he was fortunate his career pre-dated the internet.

Man, a lot of turbulence in here today. Must be Halloween.

211
Then they would have had the superstar. Crazy draft, the Clippers fell one man short of Wade.

210 - What happened to Juan Pierre in Scenario B? We signed Aaron Rowand, and Pierre just went away?

If mentioned already, I missed it but Odem was in car accident yesterday morning that sent one person to the hospital. He was not hurt. He saves getting hurt for the basketball court.

213
True, just saying it can be done without superstars but everyone better be above average.

217 - I read he got a concussion. Not sure how severe it was.

216
Rowand with a 40 VORP? Will be curious if he comes close to that.
Yes, Nate just has Juan going away. If only life was so simple. You can eat one or two but no one will ever will eat 4 years and have a job.

213 Jordan was loved and respected. He still is. He was never accused of a crime, nor did he demand to be traded or request that others be traded. He was about giving his all on the court and winning. Accepting nothing less from himself or others around him. People weren't interested in attacking him the way they did/do Kobe. He just didn't bring it upon himself, he had far more class than Kobe.

216

Yea I thought the same thing. I WISH it was that easy to make Juan Pierre disappear.

Ka-zam!

209
Can't, but thanks for the offer.

202 - MJ was one of the most media protected athletes of the 20th century. When his then girlfriend was pregnant with their first child, no reports were made about it until after they were married. It wasn't until very late in his career when talk came out about the millions he'd drop in Vegas over a weekend (when the Bulls played the Jazz in the Finals, MJ and Rodman would get hotel rooms in Vegas rather than stay in Salt Lake City). And MJ's try at baseball was rather embarrassing, I think.

I'm a huge mark for Kobe, I'll admit. I think he's the best player in the world right now and it is an absolute joke that the Lakers are willing to waste his prime while refusing to rebuild around him. On top of that, I don't know what happened to Jerry Buss lately, but really, the collapse of the Lakers the last few years falls on him - he let West walk, he was the one who wanted Shaq traded when Shaq sought a max extension, and now he feels betrayed by Kobe because Kobe wants good players around him.

As far as the Dodgers tragic-comedy goes, I think it's time to recognize that the ownership is suffering from some sort of ADD. I wasn't expecting them to show the kind of loyalty that the O'Malleys use to show (or at least that the legends claim they showed), nor the indifference that Fox showed, but micromanagement when you don't know what you want is absolutely nuts.

221 - The league and the media looked the other way on a lot of Jordan-related activities, whether gambling or adultery. I think it's a matter of whom you choose to believe on things like this.

210 I'm not putting too much faith in that because of his mighty optimistic projections for Rowand and Schilling. Schilling has exceeded 40 VORP once in the last three years and is 41. Rowand has done it twice in his career, coincidentally right before he's gotten a new contract. The other years include VORPs of 14, 7, and 8. Meanwhile he expects A-Rod to drop by about 25 points in VORP next year. It seems like he jiggled the numbers around to make his point work, and he ignored the issue of Juan Pierre in his second team.

226 - A 25 VORP for LaRoche seems a bit high as well. Kouzmanoff had a .275 eqa in >530 PA's, and only VORP'd 18.6 this year.

221 Oh, there were rumors, gambling, indidelity and the like but Jordan was and is such a huge corporate icon that a lot of that remains just under the radar. Also, his Washington experience and player evaluation talent (Kwame Brown) did not stain his great career but has taken him down a little bit.

When athletes are great, I mean at the top of their game, fans, media, sponsors want it all, they want their Magics, Jordans, Tiger Woods, Peyton Mannings that can be seen in the best light and be marketed accordingly.

When you have the pereceived loners, sour pusses, into themselves, selfish, but no question great athletes like A-Rod and Kobe, it causes issues because you want to root for them but you also want them to be likeable.

I am sure both do many charitable things, etc., we want them joking with Dave and Jay, appearing on skits on TV, selling shoes or cars, etc.

I guess it always be that way but I don't think an athlete should have to do anything but do his best on the playing field.

224
Give me a break. Kobe only re-upped after the Shaq deal. He knew what he would be working with. He knew about the Grant contract. The only thing that changed was the Kwame for Butler deal. At the time he felt he was good enough to make it work. Sure they could have traded Bynum for Kidd, do you really think Kidd and Kobe in 2007 would have made the difference? Doubtfully, he made his bed, woke up one day and didn't like the bed and now wants another one.

221 Kobe also gives his all on the court and for winning. He also accepts nothing less from himself or others around him. What does what other people think have to do with your opinion on a player? Yes, Kobe made the trade demands, so if you hate him for that, fine. But being accused of something doesn't make somebody guilty. I just find that Kobe sort of has the A-Rod hate going for him. Often there's a good reason, but it seems like a lot of people hate the guy just because.

Anyway I don't want him to leave because the Lakers wouldn't get fair value out of it. And I like watching him play. And I've watched him play since he was a rookie.

A.I. has had his problems but he's had a better track record the last few years. He also did more than his part for team USA in 2004. Maybe he's still a thug, fine. I don't pay too much attention.

I suppose I'm one to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway, talking about the NBA and the Lakers here probably isn't the best idea, since I seem to be in the minority.

Arizona ate 2.5 for Ortiz but I think that guy is gone.

ESPN is reporting that the Lakers-Bulls-Kings deal has fallen through. The Lakers would have gotten Ben Wallace and Ron Artest (what a horrid deal that would have been).

212 thanks for the clarification. i'd love to be a fly on the wall during our organizational discussions about d. young. i think he's perfectly suited to be our 4th outfielder next year, and maybe even more.

OMG!!!

That three way trade is dead and the Lakers were going to get Artest and Ben Wallace.

Worst trade ever!!!! I have zero faith now that the Lakers are going to make a good trade.

229 speaking of beds, he has several, but only got caught once

Did anyone else see this:

Colletti said. "We've had some conversations with [Torre] very recently. We do not have an agreement. We've got other people we've got under consideration. We're in the process of compiling a list. Once we get a list, we'll go from there. We're taking it day by day."

Huh? "We'll go from there." "Day by day." I really hope "Ned The Character Guy" is lying because I would hate to think they eliminated Grady without a back-up plan. I suppose it could be a negotiation ploy but aren't we a little far down the road for that. The way these people do business amazes me. Do they try to create the impression they are disorganized and inept or are they really just that way.

224 Jordan was doing reasonably well towards th end of his minor league career, IIRC. Small sample size of course.

229 Well a lot of people think the Kwame for Butler deal is why the Lakers are in the hole they're in now. And I agree. Butler probably needed to go, but getting only Kwame out of it hurt.

That would be funny if the Lakers ended up with Artest, the only other player in the NBA that my wife won't go watch play for her teams.

237 I mean to say that people think the Kwame-Butler deal is the bigger mistake than the Shaq trade.

236 penny has some interesting quotes in that article as well. he expects to see some new players coming in.

How in the world does anyone consider trading for Ben Wallace, let alone in the West.

236
I don't know why that would bother you. It just proves that Torre was not the reason Grady is no longer the Dodger manager. Managers are a dime a dozen, I'd be more then thrilled if Torre turns us down.

241 I have as much faith in the Lakers FO as I do in Colletti.

230 I hear the passion in your post and can respect your position. As a fan, and that is what we are to them at best, we make their lives and importance to society possible. Somehow, the teams we follow become part of us and we can get hurt and defensive when we see things differently. I do not intend any ill will towards any Laker fans, I just don't like the image or public behavior of Kobe.

Perhaps Kobe is as good as it gets in the sport today, he certainly can make exciting plays on the court. As a Laker fan, I wouldn't want to give him away.

But since I'm not a Laker fan, I don't know how others process all of this. I just don't see Kobe in the same light, as a superstar like no other. Plus, I think his whining and the trip to Colorado stained his reputation. I was quite surprised he was booed last night. But not entirely. His act has gotten old to many. I think he won't be long for the purple and gold. I don't see him lasting much longer.

229 - the Lakers, at least through out my lifetime (almost 30 years now), have been all about winning - they drafted well, they were always willing to get the best free agents - and I think Kobe had every right to believe that the Lakers would continue with that tradition. Instead, they've sat on a mediocre roster that does not work well with the system that they run (the team probably would have been much better if Rudy T doesn't resign because of health issues, because they were built well to be a run and gun team).

Josh Rawitch is back and all but certified Tim Brown's story from yesterday.

http://insidethedodgers.mlblogs.com/my_weblog/2007/10/what_a_way_to_c.html

Why would the Lakers only want Artest and Wallace?

236 - Maybe they need to get a minority candidate in.

243
I honestly have less faith in the Lakers front office now than I do in Colletti.

Because of a rumor or because of past history?

Chicago can offer Gordon, Noah, Tyrus Thomas, and Andres Nocioni on December 15th. That's what I would take, if Chicago is claiming that Deng is a deal-breaker.

236 is referencing Gurnick's article:
http://tinyurl.com/33y26q

240 I raised an eyebrow at Penny's quote:
"I'm kind of excited about it," said Penny. "I don't think they would get him and I don't think he would come unless they were going to go out and get players. He's going to want to win. He's been in an organization where he's won for so long, he knows a lot about winning."

I wonder what positions Penny thinks need to be improved by "get[ting] players"?

Ned is in such a good situation, that I do not think he even he can completely screw up. The Dodgers have a good chance to get better.

The Lakers do not have this luxury.

249 I can understand that because Darth has Kim and Logan at least.

244 Thanks. I feel like Kobe's often misunderstood the way A-Rod is. The "fake," quiet persona. I think he was mistreated a lot in his early years by Shaq (ironically, he seems to be treating Bynum the same way, which is annoying) and even Phil.

I can also understand his frustration with the ineptitude of the Lakers management (which is Colletti-like, except without Kim and Logan).

251
I know that the Lakers have very little luck with "athletes" rather than cerebral basketball players (Odom, Kwame), but I got to see Ty Thomas a couple of years ago at LSU during their Final Four season.

That guy is an absolute freak. Built like Marcus Camby but much quicker and with about 6 extra inches on his vertical. Seeing him in person was like going to the Grand Canyon. If you haven't seen it, you just can't do it justice.

Now, if he can actually learn to play the game a little...

246 Saw that, not sure what that all means though. Seems like Grady was flip flopping and Ned finally decided he had to have a back up plan in case Grady decided he had enough.

So somewhere in the speculation whether or not Ned was making offers to Girardi and now Torre, it appears that Ned was still waiting for Grady and vice versa to make a decision about next season and maybe all that combined with Grady's gut telling him he did not really want to manage right now led to this decision.

255 That's exactly what people said about Stromile Swift. The problem with having to learn the game is that you have to learn the game.

Easier said than done. Swift never did.

255 - They may not want to do both Noah and Thomas, but geez if they won't include Deng then everyone else should be available.

Deng is a nice player, but if Chicago said "absolutely no Deng" I would want my pick of any other combination of players that matched salaries. And I would get it for Kobe.

The ridiculous un-whistled blatant hook Jordan pulled off on Byron Russell tainted the 97 championship for me. How fitting it was that two of the dirtiest teams in the league squared off for that title that year.

257 - That's why you get Noah too, who is much more "heady" than Thomas, but a safer bet with a lower ceiling. One of those two will turn into a reliable PF.

251 I would take that too. The Lakers need an infusion of talent, so they might as well get a very good player (Gordon) and some talent that has the potential to be very good. You take the gamble that you end up better, long-term.

I don't get why the Lakers are pushing so hard to make a deal for Kobe right now. They've got until the trade deadline next year to make a deal for him. I'd rather look to move Odom, Brown, Cook, and probably Sasha and Radmonovich.

FWIW ... i give you steven goldman's take on torre to LA:

JOE TORRE DELAYS HIS HALL OF FAME INDUCTION UNTIL AT LEAST 2016
There haven't been a lot of successful managers in Torre's age group, pretty much just Connie Mack, Casey Stengel and Jack McKeon. Joe could easily join that group if he stays engaged-His "Father Knows Best" façade could seamlessly become "Grandpa Knows Best." Of course, Grandpa also has to make the correct choices. One of the reasons that Grady Little is no longer the Dodgers manager is that he loved his vets a little too much, and wouldn't or couldn't make the shift to James Loney, Matt Kemp, Andre Ethier, and Chad Billingsley until it was a bit too late. He never did get there cleanly, perhaps because GM Ned Colletti was similarly ambivalent. Still, there was the reek of indecision around the franchise. In 30 years of managing, Torre has been the exact same guy, in no hurry to make changes, more comfortable with the known over the unknown. Give Torre a team with a solid spine and he'll push the right buttons, keep the players on-mission, and generally stay out of the way. When he has to sort among different options, he struggles. You can find countless examples of this throughout his career going back to Lee Mazzilli (is he an outfielder? Is he a first baseman? Is he a duck?) and Brett Butler (sent back to the minors under Torre in 1982 after Bobby Cox had established him in the bigs in 1981). The Dodgers farm system, supplied by Assistant GM Logan White, has been popping, and the manager of the Dodgers will constantly be faced by these Darwinian decisions, Player A vs. Player B. Torre's worst qualities could be accentuated in Los Angeles. Juan Pierre or the tiger?

249

Theres still some light of hope in my view of the Dodgers front office, plus we have so much young talent the front office COULDN'T POSSIBLY screw things up!

Well, now Kobe is stating that he wants to be traded to the Bulls but only in any deal that does not include Deng. Meanwhile, Magic Johnson said there is no trade to the Bulls without Deng included in the package (Hoopshype/Rumors).

Laughable.
vr, Xei

257
I'm not sure if he will ever be a real difference maker, but his physical tools are just like Garnett's.

If he is in the deal, the Lakers would have a "sky's the limit" type. It would show just how good of a coach Jackson and his assistants are.

265 - When did Deng become such a prized commodity? He's good but geez, let's keep ahold of reality here. Let them keep Deng and raid the roster for everyone else. Everyone's happy.

264 - I'm just not very confident in the Dodgers front office. I just get the sense that they are going to do something incredibly stupid. I don't know what it is, but I still wouldn't be surprised to see a Kemp-Figgins deal, or Mike Lowell signed to play third and Nomar being deemed the first baseman because of his PVL.

Give Torre a team with a solid spine and he'll push the right buttons, keep the players on-mission, and generally stay out of the way

Give Torre the team with the biggest payroll comprised of great players, and the team does well.

Was the Yankees young core (Jeter, Rivera, Williams, Posada, Pettite) already established when Torre took over in '95? Seems like he was the one who had to integrate those young guys in with guys like O'Niel and Martinez. Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

270 O'Neil

270 ...or was '96 Torre's first year?

Ahh, nothing like getting a posting trifecta off your own mistakes.

272. Don't worry about the mistakes, we all make them. I understood the first post. Plus Bob is busy in meetings all afternoon. :)
vr, Xei

Well, it's been fun today, but got to get ready to go to the Kings game tonight. Regular season hockey, yes, I am desperate for sports.

Posada didn't come around until the '98 team. Jeter was a rookie in '96. Everyone else was already there in '95.

Bernie/Posada/Jeter in '98 (and beyond) was the closest they came to a "homegrown" lineup.

I seem to recall from the time of the Shaq trade that NBA rules require that players be traded for comparable worth in salaries, i.e., no salary dumps. The Lakers do seem to be caught in the mediocrity trap now, so maybe shaking things up will help. I have to be awfully skeptical, though, about filling up with Eastern Conference players.

The Yankees that won the consecutive World Series were built around system grown players in the pre-free agency phase of their careers. It was only after those players became eligible for free agency and the veterans showed their age that the Yankees started to try to stay on top through the checkbook alone.

And which one of these versions are we to believe:

>> When the meeting was over, Little went home to North Carolina with the impression Colletti would rather he not return, but would have him back because he was under contract for 2008, the option for which was exercised in March. Colletti believed Little would take two weeks to consider his future with the Dodgers. By the end of three weeks, when he hadn't heard from Little, Colletti began the process of identifying a potential replacement, turning first to Girardi, whom he knew when both were employed by the Chicago Cubs. <<

http://tinyurl.com/yv5ld2

## "There's a lot of belief out there that I've been dealt an injustice here," Little said. "That couldn't be further from the truth. Ned and I have been in constant communication privately since the end of the season and we mutually decided that this was the best direction for the Dodger organization to take." ##

http://tinyurl.com/398aya

Wow, Mariano Rivera started 10 games in 1995. He became a fulltime reliever in '96 behind Wetteland.

273
I ceased caring when I realized that my own posts on The Griddle were riddled with typos and one headline had the word "lastest" in it for two days before anyone complained.

276 - As best as I can tell only Jeter, Bernie, Pettitte and Rivera were homegrowns from the beginning (joined by Posada in '98). They've always imported players (Cone, Tino, O'Neil, Brosius, Boggs). It wasn't until Giambi that they started buying the best players available.

277
I would believe the one that Camille Johnston did not talk to beforehand...

One of the reasons I stopped reading the Griddle is because it was riddled with errors all the time. It was too exhausting to correct them all. I'm KIDDING. :-)

276
Salaries have to be within 15% of each other.

Good organizations build from within. Promote from within. Have a long-term plan as a backbone. Augment the backbone with a little here and there.

We have the makings of that starting with the farm system and the front office combo of Ng and L White.

A good organization doesn't sweep clubhouse guys and such regularly. A good organization doesn't say the grass is always greener every couple of years at the manager or GM spot.
A good organization grooms successers and plans for youth to move into lineups.

What's frustrating here is that thanks to Evans and Logan White, we're halfway there.
We keep messing things up with the new new thing, like a kid who needs Ritilan.

any of you guys seen any funny/original costumes today for halloween?

285 Not too original, but a co-worker came in dressed as Tigger.

285. Not yet, not too many people dress up at work here. The tough part will be convincing my 3-year old that she can't eat all the candy that she collects tonight.
vr, Xei

285 I was at a party on Saturday where a guy was dressed as blue man tobias. Fake moustache, completely blue body, jorts, etc.

287 - Is your three year old into it? Mine was excited up until today, but I was barely able to get him to wear his costume to school, and seems disinterested in trick or treating.

282
The Griddle has become more popular with Bronx Banter readers and I get more hits now.

I'm up from 40 to 45 per day.

288
Fantastic.

285 - We just had a building evacuation - lots of good stuff on display.

A coworker came as Bill Lumberg from Office Space, complete with TPS reports and all. Sad thing is I didn't notice who he was until I saw the TPS reports.

I was going to go as Manbearpig at the Halloween party I went to last weekend, but the Halloween store had nothing of use.

D'oh!
They're closing streets around work tomorrow for filming!

D'oh! D'oh!
They're closing them to film scenes from "Til Death"!

A friend of mine dressed up as Tobias Funke. He wore very very tight jean cut offs and kept raising his hand and saying "me thinks..." It was to our Halloween softball game (we have a costumes vs. no costumes game every year)and he played quite well considering. (I was a dodger bear. bear suit + Dodgers jersy).

Gonzo just filed for free agency (per D. Leung).

Music to my ears.

288- d'oh.

279 I was blaming the headline writer for that, not the article writer.

299
And that page was the most viewed page on the Griddle this month by humans!

(Two other pages beat it out but I think they were just spidered.)

297 What took him so long?

301
Someone had moved a trash can in front of his house.

294 Simple get costumes for a man, a bear, and a pig and put them together.

277 I'll choose to believe Grady on that one, over Tim Brown's conclusions from information from unnamed sources. Josh Rawitch did say that he thought Brown was "getting the story right" although "that's not to say it's perfect" - perhaps three weeks incommunicado is an imperfection.

302 LOL !

Nate Silver just posted an Unfiltered post at BP addressing specifically why the Dodgers shouldn't sign ARod. To summarize, he says that the Dodgers could spend less to get a greater "wins" payoff by adding Schilling to replace Loaiza and Rowand to replace Pierre. Pretty convincing, though it doesn't look into the future as a long term ARod contract would.

Doh! Posted above I see.

307

I was gonna say....

No one in my jury pool was in costume. Strange. Thought there was one guy with long silver hair and a long beard that was half blue.

One fellow came to work dressed in a nice suit with a large piece of toilet tissue stuck to the side of his shoe.

309 Though, not Thought

...spidered?

i cant believe the Lakers were going to do a Wallace/Artest for Kobe trade.

Are you kidding me? Why would you do that?

313
Phil likes Artest, and Wallace is known as a Defensive Presence In The Middle.

Apparently, Laker management hasn't noticed that Wallace's numbers have declined steadily since 02-03.

Dodgers are next surprise team

>> The Dodgers will also watch closely how things unfold this winter between Johan Santana and the Twins. Santana can become a free agent after the 2008 season so it could be that the Twins present the star left-hander with the club's best offer, and if he rejects it, the Twins go ahead and move him for some young talented players -- the Dodgers have a bunch of those -- as Minnesota would be aiming to build up a young, competitive team before moving into its new ballpark in 2010. <<

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21438430

Luis Gonzalez is a type B free agent this year, so if we were both dumb enough to offer him arbitration and he were foolish enough to turn it down, we'd get a draft pick. Yay.

For those wondering about the minority candidate requirement for the Dodger position, here is Tony Jackson's thoughts.

Meanwhile, commissioner Bud Selig's edict that teams looking to fill high-profile vacancies must interview at least a couple of minority candidates doesn't appear to be an obstacle to the Dodgers quickly hiring Torre.

The club can simply point out to Selig that it has been at the forefront of diversity, as evidenced by several high-ranking front office officials who are African-American (assistant general manager for player development DeJon Watson and special assistants Toney Howell and Vance Lovelace) or Asian (assistant general manager Kim Ng and Asian operations director Acey Kohrogi).

I think they are Tony's own thoughts because there are no quotation marks around them. And I guess the concept of a woman interviewing for a manager position is so outlandish that Ng's gender was ignored by Tony.

316 I still think that any team that is going to sign Milton Bradley, who optimistically will be ready by mid-season, is going to wait and see if the Padres actually offer him arbitration. In other words don't sign him until after the arbitration deadline and then wait and see if Milton accepts.

317 Forefront except for the two most visible jobs on the baseball side of the organization.

313 There is no player that I would less like to see in a Laker uniform than Artest. It has nothing to do with his talent. The guy is a madman!

Torre's pretty old. Do old people count as a minority? Age discrimination and whatnot?

313 That trade might have broken me totally away from being a laker fan. That trade is seriously an awful, awful glimpse into the incompetence of the Lakers front office.

Ron Artest is a nice #2 option, but hardly a player that will elevate a team.

Ben Wallace is one of the most overpaid, overrated players in the game. He flourished in Detroit because he had no scoring responsibilities, as well as no need to match up with any large centers. (Rasheed often defended the center, Wallace is more of a weak-side shot-blocker, a guy who comes off his man to swat the shot.) He would be terrible in the Western Conference, which has Tim Duncan, Yao Ming, and Amare Stoudemire to contend with in the middle.

Getting Ben Wallace for Kobe wouldn't be so different from getting Brian Grant for Shaq.

Except Grant was just a third piece to make the contracts work.

The Lakers would be getting Wallace, because they actually think he would be really good for the team.

Selig Allows Dodgers to Bypass Hiring Rules

The legacy of Jackie Robinson lives on.

>> The Dodgers, who when they played in Brooklyn broke baseball's color barrier a half-century ago, have such a good minority employment record that Commissioner Bud Selig exempted them from following his directive on interviewing minority candidates for decision-making positions.

Once Joe Girardi became the Yankees' manager, the Dodgers wanted to hire Joe Torre for what they expected would be their managerial vacancy and they didn't want to delay doing it. They called Selig and asked to be allowed to skip the mandatory interviews of minority candidates. <<

## Before he acted on the request from the owner, Frank McCourt, Selig studied the Dodgers' hiring history. What he found surprised even him. The Dodgers had perhaps the best diversity record in the major leagues. Thirty-eight percent of their staff consisted of blacks, women, Latinos or Asians. ##

http://tinyurl.com/274gln

312- This kind of spider:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_crawler

325 Good to know that the legacy of Jackie Robinson not only lives on but is way more enduring than the legacy of Al Campanis.

325 Boy, that's the first thing I've read that has made me feel good about the Dodgers in a long time.

328
How about this:

The Dodgers are still not the Giants.

We're on a roll!

Torre Is Close to Finalizing Contract With Dodgers

>> The Dodgers said yesterday they had not completed a deal. Proctor laughed yesterday when asked if Torre had called him about his new job. But when the deal is done and the season starts, Torre will be calling on him often. Proctor is looking forward to it.

"I'm excited," Proctor said in a telephone interview. "I think it's going to be great for the organization. He knows how to win. He knows what it takes. He's a very directed and gifted leader." <<

## Little and Torre are popular with players, but with Torre's résumé, he should command more respect. The feeling around the Dodgers is that players took advantage of Little. ##

http://tinyurl.com/2m2vwg

wait I don't get it. did the lakers seriously consider that awful trade proposal, vs. it just being something offered? a rumor or a proposal vs. something they seriously wanted...? so amazingly one sided I have a hard time taking it seriously. or they really are dense. but at least its not happening.

331
The feeling around the Dodgers is that players took advantage of Little.

"Hey, Skipper, is it OK if we don't play the game, but just talk about the game instead?"

"Grady, can we just pretend that we went from 1st to 3rd on that single?"

"Skip, is your refigerator running?"

[telephone rings]
"Grady Little."
"Hi, I'm looking to speak to a Hugh Jazz..."

333 Ben Dover, Line 1...Ben Dover, Line 1.

325

for some reason I'm not surprised.

I would like to know which players "took advantage" of Grady, and what that means, exactly.

Will we find out? Probably not. My guess is that Shea Hillenbrand kept borrowing money and not paying it back.

336 Matt Kemp kept getting rides into the stadium, but didn't heed the bumper sticker:
"Gas, grass, or..."

I'm sorry, but no one rides for free. That's just the rule.

"This James Loney kid kept taking advantage of Grady by convincing him to let him play. It's like he thought he was good or something."

- Some cranky old guy

LaRoche refused to get off his lawn.

Cameron Suspended for Violating Stimulant Policy

>> "Since learning of my positive test result, I have done everything possible to determine what may have caused a positive test," Cameron said in a written statement. "After all of the analysis and testing, I can only conclude that a nutritional supplement I was taking was tainted. Unfortunately, the actual supplement is gone and therefore cannot be tested."

It is not known if Cameron appealed his suspension.

"Without the actual supplement in hand, the rules are clear, and I must accept the suspension," he said.

Cameron, who played for the Mets in 2004 and 2005, is expected to file for free agency. <<

http://tinyurl.com/yoea4k

interesting "Donnie Baseball" story from yahoo sports [ http://tinyurl.com/37cjql ] if its been posted already my apologies.

333 - somehow on that last one I see Grady yelling "Olmedo, it's for you!"

McCourt has made Dodgers a mess

>> I won't buy any crud about this being Little's decision. If there was a sense that Little wanted out at season's end, then McCourt shouldn't have said Little would definitely be back. This seems like the same kind of delayed reaction as the one McCourt had after the 2005 season, when he gave then-general manager Paul DePodesta permission to fire Jim Tracy, then realized belatedly that he was firing the wrong guy and canned DePodesta <<

http://www.presstelegram.com/sports/ci_7328623

The feeling is the players took advantage of little.

Well duh, the many line-ups I saw with Pierre, Gonzales, and Nomar should make that obvious.

As stated at Prospective or somewhere, the disconnect between the young talent and what was played was biggest in LA. (NL I may have to add).

343 Is that your opinion or just stating what the columnist said?

Owners are easy targets and will always remain so.

343
He was using the story's headline.

345 Lew Wolff isn't an easy target. Neither are John Henry, Arte Moreno, or Drayton McClane.

Owners are targets. Bad owners are easy targets.

It's tough to make fun of a steel drivin' man.

348 Lord, Lord.

347
You are probably the only person that would consider McClane a good owner.

345 343 Is that your opinion or just stating what the columnist said?

Bob already answered for me. :-) But my MO when posting an article is usually to include the headline, followed by one or more excerpts and then the link.

350 They've been the second best team in the NL since he bought the team.

I think it's funny when poker websites have commercials that say "this is not a gambling website" at the bottom of the screen.

352
He is considered quite the meddler and he did just hire Ed Wade.

Sorry that this is a little long, but here is the payroll for next year (roughly).

Derek Lowe, 10 Million
Brad Penny, 9.5 Million
Jason Schmidt, 12 Million
Chad Billingsley, .5 Million
Takashi Saito, 1.5 Million
Jonathan Broxton, .5 Million
Joe Beimel, 1 Million
Jonathan Meloan, .5 Million
Estaban Loaiza, 7 Million

Russell Martin, .5 Million
James Loney, .5 Million
Jeff Kent, 9 Million
Rafael Furcal, 13 Million
Andy Laroche, .3 Million
Matt Kemp, .5 Million
Juan Pierre, 8 Million
Andre Ethier, .5 Million
Mike Lieberthal, 1.5 Million
Nomar Garciapara, 8.5 Million

Bill Mueller, .75 Million
Brett Tomko, 1 Million

This all adds up to about 85 Million, but I might have overlooked some outstanding financial obligations and the rest of the 40 man roster which mostly consists of people making the minimum. If the payroll last year was really 120 then Ned might have 30-35 million to play with.

354 I agree with this.

And ESPN is reporting that the abomination Kobe trade didn't go through because of Kobe's contract. Bill Walton is the voice of reason. BILL WALTON

355 - The four most expensive position players are all unnecessary. Garciapara (Laroche), Pierre (Kemp), Kent (Abreu) and Furcal (Hu) all could be replaced with similar production at near the league minimum. Garciapara and Pierre are unattractive to other teams without eating some of their salaries (I would eat 4 Million a season just to cut bait, but that is wishful thinking), but Kent and Furcal could probably get takers. Imagine a lineup like this:

Martin
Loney
Abreu/Laroche
Hu
A-Rod
Kemp
Ethier
Young/Laroche

I am dreaming but I still get weak in the knees thinking about it.

I am glad to see some thoughtful dialog show up on this blog. I appreciate Nate Silver for his insight. I think he is right on about the direction the Dodgers should take this year. This now generation whose philosophy is dominant in our society is not in the best interest of the Dodgers. By that I mean that to look for quick fixes each year to produce a winner is not wise. We ended up on a course that we should continue for another year so that we don't put ourselves in the position to forever regret our hasty actions. To be more specific, until we find out more about the capabilities of the best left-handed pitcher in the minors (Kershaw), the highest ranking Dodger player in the minors (LaRoche), and the current position player with the highest ceiling (Kemp), we should not move them for the sake of A-Rod, A. Jones and/or Santana. It has been my experience in high leadership positions that stick with the plan till it is obvious that it will not work. After this year, the Dodgers will be in a better position to evaluate its young talent, make warranted changes, and have more resources to do so. Stay the cours Dodgers even if it means not hiring Torre.

Anybody see the Lasorda video that ESPN has up right now in it's Torre article of the moment? I know Tommy's not everyone's favorite, but you gotta love his unwavering love for the blue. Made me crack up with "I don't understand how anyone wouldn't want to come to the Dodgers"

Our ex-beloved Eric Gagne filed for free-agency a few hours ago. I wonder were he'll end up, would the Dodgers even consider him at this point?

This now generation whose philosophy is dominant in our society is not in the best interest of the Dodgers.

I agree. Jettison the Baby Boomers who dominate the society and look to the younger, more thoughtful generation.

357
Even if it is only for one year, it would seem to me that we could have ARod and Santana. The Twins biggest hole is in the outfield and at third base. It seems to me that a package of LaRoche, Ethier, and McDonald (ouch) would do it. Ethier could be replaced by Delwyn Young, LaRoche could potentially be replaced by ARod and McDonald would be...painful.

That would be one heck of a pitching staff, though and an instant WS contender.

357 I like the sentiment to get more homegrown at 2B & SS, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect:

1) Abreu (or LaRoche) to be as good as Kent at 2B
2) Hu to be as good as than Furcal at SS

I see Abreu stepping into the Ramon Martinez role this year, backing up at 2B, SS, and occasionally 3B. Abreu should still see significant time at 2B, as a defensive replacement in the late innings of most games, plus the spot start at least once a week to keep Kent fresh.

I'd also give Furcal the benefit of the doubt, assuming he's healthy next year he should be in the top half of NL SS, especially factoring in his defense.

I don't think either player could or would be traded. The most likely (but still unlikely) option is for Kent to retire, but I see him coming back with a new sheriff in town, to borrow a phrase from awful times past.

Regarding salaries, the payroll is close to exactly $90 million for 21-22 spots, after adding in:

1) Beimel will probably make ~$1.5m in arb
2) Proctor will probably make ~$1m in arb
3) Tomko's $1m buyout
4) Odalis's $750k buyout ($1.5m split with KC -- I think)
5) Wolf, Lieberthal, & Lucille II's buyouts total $650k

361
I don't which generation I belong to. I was born in 1965 and I'm after the Baby Boom. But I was drummed out of Generation X for holding a fulltime job with the same employer for a long period of time.

Will any generation welcome? Or am I just a generation unto myself? And is this why I don't have any children of my own?

364 That's unacceptable. We need to fit you into into a generation, so that we can use broad generalizations to represent you and your ilk.

The fogies were the Me Generation.
We're the slackers/hipsters.
Bob needs a Generation.

364 you guys don't have a "swing" generation?

I'm apparently in the MTV Generation, which marks between Gen X and Gen Y. Frankly, I don't fit with any of the 3.

or what Brock said. I think everyone should fit into broad generalizations. It's simpler.

364
I deem you Gen Timm

Let it be so

361- Pff. Says the Beatles-lover.

369 Say what you will of the Boomers, they have the best music ever.

When the revolution comes, their contribution will not be overlooked. It will not, however, be enough to save them.

370 WRONG! I want to be in the IRS generation, before the MTV generation. IRS brought us Buzzcocks, Police, Oingo Boingo...

MTV brought us Madonna, Rod Stewart, and Kajagoogoo.

364 We're called "tweeners," Bob.

If we couldn't make broad generalizations, how could we stereotype people?

What kind of world would that be? I must fit everyone in to a slot. I'm like a taxonomist!

I am Generation Y whatever the hell that means.

371

they also brought that animated A-HA video chicks went goo-goo-gaa-gaa over.

372
I was read out of Generation X! Formally!

I blame my grandparents. They went and had kids that were born just before the Great Depression. Then my parents got married at the relatively late age of 27 and didn't have their last child until the then ancient age of 36.

Curse my parents for waiting around to find someone they really wanted to spend their life with in a careful and methodical way!

The Tweeners will get to participate in the new order. So you have that going for you.

Which is nice.

374 according to the stats, you guys are into - everyone has PC's, everyone uses IM, and there is a huge problem with childhood obesity.

also, everyone has a blog

378
Well, I was fat as a kid, so that fits me perfectly. Except I have no blog.

377 From our trailer parks after we've retired, since the baby boomers will have bought up all the retirement property and bankrupted the social security system ...

I've been waiting around hoping some breaking news occurs but so far this is all Fox Sports.com has (up dated 1 hour ago) [http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7390536] I'm guessing (as some people here pointed out) that maybe tomorrow will be the CONFIRMED day of Joe Terres arrival.

Bob, it's OK, I'll let you back into Generation X.

Please don't feel like you have to miss out on all the "lack of optimism for the future, nihilism, cynicism, skepticism, alienation and mistrust in traditional values and institutions" or feel undeserving of joining those of us who are "apathetic, cynical, disaffected, streetwise loners and slackers" just because you're a mere month and a half older than me.

380 Fear not. The Boomer assets and investments will be redistributed after....

I've said too much.

The lineup mentioned in the BP article and posted by Jon above combined to hit .295/.357/.437 in 2007.

In the entire NL, all #1-8 hitters combined to hit .274/.344/.439.

Removing LaRoche and adding A-Rod at 3B, the lineup hit a combined .300/.367/.470 in 2007.

Now that I have a generation again, I can go to bed feeling secure.

385 That's just like your generation, going to bed feeling secure.

Sheesh. You guys never change.

So do we offer Gonzalez arbitration?

And now that I know the Boomer assets will someday be mine, I too can go to bed feeling secure.

387 Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

389

I mean

1. he doesn't want to be back
2. we probably don't want him back
3. Another team isn't going to be timid in trying to sign him because they won't lose any picks.

I don't see the harm. He knows the situation here and he has made it clear he doesn't want to be a part of that.

you can't help & wonder how much money Joe Torre & his entourage are gonna be worth collectively.

387

HA!

390 I see you working there, Nate. But it's a dangerous game. The only winning move is not to play.

Let him run off to play LF in Pittsburgh.

If I was GM, I would. Its the same thing with the Padres last year and them offering arbitration to 5 guys with the understanding none of them will be back.

387 That's an interesting question. The initial answer is "Oh my God, no!" because if Gonzo were to accept the Dodgers would owe him at least $5.88m (the most his $7.35m could be cut is 20%) and of course he would be on the roster potentially taking time away from better players.

But, why can't the Dodgers pull a San Diego 2006 and basically tell Gonzo that he will not play at all in 2008, and offer him arb anyway? It seems his opinion of LA is already stained anyway, so he's not inclined to come back.

It's a risky game to play, but what the hell, I say roll the dice that Gonzo will in fact still be gonzo.

Maybe Houston can cooperate the same way they did with Woody Williams -- that is, sign Gonzo before the deadline to offer arbitration so the Dodgers can net the compensatory pick.

Sorry, Nate, my sarcasm meter must be broken. An interesting idea, but Greg Brock is right ... too dangerous a game to play.

Torre changes things. Maybe he thinks Torre will change culture and he will want to be back.

393 The only winning move is not to play

The entire room erupts. "Yay!"

Speaking of War Games, does John C. McGinley get the lead role in "The Dabney Coleman Story"?

Also, unrelated, but great job by dzrtratt with the More Cowbell redux. That was a great read.

Whats the timetable for when Teams can sign free agents and when is the deadline to offer arbitration?

The Dodgers could go to arbitration with Gonzo, then he would be awarded ~$6m, then the Dodgers could cut him in spring training and only owe him 25% of his salary.

The Padres pulled this move with Todd Walker last season. Sure, the Dodgers might have to sit through a grievance hearing or two, but it's worth the risk.

390 Remember Coletti wasn't very shrewd with offering players arbitration last year..

400 Nate, it's December 1.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/schedule/important_dates.jsp

Thanks Eric.

I'll predict a Torre announcment tomorrow. The Dodgers think this delay is giving creedence to their "mutual resignation" story but now realize they are taking heat from all sides the longer this drags on. I'll go even further and say the press conference is between 3:00-4:00 PST.

Torre wears his hat like my Dad used to, with the cap essentially sitting on top of the head and not pulled down at all.

So he's got that going for him.

If LuGo accepted arbitration, for reasons that would surpass understanding, there's a good chance he'd still be the third best outfielder on the team. On a one year deal for a little too much money, but not absurdly too much.

i'm between gen x and gen y. i don't mind not having a generation.

355 Only thing to update there is that Lieberthal won't be back. That frees up 1.5 million. There was a buy-out, not sure how much, but it wasn't too much. We also bought out Ramon M for a nominal amount (nominal in baseball terms, not real life of course).

Anyone else think Piazza might come back to chase a ring and be a pinch hitter? I'm not sure how many teams would take him as a full time DH. He would be a good back-up catcher, or third catcher.

I also wonder if Grady's overusing Russell was ever addressed.

407 Well, if you consider Young a viable outfield option, he'd be the fourth best outfielder. And If Repko is healthy, he might even sneak past LuGo.

Just cut bait. That ship has sailed. Time to turn the page. Additional metaphor connoting moving on.

405
But we're still in PDT.

From Plaschke...

Make no mistake, Joe Torre will light up the joint.

That would be bad PR for the McCourts...

I cannot see a scenario where we offer Luis Gonzalez arbitration. I also think the market for him as a full time outfielder will be very small if it exists at all. He has had a very nice career and is a nice guy and all of that, but he's the next Steve Finley if somebody signs him to start everyday.

Make no mistake, Joe Torre will light up the joint.

Why do you think he's heading out here? Everybody knows the East Coast has terrible yoda.

I think the delay is about money. For Joe's coaches. They were paid a lot in NY, and while he's willing to accept a pay cut, he's not willing that they take one too. The manager/coach budget is going up by a multiple of about eight, maybe nine if the Torre caravan is brought in. If McCourt suddenly starts wondering if he really needs Mattingly and Bowa and whoever else...he might scuttle.

409 Lieberthal's $1.4m option was bought out for $100k, but the Dodgers plan to offer him a smaller deal to come back for the Jim Sorgi role.

Lucille II's $1m option was bought out for $50k.

412 Make no mistake, Milton Bradley has lighted up a lot of joints.

416 Do you know that the Dodgers want Lieberthal back? Seems to me that 1.4 million is at least the going rate for a guy of that caliber. I'd be surprised if he signed for much less than that.

I think they might be looking at a different back-up, someone like Piazza.

418 From Tony Jackson's blog on October 30:

Lieberthal, the little-used backup to Russell Martin, receives a $100,000 buyout of his $1.5 million option. The club is expected to try to re-sign him at a lower figure.

415. If your right, the Ned&Co. Brain Trust have put themselves in a rather poor negotiating position.

414
He needs to head to Oakland if hes in search of that.

If we get this A-Rod guy, can't we trade the Twins one year of Furcal plus one great prospect for one year of Santana? I want my cake and eat it too. I want A-Rod, but I want to find out what LaRoche can do. With the bats in the lineup (ARod among them), LaRoche could bat 7th and just grow into it.

Maybe the Twins would take Kent and Furcal. I realize they'll want at least one future guy on top of it, but I'd draw a line there. A one-year rental of Santana isn't worth more than that.

Aren't backup catchers supposed to play 25 games, and go 0-4 while playing good defense (the answer is yes)?

Just grab a good fielding catcher off the scrap heap for $750,000. Like, I dunno, the guy we have now. This Moehler fellow works just fine.

Maybe Ozzie Virgil is available.

420 Such a surprise.

415 That would be a debacle. But a very plausible debacle.

In fact, I can see that happening.

According to the Tim Brown version of recent events, Colletti felt that half the fault for last season was his and the other half was the fault of the coaching staff. I'm wondering what he expected Grady to have done differently. There's no way Colletti wanted Pierre benched. Does he actually think that if Grady made Kent and Kemp make nice that the players who played bad in September would have actually played better?

423 Ozzie Virgil, Sr? I'm OK with that.

Maybe we can get brief Torreite Sal Fasano, who will be able to grow wicked facial hair without the Yankee shackles.

422 Kent and Furcal would be totally antithetical to what Terry Ryan does in Minnesota.

Santana would probably take two MLB ready position players (I'd guess LaRoche and Hu) and a minor league pitcher. McDonald, or someone of that ilk.

Speaking of catchers, maybe Joe Torre can have a child named Yorvit with Jessica Alba.

410- I may be allowing regfairfield to influence me more than is prudent, but I'm not sold on Delwyn Young. Yet. I'd keep him on the team, unless something useful could be gotten for him. But I'd be powerfully uneasy about any theory of next year that included his seeing a lot of action. Not as uneasy as Abreu in for Kent, which more people than I would have guessed seem to be agitating for.

428 What Terry Ryan did!

But your point still stands.

431 Bahhhhh. But Smith is an acolyte.

From assembling the various pieces about Grady Little's resignation, I'm beginning to think it was the PVLs who drove him out of baseball. He had these players he had such high respect for, and here they were, not only failing to deliver, but being such perfect asses about it, making him feel like a traitor for batting Loney third or playing Kemp at all.

Toward the end of the season, when the Dodgers were starting to play a lot of "win or else" kind of games, Grady's lineups were much closer to what they should have been. He knew what he had to do, but he couldn't take the b^tching.

I think it's generally the case that PVLs aren't always the nicest people. 20 years of sycophantic behavior by everyone in your general vicinity can turn even the most decent guy into a egotistical turkey. There are surely exceptions. But the couple of times I was able to use a press pass to see the Dodgers during BP and working out on the field, it was amazing how much ego stroking was going on. The President of the United States doesn't this much blue smoke up his butt. So, when a guy like LuGo was unhappy, it wasn't like he was off sulking quietly. He was undoubtedly sheer torture to deal with.

Torre is rightly seen as someone who can deal with that. He might be a PVL-lover, but he's not a PVL-pushover and that's an important distinction.

So, while I think there was a ration of b.s. in yesterday's press conference, I don't think it was all b.s. I believe Grady told Ned at the end of the season that he was burnt and needed to think things over. Maybe from that point on, there was miscommunication, but I would believe it that Grady got this ball rolling.

430 Well, Young has always hit. He doesn't have a power (in the traditional corner outfield sense), but the kid always puts together very nice offensive seasons. When PECOTA projections come out, I'd be surprised if he doesn't surpass LuGo.

433 I could not agree more, nor could I have said it more succinctly.

Ratt wins the internets today.

426- That way madness lies. This is the Dodgers. If somebody nebulously accuses you of being to blame for something, without any attempt to explain what it was you did wrong, the proper thing to do is grovel at their feet.

And promise not to move their trashcans again.

I had a little Dodger come up to the door tonight. Pity his mother said he was Nomar. If she had said Russel the little guy would have needed another pumpkin pail.

437
I got little kids dressed in Nascar outfits.

I wanted to say comeback with another costume on, but I guess you can't do that.

437 The best costume I had tonight was Boba Fett. Legit Boba Fett costume. A couple of kids phoned it in with NBA jerseys, and one kid just threw a pair of horns on her head. No costume, just devil horns.

In my day, we went all out with the outfits. These kids just treat Halloween like a candy delivery service. A disgrace to the entire enterprise.

/My lawn...Get off it.

433. From assembling the various pieces about Grady Little's resignation, I'm beginning to think it was the PVLs who drove him out of baseball.

Agreed. The comment he made at the end of the season that stuck with me was something to the effect that his greatest disappointment was that some people are fine when things are going well but when things don't go so well then the other side of them comes out.
And I don't think he was referring to the kids.

434- Except in 2006.

2007's PECOTA projected he'd do .241/.294/.406 in 2008, while playing a thoroughly crappy RF. That's pretty certain to be revised way up, this year. LuGo's 2008 projection (from last year's numbers) was .250/.330/.403. With a good 2007 (for him) his projection might go up, too. Or down. Anyway, it's not clear to me that one will be better than the other. If I was choosing between them, I'd choose Young every time. But the remote chance of LuGo accepting, and the potential payoff of a new shark sandwich LOOGy, well, sign me up!

I have no idea what to think about Repko, except that I'm not confidant he'll be back. Colletti cut Werth, and he'd demonstrated an ability to hit. If the plan if for Pierre to never sit again, Repko may end up cut to carry a second long reliever/alternate starter type.

and the potential payoff of a new shark sandwich LOOGy

I prefer a Smell the Glove LOOGY.

435 That's high praise from the Cal Ripken Jr. of excellent blog comments.

It's 8:45pm and we haven't had a single trick-or-treater.

Ok, it's a 40-year-old neighborhood, far out of the reach of young families and starter homes, but not even grandchildren?

It's also been raining.

Guess we're stuck with the Heath, Snickers, and Mr. Goodbars for ourselves.

444 If it is any consolation, one of the guys over at the Catfish Stew is going as you. :)

445 Ha! Selleck and I are about the same age; Petry I'm not so sure of. My mustache is probably a lot grayer than Tom's, and I don't dye my hair, so it's grayer too, I'm sure.

And forget the Ferrari; I drive a '97 Geo Metro with 48K on it.

Here's what most of you were hoping would show up this Halloween.

http://tinyurl.com/yvvfqy

The link is SFW. The links that follow are probably okay, but not in a highly PC office.

No baseball players? Stay on topic! :)

http://tinyurl.com/23feof

447
I want to work for that CEO.

449 i've never thought about "suspenders" that way before...

439. The problem with hollowen is that now everyone goes to Walmart/Target/Costco and buys the 2lbs bag of mixed candy. Snickers, M&Ms, Hersey bars etc. At the end of the the night you have given away your 2 lb bag but when your kid gets home from trick or treating they have collected about 2 lbs of mixed candy. You are right back where you started. Next year I am buying the giant candy bars so we can be the cool house for once.

451 I went all snickers for just that reason.

::eats fourth snickers of the day::

430 Nothing wrong with that at all. However, I still think that Delwyn should be the fourth outfielder next year, my complaints about him come out when people think he should be starting for us or lump him with the rest of our prospects in terms of untradeability.

451 I've always liked the idea of buying a box of candy bars, then giving them to the first kid you see. No kid will remember the guy who gave them a one inch long Mr. Goodbar, but at least this way you make one kid's night memorable.

433 To support your theory:

But Dodgers first baseman James Loney and reliever Joe Beimel said they were saddened by the news of Little's departure.

Referring to the Dodgers' fourth-place finish last season, Loney said, "I don't think you can put any certain percentage of blame on the manager. It depends on the kind of players you have."

http://tinyurl.com/2wc2h8

433 Is very well put and certainly in line with things I was thinking towards the end of the season.

406

I think that was the in thing at the time cause my dad did that as well.

So, while we didn't, the Chunichi Dragons did need a Norihiro. Does this mean he should get the full Victorino treatment?

https://griddle.baseballtoaster.com/archives/857513.html

455
"Out of the mouths of babes..."

Living in the land of the kids, otherwise known as Utah, I have discovered what a real Halloween is like. Literally hundreds of kids on the street, all in full costume, none of them slutty, all of them cute.

A neighbor down the street has his basketball hoop set up, with different distances marked off depending on age. All kids get two pieces of candy from a big bowl, but kids who make a shot from the designated distance get an extra-large treat. My daughter, bless her, made it on her first try (you get two tries), and got a large pack of donuts. Dads can play too, but they have to make a three pointer from much farther out to win a huge candy bar.

Another neighbor up the street has massive quantities of spooky decorations and jumps out at kids in the dark to hand out candy. The mom is setup by the garage with a fire pit and hot chocolate to keep everyone warm, and neighbors usually hang around for 15 or 20 minutes to chat.

Around the corner is the neighbor who setup the Haunted Creek. The creek that runs through our development goes dry this time of year, so they setup an elaborate haunted house along the creekbed, through the tunnel that goes under the street, and up the slope on the other side. There was a line and a five minute wait to get in, with the sounds of screams echoing a block away. They had dug a coffin-sized hole in their backyard, covered it with cardboard and leaves, and had a ghoul jump out as the kids walked down to the creek. Various other ghosts along the way, and strobe lights and a guy with a chainsaw in the tunnel. They even radioed ahead to let people know how old the kids were, and ramped it up or down depending on their age.

Trick-or-treating starts at 5:30 and winds down about 9:30, when the parties start for the teens.

458

I thought it was there manager on the picture but its nice the hear Norihiro Nakamura got a clutch double.

460
My daughter

You're gonna have to be more specific...

460. That sounds like ours, on trick or treating started at 4 and ended at about 7:30, it's just too cold in Chicago to stay out much later.

Man oh man, what did people do for entertainment before the internet?

The Rockies' postseason, in 30 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmaOj5ot7jA

462 The one who was dressed like a flamenco dancer.

Didn't see this posted, forgive me if it was.

Andruw Jones is a type B free agent this year, while Rowand and Hunter are As.

Andruw Jones, aka the least of 3 evils (assuming we're replacing Ethier and not Pierre).

Complete Elias Free Agent rankings, in USAT:

AL- http://tinyurl.com/239a3e
NL- http://tinyurl.com/yonttv

468 Gotta love any system that ranks Mike Lowell ahead of A-Rod.

Even though he's a type B, I'm betting nobody will agitate for Shea Hillenbrand to get offered arbitration.

470- Oops. My bad; I was looking at last year's list. Hillenbrand is worthless in yet another way, this year.

How are those rankings created? If they're undisclosed, do people have guesses as to what metrics are used to weigh the players?

A-Rod is 6th among 2B, 3B, and SS.

468
I'm confused. Those players are all free agents...?

Juan Pierre mysteriously dropped out of the compensation block, this year. I guess Elias decided that losing him to free agency would be reward enough.

473- No. They rank all the players. That way you don't get situations where an awful player's team gets compensated for losing him just because no other players at that position turned FA that year.

475
Oh. So the As and Bs are relative to all other players in the league at the time, not relative to some absolute standard...?

Right. The top 20% of players (using whatever metric they use; it can't be too bad, since it's got the Golden G-d at the top of the NL Catchers list) are type A (first round pick, or next available plus a sandwich pick). The next 40% are type B (sandwich pick). Everybody else is uncompensated.

460 - Any other state and the dads would be getting a cold one.

Milton Bradley's a type A. But he'd probably take arbitration at this point, wouldn't he?

472 I think so. I believe A-Rod is so low because he was 21st in fielding percentage.

478 We get our choice of a cold one (root beer) or a hot one (chocolate or cider).

This is a report on Yahoo on the financial impact a WS will could make for teams. Here is what they say about the Dodgers potential earnings for a win:

The "perfect storm" for creating financial value from a World Series title would be a large market team with available stadium capacity and a championship dry spell. The Los Angeles Dodgers, who played before 85% of capacity at Dodger Stadium in 2007 and haven't been to the World Series in 19 years, would have earned a $65 million payoff

http://tinyurl.com/2pe35o

That would make a dent in ARod's salary...

482
WS win

482 As many anti-ARod folks like to point out, ARod has never even reached the WS. ;)

455 The hilarious quote in that article is this one:

"[Wells] would love to come back," [David Wells' agent Gregg] Clifton said of Wells. "He enjoyed his time with them immensely. David had a lot of success under Joe and I don't think Joe coming back to the Dodgers is any impediment."

Isn't the largest impediment to David Wells returning to MLB getting someone to offer him a contract? And why did Dylan Hernandez even think to contact Wells' agent, of all people, for this story?

It's funny to me how the media points out that A-rod has never made it to a WS and then they point out it's because baseball is a team sport and it's not about one player.

485
I read that earlier and chuckled a bit as well.

David Wells for a full season...that'll put us over the top.

There cannot be enough links to 433 . Spot on , Mr. dzzrtRatt, spot on.

[Wells] would love [for someone to once again pay him millions of dollars] to come back [and be a fat tub of goo].

Lets talk about Andruw Jones. What last year a fluke? Will he remind next year and be productive for 4-5 more years? Will he continue to hit around 30 homeruns and play a good centerfield? His career average is 263/342/497 with a 113OPS+. His career best OPS+ was 136 at age 28 in 2005.

How much does he have left?

remind=rebound. That was weird.

490

Answer time!

No.
No.
No.
Yes. (defensively)
A good amount, but nothing exciting.

If we can't get A-Rod (though we should try), I'd dump Pierre for Andruw. I wouldn't get rid of Ethier for Andruw.

He HAS to rebound, just based on his horrible BABIP, right? But, I don't really think he's that good anyway. He had to hit 50 home runs to OPS+ 136 or something, right?.

490 Yep, he's not going to have a .240 BABIP again. He's got enough left where I wouldn't hate a Carlos Lee type deal.

490
I think it would depend on the years that a team signs him for. For all of Colletti's shortcomings, his mindset of signing guys for over market money and under market years is sound.

I would say that Jones is worth the risk if it is in the 2-3 year range, but if Boras wants 5-6 years, screw it. There are cheaper risks (Baldelli, Rowand) if we want someone with a high ceiling.

So basically when I say no he won't rebound, it means he'll be good again, but to me, a "rebound" would be posting more than a 115 OPS+ with at least 25 home runs and a 450 slg.

Personally, I think his best years are behind him.

490
Yes
Yes
Yes
Plenty

I was thinking Druw is probably going to get a 5yr 88 mil deal, which comes out to 17.6mil per year.

Druw at 17.6 over the next 5 or Pierre at 9mil over the next 4?

490
I also worry about Andruw being on the MIggy Cabrera offseason conditioning regimen. Is it just me or does the guy look more and more like a Puckett/Gwynn waiting to happen.

Well, if in fact, singing 'druw means we dump Pierre, then I'm all for it! However, my interpretation is Druw with Pierre and no Ethier.

499

...then there's that.

I'm for signing Andruw Jones if it means getting rid of Pierre in the process.

I'm not for signing Andruw Jones if it only means that Pierre will be in LF, and Ethier/Young not on the team.

Jones isnt worth $$$$$$ more than Ethier/Young.

498 What would we do with Pierre? I'm okay with sitting him on the bench until he begs to be traded, and then trade him for a PTBNL while eating 99% of his salary. But I'm pretty sure Ned wouldn't.

496 so not something one single dodger managed to do last season..

Jones's BABIPs for the last 10 seasons:

1998: 301
296
313
274
290
297
305
244
270
2007: 248

The 248 in 2007 doesn't look that flukey to me. His last 3 seasons have been low.

I'm with ToyCannon on this one. I'd be very happy to replace Pierre with Jones, provided the money and length of contract are reasonable.

505 He had a lower BABIP in 2005?

Just a quick little projected VORP comparison (numbers mainly coming from my rear), assuming we can get an okay pitcher for Ethier:

CF Jones: 30
LF Pierre: 0
SP Scott Baker: 15
Total: 45

CF Pierre: 10
LF Ethier: 15
SP: Loaiza: 5
Total: 30

Plus the Jones team has much better defense. However, the Ethier team can then spend money on a starter and if it were Schilling, it pushes them ahead in VORP, but the improved defense might make up for it.

I'm just glad the discussion is on 'Druw and not Hunter.

Silly rabbits, it will be Kemp missing from the outfield not Ethier.

Unless Torre mandates that Pierre gets shipped out, Andruw replaces Ethier or...gulp...Kemp.

505 It was. And that was the year he hit 50 home runs. Is Andruw Jones a BABIP anomaly?

Ned might like Pierre, but I'm sure he feels that if you have a chance to get Andruw Jones (again I'm thinking like NedCo) I gotta go for it and kick Pierre off to the curb.

That's what he did with the manager, after all.

Is Andruw Jones a BABIP anomaly?

He seems a likely roid suspect to me. His HRs jumped pretty dramatically, then fell off pretty dramatically. Maybe he just doesn't hit the ball as hard as he used to.

505 - His BABIP dropped last year, but so did his HR rate (if I remember correctly from when I looked it up last month). So the BABIP should correct somewhat, but what happened to his power? Undisclosed injury?

HoopsHype is now saying that Luol Deng is now in play and some offers have been made to the Lakers including him, but that Kobe has threatened to veto any deal which includes Deng. Kind of ironic that Kobe wants the Lakers to land a miracle trade bringing in talent to the Lakers, but not when he is part of the trade.
vr, Xei

505
I know what BABIP is, but if a player's is consistently low, does that indicate that he is a guy with a fly ball swing who simply can't get it out of the park?

Comparing that to his 2005, one has to wonder if he's seriously declining already.

514 - He seems a likely roid suspect to me.

Yeah, I guess there's that too.

If you have a sombrero, throw it to the sky and sing Happy Birthday Dear Fernando.

517 It doesn't necassarily mean he can't get it out of the park. It wouldn't effect BABIP one way or the other.

516 - Landing Deng means taking Wallace too I bet. I'd rather pass on Deng and take their youngsters.

Also, both Deng and Gordon didn't get extensions at last night's deadlines, meaning both will be restricted free agents next year.

518
(with an evil laugh)

Let the Giants sign Jones. He and Zito should make a great $40 mil team for the next five years.

BUUUUUWAAAAAHHHAAAAAHHHAAAAHHHAAA

If the Lakers can get Deng and Gordon for Kobe, plus maybe a rookie (Noah?) and a draft pick, they will have a chance to turn the team around.

524 - But Kobe has the final say here. If he wants to play with Deng, he has every right in the world to enforce that.

523 - Kind of like Schmidt and Pierre...

If I'm Kupchak, I tell Kobe that he either gets traded for the players I want, or he doesn't get traded at all.

Period.

Plus the Jones team has much better defense.

That's arguable, especially since there aren't many good defensive metrics. Now, Ethier is probably better than Pierre in LF (BP suggests Ethier was much better defensively his year than the year before). Jones is certainly better than Pierre in CF, but can we be certain he'll be better than Pierre in CF more than Pierre will be worse than Ethier in LF?

And are we that certain Ethier can't play center field?

523
Dear God. I just saw that Pedro Feliz is a FA. Can someone hide that list from Colletti please and convince him that ARod and Schilling are the only FAs available?

Kim, it's time to slip your boss some night-night juice and stage a coup until the end of the Winter Meetings.

526 - But Schmidt is gone after '09, and Pierre shortly after.

Zito will be a Giant until after Hillary is running for re-election.

Andruw Jones: 2005/2007

LD%: 16.0%/17.2%
BABIP: .240/.242
GB%: 42.0%/38.9%
IF/F%: 12.4%/10.8%
HR/F%: 25.5%/13.3%

So Andruw's line drive percentage and batting average on balls in play went up a little between 2005 and 2007.
His ground ball percentage and infield fly/per flyball went down a little.
He was also more "clutch" in 2007 than in 2005.

Those ought to be good things, right?

Of course his home runs per fly ball went down a ton. And I'm less confident he can get that back. He also struck out 26 more times in 13 less at-bats.

528 Pierre is a decent centerfielder, I can't believe that it wouldn't translate to being a great left fielder, especially since it keeps his arm out of the picture.

529 Fortunately, we still have Nomar, so that shouldn't happen.

529
LOL - I saw the same thing, and as soon as I saw it, I said there is our 2008 3rd baseman.

530
That plus the fact that the Dodgers spent about $25 million less on our two trainwrecks than the Giants spent on just Zito.

532 - I guess the question is how well he could track the ball, but fair enough.

If all we wanted to do was end his streak, we could put him in right field and let the wall do its job . . .

re: Feliz

How did that guy evade my "stuff I don't want to happen" list?

530
Since when is 2011 shortly after?

537 - Zito is signed through 2013:

7 years/$126M (2007-13), plus 2014 club option

524
I'm not much of an NBA fan, but if Joakim Noah came to play on the Lakers, I would buy tickets to just come down and boo him.

And heckle him.

And perhaps get arrested.

537 - Oops, sorry Pierre. Yeah, two years after. But $9M won't mean that much by then.

539
Would you buy me a ticket to fly out and boo him with you?

I'm not much of a Laker fan, but if Joakim Noah come to play on the Lakers and Kobe was on the Bulls, I'd actually use my seats instead of selling them. The combination of Turiaf and Joakiim cheerleading from the sidelines would be inspirational.

What's the story on Noah?

Well he built an ark... but besides that, I don't remember what caused all the venom... Does it have something to do with UCLA?

541
Do you want first class or will business class be OK?

539 - Noah strikes me as the kind of guy that you despise until he ends up playing for your team, and you appreciate his, um, "flair". Or maybe "enthusiasm" is a better word.

It's tough to pull off a 3-way trade, which is essentially what this Kobe-to-Bulls deal is. Kobe is basically a 3rd GM, only he has every incentive to swing a deal that benefits not only him, but one of the other teams involved. That makes any trade scenario two-against-one, and I'm afraid poor Mitch Kupchak is overwhelmed even on a level playing field.

If I was a GM, I would never allow a no-trade clause to be put on the table in any negotiation.

From the glossy pages:

Andruw Jones
2006: 22.0% HR/FB
2007: 13.4% HR/FB

but remember this guy

Carlos Beltran
2004: 16.6% HR/FB
2005: 8.8% HR/FB
2006: 21.1% HR/FB

His team destroyed UCLA and he made the mistake of enjoying it.

545
That may be so. But I'm not going to appreciate him under any circumstances.

There are fewer college players coming to the NBA, I have hoped will become washouts more than he.

Joakim Noah is the multicultural Christian Laettner!

544
I'd settle for one of those roomy seats at the front of the plane where you don't have to sit with the riffraff and you get special treatment from the flight attendants.

546
If they hadn't Kobe would be a Clipper. He was a Clipper anyway for the few minutes when he said yes to Elgin and then got cold feet and reneged on the deal.

536
My nightmare would be for Colletti to trade for Joe Crede and actually give up something to get him.

Williams: Sure we can talk about Crede. What can you give me?
Colletti: How about Ethier?
Williams: Hmmm...what about that LaRoche kid. I hear that he is a real bad apple. Maybe we can do something with him. Give me him and that Meloan kid and you got a deal.
Colletti (thought bubble): Keep it cool, Keep it cool
Colletti: Well...OK.

A good predictor of BABIP is line driver percentage. I believe it is LD% + .120 Looking at A.Jones LD%,BABIP the past couple years they are.
2002, 20.0%, .290 (U)
2003, 20.8%, .297 (U)
2004, 15.8%, .305 (O)
2005, 16.0%, .244 (U+)
2006, 19.0%, .270 (U)
2007, 17.2%, .248 (U+)
Career, 18.1%, .283, (U)

A.Jones has a trend of underperforming his expected BABIP based on LD%. Two years by quite alot, and in 2004 he actually overperformed it by quite alot. His problem last year was #1 he was a bit unlucky on his BABIP and #2 he didn't hit enough balls "out of play" (HRs). He hadn't hit that few home runs since 1999. His BB/K was right at his career norms. He will be 31 years old the first month of the 2008 season and may in fact have another couple of decent years left in him, but I wouldn't sign him to a long term deal given the risk of a further decline, especially into his mid 30s and beyond. There are other options out there worth taking a look at first imo, if it's a CFer we are looking for. Like others, I wouldn't want to see the Dodgers sign a new CFer, only then to move Pierre to LF. That's just one step forward and one step back. vr, Xei

Martina Hingis said Thursday she has been accused of testing positive for cocaine at Wimbledon, and then announced her retirement from professional tennis.

It still has a ways to go if it wants to catch up to the inanimate carbon rod, but it's a start.

http://nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=110566

552 - Fortunately, it sounds like the Yankees are going after him. Ned might wait out the ARod sweepstakes and miss out on Crede. Shucks.

554 - Party Girl!

I assume that Lakers are afraid that if they don't trade Kobe, he'll tank this year and cause problems.

While I understand that fear, the Lakers need to keep in mind that tanking hurts Kobe too. If the whines and complains and loafs and causes problems all year, it's not gonna help his next contract any.

509 Brad Penny was on the radio yesterday -- Loose Cannons, I think, but I was racing to the airport -- and he loves Torii Hunter. Thinks he's a great hitter. He was lobbying to get him. Without saying so, it sounded like he was not a Pierre fan.

555
Uhhhh...you're smarter than me.

531 So, based on the number of home runs Jones hit in 2007 and his HR/F, he hit about 195 fly balls.

If I assume he had his 2005 HR/F, that would translate to 50 home runs.

If I just add 24 home runs to his 2007 totals (i.e., he has his 2005 HR/F), he puts up a line of: .264/.347/.580.

In 2005, his line was: .263/.347/.575

Of course, I'm assuming those extra home runs turned to outs and not doubles or triples. But he hit essentially the same number of doubles (27 in 2007, 24 in 2005) and less triples (2 in 2007, 3 in 2005).

Joe Girardi took 27 as his jersey number... Anyone know what number World Series win their next one will be?
Lame.

551 Then I'd put more money and incentives on the table. A six-pack of Ferraris. A small island nation. A new kitchen dinette set. A conjugal visit from Jeannie Buss.

Anything but a no-trade clause.

557 - But with the way NBA contracts are basically "capped", there's just no way that Kobe would ever be considered less than a max-contract player. It's going to be very tough for him to jeopardize anything more than his reputation in all of this. And reputations are easily mended in the NBA (see Vince Carter and Kobe himself post-Colorado).

563
Maybe you're right. But I still don't think the Lakers should consider keeping Kobe to be a huge threat. The guy is competitive enough that he won't like playing poorly or sitting out every game.

Although I do like Torre coming to LA..The Dodgers second half melt down was not all on Grady! Maybe the one that should have got the axe was Ned! He really did nothing to improve the team at the trading deadline...Wells,Loaiza,Sweeney?? Gee thanks Ned!!

Yeah, Vince is a great example.

562
I agree, it has created a huge mess.

Wells did his job. No one should be complaining about what David Wells did for us.

If for some reason it got to Kobe intentionally harming the best interests of the team, I'd like to see Laker management just sit him on the pine or suspend him liken to what the Eagles did with Terrouble Owens. I'd rather see the Lakers get a high lottery pick than let Kobe blow up the team by forcing a terrible trade. Unlikely to happen though. vr, Xei

565 While there's plenty to blame on Ned, the trade deadline is not one of them. There was absolutely nothing worth acquiring that wouldn't have cost the farm.

567
No complaints here about last year, but do we really need to sign him for next year?

Right!?! Are you talking about that awsome drag bunt for a single against the Mets...come on!

565.
Poor+------Ned---Grady-----------Average job --------------+Good
If Grady goes based on performance, then by that logic Ned should go too. But [Rule 1 Violation] rolls down hill.
vr, Xei

Ned needs to burn his SF Giants roster and start bringing in some players that can actually play!

Kobe isn't being traded this year. The Lakers are bound to realize that they are going to get nothing near equal value for him and decide to wait until after this season. Or, they are going to start looking at other players they can trade to improve the team.

As for the Jones discussion, only if it means Pierre gets traded. At this point, I'd prefer an outfield of Young/Kemp/Either (left to right) over all the alternatives.

What is the forumla for expected batting average on balls in play based on LD&, GB%, etc?

It's so obvious to me that Grady bit the bullet for the team and played the players that Ned promised playing time too in the offseason. I think deep down he feels he failed because he toed the company line and did not do what he felt was right deep down in his heart. I feel that those are the personal reasons he won't discuss. Ned then basically blamed him for half of it and Grady was like I can't do this again. At least that's what I think.

On the laker front I will simply ask this..in the last 3 years who has done their job to the best of their ability?

A. Kobe
b. phil
c. mitch
d. buss

567 I personally like Wells and his no bs style. He is a regular guy who happens to have been a great pitcher. He pitched decently and kept his club in games. He certainly didn't hurt hte club last year.

Matt Kemp is on the front page of SI.com right now. The slug: The Dodgers could deal young talent like Matt Kemp for a proven arm.

The related article is Nate Silver's piece that Jon quoted above.

in the last 3 years who has done their job to the best of their ability?

To the best of their ability or the job they've been assigned to do?

*the

What's the deal with required interviews of minority candidates and getting exemptions? I don't want to go Rule 5 here, but seems kind of token-ish.

575. LD% + .120 =~ BABIP
correct me if i'm wrong. :)
vr, Xei

682 Isn't there a more exact formula though?

578

They "could" deal him... there's no indication that the Dodgers want to. Thankfully Jon Heyman doesn't want them to.

whoops! I should say Nate Silver, not Jon Heyman.

Sorry if this is a repeat, but new The Fielding Bible is out and ranked Andruw as the best defensive CF in the majors in 2007. Feliz won honors as the best 3B and Tulo got the nod at SS. Aaron Hill prevailed over Hudson at 2B, and Pujols surpassed all 1B

586 - That's going into the glossy pages.

578, 584-This is the problem with stuff like this. They "could" deal him, indeed, just as Nate Silver or Bill Plaschke (not to lump those two together) "could" find some other line of speculation besides the one they do but they don't. So the rest of us get all worked up over something that has no basis in reality.

More and more I just think punditry (of which I'm as guilty as the next guy) is the root of all evil.

Miggy is available.

http://tinyurl.com/2zb8rf

Disclaimer: It's Gammons.

Nate Silver:

There is no bigger disconnect in baseball than the Dodgers' ability to develop talent and the front office's lack of appreciation for that talent.

I have to disagree. They got Loney into the lineup and he thrived, just a bit late. They got Kemp into the lineup, though he didn't get as many at-bats as he should have. I think the Dodgers fully appreciate them and have no inclination at all to trade them. I expect them to be starters in 2008.

Silver is pushing for LaRoche and Hu to be in the lineup next year. He may be right on LaRoche, and I'm guessing the Dodgers will put him there too, eventually, if they don't sign A-Rod. But I'm not as convinced Hu is ready, and I don't think their unwillingness to play these two right away is a huge disconnect. It is not so much a disconnect as a conservative approach.

Even more importantly, Silver is pushing for the Dodgers to hold, whereas I see no reason for them not to bring in A-Rod. We've had a more coherent message here on DT -- bring in stars if you are going to sign a veteran free agent, rather than a washed-up vet, and to bring in stars that complement the young players while they are cheap. This is much better than just bringing up every young player you've got, which is what Silver is suggesting.

588 I don't like trades that involve pitching for hitting. It is too risky because you are giving up a commodity like Matt Kemp who is "likely" to hit 35+ homeruns a year for a long time while getting a pitcher of a Johan Santana type is something the Dodgers need, it is too risky.
I think chance of injury makes this too risky. A proven pitcher is great until they get hurt, so I would rather see the Dodgers keep a hitter and take risks with pitchers in the free agent market or thru their system. That is why the Schmidt signing doesn't bother me at all. The worst case scenerio happened with Schmidt, but they didn't lose anything except a draft pick and money. But to lose Kemp and then get Santana who has pitched a lot of innings in his career just seems like you are banking on too much. I would rather be patient with trying to find pitching thru the farm or with a steal of a trade.

578
What I envision happening is something like the following: Kemp or LaRoche are included in a deal for a premium starting pitcher. And then -- guess what -- you do have a hole at LF or 3B, .... But it isn't a hole that existed before; it's one that you've created. The behavior is literally almost pathological, a kind of Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, in which Colletti seems determined to make the Dodgers sick so that he can make them well again.

This strikes me as over the top. Calmer voices in this blog's comments section have rightfully countered when lesser suggestions of Colletti's incompetence surface.

If the Dodgers feel like they have to have a 94-win club instead of an 88-win club -- and there's no reason they should feel that way after drawing almost 4 million fans last year -- ...

I have to disagree with Silver here. 88 wins last season do not get an NL West team into the playoffs. Trying to build a 94-win team sounds like a good goal to me, if the ultimate goal is to make, and go as far as possible in, the post-season.

I think Silver swings and misses whenever he does a story about the Dodgers. Most of it is because alot of us know more about our team then he does. It makes me wonder if that is the case with other teams. Alot of what he says makes sense when he talks about other teams, but then I don't know the other 27 teams like I know the Dodgers.

I think Jon would be proud that 600 posts later we are still talking about the original thread.

590 I think Silver is correct in that quote. Ned Colletti did indeed foist Tomko and Hendrickson onto the starting rotation, while Billingsley was waiting in the bullpen. He signed Gonzo to play LF when we already had Kemp ready to go. And he re-signed Nomar knowing full well that the only positions he could play, 1B and 3B, were the ones where two of our best prospects played (Loney and LaRoche). Silver is quite right when he says the Dodgers did not appreciate the talent they already had.

He is wrong, however, in saying the Dodgers should pass on A-Rod in favor of LaRoche. I'm as big a LaRoche fan as anyone, but that's just plain crazy talk.

this is from today's NY Daily Times:

*The Dodgers used a plethora of players at third base last season, including Wilson Betemit, Nomar Garciaparra, Andy LaRoche and Tony Abreu. Betemit was traded to the Yankees last summer for Scott Proctor, and the Dodgers do not consider the other three worthy candidates to start next season.

Even before the Dodgers and Joe Torre began talking, the team had internal discussions about pursuing A-Rod if he opted out of his contract.

"They're going to be players for A-Rod," the source said. "I don't know if they'll get him, but they're going to try."*

i'm not sure i buy this, but if we're hell-bent on adding a new 3b, i'd rather have a-rod at any cost than trade laroche for crede or sign p. feliz.

590 I think that was the consenus way back in 2 and 4 .

criminy. i tried to use the asterisk move but i guess it has to be in the *same

paragraph*

597 This thread's been up so long, it's already in reruns.

558
I wonder if he thinks Matt Kemp is a "great hitter".

599
Does Jon get residuals?

595 for what it's worth, I am glad that Billingsley wasn't thrust into the rotation right away. I think he built his confidence up in the pen as the 6-7th inning guy and learned some things that may have been hard to do being a starter come hell or high water.

567 I like David Wells; he is a tough competitor, gives what he has, and I think we genuinely enjoys the game. I think the Dodgers got what they could realistically expect from him, more in some starts and less in others. I was just saying that I doubt Wells is pivotal in LA's plans for 2008 (and beyond) and it seemed weird to me for Dylan Hernandez to ask for his agent's comments on the Torre/L.A. story. (I would love to hear Wells tell some Torre anecdotes, though; that might be great.)

558

I remember Penny looking out at Pierre with an annoyed expression at the beginning of the year when a runner took second on "the ground ball to the outfield double"

595
Other than money, I can see no rational explanation of why ARod's negatives outweigh his positives.

LaRoche could be good, great even. But when compared with ARod it is asinine to assume that he should be given a shot if it sacrifices the opportunity to get ARod. Or even Miggy for that matter.

We are not the Sox who have a good chemistry; we are not the Rockies, who have four legit power bats in their lineup. We have absolutely nothing to lose with ARod other than money. And the ultimate litmus test of that is that I, a middle class guy, would pay 15-20% more for a ticket if he comes.

596 All teams for whom ARod is not automatically economically unrealistic should have "had internal discussions about pursuing A-Rod if he opted out of his contract." The Dodgers would not have been doing their jobs if they didn't discuss it.

I'm just sitting here trying to figure what numbers Feliz, Crede, and AJones will want....

and I'm wondering when in July Kemp will get called up

TC, just pointing this out because you say it so often, but there are 30 teams in baseball.

hey regfairfield,

Did you ever mention a slightly more accurate formula for BABIP than BABIP = LD% + .12? I thought I remembered you mentioning it once.

609 I don't think he counts Tampa Bay or Kansas City

I keep forgetting that basebal never followed up with the contraction idea.

609. Only if you count the Giants and Angels.
vr, Xei

Tampa Bay is my 2nd favorite team and KC is my 3rd so that is not possible.

you just like Tampa Bay because they are willing to play our younger players more than we are

608
Kemp should be finishing his rehab in AAA from the knee injury he suffered when Repko slammed into him trying to cut off a single by Bengie Molina by July 18th.

610 These numbers are off the top of my head, they could be off by a bit.

Counting only balls in play:

LD% .75 + GB% .3 + OutfieldFB .12 + InfieldFB .01/Total balls in play

The should have been multiplication symbols in there, but they apparently got formatted.

618 That's okay. It makes sense. Thanks.

Fires net a baseball victim.
From BP
"According to a press release from the Tigers, Joel Zumaya underwent surgery on Wednesday after being injured moving personal items to protect them from the Southern California fires. Zumaya had an AC joint reconstruction performed on his pitching shoulder at the Scripps Clinic in San Diego. The press release says that Zumaya will be out until mid-season, though there are no good comps for this type of injury to this type of pitcher. More information as it becomes available. "

Off-season surreality continues apace:

"Tigers reliever Joel Zumaya is expected to be sidelined until midseason after injuring his throwing shoulder while moving items during the California wildfires."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3090054

620 /621 - call me old fashioned, but I'm not taking anything from my house with a wildfire looming that I can't carry with one hand. Clothes, lap top, some old family photos that have yet to be scanned to said lap top, and probably the humidors.

620 621 I didn't think Guitar Hero was that heavy.

617. Thanks for the formula too. The LD% + .120 is usually used because LD% is the one factor in that equation that jumps around alot (has the most variation). Most fly balls and groundballs are outs at very similiar rates, but not so much line drives due to their projectory.
vr, Xei

620. When I glossed over that the first time I thought he got hurt carrying an Air Conditioning (AC) unit out of his house. :)

624. tra

vr, Xei

So what if Hingis was high while on the court?
-the '86 Mets

Anyone else a Sports Illustrated subscriber? A Slate column takes issue (ha!) with what the columnist thinks is its recent slide in quality.

http://tinyurl.com/2r4ww8

I kinda sorta agree. I've been subscribing for 30 years, and it seems to me it's taken on People Magazine overtones -- athlete as celebrity.

The Triple-A Toledo Mud Hens have sent baseball's most coveted free agent a contract offer that includes incentives if he hits 75 home runs for them next season.

The team conjured up the idea after Rodriguez opted out of his $252 million, 10-year contract with the Yankees.

Oh, I mean the print version. The columnist doesn't like the website but does like the writers. ;)

Arron Afflalo is going to start for the Detroit Pistons tonight.

Go AA!

full story...

http://tinyurl.com/3xofeh

Just checking out BP for the 1st time in a while. Not sure if these had been posted but here are some funny comments from Jim Baker during his Oct 30th Chat:

Tim (DC): Can A-Rod move back to SS and be effective defensively or has that ship sailed?
Jim Baker: I don't see why he was ever moved off of shortstop to begin with. As I wrote at the time, if Captain Jetes was the selfless Yankee god everyone said he was, he would have taken a step to the right to let the superior fielder have the key position. In the long run, I doubt it cost the more than a game or two over four years, but I still like saying it. A-Rod's fielding numbers looked a lot better this year. Having him at shortstop generates so much offense and frees up another offense generating position, so it would make up for anything he's lost with the glove.

ssjames (Santa Ana, CA): You don't mention the Dodgers as a potential spot for A-Rod, is there a reason for that?
Jim Baker: Sure, put 'em on the list. What a waste it would be having Juan Pierre in front of ARod. All those outs. All those empty bases where runners could have been if somebody else was hitting there...

Rider11 (Santa Barbara, CA): I see Grady Little resigned for "personal reasons." Since when is "They are hiring someone else to do my job" a "personal reason?"
Jim Baker: When you "take it personally" that you were replaced.

The Slate article about SI is the topic of the day on Bronx Banter.

Actually, SI was the first topic of the day on Bronx Banter, but they've moved on.

Does anyone know if Lowe is or will be a free agent?

620 621 send that story to larry david. he could use it . . .

Does anyone know if Lowe is or will be a free agent?

Yes, but I'm not sure when.

635
After this season.

638 And his agent is Scott Boras, so he will be entertaining as many suitors as possible.

Why wouldnt LA go after Lowell, he's alot cheaper then Arod and a pretty dam good RBI guy?

Boras needs to go crawl in a cave somewhere and die...

640

hoo boy...

Kobe-Bulls trade is off accounding to John Paxson.

http://tinyurl.com/2ukpza

640
We may be going after Lowell. I do not think any of us know what Ned will do.

642

To answer the question, Lowell is not going to be cheap. Secondly, we already have LaRoche who will end up being much cheaper than even Lowell. I'll let other posters fill in the rest.

BranCamJosh, sorry if 642 sounded snarky too you.

Lowell's 33 and only getting older, so he's due to regress. Too lazy to say more. Someone else will.

640 Lowell is an average hitter who had his stats inflated massively by Fenway. We already have Andy LaRoche who is likely just as good, if not better, offensively and bit behind him defensively. Since LaRoche is much cheaper, and more likely to improve, there's no reason for Lowell.

643
I do not even know what to think anymore. I am just getting fed up with that franchise. David Stern should do something useful for once and force the Buss family to sell the team.

LaRoche? So your going to count on him to produce at 3rd this year? I dont know? Yea your right Lowell wont be cheap but alot cheaper then Arod! Then we could spend more $$ on..I dont know...PITCHING?!?!? I dont think LaRoche is the answer..sorry!

647 In fact, he'll be 34 early in spring training. Career OPS+ of 110.

I smell a wumpus.

650 Pretty much. The reason that Lowell is much cheaper than A-Rod is he's much worse. Players who walk more than they strikeout in the minors and hit for power rarely don't become productive major leaguers.

628 - It would be like Ned to be outbid by a Triple A team for A-Rod! Ned "Juan Pierre is more valuable because he gets on base a lot" LOL
Seriously, The Dodgers should make a serious play for A-Rod to dramatically upgrade the middle of the lineup, for marketing and trinkle down effects of other players thinking "This team is serious about winning". I'm in the land ARod or do nothing camp! Main thing - Don't mess with the core kids!!

650
There is no good pitching to spend money on.

There is old man Schilling or old man Pettite.

LogikReader- not at all..

650 We should have counted on Loney from the beginning last season. We should have counted on Kemp from the beginning last season. Loney came in and produced. Kemp came in and produced. Billingsley, Broxton, Martin, Ethier before them. What do you have against giving LaRoche a chance? The kids have succeeded before him. They have a pretty good track record. Who's to say Lowell won't revert back to his 77 OPS+ of 2005? That could be just as likely as LaRoche doing poorly.

657 I wouldn't say that. Lowell's 2005 was pretty much terrible BABIP induced.

Bob, thanks. Interesting discussion over there.

Right now I'd rather see Abreu at 3rd...sorry from what I seen last year from LaRoche..I'm not sold just yet

654 - Ideally, I'll like to get Johan also, but the price in trade of quality young players maybe too high. Other teams seem to ask for even for from an LA team than they would from a St. Louis for someone like Johan.

658 Yeah I didn't really look it up. I just said the first thing that came to my head.

658 Like Andruw Jones' 2007? Lowell had a significant HR drop in '05 also.

Young and Hu for Johan?

Torre is on Mike & the Mad Dog's show on WFAN now. Says he is definitely negotiating with the Dodgers, but nothing has been finalized yet. Sounds like they are just wrapping up details.

Says he hated the Dodgers when he was growing up in Brooklyn. :-)

661 - I met "even more" not even for. Oops!

660. That would be pretty much a waste of Abreu's biggest asset, his strong defense up the middle, he has neither the power nor the patience to be more than a temporary filler at 3rd, while LaRoche has shown both power and patience at all levels.
664. An offer like that would probably make the Dodger's the laughing stock of baseball.

Oh no, I got the dreaded post No. 666 - bad omen. We won't get Torre now, we'll end up with another Tracy clone!

664 If the Twins will take Young and Hu for Johan, and if the Dodgers get signals that Johan will be willing to sign a contract extension instead of filing for free agency next year, then yes, absolutely.

However, if I were the Twins, I would start by asking for Kershaw, Kemp, and Loney, and if the Dodgers came back with Young and Hu, I would stop returning their phone calls.

Great article (Slate on SI). Thanks for posting that.

I agree with every word of it. SI has indeed turned into ESPN Lite.

667 For offering too much, or too little? Because I'm sure teams offer much worse all the time (i.e. Kemp for Wells).

664. When what would you suggest they offer?

Perhaps BranCamJosh can fill us in on the latest developments in the Furcal to White Sox trade.

673. BranCamJosh is just talking Dodger baseball..if and what if's...

670 Never having read ESPN the Magazine, I wouldn't know. I do think it's got all the worst parts of People, Us, and all the tabloid-y entertainment glossies. Am I supposed to care about some pro athlete's workouts? Or the pop culture awareness of four athletes?

I've kept subscribing out of habit, but I wonder if I might not be better served just buying the three or four issues a year which cover important sports events (the World Series and the Super Bowl) in true reporting fashion. At $3.50 a copy (or whatever the newsstand price is) I'd be saving money over the $85/year it is now.

672 Personally, I wouldn't offer anything, unless I was sure as sure could be that Santana would sign a contract extension. If he's determined to be a free agent, I would get in on the bidding in 2008 instead.

If I was sure as sure could be that he would sign an extension with whatever team got him... I'd have to think about it. Ethier would be a part of the deal. They would want a young arm -- McDonald is probably the guy I'd part with. And a reliever -- Broxton or Meloan, I guess.

That looks like a very tough package to part with... is it worth it for the rights to draw up a contract with Santana, if you know for sure that you won't get to sign him as a free agent? I don't know.

676 That deal is a no brainer to me. Getting Johan probably puts us over the top and doesn't hurt us much in the following years.

The WFAN guys added that Torre is off to some family function this weekend and not LA, so don't expect an announcement tomorrow. Monday was their guess.

677 If it's a no-brainer, then I've probably undershot and the Twins wouldn't accept such an offer.

ARLINGTON -- The Rangers will save $21.3 million over the next three years now that Alex Rodriguez has opted out of the remainder of his 10-year, $252 million contract with the New York Yankees....

679 I agree. Johan is worth so much to a team that wants to win now that needs one more piece, and someone like the Mets should be willing to shell out a ton to get him.

The Dodgers already have Nomar and LaRoche at third base, there is no need to spend a big chunk of money on Lowell who would block LaRoche and have a good chance of regressing (due to age and park factors). I don't have any heartburn canning the Nomar/LaRoche 3B duo if we can get the likes of AROD, but not for Lowell. I also don't see how you can make a decision against LaRoche based on such a small sample size of major league at bats. He is young and compared to where most other hitters his age are playing at along with his minor league track record, I'd say he's worth giving a fair look at the starting 3B job this year. The situation is ideal for LaRoche, as he can gently slide into the 3B position, sharing time with Nomar, then taking over for him next year. If LaRoche does indeed prove to be a bust (for whatever reason), then you can cross that bridge next year. I just don't see how signing Lowell to a long-term deal makes any sense. In fact it doesn't!
vr, Xei

682 A-Rod can play SS.

If the twins would take Young and Hu for Santana I can careless if it's for more than a year guarnteed. We can cross that bridge later!!!

679
I want to suggest a trade involving Furcal so that we could make space for ARod while keeping LaRoche, but I am terrified of what the season would look like if Pierre batted leadoff an average of 5 times per game for 162 games.

A healthy Furcal gives you a .295/.370/.440 type season from your leadoff as opposed to Pierre's numbers which, like Voldemort, must not be named.

What a mess that guy has caused...

683. I suppose he can, though others have commented that he bulked up a little bit to play 3B and hit for more power. I'm not sure how this relates to my post, as it was more about Lowell and LaRoche than AROD. :)
vr, Xei

681 Which means that in order to get him to the Dodgers, the key piece is probably Kershaw. Check that -- probably Kershaw and Kemp.

Even if we were guaranteed that Santana would sign an extension, I think I'd rather stick with Kershaw and Kemp. But maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

No way do you trade either Kemp or Kershaw

682
I expect the Yankee's to go very hard after Lowell.

I can understand some reservations about LaRoche related to his health. In the last 16 months he's had problems with both his shoulders and we now know about a disk problem with his back. The fact he's playing on Team USA is a good thing but we can't just ignore the back issue. It is not going away any faster then Juan Pierre is.

687. I'd probably do that deal, a win-win for both teams (TINSTAAPP). But Santana's 2007 season scares me a little bit.
vr, Xei

My wishful thinking.

Furcal CF
Martin C
A-rod SS
Kemp RF
Loney1b
Kent 2b
Ethier LF
LaNomar 3b

689
On mlbtraderumors.com, they seem to think that a Damon-Crede swap is preferable because it is short term and will free up the DH slot for Giambi without having to have Damon in the field. I think that makes more sense for the Yanks. Lowell is the type that got them into this trouble in the first place.

I personally could see Miggy going there before Lowell.

Furcal CF? Will Kent be back?

691 Might as well go all out and have LaRoche instead of LoNomar. That's what I'm thinking, wishfully.

I would be happy if retain Wolf and do nothing else.

Sadly, that is the least likely scenario.

649
I really don't understand comments like that. The Buss family has been one of the best owners in sports over the last 28 years. They made some big mistakes over the last 3 years but that shouldn't overwrite all the good they did for the other 25 years.
Talk about Yankee fans feeling entitled, they got nothing on some Laker fans.

695
Speaking of that, Wolf has not gotten a contract buyout yet. I wonder if discussions are ongoing to bring him back in the $3-5 mil range. That would be a good, calculated risk for not much more than Hendrickson this year.

I'd also be happy to keep Wolf and not do anything.

696
The Buss family is just like Al Davis. They did a lot of good in the past, but they are going in the complete wrong direction now.

Besides, Jerry no longer pays as much attention to the team as he used to. It is all in Jim's hands and that is very bad for the future.

691
Mine is:
1st - Miggy
2nd - Kent
SS - Arod
3rd - LaRoche
C - Martin
LF - D Young
CF - Kemp
RF - Ethier

I'd second that...Wolfe coming back that is!

700. DREAM ON!

700
Jeez...I would be on board with that too.

This is on the front page of latimes.com

BREAKING NEWS Joe Torre is the new Dodgers manager

700 - Just curious on what it took to get Cabrera in your scenario, seeing as how we hung on to Kemp and LaRoche.

704 missed it by that much...

It's official: Joe Torre is the new manager of the Dodgers.

Torre and the Dodgers finalized what is believed to be a three-year deal today to replace Grady Little, who resigned Tuesday. The contract is believed to be worth around $4 million a season.

It's official: Joe Torre is the new manager of the Dodgers.

Torre and the Dodgers finalized what is believed to be a three-year deal today to replace Grady Little, who resigned Tuesday. The contract is believed to be worth around $4 million a season.

Rosenthal is reporting that the Torre deal is complete...but then again that same sentence has been written in the media about 30 times in the past week.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7399154

Man I am SLLLLLOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW

hehe, so much for Mike & the Mad Dog's credibility (if they had any left)!

Doesn't the Buss family have to sell the Lakers at some point? I thought it was almost impossible for families to hand down the team to their children because of the estates tax.

Its been announced on over the air radio (KSPN Radio) for approx. $4M a year. No word on coaches, I expect instead of a conference call, they will bring out Vin Scully, Tommy Lasorda and McCourt for a presser later today.

712
That is only if they are not cash-rich enough to pay it. Even so, I am sure there are some Chavez Ravine-sized loopholes in the tax code that a good estate/tax attorney can get through.

Torre brings our payroll up to ~100 million right now. It's getting to the point where signing A-Rod might be a bit too unrealistic.

713 Okay, so we won't see that conference until Monday per Tony Jackson,

Joe Torre is coming!!!! Joe Torre is coming!!!!

"It's official. The announcement just came down. The obligatory dog-and-pony show will take place on Monday at 10 a.m. at the Stadium. More when I have time to type it in."

715 as if it was ever realistic in the first place

omg its roger clemens, I mean joe torre, this is one of the most historic days in the history of the yankees, I mean the dodgers...

715 Do management/coaching staff salaries come from the same budget as player salaries?

all of a sudden, the dodgers are great, according to ESPN...championship caliber

Well, cool. This will give my dad something else to talk about other than our sad family situation, which gets old after awhile...

Did I mention my dad loves Joe Torre?

over/under (comment #) on a NPUT?
vr, Xei

715
Isn't it fairly easy to backload a contract for a year the way other teams do it (Soriano, Chipper Jones) to get relief for one year. I think that Nomar, Lowe, Kent, and Furcal ($43 mil) all coming off of the payroll next year with in-house replacements would more than make up for the red ink that we would incur this year.

Dodgers.com story -- Torre, who left the Yankees earlier this month after a run of 12 consecutive years in the playoffs and four World Series wins, agreed to a three-year contract for an estimated $14.5 million. Torre is expected to bring several of his former Yankees coaches with him, including bench coach Don Mattingly and possibly third-base coach Larry Bowa, who also has an offer from Seattle.

Although he was the Dodgers' second choice (they originally pursued Joe Girardi, Torre's eventual replacement with the Yankees), Torre provides the organization instant credibility that could translate into the recruitment of better players, such as free agent and former Yankees slugger Alex Rodriguez, who could fill holes at third base and in the middle of a power-starved batting order.

Torre, 67, walked away from a one-year offer from the Yankees of $5 million plus incentives. But friends say he was eager to return to managing, in part to prove he can win without the Yankees' payroll, the highest in baseball. The Dodgers' payroll of $124 million in 2007 was third-highest.

Torre is expected to have the same input in player personnel matters that Little had, something he apparently did not have in his final years with the Yankees. Little often said that general manager Ned Colletti consulted him on all player moves.

722 765

Now can we get to the stuff that actually matters, like what players are going to be on the team?

{722]
I call 791

723 Perhaps, but doesn't today's financial flexibility come at a price -- namely, when the free agent you signed is older and less valuable, that's when you're paying him the most?

724
That last part is almost laughable. Who knew that Little was our Co-GM.

friends say he was eager to return to managing, in part to prove he can win without the Yankees' payroll, the highest in baseball. The Dodgers' payroll of $124 million in 2007 was third-highest.

That's comedy gold right there.

722

749

722 I am going with 762 (current home run record)

705
Since it is a given that Miggy needs to become a 1st or DH, you give them the best young hitter we had this year and that would be Loney. Then you do have to give up the best pitching prospect in baseball and that would be Kershaw. Then you will need to give up Hu and they can either move Hanley to CF or 3rd. A year ago it wouldn't be possible but no one has increased their value higher then Big Game James Loney in the past 6 months. Is that enough? Not sure, if not I'd throw in Josh Bell or Dewitt and maybe even Meloan.

Somehow I'd get Juan Pierre a White Sox uniform. Kenny has shown a penchant for players with his skill set.

732. I will go with 868, the current international home run record. :)
vr, Xei

Consulted

Ring ring.

Grady: mmmmmmyello.

Ned: Grady! Ned here. Say listen, we're getting Juan Pierre. Whatcha think?

Grady: I don't think he's very good. You really shouldn't do that.

Ned: Thank you for your opinion. We value your input. You can bat Juan anywhere you like in the lineup -- first OR second, up to you.

728
I do not necessarily mean a deal that puts payments off for 10 years, but the final two years could include $10 million of escelators.

Your point is certainly valid, though. The Cubs will be paying Soriano $18 million in 2014.

728 That's very true. However, A-Rod may be a special case since {Boras}the money and interest he could generate while approaching the HR record might make up for his decline as a day-to-day force in the late stages of his contract{/Boras}.

Any word on how much it will cost to buy out Torre's third year...?

735 lol

Grady: (after Ned hangs up) I am gonna bat him 7th once this year, my job be damned.

Perhaps, but doesn't today's financial flexibility come at a price -- namely, when the free agent you signed is older and less valuable, that's when you're paying him the most?

Well if you're locked into a contract, that doesn't really matter unless of course you want to trade that player. But I think that one disadvantage is more than outweighed by being able to have inflation work in your favor (not just general inflation but inflation of baseball contracts, which apart from a brief period in '02 has been quite high each year. If current trends in contracts continue, Juan Pierre's 9 million in his last year will probably seem like a better deal than what he was paid in '07, even factoring in a decline in production.

738 Hah! You can almost count on it. I bet the Dodgers make the playoffs this season, get swept by an east coast team, then miss the postseason the following season and fire Joe Torre after that. We have to stick with the "new every two" plan.

738
LOL - or his second year...

The Dodgers historically don't pay their managers well. The Lakers didn't historically pay their managers well. One day the "inept" Laker owners decided to pony up for one Phil Jackson. 3 years later they had 3 world championships.

Yup. The better over/under is 2 years, for Joe Torre as Dodger manager.

744 I will take the under. Torre goes when Colletti is fired after the 2008 season.

740
I remember in 1996 seeing a graphic that showed someone saying that the highest player in baseball could make more than $18 million by 2006.

I imagine that by 2020 or so, there will be a $1 billion dollar player.

741
By then Walt Jocketty will have taken over the effort to "build a consistent winner".

I'm tired of being cynical. He lasts all three years and Torre's panache allows the Dodgers to reel in FA after FA who agree to play for the mid-level veteran exception just so they can learn at the feet of the mastermind behind the Yankee dynasty.

The press release is out. It's official.

746 I actually think Jocketty is a great guy to have around if you want to win now. Just don't be surprised when your team crumbles four to five years later.

745
If Ned is fired next year, I could see us bringing in Cashman.

750

Hey, that sounds good to me. I'd rather try to emulate the Yankees than the lowly Giants...

748. Wait til post 762 for a NPUT, so we can have a winner. vr, Xei

752 and this one do not count in the NPUT countdown

Joe Torre, the man who guided the New York Yankees to playoff appearances in each of the past 12 seasons before rejecting a one-year contract offer last month, has officially been named the next manager of the Dodgers. Torre will be formally introduced in a press conference on Monday at Dodger Stadium.

Plaschke says that this means Moreno has to get Alex Rodriguez now.

How is this person employed???*

*yes, I have that as a macro

754. That's per Tony Jackson. :-)

http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/

755
Remember Brock, it is impossible to hit homeruns in the Dodger Stadium.

I wonder if Larry Bowe is coming along as well, he has an offer from the Mariners. I think he'd make a heck of a 3rd base coach, heads up guy from everything I've read about him.

755

I'm more surprised people even read his stuff anymore...

758 As long as his nickname isn't "The Windmill™."

714 - that loophole is called life insurance policies. The wealthy buy these in various forms to protect their assets so more of those assets can go to their heirs. Because life insurance is 100% tax deductible, the proceeds can then be used to defray inheritance taxes. Of course, these policies are themselves pretty expensive, so it's often not worth it.

I just looked at the A's ZIPS and the following thoughts occured to me:

We have zero organizational depth at catcher.

Jeremy Brown is projected to hit .251/.328/.424 next year.

Why did we not pickup Jeremy Brown when he was waived?

761 I want you to do my taxes since you know so much about taxes. That is great, I never knew life insurance was tax deductible, wow, what a revelation. And to find out that they are so expensive that they aren't even worth it, thanks for the tax advice and financial planning info.

Dodgers buy out option on Wolf

>> The Dodgers now have 10 free agents: Wolf, Luis Gonzalez, Mark Sweeney, Rudy Seanez, David Wells, Mike Lieberthal, Ramon Martinez, Olmedo Saenz, Roberto Hernandez and Tim Hamulack. <<

http://tinyurl.com/3c7cng

763 My sarcasm meter is confused and spinning wildly.

765 as it should be

Why did we not pickup Jeremy Brown when he was waived?

We didn't have a forklift handy.

I kid. Seriously though, he's a Depo/Moneyball guy.

reading the ESPN story on Joe Torre coming to L.A. I didn't realize he was a Giant fan growing up in Brooklyn.

No press conference but I shoulda gone to the track today. 405 .

762
Because we are the exact type of organization that would look at Jeremy Brown and think he would never be of any use.

We are Steve Phillips.

768. That's what probably sealed the deal for Ned.

721 - My dad, born in Brooklyn and lifelong Dodger fan (damned if he doesn't look like Torre too), was PUMPED when I told him this was happening.

770 we are the borg

NPUT!

770

.251/.328/.424

Those numbers don't seem that impressive to me. I'm new to this still... is that

.251 avg
.328 obp
.424 slg?

775 I'd take that from a back-up catcher.

We have a kid in San Bernardino that can hit pretty well (catcher) but I don't know if he can actually catch or call a good game for that matter, Nate Purcell probably has the skinny on the guy though.

733 - Loney, Hu, and Kershaw for Cabrera? Seems fair to me, but I think Loney is my favorite of all the "kids". I know it would be an upgrade, and I know I shouldn't get too attached to these players, but Loney (with Russell too) is the one I really pull for.

I've taken to calling him "Big Game" too, btw. I know it's recycled, but it works for me.

776 Especially for next to nothing.

The post on top is new.

It is rather wonderful to have 10 free agents, none of whom are key players OR well liked D's from our system. It should make it very easy to negotiate, even a softy like me could do it.

I'm LAT'ing myself

721 - Brooklyn will have its revenge (yet)!

There's some type of Star Wars-parallel in there somewhere.