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The Dodgers officially named Joe Torre their manager today. So when do they fire him?
I don't mean that question as a flippant shot at the Dodger leadership, though certainly, with three general managers and three managers since 2004, it wouldn't be out of place. But lost in the gleeful march to Torreville (as exemplified by this Ted Green article on the new local sports site, SportsHubLA), is any thorough examination of whether Torre will actually be a good manager, or at a minimum one fans will be patient with.
The case for Torre has rested largely on him being a proven champion and grade-A personality who will unite the disintegrating Dodger clubhouse back into a winner. Without dismissing these arguments, I think a little skepticism is in order.
In any case, Torre may do better than Grady Little at keeping the Dodgers united when things go bad - but will he be better than the average manager at keeping things from going bad?
Here's what some close Yankee followers have to say about Torre's managerial style:
The lineup
"He prefers a set lineup," says Cliff Corcoran of Bronx Banter, before adding that "Torre does like to play platoon matchups on both sides of the ball. As much as he prefers a set lineup, he'll often drop a given lefty down a spot or two in his batting order against a lefty starter.
"He does appear to be aware of his hitters' performances against opposing pitchers and will often consider those numbers when looking to give a starter a rest or get a reserve a spot start. That sounds good except that he is easily swayed by small samples. Just look at his habit of playing Enrique Wilson against Pedro Martinez in 2003 after Enrique went 2 for 3 with a pair of doubles off Pedro on July 7 of that year.
Here's what Steven Goldman of Baseball Prospectus had to say in his recent close examination of Torre's career:
"Torre preferred a set lineup. He would shuffle the lineup to get a player out of a key role if he was slumping, but otherwise he found something that worked for him and stuck with it. This applied not only to individual seasons, but year-to-year.
"The Yankees often looked for leadoff hitters because Torre had decided that Derek Jeter was a #2 hitter regardless of the team's needs. Torre would sometimes relent, but only after another player had failed or gotten hurt.
"In the playoffs he was more proactive, benching Tino Martinez, Alfonso Soriano, and Jason Giambi, and famously dropping Alex Rodriguez in the batting order last year."
Goldman felt that Torre mainly platooned when forced to.
"When neither Ricky Ledee nor Shane Spencer took control of the Yankees left field job in 1999, he platooned them," Goldman said. "He selectively platooned Bobby Abreu with Shelley Duncan in the second half of 2007, and half-heartedly tried a Mientkiewicz/Josh Phelps platoon in the first half of the season. When Torre lacked a regular at a position he tried to let someone get hot and play themselves into a job rather than try to patch something together."
Goldman also noted that Torre will sometimes choose a good glove over a good bat.
"Torre keep Scott Brosius in the lineup in 1999 and 2000 despite batting performances that were enormously hurtful to the Yankees," he wrote. "Similarly, in the early years he deemphasized Wade Boggs for Charlie Hayes. He seemed to agonize over Jason Giambi's defense at first (though any manager might have done so), and gave crazy amounts of playing time to Miguel Cairo, Enrique Wilson, and Doug Mientkiewicz, who sure as heck weren't in the lineup for their bats. Curiously, Torre's concern with defense did not extend to the outfield, where he seemed to be incapable of seeing the defensive problems of an aging Bernie Williams, Hideki Matsui, and others."
Veterans vs. rookies
"Looking at the 2008 Dodgers," Corcoran says, "if the team decides to start the season with (Andre) Ethier and (Matt) Kemp in the outfield corners and (James) Loney and (Andy) LaRoche at the infield corners, Torre will give the youngsters a long rope. A player has to be really bad for a really long time to lose a starting job he's been given by Joe Torre. The challenge for young players, however, is getting that starting job in the first place.
"If Ned Colletti brings in another 'proven veteran' outfielder, or if Nomar (Garciaparra) has a blazing hot spring training and reclaims the third-base job, you're unlikely to see a change in the lineup before June, if at all, no matter how poorly the vets play.
"The one exception there, particularly regarding Nomar, is injury. Torre is not above allowing a young player to Wally Pipp a vet. If the team and the youngster excel while the vet is on the DL, that vet could come back to a spot on the bench, as (Jason) Giambi and Doug Mientkiewicz did this year. Heck, even Johnny Damon lost his center-field job to injury this year, and he didn't spend a day on the DL. Of course it took until June for that to happen."
Said Goldman: "Two of Torre's most notable rookies, Derek Jeter and Alfonso Soriano, got their jobs through fluke circumstances where there was no choice other than to play them; in the former case it was a combination of an organizational decision that predated Torre's hiring and Tony Fernandez's spring training injury, while in the latter, throwing problems forced (Chuck) Knoblauch off of second base.
"It's mostly forgotten now, but in the spring of 1996 it was reported that Torre was a bit uncomfortable with the idea of having a rookie at shortstop. As in the previously cited cases of Knoblauch and Bernie Williams, Torre would give long-term Yankees every chance to keep their jobs. In 2006 he fell in love with Terrence Long for about two minutes, talking up his experience.
"In part, his preference for old men was able to assert itself so strongly during the later Yankees years because the farm system didn't give him great alternatives. If there was a problem, he was usually in the position of picking between players like Aaron Guiel and Kevin Thompson, not Aaron Guiel and Chris Young."
Power vs. speed
Don't expect Juan Pierre to be benched anytime soon.
"Even though the Yankees often had a power-hitting lineup, Torre liked speed," Goldman said. "His Yankees clubs were more interested in the stolen base than any non-Rickey Henderson Yankees teams of the modern era. This extended to leading off Alfonso Soriano for two years though he was the most impatient hitter on the club, putting (Tony) Womack in the lineup, keeping Johnny Damon in the leadoff spot despite a rough year in 2007, experimenting with Kenny Lofton in 2004, and the continual non-benching of a fading Knoblauch."
Offensive game strategy
"Outside of a heavy hand on the hit-and-run and a tendency to pinch-run for lumbering sluggers (most recently Giambi and Posada) an inning or two too early in close games, his managing generally doesn't intrude on the game," Corcoran says. "If he has a player who can steal, he lets him steal, but he doesn't get tricky by double stealing with slower players on the back end. He's judicious with the bunt, which is good, but almost never squeezes, which is bad. As I said, he overuses the hit-and-run in double play situations, often resulting in a K-CS double play, or having the runner doubled-up on a line drive.
"He also tends to consider handedness over overall ability when choosing pinch-hitters (or mid-inning relievers)."
I asked Corcoran to elaborate on Torre's bunting habits, because it was hard for me to imagine that squeezing with the Yankee lineup would be an issue.
"He didn't squeeze enough, because he didn't squeeze at all in recent years. The Yankees didn't have one successful squeeze in the last four seasons, at least, and I only remember one unsuccessful attempt in that span, which came in a blowout in Baltimore in late 2006. Meanwhile the Yankees were in many game situations in which a squeeze would give them a tie or a lead late in a game that they went on to lose.
"As for the bunt, 34 of those 41 bunts were by Melky Cabrera, Andy Phillips, Doug Mientkieiwcz, Miguel Cairo, Jose Molina, Wil Neives, and Tyler Clippard. Derek Jeter tends to bunt on his own every now and then, which is frustrating, but he only did so three times last year. Torre uses the bunt wisely. He uses it primarily in close, late-inning situations with his weakest hitters bunting to set up men in scoring position for as the lineup rolls over for his big boppers. He'll bunt early if he's facing a shut-down pitcher (such as late-90s Pedro Martinez), but there's logic to that as well. In essence, he treated his nine-spot hitters like the pitcher in the NL, and most of his bunts came from the last couple spots in the order."
Goldman corroborated much of what Corcoran had to say.
"In his first season with the Yankees, Torre billed himself as a 'National League manager,'" Goldman wrote. "This mostly displayed itself in the frequent use of the hit-and-run, though that year Torre also called more bunts and squeeze plays than he would in any other season. He rapidly cut back on bunting and squeezing, and with his powerhouse teams of the late 1990s, he mostly stayed out of their way. Post-2001 he was a little more active with the one-run strategies, but was never fanatical about it. This was one of Torre's best qualities as a manager: he recognized the kind of team he had and didn't try to play a style of offense unsuited to the roster."
Starting pitching
"He pays careful attention to pitch counts," Corcoran says, "rarely allowing a starter to surpass 120 tosses, and often getting them out soon after they hit triple-digits. He'll bend those rules for veterans who are cruising, but he's not above pulling a pitcher with a 5-0 lead with two outs in the ninth if the guy gives up a pair of hits, and often pulls young starters too early, bailing at the first sign of trouble past 80 pitches."
Goldman noted that Torre became more careful with starting pitchers after the 2003 season. In the past two years, a Yankee starting pitcher threw more than 120 pitches in a game only once.
Bullpen usage
"The problem with his being so careful about overtaxing his starters, of course, is that he winds up burning out his bullpen," Corcoran says, adding that Torre "likes to slot his relievers into designated roles (closer, eighth-inning guy, seventh-inning guy, primary lefty, secondary lefty, long-man).
"I wrote an article on Banter ("The Lesson of Stevie Hearsay") about Torre's habit of latching on to a particular set-up man and pitching his arm off. Luis Vizcaino was his man in 2007 before Joba Chamberlain (protected by the organization's Joba Rules) rode to Viz's rescue. Everyday Scotty Proctor was Torre's man in 2006. Beware, Jonathan Broxton.
"Torre's other big bullpen bugaboo is the fact that he's loathe to bring his closer into a tied game on the road, and has lost many such contests by working from the bottom of the pen up, rather than the top down in such situations. I've dubbed this 'Jeff Weaver Syndrome' after his use of Weaver in such a situation in Game 4 of the 2003 World Series (you can find some of my writing on this subject by searching "Jeff Weaver Syndrome" on Banter)."
And so ...
Reflecting upon this, I see a great deal of similarity between Torre and Little. Not complete similarity, but I'm not sure there's enough difference to be significant. I don't expect that the lineup Torre puts on the field in April will be much different than what Little would have sent out there. The main difference might be that there will be less shuffling along the lines of Ethier-Kemp-Luis Gonzalez.
And even though Little had trouble with pitching changes and knowing when to pinch-hit, I'm not assured that Torre has a significantly better grasp. My biggest problem with Little would be when he let a pitcher bat and then let him face only one or two more batters. That might be an area that Torre improves the team, but on the other hand, Torre has his blind spots too.
I think it's also worth noting that in his two seasons in Los Angeles, Little did not get in hot water with the Dodger front office or the media. In fact, Little was widely considered a hit with the players, at least as far as anyone let on. The only criticism in this area that emerged was that when the clubhouse fell apart, Little couldn't repair it - in fact, Little might have even contributed to it. So perhaps, perhaps, Torre could have kept the team afloat heading into that pivotal series in Colorado that killed the Dodgers and launched the Rockies into the postseason.
But there's a whole lot of other stuff running a team – stuff that a manager can control and stuff that he can't. It would be imprudent for me to say that Torre is a bad hire, but the notion of him as a panacea strikes me as a reach. The team may still falter with him, or might be great despite him. In the end, the manager is a middleman, and needs support from above and below.
Update: From Jay Jaffe of Baseball Prospectus, in the comments below:
Having watched Torre at close range for 12 years from my New York vantage, I have fewer reservations regarding his taking over the Dodgers than I think most of you do here. Yes, he has his foibles, but he's also shown himself to be more adaptable than commonly given credit for. He handled the in-season integration of Robinson Cano and Melky Cabrera into the lineups pretty well, and particularly this past year, showed that he wasn't afraid to bench expensive, gimpy and ineffective veterans like Johnny Damon and Jason Giambi. Yet he was also able to quell any major clubhouse dissent over those moves, which is pretty impressive.
A few other things to add:
Not much I can disagree with, far as the post.
---
Going back to the last thread, I was wondering about that A's catcher... and his projections
.251/.328/.424
Those numbers don't seem that impressive to me. I'm new to this still... is that
.251 avg
.328 obp
.424 slg?
I suppose that is pretty good if he is just starting out.
And certainly not enough to warrant a salary six times a high.
But who cares? This smacks of lipstick on a pig. Now fix what's really important, Ned.
(I think I'll call him JW from now on. It conjurs up a guy with a pipe and a smoking jacket. I bet his buddies called him JW in high school.)
Keeping Nomar and Pierre's damage to a minimum will help.
Ha ha. You kill me.
9 It caught my eye.
Nothing gets by dodgers.com
How happy do you think Scott Proctor is about this new hire? Happy to see a familiar face, or unhappy that he's in for another 100-inning season?
Anyway, that always "ground my gears" about Grady, too. Many a time would I sit at home and ask myself why Wolf/Lowe/Penny, etc. was batting when his pitch count had broken three digits.
Thanks for the article.
Be prepared for 12 pitchers in the roster. The astonishing thing would be, out of those 12, Torre would only use 4 of them, and two of them would just be benchwarmers. Scott Proctor has probably got up in the bullpen as part of a Pavlovian reflex action.
And you will find out that if your promising rookie pitcher walks a couple of people in a game, he is forever banished, no matter his minor league records before and after the said debacle.
Also, if some of your young hitters strike out a ton, then they are in trouble. Within the first five games, it is advisable to keep strikeouts to less than 2 in any given game. The only one that got away with striking out a lot was Alfonso Soriano, because he had a lot of speed.
But that shouldn't dampen enthusiasm about this change. Grady was an asbolutely terrible in-game manager. And Torre's input on baseball ops decisions is likely to be a positive development if it means less decisionmaking power for Ned.
I'm still not convinced that this team will make the playoffs, but Torre sure as heck won't hurt. He's taken the Yanks to the playoffs 12 years in a row - that's impressive no matter how you slice it.
Little used Proctor even more than Torre did.
We used Broxton a lot already, so overusing middle relief is something we are used to.
I am already getting scared for the youth. We basically have to give Torre no alternative.
Note to Yankees fans (again): Your bullpen, pre-Joba, was terrible. Garbage. Hence, the reliance on one pitcher. We do not have this problem like you have on your team. I don't know who told you we have this. We do not.
The A's seem to have some old-fashioned notions about what makes a good catcher. Judging from their actions since Billy Beane took over, they seem to believe that pitch-calling and pitch-blocking are more important skills than hitting for a catcher, even though there are no published statistical reports that I've ever heard that indicate that either of those skills make much difference.
On a more serious note... it's good to know he'll give the young players a lot of rope, if they can get the jobs (and the prayer to the Baseball Gods in re no more PVL begins). I'm a little concerned about his potential handling of the pitching staff. And as much as I like the speed game, I'm suddenly worried that Pierre is going to be either leading off or batting second all year.
It might be impressive for a team to make the playoffs 12 years in a row, but I attribute that to the players, not the manager. It's not like he guided a bunch of scrubs to the promised land.
& lets not forget Broxton had some ARM ISSUES because of it, that's the only thing I'm worried aboot.
I'm not going to try to support or attack Little as an in-game manager, but I'm confident there will be complaints about Torre as well. I'm not saying that to be Scrooge. It just seems like the way of the world.
Proven
Italian
Leadership
I'll be honest, this is one of those things that I don't think you need "published statistical reports" to understand. But I'm a contrarian like that.
In Little's defense I remember a few of those times. I agree it is annoying when that happens, but sometimes a pitcher is pulled because he gave up 2-3 hits/walks in a row and there was no way to know that was going to happen. It's not like he let the pitcher bat, then the pitcher retired the first two batters and he was pulled. Clint Hurdle is the guy who is famous for this. He would let the pitcher hit, then not even let him start the next inning.
I don't think there is much difference between the average MLB manager minus the likes of Jim Tracy and Dusty Baker. They each have some minor flaws and each have some strengths, evening things out in the long run. Where I see the difference may be in leadership and public relations type skills. It could be true that Torre is a better manager than Little, I really have no way of quantifying it one way or the other. Where I think one can make a difference is in the GM position. That's where the most damage/improvement to a team is usually done at.
vr, Xei
It's true. No matter who anybody has as manager, there will always be nitpicking, complaints, etc.
Probably will just have Ned on the line, expect Simers to badger him on when he started talking to Torre and was it before Grady retired?
Welcome Joe, and good luck!
I will spare you Scott Proctor jokes. But as a Dodger fan, you are aware of Paul Quantrill, I suppose. He didn't suffer a very good fate in 2005, I must say, and the primary reason was Joe Torre.
I'm tunned in...
My hope is that Torre gets some of these kids to really play a more consistent all around game. If that happens, they have a pretty goo team.
we have a couple of good ones (a couple of good rooks too):
Meloan
McDonald (out side shot)
Brazoban
________________________
established relievers:
Beimel/Proctor
Broxton
Saito
_________________________
I hope he uses all of them accordingly, some of the Rookies have great track records in the minors.
I don't agree with that characterization. Plenty of people here have offered the upside on Torre. If some don't think he's the second coming, I think that's fair considering the overwhelming praise he's getting elsewhere.
In any case, I wish him good luck too.
An Italian workman wants a job, but the foreman won't hire him until he passes a little math test "Here's your first question," the foreman said.
"Without using numbers, represent the number 9."
"Without numbers?" the Italian says, "Datsa easy." and he proceeds to draw three trees.
"What's this?" the boss asks.
"Ave you got no brain? Tree and tree and tree make a nine," says the Italian.
"Fair enough," says the boss. "Here's your second question. Use the same rules, but this time the number is 99."
The Italian stares into space for a while, then picks up the picture that he has just drawn and makes a smudge on each tree . "Ere you go."
The boss scratches his head and says, "How on earth do you get that to represent 99?"
"Each of da trees is a dirty now. So, it's dirty tree, and dirty tree, and dirty tree. Datsa a 99."
The boss is getting worried so he says, "All right, last question. Same rules again, but represent the number 100."
The Italian stares into space some more, then he picks up the picture again and makes a little mark at the base of each tree and says, "Ere you go. One hundred."
The boss looks at the attempt. "You must be nuts if you think that represents a hundred!"
(You're going to love this one!)
The Italian leans forward and points to the marks at the base of each tree and says, "A little doga come along and poopa by eacha tree. So now you gota dirty tree and a turd, dirty tree and a turd, and dirty tree and a turd, data makea one hundred. So, whenna I start?"
A few other things to add:
* He's done an outstanding job managing Jorge Posada's heavy workload, keeping him effective all year long -- there's virtually no difference between Posada's first- and second-half splits careerwise, and his September numbers have historically been strong. Granted, he won't have the DH to help Russell Martin out in the same way, but Torre was a catcher, and he understood the workload.
* Right now the Dodgers already have a deeper bullpen than the Yankees have had the last few years. In Broxton, Proctor, and Beimel, the Dodgers have three capable setup men, and that's not to say they won't be even deeper. Torre hasn't had more than one good righty setup at any one time in awhile, and his recent lefty relievers have primarily been LOOGYs or mop-and-bucket guys. Beimel is more of a Mike Stanton type, capable of pitching full innings without worrying unduly about platoon matchups.
* Anyone pointing to Torre's lack of success in his pre-NYY days would do well to remind themselves that this Dodger club has far more to work with than some of those teams did, particularly in the rotation.
* Whatever the expectations are in LA with the ink still drying on Torre's contract, they're lower and more reasonable than they were in New York. Torre will do a good job of keeping the pressure off his guys by deflecting it towards himself, and this is a guy who can stand more heat than just about any manager I've ever seen. He'll demand accountability for the kind of BS that's gone on around problem children like Jeff Kent over the past few years, and I think he'll find his way through this mix of veterans and youngsters better than Little did last year.
He said as much at the end of last season, that the Dodgers needed players to win now. It worries me that Lowe think the team can be made significantly better by signing such free agents as are available.
>> Torre is personable yet shrewd. He is a mayor more than a manager, working to unite his people for one common quest. He is also smart and selfless enough to do something Little rarely did: put baseball people in place to help him run games. <<
## Torre began having more success when he had players who ran games for him on the field. It began with his first Yankee catcher, Joe Girardi, and then became the exclusive domain of Jorge Posada and Derek Jeter.
Now that responsibility falls directly on Russell Martin. ##
http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/articles/10937036.html
But Little ultimately didn't do THAT good a job. Yes, success on the field would have reduced carping off of the field, but Little's incredibly laid-back approach let it go on too long, and that's the manager's job. To use Casey Stengel's line, each team has five guys who love the manager, five guys who think he's all right, five who don't care either way, five who hate him and five who are trying to make up their minds. The manager's job, he said, is to try to keep the five who hate him away from the five who are trying to decide. That doesn't quite cover what happened last season, but in terms of handling his men, Little failed.
Nor was Little consistent as a strategist or in making out his lineup. If Torre does stick with kids, it will be a major difference. Little seemed to have the attitude, "Oh, it's Tuesday, time for Kemp to replace Gonzales," not, "Kemp (or Gonzales) is really hitting, keep the hot hand and sit someone who isn't hitting." That's my impression, anyway.
None of this is to say that Torre is all that much better. But he will be in a position of strength that Little lacked. Not to view Lasorda's as halcyon days--the media references to the lack of Dodger playoff victories since he left don't take into account that he didn't go anywhere after 1988 and screwed up royally at times--but while McCourt lacks O'Malleyesque stability, Torre, like Lasorda, can manage with the idea that he won't lose his job tomorrow over something and that distinguishes him from Little.
Three managers accounted for 61 seasons: Wilbert Robinson, Walter Alston, and Tommy Lasorda.
Alston and Lasorda shared the 1976 season.
Travelling from New York?
Is he here in Los Angeles?
I'm guessing they'll be a formal press conference at the Stadium introducing him tomorrow.
lol
Blech.
vr, Xei
Anyhow, can't say that I find hiring a manager based on famousness that compelling, but good luck Mr. Torre.
Second impression, can his talent evaluation be any less good than Colletti's? Or am I just being naive?
Re 69: How much weight in personnel decisions do you suppose they're giving overpaid pitchers in the last year of their contracts who will be even more overpaid in the dog end of their careers in their next contract, with whoever's silly enough to sign them? A how-stupid-are-they question, I know.
vr, Xei
Coaches mean more in basketball than they do in baseball and Phil brought a whole lot more than Kurt Rambis to the table.
If anything, I think this decreases the likelihood of him signing with LA, but not as much as the fact that Colletti's dealings with Boras over Drew and Gagne were so awful that the Dodgers never really got a shot to bring back Maddux, and the fact that McCourt is a cheapskate who can't afford the operating losses that a $30m/year contract will create even as it raises the long-term value of the franchise via media revenues and other ancillary benefits.
Ned: uh, uhh, uhhh, four days ago.
vr, Xei
oh man, LOL!!
Mid-season and Kurt Rambis took over.
So we are going to re-hire Grady?
vr, Xei
The Italian restaurant question was totally tongue-in-cheek. Came as a follow-up from the same guy that backed him into changing his "When did you start talks with Torre" answer.
I can say that because I'm an Italian born in Queens. Not that being Italian has anything to do with it.
I did not realize that the Steinbrenner Yankees beat the pants off the Dodgers by winning 2 of 3 World Series matchups.
All of which lasted six games.
And there hasn't been a Dodgers-Yankees World Series since I was 15 years old.
I know people talk about pro athletes playing for themselves, but when I look at the good teams of late, they've been playing for each other not themselves. at least for that season, and at least it appears that way.
.232/.264/.408
42K, 6BB (142 AB)
If only we had a chance to see what kind of reception he'd have gotten in LA with that line.
I leave for a meeting and I miss an entire press conference. Work is really starting to interfere with my life...
Does anyone know where I can find the audio from the conference call?
Not there yet, but hopefully they will podcast it.
Thanks.
Sorry
I will keep my fingers off of the shift+# keys from now on...
Of course I'm talking about the President of Chrysler, who today announced plans to lay off thousands of jobs and cut four models.
But how will they ever land any more photo shoots if they're all scarred up?
And do they really want to upset William Munny...?
LOL! I was afraid Tommy had been reading too much DodgerThoughts.
This is not a move I would have made if I owned the Dodgers, but then again I would not have hired Grady in the first place. As much as I disliked the Fox Dodgers, keeping Bob Daily and Dan Evans in place would have been far better than the turmoil of the past few years.
Stan from Tacoma
So we should expect Joe Torre to do a commercial along the line of Lasorda's.
"I don't get cancer in my prostate. I give prostate cancer to others!"
"Reflecting upon this, I see a great deal of similarity between Torre and Little. Not complete similarity, but I'm not sure there's enough difference to be significant
And certainly not enough to warrant a salary six times a high."
I have to disagree. If Torre can net the players we need to send us over the top, then of course he's worth the extra money. I think it's a safe bet to say players (particularly the free agents on the market that we should targer) want to play under Joe Torre. And a guy like Torre demads respect- which to me says the clubhouse explosion could not happen under Joe Torre. And if he truly brings Mattingly and Bowa over, he's worth every penny! Loney being coached by Donny Baseball? Give me a break! I welcome this move whole heartedly!
The Dodgers should be comended for bringing a superstar manager to LA. Now they need that marquee free agent ie Arod and then this team gets more national attention like they did in the 70s when I was just learning to be a jealous but admiring Padres fan.
Sometimes these kind of additions cant be explained on paper, but you know your team is now better.
Torre's arrival signifies the end of McCourt's awkward transitional period. This is finally the hire General Manager Ned Colletti never had the opportunity to make when he first took the job. Little was a glorified interim manager, a stopgap with a stopwatch that was running the second he was hired.
Yay! No more awkwardness from McCourt! It's also good to know that Frank stopped telling Ned not to hire the manager he wanted.
Little was a bad actor who didn't realize that choppy monologues only work in this town if you're a dumb blonde, not if you're old and gray. He was the classic minor league manager over his head in the big leagues.... If you can't hold the media, there's no way you can hold a ballclub. The down-home demeanor was perfect for the Greenville Braves, not for the Los Angeles Dodgers.
So Little's interviews are what did him in.
The Dodgers think of themselves as crisp and efficient. The Dodgers, from the top down, think of themselves as East Coast elegance personified.
Eastern-most in Quality...
In his place comes Torre, who will find Los Angeles to be a highly superficial baseball town compared to New York. The atmosphere around Dodgers games can sometimes resemble B-movie sets, where ego and self-importance are everything.
Wait a minute. What happened to that East Coast elegance just last paragraph?
Managing in the National League is a different creature. It would be wise for Torre to continue his trend of employing sharp lieutenants, and he should hire one with recent NL experience. If he doesn't want to, the Dodgers need to hire one for him.
In other words, Torre's an idiot.
Players love a winner, because it makes them feel like one. They are almost universally followers. Torre has rings, which is important for a franchise that has forgotten how to finish what it started.
Besides the mangled sentences, he makes it sound like this is Lord of the Rings.
Torre is also a good fit for Colletti, who also likes older players. Now the Dodgers have to make the call and pick which 20-something players they really believe can play, and discard the rest. The answer is not in free agency. Alex Rodriguez would look nice, but don't bank on it. The Dodgers can sell out just as easily with Andy LaRoche playing third base.
Too many also's, plus if they like older players, why would they pick out the young ones they like. And what does sell out mean?
Casey Stengel has been dead for 32 years and even his accomplishments as Yankees manager are occasionally questioned because of the talent his teams had. You can argue that Torre only won with talent, but at some point, the manager's influence is felt.
Umm, what point exactly is that?
The reason is because no single player ever wants to be held accountable for something. The manager always wears it. For the Dodgers' immediate future, the Rolex is a better fit than the windbreaker.
What does this even mean?
I think Torre is a great match for the Dodgers just as long as fans realize that they can't necessarily expect a championship next year. Give the guy a little time and have some faith. Colleti is the big prolem and Little was much weaker than Colleti. Torre is a stronger manager than Colleti is a general manager so I think we might actually see some legitimate baseball next season.
Worst analogy EVER!
He's one of the writers where sentence after sentence you find yourself pausing just to marvel at the depth and precision of language and detail.
Marvelous stuff. Like the lady in the progressive auto insurance commercial, I feel compelled to pass on this wonderful find, so I urge others who enjoy that sort of thing to give Furst a try.
I fear that the Dodgers are getting Torre after his best years. I don't think he'll have enough fuel in his tank and won't have half the available talent that he had with the Yankees.
However one big plus for Torre is that he is out of the New York pressure cooker where he was expected to deliver a world series team every season.
The perception on the east coast of the west coast, particularly in Boston and NYC, is that people don't take baseball as seriously as they do (you know start for the exits in the seventh inning, etc.). I can say that Red Sox fans take the sport as if it IS life or death, and Yankee fans are right behind them in this regard. You could of asked Grady about this fact... So perhaps Torre can gain a little breathing room.
Now my question as a "Nomah" fan is this: What are the implications for Nomar vz. Torre? Yes he is a veteran's manager, but as has been stated he is not afraid to bench a veteran if they are limping along for one reason or another.
>> On the plus side of the Dodgers equation, Torre will be working with a shrewd and diligent general manager, Ned Colletti. <<
http://tinyurl.com/3xzdkj
WOW! The World Series is ours.
He won four World Series with the Yankees. If none of those came after 2000, the fact that the Yankees each October found themselves facing somebody with much better pitching, indicated that the dry spell was hardly the manager's fault.
So, the four World Series where the Yankees found themselves facing somebody without much better pitching were hardly to the manager's credit...?
How often do players base their team decisions upon the manager rather than upon the financial offer...?
Emphasis on modicum.
If you are going to impugn someone's reputation at least have the decency to do it accurately.
in 16 years managing in the minor leagues, compiled a record of 1,054-903 (.539)...on May 15, 1995, earned his 1,000th managerial win when Triple-A Richmond defeated Scranton Wilkes-Barre, 4-0...managed eight teams to the postseason during his minor league tenure, compiling a 22-15 (.595) record in postseason play...won league postseason titles with Hagerstown (1981), Pulaski (1986), Greenville (1992) and Richmond (1994)...had 12 teams post winning records during his minor league managing days the 1992 Double-A Greenville Braves compiled a gaudy record of 100-43 (.699) under his tutelage and ran away with the Southern League title...the 1992 team set four league and 24 club records...was named Manager of the Year by Baseball America and The Sporting News in 1992...received his respective leagues Manager of the Year award four times, taking the honor with Hagerstown (1981), Durham (1989), Greenville (1992) and Richmond (1994)..
Also, don't forget that he came within an RJ Reynolds bunt of winning back to back divisions with a Braves team that had a few stars (Murphy,Horner, Niekro), and a lot of guys even diehard Braves fans couldn't name (Rafael Ramirez? Bruce Benedict?)
One could make the argument that Barry Bonds signed with the Giants because he wanted to play for Dusty Baker. Baker's ascension as manager and Bonds signing with the Giants happened at about the same time.
Diehard Braves fans could name Rafael Ramirez. In fact, I think they nick-named him: "Raffy"
Once upon a time, a Los Angeles franchise that often came close, but never could hurdle its last barriers, despite the presence of homegrown and imported talent, decide that it needed a new head man and brought in a man who was most closely associated with its biggest rival. That man, in his first season in L.A., led the team to a long-awaited championship, getting a key veteran to buy into his approach for the best team results. That was ex-Celtic Bill Sharman (also ex-Dodger farmhand), who was either coach, general manager or president for the Lakers from 1971 until 1990.
Of course, Bill was a heck of a lot younger than Joe Torre is now.
I was going to make a crack that the Dodgers should have hired John Wooden, but I'll just leave it at this: How can you actually believe that?
I for one am fascinated by the prospect of dropping by here in June or July and seeing if the old dog has learned a new trick or two.
I hope it's clear that I've got no axe to grind with Torre. Personally, I like him and respect him quite a bit. It's just the notion that he's going to make the Dodgers champions simply with his aura that troubles me.
Oh, right...
The more important question is who will Torre let join the Finer Things Club?
http://tinyurl.com/yr33jk
Dodgers ace Penny to watch horse run at Santa Anita
1. Frank wanted and got Torre. Ned wanted Girardi and pushed hard. Frank wanted Torre and did nearly all the negotitations himself w/o Ned;
2. "Ned is on a very short leash" and is close to winding up like Depo is the Dodgers don't do well out of the gate this season.
Ned is the best decision Frank has ever made. In his life.
I'm a little mystified by the generally negative reaction toward the Torre hiring, both from those out there in Dodgerland and the media (take a look at JA Adande's piece on ESPN.com if you need an example). I have a feeling it has more to do with the bad vibes about McCourt and the handling of the Grady departure than it does anything else.
His minor league stats were really good, so that would make sense
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/K/Brad-Komminsk.shtml
To me, He's got that calm Al Pacino/godfather Demeanure about 'em, you know like in that part were they start kissing him in the hand & all, like that.
A related question that I know has been asked here before, but I can't recall any answer. Does anyone have any ideas about what kind of GM Ng would make?
"I'm excited. I think it's going to be great for the organization. He knows how to win. He knows what it takes. He's a very directed and gifted leader.
"Grady is a great man. He's definitely a players' manager in the fact that he cared about what the players wanted. I think Joe's really good at letting the players be who they are, but yet you have to be who you are within the parameters of the team. I think that's what he's going to be better at than Grady."
Lifted from the Press-Telegram web site:
http://tinyurl.com/35lsoo
This is a splashy hire. And that's fine. I like Joe Torre very much. But it's a manager.
Definitely the kind that doesn't leave the toilet seat up.
It's in the article I linked above, it was in the Times today, it's on MLB.com, it's everywhere.
I do agree with this: "I have a feeling it has more to do with the bad vibes about McCourt and the handling of the Grady departure than it does anything else." Again, I have gone out of my way to say I have nothing against Torre. I just don't see him as a savior, which is how most columnists are painting him.
I agree with 197.
I kind of really don't like Frank McCourt, reading that.
LaRoche AAA career vs. Komminsk 1983 AAA
Name... PA. 2B 3B HR BB Ks BA. OBP SLG OPS
ALaRoche 541 32 2 28 64 74 .315 .399 .572 .971
Komminsk 501 24 6 24 78 70 .334 .433 .596 1.029
Does this report mean that this time Tommy wasn't doing his standard push for his guy Bobby Valentine?
Somewhere in a Fox Studio, is Kevin Kennedy complaining of a pro Italian hiring bias?
Or is he just out for himself? Don't answer that...
In any case, thanks Jon for providing an intelligent forum for discussion of all of this, for someone isolated out here in Yankee country.
Again, I'll be a bit contrarian and argue that a good manager (and good coaches) are able to get more out their players. Yes, some players are simply so good that it doesn't matter who their coach is, but those athletes are rare. Perhaps Torre can put the young Dodgers over the top.
http://blogs.dailynews.com/dodgers/
"I think there is value to (continuity), and that is the goal," Colletti said. "Joe is 67 years old, and we don't expect Joe to manage a very, very long time. If we can groom somebody under Joe's direction, we look forward to doing that, much like Tommy (Lasorda) was groomed under the direction of Walter (Alston). In my conversations with (Dodgers owners) Frank and Jamie McCourt about where we are going, the ideas we want to put in place and the things we want to build on, that was certainly one of the key components."
222 92 days ago.
And is Brandon Boggs on his team any relation to Wade?
http://tinyurl.com/33kq8d
http://tinyurl.com/29pgps
It can't be can it?
"That's my emotions now. That's how I feel now. When I decide to retire five years from now, we'll see where they are at that moment," he added.
Looks like Barry will be a Dodger cause Ned is the only guy dumb enough to give him a 5 year deal.
BTW, I would love to see the Dodgers give Barry a one year deal.
Boggs, no.
Rose, son of the famed gambler.
Did you guys hear about Joe Torre becoming Dodger man...
Ah, I need to get some sleep.
Welcome back after a long hiatus.
*Note: that something must have nothing to do with Paul or the early church, or the fact that finishing grading means I can get back to work on my thesis.
"Little was a bad actor who didn't realize that choppy monologues only work in this town if you're a dumb blonde, not if you're old and gray. He was the classic minor league manager over his head in the big leagues.... If you can't hold the media, there's no way you can hold a ballclub. The down-home demeanor was perfect for the Greenville Braves, not for the Los Angeles Dodgers…"
-----
And if this is supposedly the case, how did a similar character like Walter Alston succeed in Los Angeles for almost 20 Years ?
-------
Too bad that journalists don't have
licences, that could be suspended when they abuse their position…
In my case,"a long hiatus" began by having to ask my wife "What do you mean we have to shop for another crib set?"
>> "You have to assume that if they bring in Torre, they'll bring in the players to allow him to use his skills and win a World Series, to go out and get the best available. Everyone says that's Alex Rodriguez. Who knows? But, you hope this is the first step toward getting guys in here that have won before. There are all kinds of people we could get." <<
## Nonetheless, the hot-stove possibilities have Lowe energized for 2008, a complete shift from the way he felt when the 2007 season unraveled.
"It was hard to go to the ballpark, and you never want to say that," he said. "What happened took all the fun out of it. We were not on the same page to win. Our communication was very poor, everybody -- me included -- and no one put a stop to it. You don't have to be best friends, but you have to find a way to root for the guy next to you to have the same goal." ##
%% "There was a lot of animosity, 'anger' really isn't the right word. When young players move in, veterans will get irritated, that's just part of the game. But how some of the conversations were handled, that started the downward spiral. It got to the point, I don't know if it was ugly, but you know when Grady was saying we have to all pull in the same direction? Well, we had people pulling in every direction. That's why we struggled down the stretch. That's why I said that something had to change before Spring Training." <<
http://tinyurl.com/2do7ut
If it is in fact Joe McDonnell (or MacDonald), it couldn't have been on 710. McDonnell, all 570 lbs of him moved over to AM 570 KLAC. He's been there now for a few months.
He's also a big Angels homer, so don't pay him any mind.
I'm sure we could've gotten an interview with Kirk Gibson. Orel Hershiser was available. So is "T-Bone" Shelby. We could have tried to get Bobby V. Davey Lopes has big-league experience. Jerry Reuss and Eric Karros are handy.
Do any of them seem like a better answer than Torre? The only better choice with a Dodger pedigree, Mike Scioscia, would think it was a practical joker pretending to be Colletti if he called.
"The actions of McCourt just reaffirm a little secret about Los Angeles: all of the behavior that gives this city a bad name comes from people who move here, not the folks who are from here. As soon as the plane lands the new residents throw on the sunglasses, find a hairstylist and start trying to fit in. McCourt, a Bostonian, just bought the flashiest car on the lot and is ready to show off. He might even accessorize with A-Rod."
No commentary, really. I just thought it was interesting.
JA Adande thinks Los Angeles is like Isla Vista on Halloween night.
245. True or not, its a good line. You can just see Frank and his Persols.
Probably because that's what he is.
This part of the article was amusing:
Teammate Joe Beimel, whose career blossomed playing for Little, said he's eager to play for Torre.
"The track record speaks for itself," he said. "I hope he gets us back to the playoffs. This speaks volumes about what the team is willing to do to win. I talked to [former Yankee] Scott Proctor today. He said to be ready to pitch a lot. He [Torre] likes to use the bullpen. That's fine with me."
At some point, I'm sorry, but this really stops being the manager's fault. Do they really need to be reminded to be grown men?
You don't want to Schrute your first chance to kiss up.
He's one of those, huh.
Howland is my homeboy!
Lowe's sort of an "oops I did it again" kind of guy. Talented, but a wayward personality. He sounds like he's saying he got caught up in other players' dramas and now regrets it (but wishes Little had intervened, since he's unable to control himself.) His own position on the Dodgers was perfectly secure, but maybe he took sides anyway. D'oh!
http://tinyurl.com/29tys4
You can even type the name with periods in it.
The Orioles!
I have read reports today that Joe is actually good with young players and hope he can find someone-Martin perhaps to be his captain and be the liason to the players. This seems to be something that Little didn't have.
Jon, nice work taking Vandelay Industries apart for his inaccurate and unfair posts on Banter.
What if Colletti concocts a couple of expensive trades but McCourt, as he reportedly did last summer, kills the deals because he doesn't want to give up the cheaper kids?
Interesting to see McCourt in the Keep the Kids Camp. Of course, it's Plaschke, so take it with all the salt in Utah.
It's best just to assume that they are making things up on the fly. The idea that there is some sort of "Grand Plan" is folly.
I know I can't stand paying for players on other teams, but honestly, does anyone think we might be able to unload Pierre on another team?
The guy on the hot seat is Colletti. I don't know what, if any, young and upcoming talent he has brought into a Dodger uniform. Not guys like Loney and Kemp, but newbies placed in the system.
Isn't the key having 2 big boppers in the line-up ala Ortiz and Ramirez?
Colletti is a protege of Brian Sabean, who destroyed the long-term health of the SF Giants by constantly bringing in established players. I just don't see Ned as a vision guy.
At some point, I'm sorry, but this really stops being the manager's fault. Do they really need to be reminded to be grown men?
And do you even have to be grown men to have the same goal in baseball? Don't little leaguers want to play well and win? How many goals can there really be in baseball, and how likely are they to be conflicting? Was there any evidence that players weren't trying to play well? If not, what is Lowe even talking about? Is he saying the kids didn't support the veterans' goal of keeping the garbage can in front of Kemp's locker?
Also, when I read of "grooming," I get a mental picture of Torre licking his thumb in the dugout, then using it to wipe some mustard out of the corners of Don Mattingly's mustache.
But the column is full of creamy goodness!
20 years is overdue for the Dodgers to be in the world series. The Dodgers apparently agree. You don't hire a 67-year-old manager with a 3-year contract to win 5 years from now. The Dodgers' current philosophy seems to be about win now, and I'm all for it.
And lastly, win now does not preclude win later. But you certainly have more control over the "now" than the "later."
Go Dodgers. Go all in.
I think the mistake you are making is that you see the Dodgers in a "win now" season. However, the way their roster is constructed currently is for a win soon and for awhile after that. While winning now doesn't necessarily preclude winning later, the philosophy applied to our situation would mean trading a strong foundation for a team perhaps being competitive for a short time frame.
I'm not interested in that scenario. I'd much rather build on a strong foundation (i.e. the "kids") than see a bunch of one year rentals on the field who may not get the job done anyway.
Furthermore, I don't see why the Dodgers can't win now. They have the foundation, they just need the commitment to that foundation.
This passage is typical: "Who knows what he will do with Matt Kemp? If he and his veteran coaching staff can reach this marvelously talented but tough-to-coach kid, maybe he can stay. But if Kemp is the one piece who can bring in the big hitter, he's gone."
Kemp IS the big hitter, you dolt! Thanks to Plaschke, the CW about Kemp has hardened: He's a temperamental head case problem child, the 2nd coming of Albert Belle. What an awful writer.
Colletti will undoubtedly make unnecessary moves this offseason, just so he can justify his existence as a GM who makes moves. This is especially true now that rumors are swirling that he's on the hot seat. Yet another drawback of the instability that McCourt has created in the organization since he took over. The guy really is 1980s-era Steinbrenner, without the money.
New post up top.
All of this "wait 'till next year" talk should be over. If the Dodgers can't perform with this team in 2008, they have no excuses, but on the bright side they also have Clayton Kershaw to help come 2009.
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