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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Wigging on Miggy
2007-11-15 09:20
by Jon Weisman

Assuming the Yankees' rapprochement with Alex Rodriguez eliminates his Dodger future, the Dodgers are at a crossroads.

They can pursue a trade for Florida All-Star third baseman Miguel Cabrera, probably costing them at least a starting pitcher and two starting position players. The Dodgers could then sign free agents to make up the difference.

Potentially, you would be replacing Andy LaRoche, Matt Kemp and Clayton Kershaw with Cabrera, Torii Hunter and Kyle Lohse. The latter group would cost tens of millions more than the former, but let's say hypothetically that money is no object.

Kemp (.295 EQA at age 22-23 last season) is better than Hunter (.277 EQA at age 31-32 last season, career high of .282), even factoring in Hunter's defense. Kershaw should be better than Lohse (ERA+ of 100 at age 28 last season, career-high of 106) within a year. Does the difference between Cabrera and LaRoche make up for that?

Baseball America executive editor Jim Callis, for one, felt LaRoche was a better option than Rodriguez.

"I think the Dodgers would be much better off just going with LaRoche rather than playing an older guy or shelling out $30 million-plus a year for Alex Rodriguez," Callis told me in an e-mail. "He got off to slow start last year while overcoming soreness in his non-throwing shoulder, but he raked after that. He's not just a one-dimensional masher, as he can hit for power and average and play a solid third base. He should be healthy as he gets further away from his 2006 shoulder surgery. I really like him."

Cabrera won't earn $30 million a year with the Dodgers, and I am certainly intrigued by him. With EQAs of .319 or better each of the past three years, the Dodgers haven't seen a hitter like him in their lineup since Shawn Green (at his peak) and Gary Sheffield. And LaRoche's shoulder concerns me less than his back, which gave him trouble late last season.

If you make the trade and sign the free agents, you improve the team for 2008. And after 20 years with one playoff victory, maybe that's all that matters. You don't worry about the fact that the package you give up could be better in 2009 than what you have now. If Hunter goes into firm decline and Kershaw goes into Pedro Martinez mode, you just deal with it. If Cabrera leaves as a free agent in two years, you just deal with it.

You'd still have Russell Martin, James Loney, Jonathan Broxton, Chad Billinglsey, Andre Ethier, Chin-Lung Hu, James McDonald ...

So why am I still torn?

A Juan Pierre-Hunter-Ethier outfield leaves me cold.

Matt Kemp is as exciting a ballplayer I've seen in a Dodger uniform in a decade.

And I think I'd rather see Kershaw stumble as a Dodger than see him become the next Pedro as a Marlin.

So honestly, I don't know what to do. But here's what I think might happen. Florida will ask for a fourth player – not Pierre - in addition to Kemp, LaRoche and Kershaw. Or, the Marlins will ask for Chad Billingsley, whose major league career path puts him ahead of Hall of Famer Don Sutton. And at that point, I would have no trouble balking at the deal.

Comments (997)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-11-15 10:33:30
1.   regfairfield
Might as well repost this since it's directly on topic.

The Dodgers have enough resources that it's entirely possible to fill the holes made in a large trade for Cabrera. For example: Kemp, Kershaw, LaRoche for Cabrera. Cabrera fills LaRoche's spot, Hunter, Rowand or Jones replaces Kemp and then you sign Sabathia, Santana or Sheets the following offseason to replace Kershaw.

It's not nearly as cost effective, and the centerfielder trifecta probably isn't quite as good as Kemp, but you aren't stranded with Delwyn or Stulton getting any useful amount of time.


Because of this, I disagree with the idea that Lohse will have to replace Kershaw. I can't see him breaking into the rotation anytime before mid August, and even then we'd have to have some severe injuries for that to happen. You need to look ahead to 2009 to determine his replacement, which for now looks a lot more promising.

The only way that I would call any trade for Miguel Cabrera a bad idea is if we included both Kemp and Billingsley. Everything else, at worst falls into "time will tell".

2007-11-15 10:34:58
2.   Disabled List
I might be tempted to give up Kemp OR Billingsley in a deal for Cabrera, but not both. No way. Those guys aren't prospects, those are two of the best players in our lineup and rotation. Cabrera's great, but that deal weakens the team. It's subtraction by addition.

Kershaw is a little tougher to draw a line in the sand around. TINSTAAPP, and all that.

2007-11-15 10:36:36
3.   Jon Weisman
1 - I didn't say Lohse would have to replace Kershaw. But I expect that, even knowing that Kershaw isn't scheduled to arrive until late summer, Colletti's craving for starting pitching depth won't allow him to avoid signing a free agent pitcher this offseason, whether it's Lohse or someone else.
2007-11-15 10:37:08
4.   CajunDodger
Buster Olney says that the Dodgers are making a "heavy play" for Aaron Rowand...

Not sure what to make of that.

2007-11-15 10:37:26
5.   Jon Weisman
2 - It's my personal feeling that Ned would consider Billingsley an untouchable at this point in any package deal.
2007-11-15 10:38:39
6.   Daniel Zappala
And what if Sabathia, Santana, and Sheets are off the market by then or signed by other teams?
2007-11-15 10:38:59
7.   Jon Weisman
1, 3 - In other words, Kershaw figures into the depth equation now, even if he isn't scheduled to come up now.
2007-11-15 10:41:16
8.   CajunDodger
I guess that would make Russ and Bills the only two that we could probably pencil into the lineup next year. I still think that we should see what we could get for Furcal, though I really can't see Colletti assuming that Hu could walk in and do the job.
2007-11-15 10:42:50
9.   Disabled List
5 I doubt very much this would happen, but if the Marlins would take Billingsley, LaRoche, and prospect not named Kershaw, then I think Colletti would go for it.

I hope you're right though. Billingsley ought to be next to Martin at the top of the Untouchables list.

2007-11-15 10:42:54
10.   derek22
You all must have forgot what the standings were around mid-season last one point the Red Sox were the only MLB team with a better record than us...give LaRoche a chance. if Schmidt gets healthy and close to his old self, with Penny, Lowe, Bills, and hopefully the significant pitcher Colletti is talking about bringing in we will be in good shape..i figure Torre is good for a couple of extra wins too...and some relief pitchers wouldnt hurt.
2007-11-15 10:44:03
11.   Frip
From FJM, Ken Tremendous, April 2007

Derek Jeter's Career Splits:

Derek Jeter's Career Postseason splits:

"Mr. Clutch is actually Mr. Exactly the Same No Matter What Month You Are Talking About. He is Mr. Equally Excellent Hitting SS Every Month from April to November. He is Mr. Outrageously Similar Statistics Every 30 Days."

I know the guys at FJM don't beleive in Clutch, and I'm not sure I do either, at least in baseball. But to say that Jeter's slugging performance is the same in regular vs. postseason is just wrong.

He's slugged 16 points higher in the post season. Not a tremendous difference, but significant.

At least significant enought for Ken not to try and prove a point with the slugging numbers he compared.

2007-11-15 10:44:35
12.   bigcpa
If you are a Marlins fan, would you rather have Andy LaRoche for the next 6 years or Miguel Cabrera for the next 2? Dealing him for a major league ready touted 3B prospect makes so much sense from their side. Florida might be overplaying their hand a la Jim Bowden with Soriano. 2 years of Miggy is not worth 18 years of service time for LaRoche/Kemp/pitcher.
2007-11-15 10:45:17
13.   LogikReader
Rowand has just been moved from my "Want to happen" list to my "Don't want to happen" list.

4 is more hot steam from the hot stove, but you can bet that if Rowand somehow ends up here he'll do no better than he did this year. Talk about hot and cold! There's potential for a big regression here.

It's amazing that so many problems were created by just one player who now does not exist at DT.

2007-11-15 10:48:31
14.   KG16
ok, can someone explain the line of thinking behind "there is no such thing as a pitching prospect"? I don't get the rational for a statement like that. A player is either: a prospect; a major leaguer; or a career minor leaguer. Or am I missing something?
2007-11-15 10:48:39
15.   Sam DC
This was LAT'd but fits here better (reposted with numerous typos fixed!):

Maybe this is too emotional a way of looking at the whole thing, but at this point, having watched the Dodgers' prospects come to the league, I really want the chance to watch them develop together. I just want it. I want to see if Matt Kemp is a star to be or if he is just another trash-can mover. I want to see if James Loney can chase .400 some year.

Looking at how baseball works these days, and the economics of building around young players, and watching the Nationals be unable to trade Soriano or a scorching-hot Dmitri Young or Chad Cordero for top-tier prospects because other teams value those young players so highly, I also think it is smart to maximize what you are getting from your own farm and then to backfill with FA signings.

But it really has become emotional for me. The Dodgers are blessed to have such a big core of young players coming to the league at the same time. They have the top pitching prospect in all of baseball! Wow. What fun.

Let's play two!

2007-11-15 10:49:26
16.   uke
4 - Oh lord, take me now...
2007-11-15 10:49:43
17.   regfairfield
6 Then we go after Lowe or Perez.

7 Of course, but I don't think we really notice that he's gone until 2010. I think we get into the pitcher bidding war of the 2008 offseason regardless of who we have. I also think that we go to McDonald before we go to Kershaw. Until Penny and Schmidt leave, I don't think he's guaranteed a spot in the rotation (and I have to believe Penny won't be allowed to leave the team, especially if we get cut out of the Sabathia/Santana/Sheets sweepstakes).

By then, we have guys like Elbert and Orenduff who aren't amazing now, but who knows by then. Greg Miller and Edwin Jackson were just as good as Kershaw at this point, and things happened. I really believe that so long as you play your cards correctly, we can afford to lose Kershaw.

2007-11-15 10:50:48
18.   regfairfield
14 Pitchers are far more likely do to things like blow out their elbows and become useless.
2007-11-15 10:51:52
19.   KG16
18 - that's it? A higher risk of injury? Wow, I would have thought there was more to it than that.
2007-11-15 10:55:45
20.   derek22
i'll say it again....we had the second best record in the MLB at one point around mid-season...RELAX EVERYONE!

with a few minor fixes, maybe get rid of pierre somehow, and add Jones, add a relief pitcher and a starter

Torre is good for few wins over Grady.

Loney and Kemp playing a full season.

we will be ok..

why get rid of these guys after we kept them for so long to get to this point?

2007-11-15 10:55:52
21.   regfairfield
19 I think it's also the idea that little things are far more likely to have a huge effect on pitchers. A guy loses a little velocity, suddenly batters don't have to respect his fastball enough so his breaking stuff becomes hittable, etc. I'm not an expert on the subject though.
2007-11-15 10:56:07
22.   Bob Timmermann
I believe it's also more difficult for pitchers to stay at an elite level for as long a time as a hitter.
2007-11-15 10:56:50
23.   Jon Weisman
15 - That's basically been my POV all along. I'm just trying to be open-minded.
2007-11-15 10:57:19
24.   fanerman
I feel like trading away the youth is a bigger betrayal of the Dodger youth than signing a high-priced free agent, even if we're trading for more youth. I've got no problem with adding an A-Rod. But getting rid of Matt Kemp or Billingsley or both kind of turns me off. And of course we've have to sign a couple free agents anyway to fill the void.

I'd still be perfectly content to add LaRoche as starting 3B, replacing Juan Pierre with Young (or even Andruw Jones), make a couple small signings, and largely sticking with the team we have. I wouldn't be against trading for Cabrera necessarily, but I'm content not to.

2007-11-15 10:57:21
25.   derek22
not to mention we got mcdonald and kershaw comin in the next year or two.

i know its a stretch because of injuries and the fact that its always a stretch with young pitchers but...i think we look good for the next 10 years with the guys we got.

2007-11-15 10:59:07
26.   derek22
24 thats exactly what i said in 20. i am glad someone here has a level head.
2007-11-15 10:59:34
27.   fanerman
15 Er, yeah. That, too.
2007-11-15 11:00:36
28.   KG16
21 - it just seems strange to me... would anyone seriously not consider Pedro Martinez a top flight prospect at age 19? Or Barry Zito? Or Santana? Or {insert favorite young pitcher's name here}?

There are a lot of little things that can effect guys at the plate, or in the field - and can happen at any time, like Sax and Knoblach forgetting how to throw the ball from second to first. I've also seen guys who get a hickup in their swing.

Nonetheless, it's an interesting psychological point.

2007-11-15 11:01:12
29.   Xeifrank
I probably would NOT make a Kemp-Kershaw-LaRoche for MCAB trade. I wouldn't give up both Kemp and Kershaw unless the Marlins gave us more in return (Just say no to Dontrelle) or we gave them Ethier plus a mid level prospect instead. The best case scenario mentioned by Jon is predicated on being able to sign all these other FAs like Hunter/Lohse. What happens if they and others like A.Jones sign elsewhere. I don't like the idea of making huge trades and basing it on possible FA signings that may or may not happen. I say "No" unless either Kemp or Kershaw is pulled out of that deal. And of course MCAB would have to agree to a long-term deal, with no opt out clause. His value then goes down if he can't play 3B in a few years...
vr, Xei
2007-11-15 11:02:20
30.   bigcpa
Rowand sports a career 5.7% walk rate and has played in two HR-friendly parks. His away numbers the last two years are around .285/.350/.460 with 16 HR, almost exactly what Ethier is projected at for 2008. Of course Rowand has one thing Ethier does not have. It starts with R and ends with G.
2007-11-15 11:02:29
31.   regfairfield
28 Of course they would. Just like people consider Phil Hughes, Gallardo and Joba top prospects today. It's just that it's more likely something terrible will happen to a pitcher. There's almost no doubt that Alex Gordon will be a good player seven or eight years for now, you can't say the same thing about pitchers.
2007-11-15 11:02:57
32.   ToyCannon
Sorry for the long post but the guy on the other thread who said that those of us who advocated doing nothing had low expecations bugged the crap out of me.

I've stated here and on true blue that I think we'd be better off doing nothing then signing bloated free agents and making the kind of trades that Ned has made the last two years. Other then CF I don't see a week spot on the team. Now if Juan Pierre was going to become a reserve then I don't see a problem with
Loney,Kent,Furcal,Laroche,Martin,Kemp,Pierre,Ethier for 2008. I don't have the same expectations that many here have for them but I think a team that has six players with an OPS of plus 800 will score enough runs to win quite a few games with a pitching staff of Billingsley, Penny, Lowe, Schmidt, Loaiza, McDonald, Elbert, Kuo, and Kershaw.

If they are okay with making Juan a reserve or eating his contract and sending him somewhere else, I also would be open to A Jones or even Tory Hunter playing CF for us. Sure they would be overpaid and they could both kill us at the end of the contracts but no one can deny the upgrade to the team of Jones or Hunter in CF as long as it means Juan Pierre is not playing.

Of course all that was said before the bright penny of Miggy Cabrera came on the market. I'm more then willing to jettison some of the youth for Miggy. His type of hitting skills don't come around very often. As Regarfield said, even if we overpay, the worse that could happen is that Miggy is on the team. I've already stated what I would trade for him and that I would only trade for him if an extension is signed. Otherwise with Arod off the market I feel the team as it currently stands is good enough right now to compete for the NL championship for the next 5 years. After 2009, depending on how Ned allocates extensions for the kids the budget will only be $40,000,000 and with that brings in a ton of flexibility.

What do we currently have:
1st - Loney - he can't be as good as he was in Sept. He can be as good as Mark Grace and that is a very good baseball player.
2nd - Kent - still can hit, I think he will falter in 2008 due to health, but with Abreu and Hu ready to step in, at least the defense will see a huge upgrade. I'd like to see Richie Weeks playing 2nd base for us in the future. If the cost is Broxton I could live with it.
SS - Furcal - in 2006 he was the MVP of the team and a top 10 MVP player in the league. He'll bounce back, he's in a walk year, expect a solid year. Going forward, Hu in 2009 will mimic his skills minus the base running.
3rd - LaRoche - I feel LaRoche if healthy will become the best hitter of the kids and should give us Todd Zeile/Tim Wallach like production with solid defense in his early years and rival Ron Cey in his peak years. He would hit better then Lowell right now in Dodger Stadium.
C - Russel Martin - Perennial all-star catcher, as he battles Brain McCann for the starting job over the next 5 years.
LF - Andre Etheir - One of the best defensive right fielders, should become the best defensive LF in the NL. He's not perfect but a 800-830 OPS will do just fine. Sure we can upgrade here and the minors have no options so it would be either a trade or free agency. Not seeing any LF that I'd buy right now, I could take a chance on Bay if the Pirates wanted to swap left fielders. Bay's upside, if 2007 was due more to his knee surgery and less to a skill decline or PED issue is enough to take the chance.
RF - Matt Kemp-best home grown outfielder since Raul Mondesi and to my eyes Mondesi is the perfect comp. Great speed, great power, strong as an ox, great arm, terrible routes, and terrible plate discipline. If Matt Kemp learns some plate discipline he could be the best hitter since Sheffield, it not Mondesi is not a bad floor.
CF - Big hole, no future prospects. The Dodgers can win with JP playing CF but it makes it that much harder.

Starting Pitching:
Chad Billingsley - huge growth in 2007. He's as valuable as Matt Cain and we will have him for a long time.
Brad Penny - If he ever could put together two halves he'd be able to via for a Cy Young. Probably never going to happen but at least you know in the 1st half you'll have one of the best pitchers in the league and if he can just be league average in the 2nd half, you still have a valuable pitcher. Under contract for 2008 and 2009
D Lowe - still earning his money, but he'll be gone next year.
Schmidt - other then being expensive I cannot hazard a guess as to what he'll do for us.
Loiaza - if healthy he'll be a decent 5th starter though a bit expensive. Gone after 2008 and a contract that can be eaten if he blows.
Kuo - other then being cheap I cannot hazard a guess as to what he'll do for us. As far as skills go I'm still very high on him. As far as health goes I doubt I'll ever see the skills give us 100 innings.
DJ Houlton - not the worse option if we need a 5th starter
McDonald - 2007 was such a surprise he needs to show that he can stay healthy and that he's really this good.
Kershaw - Jim Callis thinks he should be in the rotation by July. If so, why trade for a pitcher when you might have the best one in baseball over the next 5 years waiting in the wings. Can he be our CC Sabathia? At age 20, CC did a solid job.
Elbert - once the top pitching prospect, he's now behind Kershaw and McDonald. On most teams he'd still be the top pitching prospect.

I don't know, seems to me the future is very very bright. Cory Hart should be playing on this team in CF.

Just imagine if Schmidt comes back and Kershaw develops as expected. Jason Schmidt would be the number 5 starter. Can any rotation in the NL come close to rivaling that?

I'd still sign Jon Leiber because I've always been a fan and I have no problem with having to much pitching. If Loaiza has to pitch out of the bullpen so be it.

2007-11-15 11:03:23
33.   CajunDodger
17 , 6
I think it is important to think what this FA class could have been were it not for teams resigning their talent. Imagine how different the landscape would have been if these players had not been given extensions:

Vernon Wells
Aramis Ramirez

I am sure that there are more, but those are the ones that stand out. My point is that players are coming on the market in their prime less and less. I think that this trend will continue over the next couple of years. Every year there will be one or two real difference makers, but I think that we will see fewer above average guys make it to the market.

If the Dodgers want to make themselves better now and in the future, we can not count on what the market will make available and bear in the future.

2007-11-15 11:04:37
34.   ToyCannon
or expectations
2007-11-15 11:05:28
35.   philmc78
After reading up on things today, I'm starting to waver on going after Miguel Cabrera. By keeping all the young guys, the Dodgers would have a lot of depth for a relatively cheap price. With the money they would've spent on A-Rod or an extension for Cabrera, they could splurge on a starter and some relievers--maybe even Aaron Rowand or Torii Hunter.

If Colletti really wants to make a spalsh, he should deal Juan Pierre for anything he can get. That would be a prime example of addition by subtraction. Do it, Ned!

2007-11-15 11:05:40
36.   KG16
31 - fair enough. I guess it kind of strikes me as a doctrinal point that I just don't quite understand. But then, I try and not be too dogmatic when it comes to baseball and life.
2007-11-15 11:07:43
37.   regfairfield
33 I do agree, and I think there's almost no way all three of those guys make it to free agency. However, I'm not relying on any of those guys to make my ideas work.
2007-11-15 11:08:04
38.   Disabled List
19 It's just that there's more variables involved in the development of pitchers than around hitters.

To illustrate: 4 years ago, we were all just as high on Greg Miller as we are now on Kershaw. Last we saw of Greg, he had been demoted back down to AA, and his future as a big-leaguer looks very dim.

2007-11-15 11:09:48
39.   Sushirabbit
I like Jones, but though he could be really good again, my feeling is that he is on the decline. It's not just that he had his injuries last year and the cortisone shots. It's that his knees appear to be going away. Still he's probably the best outfielder I've seen in person.

There seems to be a lot of dislike for Rowand. What is that based on?

If they sign anyone I hope it means Pierre will be the most expensive 4th OFer in history

2007-11-15 11:09:51
40.   thinkblue0
ESPN is reporting that we're hot on Rowand.

I think I'm going to be sick.

2007-11-15 11:11:08
41.   regfairfield
39 I really don't like guys who have career years on a contract year. Not to mention that he's been close to replacement level three of his five full time seasons.
2007-11-15 11:12:47
42.   Humma Kavula
32 is about as clear an explanation of the ARONS philosophy as any. I concur entirely.

We didn't get A-Rod. I'm disappointed, but if he wants to be a Yankee that much, what can you do. I'd have offered 10/300 over the 10/280 he got, but maybe that wouldn't have gotten it done.

So now do nothing and put the money, next year, into Santana, who is worth it. No Rowands, no Hunters, no Jonses. Do not give up the future for Cabrera, great as he is, when you can sign him in two years.

No A-Rod? OK. ARONS still applies.

2007-11-15 11:13:03
43.   Greg Brock
39 If they sign Rowand, it means Kemp or Ethier is out the door. Colletti is not going to bench or trade his blunder, because it would magnify the blunderness of the blunder.

We're going to pay for his mistake one more year.

2007-11-15 11:13:07
44.   Xeifrank
28. For every Pedro Martinez type you can name I can name a Ryan Anderson, Roger Salkeld, Brian Taylor, Bill Pulsipher, Rick Ankiel, Paul Wilson etc..

vr, Xei

2007-11-15 11:13:23
45.   the2pin
Rowand is a horrible, unforgivable acquisiton
2007-11-15 11:13:58
46.   CarlosDeC
From, an Keith Law Chat on This made me feel better for a little bit, at least we arent the only ones hesitant to make the everyone for Miggy trade.

Fred (Austin, TX): Am I overvaluing Dodger prospects? It seems that any combination of three- Billingsley, Kemp, Kershaw, LaRoche or Loney is too high a price for a guy you can keep for two years. Maybe one of those guys (NOT Loney) plus Ethier, and eat much of Pierre's contract and maybe even a mid-level prospect (such as McDonald)

Keith Law: (2:04 PM ET ) I agree. If I'm Colletti, Kemp, Loney, Kershaw, and Billingsley are untouchable. I'd deal LaRoche, but I wouldn't be in a rush, and I'd like to give him one shot at the job first. Ethier I'd deal. Broxton & Meloan I'd deal. Elbert if/when he's healthy, Abreu, even Hu. But not the big four.

2007-11-15 11:14:32
47.   CajunDodger
I am not down on Rowand per se, but he is, in my opinion, not a good fit for the Dodgers. Andruw Jones would be better because of the power that he brings to the table. I am still unsure about signing a CF without shipping Pierre, but if we were going to sign one, Jones would be a better fit.
2007-11-15 11:14:35
48.   FirstMohican
Has it been mentioned that in 2005 Aaron Rowand Knew What It Took?

I'll take Miggy but if we're going to give up high ceiling pitching, I'd rather get Santana.

Does anyone else feel like they have yet to hear a rumor with a shred of credibility that actually makes them feel good about '08?

Examples might be "Dodgers to pursue Santana/Cabrera and actually are NOT opposed to requiring an extension negotiation window" or "Dodgers to consider platoon and pinch runner-hitter role for Pierre if free agent outfielder is signed". I'd personally like to hear "Dodgers close to deal with A-Rod, plan on dealing Furcal for prospects to help replenish those lost on inevitable trade for Johan Santana and GM Colletti to retire, claiming he is 'going out on the top of my game'; Pierre to be released." Maybe that's too long of a headline.

2007-11-15 11:15:28
49.   MC Safety
Didnt some talking head writer the other day predict Andruw Jones would be a Dodger? I forget where I heard it. Please no Rowand.
2007-11-15 11:15:47
50.   Xeifrank
I agree with TOYC in #32. So much so that I am going to get a tattoo of what he said. Gonna have to be a really small font though.
vr, Xei
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-11-15 11:15:54
51.   bhsportsguy
I loved being LATed.

For those who wonder why I among many are excited about the future, lets look back at the history of Dodger drafts prior to 2002 (Logan White's first season).

First Round Picks (1988-2001)

1988 - Bill Bene RHP
1989 - Jamie McAndrew RHP
1990 - Ron Walden P
1991 - No First Round Pick
1992 - Ryan Luzinski C
1993 - Darren Dreifort RHP
1994 - Paul Konerko C
1995 - David Yocum P
1996 - Damian Rolls 3B
1997 - Glenn Davis 1B
1998 - Bubba Crosby OF
1999 - Jason Repko OF
2000 - Ben Diggens P
2001 - No First Round Pick

Sure Konerko turned out to be a very good player (for the White Sox), Dreifort never quite lived up to being the 2nd player picked (behind A-Rod) but mostly dreck, not even servicable dreck for those years before Logan White.

I used 1988 is starting point because that was the last year when the Dodgers drafted two players that became All-Star caliber or good MLB players who played for many years for the Dodgers.

Piazza - 62nd Round Draft Pick (1988)
Karros - 6th Round Draft Pick (1988)
Hollandsworth - 3rd Round Pick (1991)
Jose Offerman - Amateur Free Agent (1986)
Raul Mondesi - Amateur Free Agent (1988)
Chan Ho Park - Amateur Free Agent (1994)

THe Dodgers drafted and signed Piazza, Karros in 1988. Todd Hollandsworth was drafted in the 3rd round (their fist pick) in 1991.

It is possible that more impact talent was drafted and signed in 2002 and 2003 since the late 1960's when Garvey, Cey, et. al., were first signed with the Dodgers.

That is why the Miggy deal is so disquieting to me, I can see the logic behind it, but I hope the Angels pull the trigger.

2007-11-15 11:18:10
52.   ToyCannon
As Jon has stated before, Ned needs to win this year more then worry about covering his butt. If he wins, his past mistakes will be buried under the hubris of celebration. I don't see how getting Rowand/Hunter/Jones and putting JP in LF will make that happen unless he follows that up with trading a package that includes Kemp or Etheir for Miggy/Santana/Bedard.
2007-11-15 11:18:30
53.   bhsportsguy
51 BTW, those drafts do not foresee good things for Ivan DeJesus, Jr, Scott Van Slyke or Preston Mattingly.
2007-11-15 11:20:05
54.   Greg Brock
52 I don't see how moving him to LF improves the odds of winning, either. But Ned Colletti might really think it's the way to improve.

Which is why most of us don't think Ned Colletti is very good at his job.

2007-11-15 11:20:11
55.   Jon Weisman
I thought this was interesting from Torre:

Don Mattingly (hitting coach) and Larry Bowa (third base coach) are following Torre from New York to Los Angeles. But Ron Guidry, expected to be replaced as Yankees pitching coach, isn't coming along.

"I talked to Gator and I told him that I really wanted to stay closer to the Dodger organization since they had a lot of young pitchers. I thought it was the best thing to do," Torre said. "He's just going to stay home."

2007-11-15 11:21:50
56.   KG16
44 - but lots of guys don't pan out, at every position. It's the nature of the business.
2007-11-15 11:24:02
57.   Sam DC
writeup of Lasorda/Plaschke at the Smithsonian.

(note -- I have not read this, and the bloggers are somewhat notorious for the fact that one of them has some professional connection to MASN which they don't disclose on their blog and yet they write glowing panegyrics to all things MASN).

2007-11-15 11:24:55
58.   ToyCannon

How many times have DT posters started out a sentence "if the worse he does is...."

Sucks not having any confidence in your GM.

2007-11-15 11:27:45
59.   bigcpa
Rowand's closest B-ref comp is Eric Byrnes. Through Age 29 his 5th closest comp is Shea Hillenbrand. Pass!
2007-11-15 11:27:52
60.   ToyCannon
I don't understand the quote. I read the article and the quote still makes no sense to me.
2007-11-15 11:28:33
61.   Greg Brock
58 Moving what's-his-face to LF means that his biggest detriment is his arm. That's the biggest problem.

Not his batting
Not his batting
His arm.
We talkin' arms, man

That's a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem.

2007-11-15 11:29:09
62.   CajunDodger

I wonder what Billy Beane would do with $120 million. He is so good in the $60-70 million, I wonder what he could do with the Dodger payroll.

2007-11-15 11:29:28
63.   Humma Kavula
The only argument in favor of Pierre-to-LF that made any sense at all, to me, was this:

It's hard to find a good CF. Depending on your point of view, there might be one on the market this year -- Jones -- and because of his recent stinky play, he might be available at somewhat of a discount.

So sign him and move Pierre to left, where it will be immediately clear that he can't cut it. It's much easier to replace a left fielder.

Of course, the Dodgers could just bench Pierre right now, and that's where that argument fails.

2007-11-15 11:31:15
64.   Greg Brock
63 If Kemp plays CF, and puts up corner outfielder numbers, it kind of offsets the other guy playing LF. Kind of.

Again, it's limiting the damage. We always seem to be doing that with this GM.

2007-11-15 11:31:32
65.   underdog
If signing Aaron Rowand happened in tandem with getting rid of Juan Pierre (somehow), I'd be all for it. If it doesn't, well, I'm agin' it!

55 I don't quite get that quote... Does he mean he will work as pitching coach?

2007-11-15 11:32:19
66.   silverwidow
60 Torre is saying that he prefers internal candidates for pitching coach (Honeycutt) because we have a lot of youth.
2007-11-15 11:33:17
67.   Jon Weisman
66 - ... and an internal candidate would be more familiar with them.
2007-11-15 11:34:04
68.   the2pin
Aaron Rowand is an unconscionable acquisition. It simply cannot happen.
2007-11-15 11:34:36
69.   CajunDodger
It seems to me that we could find a taker for Pierre the same way we found a taker for Shawn Green. We got NOTHING for him and ate his salary, but we also did the whole addition by subtraction thing...
2007-11-15 11:34:47
70.   Daniel Zappala
I am open to the possibility that the Dodgers recognize Pierre was a mistake and are trying to acquire a CFer. When asked what they will do with Pierre they say "umm... we'll move him to LF", recognizing that they can't just say "we made a mistake, he'll be a bench player". They will then try to trade him, somehow.

Sure, I'm one of the few optimists around here, but I think it's possible. Colletti has demonstrated he's open to changing directions when he realizes he is wrong.

Critics of the "Pierre-to-LF" comments need to recognize that the start of the season is a long ways away.

2007-11-15 11:35:20
71.   Humma Kavula
65 I'm not for Aaron Rowand under any circumstances.

I could be for Jones, on a overpay-for-short-years Furcalesque contract, if and only if it means Pierre is traded or rides the bench, and I expect neither of those things will happen, so I'm not for Jones, either.

2007-11-15 11:36:18
72.   ToyCannon
66 67
Thanks, it was the "I" that confused me.
2007-11-15 11:37:07
73.   fanerman
71 Yeah. Rowand no. Hunter no. Jones maybe, if we get rid of JP.
2007-11-15 11:38:06
74.   derek22
i too have no clue what he means by that quote.

i'm pretty sure the move to left for JP is a defensive move and has nothing to do with offense.

there is less room to cover, so his bad jumps arent as glaring, and shorter throws so his weak arm isnt hurting us as much.

but the offensive reason people are stating is balogna....if you move kemp to center and JP to left you still have the same offensive prouction from those 2 positions....

sign jones, ship pierre for a reliever. leave laroche at 3rd. we good man

2007-11-15 11:38:33
76.   silverwidow
Never underestimate Ned's desire for guys that "play the game the right way." Rowand likely fits that mold in his mind.
2007-11-15 11:38:40
77.   ToyCannon
I am also open to such a possibility. It is important that I build my hopes high enough so that when they are dashed I have a good reason to drink.
2007-11-15 11:40:33
78.   CajunDodger
That is certainly ideal from our cheap seats. Maybe we could flip someone for a bit more pitching depth, but a straight Jones-JP swap would do it for me. Let's just offer to eat about $25 million, fill in some holes on our AA and AAA rosters and call it a day.
2007-11-15 11:40:35
79.   derek22
77 CHEERS... tis why i am a dodger fan...and laker fan nowadays....good thing my steelers keep me from committing suicide.
2007-11-15 11:40:49
80.   bhsportsguy
69 Juan Pierre is simply unmovable for at least 2 more years, I don't even think its an issue with his salary as much as it is the length of the deal.

Even if the Dodgers offered to pay 50% of his salary, I don't see anyone taking him.

2007-11-15 11:41:26
81.   ToyCannon
That kind of move would seem to be beyond the scope of Ned, and McCourt must not have appreciated just how slick that deal was since he jettisoned the man responsible for getting him out from under such a terrible contract. If only Arizona still had the same management that not only took Shawn Green but extended him.
2007-11-15 11:41:49
82.   underdog
72 Ah yes, what Toy said, now it makes sense. Thanks for translating that from Yankeespeak to Dodgerspeak.

Anyway, I totally agree with Jon's post here, and with Jim Callis, so I can't add anything, really. Just keep LaRoche, forget the Marlins' ridiculous trade demands. If you want to add more outfield depth, fine, but only if it relegates you-know-who to the bench, and I'd rather they focus on finding one more good pitcher and be done with it. I know Colletti feels a lot of pressure for this season, both from his expiring contract and from the wind coming from Jeff Kent's... motorcycle, but he's got so much young talent to work with already.

Or, as was said in Star Wars, "Stay on target... almost there... stay on target..."
(Of course, I think that guy got blown up, but don't tell Ned that part.)

2007-11-15 11:42:42
83.   ToyCannon
You missed an exciting finish.
2007-11-15 11:43:09
84.   CajunDodger
Why does it seem that everyone else's guys that "play the game the right way" are way cheaper (Eckstein) or more productive (Wright, Helton, Lowell) than the guys that Ned gets (Nomar and our CF)
2007-11-15 11:43:46
85.   CajunDodger
Why does it seem that everyone else's guys that "play the game the right way" are way cheaper (Eckstein) or more productive (Wright, Helton, Lowell) than the guys that Ned gets (Nomar and our CF)
2007-11-15 11:44:09
86.   CajunDodger
Dang It!
2007-11-15 11:44:13
87.   Daniel Zappala
77 For the record, you probably also drink when your hopes and dreams are fulfilled, too, right? :-)
2007-11-15 11:44:29
88.   derek22
84 85 de ja vu
2007-11-15 11:46:22
89.   Bob Timmermann
I have days when my hopes and dreams go unfulfilled.

I call them weekdays.

2007-11-15 11:46:33
90.   derek22
how do y'all link the message you are commenting to?...
2007-11-15 11:47:59
91.   Sam DC
90 Use square brackets around the comment number -- click the little help link above the comment box for info.
2007-11-15 11:49:07
92.   bhsportsguy
81 Again, different situation than Juan Pierre, Shawn Green was in the last year of his contract and he had a complete no-trade clause so the only way Shawn Green would waive the deal was to get Arizona to extend the deal for two more years.
2007-11-15 11:50:07
93.   Greg Brock
90 All the nifty tricks:

2007-11-15 11:50:37
94.   KG16
The Yankees are apparently now interested in Lowell as their first baseman. Maybe we can undo Proctor for Betimet.
2007-11-15 11:50:44
95.   bhsportsguy
81 And he was also the same guy who gave Drew the opt-out clause that hastened both Nomar's and Juan Pierre's signing. Just being fair.
2007-11-15 11:51:20
96.   derek22
91 thank you :)
2007-11-15 11:51:41
97.   bhsportsguy
94 I'd rather have Proctor.
2007-11-15 11:52:10
98.   bhsportsguy
83 I felt so stupid.
2007-11-15 11:53:03
99.   old dodger fan
94 I would rather have LaRoche and Proctor than LaRoche and Betemit.
2007-11-15 11:53:11
100.   ToyCannon
I wonder if La Duca would mind backing up Martin:)

So the Mets went after Posada hard and ending up giving him a great bargaining trip, then ended up with two backup catchers for millions of dollars. That is how to play the field agent market.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-11-15 11:53:46
101.   regfairfield
95 And how much would we hate J.D. if he played for us this year?

Considering that there was the option of "replace J.D. with Kemp" or "anyone but Juan Pierre", I don't see how DePo even had an indirect effect on those signings.

2007-11-15 11:53:53
102.   Sam DC
Cool photo --
2007-11-15 11:55:46
103.   KG16
100 - my guess is Lo Duca is going to want to be a starter somewhere. And honestly, I can see an AL team taking a chance on him as a for-average/OBP DH and part time catcher.
2007-11-15 11:59:04
104.   Bob Timmermann
The photographer would have to have left town for the $100 bill shot.

And perhaps gone to Egypt to find an unfinished pyramid with a freaky eye above it for the $1.

2007-11-15 12:01:00
105.   uke
100 He'd be to expensive for a back-up.
2007-11-15 12:02:08
106.   bhsportsguy
101 Yes, but you are not thinking like Ned, I just think many forgive the previous GM while not recognizing that those types of moves did affect how the current GM does his job.
2007-11-15 12:02:26
107.   ToyCannon
I wonder if JD will become a complete platoon player next season. His splits against LHP are killing his numbers. He used to be able to hit them but the trend has been down for several years now.
2007-11-15 12:03:54
108.   ToyCannon
The suggestion was made with tongue in cheek.

I used to be a big fan and then he opened his mouth one to many times.

2007-11-15 12:07:46
109.   Xeifrank
56. Of course, but lots of people who making a living at these studies agree that pitchers pan out less than positional players do. One study looked at the Top 100 pitching prospects from 1990-2004 and of those pitchers only 25% of them became roster-worthy material.

If you don't believe it, that's fine. I am not going to try to convince you otherwise, just like the playoff crapshoot. I will take the word of the people who study these things.

vr, Xei

2007-11-15 12:08:58
110.   D4P
The fan comments that puts up on its front page are mind-dumbing.
2007-11-15 12:09:56
111.   CajunDodger
For comparison purposes, did the study say how positional prospects fared?
2007-11-15 12:10:37
112.   still bevens
107 A 15 mil a year platoon player? Only in the AL east!
2007-11-15 12:12:03
113.   regfairfield
106 Should he have to think "if J.D. opts out and I get replaced by a guy with questionable player evaluation skills, there could be problems?" Seems like it's asking too much.
2007-11-15 12:15:39
114.   underdog
There was a piece in the Denver Post today that mentions the Rockies might be interested in LoDuca, too, with Torrealba gone. (Though I agree with the post above, that the AL seems a more likely destination for him at this point... though he knows the NL more.)

Anyway, I'd prefer the Dodgers just re-sign Lieberthal, or let another kid backup Martin.

2007-11-15 12:19:44
115.   Sushirabbit
the2pin, thanks for nothing.

I'd rather keep what we have than trade away. Still, there are some free agents. Pierre is the problem, and fielding is not exactly coming up in the ranks. There's alot to like about Jones, but as I stated earlier, my perception is that there is more risk there than I'd be willing to gamble on.

I'm not high on Rowand, he may even be the flip side of Pierre in that he's much better defensively but not that good at all offensively. Still he's had some good years and streaks. And because of the way this funky team is constructed (Pitching, Kent, Pierre) I think defensive CF is worth alot-- Something I have my doubts that Kemp can handle (or Pierre or Ethier for that matter).

While Rowand is not the best he doesn't fare horribly in defensive metrics. See ducksnorts nice write up:

2007-11-15 12:20:01
116.   Humma Kavula
114 let another kid backup Martin

Kid Piazza!

2007-11-15 12:20:59
117.   Jon Weisman
114 - Why not have the position backing up Martin be a periodic fan giveaway, like getting to drag the infield during Think Blue Week.
2007-11-15 12:26:00
118.   CajunDodger
Shoot, I may not play the defense of Paul Bako, but I think that I could Hit within 30 to 40 points of him...
2007-11-15 12:27:17
119.   Greg Brock
The Dodgers next backup catcher? Jim Sorgi.
2007-11-15 12:27:48
120.   old dodger fan
Isn't that why we bought Chad Moeller's contract? He's not a good hitter but how many AB's is Martin's backup going to get?
2007-11-15 12:28:08
121.   underdog
117 I'm game! I still have my catcher's mitt from junior school somewhere... Not that I'd need it. Winning would be more of a symbolic gesture, unless you happened to win during the one day a month when Martin is rested.
2007-11-15 12:28:28
122.   Humma Kavula
115 Rowand, as they say, is all over the map defensively. Like Pierre, no one can agree on what kind of defender he is. RZR has him 16th out of 17th.

To me, he seems like a poor man's Andruw Jones -- all the same liabilities (namely, he might not hit) and benefits (better defender than Pierre)... but not as much. Why do you advocate Rowand over Jones?

2007-11-15 12:28:44
123.   Ken Noe
I wonder if Rowand is suddenly on the radar because now Hunter is supposedly Texas bound (Olney column) and something else is up with Jones? Or Ned doesn't want to deal with Jones's agent.
2007-11-15 12:30:49
124.   regfairfield
The Dodgers actual backup catcher shouldn't matter. Jose Molina or whatever.

I do think we should make a strong play J.R. House or trade for a decent minor league catcher in case Russ does go down.

2007-11-15 12:31:12
125.   Marty
If Rowand replaced our LOOGY in center, I'd be happy. But both of them in the outfield? Not so much.
2007-11-15 12:33:54
126.   fanerman
125 That's a great description of Slappy.
2007-11-15 12:43:02
127.   old dodger fan
123 Hunter to Texas? That's like going to Baltimore. Certainly he would rather play in LA. Hunter in CF and JP to the bench makes us a much better team and we lose none of the good young players.
2007-11-15 12:43:53
128.   blue22
Rowand isn't as bad as an investment as Hunter would be, but it's close. This is a bad idea.

Per Olney:

Beyond the offense and defense Rowand provides, the Dodgers hope he will also help change the culture of the team.

he also is regarded as one of the great character players in baseball.

2007-11-15 12:44:48
129.   blue22
127 - Hunter lives less than an hour from Arlington, and they need an OFer pretty desperately. It's a pretty good fit (assuming he doesn't feel like winning often).
2007-11-15 12:47:33
130.   D4P
he also is regarded as one of the great character players in baseball

What kinds of characters does he play?

2007-11-15 12:50:49
131.   derek22
He played the "have a huge contract year" character pretty well...
5 bux says he plays the "do nothing after that" character pretty well too...
2007-11-15 12:52:00
132.   Daniel Zappala
Rowand would be a huge upgrade for CF, because we currently don't have a CFer. Last year's CFer has ceased to exist.

To me, the proper comparison is Rowand versus other candidates -- Repko? Kemp or Ethier in CF? Do we have an adequate alternative?

2007-11-15 12:53:01
133.   Dark Horse
128-Gaahhh. That's the sort of thing that makes me insane. There's absolutely no excuse for assuming Rowand provides much better offense than Andre Ethier, but furthermore, it's not the "culture of the team" that needs any sort of changing at all. It's the production. Period. We win baseball games, Kent shuts his yap, Lowe stops complaining, and Kemp can schlep trashcans around the clubhouse all day. The idiotic signing (should we make it) of a guy who peaked out last year at 27 dingers with the luxury of guys like Howard and Utley hitting in the same lineup would likely be enough to turn me away from this team for life, or until Colletti got fired, whichever came first. Even if we can miraculously make Pierre disappear, it's a stupid signing. Should it occur, all is lost.
2007-11-15 12:53:04
134.   fanerman
I've said it before, millions of times, but I'd be thrilled with an OF of Ethier, Jones, Kemp.
2007-11-15 12:54:52
135.   derek22
134 that seems to be the concensus today, which mean it will definitly not happen
2007-11-15 12:55:10
136.   blue22
130 - Kind of a poor man's Frank Caliendo. Always kills 'em with his Al Pacino. Hoo-AH! Hoo-AH!
2007-11-15 12:55:31
137.   Ken Noe
127 Olney, FWIW: "An executive with some knowledge of Torii Hunter's discussions predicts he will sign with Texas for six years and $90 million."
2007-11-15 12:56:00
138.   briano
116 I'm with you. Piazza finishing his career as a Dodger is a no brainer and great for the PR guys. Piazza would definitely go in the Hall as a Dodger. The Dodgers need to start giving respect to Piazza and initiate some gratitude to a guy who had his best years in baseball as a Dodger. The Yankees don't forget their former players. The Dodgers need to return to their roots and remember: Once a Dodger always a Dodger. Sign Piazza.
2007-11-15 12:56:19
139.   KG16
I'm getting the feeling that this off season is going to be the one that determines whether I remain a Dodger fan or give into the temptation that is only a few minutes from my home.
2007-11-15 12:56:26
140.   regfairfield
132 Actual reality would be Rowand and a mediocre starter versus Ethier and several million dollars.
2007-11-15 12:56:44
141.   Sam DC
Should it occur, all is lost.

That's dark, even for someone with Dark in their name.

2007-11-15 12:57:11
142.   underdog
134 I agree. Andruw Jones, or forget the rest, is my motto. Move the non-existent guy to LF, put Kemp in CF, not too shabby. But Jones squeezing out non-existent guy would be much better.

130 I know, sounds like he played Kaspar Gutman in a local production of "The Maltese Falcon."

2007-11-15 12:57:17
143.   derek22
According to "moneyball" and "sabermetic" enthusiasts...poor defense weighs very little versus run production....

as much as you all hate on pierre, you cannot deny he is a run producer...low OB% or not the guy makes things happen when he is on base.

2007-11-15 12:58:39
144.   Greg Brock
143 Please elaborate on "run producer" for me. How, exactly?
2007-11-15 12:59:23
145.   driches
i was trying to explain to myself how the disconnect between the actions of the GM (pierre, gonzo, rowand, hunter, etc) and the collective wisdom of the fanbase (keep/play the kids) could be so wide. is it possible that Ned simply loves playing GM, and can't stand the idea of standing pat when he can trade and sign and wheel and deal? obviously, the rumor mill is the rumor mill, but it seems like he's pursuing every overrated player in baseball. maybe he's just got cash burning a hole in his pocket, and he's gotta spend it somewhere?

if rowand is a character guy, does that make pierre a physical comedian?

2007-11-15 12:59:37
146.   regfairfield
143 Did you miss the several chapters they spent on the importance of on base percentage?

And sabermetric people that aren't stuck in 2001 value defense very highly.

2007-11-15 12:59:51
147.   fanerman
143 The major problem (or one of them) with Slappy McLOOGY is he does not get on-base very often.
2007-11-15 12:59:59
148.   blue22
137 - Now that is a bad idea, of the "Normally I wear protection, but then I thought, 'When am I gonna make it back to Haiti?'" variety.

Rowand at 5/$60M is just on par with "I thought about it, and even though it's over, I'm going to tell my wife about the affair."

Bad Idea Jeans. The only jeans endorsed by Ned Colletti.

2007-11-15 13:00:09
149.   dzzrtRatt
I've been reading a book about Abraham Lincoln that puts this "character" issue into some perspective.

If Aaron Rowand is such a great character, what's he doing playing baseball when he could be dealing with much bigger problems in the world?

Baseball is entertainment. Few entertainers are also great "character people," and some of them are outright scumbags. But if they can act or sing well, or tell a good joke, we're all there, money in our hands. And entertainers work in close quarters just as much if not more than athletes on a team like the Dodgers. Lots of movies are made successfully despite "bad chemistry" on the set.

Let's make sure our next president, the next CEO of Citicorp, and the head of the Norris Cancer Center are great "character people." Don't waste all that great character people on something as frivolous as baseball.

If finding great character people is the business Ned wants to be in, he should be working for an executive recruiting firm or a political party.

2007-11-15 13:00:54
150.   D4P
Juan Pierre scores greater than zero runs and drives in greater than zero runs.

Every season.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-11-15 13:01:01
151.   Dark Horse
143-What exactly does he "make happen" though? And doesn't the low OB% negate that? Like it'd be better to have a guy on base more often--and thus have more opportunities--than to have a guy who "makes this happen" less often? It's the question of him leading the league in outs, turned upside down.
2007-11-15 13:02:44
152.   old dodger fan
Comparing Rowand vs Hunter some posters here favor Rowand but I am having trouble figuring out why.

Both appear to be able to play the position as Rowand has 3 Gold Gloves and Hunter has 7.

They are about the same age, Rowand is 29 Hunter is 31.

Rowand has a career OPS+ of 106 while Hunter's is 104. Rowand's has more variance. Over the past 4 years (listing 2004 first) his OPS+ has been 130; 93; 86; and 123 while Hunters has been 104; 106; 112; and 122.

Looking at the past 4 years as a whole there does not seem to be a lot of difference. I won't comment on the character thing as I never been too good a judge of that.

2007-11-15 13:03:45
153.   KG16
144 - yeah, I'm a bit confused on that point as well. He doesn't hit home runs and doesn't have a lot of RBIs. He does tend to score a lot of runs (three seasons with 100 runs, two more with 96), but given his lack of power, that says more about the guys hitting behind him. If anything, if the guy could hit better than the .301 AVE with a .348 OBP for his career, he'd probably score a lot more runs.

As far as the defense goes... as I think I've argued quite a bit, the key to winning is to score more than the other team. Good defense and pitching means the other team scores less, meaning it's easier to win games because you don't have to score as much.

2007-11-15 13:06:21
154.   Greg Brock
152 Actually, almost everybody favors "neither."
2007-11-15 13:08:26
155.   fanerman
142 AJONS? The asterisk is getting Slappy McSuck out of the line-up.
2007-11-15 13:08:34
156.   silverwidow
Ethier/Rowand/Kemp is a solid OF.

Pierre/Rowand/Kemp or Ethier is overpaid mediocrity.

2007-11-15 13:09:20
157.   natepurcell
Oh come on, Aaron Rowand?!?!

Does Colletti really want me to go on a murdering spree?

2007-11-15 13:11:47
158.   derek22
ok you got pierre and his low OBP, all that means is he isnt walkin as much as other....he also isnt striking out.

now take his 60ish SB's
putting himself in scoring position makes up for other players who walk more and stay on first.

he has had OBP in the 370's twice, and over 350 4 times, for a non-walk guy thats not bad.

he has had 5 or less errors every year but his second.

outfield assists
2006- pierre 5 jones-4 rowand- 6
2007- pierre 4 jones-3

in '07 rowand had 11 but 5-6 is the norm with years with less and 8 once.

and any guy who is scoring 96 runs on that team last year is a run producer.

and no defense is STILL not as important as scoring runs, and OBP is important for some players, but not as much for spead guys... OBP is HUGE for slow sluggers

2007-11-15 13:12:30
159.   blue22
152 - I'll take the guy that's cheaper (in contract length and annual salary), younger (they're actually 30 and 32 respectively), and has better plate discipline. Neither is as good as their defensive reputation may have you believe.

But yeah, I'm not happy about either though.

2007-11-15 13:13:18
160.   KG16
153 - if I had the time, I'd try and get a ratio of runs scored to OBP, just to see how Pierre does in that regard compared to other players. It's interesting, just looking at the raw numbers, only 35 guys scored more runs than Pierre in 2007, and if you control for HRs, the number is much less. I don't know if that actually shows some inherent value in Pierre or not, but something interesting to ponder, I think.
2007-11-15 13:14:07
161.   Suffering Bruin
144 Hits it on the head for me which is why at some point I'll be starting a fan club for the man.

I keep hearing people using terms like "run-producer." When I was a young-un, a player like Pierre was thought of as very valuable. Every team had one--a guy who hits .270-.300 with no power but could flat out fly on the basepaths. This was back in the day when stolen bases were considered very important.

We are older now and wiser and we've learned to ask the "why" questions. I never, ever thought to challenge the label "run-producer." People in the game talked like that and I wanted to talk like that, too.

What's my point? I don't think Ned is far enough removed from the baseballspeak. I think he still buys the run-producer, chemistry, character stuff.

It scares me to think what the Dodgers will give up to get Cabrera.

2007-11-15 13:16:03
162.   natepurcell
I might take a Steve like sabbatical if Colletti turn's this offseason into a PVL lovefest.
2007-11-15 13:17:15
163.   natepurcell
Then again, these are just rumors and I'm probably overreacting. I just have no faith in Colletti to do anything right.
2007-11-15 13:17:17
164.   Xeifrank
Just had to do a quick check of the calender. Nope, it's not April 1st.
vr, Xei
2007-11-15 13:17:28
165.   ToyCannon
He's not a run producer but was the best base runner in baseball according to Baseball Prospectus. I think that amounted for just a little less then one win but don't quote me.
2007-11-15 13:17:47
166.   Bleed Dodger Blue
I too think the Dodgers balk at whatever ungodly sum the Marlins are asking. But I guess I'd be OK with a trade for Miggy, so long as we don't give up Billingsley. Kemp, LaRoche and Kershaw? Tough pill to swallow ... but I wouldn't jump off a cliff.

Kemp, LaRoche, Kershaw and Hu? Not a chance. Three hotshot prospects is more than enough.

2007-11-15 13:17:51
167.   Humma Kavula
160 only 35 guys scored more runs than Pierre in 2007, and if you control for HRs, the number is much less

I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.

35 guys is a lot of guys, especially when Pierre's use as a hitter is supposed to be getting on base and scoring.

And why, exactly, would we control for HR? Do runs scored by HR count less than runs scored other ways?

2007-11-15 13:18:32
168.   ToyCannon
Murderous ramapage - over reacting - you think
2007-11-15 13:18:47
169.   Greg Brock
158 I would suggest that instead of looking at counting stats (hits, runs, steals, RsBI), you shift to rate stats (OBP, Slugging, etc.) and comparative stats (OPS+ VORP, etc.).

Raw totals don't mean much. If I make ten free throws, and you make 9, it doesn't make me better than you if I got thirty extra chances.

Percentages matter. Raw totals...Not so much.

2007-11-15 13:19:10
170.   natepurcell
Congrats to Brad Penny and his 3rd place finish in the Cy Young voting.
2007-11-15 13:19:21
171.   still bevens
I would like to cheer for a team who doesn't have a GM whose moves range from ? to MY DEAR LORD.

But what am I gonna do? Im stuck with this one for the long haul.

2007-11-15 13:19:28
172.   derek22
my point is not to defend pierre's low obp

what im sayin is, on a low-power team like we have, you cannot sit on first base and wait for homers.

when pierre is on base his speed and SB's turn our weak mid-lineup hitters singles, and doubles into runs where others cannot.

that is evident in the fact that he can score nearly 100 runs on a weak hitting team.

2007-11-15 13:21:31
173.   ToyCannon
The comedy of Rowand in CF and Repko in LF would be great as they keep slamming into each other chasing balls that are uncatchable but looking good doing it. All we would need is Ryan Freel in LF. I hear he's available.
2007-11-15 13:21:32
174.   Greg Brock
172 He scored so many runs because he played every game and had approximately ten thousand plate appearances.

Again, raw totals are a very poor indicator of things.

2007-11-15 13:21:40
175.   regfairfield
160 He also came to the plate more often than all but two guys.
2007-11-15 13:22:11
176.   Xeifrank
172. He scores alot of runs because... oh wait, why am I even bothering.

vr, Xei

2007-11-15 13:23:47
177.   fanerman
158 Why is getting strikeouts a horrible thing but getting pop outs not so much? Have you ever seen the league leaders in strikeouts? They're usually pretty good players.

The SB's are nice, but his success rate is nothing to write home about, so he doesn't help the team as much as the amount of SB's would suggest (though he does help).

If he OBP's .370, there'd be a lot less complaining. A good OBP is a good OBP, regardless of whether the player is a "walk guy" or not. More walks means the OBP is less tied to batting average. So a guy in a slump can still get on base.

Errors are a bad way to measure defense.

Outfield assists are a horrible way to measure defense. Are you suggesting Pierre has a good arm?

Scoring 96 runs while playing all 162 games is not that impressive. Runs scored is a function of the people hitting behind a player, the amount of games played, and is not a good metric overall for measuring offensive production.

A run saved on defense is just as good as a run scored on offense. Granted, there are probably less opportunities to save runs than to score runs.

OBP is weighted slightly too less for speed guys and weighted slightly too much for slow guys. But it's important nonetheless. Slappy doesn't get on-base and doesn't hit for power. His defense is okay probably, but not elite. His speed is useful but he's not a super base stealer. Slappy just sucks.

2007-11-15 13:23:51
178.   wronghanded
158 Of assists are very subjective in the fact that people run on Pierre nominally more than they run on Jones. Jones has a cannon, Pierre has a squirt gun. How many extra bases did Pierre give up to opponents last season in comparison to Jones?

and no defense is STILL not as important as scoring runs

I disagree, our team is built on pitching and as a team, we need to compliment our best asset with players that can help it thrive. Pierre does not do that, even Coletti sees it now. If another team can't score because of our pitching and defense, it can't win. Look at the Padres over the past couple of seasons, how many 1-0 ball games have they won?

2007-11-15 13:23:53
179.   derek22
i actually believe the JP could (and should) raise his OBP easily...

his low walk rate is the main factor in his low OBP, but does the fact that he also doesnt strike out (meaning he puts the ball in play) which is something that is stressed by coaches since little league) tells me that he has an excellent eye at seeing pitches.

2007-11-15 13:24:22
180.   silverwidow
"You can't microwave experience." - Ned Colletti
2007-11-15 13:25:14
181.   natepurcell
So is it a foregone conclusion that if Colletti acquires a CF in free agency, Kemp is probably traded since he's not going to dump Pierre?
2007-11-15 13:26:13
182.   D4P
I'm always amazed at how easy it is to troll on DodgerThoughts.

DTers are a very trusting group.

2007-11-15 13:26:33
183.   Greg Brock
179 If you were a pitcher, would you be afraid of throwing strikes to the guy? Of course not.

He doesn't walk because nobody walks banjo hitters. You want him to swing. And strikeouts don't matter. I can link to a study or two on the subject, if you'd like to read it. Pretty interesting stuff.

2007-11-15 13:27:07
184.   fanerman
What I'm saying is, Slappy does not help us being a low-power team. It seems like you're thinking about him being separate from the rest of the Dodgers, but he contributes more than any other Dodger for our low-power offense. Replacing him with someone with SOME power and SOME ability to get on-base would do wonders for us.
2007-11-15 13:27:36
185.   Ghost of Carlos Perez
I'm willing to back up Derek in defending Pierre's place on the team (although, I'm much less willing to use Pierre's woefull numbers in doing so).

Pierre is only an inch taller than I am, and he hit as many homers last year as I did in my entire little league career. I'll take him on my team!

That said, if the Dodgers could dump him, I'd be all for that too. But I won't boob and whine that he's on the team, if only because he's so scrappy.

2007-11-15 13:27:44
186.   Humma Kavula
Hey, everybody, look at the bright side. Only four more years of arguing about whether or not Juan Pierre is a good ballplayer.

BTW: He isn't.

2007-11-15 13:27:50
187.   fanerman
181 I think we've generally assumed Ethier would be the one to go.
2007-11-15 13:28:25
188.   regfairfield
183 Heck, you can be a banjo hitter and walk. Brett Butler didn't need no power. F.P. Santagelo? 21 home runs in 1700 at bats, still had an isolated patience of .119 for his career.
2007-11-15 13:29:35
189.   derek22
i agree that he isnt a great player...i also hope colletti doesnt make a trigger happy move to make up for it....

and even with his weak arm and low OBP he still creates more runs with his legs than he gives up with his arm.

and i would love for us to get jones...but im afraid colleti will do so at the expense of kemp or Ethier

read the last of this post 74

2007-11-15 13:29:56
190.   fanerman
179 If he has an excellent eye, he's not using it to maximize his production.
2007-11-15 13:30:19
191.   silverwidow
"If he was 25 or 26 years old and striking out a lot, I'd be worried," White said. "He'll figure it out and make the adjustments, and when he does, he'll never look back. Matt Kemp is going to be a superstar. There's no doubt in my mind." - Logan White
2007-11-15 13:30:56
192.   Humma Kavula
188 And Pierre has 12 HR in almost 4800 AB...

...oy, Juan Pierre has less than a third of the power that F.P. Santangelo had.

2007-11-15 13:31:08
193.   Xeifrank
This Juan Pierre seems like beating a dead horse to me. Can't we get a FAQ on the Juan Pierre talk to point people to whenever they bring up what a great player he is?
vr, Xei
2007-11-15 13:31:42
194.   regfairfield
189 That is true. But runs created with bat+glove+arm+legs is still a rather low number.
2007-11-15 13:32:13
195.   fanerman
193 Someone needs to start a "" website.
2007-11-15 13:32:31
196.   blue22
187 - You could get a heckuva return for Kemp. Ethier...a bullpen arm?
2007-11-15 13:33:16
197.   D4P
And someone needs to update the "" website.
2007-11-15 13:33:31
198.   derek22
we could get a better "return" by keeping them
2007-11-15 13:34:01
199.   Humma Kavula
197 I've been busy. And when Spawn comes -- tomorrow, maybe? -- just getting busier.
2007-11-15 13:35:32
200.   underdog
Sorry, but all debate about, that non-existent outfielder, now sounds like the teachers on a "Peanuts" special. "Mwah mwaah mwah..."
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-11-15 13:37:16
201.   natepurcell
I've been busy. And when Spawn comes -- tomorrow, maybe? -- just getting busier.


2007-11-15 13:37:16
202.   derek22
look on the brightside guys....our free agent alternative was gary mathews...we actually out-smarted the angels for once on that deal.
2007-11-15 13:37:37
203.   Xeifrank
195. Those type of sites are a little too effusive. A simple FAQ would be suffice.
vr, Xei
2007-11-15 13:37:39
204.   underdog
Peavy, Webb and then Penny is how I thought the Cy Young voting would go, and seems fair 'nuf. Bummer that Saito got no votes.
2007-11-15 13:38:04
205.   RELX
In the 11 seasons since the end of the Lasorda Era (1997-2007), the Dodgers have averaged 84.64 wins per season and have made the playoffs twice, losing both times in the first round.

In the first 12 seasons of the Lasorda Era (1977-1988), the Dodgers averaged 87.5 wins per season, made the playoffs six times, reached the World Series four times, winning two championships.

I use this example not to prove that Lasorda is the missing ingredient, because he isn't, but to point out the difference between the Dodger teams of the 1970s/1980s and the Dodgers of the late 1990s/2000s, which was a homegrown core. The early Lasorda teams where built around players who had come up through the Dodger system, like Garvey, Cey, Lopes, Russell, Yeager, Scoscia, Sax, Valenzuela, Welch, Guerrero, Hershisher, Howe, etc., with the occasional valuable piece added via trade/free agency, such as Dusty Baker, Reggie Smith, Jerry Reuss, or Kirk Gibson. Unlike the Dodger teams of the past decade, which have lacked a homegrown core, those earlier teams always a chance to be a championship contender because they had a solid foundation of homegrown players. Those extra three wins per season may seem statistically insignificant, but they are the difference between a "good" team and a "very good to great" team.

As many here have pointed out, the current Dodgers have a chance to once again build around a solid homegrown core of Martin, Loney, Kemp, LaRoche, Billingsley and Broxton, which others such as Kershaw on the way. For the Dodgers to trade away pieces of this new core--even for a Cabrera--guarantees that the team will continue to remain locked in the "good" 84.64 win slot, with little chance to move up to the "very good to great" 87.5 win slot.

2007-11-15 13:39:48
206.   Humma Kavula
201 Spawn of Kavula is now 11 days overdue. Going to the doctor today... we'll find out the plan for inducing.
2007-11-15 13:40:18
207.   fanerman
203 Maybe I will try to compile a Juan Pierre FAQ through a TrueBlueLA diary that I now seem to have.
2007-11-15 13:40:23
208.   dzzrtRatt
172 what im sayin is, on a low-power team like we have, you cannot sit on first base and wait for homers.

The logic here is circular. The Dodgers are a "low power team" in part because they have a centerfielder who never hits home runs. CF might not have the same power expectations as the corner positions, but "zero" falls short of even those reduced expectations.

And moving him to LF is the cherry on the fake whipped cream of a powerless Dodger offense. I think Bob T found that the last LF to hit zero home runs was back in the dead ball era.

We've been frogs sitting in this slowly boiling water for awhile, getting used to one of the most monumentally stupid ideas a team with pretensions of being a contender has ever come up with, putting a slap hitter in LF just because his speed is desired, but his defensive qualifications for CF fall short.

Not even perennial last place teams put players like Pierre in LF.

To nate's point in 181 , I can't believe even Colletti would stake his job on Pierre outperforming Kemp. And if he doesn't think his job and professional reputation are at stake, he's kidding himself. Kemp in a deal for Miggy is at least justifiable, under the right circumstances. But Kemp going because he's expendable? As much as I think McCourt is a boob, I think that's the last trade he'd let Colletti make.

Just think of the stakes, and maybe this is slightly reassuring. Kemp is traded for a Carlos Silva type pitcher. The pitcher is .500 or a little better. Kemp has 30+ home runs, high average, high OBP and gets into the World Series. Pierre is Pierre. The Dodgers finish third. That scenario ends Colletti's career.

Does Ned really want to risk all of that, just because he doesn't want to admit he made a mistake on Pierre? Hey, Ned, a "character guy" admits mistakes and corrects them.

2007-11-15 13:41:05
209.   derek22
your point is somewhat overshadowed by our homegrown teams in the 90's, 5 straight ROY.

also by the "bought" AL teams beating the NL to a pulp most years.

2007-11-15 13:41:06
210.   Sushirabbit

Maybe it is that there is so much pent-up-explaining of the stupidity of the Pierre signing and of the absurdity of buzzwords that people can't maintain their grip and just spew.

Nah, I'm too easy. I don't want Rowand but if there is someplan to jettison the dead horse, then it's another step from the edge of insanity.

2007-11-15 13:41:45
211.   Jon Weisman
205 - "For the Dodgers to trade away pieces of this new core--even for a Cabrera--guarantees that the team will continue to remain locked in the "good" 84.64 win slot, with little chance to move up to the "very good to great" 87.5 win slot. "

It actually doesn't gurarantee that at all, because there are way too many other factors at play, but I'm sympathetic to your point of view.

2007-11-15 13:42:16
212.   Humma Kavula
208 Scott Podsednik, left fielder for 120 games in 2005, hit zero home runs that year. He falls short on the playing time issue, but still: 120 games, left field, zero HR.

Maybe Scott and Juan could have a support group.

2007-11-15 13:42:29
213.   underdog
Now we can also debate about potential pitching trades. Apparently the Dodgers are one of the suitors for Erik Bedard, whom I'd like to add if it didn't once again involve (rumors of) your favorite young Dodger talent. Can't blame the Orioles for asking for the moon, either, just as with the Marlins, but hopefully the Dodgers would talk them down quite a bit before considering that move.
2007-11-15 13:42:48
214.   old dodger fan
All the talk about CF coupled with a slow day at work. Too much time on my hands.

Anyway, BR says that JP created 84 runs this year in 729 PA's. Torri Hunter created 95 runs in 650 PA's. If Hunter had the same number of PA's as JP that projects to 106.5 runs created or 22.5 more than JP.

How much money should you spend to create 22 runs? How many wins would this be? This ignores defense of course.

2007-11-15 13:43:09
215.   Jon Weisman
People have to get past the idea that this set of prospects is the same as that set of prospects.

("That" can mean whatever you want it to mean, except for "this.")

2007-11-15 13:43:50
216.   blue22
206 - 11 days?!? Wow. Any reasoning behind not inducing up until this point? Our doctor had my wife induced not more than 3 days past our due date.
2007-11-15 13:44:00
217.   derek22
i already touched on that.... 78
if we kept our current outfield, or even if we signed jones, and pierre stayed in the lineup, the move to left is not offense related.
2007-11-15 13:44:35
218.   fanerman
208 If Slappy has to play, it would be painfully fun to watch him in LF. He'd be amazingly, horrifically bad. It'd be like watching Bonds, circa 2004, (or whatever year was his best year) chase history, except on complete opposite side of the spectrum.
2007-11-15 13:44:35
219.   underdog
206 Holy cow, Humma! Fingers crossed Baby Kavula comes soon n' easy.
2007-11-15 13:44:40
220.   derek22
the white sox did the same thing with podsednik
2007-11-15 13:45:10
221.   Greg Brock
208 One of my favorite mental images is of Colletti running around doing high fives after signing this fellow to a 44 million dollar contract. Grins and champagne.

While everybody else mocked it.

2007-11-15 13:45:42
222.   Jon Weisman
Dodgers look to add Taiwan leg to China trip:

It's going to be a fun Model U.N. this year!

2007-11-15 13:46:01
223.   Humma Kavula
216 The reason she hasn't induced is that the baby seems healthy with a strong heartbeat and there is plenty of amniotic fluid. I think if any of those things weren't true, she'd have been induced already.

I am guessing -- though I have no real evidence for this -- that the doctor will induce tomorrow.

The anticipation is killing me.

2007-11-15 13:46:57
224.   Greg Brock
220 And they had the best pitching staff the American League has seen in twenty years. A total anomaly.

Podsednik had as much to do with winning that championship as I did.

2007-11-15 13:47:16
225.   Sushirabbit
2007-11-15 13:47:28
226.   D4P
One of my favorite mental images is of Colletti running around doing high fives after signing this fellow to a 44 million dollar contract

I like to think he gave Sabean an "In your face!" gesture.

2007-11-15 13:47:30
227.   Humma Kavula
208 That's the "30% Chance that he'll be Hall of Famer Juan Pierre" outlook.

That's the spirit!

2007-11-15 13:47:59
228.   CajunDodger
Redirect off of Pierre...please

Let's talk about, well, anything else.

2007-11-15 13:49:30
229.   derek22
yes that walk off homer...haha which is funny because of this discussion, had nothing to do with their winning....

and his SB's had nothing to do with it either i suppose?

2007-11-15 13:50:00
230.   blue22
223 - That's great to hear. I was somewhat surprised when our doctor recommended inducing so soon. She said there weren't any real negative implications to inducing labor. Just moves things along quicker. Of course, I'm sure there are differing opinions on the subject. Best of luck to you both in the next couple of days!
2007-11-15 13:50:08
231.   underdog
223 As long as your neighbors weren't Ruth Gordon and Sydney Blackmer and didn't give your wife special shakes, and no one says, "He has his father's eyes" in a demonic way, she'll be fine!
2007-11-15 13:50:42
232.   dzzrtRatt
212 Pierre is tolerable to me as a part-time player. A regular OF of Kemp-(Jones/Hunter/Rowand)-Ethier, with Pierre starting in CF about 30 games and in LF about 15 games, and getting into maybe 75 more games doing some pinchrunning, some situational PH bunting or slap hitting, and some late inning LF defense, seems acceptable. It's a big waste of money but what can you do? Juan Pierre is not a starting major league outfielder, except maybe for a team like the Reds, playing in a small park with lots of power in the lineup.
2007-11-15 13:52:28
233.   ToyCannon
67 players have hit less then 5 home runs and walked at least 75 times.

It isn't easy but I would say it is a myth that powerless hitters can't work a count. Regfairfield used Butler as an example but there are plenty more where he came from.

2007-11-15 13:52:35
234.   KG16
167 - I just find it interesting that he scored as much as he did without hitting home runs. It probably says more about the guys hitting behind him.
2007-11-15 13:52:37
235.   dzzrtRatt
228 and with that, I dummy up on the lil' guy.
2007-11-15 13:53:21
236.   ToyCannon
And that is only from 1962.
2007-11-15 13:53:36
237.   derek22
and to comment on what was said not looking at pierre seperate from the rest of the team.....on a team where 20 is the highest hr total, and the team is second to last in HR, you wanna blame a leadoff-type centerfielder for not hitting any?
2007-11-15 13:53:54
238.   Greg Brock
229 One at-bat merits an entire season? They would have lost everything without that? Wow.

And I wouldn't be saying "ha ha ha" to anybody if I were arguing your position. If we go down that road, it will not end well for you.

2007-11-15 13:55:14
239.   wronghanded
233 I like to refer to them as foul ball specialists. Certain slap hitters are pesky and wear a pitcher down by continually slapping strikes out of play until the pitcher eventually loses the strike zone.
2007-11-15 13:55:32
240.   bhsportsguy
221 As Charlie Brown once said 'Don't you know sarcasm when you hear it?"

I will again repeat for the thousandth time that Colletti has never waivered on his opinion on what Juan Pierre's strengths and weaknesses are as a ballplayer. He may have used words that I might not have chosen to describe them but I don't think there was ever any "talking up" Juan Pierre.

He has also explained why he signed him due to the lack of experience on the club in the outfield.

Now if these potential moves represent a change of thought on Juan Pierre, we shall see but I hope folks periodically remember Jon's piece on Hot Stove rumours.

2007-11-15 13:55:33
241.   uke
Anyone heard that Dan Haren could be trade bait? Likely trade steam...
2007-11-15 13:56:03
242.   old dodger fan
232 If he's not very good why play him at all beyond a sac bunt or pinch runner or late in the game sub when the game's been decided? If you give him 250 PA's just because he has a big contract that is 250 PA's that a better player doesn't get. Maybe it only costs you 2 or 3 games a season but that's way too many (unless you're in 4th place).
2007-11-15 13:56:55
243.   derek22
i was laughing at the irony of a powerless hitter saving their season with a home-run...and yes there season would have been lost....i believe that was a walk-off in an elimination game...not positive though
2007-11-15 13:58:54
244.   derek22
and was that an online threat?
If we go down that road, it will not end well for you.
sounds like some heavy star-wars stuff
2007-11-15 13:59:04
245.   bhsportsguy
I know Jon has not raised the HSC flag in regards to Juan Pierre (especially in a thread that is dealing with trading kids) but it does seem inevitable that it comes down to that player (not due to his doing) and how his roster space is like a pebble dropped in pond creating ripples going further and further out.
2007-11-15 13:59:56
246.   Eric Stephen
In all of MLB in 2007, the #2 spot in the batting order scored 3,132 runs, an average of 104.4 per team.

Pierre, who played in every game, who played in roughly 1,416 of a possible 1,450 innings (97.7%), scored a total of 96 runs.

Scoring 96 runs does not make JP a "run producer".

2007-11-15 13:59:59
247.   Greg Brock
243 But that's the point. Had he not been an 86 OPS+ player, they likely would not have been in any such position. He hurt the team that year.

This is the part where we agree to disagree.

2007-11-15 14:00:12
248.   Jon Weisman
If one is not willing to factor in the fact that almost any major league outfielder would do more with Pierre's 729 plate appearances than Pierre did, even factoring in Pierre's speed, then there's no point in discussing him.

With 729 plate appearances, 275 total bases (164 singles, 24 doubles, 8 triples, 33 walks, 6 HBP) plus 64 stolen bases, minus 15 caught stealing, minus 10 GIDP, is simply feeble. Almost any MLB outfielder - and certainly Ethier and Kemp - given those opportunities, would have crushed those numbers.

Let's move on.

2007-11-15 14:00:13
249.   jasonungar07
223 yeah for the next kid when the doctor says the due date I am covering my ears. I am on day 7 of being late.

(Gotta use a few Bill Jacks quotes from JFC...Ned to us on the Pierre move to LF):

Listen to me. Listen to me! LISTEN TO ME!! Do not confuse … my admitting a mistake, like a gentleman, with a check made out to you to subsequently go berserk.

2007-11-15 14:00:33
250.   regfairfield
I'm all for some J.R. House talk. I need to find a "why won't someone give him a chance" guy now that Jack Cust actually has a job.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-11-15 14:00:59
251.   derek22
and how is nobody throwing a fit about spending 7 mil on loaiza? are you telling me that loaiza is 1/3 as important to winning as a-rod?

id say maybe 1/100th

2007-11-15 14:01:13
252.   Ken Arneson
223 I hear you. My second child was 7 days late. That was the longest week of my life. The wait, for me, was excruciating.

My wife, however, says she doesn't mind if the baby stays in there an extra week or two. They're a lot less work to care for inside the womb than out.

Anyway, your baby should be out of there within three days, tops. Most doctors don't like to let pregnancies extend more than 14 days past the due dat. Good luck to the Kavula family.

2007-11-15 14:01:22
253.   derek22
and i suppose it would be 1/4 of a-rod.
2007-11-15 14:02:00
254.   jasonungar07
237 I think it's fair to look at your team from a cumlative perspective and then come to the conclusion that Juan Pierre is not the guy to add to it.
2007-11-15 14:02:42
255.   regfairfield
Seriously, .345/.392/.521 at catcher warrants a whopping nine at bats in the season when your catcher is Brad Ausmus?
2007-11-15 14:02:59
256.   derek22
246 what percentage of the teams runs were scored by their 2 spot in the order? i bet pierres is higher
2007-11-15 14:03:56
257.   StolenMonkey86
How much should we expect Kemp to develop in terms of power and patience? The Hardball Times' PrOPS had pegged him at .261/.297/.430, as opposed to his actual line of .342/.373/.521. The difference there is .081/.076/.091, which looks like it could have spelled a lot of lucky singles, particularly with a BABIP of .411 (!), given he only had a 17.5% LD rate for 2007.
2007-11-15 14:04:04
258.   Marty
The Spawn must be having a good time in there.
2007-11-15 14:04:26
259.   El Lay Dave
243 2005 White Sox went 11-1 in the playoffs, never coming close to facing an elimination game. They did this on a ridiculously other-wordly pitching performance from the whole staff, which lasted all season. Really, the got career or near-career years from almost everyone.
2007-11-15 14:05:09
260.   xaphor
223 The little one is waiting to see what direction Colletti takes this off-season. Prudent move I would say.
2007-11-15 14:05:12
261.   old dodger fan
223 Best wishes tomorrow.

Keep us posted.

2007-11-15 14:05:43
262.   underdog
I think quite a few people here have thrown fits about Loiaza. But many of us also felt like he was worth a shot in a weak class of available starting pitchers, and that if he sucks come Spring he'll be gone. Plus he only pitches every 5th day (at most), as opposed to stinking every day. But yes, very few people here are excited about Loiaza, at least we can say that much...
2007-11-15 14:06:53
263.   jasonungar07
248 That was rad.
2007-11-15 14:07:16
264.   CajunDodger

Using that metric, Vlad Guerrero is only half as valuable as ARod. Not sure that salary proportions=value when comparing players.

Does that mean that Derek Lowe and Carl Pavano have equal value?

2007-11-15 14:07:55
265.   Greg Brock
262 The True Blue LA crowd is cool with Loaiza.
2007-11-15 14:08:49
266.   derek22
ah, im new here, and havent seen anything negative towards him....i would venture that mcdonald or kershaw could top his numbers but he isnt a bad option for some starts out of the pen, although very overpaied for such work
2007-11-15 14:09:16
267.   Greg Brock
Bonds indicted on perjury and obstruction of justice charges.
2007-11-15 14:09:25
268.   fiddlestick
Don't know if anyone's chimed in with a similar line of thinking, but for all those fretting about what Coletti will trade for Cabrera:

Why are we so quick to assume that Coletti will not tend to undervalue Cabrera's bad body, alleged attitude problems in the past, alleged poor work ethic in the same way he wants guys who lead, play the right way etc.

We seem to be very quick to assume he'll overpay bad players with perceived intangible attributes, but what's to say that's not going to keep him from giving up too much for Cabrera for the same reasons?

2007-11-15 14:09:45
269.   blue22
257 - Honestly, that's a concern I have with Kemp. I think he could hit for more power than he did last year, off-setting whatever blow his slg% would take due to leveling off of his BABIP numbers. But I'm worried about him being able to sustain a .340 or above OBP. Not that Alfonso Soriano is a bad player, but I think that's who Kemp might turn out to be.

Would a .290/.330/.480 line be considered a disappointment for Kemp in his 2nd year in the bigs?

2007-11-15 14:10:02
270.   thinkblue0

You need to take into account the HUGE amount of AB's he had.

I find it weird that people are saying Ned won't trade Pierre because it would "admit a mistake". But, isn't the fact that we're even considering moving him to LF already admitting the mistake?

The only way a signing makes ANY sense is if the player is markedly superior to our in house options. Let's say that the odd man out would be Eithier. At least with an Andruw Jones signing, an argument could made (of course assuming he bounces back to form) that the money was well spent because now we have a 40 HR guy in the lineup rather than Eithier.

But in the case of Rowand, it just doesn't make any sense. I don't dislike Rowand by any means, but why oh why would you sign him, which probably pushes out Eithier who would probably put up similar numbers for a fraction of the cost?

I know these are all rumors, and I'm trying not to get caught up in them. But, it's just so frustrating to even read that we're thinking about giving Rowand a shot. If the rumors are true, wouldn't you think there would be someone in the front office that would say "umm...guys? Are you sure this is a good idea?"

While I'll try to take all rumors with a grain of salt, the way this team has been run in the past couple years is absolutely baffling.

maybe we could get Bob to GM for us ;)

2007-11-15 14:10:36
271.   CajunDodger
What site?
2007-11-15 14:11:16
272.   derek22
that was posted tongue in cheek.
simply to stress another stupid move by flanders.
2007-11-15 14:12:02
273.   CajunDodger
Very interesting slant...
2007-11-15 14:12:26
274.   El Lay Dave
256 And you would lose that bet.

2nd spot runs / total runs / pct
MLB 2007: 3132 / 23322 / 13.43
JP/LA 2007: 96 / 735 / 13.06

2007-11-15 14:12:47
275.   paranoidandroid
Sorry for the long post, I have one shot to say something and then have to step away.

I would welcome Miggy as a free agent, I'm not as inclined to trade the farm for him. I was all for throwing the money at ARod.

I think all of LA would rue the day Matt Kemp plays for another team. He is our ARod in training, at least he has the potential to be a five tool player who can put up monster numbers. He is the best prospect I've seen since Raul Mondesi.

At this point, other than signing Andruw Jones or Hunter, I would be inclined to stand pat on position players who will start. I think Abreu could fill out the infield if Kent retires (I don't see him retiring though) and LaRoche gets a shot at third if Nomar can't produce or vice versa. I don't see Rolen or Lowell manning third.

Eithier could be traded if we commit to Pierre which we've seemingly done regardless of what we grouse about here.

The big fish to catch would still be Johan Santana and he isn't on the trade block yet and I wouldn't trade for him unless we lock him up for a few years. If the Twins let him go FA, then he would be a cornerstone to build around and he would only cost money, not our Kemps and Kershaws.

I am VERY hesistant to trade Bills and or Kershaw because Lowe is a FA after 08 and we only have Penny locked up thru 09 (if we pick up the option). We'd have to get McDonald and/or Kershaw into the rotation with Bills and still have a need for arms after 09. Schmidt might come back and pitch, but we really don't know who he'll be, we just now how much we'll pay him.

I hope Ned and co. look beyond '08. The kids deserve a shot at some point and we need to go one direction or the other, we can't go both directions at once like we did with LuGo last year. I think from what happened this year, we should let the kids plug away starting in April. Troy Tulowitski didn't get off to a great start, but by sticking with him, Colorado found a gem. So did SD and their third baseman.

Kemp, Loney, and even LaRoche deserve a shot to join Martin on a Dodger team that can be quite good for a long period of time.

2007-11-15 14:13:16
276.   Marty
267 Was he in the hotel room with OJ?
2007-11-15 14:14:31
277.   derek22
274 thats the whole league....
i'm talking about compared to each team, because we are dealing with alternatives that we may have.
2007-11-15 14:15:55
278.   KG16
270 - of course, I understand the point about his PAs and ABs. Again, it's just a data point that I find kind of interesting.

To be honest, I'd have been happy last year, and this year with an outfield of Kemp/Repko/Ethier.

2007-11-15 14:16:33
279.   derek22
274 not only that..if pierre is so terrible, that number proves otherwise...he seems to be about average.
2007-11-15 14:16:45
280.   dzzrtRatt
268 So you're saying Cabrera's weak character might prevent Colletti from giving up a lot of value for him? And his snide attitude toward veteran players who can teach him nothing?

It's possible. However, his problems in that area go back a few years. His main character flaw now is his immoderate love of Boston Cream Pie.

2007-11-15 14:17:06
281.   CajunDodger
Loaiza seems to be a calculated gamble to me. Here is why I don't mind the move at all.

He doesn't give up a draft pick.

All that is lost is money.

Loaiza has the potential to be very good.

Hendrickson will earn roughly half of Loaiza's salary in arbitration, so the money is actually not too bad.

No kids lost in the transaction.

2007-11-15 14:17:19
282.   derek22

id have NO problem with him starting for us.

2007-11-15 14:17:37
283.   uke
2007-11-15 14:17:55
284.   Xeifrank
222. wow, this is becoming quite a trip. Why not also stop in South Korea and the Filippines. Seriously though, isn't spring training a time to evaluate players and make final roster decisions. It would seem like you are doing some of these fringe players a disservice by subjecting them to overseas travel and playing exhibition games against National Teams? Don't get me wrong, I am all for it, for selfish reasons, but I could see this being deterimental to player evaluations, not to mention the jet-lag and possible health (terrible smog in China) issues at play here. How many players will they be taking? Split squads? Will they leave a split squad at home in the US?

vr, Xei

2007-11-15 14:18:26
285.   Sam DC
I had someone else tell me they saw that Bonds thing on CNN's crawl.
2007-11-15 14:19:00
286.   El Lay Dave
277 That's not what you wrote though. The data is publically available - have at it.
2007-11-15 14:19:25
287.   paranoidandroid
282 Yeah, me too. Assuming we play our home games at Cedar Sinai.
2007-11-15 14:19:38
288.   thinkblue0

I would have too. There's no use in us ripping Pierre since we're stuck with him but I just can't understand the logic behind the move.

You know when some of your friends will do something so stupid that you're more aghast at their rationale (or lack) than the actual act?

That's how I feel about Colletti.

2007-11-15 14:20:48
289.   jystakes
If Colleti is willing to trade (let's say) Billingsley or Kemp, along with Laroche and Kershaw for Cabrera, then shouldn't he also be seeing who ELSE he could get for that package? If we're giving up three young inexpensive studs, couldn't WE create a line of GMS asking to trade with us? For that package, couldn't we pretty much get anyone in baseball? Sizemore, Pujols, Howard, Fielder, etc?
2007-11-15 14:20:50
290.   Gen3Blue
283 Apparently has it right--even Chris Matthews interupted with that bulletin.
2007-11-15 14:21:07
291.   Marty
So I've now seen Hat Guy and heard ESPN radio say Arod is "crawling" back to the Yankees.
2007-11-15 14:22:21
292.   El Lay Dave
279 You can't conclude that w/out knowing the variance, which requires calculating that value for every team, which is not something I have time for right now. But he looks to be about 3 runs/season below average, which would be an odd thing for a "run producer".
2007-11-15 14:23:12
293.   xaphor
284 The Dodgers' usual spring training evaluations? I doubt they will be missed.
2007-11-15 14:24:10
294.   Gen3Blue
O.J. and Barry act like they don't care about these "obviosly ridiculous" allegations. We are about to see if they both get away with it.(I'm not equating the two crimes, just the "owning it".
2007-11-15 14:24:40
295.   Xeifrank
According to Zips projections, Loaiza is right around a league average pitcher. One year at 7-8mil is not really all that bad.
vr, Xei
2007-11-15 14:24:58
296.   regfairfield
289 I'd rather have Miguel than Howard and probably Fielder.
2007-11-15 14:25:26
297.   fiddlestick
280-- I don't care what "off the field" vice Coletti pins on Cabrera as long as it keeps his price reasonable.

Kinda funny that very similar things were said about Cabrera a couple years back as are being inferred about Kemp right now. Just because a guy has a bit of an attitude doesn't mean they won't out grow it. Florida's probably pretty happy they didn't deal their "attitude problem" for pennies on the dollar back then.

2007-11-15 14:27:29
298.   Xeifrank
FAQ Entry #1: Juan Pierre is not average.

vr, Xei

2007-11-15 14:29:01
299.   Fallout
Does this mean that B*nds' career is over?

Could the Dodgers look to trade for another third baseman like Adrian Beltre?

2007-11-15 14:29:10
300.   cloblue64
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-11-15 14:32:25
301.   jystakes
296 But given MCAB's contract situation, isn't there any other player out there more attractive? With this package, you could arguably get anyone.
2007-11-15 14:32:42
302.   Jon Weisman
PMR likes Werth and Victorino, doesn't like Ethier.

2007-11-15 14:34:37
303.   fanerman
302 Neither Kemp nor Ethier fare well on that one.
2007-11-15 14:37:23
304.   blue22
Ethier / Victorino / Kemp.

That's the OF I wish we had.

2007-11-15 14:38:00
305.   gvette
It's easy to fall in love with your minor league prospects;

on the other hand, think what the Dodgers could have gotten for Edwin Jackson and Greg Miller in '03 and '04. Hanrahan never did crack the starting rotation either.

2007-11-15 14:38:22
306.   regfairfield
301 I think anyone better you could get would be deemed off limits, simply by the negative press it would generate. I don't know if you could trade Pujols or Grady without putting your job in huge jeopardy.
2007-11-15 14:39:47
307.   regfairfield
302 PMR lost a lot of credibility in my mind when it had Braun as only the second worst third baseman.

But it supports my love of Jayson Werth, so I'll allow it :)

2007-11-15 14:40:26
308.   underdog
Lance Williams on the Bonds indictment:
2007-11-15 14:40:45
309.   blue22
305 - I would say that Kershaw and LaRoche are the only beloved minor league prospects (and there's even a healthy dose of reality applied to those two). Kemp, Loney, Billingsley, et al are certified big leaguers at this point.
2007-11-15 14:42:17
310.   underdog
306 Trade Grady? Didn't he resign? ;-)
2007-11-15 14:43:09
311.   Bob Timmermann
I might trying reading the Bonds indictment once I get home and watch a few episodes of "Law and Order" to study up.
2007-11-15 14:43:30
312.   ToyCannon
Defensive metrics drive me crazy. On one hand Ethier is the 2nd best RF in baseball, on the other hand, he's not in the top 20.

Come on people, this is ridiculous in 2007.

2007-11-15 14:45:05
313.   kinbote
Hey DP4--Are you prepartying yet for the Ducks' game? I'm a little scared that the pundits seem to think we need to make some some kind of statement tonight. I've actually heard the term "style points" used. [Shudder.] To me, the win's the thing. Right or wrong, all the other stuff will take care of itself.
2007-11-15 14:47:30
314.   ToyCannon
The Truth shall set you free.
2007-11-15 14:49:02
315.   fanerman
269 For reference, this season, Adrian Beltre hit: .276/.319/.482.

Kemp seemed to have hit lots of really hard ground balls (with line-drive characteristics) last season, which, coupled with his Bison Speed™, helped lead to his gaudy BABIP numbers. Perhaps this is a repeatable skill and he'll have fairly high BABIP numbers for awhile. Though he's definitely due to regress with BABIP. Anyway, if he can improve his slugging and perhaps his patience, maybe he can offset some of the regression.

2007-11-15 14:49:18
316.   Bob Timmermann
More than one potential Pac-10 champion has seen its season run aground on the rocky reef that is Tucson.
2007-11-15 14:51:39
317.   kinbote
316 I'm just hoping they are focused on winning the game, not trying to impress anybody. There are a lot of reasons for pressing (BCS concerns, Heisman hype). None of that should matter at all.
2007-11-15 14:52:06
318.   Jacob L
313 As a Cal guy with memories of 04, let me tell you, when the pundits tell you need style points, its a self fulfilling prophecy. They're looking for reasons to vote you down.

Just win the Pac 10 and the worst that can happen is the Rose Bowl.

2007-11-15 14:52:35
319.   Hythloday
316 Is that a Barbara Kingsolver reference on DT?
2007-11-15 14:53:22
320.   Bob Timmermann
No, I just like saying "rocky reef."

I think Jacob has set off the Eric Enders alarm.

2007-11-15 14:53:31
321.   fiddlestick
If only Johnny Cochrane were still around. I'd love to see him have Barry try to cram his dome into his Pirates hat from 1990. "If it fits, you must acquit!"
2007-11-15 14:56:22
322.   Jacob L
320 In that case, "Hi, Eric!"

As a Cal fan in 07, its my role to go slump in the corner.

2007-11-15 14:57:00
323.   Hythloday
321 - Or he could always try the Chewbacca defense.
2007-11-15 14:58:39
324.   Bob Timmermann
Cal lost to (unnamed university in Southern California)

(Unnamed university in Southern California) lost to Notre Dame.

I'm slumping more.

Cal at least gets a trip to El Paso!

2007-11-15 15:01:07
325.   jasonungar07
323 lol
2007-11-15 15:01:09
326.   LogikReader
Cal also lost to (unamed university in Westwood)

Outside of (unnamed university in Palo Alto), SC has, remarkably, had only the one loss to... you guessed it, Oregon!

2007-11-15 15:02:10
327.   LogikReader
I really want to see Oregon in that BCS title game. The sportswriters will do anything to keep them away... GO DUCKS!!!
2007-11-15 15:02:21
328.   KG16
ok, I may be imagining things (my brain has been a bit on the fritz the last couple of days) but I swear, I just saw a drug commercial that mentioned a side effect being an urge to gamble.
2007-11-15 15:02:35
329.   bearlurker
Bonds got indicted this afternoon.
2007-11-15 15:02:53
330.   D4P
Hey DP4--Are you prepartying yet for the Ducks' game?

I am not prepartying, nor will I be partying or postpartying. I'll probably watch the first half and then go to bed.

2007-11-15 15:04:42
331.   kinbote
330 Fair enough. Go ducks.
2007-11-15 15:05:26
332.   jasonungar07
Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major leauge ballplayer on steroids, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.
2007-11-15 15:05:50
333.   fiddlestick
323-- Now why would Barry Bonds want to play with a 6 foot motorcycle riding redneck. That does not make sense.
2007-11-15 15:11:36
334.   silverwidow
Miguel Cabrera vs. Kim Ng in arbitration

Will this happen?

2007-11-15 15:12:04
335.   Bumsrap
The Marlins don't want Miggy's salary in their payroll meaning they need to trade him as much as the Dodgers and Angels want to trade for him. Because Miggy plays third I guess LaRoche is going to be part of that trade. My offer would be for the Marlins to take four of the following:


2007-11-15 15:12:33
336.   Greg Brock
Well, assuming Greg Anderson didn't flip, it would appear that he spent over a year and a half in prison for nothing.

He better have been paid handsomely. I assume he was.

2007-11-15 15:13:43
337.   fanerman
334 Test your might. FIGHT!
2007-11-15 15:14:06
338.   Jon Weisman
335 - Well, I guess you won't be getting Cabrera then :)
2007-11-15 15:14:39
339.   D4P
Was he in White Collar Resort Prison, or FPMITA Prison?
2007-11-15 15:15:42
340.   KG16
Not that this is surprising, but in the indictment, page 3, lines 2-4 (paragraph 9):

During the criminal investigation, evidence was obtained including positive tests for the presence of anabolic steroids and other performance enhancing drugs for Bonds and other professional athletes.

2007-11-15 15:16:04
341.   regfairfield
335 And then they offer you Amezega and Kevin Gregg for Matt Kemp.
2007-11-15 15:16:09
342.   Bumsrap
338 - Exactly
2007-11-15 15:17:23
343.   Bumsrap
341 - With the same result
2007-11-15 15:18:11
344.   Greg Brock
339 He's in a Federal PMITA prison in Dublin, California. But I doubt he's chillin' with the general population.
2007-11-15 15:19:12
345.   Bumsrap
I am a Loney fan and Miggy will soon be a first baseman. I prefer Loney on first.
2007-11-15 15:22:03
346.   D4P
There's a joke in there involving role reversals and injecting cream and/or clear, but I'm not going there. I'm not even bringing it up.
2007-11-15 15:22:13
347.   regfairfield
Then I suppose this will never get anywhere since you obviously don't value Cabrera all that highly.
2007-11-15 15:22:50
348.   driches
335 might not be realistic given the Marlins' asking price, but can we agree that its objectively fair?
2007-11-15 15:23:09
349.   Hythloday
344 - Actually that was an article a while back in some San Fran rag interviewing the guy that was sharing the cell with Anderson. It may have been one of Bill Simmons links. I think he was in general population. The highlight of the interview was this guy saying that Barry was lactating at one point.
2007-11-15 15:26:00
350.   Hythloday
349 - Nix that; it was a spoof.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-11-15 15:26:22
351.   njr
Barry Bonds indicted on perjury and Obstruction of Justice charges. Front page of ESPN.
2007-11-15 15:26:52
352.   KG16
I just scanned through the indictment. Pretty standard stuff for perjury and obstruction of justice claims, they quote a lot of the grand jury testimony, mainly Bonds saying, "No, no, no" a lot to questions that most figured the answers should be "oh, yes, I guess so."
2007-11-15 15:27:00
353.   regfairfield
348 No, that's stupidly one sided for the Dodgers. You have one no doubt about it good talent in there with a bad back, two guys with promise but are coming off massive injuries four guys that are mediocre and easily replaceable, and two guys that make more than most of the Marlins team combined.
2007-11-15 15:27:18
354.   Greg Brock
349 Wow, he better have been paid a fortune.

I'm not going to prison for any of you people. I'd never be a party to cover-up shenanigans, nor would I give up my freedom for somebody else's transgressions.

Not for a penny under 5 million.

2007-11-15 15:27:19
355.   njr
Man. Not even close.
2007-11-15 15:33:05
356.   Jon Weisman
It takes 10 seconds to open up the thread and do a search to see if something has been mentioned here already. Just in case you want to save yourself the comment of shame :)
2007-11-15 15:41:55
357.   StolenMonkey86
356 - even easier with Google toolbar
2007-11-15 15:43:26
358.   Greg Brock
Greg Anderson released from prison.

Man, he flipped?

2007-11-15 15:48:29
359.   Daniel Zappala
202 look on the brightside guys....our free agent alternative was gary mathews...we actually out-smarted the angels for once on that deal.

This is a misconception I hear on DT from time to time. I challenge you to find any way in which you can compare the CF that Does Not Exist (DNE) and Gary Matthews Jr. (GMJ) and have the non-existent guy come out on top.

Here's a head start with their 2007 stats. Just for fun I included Andruw Jones (AJ) and Aaron Rowand (AR).

------ DNE -- GMJ --- AJ ---- AR

EQA - .248 - .256 -- .251 -- .294
RARP- 12.3 - 13.7 -- 13.0 -- 44.8
WARP3 3.4 -- 6.6 --- 6.4 --- 9.6

2007-11-15 15:51:21
360.   fiddlestick
Greg Anderson's counsel--- Scott Boras


2007-11-15 15:52:28
361.   Daniel Zappala
I was born 21 days late.
2007-11-15 15:53:25
362.   fanerman
361 What about your 13-18 children? Do you remember how early/late each and every one of them was born?
2007-11-15 15:53:26
363.   Gen3Blue
335 I appreciate your thinking, Bumsrap, but as the Marlins need to make this trade and, I don't really want to, I think the offer should be LaRoche and 1 or 2 of those you name. Your list is way more realistic than whats been floated around by Marlins reporters and fans. Your thoughts are practical, mine are I suppose romantic. I want to see LaRoche get a chance to play here. At least you offer them some of the older players that would help us to play our talent.
2007-11-15 15:58:16
364.   Lexinthedena
Speaking of Miggs Cabrera.....I think he is phenomenal....but I don't think there is anyone in the majors who I would give up Matt Kemp to aquire....he is too dynamic....Kemp and Bills should not be traded under any circumstances....

What about a package of LaRoche, Pierre, Meloan, and a so-so'er like Houlton for Tejada?...

2007-11-15 15:58:37
365.   Daniel Zappala
362 All born about 1 - 5 days late. You think any doctor would be able to get a woman to hold on longer with that many kids?
2007-11-15 16:00:39
366.   underdog
364 I'd keep LaRoche over Tejada, never mind giving up Meloan, too (and never mind a chance to get rid of Pierre)... Tejada may still have something left in the tank but seems pretty close to done to me. I wouldn't chance it and give up a young player with tons of upside for the same position.
2007-11-15 16:01:36
367.   trainwreck
We can get Bonds on the cheap now.

What kind of OBP do you think he can put up while in prison?

2007-11-15 16:02:10
368.   fiddlestick
Here's a worthless hypothetical-- who wouldn't you give up if the terms of any deal required taking Juan Pierre too?
2007-11-15 16:04:56
369.   Hythloday
367 Depends what kind of bases we're talking about here. As D4P alluded to earlier I think Bonds can get to 3rd base 100% of the time in prison.
2007-11-15 16:05:47
370.   jasonungar07
I was due June 2 1971 and was born on April 2 1971.
2007-11-15 16:05:51
371.   regfairfield
359 Dewan's +/-

Pierre: +5
Matthews: -26

I can say pretty confidently that Pierre had a better year.

2007-11-15 16:07:05
372.   regfairfield
363 Miguel Cabrera is a superstar. If you're going to trade a superstar, you need to at least get back someone who has the potential to become one. None of the guys listed have that potential.
2007-11-15 16:08:02
373.   Greg Brock
369 You fellas have a lot of growing up to do, I'll tell you that. Ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. Can you believe these characters? Way out of line. Way out of line. Have a good mind to go to the warden about this. You know what hurts the most is the... the lack of respect. You know? That's what hurts the most. Except for the... Except for the other thing. That hurts the most. But the lack of respect hurts the second most.
2007-11-15 16:08:38
374.   blue22
368 - And what, not acquire anyone in the deal (or for the sake of argument, a Scott Proctor middle reliever type)?

No one of any value. If management is willing to do a straight up salary dump and include a prospect as the "cost" of taking Pierre, then management would be willing to demote Pierre to 5th OFer (where he would be quite good). He's not making so much that his salary has any real effect on acquiring better players. It's his playing time that is the real monkeywrench. Demote him to 5th OFer, give playing time to the 4 other OFers that are better than him, and keep your accompanying trade chip from above.

2007-11-15 16:08:47
375.   KG16
368 - I'm confused, are you asking: from the Dodger's perspective, who would I not be willing to include in a deal that meant dealing Pierre? Or are you asking from the perspective of another team? If so, I need to know what team you're talking about.
2007-11-15 16:09:45
376.   KG16
373 - wow, that might be the funniest thing I've read on here in a long while.
2007-11-15 16:10:19
377.   Ghost of Carlos Perez
Regardless of what side of the Juan Pierre debate (run producer or cancer?) you are on, I think we can all agree that Pierre can never be accused of clogging up the bases. I think that attribute should make him attractive to the Reds.

How about Juan Pierre, Jeff Kent, and tons of money for Brandon Phillips?

2007-11-15 16:10:41
378.   Humma Kavula
Back from the doctor, and indeed, Bride of Kavula will be induced tomorrow morning at 8.

It's interesting to note that Spawn of Kavula will be born into a world in which Barry Bonds is under indictment.

2007-11-15 16:10:44
379.   fiddlestick
ESPN broke in to Breaking News about Bonds with Breaking News about A-Rod.

Someone call OJ and tell him to fire up the Bronco.

Bristol would explode.

2007-11-15 16:11:41
380.   KG16
377 - I'd even settle for Arroyo.
2007-11-15 16:12:50
381.   Greg Brock
376 All credit to Norm MacDonald.

With every genius business idea, there's gotta be a first. Like, like the guy who first thought of delivering pizza to people's houses. Or, uh, the guy who invented crack.

2007-11-15 16:13:55
382.   Daniel Zappala
371 That's a fielding metric, yes? I'm skeptical that it's trustworthy enough to conclude Pierre is better based on that alone. Do other fielding metrics agree? Any reason to believe Dewan's over others?
2007-11-15 16:14:22
383.   KG16
381 - what about the guy who came up with delivering crack to people's houses?

As for the guy who thought up delivering pizza, he basically paid my college tuition. So, I kind of like him.

2007-11-15 16:16:18
384.   regfairfield
382 Methodology wise, his is the best. From Fielding

A player gets credit (a "plus" number) if he makes a play that at least one other player at his position missed during the season, and he loses credit (a "minus" number) if he misses a play that at least one player made. The size of the credit is directly related to how often players make the play. Each play is looked at individually, and a score is given for each play. Sum up all the plays for each player at his position and you get his total plus/minus for the season. A total plus/minus score near zero means the player is average. A score above zero is above average and a negative score is below average. Adam Everett turned in the highest score we've had in four years of using the system with a +43 at shortstop in 2006. That means he made 43 more plays than the average MLB shortstop would make.

And most metrics like zone rating or RZR have Pierre near the middle and Matthews near the bottom

2007-11-15 16:17:00
385.   Bluebleeder87

is it really news? I mean that stuffs been floating around for a while now.

2007-11-15 16:17:17
386.   blue22
382 - The PMR that Jon posted earlier had them nearly even, in the mid-tier of CFers.

2007-11-15 16:23:19
387.   Brent Knapp
I'm reading more and more about this potential trip to China which makes me think it's actually happening. I just bought tickets to fly to Miami on March 14 to see Dodgertown for the last time, and now this. I guess I should have had the foresight to buy a flight to China. The last spring training ever in Vero Beach and they are leaving early for China? What a ridiculously terrible organization.
2007-11-15 16:23:29
388.   Daniel Zappala
384 Enough to make up for the fact that, offensively, GMJ in his worst year is as good as DNE in his best year? While GMJ has potential to be quite good offensively for a CFer? And proclaim DNE an easy win over GMJ?
2007-11-15 16:25:34
389.   silverwidow
A-Rod has officially re-signed for 10/$275M
2007-11-15 16:28:00
390.   Greg Brock
So, Alex Rodriguez gets to stay with the team he wanted to stay with, and gets the biggest contract in professional sports history (again).

Stupid A-Rod. In your face, Boras!*

*Enjoy your commission, Scott.

2007-11-15 16:28:55
391.   regfairfield
388 Matthews was pretty close to his usual year once you take into account park factors. 2006 was an abberation.

Seeing how bad Matthews is defensively, yes, it's an easy win. 31 plays in the outfield is a huge difference.

2007-11-15 16:29:15
392.   regfairfield
389 Well, it was a nice fantasy.
2007-11-15 16:30:28
393.   Louis in SF

That is the question that I have, would any team take Pierre plus some serious money and a lower level prospect for a mid-level prospect?

I don't see it happening. My ideal solution is to sign Andru Jones for the a 1 year contract with incentives, not give up any of the youngsters and really see what you have.

While I think most fans ultimately back a winner, there does seem to be something special about these youngsters and a close comparison to the youngsters of the 70's and early 80's.

2007-11-15 16:30:35
394.   underdog
I don't think I'd want to buy stock in either DNEx or GMJr; both are way overvalued and destined to go down in price every day until KDOm COME.
2007-11-15 16:30:47
395.   Jon Weisman
387 - I think it's a real shame. I find the Dodgers' participation this year, as opposed to any other year, to be particularly insensitive to its fans.
2007-11-15 16:30:58
396.   wronghanded
So does this mean that the ARONs are officially reduced to the Ns.
2007-11-15 16:31:59
397.   Jon Weisman
Never let it be said that I could ever predict what Alex Rodriguez would do.
2007-11-15 16:32:00
398.   underdog
393 "Juan Pierre, the highest paid pinch-runner in baseball history." Has a nice ring to it.

Oops, sorry, forgot that he DNEx.

2007-11-15 16:32:05
399.   Marty
Interesting day, ARod goes back to the Yankees and Bonds indicted.
2007-11-15 16:35:12
400.   Greg Brock
399 And the last episode of The Office for a very long time.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-11-15 16:35:38
401.   regfairfield
393 If I were another GM, I would take Pierre and 27.5 million for nothing of value.
2007-11-15 16:36:08
402.   Daniel Zappala
391 Huh. I guess I focused so much on DNE's horrid offense, and grumblings about his poor defense and arm, that I figured there was no way he could be better than any CFer.
2007-11-15 16:36:39
403.   wronghanded
400 The other 2 pieces of news I can live with but you're seriously about to make me cry.
2007-11-15 16:36:43
404.   fanerman
Pierre would make a fine 4th OF/pinch-runner.
2007-11-15 16:36:49
405.   underdog
400 Those three items in order of how much they make me cry:


then #2 doesn't at all.

2007-11-15 16:37:58
406.   still bevens
395 I was 100% on board with going to Florida this year, along with many friends of mine and now I dont think Im going to go. Even if they do make a token showing at Vero Im not sure I want to deal with the small window of opportunity and the large number of people looking to squeeze it in.
2007-11-15 16:38:43
407.   Kevin Lewis
Should we call a meeting for ARONS?
2007-11-15 16:39:02
408.   Brent Knapp
395 Wouldn't the Dodgers expect huge attendance this last spring in Vero Beach? China will always be there. It seems to me that the Dodgers are missing the most important executive. The "No" man. Someone to say "no" when they consider these awful ideas.
2007-11-15 16:39:03
409.   Daniel Zappala
391 If I read the numbers correctly, it's not so much that DNE has great defense, as that GMJ's is so bad. Still says nothing redeeming about DNE.
2007-11-15 16:40:03
410.   CajunDodger
I am talking about the "clutch factor" being true/false and seem to remember someone out there saying that there was a study that refutes players being "clutch". Does anyone know where I can reinforce/debunk the "clutch factor"?
2007-11-15 16:40:29
411.   silverwidow
Pujols > A-Rod

Strangely enough, I can't picture Albert getting a contract that big.

2007-11-15 16:41:04
412.   underdog
387/395 - might actually be worth a letter or email of concern to Frank McPopup, er, McCourt, himself...
2007-11-15 16:43:14
413.   wronghanded
411 Amen, I've heard repeatedly that A-Rod is the "best in the game" and then I take a look at Mr. Pujol's career OPS and laugh.
2007-11-15 16:45:05
414.   Greg Brock
410 Sheehan's article is brief, and not particularly great, but it links to the actual work:

2007-11-15 16:45:29
415.   Xeifrank
395. Well, all but one of it's fans. :)

What do you think the motivation for the trip to China is?

A) PR/Marketing ploy for MLB
B) Prelude to Dodgers setting up some kind of baseball camp/operations in China
C) Olympics related
D) Chance to do some sightseeing, shopping and taste some great food.

vr, Xei

2007-11-15 16:47:35
416.   Greg Brock
415 1.3 billion people could buy a lot of jerseys. Ask the NBA.
2007-11-15 16:48:46
417.   Brent Knapp
412 I'm going to send them a letter for sure, but I wish I knew a correspondence address that is better than the 'general' one at elysian park. I wonder if we started a letter writing campaign and got all of DT involved it might make a difference. Not just with this issue, but with the many problems we have with management that DTers largely agree on.
2007-11-15 16:49:36
418.   StolenMonkey86
I'm jumping in a bit late here, but I was born late too. I forget when my due date was supposed to be, but my parents went to the hospital twice on February 27. They went to see Back to the Future on February 28, hoping I'd be interested in the film. No such luck as I was born on March 3.
2007-11-15 16:50:06
419.   StolenMonkey86
And I wasn't named until March 6. Go figure.
2007-11-15 16:51:00
420.   fanerman
419 Did your parents call you "Spawn" for your first couple days?
2007-11-15 16:51:11
421.   Xeifrank
410. Tango Tiger's (The Book) has these two passages.

"Expect a player's performance in an upcoming clutch at-bat to be much more like his overall performance than his past clutch performances."
"For all practical purposes, a player can be expected to hit equally well in clutch as he would be expected to do in an ordinary situation."

There are all kinds of tables supporting these claims.

vr, Xei

2007-11-15 16:53:25
422.   CajunDodger
2007-11-15 16:53:43
423.   blue22
Juan Pierre managed to even out-VORP Gary Matthews Jr this year, 16.2 to 15.8.

I'm also really kind of shocked that Pierre put up a 16. I was looking for him way down in the negative ranges.

2007-11-15 16:54:30
424.   StolenMonkey86
423 - I think you need to get to Julio Lugo territory to do that
2007-11-15 16:56:16
425.   bhsportsguy
415 It's probably some combination but I am sure their motivation is no different than the Padres, Red Sox or Athletics, who are also going to Asia to either play exhibition games or to open up the regular season.
2007-11-15 16:56:21
426.   Xeifrank
416. Funny thing was. I spent a fair amount of time (2+ weeks) in Beijing and a few weeks in and around a few other big cities. I searched like crazy for NBA uniforms or any sports related merchandise. What I really was looking for were Chinese Basketball League jerseys/t-shirts. I couldn't find anything. Not one NBA item, not one China league related item. The closest I saw was stuff like Nike or Fila sweatsuits and all the latest tennis shoes. Maybe it's different in Hong Kong and Shangai? But I don't see the Chinese buying these items. I brought a few Lakers shirts over there. People like them, and even knew alot about the NBA and kept asking me who I thought the best player in the NBA was, or who was going to win the NBA title. Besides Yao the two players that seemed the most popular were TMAC and Lebron... then probably Kobe. of course they wanted to know who I thought the best Kung-Fu actor was. I told em to check in to Screen Jam for that conversation. vr, Xei
2007-11-15 16:57:20
427.   blue22
424 - Poor Nick Punto (well, not "poor" since homeboy made $1.8M last year, $2.1M next). He brought up the rear at a cool -27.1 VORP. He was the only one in the negative 20s.
2007-11-15 16:59:25
428.   Sam DC
370 Wow!
2007-11-15 17:00:05
429.   fanerman
423 He only needed 150 more at-bats to do it.
2007-11-15 17:02:14
430.   StolenMonkey86
420 - I don't think they'll ever tell me if they did.
2007-11-15 17:02:47
431.   Jon Weisman
This date in baseball:

November 15, 2004: Barry Bonds is named NL MVP for a record seventh time and becomes the oldest player to win the award.

2007-11-15 17:04:37
432.   El Lay Dave
378 Good luck to all three of you. Our daughter was just as late. The induction didn't work the first day; took the attempt on the next day to get the labor started.
2007-11-15 17:05:56
433.   jasonungar07
I don't exatly want to encourage Ned to trade with Tampa, but what about getting Kazmir...I hear he might be available along with Crawford (who I really like as well but not needed).
2007-11-15 17:06:58
434.   El Lay Dave
Another good one from Keith Law:

JimBeau (Left Coast): What will be the five worst signings this winter? (And for extra credit, the worst trade?)

SportsNation Keith Law: (3:05 PM ET ) Romero, Rowand, Hunter, Linebrink, Glavine, and the worst trade will be whatever trade the Dodgers make that includes one or more of Kemp/Kershaw/Billingsley.

2007-11-15 17:07:48
435.   Eric Stephen
370 I'm in the same boat. I was due mid June and was born in late March. 4lbs, 5oz. at birth. And as anyone who met me at DT Day can attest, slightly larger than 4lbs, 5oz. now (although I'm working on it!).
2007-11-15 17:08:01
436.   Indiana Jon
378 Congratulations early and good luck tomorrow. Late is not bad. My second daughter was born 15 weeks early and I don't wish that on anyone. By the way, I find Spawn to be an excellent name.
2007-11-15 17:11:38
437.   RIYank
434 That is good.
Keith Law doesn't suck. He must be lonely at ESPN's baseball analysis division.
2007-11-15 17:12:24
438.   Bob Timmermann
I don't know if I was born early or late, but I believe there was a cross-fire hurricane at the time.

My mother said I howled.

2007-11-15 17:15:24
439.   El Lay Dave
438 If your mom raised you, what are you implying?
2007-11-15 17:16:18
440.   Bob Timmermann
So that's why my mom never would go to the dentist.
2007-11-15 17:16:36
441.   Gen3Blue
372 Sounds like they should pay him, if he is a superstar.
2007-11-15 17:17:00
442.   fanerman
I was born a couple weeks early.
2007-11-15 17:17:43
443.   jasonungar07
Wow Eric. Yeah I was 3 pound 9 ounces. They didn't think I'd make it. Of course its all the talk right now, my mom/dad is like see you couldn't wait and now your kid don't want to come out.
2007-11-15 17:20:51
444.   Bob Timmermann
I was a monstrous child when I was born. I beat up the other babies in the nursery.
2007-11-15 17:21:22
445.   natepurcell
Vlad Guerrero

age 21 302/350/483 OPS+ 117
age 22 324/371/589 OPS+ 150
age 23 316/378/600 OPS+ 146
age 24 345/410/664 OPS+ 162
age 25 307/377/566 OPS+ 139

Miguel Cabrera
age 20 268/325/468 OPS+ 106
age 21 294/366/512 OPS+ 130
age 22 323/385/561 OPS+ 151
age 23 339/430/568 OPS+ 159
age 24 320/401/565 OPS+ 150
age 25 ....????....

Miguel Cabrera is basically Vlad Guerrero a 6-8 years ago.

2007-11-15 17:24:11
446.   fanerman
My only concern with MCAB is if he turns into a Fatty McFatFat.
2007-11-15 17:24:11
447.   Eric Stephen
444 You beat the whimsy out of them!
2007-11-15 17:24:57
448.   jasonungar07
Nate without the steals. (not that it matters to me, just saying)

Bob you would have had no problem with me then but i'd take you now.

No just kidding, I honestly have never gotten in a fight in my life. As a soccer player, I had enforcers.

2007-11-15 17:26:49
449.   Gen3Blue
440 Its a gas,gas ,gas!
2007-11-15 17:26:57
450.   natepurcell

thats true. But in terms of being a hitter, they look really identical.

If Piggy could ever be motivated to work on his conditioning, he could age similar to Guerrero.

Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2007-11-15 17:28:48
451.   natepurcell
I still won't include Kemp, Billingsley or Loney in a Piggy package, but if they want to do something similar to Laroche + Kershaw + Meloan, that is probably the best package they can acquire out there.

Gosh, I am so torn. Sucks to be Colletti.

2007-11-15 17:30:24
452.   silverwidow
451 Might have to give up Josh Bell, too.
2007-11-15 17:31:46
453.   natepurcell
to add to 451, then you pray Sabbathia or Santana hit the open market after next season.
2007-11-15 17:33:27
454.   El Lay Dave
445 Henry Aaron
age 20 .280 .322 .447 104
age 21 .314 .366 .540 143
age 22 .328 .365 .558 151
age 23 .322 .378 .600 166
age 24 .326 .386 .546 153
age 25 .355 .401 .636 181

Hank Aaron!

2007-11-15 17:34:27
455.   Greg Brock
453 If you're worried about Cabrera's weight, then Sabathia should make you do a spit take. Dude is almost three bills.

Sabathia could eat Cabrera.

2007-11-15 17:35:23
456.   natepurcell

yea but fat pitchers age better than fat hitters.

2007-11-15 17:41:41
457.   bhsportsguy
456 You are too young to rememmber Rick Reuschel.

Brandon Jennings looked pretty good the other night, nice get for you guys.

2007-11-15 17:46:18
458.   Greg Brock
Help! has got to be the most ridiculous movie I've ever seen.

And yet, I can't ever stop watching it when it's on.

2007-11-15 17:47:57
459.   El Lay Dave
457 Or Mickey Lolich. Maybe he remembers Rich Garces, AKA El Guapo.
2007-11-15 17:48:42
460.   El Lay Dave
458 They have eight arms to hold you.
2007-11-15 17:52:15
461.   PadreJeremy
With Arod gone, Miggy should be even more on the Dodgers radar. To acquire this guy for a couple of good prospects would be a steal. He shouldnt even be on the market. Id also bet hed sign a long term contract for more then a reasonable price. LaRoche, Kemp and Kershaw would get it done. Id make the deal and never look back.
2007-11-15 17:56:44
462.   tjshere
A little late but I wanted to acknowledge that 321 had me LOLing, big-time.


2007-11-15 17:57:11
463.   bhsportsguy
I am not sure which group is more paranoid, folks here concerned about potential trades or the people over on those messageboards for that school that is located north of Wilshire, South of Sunset that has Westwood Blvd. going right up to front step and their angst about a certain head coach.

When you venture to both of these like I do, rumors fly around like Jacobs Field gnats.

2007-11-15 17:57:33
464.   dkminnick
458 Careful there, Greg ol' buddy.

Where is it on?

2007-11-15 17:57:37
465.   El Lay Dave
Vote for the best L.A. Dodger SS:


2007-11-15 17:59:05
466.   Marty
464 I show it being on Sundance channel at 7:15 PST.

I was watching an early Kubrick movie, Killer's Kiss this weekend. It was laughably bad.

2007-11-15 17:59:38
467.   Greg Brock
464 It was on Sundance Channel. But it's over. Sorry.
2007-11-15 18:00:00
468.   natepurcell
To acquire this guy for a couple of good prospects would be a steal.

thats the problem, if it were only a couple of good prospects, the trade would have been done already. Its for the top left handed pitching prospect in baseball and the 2nd best 3b prospect in baseball plus other players.

Not merely just "good prospects".

The Dodgers should not trade established Major League players.

2007-11-15 18:00:07
469.   Marty
Brock, you must get an east coast feed
2007-11-15 18:00:27
470.   dkminnick
Thanks, Marty!
2007-11-15 18:00:57
471.   bhsportsguy
458 Some really good lyrics though.

When I was younger, so much younger than today,
I never needed anybody's help in any way.
But now these days are gone, I'm not so self assured,
Now I find I've changed my mind and opened up the doors.

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down
And I do appreciate you being round.
Help me, get my feet back on the ground,
Won't you please, please help me.

And now my life has changed in oh so many ways,
My independence seems to vanish in the haze.
But every now and then I feel so insecure,
I know that I just need you like I've never done before.

2007-11-15 18:03:17
472.   Greg Brock
466 My satellite must get the East Coast feed.

It will be on again early morning, if you want to Tivo it.

2007-11-15 18:03:50
473.   underdog
Help! has great music and is a must-see for Beatles fans, but it is pretty ridiculous, and not as much in a good way as was Hard Day's Night, which is still a blast. Then Yellow Submarine's even odder, and then Sgt Pepper, which is not a Beatles movie of course, is the far end of the spectrum when it comes to bad. And then there's the Monkees' "Head", which is wonderful and completely bizarro nonsense.
2007-11-15 18:07:18
474.   Greg Brock
473 Hard Day's Night is a legitimately great movie. Plus, Lennon saying "Hi Girls" while he's in the car is a staple. We use it every time we enter a party/bar. British accent and all.

Hi gullllls.

2007-11-15 18:07:34
475.   Gen3Blue
Jon, I just finished reading enough of the posts to get back and reread your piece thoroughly. I don't have to be as reasonable as you do. Prospects are one thing, but ML players are another. I don't think you can ever trade more than two major league starters for one-it just doesn't k and isn't done. I consider Kemp s a starters, and LaRoche as close as makes no difference. No go! and then to throw in Kershaw! As for Billingsley, you have made one of the best cases that it would be insane to lose him (your radio interview) and I have heard others make the case. Teams succeed in the play-offs with pitching, and now the only way is to develop your own young ones.
2007-11-15 18:09:42
476.   dkminnick
467 - Oh well. Looks like it's back to indoctrinating my children with another night of watching The Beatles Anthology DVDs.

I actually do this and have been doing so all week.

2007-11-15 18:11:04
477.   natepurcell
I wonder if the Marlins would piggyback Olseon on Piggy's....back in a trade. They seem to dislike him.
2007-11-15 18:12:31
478.   Humma Kavula
474 My favorite A Hard Day's Night story comes on the DVD documentary... the movie is finished and they're screening it for the UA executives. The lights come up and there is silence. Then one says, "I don't know what I just saw, but I think we're going to make a lot of money."

In my opinion, 100 years from now, when people want to know who the Beatles were and what made them so special (other than some pretty great music), they will have A Hard Day's Night to show them.

2007-11-15 18:12:35
479.   D4P
Nice interception.
2007-11-15 18:13:59
480.   bhsportsguy
Red Sox rotation that won the World Series.

Josh Beckett (traded 2 of their top 5 prospects in a salary dump deal)
Curt Schilling - Free Agent
Dice-K - Free Agent
Jon Lester - drafted

The problem is that for as long the Dodgers have these young players at manageable costs, they will be targets for trades.

2007-11-15 18:14:19
481.   D4P
How in the world did Oregon score? I left the room to eat an orange when they had fourth down, and came back and it's 8-0.
2007-11-15 18:16:13
482.   D4P
2007-11-15 18:18:44
483.   natepurcell
upset city.
2007-11-15 18:19:44
484.   gvette
Actually, the one Beatles movie that is impossible to find, but indispensible is "Let It Be".

It's like the proverbial train wreck; you know that it ends up very badly, but can't stop watching it happen.

2007-11-15 18:19:46
485.   Humma Kavula
McCovey Chronicles' reaction to the Bonds indictment is clever.
2007-11-15 18:20:19
486.   Greg Brock
Last Exit to Springfield (AKA Dental Plan) on Fox LA.

Sorry, Jon.

2007-11-15 18:21:55
487.   Gen3Blue
480 That last sentence is such a perceptive truth. Damn.
The problem is the D's can't seem to make good trades or FA acqusitions. Is it luck, or lack of brains?
2007-11-15 18:22:10
488.   El Lay Dave
484 It is sort of the flip side to the exuberance of A Hard Day's Night.
2007-11-15 18:22:35
489.   Bluebleeder87

Kim Ng is the queen of arb, I doubt Miggy wants any part of her arbitration wrath.

2007-11-15 18:25:30
490.   Greg Brock
Dixon carries out his fakes better than any quarterback I've seen in a long time.
2007-11-15 18:26:27
491.   Bluebleeder87
Dodgerdugout Dot Com reports that the Dodgers are aggressively persuing Bedard & Rowand.
2007-11-15 18:29:08
492.   Bob Timmermann
And a little Ryan Leaf shall lead the Ducks to the Promised Land.
2007-11-15 18:30:52
493.   Bob Timmermann
Cool, Oregon has 11 points! That's my favoritest total in college football behind 4!

The Broncos scored 11 points Sunday.

2007-11-15 18:31:14
494.   dzzrtRatt
484 The rooftop concert from Let It Be is on YouTube. I had a notion to look it up late one night and found it exceptionally moving, as well as a great rock show.

Help!: "With this ring, I can -- dare I say it? -- rule the world!" That still cracks me up.

Plus, it's fun to watch the Beatles try to act while they're high.

2007-11-15 18:33:49
495.   Greg Brock
494 Really, really, really high.
2007-11-15 18:39:03
496.   MC Safety
495- Once Dylan busted out the yoda ( to use Greg Brock's term ) it was all over with.
2007-11-15 18:39:06
497.   natepurcell
An A-Rod blurb...

About a week later, A-Rod contacted Mallory, a friend who works in private wealth management in Goldman's Los Angeles office. Rodriguez knew the Yankees have a close relationship with the investment bank, which was instrumental in the launch of the team's YES Network.

Mallory called Cardinale, who works in the merchant banking section in New York and helped finance the network. Cardinale in turn got in touch with Yankees president Randy Levine.

A-Rod and the Yankees exchanged proposals via the bankers, and the deal gradually was framed in about a dozen telephone calls.


2007-11-15 18:40:30
498.   ToyCannon
I dug "Help" but haven't seen it in 25 years or so. If I have to get high to enjoy it again, so be it.
2007-11-15 18:41:35
499.   Greg Brock
498 Couldn't hurt.
2007-11-15 18:47:21
500.   El Lay Dave
Absinthe (in some forms) is legal again. Le Fé Verte and "Help" - that could work.
Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2007-11-15 18:47:49
501.   natepurcell
Sorry Oregon fans, Ducks are going to lose now.
2007-11-15 18:48:01
502.   Uncle Miltie
2007-11-15 18:51:16
503.   Daniel Zappala
Wow, that really stinks. Three important offensive players hurt this year for the Ducks. It seems like something always happens to prevent them from taking that last step to the national title.
2007-11-15 18:52:26
504.   Bob Timmermann
Rock Chalk Jayhawk!
2007-11-15 18:53:02
505.   Bob Timmermann
Also see 316
2007-11-15 18:53:17
506.   Bluebleeder87
I don't know how to articulate it but the whole "Game of Shadows" Bud Selig & the way the government is going about this whole thing just rubs me the wrong way, so much so that I really don't care about it (I actually never did to begin with) these guys wanted to get an edge, SO WHAT! Human nature is human nature, but the commissioner & government are making it seem like they killed sobody. stuff like this will always exist, it's just human nature man.
2007-11-15 18:56:25
507.   El Lay Dave
Too bad. I really wanted Oregon to represent the Pac-10 well in a BCS bowl and slap some other team around. Now, ?
2007-11-15 18:56:43
508.   trainwreck
Not another national championship game with Oklahoma in it. I hate Oklahoma.
2007-11-15 18:56:52
509.   Greg Brock
Oregon athletics...Live the disappointment.

Come on, Ducks! Overcome the Leafness of your quarterback. Quack Quack!

2007-11-15 18:59:54
510.   Greg Brock
This sucks. I have no cute comment.


2007-11-15 19:00:27
511.   Bob Timmermann
USC vs ASU on Thanksgiving Day for the Rose Bowl!
2007-11-15 19:03:30
512.   Bob Timmermann
At least I think USC would win a three-way tie among USC, Oregon, and ASU.

They'd all be 1-1 against each other and the next tiebreaker would be record against the team in fourth place, which will either be Cal or Oregon State.

They'd all have wins over Oregon State. But Oregon lost to Cal so they'd be out. Then it would be back to ASU-USC head up and USC would prevail.

2007-11-15 19:07:42
513.   Greg Brock
At least the guys in the booth are having a good time.
2007-11-15 19:08:16
514.   dzzrtRatt
506 Bonds was shoved by the awesome power of our mighty federal government into a classic perjury trap. The government knew, he was likely to lie because of the career and PR damage a truthful answer would have caused. Part of the calculation is that Grand Jury testimony is supposed to be secret, but the government can leak it whenever they want and then say, "Who, us? Leak?" Bonds knew whatever he said would be in the newspapers within days if not hours. What happened to Jason Giambi proves that. Also, perjury is very selectively enforced or even investigated. If a government witness tells a lie that helps the government's case, you will never see a perjury prosecution even considered.

If one side has all the power and doesn't have to play by its own rules, then no matter what kind of scumbag is on the other side, it's understandable why one might feel disgusted about the result.

2007-11-15 19:09:24
515.   Bob Timmermann
I think I saw that on an episode of "The Rockford Files."
2007-11-15 19:15:56
516.   Bob Timmermann
Arizona is getting revenge for the time it could have backed into the Rose Bowl as the second place team only to see Edgerrin James ruin everything.
2007-11-15 19:16:27
517.   El Lay Dave
514 I'd like to extend that thought. This is much like [Rule 5 violation]. When considering [Rule 5 violation], it's no wonder - the Ned Colletti of the [Rule 5 violation]. In conclusion, [Rule 5 violation].
2007-11-15 19:19:52
518.   trainwreck
Gee, poor Arizona.
2007-11-15 19:20:19
519.   El Lay Dave
516 The electrical activity in brain became extremely agitated at the awakening of that supressed memory. Thanks Bob.
2007-11-15 19:21:23
520.   Greg Brock
So, Bob won't type UCLA, but he'll bring up December 5th, 1998 without a care in the world.

That's nice to know.

2007-11-15 19:23:56
521.   jasonungar07
515 gosh man, you are so funny. it's funny, you're a funny guy. And yes you amuse me and no you do not look like a clown to me (I'm going out on a limb and assuming)
2007-11-15 19:26:12
522.   jasonungar07
when you play catch up to the comments after dinner, read and then begin to comprehend 514 and then 515 hits you it's just a real LOL
2007-11-15 19:27:02
523.   Bob Timmermann
I was referring to this episode of "The Rockford File"

It dealt with abuse of the grand jury system by a US Attorney.

2007-11-15 19:27:50
524.   Eric Stephen
512 Bob, Oregon beat both USC and ASU, so they'd win a 3-way tie.
2007-11-15 19:31:24
525.   Bob Timmermann
All that math gone to waste.

So USC needs Oregon to lose twice? Even the unnamed school in California could beat Oregon the way they are playing now.

I smell an Armed Forces Bowl bid!

2007-11-15 19:35:15
526.   gvette
512-- Assuming that USC, Arizona State and Oregon are all tied with 2 losses, won't Oregon get the tie breaker because they beat the other two?

517--Unlike local DA's the Feds usually don't lose "celebrity" trials (DeLorean was an exception). Fed prosecuters are top shelf attorneys,in law school they were the ones studying on Saturday night while the rest of us were working on our third pitcher of Bud.

2007-11-15 19:36:09
527.   jasonungar07
So now I don't know which part of this is story is funnier. The unintended joke or the fact that you knew that. Well played either way...
2007-11-15 19:40:51
528.   Greg Brock
As I am wont to do every year, I assert my position that Arizona and Arizona State should be banished from the Pacific Coast Conference.
2007-11-15 19:42:23
529.   Bob Timmermann
I've seen every "Rockford Files" episode at least three times.
2007-11-15 19:43:27
530.   Bob Timmermann
Arizona - only Pac-10 team never to play in the Rose Bowl. And I hope it stays that way.

Arizona State - only Pac-10 team never to make the Final Four. And may it remain that way.

2007-11-15 19:56:08
531.   Hallux Valgus
528 then who do you add? I vote for Colorado and Boise State. The rest of the Pac 10 gets to beat up on 2 crap basketball teams, and I get to take better better road trips than Kansas State and Baylor. Everyone wins.
2007-11-15 19:57:25
532.   El Lay Dave
529 Isaac Hayes was in a few episodes as a character named Gandolph Fitch. He wasn't a chef, was he?
2007-11-15 19:57:57
533.   Bluebleeder87

Cool stuff DzzrtRatt. for a guy well respected around here you kind of have a goofy name.

2007-11-15 19:58:41
534.   El Lay Dave
531 Add? The PCC had 8 teams, man. Eight. And we liked it that way.
2007-11-15 19:59:04
535.   Greg Brock
531 San Diego State and Cal Poly.

If UConn can make the leap to 1A (or FBS), than so can Cal Poly.

2007-11-15 19:59:34
536.   trainwreck
I take it that Brock says that because they do not border the Pacific.

Portland State and San Diego State it is.

2007-11-15 20:00:02
537.   Greg Brock
534 Yeah, my first choice would be "none."
2007-11-15 20:00:15
538.   Bob Timmermann
Say hello to the good people of Pullman!
2007-11-15 20:00:32
539.   Eric Stephen
I take pleasure in Arizona's Rose Bowl shutout. I always think to this SI cover, "Rock Solid":

2007-11-15 20:04:45
540.   Eric Stephen
This might be a stupid question, but Cal Poly Pomona or Cal Poly SLO?

I have friends/relatives that went to each, and both schools steadfastly refer to themselves as simply "Cal Poly".

I know SLO has a football team, but does Pomona?

2007-11-15 20:05:25
541.   Hallux Valgus
537 What if I ask nicely, maybe with a fruit basket? I really hate having Lawrence, KS as my 2nd best option. Been to ASU, planning Cal in 2010 and OU in 2014. 2014!

538 can't be worse than Kansas State. Tailgating in a field. We had WSU in in Seattle, which was nice.

2007-11-15 20:06:14
542.   El Lay Dave
Hawaii borders the Pacific. That's a nice road trip.
2007-11-15 20:07:05
543.   Greg Brock
540 The Mustangs of Cal Poly San Luis Obispo.
2007-11-15 20:07:39
544.   El Lay Dave
540 Pomona? Players would drop dead trying to breathe during August practices.
2007-11-15 20:07:43
545.   Bob Timmermann
Oregon is UO or U of O. OU is Oklahoma.
2007-11-15 20:08:42
546.   El Lay Dave
535 Both nicer places to visit than Fresno.
2007-11-15 20:10:20
547.   Hallux Valgus
545 Thanks. See, this is what I need to learn to compete in the PAC 10. The juxtaposition (is that the right word?) is a mid west thing- OU, CU, KU, MU... we're backwards.
2007-11-15 20:11:52
548.   Greg Brock
547 Don't forget Indiana University.
2007-11-15 20:12:40
549.   Bob Timmermann
Cal Poly Pomona used to play Division II football, but they dropped it in the early 1980s.

Cal Poly SLO's teams are billed as "Cal Poly" and they play in the Big West.

2007-11-15 20:16:15
550.   Bluebleeder87
There was a pretty good Cardinals power hitter (late 80's early 90's I think) that went to one of the Poly's I don't recall his name though. I have his baseball card!!
Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2007-11-15 20:17:19
551.   Bob Timmermann
Presumably this Cardinals power hitter was not SLO grad Ozzie Smith?
2007-11-15 20:18:37
552.   Eric Stephen
550 Ozzie went to SLO (after going to Eddie Murray's Locke High in LA), but only Tom Niedenfuer would call him a power hitter.
2007-11-15 20:20:27
553.   Greg Brock
551 552 You are both very lucky my DSL went down.

That was my answer first!


2007-11-15 20:21:45
554.   Bob Timmermann
Wayne Gross went to Cal Poly Pomona and he hit 121 homers. That's the leader for any Cal Poly grad from either school.
2007-11-15 20:21:59
555.   El Lay Dave
552 First UCLA vs. Miami, now Buffalo Head vs. the Wizard of Oz. The memories are coming back to haunt me all at once!
2007-11-15 20:23:11
556.   Eric Stephen
555 Buffalo Head is a great nickname! I've never heard that before.
2007-11-15 20:25:17
557.   jasonungar07

what do you guys think of this? I think I can get on board if its a one year deal.

2007-11-15 20:25:29
558.   Bob Timmermann
We even used that nickname affectionately. I always think that the overuse people ascribed to Broxton was laughable compared to the way Lasorda ruined Niedenfuer.
2007-11-15 20:26:26
559.   SG6
529 And you can do that whole "floor it in reverse, brake, 180, pop in in low, floor it and be gone."
2007-11-15 20:32:16
560.   Greg Brock
557 With Colon, Loaiza, and Wolf, it would be like getting a full season out of one pitcher.

Could work. We just have to stagger the injuries appropriately.

2007-11-15 20:32:19
561.   Bob Timmermann
I once made an incredibly fast U-turn in a narrow road.

After I did it, I felt very Rockford-like. And somewhat amazed at how I didn't wreck my car.

2007-11-15 20:35:51
562.   El Lay Dave
556 I had heard that his teammates called him that. I just found it in Orel's book:

2007-11-15 20:36:55
563.   El Lay Dave
560 We just have to stagger the injuries appropriately.
A Corleone-type plan.
2007-11-15 20:37:51
564.   El Lay Dave
561 Did Angel run up to see if you were all right?
2007-11-15 20:39:19
565.   El Lay Dave
560 They could rotate the fifth-starter job, with each making a start then immediately going on the 15-day DL with a sore shoulder. Awesome.
2007-11-15 20:39:55
566.   El Lay Dave
Whoa - is there a five-minute rule for cycles?
2007-11-15 20:41:18
567.   Greg Brock
I always blend Rockford Files with Barney Miller.

It's all one big 1970's cop show to me. And they all drive David Soul's car from Starsky and Hutch.

2007-11-15 20:44:26
568.   Bob Timmermann
That's why you don't appreciate "Freaks and Geeks" as much as I do.
2007-11-15 20:46:22
569.   Greg Brock
568 Not only did I put that on a tee for you, I wrote that very thing and deleted it.

On a tee, Timmermann. For you.

2007-11-15 20:50:58
570.   Bob Timmermann
If you keep that up, I may end my boycott.

But not yet.

2007-11-15 20:51:15
571.   trainwreck
I hope D4P is alright.
2007-11-15 20:55:04
572.   Bob Timmermann
He said he was going to be early.

Does Arizona have the dumbest fans in the Pac-10? If they stormed the field after being the unnamed school's scout team, what will they do after beating Oregon?

Burn down the stadium? Go on a long pillaging raid of the city of Tucson? Form themselves into organize gangs of looters stealing beer and portable DVD players?

2007-11-15 21:00:32
573.   Bluebleeder87
551 552

I got curious so I looked thru my cards & his name is Tom Brunansky & he DID IN FACT GO TO CAL POLY POMONA check it out [ ] while looking threw my cards I found out I have Grag Biggios rookie card!! whoo hoo!!

2007-11-15 21:10:16
574.   Bob Timmermann
Brunansky didn't play college baseball. He may have gone to Cal Poly Pomona in the offseason. He started with the Angels Rookie League team when he was 17.
2007-11-15 21:12:50
575.   Bluebleeder87
Oh, o.k. cause on the back of the card is says that he went to Cal Poly but I guess there was a technically in the word "he went to Cal Poly" well if that's the case I "went to Cal state L.A."
2007-11-15 21:13:23
576.   Bluebleeder87
PS You amaze me Bob!
2007-11-15 21:14:12
577.   gvette
Mitchell Page, a teammate of Wayne Gross with the A's in the late 70's and a pretty decent outfielder also went to Cal Poly Pomona.

Niedenfuer was probably wrecked by Lasorda, but,also, he was never the same pitcher after he married a Hollywood starlet

2007-11-15 21:15:03
578.   Bob Timmermann
I looked him up on Baseball Cube. Brunansky grew up in West Covina, so Cal Poly Pomona would have been a likely place for him to take classes. Another bio I found of him said that Brunansky was offered a football scholarship to Stanford.
2007-11-15 21:24:17
579.   Greg Brock
Much like Rockford and Barney Miller, Tom Brunansky and Steve Balboni are the same person to me.
2007-11-15 21:30:25
580.   Sam DC
Mitchell Page was a fine, plate discipline oriented, hitting coach for the Nationals in 06. Unf., he's had some bad alcohol problems, though reports are he's doing much better and he is working in the organization.
2007-11-15 21:32:14
581.   Bluebleeder87
We use to go practice at Cal State L.A. when I was a kid (it's walking distance from my house) the campus police always kicked us out though.
2007-11-15 21:32:38
582.   natepurcell
How do you guys feel about a Pierre for Jose Conteras swap?
2007-11-15 21:35:15
583.   Jon Weisman
You know who Arizona didn't storm the field against? Stanford! Because you


(That's for the CBS games.)

2007-11-15 21:35:22
584.   Greg Brock
582 Absolutely. In a heartbeat.
2007-11-15 21:40:48
585.   natepurcell

He's gunna cost 10 mil for 08 and 09 and has sucked really bad last year.

But 2 years of suckiness is less than 4 years of suckiness.

2007-11-15 21:40:51
586.   gvette
580--ARod will make more in a week than Page made in his career playing for Charlie Finley in the 70's and early 80's.
2007-11-15 21:41:18
587.   natepurcell
This field storming is going to be embarassing.
2007-11-15 21:41:49
588.   Bob Timmermann
I really want to see the Arizona fans get a penalty here.

These people have no shame. They aren't happy. They're just drunken idiots.

2007-11-15 21:43:38
589.   Linkmeister
Hey, in my day Arizona fans were bright, intelligent, and not drunk (until after the game).

There's a lot more of Tucson to pillage than there was back then.

2007-11-15 21:43:52
590.   natepurcell
They're just drunken idiots.

I resent that.

There wasn't enough time to get drunk before the game.

2007-11-15 21:44:24
591.   Bob Timmermann
So apparently, the University of Arizona doesn't hire security for their stadium. Or those people have lives that are emptier than mine.
2007-11-15 21:45:31
592.   natepurcell
Pillaging and drunkness is going to start in about an hour for me. Wish me luck!
2007-11-15 21:46:59
593.   Bob Timmermann
So if USC beats ASU, the Trojans will want the unnamed school to upset Oregon.

And judging by how Oregon played without Dixon, that's not that outlandish.

2007-11-15 21:47:28
594.   blue22
585 - Just wait until Hunter passes on Chicago to go to Texas, and that might be a real possibility. They've given a ton of playing time to Brian Anderson and Darin Erstad out there recently. Plus there's Ozzie's bunting fetish to consider.

Don't you just wish you knew management's true feelings about Pierre?

2007-11-15 21:50:36
595.   regfairfield
582 Long term, yep, but it arguably makes us a worse team in next year unless we go get Jones or someone else.
2007-11-15 21:50:47
596.   Greg Brock
594 We know management's true feelings about our CF.

That's the problem. Their true feelings are dumb.

2007-11-15 21:51:24
597.   natepurcell

Stop reading my mind.

2007-11-15 21:52:18
598.   Greg Brock
592 If we have Contreras, he won't hurt us very long. He wouldn't get the chance.

The other guy hurts us every day. And for four more years.

2007-11-15 21:53:28
599.   natepurcell
My school rules!!!!
2007-11-15 21:53:32
600.   regfairfield
Is it bad that I think just giving Juan Pierre away would make us worse? That he's actually contributing something to the greater good?
Show/Hide Comments 601-650
2007-11-15 21:54:30
601.   Daniel Zappala
I'm bummed for Dennis Dixon. He came into my office once at Oregon and was a very nice kid. He had his big chance to make it to the national championship, and his knee gave out on him. I hope his team at least gets to the Rose Bowl and that he can come back in time to play in it.
2007-11-15 21:55:31
602.   regfairfield
Also, can anyone tell me something to do with half and half aside from making White Russians before I kill myself. Bear in mind I don't have a way to make coffee.
2007-11-15 21:55:46
603.   blue22
596 - Until [insert overrated FA CFer here] is signed and one of Kemp/Ethier is traded, I'm going to maintain that this move to leftfield is right up there with Nomar "starting to take some grounders at third". It's a polite beginning to a long drawn out process of benching the unproductive veteran.

Then again, Nomar is technically our current starting third baseman, so maybe I'm giving entirely too much credit to our GM.

2007-11-15 21:56:16
604.   underdog
582 Did you hear about that somewhere Nate, or just playing armchair GM? Anyway, I'd do it.

I like the rotating 5th (injury-prone) starter idea between those 3 guys. Could work! Beats Tomdrickson. Just have to, yeah, make sure they plan their injuries accordingly.


Btw, belated return to this topic, but to those of you who love Hard Day's Night as I do, have you ever seen Richard Lester's The Knack (and how to get it)? Great fun from same era.


30 Rock was so money tonight. Laughs-a-plenty. Man I'm gonna miss that show.


Lastly, my soccer team lost 2-1. We've only given up 5 goals in 4 games, but we've only scored 2. (Small goal league.) We need a ringer. Is Kaka available?

2007-11-15 21:56:59
605.   Bob Timmermann
Gary Cohen is no longer on notice:

2007-11-15 21:57:45
606.   underdog
Make that, only given up 4 goals in 4 games (tied one).
2007-11-15 22:02:50
607.   Greg Brock
605 Wow. This is serious business.

You don't update "The List" on a whim.

2007-11-15 22:04:34
608.   bhsportsguy
Scrubs may never be laugh out funny but it has plenty of chuckles.

Also, I always liked Christa Miller.

"His Girl Friday" is on TCM right now, a very good movie.

2007-11-15 22:06:25
609.   CanuckDodger
600 -- Why do you think that? I would take an outfield of Young-Kemp-Ethier over Ethier-Pierre-Kemp anyday.
2007-11-15 22:07:53
610.   Bob Timmermann
They've made me so mad, that the school in Tucson is now the "unnamed school."

There will be no spelling "U.C.L.A." that will be tolerated here.

2007-11-15 22:12:00
611.   Uncle Miltie
Does Arizona have the dumbest fans in the Pac-10?
Yea, I think so. Isn't that why nate doesn't go to the games?

At Oregon, the fans wait until the game is over before they rush the field. Where was the security to prevent the students from going on the sideline?

2007-11-15 22:13:04
612.   Greg Brock
610 Huzzah!

Also, I need to go back and update my list on your list comments. Some people have been granted reprieves, others have been moved to death, others need to be added.

2007-11-15 22:13:23
613.   overkill94
608 This season of Scrubs is at least watchable, unlike last season's abomination (I always liked Christa Miller too going back to her Drew Carey Show days).

"His Girl Friday" was a very good movie, definitely one of the better "comedies" of the era. Two other quality classics I watched this week were "Rebecca" and "12 Angry Men", both totally watchable after all these years.

2007-11-15 22:13:52
614.   Eric Stephen
610 Bob, you could refer to the unnamed as "Rock Solid".
2007-11-15 22:13:59
615.   Bob Timmermann
At the Rose Bowl or Coliseum, if you run on the field, you will receive a beating from a large man in a yellow windbreaker.
2007-11-15 22:15:20
616.   Marty
His Girl Friday is the Alex Rodriguez of movies. They don't get better than that. It's a clutch movie as well.
2007-11-15 22:15:57
617.   Uncle Miltie
You taught at Oregon? Where are you teaching now?
2007-11-15 22:18:20
618.   Eric Stephen
When the eastern most Pac 10 school fans first started coming out of the stands, there were security guards in yellow windbreakers, but they just stood there. What is the point of having them there if they don't do anything?

615 I like to see a good beating now and then.

2007-11-15 22:20:31
619.   Greg Brock
613 Rebecca is such an unbelievably great movie, I pimp it to everybody. Joan Fontaine has been one of my great crushes forever.

Mmmmm...Joan Fontaine. How I adore thee.

2007-11-15 22:20:55
620.   Uncle Miltie
617 was directed towards Daniel Zappala.
2007-11-15 22:22:42
621.   Greg Brock
619 And I need to add Patricia Neal. In the pantheon of women that nobody my age knows about, those two elegant ladies reign supreme.
2007-11-15 22:22:58
622.   Xeifrank
How often does one conference have three different teams make it as high as the number two ranking during the season... and then have them all lose to unranked teams while holding that spot? How long has there been a ranking system in college football? Probably about that long.
vr, Xei
2007-11-15 22:23:04
623.   bhsportsguy
616 Its sad that they remade it with Mattheu and Lemmon.

I heard a recent interview with Joe Pantoliano who said that Cary Grant was always an underated actor and this film is an example of how good he is at his craft.

2007-11-15 22:24:27
624.   Xeifrank
622. How high in the rankings did each of these teams get this year? vr, Xei
2007-11-15 22:25:49
625.   bhsportsguy
621 I have already said that Teresa Wright goes on my list.
2007-11-15 22:26:48
626.   Bob Timmermann
ASU didn't make it to #2.
2007-11-15 22:29:11
627.   Eric Stephen
In the AP:
USC - 1
Cal - 2
ASU - 6
Oregon - 2

In the BCS:
USC - 11
Cal - 12
ASU - 4
Oregon - 2

2007-11-15 22:36:04
628.   KG16
what's amazing is that, given the remaining schedule... ASU could actually be playing for the national championship. Kansas has to play Missouri, the winner has to play Oklahoma. West Virgina has to play UConn. OSU has to play Michigan. With the right sequence of events... heck, Georgia could do us all a favor and beat LSU in the title game and set up an ASU-USC championship game.
2007-11-15 22:36:36
629.   Greg Brock
By the way, I think Hitchcock was the first director to sneak gay characters into his movies. Mrs. Danvers, obviously, and Farley Granger and what's his face in Rope.
2007-11-15 22:38:04
630.   regfairfield
609 It comes down to:

Do you think Kemp can play at least an average centerfield?

And do you think Delwyn can be decently above replacement level in the bigs?

And I think the answer to both questions is no.

2007-11-15 22:40:42
631.   underdog
Cary Grant in "Bringing Up Baby" (another classic screwball comedy), when answering door in a housedress: "I don't know, I just went gay all of a sudden!"

They don't come faster and more furious in pace than His Girl Friday, though, amazing dialogue. Rosalind Russell holds her own with Grant.

Jennifer Jason Leigh sort of pays homage to her in "Hudsucker Proxy."

2007-11-15 22:42:06
632.   Eric Stephen
628 Big 12 champ has the inside track to BCS title game. Only way it doesn't happen is if the winner of the Big 12 championship game loses before the game.

With USC and ASU playing on Thanksgiving, it's impossible for the loser to get back up in the rankings. But I am rooting for chaos.

And USC winning the Rose Bowl.

2007-11-15 22:42:16
633.   underdog
"Walter, you're wonderful, in a loathsome sort of way."
2007-11-15 22:44:18
634.   Greg Brock
631 One of the many reasons that Hudsucker is superior to Fargo.

Yeah, I said it again. But only because it's true.

Gooooooooo, Eagles!

2007-11-15 22:48:48
635.   LogikReader


-- although I still hope you're right. Or at least I hope that columnist is right.


Which Eagles? The Rock Group Eagles, the Philadelphia Eagles, or the Boston College Eagles?


Nate, I'm loving the "piggy" reference. Such a simple moniker cracks me up so! How do you do it?


Since I have the luxury of time, I'll list the priority list of offseason moves I don't want (for the Dodgers) from worst to best.

1. Trade Kemp, et al
2. Sign Torri Hunter
3. Sign Aaron Rowand
4. Sign Andruw Jones
5. Sign Livan Hernandez

That's my top 5 so far.

2007-11-15 22:49:07
636.   KG16
632 - well, there are two games for each of the Big 12 teams before the Big 12 title game. OK St or Texas Tech could beat Oklahoma, and then Oklahoma could win against Kansas or Missouri. And I didn't think things out well enough to check on USC-ASU actually playing each other this year.

But yes, chaos is the key to the BCS. I'd love to see enough crazy stuff happen to get Hawaii a title shot, but I doubt there is that much crazy left in this season.

2007-11-15 22:51:12
637.   bhsportsguy
Loved Ken Phelps bat, Ken Phelps, Ken Phelps!
2007-11-15 22:54:19
638.   Greg Brock
634 The Muncie School of Business Administration Eagles (of course)

Awugal wugala Ah!
Fight on, dear old Muncie,
Fight on, hoist the gold and blue,
You'll be tired, torn and tattered,
Once the Munce is done with you.
Gooooooooooo, Eagles!

2007-11-15 22:55:06
639.   bhsportsguy
636 Since last year, all the teams play each other in the Pac-10.
2007-11-15 22:56:50
640.   KG16
639 - really? I guess I should pay a bit more attention... the by product of my alma mater not sporting a football team, I guess.
2007-11-15 23:01:39
641.   Eric Stephen
636 I'll root for chaos just to throw a wrench into the BCS, as long as it doesn't involve Ohio St playing in the title game.
2007-11-15 23:02:17
642.   Bob Timmermann
If Oregon is without Dixon and Stewart for the UCLA game, fans in Eugene will be very nervous.

But fans in parts of Southern California will be very happy.

2007-11-15 23:02:41
643.   LogikReader

I'll drink to that!

2007-11-15 23:03:35
644.   KG16
642 - what is this UCLA of which you speak?
2007-11-15 23:04:03
645.   Bob Timmermann
And Ohio State won't be in the BCS championship.

I was told today that the Kansas-Missouri game is no longer called "The Border War", but "The Border Battle."

Because "war" implied bad things. Unlike a battle.

Oregon and Oregon State will still play their Civil War.

2007-11-15 23:04:28
646.   Greg Brock
My offseason wish list:

Colletti fired, Kim Ng becomes GM.
The new GM commits to LaRoche, Kemp, Loney.
Nomar is traded, we pay the bulk of his contract.
Our CF is traded, we pay the bulk of his contract.
James McDonald is given the chance to join the rotation out of ST.
Andruw Jones is given a one-year deal to prove his worth. We overpay.
Jeff Kent is told to shut his mouth.
Delwyn Young is a super utility player.

A man can dream.

2007-11-15 23:08:54
647.   heato
It looks like the Yankees (and possibly up to four other teams) think quite highly of Mike Lowell. At least it will look that way until the writer catches their typo in the second sentence.

2007-11-15 23:14:08
648.   Bob Timmermann
Hey, he was the World Series MVP. David Eckstein must be wondering where that big payday is.
2007-11-15 23:16:20
649.   KG16
648 - it's coming, right after Jeff Kent announces his retirement...
2007-11-15 23:16:32
650.   bhsportsguy
646 I can dream that like Homer Simpson, someday Greg Brock will utter the words, "My best friend Ned."
Show/Hide Comments 651-700
2007-11-15 23:16:38
651.   Greg Brock
648 Billy Hatcher is still waiting for his multi-year deal.
2007-11-15 23:21:17
652.   Greg Brock
650 We all have our roles. You're the diplomat. Bob's the brilliant one. D4P is the cynic. I'm the reactionary.

I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I accept Ned Colletti. The Mustache is no friend of mine.

2007-11-15 23:26:38
653.   underdog
646 I'll take three of those! Any three.


I dunno if Hudsucker is "better" than Fargo, but having watched them both fairly recently I can attest to the fact that HP sure is more enjoyable. Just like someday we'll admit that, yes, No Country for Old Men is superb, but I'd rather re-watch Raising Arizona than the former.

Okay, too much Barry Bonds blather on ESPN. It's either Barry Bonds, or drooling on the Patriots or Celtics, on that channel this week. TV off, book open, night everyone.

2007-11-15 23:27:19
654.   bhsportsguy
I thought Bob composed the DT Style Guide.
2007-11-15 23:28:45
655.   bhsportsguy
Oh and Patricia Neal in "The Fountainhead" was one attractive woman.
2007-11-15 23:31:18
656.   underdog
Btw, after reading a complete garbage column in a Chicago paper about Joe Crede and the Dodgers (trust me, the column is nonsense and not worth linking to), a lightbulb finally went off over my head, probably later than it did for many of you...

The Dodgers are rumored for just about everyone, in any cockamamie scheme a bored sportswriter can think up, because they do have so many young talented players. These rumors are mostly garbage for that reason, we have no idea of knowing if the Dodgers are involved in any of them, but just the sheer repetitiveness of what each report says ("the Dodgers are a good fit based on the number of young players yadda yadda") make them all suspect in my eyes. This one from Chicago was basically the last straw for me.

2007-11-15 23:32:07
657.   underdog
655 Hotter than Ayn Rand, anyway.
2007-11-15 23:35:38
658.   CanuckDodger
646 -- Why not Logan White as GM? He is going to leave if he is not made GM in L.A. before too long, he has the closest connection to the young talent he has brought into the organization, and we need to have him continue to bring in that kind of talent. If Ng leaves, what have we really lost? A negotiator?
2007-11-15 23:35:45
659.   Greg Brock
655 Do you really want our friendship to dissolve over Patricia Neal?

No, you don't. Back off my girl.

2007-11-15 23:38:23
660.   KG16
656 - I think another reason is the notion (not an illogical one) that Colletti has the mind set that he has to do something because the Dodgers finished 4th after leading the division for so long. Within some old school lines of thinking, any move is a good move in a case like that. It is that line of old school thinking that I believe Ned follows, it is closely associated with the idea that the kids have to knock the door down.

It is one of the old school points that annoys me.

2007-11-15 23:39:36
661.   Greg Brock
658 Has Logan White been a serious candidate for a GM position? Houston wanted no part, and Baltimore, a team for whom he worked, has shown no interest.

I think a White/Ng partnership would be fantastic. Two smart heads are better than one terrible hairpiece.

2007-11-15 23:49:13
662.   CanuckDodger
661 -- Can the teams that had GM openings recently, and didn't just promote from within, be said to "have a clue," though? And if the Dodgers' GM position opens up and White doesn't get it, I assume he will leave just out of the insult of being passed over. I also assume Ng would leave if she is passed over again, but like I implied, so what if we lose Ng? She doesn't bring much to the table that can't be easily replaced.
2007-11-15 23:50:57
663.   regfairfield
What do really really know about Ng's evaluation skills? The only move we know she made is re-signing Jose Cruz, and that didn't exactly work out? We just know that she really knows the transaction rules, which is just sad that every executive doesn't know.
2007-11-15 23:55:12
664.   bhsportsguy
659 Peace.
2007-11-15 23:55:57
665.   Greg Brock
662 Again, why can't there be a division of labor? White handles the scouting, Ng handles the administrative/payroll/financial aspects of the job, and they work as co-GM's.

Why does there have to be one Grand Pubah? Shouldn't teams look at redefining the way front offices do business?

2007-11-15 23:58:31
666.   Greg Brock
I wrote a really long reply to Canuck, and it got swallowed in the tubes. I'm not going to rewrite it.

Long story short, division of labor would be okay, and teams should redefine GM roles.

2007-11-16 00:19:30
667.   bhsportsguy
For Jon from Diamond's blog.

"Jason Schmidt was cleared today (11/15) to begin throwing, and he'll likely start with tossing next week in Arizona."

2007-11-16 00:23:37
668.   bhsportsguy
659 You can have the astronaut too.
2007-11-16 00:38:52
669.   jasonungar07
If anything with these yo-yo's I can see the next GM being Joe Torre.
2007-11-16 00:45:08
670.   jasonungar07
Pierre could be shifted to left field if the Dodgers do land Rowand or another premium center fielder such as Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones.

"The interest appears to depend on a lot of things," Landis said. "The Dodgers are apparently focusing on a veteran club and various ways to spend money. Aaron is a candidate, and so are other people via trade and free agency. It's still in the early process."

2007-11-16 01:16:24
671.   natepurcell
I got picked up by a "dancer" at the bar tonight. More to come in the morning when I am coherent.
2007-11-16 01:17:56
672.   bhsportsguy
Right now you hearing a lot of talk from agents because they are in the business of talking up their clients.

I think that there are a lot of clubs that are going to wait and see what happens regarding teams offering arbitration to their free agents, already one club was said to be wating until December 1st, 9:00 P.M. PST to see if the Padres will offer Michael Barrett arbitration before making him an offer.

The Winter Meetings do not begin until that following Monday, December 3rd, so by that point rosters will be set and arbitration offers will be given so unless you are a lower tiered free agent or just going back to the original club, I don't expect a lot of major moves for another 2 weeks.

2007-11-16 04:32:59
673.   D4P
I hope D4P is alright

I'm fine. I was one of those who thought

1. The Ducks probably wouldn't win all of their remaining games
2. Even if they did, they probably wouldn't make the National Championship game
3. Even if they did, they'd probably lose

2007-11-16 04:48:20
674.   D4P
Anyone know if ARod's new contract will have an opt-out clause...?
2007-11-16 05:05:51
675.   gpellamjr
674 I was talking to a Yankee fan colleague of mine, who said "There is no way" there's an opt-out clause. I imagine he was just conjecturing. But seriously, I can't imagine the Yankees would go for that.

Of course, he also said he's "not really happy Arod is coming back", so I don't exactly trust his instincts. He's glad Joe Torre's gone, because he doesn't think the Yankees did enough sacrifice-bunting and hitting-and-running.

2007-11-16 05:11:21
676.   D4P
He's glad Joe Torre's gone, because he doesn't think the Yankees did enough sacrifice-bunting and hitting-and-running

And with that, our collective day just got a little brighter.

I guess the presence of an opt-out clause will provide some indication as to ARod's agent's involvement. If it's there, (unnamed agent) was probably involved. If it's not there, ARod probably acted on his own.

2007-11-16 06:39:40
677.   Bluebleeder87

I've read here (I think) that if Boros wasn't directly involved one of his "people" definitely was.

2007-11-16 07:17:01
678.   Sam DC
671 Well, let us know if you need any help with bail . . .
2007-11-16 07:29:25
679.   ToyCannon
RIP Joe Nuxhall
2007-11-16 07:49:48
680.   Andrew Shimmin
[End of the month at the Sam DC household]

Mrs. DC: Dear, what's this? $500 to Chico's Bail Bonds in Tucson?

Sam DC: Uh, see, there's this guy from the internet. He, um, met a dancer. Um. Because Arizona beat Oregon, so it was a big day. . .

2007-11-16 07:50:06
681.   D4P
With all the talk of the improved Eastern Conference in the NBA, I see that the Lakers's 4-3 record (which is 9th in the Western Conference) would be 4th in the East.
2007-11-16 07:51:32
682.   LAT
Screw the Boston Herald. They better be wrong about these names.

2007-11-16 07:53:06
683.   Bumsrap
If the Dodgers sign Rowand team speed could be one of the best all time: Rowand, Pierre, Kemp, Furcal, Abreu. Plus a catcher that can steal 20 bases.

Just trade Kent already.

2007-11-16 07:54:40
684.   Bob Timmermann
The Macy's ad on the LA Times website may just send me over the edge. I really don't need to see it when I click on EVERY story.

Interstitial ads are the scourge of humanity. Not unlike peaches.

2007-11-16 07:54:55
685.   Sam DC
Surface temperature on Mount Collettii has risen 1.4 degrees in the last 24 hours . . .
2007-11-16 07:55:41
686.   Sam DC
Apparently temps are rising on Mount Timmermann as well.
2007-11-16 07:55:49
687.   D4P
The Dodgers seem willing to part with a package including the likes of outfielder Matt Kemp, pitcher Chad Billingsley and infielders James Loney and Andy LaRoche

Does this mean all four, or some combo of 3 or fewer?

2007-11-16 07:57:15
688.   D4P
Have you tried FireFox's "Adblock" feature?
2007-11-16 07:57:58
689.   Bumsrap
I am hoping those four names are a carryover from a year ago.
2007-11-16 07:58:17
690.   D4P
BTW: Has Jon registered


2007-11-16 07:58:23
691.   Bob Timmermann
To update our East Coast viewers, the fans of the easternmost school in the Pac-10 were put on notice and the school will no longer be spelled out by me.

My boycott against UCLA ended.

I hate the fans of the easternmost school in the Pac-10 with the heat of 10,000 suns and 4 supernovae.

2007-11-16 08:00:03
692.   D4P
I hate the fans of the easternmost school in the Pac-10

Those cats are wild.

2007-11-16 08:00:12
693.   Marty
629 Take a look at The Maltese Falcon. Every character except Bogie and Mary Astor is gay.
2007-11-16 08:02:17
694.   Bumsrap
If the Yankees want Lowell to play first then they might also consider either Kent or Nomar for a year.

I would rather trade Kent and Abreu to Texas for Kinsler.

2007-11-16 08:02:18
695.   Bob Timmermann
Even Captain Jacoby?
2007-11-16 08:03:11
696.   Sam DC
It's nice of the gods to give us this run of Andy LaRoche hitting gamechanging home runs day after day just to ratchet up the tension and angst.
2007-11-16 08:05:06
697.   D4P
See also: Ross, Cody.
2007-11-16 08:08:05
698.   ToyCannon
You will get to see how the Lakers match up against the East very quickly with games against the Pistons and Bulls this weekend.
2007-11-16 08:09:38
699.   Bob Timmermann
It's good to see that others have caught Baseball World Cup fever!

But don't forget the Dutch in the semis! They're tough and their pitchers aren't giving up many runs.

2007-11-16 08:11:02
700.   Sam DC
699 Is Shairon Martis pitching for the Dutch?
Show/Hide Comments 701-750
2007-11-16 08:16:38
701.   Bob Timmermann
No, the good pitchers have been Diegomar Markwell, Robbie Cordemans, and Leon Boyd.
2007-11-16 08:20:38
702.   LogikReader
Hey y'all.

Last night I forgot to add "Mike Lowell" to my top 5 "list" (see 635 ). It looks like Lowell is going to the Yanks anyway, so thankfully, one less thing to worry about.

A very strange question: You know, the problem with the second half of last season was pitching. So... If Ned has to make a move, why is he so focused on position players?

2007-11-16 08:23:33
703.   underdog
Doesn't McCourt worry about what fans think? Especially season ticket holding fans? If any of you are season ticket holders, or even if you're not, now would be a good time to remind him of how you'll be boycotting the team if Colletti trades all those players for Piggy or whoever. Reassure him how happy you'll be if they keep those players. Show them Jon's post above.

I guess email or a letter... Or send a singing telegram or carrier pigeon.

2007-11-16 08:24:47
704.   D4P
So... If Ned has to make a move, why is he so focused on position players?

Because Jeff Kent and Derek Lowe said the problem was with the young hitters.

Ned's too much of a Sabean Protege and Giant (did I mention he was still wearing his Giant ring after being hired by the Dodgers...?) to get rid of Messrs. Kent and Lowe instead of Messrs. Kemp, Loney, Billingsley, LaRoche, Kershaw, etc.

2007-11-16 08:25:52
705.   D4P
I guess email or a letter... Or send a singing telegram or carrier pigeon


2007-11-16 08:26:46
706.   Disabled List
What's the western-most school in the Pac-10?
2007-11-16 08:29:24
707.   Gen3Blue
682 These are the times that try men's souls.
I have no sane choice but to embrace the theme around here that ridiculous rumours take on a life of their own, and people just take the list they read somewhere else and add their own touches.
2007-11-16 08:29:38
708.   LogikReader

It looks like Oregon State, by only a couple of miles.

2007-11-16 08:29:40
709.   D4P
I believe that would be Oregon State.
2007-11-16 08:31:52
710.   D4P
Which Pac-10 school has the most periods in its abbreviation?
2007-11-16 08:31:57
711.   underdog
706 - I believe it's that ducky school in Eugene.

705 - as in our DT friend, or as in the newspaper?

2007-11-16 08:33:33
712.   underdog
D'oh, really, Corvallis is more Westernmost than Eugene? Wow, you're right, just barely.
2007-11-16 08:34:29
713.   dzzrtRatt
687 Not like I'm ruling out the possibility that Ned would consider Billingsley, Kemp, Loney and Kershaw all to be "prospects," worth giving up to land Cabrera, but the story seems to be more a creature of the massive media echo chamber. The "seem willing" is the dead giveaway.

Given how the three proven major leaguers on that list performed last year, my theory is: If three of those four are on the table for Florida, the deal would be done by now. You're not going to be able to find a better deal or a dumber GM to deal with, so Florida would want to jump on it now before someone in LA comes to their senses.

That they haven't done that yet leads me to believe it isn't real. Someone's lying or trying to make something happen by floating these names publicly. It could be someone inside the Dodgers' FO who hates all the damn kids and thinks we need more PVLs and need to spend a lot more money. It is even more likely someone inside the Florida FO who wants to prove to local media and all 19 of their fans that the team hasn't given up. There is also probably a desire to force the Angels to up their, as of now, tepid offer. If someone clever and very competitive was in charge of the Dodgers, he might let the impression stay out there as long as possible that these four players were on offer to the Marlins in order to weaken the Angels further by forcing them to give up another good player. We do have to play those guys six times, plus compete for the affections of Bill Plaschke.

2007-11-16 08:36:41
714.   D4P
It could be someone inside the Dodgers' FO who hates all the damn kids and thinks we need more PVLs and need to spend a lot more money

Someone who likes pasta, perhaps?

2007-11-16 08:39:14
715.   Greg Brock
Kemp, Loney, and Billingsley aren't prospects.

Can somebody please explain this to the moronic sportswriters in America? This echo chamber of trade talk has got to stop.

2007-11-16 08:46:08
716.   Ken Noe
715 They'll stop calling them prospects when the players' GM stops.
2007-11-16 08:48:53
717.   MC Safety
704- I was not aware of that nonsense. I havent loathed a non player like I do Coletti. McCourt is slowly but surely making his way up there with all this "I just know I hired the right man for the job" bs.

We should be actively shopping Nomar and the player who does not exist. Ned seems to be infatuated with "character" yet Derek Lowe is still on our team.

2007-11-16 08:49:01
718.   CajunDodger
Given how the three proven major leaguers on that list performed last year, my theory is: If three of those four are on the table for Florida, the deal would be done by now.

I could not agree more with this statement. If this is true, then Miggy would be taking a physical in LA today. My guess is that both the Angels and Dodgers are offering three of the players mentioned, but are balking at the fourth. I just can't see a scenario where Ned trades ALL of our young pitching for a position player. Maybe one or the other, but not both.

2007-11-16 08:51:11
719.   underdog
In defense of that Boston writer, he doesn't actually call those Dodger players "prospects," though he does say "prospective package of..." - Maybe that's the same thing? Either way, I'm hoping it's bull-oney.
2007-11-16 08:51:26
720.   CanuckDodger
713 -- The Boston columnist is writing about Mike Lowell and he has no knowledge of what the Dodgers are willing to do, but he is not quite an "echo chamber." If he were that, he would be saying the same thing he read in the Florida paper's website. But he is not saying the same thing that he read, he has changed it, so that instead of speculating that Florida might WANT X,Y and Z, now the Dodgers ARE WILLING TO GIVE X,Y and Z. It's like a story about catching a big fish: with each re-telling, the fish keeps getting bigger and bigger.
2007-11-16 08:56:03
721.   underdog
720 Or catching a big Marlin?


Yah, the way I hear tell it, the Dodgers done landed the big prize by giving away the player they call th' Minotaur, and The Chad, and one Bison, and a Loney, plus a LaRoche, and all of their Vegas 51s, and a heap of cash, by gum, that's how I hear tell it.

2007-11-16 08:56:51
722.   regfairfield
704 Keep in mind that one year of Jeff Kent or Derek Lowe won't give the Dodgers anything they need to win this year.
2007-11-16 08:57:08
723.   CajunDodger
Soon the "prospective package" for Miggy will include Penny, Kershaw, McDonald, Elbert, and Billingsley. Now that ARod is officially off the market, it looks like the papers need something sexy to sell copy.
2007-11-16 08:58:29
724.   D4P
I don't dispute that. But if This Dugout's Not Big Enough for the Two of Us (Kent/Lowe and Kids), then Kent/Lowe should be the ones to go.
2007-11-16 09:02:50
725.   MC Safety
722- Are you saying Derek Lowe has no value? Have you seen the pitchers available?
2007-11-16 09:06:07
726.   regfairfield
725 I'm not saying he has no value, but any team looking to add Lowe for one year wouldn't want to give up anything that would hurt them in the short run. He's probably worth a B prospect, but I don't think that's what Ned is looking for.
2007-11-16 09:06:30
727.   bhsportsguy
703 Sure he does, the fact that it appears that no matter how they perform, more and more buy tickets (18% increase since he bought the team) despite raising ticket prices, parking, etc.

Generally, it has been my observation that fans talk big but rarely make a stand where it counts, at least in Los Angeles and particularly with the Dodgers.

2007-11-16 09:07:26
728.   dzzrtRatt
Maybe Kent and Lowe have promised Ned they'll play better without all the racket the kids are making.

If we trade the future to make those two clowns happy, then I want 90 percent of their pay moved into the incentive category. If we don't win the World Series, they don't get paid. If Kent and Lowe are so sure this is the way to go, they can put their money where their mouths are.

2007-11-16 09:08:25
729.   D4P
Plus, some portion of fans "making a stand" involves fans who already bought tickets not going to games, a rebellion that isn't reflected in official attendance figures.
2007-11-16 09:10:35
730.   Bob Timmermann
The most abbreviations in Pac-10 school name is one and it's held by three schools:
Washington St.
Oregon St.
Arizona St.
2007-11-16 09:11:39
731.   regfairfield
727 I dropped my games from 15 to 1 this year. Frank sure is going to miss those 84 dollars.
2007-11-16 09:12:18
732.   D4P
Then again, you're no fun.
2007-11-16 09:12:30
733.   Kevin Lewis

Off the top of my head:


Pan Fried steaks with a red wine cream sauce using the juice from the steaks and the peppercorn seasoning.

Last night channeled all the stress and frustration of this week into the perfect storm at my softball game. I fully admit I shouldn't have said anything after the first bad call, but it apparently opened up a target on me with the umpire thinking, "you think that was a bad call, I can top it the next time".

Needless to say, I almost got kicked out of the game for arguing. I am ashamed of that since I umpire games, so I did apologize afterwards for my behavior.

2007-11-16 09:14:17
734.   Daniel Zappala
D4P, I was sure this was the Ducks' year. They had an unstoppable offense and an improving defense. They had a bevy of good wide receivers, two great tailbacks, and a QB with an amazing combination of mobility and accuracy. They lost a wide receiver and a tailback, and kept going. I thought they still had enough. This injury to Dixon is just terrible.

First they get left out of the BCS despite finishing 2nd in both non-computer polls. They lose Kellen Clemens to a season-ending injury when things were going really well. Now this.

I would feel worse for them if they didn't have the backing of Phil Knight.

Uncle Miltie -- yes, I used to teach at Oregon, now I teach at BYU. Which should be in the Pac-12, along with Utah.

2007-11-16 09:16:58
735.   CajunDodger
Gotta say that as an LSU diehard, I wanted to play Oregon more than any other team if we could get through these next three weeks. Losing Dixon was just SC losing someone like Leinart during their run.
2007-11-16 09:20:28
736.   Kevin Lewis
I am pretty bummed out about Oregon, and I didn't even watch the game. I just hate to see a season end that way. If they were just out played it would be fine, but I was pulling for them.
2007-11-16 09:23:12
737.   bhsportsguy
731 He made it up from me, I went from 21 to 42 games last year, times 2.
2007-11-16 09:23:31
738.   dzzrtRatt
They had a bevy of good wide receivers,

What a funny word "bevy" is.

In the 60s and 70s when I read a lot of Playboy, it was used frequently to describe all the women I would see in the magazine. A "bevy" of comely gals.

Associating "bevy" with a bunch of football players sets off an explosion in my brain, as I am hard wired to imagine naked young women. No wonder Oregon lost, my brain says. You can't play in the Pac 10 with a wide receiving corps of naked young women and expect to win.

2007-11-16 09:24:50
739.   bhsportsguy
735 Until this season, Pete Carroll had never dealt with his first string QB going out with an injury for a significant amount of time.

That is more than fortunate, that was unbelievably lucky.

2007-11-16 09:25:17
740.   LogikReader
Ok, now this is getting out of hand.

I don't think Ned is going to trade kids just to make Lowe and Kent happy. First of all, none of their sniping even started until Luis Gonzalez was on the team. Now that Luis has moved on to older pastures, I doubt we'll hear as much from the other two.

2007-11-16 09:26:37
741.   Bob Timmermann
So who else is up for a trip to Fort Worth with me to go see UCLA play in the Armed Forces Bowl?

UCLA is very good at feasting on teams that used to be perceived as good.

2007-11-16 09:28:36
742.   D4P
I would feel worse for them if they didn't have the backing of Phil Knight

Exactly. I'm don't support the Nike sellout and the Walmart/SUV/Megalomania culture that tells us that newer and bigger is better and that Oregon should tear down Mac Court and such.

I'd like to have a winning team, but not at any cost.

2007-11-16 09:28:47
743.   Andrew Shimmin
Pierre in LF is my breaking point. It's just too dumb. If that's the move they decide to make, good on them; I'll spend my six bucks on smack and hookers.
2007-11-16 09:29:06
744.   jasonungar07
I wish I had some of the optimism that some of you guys have.
2007-11-16 09:30:31
745.   Daniel Zappala
735 I was also rooting for an Oregon - LSU matchup. First of all, it would have been a great game. Second of all, a chance to have a very good Pac-10 team prove itself against an SEC team.

I'm rooting for BCS chaos now, like I usually do. I want as many one-loss teams as possible. I'm in favor of any situation in which the clear choice for a BCS berth is in doubt.

2007-11-16 09:30:50
746.   Sam DC
dodger Thoughts After Dark is starting early today.

And Nate hasn't even woken up yet!

2007-11-16 09:31:04
747.   CajunDodger
I would never say that Carroll is lucky since he is obviously a great coach, but it seems that injuries finally have caught up with his team this year after 5 relatively healthy years.
2007-11-16 09:32:22
748.   regfairfield
Aaron Rowand's agent assesses Ned Colletti's offseason activity:

"The Dodgers are apparently focusing on a veteran club and various ways to spend money. Aaron is a candidate, and so are other people via trade and free agency. It's still in the early process."

2007-11-16 09:32:24
749.   Daniel Zappala
742 We are of like minds. Except I bought my wife an SUV because we do have 13-18 kids, and she likes to feel safe riding up high.
2007-11-16 09:34:53
750.   Daniel Zappala
dzzrtRatt, I apologize for exploding your brain, but I'm not at fault for the pre-existing damage caused during the 60s and 70s.
Show/Hide Comments 751-800
2007-11-16 09:35:25
751.   Greg Brock
747 Is Carroll a great coach? I think he's a great motivator, a heck of a good recruiter, and a solid defensive mind. But I don't think he's a great coach.

That team has been a shadow of its former self since Norm Chow left, and as bh stated, they've finally faced the injuries that every other team has.

2007-11-16 09:37:12
752.   Daniel Zappala
738 Also, since "bevy" is commonly used to refer to a flock of birds, I think it was appropriate for me to use it to refer to the Ducks' wide receiver corps.
2007-11-16 09:39:18
753.   Daniel Zappala
751 BYU has also taken a long time to recover from Norm Chow's absence. He is an amazing offensive coach.
2007-11-16 09:39:44
754.   CajunDodger
I love my Tigers, but I don't buy in to the fact that the SEC would mop the floor with the PAC 10. I hear it in the local media down there, but I don't buy it. SEC football is more physical defensively, but much less dynamic on offense (save for Florida and South Carolina) than the PAC 10.

Being an LSU homer, I think we would beat just about anyone from the PAC 10 this year, but I don't buy that LSU, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, and Alabama as a group are markedly better than USC, Oregon, and Arizona State.

2007-11-16 09:45:21
755.   CajunDodger
In college, I think that you only really need those things you mention. Most coaches are either offensively (Urban Meyer, Mike Leach, Jeff Tedford) or defensively (Nick Saban, Pete Carroll, Les Miles, Bob Stoops) minded.

USC's problem currently is that Chow was so good, that it has been tough to replace him. If you can recruit, motivate, and really know at least one side of the ball, that makes for a pretty good coach in my mind.

2007-11-16 09:49:09
756.   Benaiah
754 - I believe that. SEC football is a cut above year after year. The Big 10 and Big 12 are especially overrated, the PAC 10 at least is very good. I think that Kansas/Oklahoma whoever will get absolutely crushed by LSU.
2007-11-16 09:54:22
757.   LAT
You can't play in the Pac 10 with a wide receiving corps of naked young women and expect to win.

Two words: "Bud Bowl"

2007-11-16 09:55:32
758.   Daniel Zappala
754 I agree with that. I didn't mean to imply that I buy into the SEC hype, just that the best teams in the Pac-10 and the best teams in the SEC are a good match for each other, and I would have loved the opportunity to see that matchup.
2007-11-16 09:57:40
759.   therickdaddy
Coaches announced:
2007-11-16 10:03:05
760.   LAT

Oops I think I meant "Lingerie Bowl." I get beer and ladies underwear confused sometimes. Sounds like Nate had the same thing happen to him last night.

2007-11-16 10:07:23
761.   LogikReader
Can't wait to hear the story that Nate has for us. Boy I sound like a 14 year old right now...
2007-11-16 10:08:48
762.   KG16
738 - the bevy strategy could be effective with a bunch of college age guys playing defense, I would think...
2007-11-16 10:09:02
763.   bigcpa
759 Bob Schaefer doesn't exactly scream heir apparent at 63. Here's some background on the guy:
2007-11-16 10:12:04
764.   fanerman
761 Sure seems like Nate has done a much better job of enjoying his college years than I.
2007-11-16 10:15:39
765.   Jon Weisman
763 - So Katie Couric's job is safe for another year?
2007-11-16 10:17:54
766.   Bluebleeder87

Thanks for the heads up bro.

2007-11-16 10:19:35
767.   CajunDodger
The paper is San Jose is saying that Ned has hired the Giants head of international operations to be his special assistant.

He really loves that staff...

2007-11-16 10:20:16
768.   Bluebleeder87
Jason Schmidt has been cleared to start throwing already also that's good news.
2007-11-16 10:21:17
769.   CajunDodger
I definitely liked that as well. You never know...with the way things are going, Kansas could lose, Ohio State could lose to Michigan and then Arizona State could be right there.
2007-11-16 10:21:41
770.   Bluebleeder87
the thread about our #'s. Are we gonna be assigned #'s or what?
2007-11-16 10:24:09
771.   CajunDodger
I just got to thinking which would be better:

Ned making a crazy trade for Bedard or Miggy and having to watch Kemp, Bills, and LaRoche go out the door.

Us making a crazy FA signing like the rumored Rowand signing.

I think we can recover from a bad signing, but a bad trade could screw us for 3-5 years. Just an observation.

2007-11-16 10:24:53
772.   Sushirabbit
So is Ghame Over throwing again? And if so what's the word?
2007-11-16 10:25:38
773.   ToyCannon
Glad to see Ken Howell is going to become the bullpen coach. They were right in that they wanted someone close to the kids on the coaching staff.

Doesn't that signal that they aren't going to moving the pitching prospects?

He can't be very familiar with Elbert, Kershaw or Mcdonald since he's been with Vegas for the last two years and last worked for the Sun's in 2005. He should be very familiar with Chad, Houlton, Meloan, Hull and Kuo.

2007-11-16 10:26:47
774.   underdog
765 - I thought the same thing!

Never heard of that Bob Schaefer. Perhaps Ken can enlighten us on his bench-coaching skills.

Glad for Ken Howell about his promotion. That's cool.

2007-11-16 10:27:34
775.   KG16
771 - my concern is that option one will lead to option two. And of course, I highly doubt option two will be thought out until after option one is completed.
2007-11-16 10:28:57
776.   Jon Weisman
770 - That was just for fun.
2007-11-16 10:29:10
777.   gvette
771-- McCourt can always make more money to cover a bad FA deal (raise parking AGAIN etc),

BUT there is nothing that starts the day off worse than looking at the morning box scores at a bad trade (Pedro/Piazza etc)

2007-11-16 10:31:50
778.   regfairfield
771 It's much easier to recover talent in the draft than it is to get a top 20 player. Yeah, a truly bad trade would kill us, but so long as a trade doesn't involve Kemp and Billingsley, I won't mind if it's for legitimate elite talent.
2007-11-16 10:34:04
779.   natepurcell
My annual offseason plan is almost complete. I've done one the past few years..the Schmidt signing was my fault!....My Bad.
2007-11-16 10:34:59
780.   fanerman
779 THAT is your first post of the morning?
2007-11-16 10:37:29
781.   Bob Timmermann
Here's the bench coach's job:
1) wake up the manager
2) tell him if a lefty or righty is coming up to bat
3) tell him if a lefty or righty is warming up in the bullpen
4) doublecheck the lineup card to make sure everybody is in the right order
5) write whimsical memoir
2007-11-16 10:38:19
782.   bhsportsguy
776 Whatever you say 26.
779 If Jason Schmidt is the first thing on your mind, than I am rethinking my plan to live vicariously through you.
2007-11-16 10:39:00
783.   gvette
778--I just have too many nightmares about the pre Logan White draft era (Glen Davis, Bill Bene etc)to embrace the Draft the way most the folks on this Board do.

Hate is too strong of a word, but I hope I never run into Fred Claire anywhere.

2007-11-16 10:39:17
784.   bhsportsguy
781 Don't forget tackling the opposing team's best pitcher when given the oppportunity.
2007-11-16 10:41:21
785.   bhsportsguy
783 See 51 to relive those memories.
2007-11-16 10:42:03
786.   Jon Weisman
781 - Who tucks in the manager at night?
2007-11-16 10:42:14
787.   D4P
Who's in charge of waking up the bench coach?
2007-11-16 10:43:14
788.   Bob Timmermann
Bench coaches live on espresso and Red Bull.
2007-11-16 10:45:30
789.   regfairfield
783 Even then, it's easier to replace a good player through free agency than it is to replace an elite player.

I do believe that you should be willing to give up almost everything for elite level talent. A 90 run player is worth far, far more than three 30 run players, maybe even more than three 50 run players, especially when you have money to spend.

2007-11-16 10:47:33
790.   Bob Timmermann
Baseball managers are put to sleep by either Mr. Jack Daniels or Mr. Johnny Walker Black.
2007-11-16 10:49:24
791.   bhsportsguy
790 I think Joe Torre can afford Johnnie Walker Blue.
2007-11-16 10:52:11
792.   Brent Knapp
As well as LaRoche is hitting right now in the world cup, is there consensus that he should be penciled in as the starting 3B for 2008? Even if he really struggles and we realize he's not what we hoped we could still trade for cabrera or someone like rolen during the season.
2007-11-16 10:52:47
793.   natepurcell
If Jason Schmidt is the first thing on your mind, than I am rethinking my plan to live vicariously through you.

Well it was the first time I ever got hit on by a dancer outside of umm..their domain. So it was pretty cool. She asked if I wanted to ditch my friends and go some place with her but I had better judgment not to. She put her number in my phone and said she was dancing tonight and I should come.

I don't know if I should. I'm kind of intimidated...her name is Gauge for crying out loud.

2007-11-16 10:53:46
794.   natepurcell

His hitting might convince the Marlins that he is good enough to be the highlight of a package instead of Kershaw or Kemp.

2007-11-16 10:54:54
795.   Daniel Zappala
gvette and Jon (!) broke up the bid to have 10 consecutive comments properly refer and link to previous comments. Kudos to bhsportsguy for trying to make up for it with several double-reference comments.
2007-11-16 10:55:23
796.   regfairfield
792 I think he should if we can't get a reasonable deal done for Miguel. Reality is that he's behind Nomar on the depth chart.

793 It will either be amazing, or it will be a great story. Either one seems good to me.

2007-11-16 10:56:47
797.   MC Safety
794 - I would love to see any deal without Matt Kemp and Chad Billingsley.
2007-11-16 10:57:31
798.   bhsportsguy
793 Okay, I'm slow, does Gauge have some meaning to college kids that I am unaware of.

Nate, you have audience of attorneys, dads, soon to be dads, media employees and basically mostly guys who don't have that opportunity presented to them so even if you have lie, go for it.

2007-11-16 10:57:49
799.   KG16
793 - speaking from experience, call her.
2007-11-16 10:58:10
800.   regfairfield
798 Do you know anyone outside of the adult industry with the name Gauge?
Show/Hide Comments 801-850
2007-11-16 10:58:41
801.   bhsportsguy
796 Can you start a poll on TrueBlue to vote on what Nate should do tonite?
2007-11-16 10:58:53
802.   Daniel Zappala
793 I'll be the one to play your conscience, telling you to hold out for someone with more going on in their life than being a "dancer". True happiness lies elsewhere.
2007-11-16 10:59:30
803.   gvette
783--Thanks, I feel post traumatic syndrome setting in;

789--A lot depends on how much you trust the people evaluating the talent; I'm not sure when for every plus move (Ethier) you get Baez,Hendrickson,Seo and Lance Carter.

2007-11-16 10:59:36
804.   ssjames
791 Mmmmmmm, Johnnie Walker Blue
2007-11-16 10:59:43
805.   regfairfield
802 I don't think anyone is advocating something long term here.
2007-11-16 11:00:33
806.   bhsportsguy
800 First or last name?
2007-11-16 11:00:44
807.   regfairfield
803 Well true, most of my theories assume that you have the ability to properly identify talent.
2007-11-16 11:00:53
808.   Brent Knapp
If we could get Cabrera for LaRoche and someone like Ethier or D. Young or an arm other than Bills or Kershaw I'd be ok with it. Even if we sign Cabrera to an extension I'm afraid he's going to eat his way off third base and into the AL. LaRoche's minor league stats are very similar to Wrights, slightly more power, slightly less SB. I think LaRoche, Loney, Kemp, and even Ethier are bound to struggle this year. I'm convinced that we spend 2008 giving all the kids a chance to play, including Abreu and Hu, and those that make the cut start for us in 2009. At least we would know exactly where we have holes for the lineup in 2009., with a much deeper free agent pool.
2007-11-16 11:01:07
809.   regfairfield
806 First.
2007-11-16 11:01:41
810.   Bob Timmermann
Read at your own peril:
2007-11-16 11:01:50
811.   Marty
802 Let's just call it "research". Nate has an academic mandate.
2007-11-16 11:02:09
812.   natepurcell

Long-term means last semester of senior year stripper booty call right?

2007-11-16 11:02:43
813.   bhsportsguy
802 Gosh Daniel, alcohol and possible pre-marital shennigans on this thread, this type of material cannot play well in Utah can it?
2007-11-16 11:03:05
814.   regfairfield
808 Wright was two years younger and Norfolk is an extreme pitchers park. I'm LaRoche's biggest fan, but he's not David Wright.
2007-11-16 11:04:21
815.   fanerman
810 Is that the same one?
2007-11-16 11:04:23
816.   natepurcell

I have mandated in the past that the Dodgers should put their Major League players off the table. Players like Bills, Kemp and Loney are not prospects anymore.

Even without them, we have a top 5 system in the minors. The community over at minorleagueball rated our system as #2 or #3...and thats from a group that includes maybe 4 frequent Dodger fans.

2007-11-16 11:05:25
817.   natepurcell

I don't think they are the same.

2007-11-16 11:05:30
818.   bhsportsguy
812 Nate's problem is that if he had met Logan White and he put his number on Nate's phone, he'd would have called him the minute he woke up today.
2007-11-16 11:06:31
819.   fanerman
818 Yeah, well, pretty much everybody on Dodger Thoughts would do the same thing there.
2007-11-16 11:08:40
820.   D4P
Poor girl. She appears to have been typecast.
2007-11-16 11:09:06
821.   Bob Timmermann

For some reason, that typo made me laugh.

I'm beginning to wonder if bluebleeder's typos are intentional because they are getting funnier and seem to pop up in strategic places.

2007-11-16 11:09:26
822.   ToyCannon
Depending on your makeup she may end up destroying you as in "The Blue Angel".

Course if she picked you out of a group of students I expect you will have plenty of opportunities for years to come.

2007-11-16 11:09:41
823.   Bluebleeder87

oh, o.k. thanks.

2007-11-16 11:09:44
824.   KG16
819 - not me, I'd have waited until I was driving home from Gauge's house...
2007-11-16 11:11:03
825.   Disabled List
Nate, either call her, or give me her number.
2007-11-16 11:11:11
826.   D4P
I'm beginning to wonder if bluebleeder's typos are intentional

I've wondered about that for a long time.

2007-11-16 11:11:33
827.   CajunDodger
Holy Cow! I just put that up at work. Got to call the IT guy and get him to erase that. Own peril is right...
2007-11-16 11:13:21
828.   fanerman
827 Yeah, I totally should not have clicked that link.
2007-11-16 11:13:59
829.   twerp
The Boston Herald piece about the Dodgers possibly trading some of the crown jewels sounds like nothing more than a rehash.

If something is written or broadcast, too many journalists tend to give it instant credibility and run with it as fact. Usually they won't have any way to verify the accuracy, nor much interest in doing so even if they do.

Unlikely a writer clear across the country has better info than someone closer. Not that being closer guarantees accuracy.

For many in media these days the watchword seems to be "stay tuned for more breaking speculation."

Ok. Now I yield the soapbox. :)

2007-11-16 11:14:02
830.   Sam DC
I have started spelling the word tomorrow in all my emails like this: tomrow.

It's not a typo.

I am making a new word.

In five years, you'll all thank me.

2007-11-16 11:16:38
831.   Bob Timmermann
It was lawyers who decided to start spelling "indite" as "indict" and not changing the pronunciation.
2007-11-16 11:17:16
832.   bhsportsguy
Wait, I typed shennigans instead of shenanigans so if bluebleeder87 (see 26, numbers would be a shorter thing to type) is getting grief about it, please direct your comments to me, #23.
2007-11-16 11:18:48
833.   bhsportsguy
830 Oh and lets not get started on the perils of using the word "public."
2007-11-16 11:19:35
834.   Sam DC
Now, I am not condoning this sort of behavior or saying the perpetrators are Heroes of the Nation or anything like that.

But the note is kind funny . . .

2007-11-16 11:20:37
835.   CajunDodger
I would normally say that, but some of the New York media has been running circles around the LA media lately about everything that has to do with the Dodgers.

Not saying that is the case here, but there is definitely less interest in the kids here in LA media than there is elsewhere.

2007-11-16 11:22:30
836.   KG16
834 - I can sympathize with the perpetrators.

By the way, any of the lawyers in the crowd looking for contract help?

2007-11-16 11:24:12
837.   blue22
ESPN thinks Joe Crede would be a great fit for LA since LA has so many great young players to offer (hey, like Andy LaRoche - the White Sox would love him!)

They are also reporting that Rowand is seeking $15M per year. "Seeking" is a lot different than "getting", but geez $15M???

2007-11-16 11:24:21
838.   KG16
There is something surreal about listening to a former offensive lineman trying to provide legal analysis on ESPN. The funniest line is, "I'm just speaking as a simple law person here".
2007-11-16 11:24:46
839.   bhsportsguy
835 Four words, Joe Torre, Don Mattingley.

Also, as I predicted, once the NBA started, LA becomes a Laker town especially now with USC not having championship aspirations.

2007-11-16 11:25:41
840.   Kevin Lewis
The funny thing is that when I saw "dancer", I immediately thought Ballet.

Man I am sheltered.

2007-11-16 11:28:46
841.   CajunDodger
Yeah, I saw that $15M number and was awed as well. This from a guy with an OPS+ of under 90 just two years ago.

Seriously, someone lock Ned up in a nice comfortable cabin somewhere in Alaska for the next two months and take away his cell phone.

2007-11-16 11:29:17
842.   KG16
839 - yeah, the Lakers provide the Dodgers the best cover in sports. This town (by which I mean "market") is first and foremost a Laker town. Short of the Angels or Dodgers signing A-Rod and then trading their single-A club for Johan Santana and their double-A team for Derek Jeter, nothing was going to take the Lakers off the minds of sports fan. That's probably a good thing, unless your concern is that McCourt/Colletti want to be in the media during the hot stove season.
2007-11-16 11:29:27
843.   thinkblue0

here's how I imagine the negotiations will go down.

Ned: We're set to offer up 9 million a year
Agent: We want 15
Ned: DONE!

Then we get introduced to our new four year 60 mill CF.

2007-11-16 11:29:31
844.   underdog
I don't know why, but I was reminded of this line from "The Lookout" (which I just watched last night, good film) that Jeff Daniels says regarding a girl named Luvlee that Daniels roomie, Joseph Gordon Levitt, invites home.

"She's a dancer? I assume the kind involving a pole..."

2007-11-16 11:30:09
845.   Bob Timmermann
I now have a copy of the new Plaschke bio of Lasorda.

I hope to have a review up for it on Monday.

2007-11-16 11:30:38
846.   MC Safety
838 Hilarious. Thank the lord for Fox Soccer.
2007-11-16 11:31:52
847.   underdog
837 I bet they just picked up on that nonsense from that Chicago newspaper column I mentioned last night (which I believe I called garbage or something and refused to link to). So it's a rumor from a rumor that has no basis in reality, from a columnist wondering aloud since he knows the Dodgers have a lot of great "prospects."
2007-11-16 11:32:37
848.   CajunDodger
As loopy as Lasorda is now, I was bummed that I did not make it out to one of the book signings so that my kid can have a copy with his name on it.
2007-11-16 11:33:29
849.   underdog
845 You're actually gonna read that thing? You're a stronger man than I, Gunga Din.
2007-11-16 11:33:37
850.   fanerman
844 Comment #840 reminded me of Independence Day (the movie).

Vivica A. Fox: I'm a dancer.
First Lady: Ballet?
Vivica A. Fox: No, exotic.

Or something like that.

Show/Hide Comments 851-900
2007-11-16 11:34:43
851.   Bob Timmermann
Someone has to read it. I'm more than willing to take one for the team.

It's also not very long. It's just 236 pages and it's not like I'm trying to read James Joyce.

2007-11-16 11:35:19
852.   KG16
more from the insane legal analysis of ESPN, Steven A. Smith: the only thing Barry Bonds did wrong was take steroids, he didn't do anything illegal.



Oh, then he says that Jason Giambi "stole $120 million" because he stopped producing.

2007-11-16 11:36:14
853.   Sam DC
Just think, that's only 2,360 seperate one sentence paragraphs!
2007-11-16 11:36:15
854.   KG16
851 - and just think, if it was written with real paragraphs, it would only be 110 pages long.
2007-11-16 11:36:38
855.   fanerman
852 I consider Steven A. Smith having the job he has to be a form of theft.
2007-11-16 11:36:52
856.   KG16
853 - one second? good lord. I blame the time zones
2007-11-16 11:37:11
857.   CajunDodger
Other than his spot-on unintentional Chris Rock impersonation, Smith is completely useless.
2007-11-16 11:37:12
858.   blue22
852 - the only thing Barry Bonds did wrong was take steroids

Pretty awesome conclusion, considering that is about the only thing he didn't do wrong in this situation.

2007-11-16 11:38:51
859.   CajunDodger
Am I sort of violating Rule 9 when I say that we are approaching the magical 1000 comment mark?
2007-11-16 11:39:24
860.   bhsportsguy
845 I will save you the time.

Tommy Lasorda, who once hawked spaghetti sauce and ribs, apparently found time to befriend Presidents and Sinatra while having the greatest job (except for when Fox owned team) in the world now comes forth with stories that you may have only heard 100 times but never bound together and on nice paper to boot.

Bill Plaschke was brought on to fill in the spaces left between Tommy's strange choice of using only adjectives when talking about himself and the Dodgers.

2007-11-16 11:40:19
861.   fanerman
Speaking of rules, can someone tell me what the unlisted "Rule 13" is?
2007-11-16 11:42:06
862.   bhsportsguy
850 I have known some ballet dancers (and not in the way that Nate's dancer was trying to get to know him) and I have no problem if they are the image that you would have when hearing the word dancer.
2007-11-16 11:43:34
863.   fanerman
861 Is "Rule 13," "don't ask about Rule 13"?
2007-11-16 11:43:53
864.   ssjames
861 It has to do with a phrase that Jon despises, which has to do with regurgitating food, involuntarily, into one's mouth, as an expression for something that one does not like.
2007-11-16 11:45:12
865.   El Lay Dave
861 hard to without violating it.
2007-11-16 11:45:51
866.   Sam DC
861 The problem is, you can't describe Rule 13 without violating Rule 13.

And it's yucky.

(if you search Rule 13 in the sidebar search box, i expect you'll find your way to an explanation)

2007-11-16 11:46:24
867.   Sam DC
2007-11-16 11:50:48
868.   bhsportsguy
867 I know there is some frustration here with how the Lakers tend to dominate the local spors scene even when they are not playing but it cannot compare to how much bigger Redskin coverage is to probably almost everything else sportswise in DC can it.

My guess is that very few days go by in off-season without a story and once July hits, probably non-stop until after the Super Bowl.

2007-11-16 11:56:35
869.   fanerman
I'm not entirely sure I follow, but that's probably close enough for me. I don't think I've ever violated that rule.
2007-11-16 11:58:19
870.   Daniel Zappala
Someone has to read it. I'm more than willing to take one for the team.

Good. Can you read this thread for me too?

2007-11-16 12:00:11
871.   underdog
868 But that makes more sense to me, given the Redskins tradition there, vs. the very new baseball team that is still in its infancy, and the fairly new basketball team - er, well, recently re-named basketball team. I guess the franchise hasn't changed, but also hasn't had much success at all since the 70s.

And that's about it... So I can understand more how the Redskins dominate the coverage.

But then again, the Lakers have been consistently competitive for years, almost never missing the playoffs, and there's no NFL team, and the Dodgers have had a lot of ups and (more) downs the past 20 years, so I guess that sort of makes sense, too.

2007-11-16 12:01:21
872.   KG16
I took one for the team and read Plaschke today. Just wanted to let everyone know, he set a record today, 3 sentences in one paragraph. Granted, two of those sentences are made up of 4 words - total. Actually, he did it twice, the second time using more than 4 words in two sentences.

It's a column on Bonds, still feels like a twelve year old wrote it.

He also gets something wrong, saying that there was a time when Latin players couldn't play in the majors. If I recall correctly, white Latin players have been in the majors since the 1800s.

2007-11-16 12:04:05
873.   bhsportsguy
870 You need something that Billy Crystal mentioned the other night when he received his Kenndedy Center Mark Twain Award for American Comedy (or whatever its called), he said when he heard the name Mark Twain, his first thought, Cliff Notes.
2007-11-16 12:04:28
874.   fanerman
868 Aren't there worse things than LA sportswriters speculating about what the Dodgers should do in the offseason, especially when front office people seem particularly receptive to said sportswriters?
2007-11-16 12:06:40
875.   capdodger
868 Pretty much. NBC has a fifteen minute section of it's 6 PM news cast devoted to chewing the fat with Joe Gibbs. It is funny to watch the locals freak when the 'Skins lose. Especially to the Cowboys.
2007-11-16 12:07:38
876.   dzzrtRatt
Rule 13 is the best rule of all the rules.

I wish it could apply to the entire Internet.

My message to all bloggers and blog commenters today is:

Things that were funny the first 100 times (charitably), are not funny the next 1,000,000 times. Come up with new stuff!

2007-11-16 12:08:31
877.   Bob Timmermann
There was a Cuban who played in the National Association in the 1870s and then there were no Latino players until the early 20th century. The Latino players still had to be white.

When the player in the photo in this link:
started playing for Washington in the 1930s, people complained because everyone said he was black.

2007-11-16 12:08:42
878.   bhsportsguy
874 I actually think that is one of those myths that perpetuate itself, now if you want to say ownership, perhaps though I just don't think it was Plaschke and Simers that got Paul DePodesta canned.

And outside of that, what has the media demanded that the McCourts or Ned have actually gone out and done.

Now, I think the paranoia is that the local media is of a win now philosophy but that kind of comes with the territory.

But unless I was sleeping for the last 4 years, the impact of media on the Dodgers has been very minimal if not non-existent.

2007-11-16 12:09:04
879.   fanerman
876 Does that message have to do with Rule 13? Actually, I'm now confused as to why Rule 13 is the one rule to rule them all.
2007-11-16 12:09:24
880.   Sam DC
870 You should give LAT a try.
2007-11-16 12:10:09
881.   capdodger
876 In Soviet Russia, New stuff comes up with YOU!!


2007-11-16 12:13:41
882.   KG16
877 - yeah, I guess it's my annoyance with a certain perception of what constitutes "Latin".
2007-11-16 12:14:13
883.   fanerman
878 I was referring to ownership. Probably should have been more specific. Of course I'm not sure (I did use the word "seem"), and it's probable that my massive dislike for Plaschkers and McCourt have biased me to such a conclusion, but I'm inclined to believe that DePo would have had a longer leash if Plaschkers shut their mouths or used their brains.
2007-11-16 12:14:59
884.   capdodger
879 Jon didn't want to write it because writing it down would have violated the rule itself, thereby causing a paradox. This might have lead to the collapse of the universe itself.

On the plus side, NedCo wouldn't have a chance to trade the kids.

2007-11-16 12:15:40
885.   Jon Weisman
872 - I wasn't going to bring it up, but Plaschke today assures us that Bud Selig will ban Bonds from baseball for life, which is simply not the case.

878 - I think, quite honestly, if Simers and Plaschke had taken the long view on DePodesta, he would not have been fired.

2007-11-16 12:18:09
886.   Bob Timmermann
I would respectfully disagree. I think the McCourts just fire people because they can and they will switch over to the first shiny object they encounter.

I've found that you don't even have to use coins. Gum wrappers from Wrigley's work too.

2007-11-16 12:18:57
887.   Greg Brock
Hit it, Nate.

Hit it like the fist of an angry god.

2007-11-16 12:21:20
888.   bhsportsguy
883 As I try to mainain my objectivity (which probably has no place on fan messageboards), I tend to try and see both sides but for the most part, I have never had big issues with the McCourts.

Bill Plaschke could give politicians lessons on seeing which way the wind is blowing and then going that way.

I recall a column this year where Plaschke had some type of checklist of complaints he had received about Dodger Stadium and he went there to see how they were being resolved and he came back with a quite favorable impression.

2007-11-16 12:21:43
889.   Bob Timmermann
What is considered "Latin" (or Latino or Hispanic) and who could or could not play major league baseball in the US has been problematic for a long time. Mainly because Americans have peculiar views of skin color and race.

In the early 20th Century, some players objected to Native Americans getting jobs on teams because they were viewed as "foreigners."

Seriously. Ed Delahanty was quoted as saying that.

I recommend "Playing America's Game" by Adrian Burgos on this topic.

From that book I learned that in the 1950s, some black players would affect an accent and pretend not to be able to speak English because they would be served in some restaurants in the South because they would serve "foreigners", but not blacks.

2007-11-16 12:21:51
890.   regfairfield
876 Thank you. I move to expand rule 13 to include the phrase "I just spat [drink] all over me keyboard." and all of its variants, such as "you owe me a new keyboard".

A possible exception may occur if you can prove you actually did do this.

2007-11-16 12:22:31
891.   derek22
we need some news...or a new bored
2007-11-16 12:25:53
892.   fiddlestick
848- I'm forever greatful to my grandfather who got me a copy of Big D's biography signed to me personally.
2007-11-16 12:26:06
893.   bhsportsguy
885 I don't think so because unlike us, they had no idea what was going on in Jacksonville that season, all they knew was that he let Beltre go, he traded LoDuca which probably got Gagne hurt, he brought in Mr. Sourpuss Kent and Mr. Injury Prone Drew along with a guy who fooled around with a married sportscaster. Not to mention he was younger and didn't glad hand them anyway.

Somehow, they were going to ignore that and take his word about some 3-4 year plan?

2007-11-16 12:26:24
894.   underdog
891 I beg to differ. No news is good, when it comes to the Dodgers, in my opinion. Three more months of this please!
2007-11-16 12:27:42
895.   derek22
can bud selig ban plashke and simer too while he is at it?
id like that alot.
2007-11-16 12:28:09
896.   bhsportsguy
889 The first time I went to DC, I was asked by several people, how much I liked America. But then they could have mistaken me for the Ambassador of Micronesia.
2007-11-16 12:28:14
897.   Jim Hitchcock
891 Sorry,'ll have to push the comments over 900 first.
2007-11-16 12:30:07
898.   derek22
894 touche

and is anybody else noticing that LaRoche is raking for the u.s. team right now?

i still say we keep all the youngins, sign Jones, trade pierre for a relief pitcher and pay some of his salary

2007-11-16 12:30:26
899.   ToyCannon
Jose Molina got 2 Million to backup Jorge Posada. What a gig.
Every time I see stuff like that I think of the players I grew up reading about in the 60's, living in nurses homes, trying to make it off their paltry pensions before Marvin Miller broke the chains of slavery.
2007-11-16 12:30:44
900.   Bob Timmermann
Has anyone told you that you have done a good job losing your accent? I have a friend of a similar age and background as you and she told me that someone asked that of her. She politely held her tongue at the time.
Show/Hide Comments 901-950
2007-11-16 12:31:04
901.   Jon Weisman
887 - Disturbing image, no?

885 - Look, there's no changing what their opinions of what DePo were. I'm saying if their opinions were positive, and DePo hadn't become a PR nightmare, I think he'd have gotten another year at least.

2007-11-16 12:31:13
902.   fanerman
888 My main gripe with the McCourts is their absurdly itchy trigger fingers on their "fire employee" button. Their actions suggest all they do is lust for the flavor of the month (This is speculation... Moneyball? Let's get that DePo guy. Moneyball isn't working? Let's get some old-fashioned blah blah blah. Media troubles? Let's also make sure the old-fashioned blah blah blah has a PR background).

886 Yes they do do that. But what they perceive as shiny seems to be what the media thinks is shiny.

2007-11-16 12:32:38
903.   Bob Timmermann
Delwyn Young is 2 for 19 in Taiwan though.
2007-11-16 12:33:36
904.   fanerman
901 I'm probably wishfully thinking, but perhaps if DePo had another year (and another playoff run), he'd have enough job security (thanks to kids and repeated playoff runs) to be able to sustain a decent tenure as GM.
2007-11-16 12:33:53
905.   ssjames
902 I just got an idea, what if we dipped Logan White in gold, then he would look even shinier than any other prospective GM and the McCourts would then have to immediately fire Ned and hire him as GM. What does everyone else think? Who has some gold that we can melt?
2007-11-16 12:35:13
906.   fanerman
893 Not take his word. Think it through and decide for themselves. DePo was pretty clear about what he was trying to do. Thinking is a bit too much to ask from them, though.
2007-11-16 12:37:25
907.   regfairfield
899 This is why you can't complain too much about the Yankees payroll. Two million for someone that could be easily replaced by a minor league free agent is insane.
2007-11-16 12:37:39
908.   derek22
all i picture is austin powers: gold member....
i love goooooooooooollddd
2007-11-16 12:37:53
909.   underdog
Never mind all this. I was just looking over the list of DVD releases for December and found one that should interest many DT-ers.

(yes, it's SFW.)

2007-11-16 12:37:54
910.   KG16
893 - and unfortunately, that's all most fans knew, myself included at the time.

I still think of the Lo Duca trade as being a mistake, not that Lo Duca shouldn't have been moved, but because of the timing of the deal. I'd have waited until the off season to make a deal, maybe we don't have Penny, but we are also saved the heartbreak of Ch-i (and the subsequent redemption of Loney).

2007-11-16 12:41:27
911.   Jon Weisman
909 - I got the press release yesterday and was invited to request a copy for review.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), I don't review films for Variety.

2007-11-16 12:42:57
912.   regfairfield
910 One of the main reasons given was that we didn't have enough pitching to advance in the playoffs.

It was pretty evident that DePo was right about that. It's funny how just three years ago Odalis, Weaver, and Lima were the playoff rotation for a team. Time sure flies in baseball.

2007-11-16 12:43:08
913.   Bluebleeder87
How do you guys feel about Honeycutt?

I'm glad Mariano Duncan is back though.

2007-11-16 12:43:10
914.   BlueCrew Bruin
909 Is that because of Ms. McKellar or because the title pertains to Mr. Plaschke? :)
2007-11-16 12:43:27
915.   D4P
R for strong horror violence and gore, nudity, sexuality, language and drug use

Which of those is Danica involved in?

2007-11-16 12:43:59
916.   bigcpa
909 Finally a Bill Plaschke biopic! Come on- William Forsythe doesn't look like him at all.
2007-11-16 12:44:46
917.   Benaiah
910 - I think history as shown that deal to be an unequivocal win for the Dodgers and it galls me that Plaschke hasn't admitted as much. His column this year that the Dodgers shouldn't trade the kids and then his immediate about face in the wake of "moving the trash can"-gate demonstrates how hacky and short term he is. I don't know who I dislike more, McCourt or Plaschke.
2007-11-16 12:45:48
918.   Robert Daeley
875 Speaking as a lifelong Cowboys fan, that makes me very happy. ;)
2007-11-16 12:46:04
919.   derek22
913 honeycutt is a cool name...

and yes keeping duncan was good. the bench coach was kinda out of left field i thought...not that the bench coach really matters but.

2007-11-16 12:46:20
920.   fanerman
910 I don't know how you could possibly be against that trade now. Penny continues to be a great pitcher and Lo Duca hasn't done too hot since then.
2007-11-16 12:46:55
922.   Penarol1916
917. McCourt, easily, what he does actually matters. For Palschke it is just ambivalent disdain, hating him would give him exactly what he wants.
2007-11-16 12:47:23
923.   regfairfield
921 Who do you think answers the phone?
2007-11-16 12:47:35
924.   fanerman
917 A short-sighted owner listening to a short-sighted sportswriter. That's my problem.

Disclaimer: it has not been proven how much the owner listens to the sportswriter.

2007-11-16 12:49:39
925.   KG16
912 - I get the reasoning behind it, but it still seemed strange to me. I remember picking up a copy of the Times on the way home from Vegas, reading about the trade.

Philosophically speaking, I don't believe in trading an every day player for a starting pitcher during the season. Plus, I think at the time, we had enough pitching to pull it off in the playoffs. But that's water under the bridge, as they say.

2007-11-16 12:50:56
926.   derek22
923 LOL


i always thought it that relief pitcher who never pitches an inning yet the coaches always act like they are torn between keeping 11 or 12 pitchers.

i thought he answered the phone....

2007-11-16 12:51:38
927.   fanerman
925 That season things didn't work. But we would not be as good as we are right now if that trade didn't happen.
2007-11-16 12:51:52
928.   Sam DC
921 Just fyi, stand ins for swearing are prohibited on this site along with the words themselves. (See Rule 1 down the sidebar.)
2007-11-16 12:52:32
929.   KG16
917 , 920 - not saying that the trade hasn't worked out better for the Dodgers, long term. But, short term, I think it cost them a chance at the pennant. I would have made a similar trade during the off season, granted, we might not have been able to get Penny, but still, just my philosophy as outline in 925
2007-11-16 12:52:35
930.   derek22
trades are also done (i hope) with long-term goals also...

cannot deny who got the better end of that deal.

2007-11-16 12:53:24
931.   fanerman
915 I am curious also. I hope not in any of the targets, actually. Frankly, I'm surprised to see Danica in this kind of movie at all. I thought she'd star in the sequel to "Pi."
2007-11-16 12:53:41
932.   underdog
911 That's cool. Then you can just watch it for your own pleasure (with the shades drawn).
2007-11-16 12:53:54
933.   Benaiah
922 - I would rather have someone other than McCourt have that job more than I want a replacement sports editorialist, but Plaschke is such an anachronism and symbol of all that is wrong with sports today that I can't help but loathe him. He is the personification of the Peter Principle, how in the world did he get promoted to his job? He can't write, doesn't know anything about sports, doesn't appear to have very good contacts (he doesn't break any stories), isn't funny and doesn't even have that knack for infamous self-promotion (like Jay Mariotti). He occasionally writes nice human interest stories, but that is about it.
2007-11-16 12:54:10
934.   Dodgers49
810 Bob, I ordered a copy of Midnight Librarians. If you'd like to check it out later let me know. :-)
2007-11-16 12:55:42
935.   fanerman
931 I think I meant to type topics when I typed targets. Actually I have no idea what noun I was thinking of.
2007-11-16 12:56:13
936.   Andrew Shimmin
If Zappala gets to be Nate's conscience, I'll be his brain stem: Call her, and then try to save her from her life of sin! Get married as soon as possible, so that she can have a couple of kids. That'll settle her down, and your life will be deliriously happy forever.
2007-11-16 12:56:17
937.   underdog
Apparently Danica plays the TA (teaching assistant!). More on the film here:

Okay, by the time I get back from lunch and a doc's appt, I expect this to be well over 1000 posts. Buena suerte.

2007-11-16 12:57:38
938.   D4P
"targets" confused me.
2007-11-16 12:58:30
939.   LAT
Not only did LoDuca fall off but Mota is a disaster. He was almost single-handly responsible for the Mets 2007 meltdown. The deal was a win for the Dogers. The only way it could have been better was if it were a year later after Penny recovered from his bad arm.
2007-11-16 12:59:15
940.   fanerman
"Sylvia Janowitz, a well-endowed foreign exchange student."

Sounds like she's involved in the Gauge-esque scenes.

Although "Johnny Vital" falls for Emily (Danica).

2007-11-16 12:59:37
941.   derek22
interesting stat...

we were 15th in HR's in the NL and 3rd in Slug%

2007-11-16 13:00:08
942.   fanerman
938 My sincerest apologies.
2007-11-16 13:00:15
943.   KG16
watching the trailer, I also notice that Juiliet Landau (aka Drusilla in the Whedon-verse) is in the cast. I might just have to find this flick now.
2007-11-16 13:01:22
944.   Penarol1916
933. Since I don't read the LA Times, it doesn't matter to me. Now, when I first moved to Chicago, Skip Bayless was the big sports columnist for the Tribune and Mariotti was the columnist for the Sun-Times, now that is horrible.

Am I the only one who thought that when Nate was talking about a dancer he was talking about a member of the Dance Squad for Arizona?

2007-11-16 13:01:24
945.   derek22
i got in trouble for typing wt* and yall are talkin about porn lol
2007-11-16 13:02:11
946.   D4P
Did "Hack!" go straight to DVD...?
2007-11-16 13:02:22
947.   Sam DC
945 Fair point. :)
2007-11-16 13:04:22
948.   natepurcell
I thought putting dancer in quotes would have given it away.
2007-11-16 13:04:30
949.   LogikReader

The "quotations" gave it away for me.

I'm so glad we're only talking about Nate's wild night and not something more dramatic from the Dodgers. Rowand scares me though.

2007-11-16 13:04:44
950.   capdodger
918 Meh. I'm a total NFL frontrunner, now. I pay attention to the good teams and root for good games.

Except for the Cowboys and Packers. They can burn. That's the latent 'Niner fan in me.

Show/Hide Comments 951-1000
2007-11-16 13:05:32
951.   derek22
"The Dodgers would be one of the teams Aaron would be most interested in playing for," Rowand's agent, Craig Landis said.


2007-11-16 13:05:51
952.   LogikReader
Now wait a minute... how about that? I wrote that before seeing Nate's response.
2007-11-16 13:06:50
953.   Jon Weisman
945 - Not that I'm encouraging the latter, but there's a reason for the former. Cursing can make an otherwise civil discussion uncivil. An occasional dose of sex talk tends to relax people.
2007-11-16 13:07:56
954.   derek22
well played sir
2007-11-16 13:07:57
955.   El Lay Dave
925 I don't believe in trading an every day player for a starting pitcher during the season.

As a counterexample, the 1988 World Series champion Dodgers traded Pedro Guerrero for John Tudor.

2007-11-16 13:08:49
956.   kinbote
LaRoche is knocking down the door. I love it! KNBR's reporting the Giants are becoming major players in the M. Cabrera sweepstakes, possibly offering Lincecum in a package. We don't need a 3B, so they or the Angels can have him.
2007-11-16 13:09:08
957.   Andrew Shimmin
From Mark Normandin's BP column today:

"Brad Penny presents an interesting issue as far as QERA is concerned, since the stat believes his 3.03 ERA was far off the mark from his true performance of 4.63. Looking at his peripherals, it's easy to see where the disconnect in true performance and ERA lies, as Penny only managed to strike out 5.8 hitters per nine while walking 3.2 for a pedestrian K/BB rate just under two to one, though his groundball rate of nearly 50 percent is obviously a plus. The peripheral that improved Penny's numbers the most was his very low home run rate, as he allowed just 0.4 per nine on the season. This number is a little deceiving though, as Penny did not allow a homer for the first two months of the season, and then had a HR/9 of 0.6 from June 3 onward. You would certainly take 0.6 HR/9 though, even if that entails fewer strikeouts.

"Penny changed his approach somewhat by relying more on groundballs—his G/F moved from 1.2 in '06 to 1.6 in '07—and his reliance on his sinker helped generate quicker outs and faster plate appearances by the opposition. This compensated for the dip in punchouts and the increase in free passes, and the drop in his home run rates also helped out. Even if Penny were to return to his former homer rates, he could probably manage an ERA in the threes for a team that's going to win games for him. He won't get you strikeouts like in years past, but he'll get outs and innings."

2007-11-16 13:09:41
958.   fanerman
Aaron Rowand is an disaster waiting to happen. Though, if Rowand replaces Pierre, that's okay.
2007-11-16 13:10:59
959.   Jon Weisman
You know, you guys ask what the bench coach does - but really, what does the first-base coach do?
2007-11-16 13:11:55
960.   KG16
956 - I'd prefer it be the Angels, the sports page aftermath of Miggy hitting the WS clinching homerun in a freeway series would be much more tolerable than the aftermath of him hitting the home run that causes the Dodgers to miss the playoffs.
2007-11-16 13:11:59
961.   Bob Timmermann
2007-11-16 13:12:03
962.   fanerman
958 The "d" in disaster is silent, so that sentence is grammatically correct. And I mean signing Rowand would be such an disaster. Not necessarily Rowand himself.

I'm going to eat lunch now. I think the lack of food is getting to me.

2007-11-16 13:12:26
963.   derek22
didnt we have the worste defense in the league?

doesnt that make his era and wins and what not even more impressive?

2007-11-16 13:13:42
964.   capdodger
959 Stopwatch work? Pointing out where the ball is as the player rounds first?
2007-11-16 13:14:20
965.   Sam DC
959 I think we went over this once. High fives and collecting batting armor seem to be high on the list of key duties.
2007-11-16 13:14:31
966.   derek22
the first base coach slaps the hitter on the butt as he runs the bases after a homerun.

and yells "back" on a pickoff attempt

2007-11-16 13:14:56
967.   Disabled List
955 The Dodgers won the title in 1988 despite that trade, not because of it.
2007-11-16 13:15:31
968.   derek22
oh and destroying players when they argue with the umpire a la milton bradley
2007-11-16 13:16:05
969.   LogikReader
Boy, you go to and you'd think there was a eulogy.

no tinyurl this time

2007-11-16 13:16:06
970.   Jon Weisman
For ToyCannon:

2007-11-16 13:17:29
971.   Greg Brock
The first base coach is supposed to get in fights with opposing pitchers.

Oh, wait. That's just ours. And Zimmer.

2007-11-16 13:18:13
972.   D4P
You know, you guys ask what the bench coach does - but really, what does the first-base coach do?

I love this growing support for my "eliminate superfluous managers and coaches" crusade.

2007-11-16 13:18:18
973.   KG16
955 - I always see them talking to the runner on first, I kind of wonder what the conversation is. It's not like you can lean over to the guy and say, "ok, we are going to hit and run on the second pitch" with the first baseman standing right there.
2007-11-16 13:18:28
974.   derek22
"This is a very sad day. For many years, Barry Bonds was an important member of our team and is one of the most talented baseball players of his era. These are serious charges. Now that the judicial process has begun, we look forward to this matter being resolved in a court of law. " --Giants

For some reason that being quoted by "--Giants" made me lol

2007-11-16 13:19:55
975.   LogikReader
TC, et al

Can the Clippers have the Clipper Spirit Girls mob me when I nail a halftime half court shot?

2007-11-16 13:21:17
976.   derek22
955 we actually want to know what the bullpen coach does...other than answering phones.

we already discovered that the bench coach wakes up the manager.

and bobs and weaves a la the braves bench coach...

speaking of wierd coach things...dusty baker's tongue thing he does is nasty

2007-11-16 13:21:36
977.   KG16
hmmm, there is this to solve the first base coach enigma...

2007-11-16 13:22:37
978.   natepurcell
Has anyone heard of Insight, the IT solutions company? They want to bring me to their corporate headquarters and wine and dine me.
2007-11-16 13:24:31
979.   derek22
first base coach jobs
1. Communicate Clearly
2. Be Animated & Loud
3. Make Snap Decisions
4. Encourage Aggressive Play
2007-11-16 13:25:07
980.   natepurcell
Would the first base coach be the least important of all the coaches?
2007-11-16 13:26:26
981.   derek22
i think the bullpen coach is..
but grady little was pretty unimportant.
2007-11-16 13:26:38
982.   LogikReader
I'd be stoked if the First Base coach could serve Gatorade.
2007-11-16 13:27:33
983.   derek22
see jeter is not payin his taxes haha
2007-11-16 13:27:52
984.   Dodgers49
Another free agent hits the market:

Pirates Decline Option On Izturis

2007-11-16 13:27:56
985.   natepurcell

Picking up the phone in the bullpen seems more important than yelling "BACK!!"

2007-11-16 13:29:50
986.   ToyCannon
Yeah, It was very cool. The backward over the head shot seems to be the way to go. A guy used that same method to make a 1/2 court shot to win a car either last year or the year before. Time is blurred.

The girls look hotter on TV then close up. Not saying I'd say no to any of them but when your 5 feet away the imperfections show up. It also makes you wonder why woman in their mid 20's are dancing at basektball games. There is one new Spirit brunette who appears to have zero imperfections. I would need to get closer to really make a final determination. We may need to bring in Nate to find out for sure as I don't think I'll ever get closer then 5 feet.

2007-11-16 13:31:12
987.   Marty
2007-11-16 13:31:25
988.   Bob Timmermann
Insight sponsors a bowl game. They must be an upstanding company.
2007-11-16 13:31:42
989.   ToyCannon
Not anymore.
2007-11-16 13:32:19
990.   derek22
too bad they don't use the guillotine as punishment for perjury...
2007-11-16 13:32:58
991.   KG16
986 - I'm closer to the Staples Center than Nate, so I'll take the chance on looking for imperfections. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it, right?
2007-11-16 13:33:39
992.   derek22
there are like at least 6 other people in the bullpen to answer the phone...
only one guy by first base
2007-11-16 13:34:33
993.   derek22
991 take pics
2007-11-16 13:34:54
994.   Sagehen
Trying to be #1000 here ...

Don't most teams have a hitting coach doubling as the firstbase coach?

2007-11-16 13:35:16
995.   natepurcell

yea, them.

Apparently the dot com has been banished from their name.

2007-11-16 13:35:36
996.   Jon Weisman
New post
2007-11-16 13:35:41
997.   still bevens
978 My friend Marisa works for Insight. Well, at least she used to. She now works for the third party she used to be the rep for at Insight. She never had any bad things to say about it. It also seems like they were constantly having happy hours with free booze, so its got that going for it.
2007-11-16 13:36:10
998.   Jon Weisman
2007-11-16 13:36:11
999.   Jacob L
992 But if the dugout ever called and got the answering machine ... heck to pay.

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