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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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4) arguing for the sake of arguing
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Flux Capacitors
2007-11-16 16:00
by Jon Weisman

From Ken Gurnick at

Dodgers fans alarmed by the names and numbers of prospects demanded in return for a slugger like Miguel Cabrera are not alone. Ned Colletti sounds alarmed, too.

"Any player that you would consider a middle-of-the-order bat, a run producer, as predicted, the cost of the prospects going back, at least in our minds, far exceeds the value of the player," the Dodgers general manager said Friday. "It's not one prospect, it's not two prospects, but in some cases it's three or four prospects. And our prospects are no longer prospects. They are big league players that continue to get asked about. ...

"We're still on a mission to try to find it and cure it," Colletti said of an upgrade. "If that fails, we'll try to improve the club, even if it means the 25th man or the last pitcher. Right now, trade-wise, its a lot of bait-and-switch. We thought we had a deal the other day, but they got cold feet at the end." ...

Colletti's idea of what constitutes improvement still concerns me. (And no, he didn't elaborate on what that trade would have been.) But you can't say (for once?) there aren't signs of an awareness of what he has.

* * *

A year ago, after J.D. Drew opted out of his Dodger contract, Colletti was left with outfield options consisting primarily of Marlon Anderson, Andre Ethier, Matt Kemp, Jason Repko, Jayson Werth (injured throughout 2006) and James Loney. (Remember, until his June mashup with the right-field wall, Loney was a contender to play outfield.) Though a number of people would have been happy to choose from this group, none of them had played a full season as a starting major-league outfielder.

With that in mind, Colletti signed Juan Pierre. (The anniversary of that signing will be Tuesday.) Even then, it was doubtful that Pierre deserved a starting spot on the Dodgers. But Colletti valued his speed, experience, durability and ability to aggregate.

Flash forward to the present. Werth and Anderson are gone. Luis Gonzalez has come and gone. Loney is a first baseman for the rest of his life. The in-house outfield options are Ethier, Kemp, Pierre, Repko (in the Werth lost-year role), Delwyn Young and Andy LaRoche (in the Loney flights-of-position-switching-fancy role).

Ethier and Kemp are better than Pierre in no-contest fashion. Even factoring in Pierre's speed, Ethier boasts an EQA of .267, .019 higher than Pierre. The difference between Kemp and Pierre is too big to see without Cinemascope. Almost any other major-league outfielder, given Pierre's opportunities, would do more with them.

Right now, even without a new acquisition, it is a fair question to ask whether Pierre deserves to be the third outfielder in the starting lineup – particularly so if the Dodgers decide Kemp is their center fielder. You can't hide Young or LaRoche in center, but you could hide them in left if you had a mind to.

However, should the Dodgers sign a free-agent outfielder, it raises questions about Pierre's future in Los Angeles. In no way should one play Pierre in left field ahead of Ethier, let alone Kemp.

So if Colletti signs a free-agent outfielder, here are his options:

1) Trade Kemp for a big prize.
2) Trade Ethier for a smaller prize.
3) Trade Pierre for a booby prize.
4) Keep 'em all.

There's a belief out there that Pierre could never be benched or traded – a belief underscored by the Dodgers' refusal to not rest him once in the second half of 2007. But that was then. Colletti has bigger concerns than saving face on his mistaken Pierre signing – namely, saving his job. And for all of the talk of Colletti not wanting to give in on the Pierre signing for image reasons, why would he want to give up Ethier, whose acquisition is considered by many to be one of his highpoints?

Perhaps that leaves Kemp as the most likely trade option – but frankly, there aren't that many available trades outside of Miguel Cabrera or Johan Santana that Kemp could be included in – because he's too good to go for someone lesser.

We don't know what's going to happen, but I wouldn't rule anything out – not even the Dodgers showing up at Spring Training with Kemp, Ethier, Pierre and a free-agent outfielder, with Ethier (and to a lesser extent, Young and Repko) making bids to cut into Pierre's playing time.

In that case, Pierre will be the incumbent, just like Nomar Garciaparra will be the incumbent over Andy LaRoche at third base. And Pierre still might not be perceived as a problem offensively to Colletti, even if he so obviously is. At the same time, as shown by the disposals of players like Brett Tomko and Danys Baez, as evidenced by Pierre potentially being deposed from center field, even Colletti has his limits. Pierre isn't untouchable.

Comments (390)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-11-16 16:18:45
1.   El Lay Dave
D'oh, I was LATed! But it applies here:

Nice Torre quote in the new Gurnick article cited above:

"Right now, we're looking to see what we can do offensively," he said. "And any time you can add quality pitching to your staff, you do it. I don't know if there are any gaping holes from what I've heard. I'm more familiar with the names of our guys, the Kemps and [Andy] LaRoches and Loneys."

(Please forgive the guy the use of the plural names.)

2007-11-16 16:19:13
2.   bhsportsguy
So lets talk about the 5th starter.

Okay, I will step away except to say that no one was more surprised than me how good a movie Back to Future was when I first saw it over 20 years ago at the AVCO in Westwood.

2007-11-16 16:19:34
3.   Daniel Zappala
Pierre isn't untouchable.

Music to my ears. I love the case you're making. Even if he doesn't exist.

2007-11-16 16:20:15
4.   Daniel Zappala
(Please forgive the guy the use of the plural names.)


2007-11-16 16:22:43
5.   D4P
In that case, Pierre will be the incumbent, just like Nomar Garciaparra will be the incumbent over Andy LaRoche at third base

I would think incumbency would mean at least ever-so-slightly less to a new manager than to an incumbent skipper.

2007-11-16 16:23:38
6.   MikeB
If Ned is now heading in the direction of signing a free agent CF, and perhaps Joe is leaning towards a Nomar/La Roche combo at 3B, which of the three CF's (Rowand, Hunter, Jones) would be the ideal fit for the home team? Is there a consensus yet? My preference in order are Jones, Rowand, Hunter.
2007-11-16 16:26:20
7.   blue22
I mentioned this last night, but I really believe this Pierre-to-left idea reminds me of the day the club admitted "Nomar will start taking grounders at third" when it had finally become painfully obvious that Loney was the man. It's almost as if the Dodgers can't just out-and-out bench a big name veteran. They have to slowly ease the idea in, in a way that recalls the old punchline "Grandma's on the roof and we can't get her down".

Ned might not be able to move from "5-year-contract, starts 162 games in centerfield" to "5th outfielder on the bench" in one swift effort. It might take him 3 or 4 demotions to get there, but it's the destination that's important, not the journey.

2007-11-16 16:26:57
8.   KG16
1 - wait, we've got another Kemp, LaRoche, and Loney somewhere? Sweet baby Jesus!
2007-11-16 16:27:04
9.   blue22
6 - For me, it's Cameron, Jones, Rowand, Hunter.
2007-11-16 16:27:54
10.   LogikReader
Cameron would be OK, provided that he costs less than the other three.
2007-11-16 16:28:51
11.   blue22
10 - That's the primary factor. 2 or 3 years, $8M per.

The other 3 are going to be 4 to 6 years, $13-15M per.

2007-11-16 16:32:50
12.   bigcpa
I'm pretty sure Kemp will out hit all of the above in the next 3 years other than Jones. If you sign Cameron/Hunter then trade Kemp for pitching you really haven't upgraded the offense. This offense was 14th in the NL in OPS+. I refuse to go gaga over Johan or Bedard without a net gain on offense.
2007-11-16 16:33:35
13.   Greg Brock
Get Cameron out of PetCo and he could be something.

On a two-year deal, I could live with it.

2007-11-16 16:34:27
14.   underdog
Andruw Jones is the only FA outfielder I'd be happy to see on the Dodgers. I think his year last year was an anomaly, but, yes, he's darned expensive. Better than losing "prospects" though. Cameron, I dunno, I have no faith in him having much left in the tank, never mind all the strikeouts but he sure is more fun to watch man centerfield than youknowwho.

Man, Jason Repko's gotta be checking out housing listings in other cities right about now...

2007-11-16 16:39:16
15.   KG16
It's funny, watching ESPN the last couple of days and the fall of Shaq, I can't even begin to imagine what the Times Sports page would be like if the Lakers kept Shaq and let Kobe go. Or if they managed to keep both.

You think Trashcangate has been trouble...

2007-11-16 16:40:47
16.   LogikReader

Actually I have to agree. As much as I hated the trade at the time, the Lakers are much better off the way they are now than they would be if Shaq was still a Laker.

Yes even as they are the Lakers are still better off. Big game vs the Pistons tonight!

2007-11-16 16:44:15
17.   Jon Weisman
7 - I'd agree with that, but when Nomar went to third, there wasn't a player of Ethier's caliber (at least in Little or Colletti's mind) challenging for the job. Conversely, I don't think Pierre moving to left is necessarily a vote of no confidence from Colletti in his offense.

I just think there's mystery about the move still, and I'm not sure the analogy tracks.

But yes, every little chink in the armor probably helps.

2007-11-16 16:45:56
18.   kngoworld
15 16
Shaq won a championship a little over a year ago. Wouldnt the Lakers rather be in that camp, then the position they are in now? They are likely trading Kobe within the next year.
2007-11-16 16:46:34
19.   thinkblue0

You're right, but we're not better off.

We managed to trade Shaq and get POUNDED by Grant's contract, and then Odom and Butler. Of course, then Butler was shipped for Kwame who might be the worst starting center in basketball.

NBA Gm's seem to not be able to work their own sport's salary cap. How do you trade a dominant (at the time) Shaq and not even get an all star back?

2007-11-16 16:46:45
20.   Jacob L
I wouldn't put Pierre in left on my softball team. I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from that. I just wouldn't.
2007-11-16 16:48:33
21.   kngoworld
In a year from now, I would much rather have an aging and very slow Shaq over the pieces we get from trading Kobe. He will always be a presence under the basket and he is very easy to build a team around.
2007-11-16 16:50:27
22.   LogikReader

I'm not convinced. He's had numerous injury problems, conditioning problems, motivational problems, and a big mouth lately. I love Shaq like a brother, but to pay nearly 30 mil a year for an aging player...?

2007-11-16 16:51:13
23.   LogikReader
Kobe doesn't appear to be on the trading block, so long as he insists on having his cake and eating it too. Both parties may be wising up.
2007-11-16 16:51:26
24.   Jon Weisman
20 - Pierre would be a great softball addition, at least where I played. His arm would be much less of a factor, and his speed would really matter.
2007-11-16 16:53:43
25.   kngoworld
Shaq has been in much better shape the last two years in Miami then he was his last 3 years in LA. The guy is going through some major off the court problems with his soon to be ex-wife. Lets see how he looks in a few more months. Everyone knows the real Shaq does not arrive until the playoffs. They will make the playoffs, despite this early slump. The East is that weak.
2007-11-16 16:54:11
26.   jasonungar07
To me trading Shaq was the right thing to do but trading him for those players was the wrong thing to do.
2007-11-16 16:56:11
27.   jasonungar07
Strike that. The right thing to do was to get those two players to understand how special they have it and to check their ego at the door and make a bunch more rings happen.
2007-11-16 16:56:29
28.   SG6
19 - The Worst Starting Center in Basketball did hold Tim Duncan to 5 points in a loss.

He's doing a fine job defensively - see Yao Mings shooting percentage from the other night - hence his starting role.

2007-11-16 16:57:04
29.   kngoworld
23 Just because Kobe doesnt appear to be on the block right now, does not mean he wont be traded within a year. This Laker team is not championship quality. Kobe knows this and if the time comes, he will opt out of his contract. The Lakers' brass should know this. They will obviously want something in return for losing him. They will need to trade him in order to save some face.
2007-11-16 16:58:00
30.   Benaiah
Replacing Pierre with Andruw Jones and then standing pat would be my dream offseason. I can barely stand to dream it because it has taken me a year to finally reach "acceptance" with Pierre. Once Laroche reaches the lineup 1-8 would be above average and Martin-Kemp-Loney-Jones-Kent-Laroche might be quite a bit above average.
2007-11-16 16:58:28
31.   KG16
18 /19 - Shaq won his championship in Miami because he was finally willing to pass the torch to a great guard. If he'd have been able to do that with Kobe, it might have turned out differently.

And yes, the Shaq trade was bad, mainly because I think Kupcheck panicked and took the first nominally decent trade he could get. The Butler trade was likely needed, the Lakers were overstocked at the 3, but Brown was a bad pick up. Though, I suspect most recognized that Shaq was about to fall off pretty quickly if he didn't change his approach.

To tie it into the Dodgers, it's bad player evaluation and dealing by the GM.

2007-11-16 17:01:59
32.   Marty
a belief underscored by the Dodgers' refusal to not start him once in the second half of 2007.

Jon, I think you mean not bench

2007-11-16 17:04:22
33.   bigcpa
30 Totally agree with you unless Florida bites on a LaRoche/Pierre/McDonald/$$ type package.
2007-11-16 17:05:08
34.   thinkblue0

Duncan had a bad game. It happens. I'm in no way attributing it to Kwame Brown.

The bottom line is that Kwame makes about 4 times what he should make. Do you realize if Mitch didn't pick up his option we would have had 9 million dollars to spend on a GOOD player?

That's the entire problem with the NBA. You make one dumb signing, and it completely hinders the ability to get more help...which is why we're having this kobe problem in the first place.

2007-11-16 17:07:24
35.   bhsportsguy
Even before the salary cap, trading "franchise" basketball players and getting anything close to value may be the most difficult thing to do in sports because basketball is the one sport that one player can affect every game, different than football and baseball.

1. Wilt traded from San Francisco Warriors to Sixers, Sixers win title, Warrrior do win a title (10 years later) but mostly are not a challenger for the next 40 years.

2. Wilt traded from Sixers to Lakers, Lakers go to 4 finals in 5 years winning their first title in Los Angeles, in Wilt's last year with the Lakers, Sixers set all time wores regular season record.

3. Kareem traded from Bucks to Lakers, Lakers, though it takes a while do ultimately win 5 titles with a lot of help, Bucks have not made the Finals since the trade.

4. Shaq signed FA contract, Magic still has not recoverd, Lakers won 3 titles in a row.

5. Shaq dealt from Lakers to Heat, Heat win title, Lakers end up in lottery and two first round exits.

The requirements regarding salary matches in trades have made them even more difficult to get value since the team dealing the franchise player usually has to get back a lot guys to get close to the salary figure.

If the Celtics win a title with KG, will whatever Minnesota got for him be considered equal value?

2007-11-16 17:08:07
36.   thinkblue0

That would be amazing. The fact that Colletti said they thought they had a deal and then went on to mention how he didn't want to give up 3 or 4 players leads me to believe the deal wasn't the catastrophic Kershaw, Laroche, Kemp, Loney type deal.

But we'll never really know.

2007-11-16 17:09:45
37.   bhsportsguy
31 The hard lesson learned in the Shaq situation is to let him go when the deal ends even if you get nothing.

That is a concept that is really hard for NBA GMs to consider which is why you see these apparent one-sided deals get made.

2007-11-16 17:09:59
38.   Benaiah
33 - Hard to see that happening, but if it did... I don't think I would trade more than Laroche-McDonald-Ethier-Hu. Four players, maybe not all future superstars but that is a big trade both ways. If somehow Ethier could be replaced with Pierre and cash then so much the better.
2007-11-16 17:10:22
39.   thinkblue0

The requirements regarding salary matches in trades have made them even more difficult to get value since the team dealing the franchise player usually has to get back a lot guys to get close to the salary figure.

exactly. Since you can't get full value, you just get ALL expiring contracts so that you may be giving up a year, but you come back with a ton of cap room.

That was the problem with the Shaq trade. If they couldn't get a bonafide all star, they should have dealt him for the scrap pile of expiring contracts so that we could build around Kobe. Instead, they made an extremely poor move that has ruined the cap until this day...

2007-11-16 17:11:55
40.   Jon Weisman
32 - LOL, I guess so :)
2007-11-16 17:15:16
41.   jasonungar07
Are you guys cool with our starting 5? I am a bit worried About Schmidt (good movie BTW)
2007-11-16 17:16:41
42.   ToyCannon
Juan Pierre would be the best softball player in Santa Monica. Give him an Alum bat and the pitcher would be in danger.

I've played with one guy who made it to AA and had double vision. He lead my Culver City team to several championships before moving back home. He played HS football with Roger Craig of 49r fame. He was incredible, easily the best hitter in the league and he didn't get past AA.

I played two games with this guy
He was only a pitcher and in two games he probably hit 6 home runs and had the best arm I ever played catch with.

Some of you probably fancy yourself good ballplayers. The difference between being a good HS player and a major league players is night and day, even one with a poor arm. To say you wouldn't put Juan Pierre in LF on a softball team is about the most ignorant statement I've ever read here.

2007-11-16 17:17:43
43.   derek22
the scary part with that was, they didnt make that move on Loney's big play, they made it on Garciaparra's poor play...

Loney played like he always had been, and i think if Nomar had played well they would have kept putting loney in th OF regardless of the terrible 3B play.

2007-11-16 17:20:00
44.   KG16
The other problem is that the NBA system is designed to keep elite players with their respective teams. A free agent's former team can resign him for more than anyone else; the matching salary requirement; sign and trade deals; etc.

I don't think any GM has managed to master the system yet.

The Lakers have the additional problem of having a GM who might be in over his head.

2007-11-16 17:20:06
45.   Lexinthedena
Saw a blurb on about the Dodgers being interested in Rowand.....

I only approve if it means the end of Pierre in L.A.....other than that, I would rather the Giants take him...

2007-11-16 17:21:27
46.   derek22
21 even dwayne wade has been bashing shaq recently....
he is no more of a presence that bynum right now..
and we would be much better off with caron butler right now...
ugh. and kobe didnt run shaq out...shaq said him or me and they said ok him.
2007-11-16 17:24:58
47.   Robert Fiore
George Santayana said, "A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim."

One might phrase this differently as, "A fanatic is one who starts Juan Pierre in left field."

2007-11-16 17:25:10
48.   derek22
25 those shaq bashing wade is givin out is about his conditioning and the shape he is in, and his lack of work to fix it.

and they support players around shaq/wade was way better than what was around shaq/kobe. thats where the championship came in.
and the lakers are in the same boat.
recent championships i mean.

2007-11-16 17:28:43
49.   Bob Timmermann
Dennis Dixon is officially out for the season for Oregon. He will be having knee surgery.

UCLA will get to face Brady Leaf, who plays like his big brother did in the NFL.

2007-11-16 17:29:55
50.   Linkmeister
I once put our best player at shortstop in softball, despite the fact he was lefthanded. He was 6 years younger than everyone else, could hit light years ahead of everyone else, and could field better than anyone else.

There was no danger of us turning a double-play in that millenium, so we thought he could help us most right there.

We were pretty much right.

I'd take Pierre over anyone we had in the outfield, including good ol' Ralph the satcom guy, who had an absolute cannon in right field.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-11-16 17:30:15
51.   bhsportsguy
49 And you won't be there to see it.
2007-11-16 17:30:25
52.   underdog
47 How many bunt redoubles did Pierre hit last year? I wonder.
2007-11-16 17:31:59
53.   underdog
Wow, are the Giants really dangling Tim Lincecum in trades? More power to... us, if they do. Fine by me. I'm sure they'd prefer to trade Noah Lowry but can't get as much in return for him. But still, wow, Lincecum?
2007-11-16 17:33:15
54.   Greg Brock
53 Are you really that surprised?
2007-11-16 17:34:05
55.   bhsportsguy
50 years ago, I played on a coed softball team. Our shortstop was the daughter of someone I worked with and she could hit the ball and field the position as good as anyone in the league.

Personally, the first tip off would have been the fact that she played shortstop but always in that first at-bat, the outfield would creep in and bang a homer, bang another homer.

2007-11-16 17:34:42
56.   silverwidow
(Remember, until his April mashup with the right-field wall, Loney was a contender to play outfield.)

I think Jon mixed-up Kemp crashing into the wall on opening day and Loney doing the same thing in June.

2007-11-16 17:34:52
57.   Bob Timmermann
Yep, I have to work. On what is traditionally the busiest day of the year in public libraries, the Saturday after Thanksgiving. Libraries fill up with college students from all over the country back home to visit the folks and then coming in expecting to find all their academic databases available at the public library or wondering why their Cornell ID card doesn't grant them privileges.
2007-11-16 17:35:09
58.   underdog
54 No, tickled more like. Cain's being dangled too. Wheee!
2007-11-16 17:36:28
59.   bhsportsguy
57 Somehow I find that hard to believe but it was written with such conviction that some of it must be true.
2007-11-16 17:37:29
60.   bhsportsguy
56 Jon is still having a hard time believing that Loney did not see Dodger Stadium until June.
2007-11-16 17:43:08
61.   Andrew Shimmin
Tony Blair is ten Cadillacs, a diamond mill, some BBQ, and fifty chicks not over twenty-two away from being Ray Charles.

2007-11-16 17:43:49
62.   Linkmeister
Interesting experiment in journalism going on here:

2007-11-16 17:44:16
63.   Bob Timmermann
Trust me, it's busy. I'd use a metaphor that my father liked it, but like most of my dad's metaphors it involves a Rule 1 violation.
2007-11-16 17:48:50
64.   derek22
fathers are cool like that
2007-11-16 17:49:53
65.   Bob Timmermann
Or in my case, I had a father who grew up on a farm.
2007-11-16 17:51:05
66.   dsfan
If all the Dodgers did was sign Andruw to a short-term deal and work the bargain bin for middle relievers and a No. 5 starter (Prior?), it'd be a great offseason.

Offer Andruw one year at $20 million. He'll probably bounce back and return an OPS-plus of 110-125. That's in line with what he usually does. You're buying 25-35 more home runs than you got from your CF last year. You're buying a CF whose throwing arm is far more of a deterrent than your CF last year. You're getting a 30-year-old whose overall defense led all CFs in 2007, according to the Fielding Bible. Dodgers pitchers would be very, very happy. And you don't have to give up a draft pick to get him.

Even if Andruw is no better than he was last year, he'd sill be considerably better than what the Dodgers got out of the position last year. And i has a big year and Boras wants a billion for him, you can let him go and get two draft picks for him.

Why would Andruw say yes to a one-year deal? The market for CFs probably won't be as crowded next year. So if he has his typical season, his leverage should be very strong. He'd also get to stay in the NL, and Dodger Stadium certainly is a fair ballpark for a power hitter.

Wonder if Furcal and he are buds, and if Furcal is selling the Dodgers/Andruw on a move West.

Plan B in CF would be a one-year offer to Cameron for $11 million. Pierre could hold the job until Cameron's suspension ends. If Pierre miraculously shows he can get on base at a .370 clip, then he slides to LF.

2007-11-16 17:53:06
67.   Bob Timmermann
Andy LaRoche's 3 for 4 game against Panama no longer counts. The game was forfeited (the US had won anyway) and under international rules, no stats count.

In case you were scoring at home.

2007-11-16 17:56:03
68.   thinkblue0
and they support players around shaq/wade was way better than what was around shaq/kobe.

are you serious? Those Laker teams were built REALLY well...I think you're forgetting about guys like Fisher, Ron Harper, Horry, etc.

2007-11-16 17:59:49
69.   derek22
yes when they won the championships.
i am talking about what they would have had if shaq stayed.

keep up

2007-11-16 18:01:48
70.   Jacob L
To say you wouldn't put Juan Pierre in LF on a softball team is about the most ignorant statement I've ever read here.

I'll take it as a sign that we've been around the block too many times on the Pierre issue that anyone could think that I actually meant that. Tongue was in cheek.

2007-11-16 18:04:11
71.   Bob Timmermann
But you somehow managed to mention Cal's 2004 season without setting off the Eric Enders alarm.
2007-11-16 18:04:26
72.   thinkblue0

I just re-read what you wrote in 48, and it still makes no sense.

2007-11-16 18:07:13
73.   thinkblue0

It's really not a bad idea of Jones would go for it. If he stinks up the joint, you're off the hook. If he's great, we get two picks for him and we aren't giving picks up to get him.

The offense would really really offset Slappy.

2007-11-16 18:11:08
74.   derek22
72 when shaq left, the support players on the lakers were not as good as the support player on the heat.
2007-11-16 18:18:45
75.   derek22
how many of you wanna bet Boras rigged the whole jeter-tax scandal?
jeter lives in a state with no taxes, no wonder he didnt pay them....
2007-11-16 18:19:26
76.   Indiana Jon
53 That is worse than us dangling Kemp or Billingsley?
2007-11-16 18:26:26
77.   thinkblue0

Didn't you hear? We're in denial about that.

2007-11-16 18:26:53
78.   Greg Brock
Cabrera to the Giants would be the deepest cut of all.

I don't think my love could survive it.

2007-11-16 18:34:22
79.   Bluebleeder87
I got this ugly feeling in my tummy when I read NedCo wanted Aaron Rowand in Dodger blue, I don't know man, if he gets him my neutral leanings towards him will be non-existent!
2007-11-16 18:37:56
80.   thinkblue0

I'm okay with it if they feel like giving up Lincecum and Cain.

2007-11-16 18:40:01
81.   Dark Horse
76-Where exactly was it proposed the Dodgers were "dangling" either player? They aren't, clearly they aren't, and clearly other teams want them, hence the names keep coming up. But that's not the same thing as dangling anyone.

I'm sure neither Lincecum nor Cain is going anywhere except for Santana, Cabrera etc. Pity. Really the Giants are going to stink either way, so it's nothing to get riled about.

2007-11-16 18:46:51
82.   Indiana Jon
81 You have a point on Billingsley, but it's been suggested since then end of the season that Kemp is being "dangled". Now that's not the same as hearing a direct quote from the Dodgers that they are shopping him, but these rumors don;t come from nowhere. Or maybe I'm just paranoid that Coletti will trade the teams best player.
2007-11-16 19:02:15
83.   derek22
would you object to signing Rowand if the odd man out is Pierre?


2007-11-16 19:10:26
84.   Bluebleeder87

In my mind it's A.Jones or bust. Anything else is just bad IMO.

2007-11-16 19:10:34
85.   Jon Weisman
56 - Two corrections in this post now. Thanks.

82 - Regardless of whether it's true in the case of Kemp, make no mistake - these rumors can be completely invented. Really important that this is understood.

2007-11-16 19:12:54
86.   Benaiah
82 - Ned would be crazy to trade Billingsley. If Billz was a free agent right now he would get paid 15 million a year for 5 or 6 years. There aren't any replacement starting pitchers of that quality out there. Brad Penny or Derek Lowe would be the best starters on the market if they were free agents this offseason.
2007-11-16 19:13:34
87.   derek22
85 i agree, but all is not lost in any scenario where pierre is replaced by a better player and we keep our young studs
2007-11-16 19:14:44
88.   derek22
which is why Ned is also shopping for a top tier starting pitcher, and also why i dont think he will trade Billz
2007-11-16 19:17:43
89.   Johnny Nucleo
63 "The rain is comin' down harder than a cow [urinating] on a rock" has got some use in my household. Thanks Bob.
2007-11-16 19:19:28
90.   Benaiah
88 - Who? Johan? I don't see how you get Johan (for one year) without trading a replacement pitcher you have for several years. Johan is still the best pitcher in the game, but one year with him is worth less than than 5 or 6 with Billingsley.
2007-11-16 19:22:45
91.   derek22
there are others, Bedard has been mentioned.
but i also said i dont think he will trade billz, which obviously means both would be in the rotation. :)
2007-11-16 19:23:59
92.   derek22
also i dont think they would make a trade for Johan without getting his contract extended, especially if they are giving up a someone such as Billz or Kershaw.
2007-11-16 19:27:16
93.   Bob Timmermann
That's was one of my dad's "go to" phrases.
2007-11-16 19:28:05
94.   Benaiah
All I can think of is a 2009 rotation of Billingsley, Penny, Kershaw, one of Schmidt/Kuo/McDonald and one of Sabathia/Sheets/Santana.
2007-11-16 19:32:19
95.   gpellamjr
85 Jon, I think you need to change it back. They didn't refuse not to rest him. They refused to rest him. I think you had it right the first time.
2007-11-16 19:35:22
96.   Bob Timmermann
Since this is a blog and not a wiki, I have lost track of what was written the first time. I think it's better that way.
2007-11-16 19:43:06
97.   D4P
I hate the word "wiki".
2007-11-16 19:43:52
98.   derek22
do you think anyone would take Pierre & Ned, for a minor league relief pitcher and $$$?

then we could sign Jones or another CF, and make Kim Ng our GM

2007-11-16 19:44:25
99.   Bob Timmermann
Then never fly to Honolulu and have to change planes and go to a different terminal.
2007-11-16 19:44:41
100.   derek22
i meant pierre, ned, & $$$ for a minor lg reliever. woops
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-11-16 19:45:01
101.   gpellamjr
96 That is the most ignorant thing I've ever read on this blog.

And this is a blog on which D4P and Andrew Shimmin post regularly.

2007-11-16 19:45:47
102.   derek22


2007-11-16 19:47:45
103.   Bluebleeder87

If NedCo screws things up just enough, we may well be the first franchise to have a chick running the show.

2007-11-16 19:48:33
104.   trainwreck
Most progressive post ever.
2007-11-16 19:48:51
105.   Bluebleeder87
the word ignorant if being tossed around very freely today...
2007-11-16 19:48:56
106.   Bob Timmermann
I guess the word "wiki" brings out suppressed emotions.
2007-11-16 19:50:08
107.   derek22
that would be something....other gms wouldnt know what hit them....too bad she looks like a boy, we should hire a babe to negotiate for us... dudes will do anything for a pretty girl.... we'd have more supertalent players than the yanks and the lowest payroll in the league.. THAT would be *Money*ball.
2007-11-16 19:50:44
108.   gpellamjr
106 Bob, have I ever suppressed my feelings about you?
2007-11-16 19:52:04
109.   derek22
i wonder how tom cruise would do as a GM?

he did alright as an agent...he showed us the money anyways

2007-11-16 19:52:05
110.   derek22
i wonder how tom cruise would do as a GM?

he did alright as an agent...he showed us the money anyways

2007-11-16 19:52:35
111.   derek22
woops ^^^^
2007-11-16 19:53:01
112.   Bluebleeder87
Honorable mention since he was my favorite Dodger short stop in resent times [ ] The little Izzy that could.
2007-11-16 19:56:01
113.   derek22
wow... Izzy is only 27? thought he was about 30 by now...seems like such a long time ago he was roamin our infield.
2007-11-16 19:57:18
114.   Sam DC
112 "resent times" -- another of those typose that's too good to be true. :)
2007-11-16 20:01:37
115.   derek22
i think all times are "resent times" with the dodgers these days

im getting on/starting the Repko at CF bandwagon right now....i mentioned some yesterday but im making it official now.

2007-11-16 20:08:12
116.   derek22
i found a copy of Moneyball in the bottom of a drawer at work..should i read it?
2007-11-16 20:15:54
117.   Louis in SF
I like many on hear was happy to read the MLB article with Ned's quotes.

However, my question, which I posted yesterday, is what realistically could we get for JP. I believe Andru Jones would be great for the Dodgers and with Kemp and Either flanking him and DY being the 4th outfielder-that to me would be the best situation.

Just don't know what we could get for JP-I obviously would advocate making the trade more attractive and eating some of his salary, and finding some young 2b prospect.

2007-11-16 20:21:23
118.   derek22
your mistake is in trying to get value for pierre.

we have a young 2B prospect in Abreu.

trading Pierre is probably a cut-your-losses kind of thing.

but i do believe at a much lower salary, he is a better lead-off, outfielder than some teams have.

you never know if we eat some of his salary we might could get decent low/mid-level prospect.

2007-11-16 20:25:31
119.   KG16
117 - I think you have to look at who is looking for a "center fielder". To be honest, I don't think there is any realistic chance of trading Pierre until Hunter, Jones, Cameron, and Rowand are all signed. The teams that would make the move, philosophically, would seem to be Cincinnati, the Chi-Sox, maybe Baltimore, maybe the Giants (gawd that would be sweet). Don't know who would make the deal, and what we could get, realistically, but that's the way I see it.

Oh, and what's the latest on our young hero in Tuscon?

2007-11-16 20:27:09
120.   CanuckDodger
It has to be 100% possible to trade Pierre. It is just a matter of how much salary we are willing to eat and how little we are willing to get in return. We all hate him, but there are plenty of teams in baseball that would love to have him at an affordable price. Always give you a good batting average, steals tons of bases, covers plenty of ground in center field. That has value to teams.
2007-11-16 20:29:30
121.   Megaballs
If you eat his contract down to $5mil a year, Pierre is the cheapest CF on the market,no?
2007-11-16 20:33:23
122.   underdog
I think there was probably a bit of a double standard when I expressed surprise that the giants were considering trading lincecum or cain and yet not as much with kemp et al rumors, but I haven't heard much officially from dodgers on the possibilities whereas I read from sabean himself that he was considering and that lincecum wasn't untouchable. so that was part of it but I may either be a hypocrite or in denial...

ah well. hot stove season, gotta love it.
I don't really.

2007-11-16 20:33:49
123.   KG16
120 - I was going to make a comment about Pierre not having a good batting average, then I checked his career batting average all time. He is ranked 190, ALL TIME. I can't believe that Pierre may actually get into the Hall of Fame if he plays long enough... and I can see him getting a lot of protest votes because of the "Steroids Era"
2007-11-16 20:34:11
124.   Bluebleeder87
Always give you a good batting average, steals tons of bases, covers plenty of ground in center field. That has value to teams.

Yeah, & then you watch him play everyday & EVERYTHING CHANGES. Poor Ned I can only imagine what was going thru his mind all year long watching him play.

2007-11-16 20:34:50
125.   derek22
there is a reason our momma's told us not to touch the hot-stove constantly as youngsters.
2007-11-16 20:36:25
126.   Bob Timmermann
Juan Pierre will not make the Hall of Fame and I would be shocked if got more than one token vote.
2007-11-16 20:37:45
127.   derek22
i really dont understand why you all think Pierre is so bad...he is at worst average and could help out a ton of teams...
the only reason i advocate getting rid of him is because i think Ethier, Kemp, LaRoche, are more valuable, and i think an we can upgrade better in CF.
2007-11-16 20:38:47
128.   Marty
I have a feeling, Frank is the type that would just hate to eat much of anyone's contract. As much sense as it makes, he just doesn't seem the type. I have nothing to back that up with.
2007-11-16 20:42:25
129.   derek22
if we had Pierre for 3 Million a year i dont think there would be as much outrage...

my argument is that money shouldn't matter for dodger fans....we have the highest attendance every year and i would assume, one of the highest revenues, although i haven't looked into it....

2007-11-16 20:43:26
130.   CanuckDodger
122 -- There's no double standard at all. It is all a matter of how desperate a team is to add offense. The Dodgers shouldn't be desperate at all. People talk about our offense in 2007 like it was a car wreck, but that is what you get when Loney, Kemp and Ethier are part-time players, Furcal is injured, and LaRoche isn't QUITE ready. Going into 2008, all we need to do for our offense is switch out Pierre in CF with a good hitter acquired as free agent. That's it, we're done. The Giants, on the other hand, cannot possibly help their offense without trading either Cain or Lincecum. They have too many offensive holes to fill through free agency and they have no prospects to trade.
2007-11-16 20:43:43
131.   derek22
wouldnt it have been nice if McCourt had been able to buy the Red Sox, and then in turn their owners had bought the Dodgers?
2007-11-16 20:44:52
132.   Sam DC
Did folks see, or are they otherwise familiar with, Joe Morgan's comments on the importance of OBP and SLG that Joe Posnanski yesterday?

2007-11-16 20:46:21
133.   Sam DC
I'm not happy about the Celtics being immortal, by the way.
2007-11-16 20:48:21
134.   derek22
they are not immortal, just very hard to beat...

i dont think any could survive being hit by the trainwreck that is ned colletti.

2007-11-16 20:53:56
135.   Bluebleeder87
From WikiPedia >>>>César David Izturis (IPA pronunciation: [ɪs'turɪs]) (born February 10, 1980 in Barquisimeto, Venezuela) is a shortstop in Major League Baseball who currently is a free agent. He is the half brother of shortstop Maicer Izturis, who plays for the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim and Julio Izturis, who plays in the minor leagues in the San Francisco Giants organization.

Theres another Izturis in the realm.

2007-11-16 20:58:04
136.   Marty
132 I'm trying to get through the earlier ones of his. I love Posnanski. But man, he is prolific. You skip a couple days and it takes two hours to catch up.
2007-11-16 21:02:16
137.   Bob Timmermann
His wife blogs too. And they have small children.
2007-11-16 21:03:25
138.   derek22
thats creepy
2007-11-16 21:09:28
139.   Marty
What's creepy about that? They just time-manage better than most.
2007-11-16 21:16:05
140.   underdog
130 Just to be clear, I meant double standard coming from me, i.e., I was self-chastising, but I do see your point. It's true we're in a much better position than the Giants, and they do have several young pitchers to deal to upgrade their offense. Though, like the Dodgers, I think they could also, if they wanted to add players, find offense via free agency rather than mortgage their future. I guess I'd be pained if I were Giants fan to think of Lincecum being dealt. Just as I am as a Dodger fan to hear about Kershaw - or even worse, Billingsley, who's already proven himself at the ML level.

Nerve-wracking months to be a fan!

2007-11-16 21:16:49
141.   LAT
128. Marty, he ate Grady, Depo and Tracey's contracts.
2007-11-16 21:17:21
142.   derek22
the way he added.

And they have small children.

just creepy...

2007-11-16 21:18:19
143.   derek22
not to mention all the behind the scenes staff that he boots each year.
2007-11-16 21:26:15
144.   Gen3Blue
This gets so depressing. The only place that Pierre would be worse than in center field would be in a corner. A centerfielder can possibly convert speed into range. The corners (particularly LF) are a place to hide a guy who's a bad fielder, or has a weak arm, to benefit from his power.(He usually hits 20-30 HR from his hiding place.
And so forth. This really doesn't mitigate Colletti's dreadful signing, but would only emphasize it.
2007-11-16 21:29:44
145.   derek22
if our outfield of Pierre, Ethier, Kemp stays intact, the move to Left Field for Pierre makes a ton of would have the same offensive production from the same 3 players...why does it matter what position they are in?....

the move to left if we add a CF is dumb unless we lost kemp or ethier in a trade of some sort.

2007-11-16 21:34:16
146.   derek22
The corners (particularly LF) are a place to hide a guy who's a bad fielder, or has a weak arm, to benefit from his power.(He usually hits 20-30 HR from his hiding place.

so if we lost kemp/ethier in a trade for cabrera or a pitcher, and added say Andruw Jones, and bumped pierre to left field...

that makes a ton of are getting your power from center and 3rd, and hiding your weak armed outfielder in left as you said.

2007-11-16 21:47:55
147.   underdog
Lakers on a 17-6 run in 4th quarter vs Detroit, to take the lead, with Kobe on the bench through all of that. Farmar is looking outstanding on both defense and offense, Bynum's looking good, Evans looks good off the bench, too. Nice run. Of course, the Pistons are without Billups and McDyess, but still, this would be a nice win.

What's up with Turiaf? He's in street clothes tonight.

2007-11-16 21:48:37
148.   derek22
sprained his ankle
2007-11-16 21:54:44
149.   underdog
Ah well. They don't seem to need him tonight...
2007-11-16 21:56:10
150.   Icaros
Ron Garrettson finally makes himself useful.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-11-16 21:56:41
151.   Bluebleeder87
from MLB.COM>>>The Rogers negotiations haven't had nearly the same drama or attention, but they've had their fair share of twists and turns. The free-agent left-hander said toward the end of the season he wasn't sure if he wanted to pitch again in 2008, but if he did, he wanted to do it with Detroit. When he decided he wanted to pitch again, however, Boras informed the Tigers during the GM Meetings last week that he and his client would listen to interest from other clubs, a move that caught president/general manager Dave Dombrowski by surprise.

The Tigers have made two one-year contract offers to Rogers through Boras, both of which were declined. Meanwhile, the Rangers have confirmed their interest in Rogers, and the Mariners have been among other clubs reportedly interested in the 43-year-old southpaw as well.

Is it normal protocol for an agent to do stuff like that? I sincerely don't know & wanna get an idea if Boros is in the wrong or if he's just fallowing protocol. It kind of seems wrong specially if Rogers told Boros he WANTED TO PITCH FOR DETRIOT.

2007-11-16 22:01:09
152.   Marty
LAT, but those were much smaller than what was being talked about, eating LOOGY's contract. I would do it in the interest of making the team better. I'm not sure Frank would.
2007-11-16 22:10:10
153.   underdog
151 Normal protocol or not, it certainly didn't please Rogers. He fired Boras. This isn't a good week for everyone's favorite agent.

"In an unexpected twist to the offseason saga surrounding both free-agent pitcher Kenny Rogers and agent Scott Boras, Rogers has dismissed Boras and now is representing himself in contract negotiations, multiple baseball sources confirmed Friday afternoon."

Well, Lakers game is over, and now I can watch the rest of Boogie Nights, after a swell dinner out. A good evening all around. Night!

2007-11-16 22:14:19
154.   LogikReader

Sam if you're still awake, don't fear the Celtics. First of all they played most of their games at home. Secondly they're playing some weak teams. The Nets? The Wizards? The Knicks? The Raptors?

Meanwhile the Lakers played a series of opponents with a combined record of 41-18 or something like that. To me, I'm more impressed with the Lakers at the moment. They are lookin' sharp!

2007-11-16 22:18:31
155.   LogikReader
Look, I'll be honest, I hate the Celtics anyway. It doesn't help to have annoying Doc Rivers coach the team and have all those all-stars... it reeks of Lakers '04, don't you think?

Key differences exist, yes. Anyway, that concludes this edition of Laker Points on Dodger Thoughts&trade

2007-11-16 22:21:22
156.   Bob Timmermann
And Golden State has finally won a game!
2007-11-16 22:22:47
157.   Bluebleeder87

one of my favorite movies, thanks for the heads up Underdog!!

2007-11-16 22:23:19
158.   popup
I would play Ethier in center. He has a better arm than Pierre and gets good enough jumps on a flyball (at least he did when I saw him play center in the minors for Oakland) to play the position. Kemp has more speed than Ethier, but his arm is erratic and he does not seem that fluid in the field to me. That would not be a bad outfield

LaRoche, Furcal, Kent and Loney is a decent enough infield. Martin is a really good catcher. I don't see why Young could not be brought back to the infield so he could be be used say the way the Angels use Figgins as injury insurance in the infield and outfield.

Penny. Lowe and Billingsley are a solid starting point for a rotation. I'd like to see a 4th starter brought in and have the 5th spot be a competion between Loiza and Schmidt. Broxton, Beimel, Proctor and Saito are capable relief pitchers.

I would not trade for Cabrera or Santana, nor spend money for Rowland, Hunter or Jones. I would try to get a backup outfielder and a catcher who can spell Martin.

Stan from Tacoma

2007-11-16 22:32:51
159.   Xeifrank
127. Once again, Juan Pierre is not average. If his OPS was 75 points higher, then perhaps.
vr, Xei
2007-11-16 22:41:43
160.   Jon Weisman
WGA and AMPTP will return to the bargaining table November 26.

2007-11-16 22:44:59
161.   Jon Weisman
127 - People including myself have documented at length over the past two days how he is worse than average, in response to what you've been writing. It seems like you're just ignoring what's being written, rather than actually trying to understand.

When we document that his production is near the bottom for major league outfielders, even with his speed factored in, what are you not understanding?

2007-11-16 22:47:29
162.   underdog
160 It'll be great if they can indeed, er, talk turkey at the table.

Man, I'd forgotten how depressing the last third of Boogie Nights is. Still a blast, though.

2007-11-16 22:56:08
163.   Bob Timmermann
Mixed metaphor alert in the post below the linked one:

"We're on the ten yard line, folks. Let's drive it home."

2007-11-16 23:06:27
164.   Greg Brock
For those of you who have not seen it, the Michigan/tOSU documentary on HBO is off the charts good.

And the dulcet tones of Liev Schreiber never get old.

2007-11-16 23:07:03
165.   jasonungar07
I hope Jones continues the trend and dumps Boras and comes here, 3 years 60 million.
2007-11-16 23:14:58
166.   Bob Timmermann
I have it ready to tape at 1:05 am.

I can watch it tomorrow when the actual Michigan-Ohio State game gets boring.

2007-11-17 00:21:03
167.   Greg Brock
Marty, if you're out there, I have a $100 buy-in, 20 person Hold 'Em tourney tomorrow.

Thank The Dude I'm finally employed again.

2007-11-17 00:47:36
168.   Bill Crain
Yes, Andre Ethier to center. That's what I been on about.

Maybe he's too slow but how would we know? Stick him in there and find out. By some metrics he ranked among the league's best right fielders. Give him the chance to play himself out of center, if he can. I don't think he would. He can't be any slower than Nick Swisher.

Then, if you start thinking of Ethier as a center fielder, suddenly his numbers look really good. He becomes an untouchable like Kemp and Loney. And maybe the trade speculation dries up and blows away.

But no, I got no suggestion how to deal with little Juan.

2007-11-17 01:01:35
169.   Andrew Shimmin
McCourt ate, what, fifteen million give or take of Odalis Perez's contract (minus the value of pre-paid Dessens). This would be more than twice that, so you never know. He ate ten million of Shawn Green's contract, by DePo's hand, too. There's no getting around what it would mean if Colletti had to ask him to write a check for thirty million to cover Pierre's ticket out of town, but I don't have a strong sense he'd be unwilling to do it.
2007-11-17 01:19:31
170.   Bill Crain
My question, would Colletti even want to ask? I mean, we only heard he wants to get the arm out of center. For all we know, Ned may be struggling desperately with the intellectual problem of minimizing the defensive liability without losing the bat he so values at the top of the order.

Buster Olney ain't gonna tell us. No way to know without a phone tap. Or maybe a lip reader in center with a pair of binoculars.

2007-11-17 02:47:24
171.   Eric Enders
167 I spent all night tonight playing Hold 'Em at the Flamingo in Vegas, which really did nothing except show me how far I've got to go before I'm actually any good. I don't know if that lesson was worth $140, however.
2007-11-17 06:52:20
172.   derek22
you are using "moneyball" type stats to evaluate a player with a different style of skill sets....
the only true knock on Pierre offensively is his lack of walks.
he has a good batting average and excellent speed.
is a walk by a slow player on a powerless team better than less walks by a player who can fly around the bases?
he doesnt have an average .ops no, but he has slightly above average BA and SB and scored nearly 100 runs on a team that struggled in doing so.
my point is everyone is quick to point to his weaknesses and overlook his skills.
we could do much worse with a number 2 hitter/outfielder.
2007-11-17 06:56:55
173.   Gen3Blue
145-146 Sorry I didn't hang around last night to respond. What you say makes some sense, I'm venting frustration because there is no really good solution to JP.
2007-11-17 07:03:48
174.   derek22
i refuse to use .ops as a mark to judge JP. he is never going to have a high slugging % and he isnt that type of player.

there are only 13 CF in the MLB with a higher OBP.

there were 12 LF in the MLB with higher OBP than Ethier

7 RF with a better OBP than kemp and he was tied with JD Drew.

2007-11-17 07:10:27
175.   rockmrete
I like the idea of Ethier in CF. I would put Kemp in RF, and use both D Young, and LaRoache in left until Nomar proves he's done. Pierre? 5th Outfielder.
2007-11-17 07:13:40
176.   derek22
not a bad idea. What about giving the 3B job to LaRoche and making Nomar prove he isn't done in LF?
2007-11-17 07:17:18
177.   Jon Weisman
172 - I am not overlooking his skills.

For the last time, I am factoring in Pierre's speed.

For the last time, his runs scored total is directly related to how many opportunities he gets to play.

Just because Pierre is never going to have a high slugging percentage doesn't mean slugging percentage is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter how much worse we could do than Pierre when, right this second, we could do better.

2007-11-17 07:17:27
178.   rockmrete
HeHe, I not sure Ned can swallow that hard. Pierre on the Bench, and the other Player in Left.
2007-11-17 07:20:10
179.   derek22
i think we should trade for cabrera solely on the hope that he might swallow ned
or maybe bartolo colon....
crap maybe we can convince broxton to do it
2007-11-17 07:20:54
180.   rockmrete
Though, Nomar did say he would do whatever the team needed to do to win. Nomar starting in left means LaRoache staring at his natural position.
2007-11-17 07:21:07
181.   Jon Weisman
Anyway, derek, now at least you don't have to say you don't understand what everyone's problem with Pierre is. We can just agree to disagree and move on to something else.
2007-11-17 08:15:29
182.   Megaballs
Might as well start Bison in CF and let him get on with the business of becoming the best CF in the bigs.
2007-11-17 08:33:43
183.   Xeifrank
181. are we agreeing to disagree that the earth is flat and is at the center of the solar system?
vr, Xei
2007-11-17 08:43:43
184.   popup
I think Nomar in left would be really ugly defensively. I can't imagine him being much more than a statue. Kemp in center would be an adventure along the lines of Willy Mo Pena. Maybe Kemp would learn the position-- some guys do get better at defense-- but I don't think I would be willing to play him in center right now to find out. If Kemp doesn't hit I don't think he will be of much value. I would think Kemp's upside is a player like Pedro Guerrero, with I hope somewhat better defense.

Stan from Tacoma

2007-11-17 09:11:24
185.   Benaiah
169 - I don't think it would be twice that much to get rid of Pierre. I think there would be interest in Juan Pierre at 4 or 5 million a year, so McCourt would only eat 18 to 22 million over four years.

The hard part I think is that Ned will want something back. Maybe just a middle reliever, but maybe something beyond a token.

2007-11-17 09:14:44
186.   Benaiah
184 - He is still young and with his speed and arm he could learn to be an excellent outfielder. He has the speed to be a center fielder, and with his offense he would be one of the best in the game even if he was below average in the field.
2007-11-17 09:23:14
187.   Vishal
i would have no problem dumping pierre off for spare parts and tossing either kemp or repko in center.

repko vs. pierre

speedy? check.
low OBP? check, though repko walks much more, so if his BA comes up, he can improve.
no power? oh wait, repko has some pop.
bad routes to the ball? check.
no arm? oh wait, repko has a great arm.
durability? this is the only category where pierre wins. but pierre's so bad, who cares that he's durable?

and if you can put kemp in CF as a backup plan if repko gets injured again, then you're golden. with delwyn young as a 4th outfielder, we don't need to get a free agent, unless it's a ricky ledee, brady clark 5th OF-type.

i'm worried about 3rd base, but if a-rod's now off the table, there aren't many other appealing options.

2007-11-17 09:24:51
188.   Sharkie
JP as a pinch runner/pinch hitter/utility OFer could work. Then you emphasize what he CAN do (speed and BA) and de-emphasize what he can't (field, throw, get on base, and hit for power).
2007-11-17 09:46:22
189.   Andrew Shimmin
183- I always knew there was something I didn't like about you, but now it's clear: you're a heliocentrist! Despicable.
2007-11-17 09:54:06
190.   Andrew Shimmin
185- Maybe so. Bill Crain's point is still operative. DePo dumped Green (Malone contract, yes?) and Flanders dumped Perez (DePo contract). Nobody's asked for, or, at least, nobody got permission to dump one of his own bad contracts. If Pierre gets sent away for twenty million, does that mean Colletti's successor will end up ditching twenty-five million in 2010? I hope it won't be Aaron Rowand.
2007-11-17 09:57:18
191.   Ken Noe
Your daily rumor, from the Boston Globe: Dodgers losing interest in Cabrera due to the high price in players, once more interested in Lowell.

Go Hokies, beat U

2007-11-17 10:04:26
192.   Bluebleeder87

the drunken high dialog is what always blows my mind, it's so well written you can't help & think the writer lived thrue an episode like that in his life, just a really good movie in my opinion.

2007-11-17 10:05:31
193.   rockmrete
Nomar in left is only because he has a guarenteed contract, and gives the start at third to LaRoache. I have no illusions of greatness from Nomar in Left.

I prefer Ehtier in CF over Kemp because I think he has better instincts for Outfield defense then Kemp Right Now...My understanding is that Kemp has only been playing baseball for a short time relative to other players. That is the only reason Kemp does not look as polished as the better defensive outfielders in the league. He is such an awesome athelete that with time, and experience he will be just as good if not better than most.

2007-11-17 10:07:01
194.   goofus
Why not Rolen? Yeah, I'd rather just use LaRoche too but letting Ned trade for Rolen MIGHT keep him from doing something worse. The good thing with Rolen is they would probably take Pierre and Nomar in trade and we might not have to include too much money because of Rolen's contract. And he has to give up his no trade contract so we could spin him off if we still want to use LaRoche.
2007-11-17 10:13:53
195.   rockmrete

I think you have something there. Cards may need a CF after this year with Edmunds being in the last year of his contract. LaRussa seems to like speedy scrappy guys so a Rolen, Edmunds for Nomar, Pierre for an opening trade discussion coud be a possibility

2007-11-17 10:21:25
196.   heato

Isn't Rasmus projected to be centerfielder?

2007-11-17 10:23:19
197.   heato

be a centerfielder

2007-11-17 10:31:03
198.   rockmrete
I don't know anything about their system.
2007-11-17 10:49:33
199.   rockmrete
Besides, Pierre has PVL:)
2007-11-17 10:50:30
200.   Gr-ool
114 I work next to a guy at work who once asked, "How do you spell 'wow?'" Same guy also frequently screws up common phrases, like, "It had all the whistles to bells." Pretty amusing sometimes.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-11-17 10:53:03
201.   regfairfield
195 The Cardinals organization is completely hosed (3rd worst team in the NL according to my "how hosed are you?" metric). The last thing they should be doing is adding contracts.
2007-11-17 11:08:43
202.   Bob Timmermann
Does your metric have a nice acronym?
2007-11-17 11:12:04
203.   regfairfield
2007-11-17 11:13:23
204.   Bob Timmermann
It needs to spell out HOSE or HOSED to work well.
2007-11-17 11:30:36
205.   derek22
wouldn't it be nice if JP was less durable?
and before Repko hurt his ankle he was raking to the tune of .330-.340
2007-11-17 11:33:20
206.   derek22
would it be too far a stretch to hope for Lowell at 3B with an outfield of LaRoche-Either-Kemp?
2007-11-17 11:43:04
207.   derek22
Does anyone know the reasoing for Kemp Playing RF and moving Ethier to Left? Even though Ethier played RF with every other OF combination.
it isnt a big deal but going by what has been said here Ethier is a better defender and its clear Ethier has a big time arm.
2007-11-17 11:44:47
208.   Andrew Shimmin
Hosedness Over the Standard baseball-Enterprise.
2007-11-17 11:48:25
209.   KG16
Just when you thought the spectacle of a Duke-Notre Dame football game on national television couldn't get any better, we hear this from the announcer, "because {female sideline reporter} is out on maternity leave, we turn to our friend from TBS, Karl Sager, and his seizure inducing wardrobe."

Ok, I made that last part up.

2007-11-17 11:49:45
210.   Bluebleeder87

I don't know about Lowell, MAYBE a one year deal? but he's seeking 3 or 4 yers so I'm sure he won't me signed by us (I'm hoping)

2007-11-17 11:52:32
211.   KG16
208 - Hosed Over Standard Evaluation?
2007-11-17 11:52:39
212.   Bob Timmermann
You can wait for Tom Hammond to canonize Jimmy Clausen for completing one long pass.
2007-11-17 11:53:33
213.   Jon Weisman
207 - Kemp has the best arm of the two.
2007-11-17 11:53:46
214.   bhsportsguy
At least Herbie isn't wearing some awful tie using both OSU and Michigan colors like Tommy Heinson used to do when he did Lakers vs. Celtics gammes.

But what's up with his hat?

2007-11-17 11:54:12
215.   Jon Weisman
Stanford's undefeated season is about to end at the hands of our Eastern nemesis, Siena.
2007-11-17 11:55:21
216.   bhsportsguy
212 Are you watching the HBO documentary instead of the game yet?
2007-11-17 11:56:29
217.   derek22
nothing comes close to seizure-inducing like Vin's neon blonde/yellow/gold/orange hair.
2007-11-17 11:58:35
218.   derek22
Lakers are ranked 3rd on Hollinger's Power Rankings @
2007-11-17 12:00:00
219.   KG16
It's nice to know that dumb commentary is just becoming part of sports broadcasting. Or you know, not.

From the game, "If you have 3rd and 7 and run a 6 yard route, if my math is correct, you can't get a first down."

Yes, because in American football, there is a new rule that you have to stop running the second you catch the ball.

2007-11-17 12:00:28
220.   bhsportsguy
215 Ben Howland is going to be upset and ask why is Stanford playing mid-majors on the road?
2007-11-17 12:01:50
221.   Bob Timmermann
The Greg Brock Nightmare Scenario:
USC beats Arizona State
UCLA beats Oregon
Oregon beats Oregon State
Arizona beats Arizona State
UCLA beats USC

UCLA goes to the Rose Bowl.

Karl Dorrell is crowned King of Westwood!

2007-11-17 12:02:02
222.   bhsportsguy
219 One question, dumb commentary is now just becoming part of sports broadcasting?
2007-11-17 12:02:33
223.   derek22
i blame the worst announcer ever John Madden....i wish they would fire him and hire frank calliendo as his replacement and not tell anyone....we would just think madden got a little funnier.
2007-11-17 12:02:56
224.   D4P
Just think how bad Greg would feel if Dorrell's Bruins won the next, say, 5 national championships or so. Man: he'd be in the dumps.
2007-11-17 12:03:03
225.   the2pin
Cabrera or Santana? Assuming the trade pieces are the same, which helps the team more?
2007-11-17 12:03:34
226.   bhsportsguy
221 It is not too far fetched to see 4 of 5 of those events come true.
2007-11-17 12:04:00
227.   KG16
222 - in my defense, I grew up listening to Vin and Chick. In college (and later law school), most games were watched in bars/student centers where there was music playing rather than the commentators.
2007-11-17 12:04:12
228.   derek22
Santana, if his contract is extended as part of the deal.
2007-11-17 12:04:31
229.   Bob Timmermann
As someone who has suffered from seizures, I can tell you that nothing in Craig Sager's wardrobe or Vin Scully's hair will induce a seizure.

And they aren't nearly as humorous as people would think.

2007-11-17 12:05:47
230.   bhsportsguy
224 I think a Pac-10 championship would suffice for whoever is coaching the team next year, I am not sure if there is a coach with that many National Championships* in NCAA Division 1 football.

*Recognizing that there is really no such thing as a National Champion in Division 1 football.

2007-11-17 12:05:59
231.   KG16
222 - in my defense, I grew up listening to Vin and Chick. In college (and later law school), most games were watched in bars/student centers where there was music playing rather than the commentators.

And I didn't mean, that it's a recent phenomenon, but that it's to be taken as a given.

2007-11-17 12:08:17
232.   Bob Timmermann
Bear Bryant had six national championships depending upon whom you wish to believe.
2007-11-17 12:08:54
233.   derek22
hey i wonder what we could get marbury for.
2007-11-17 12:08:55
234.   KG16
229 - I wasn't attempting to make light of seizures. I was only attempting to make light of Craig Sager's wardrobe. If I offended anyone, my deepest apologies.

227/231 - I thought I hit the stop button fast enough.

And now, I'm off to breakfast.

2007-11-17 12:10:12
235.   Izzy
213. Jon. Please explain. I must have missed a metric or something.
2007-11-17 12:13:07
236.   bhsportsguy
227 The amazing part is that Vin (aside from his NBC work and his semi-monthly visits with Frank McCourt) always works alone but Chick had a sidekick/color commentator alongside but a sample of their input (at least until Stu arrived) could be summed up like this:

Chick: Dribble drive by Magic, fakes left, no look to Worthy, slammmm dunk!
Keith Erickson: Unbelivable pass by Magic.
Chick: Inbounds to Dennis Johnson, over Bird, into McHale, 6 footer, in and out heartbreak, rebound to Green, over to Scott, back to Magic, yo-yoing up and down, down to Kareem, 8 foot sky hook over Parish, 2 points.
Keith Erickson, Kareem got good position on that one.

2007-11-17 12:15:18
237.   Paul Scott

the only true knock on Pierre offensively is his lack of walks. he has a good batting average and excellent speed.

His lack of walks is not his only true "knock" offensively. Let's start with your first contention "he has a good batting average."

I'll say two things to that. First, the same thing everyone else is saying - BA is not what is relevant, OBP is what matters, and his OBP is merely average (to slightly below average).

Here is the thing about his so called "good" batting average, though. It is not truely good, it is merely average then made to look good because of his speed. Let me elaborate. His LD% is around 20%. That is perfectly acceptable. His GB% is around 55%, which for Pierre is a good thing. The problem is what that means. Look at his BA with runners on the bases - it drops from around .300 to around .250. That makes perfect sense from his components. The guy rarely walks or Ks, so most balls are put in play. About half of the time, he puts the ball on the ground. That is fine for him (right now) because of his speed. But with slower people on the base path (and going to bases that are much closer to the ball), he ends up with a lot of "FC".

The reality is, Pierre is not a "good hitter with speed." Pierre is simply an average to below average hitter that happens to be really fast. Speed is not something that people are missing when talking about him. Speed, instead, is 100% of Pierre's value.

That, btw, is also true of his defense. As a CF he is actually still a slightly above average fielder. This in spite of very serious problems with his arm strength.

There are, in turn, two huge problems with a player whose skill set is based entirely on speed. The first is that this is a team game, not an individual sprint competition. Team games in general, and I think Baseball in particular, mean that an athlete's individual skills are less important than how those skills can be integrated with the rest of the team. For Pierre, his batting skills mean that he is really only average as a hitter when none of his teammates are on base.

Secondly, with speed in particular, Pierre was at his peak before he made it to a major league team. Speed is the one skill that is in decline every year a player is in the majors. At some point in his career - and almost certainly before the 5 years on his contract end - his speed will decline to the point where all those grounders he hits will become outs at a much higher rate than they do today.

Pierre is the type of player that good GMs use to take advantage of the majority of GMs. Sadly, the Dodgers are near the bottom in that category.

2007-11-17 12:15:49
238.   bhsportsguy
232 Okay, but if there was a SABR for college football, where would they stand on NCAA Division 1 college football championships?
2007-11-17 12:20:29
239.   Bob Timmermann
Excellent analysis and very logically laid out and without resorting to emotion.

Baseball has been full of players like Juan Pierre and history has shown they don't last very long or are particularly valuable.

Unless you want a lineup full of guys like Debs Garms and Brian Hunter and Gary Pettis and Carson Bigbee.

2007-11-17 12:22:41
240.   Bob Timmermann
This site
gives Alabama credit for 11 national championships overall.
Notre Dame has 12. Yale has 19 and Princeton has 24.

The latter two aren't going to win any more of them.

2007-11-17 12:25:08
241.   derek22
i agree with 239
seems to be the first anti-Pierre argument where more was said than, His OBP is Low so he sucks.

i still maintain that OBP is slightly less important for a non-slugging top-of-the-lineup speed player.

but your analysis is right on, and i gather from it that he is an average/ slightly above average player?

2007-11-17 12:28:35
242.   Bob Timmermann
This is starting to resemble the Greg Brock vs. Bob Timmermann argument over Karl Dorrell.

Except even more frustrating.

2007-11-17 12:31:21
243.   underdog
233 "hey i wonder what we could get marbury for."

How's his arm in centerfield?

2007-11-17 12:31:56
244.   bhsportsguy
242 Just walk away. And I told Brock that my sources (Ha) are unsure about what will happen in Westwood.
2007-11-17 12:33:36
245.   Benaiah
241 - It is more important for players like Juan Pierre. That is the only thing a non-slugger can do, get on base and thus get knocked in.
2007-11-17 12:34:09
246.   Bob Timmermann
You mean UCLA will hire Juan Pierre to coach the football team?
2007-11-17 12:34:25
247.   derek22
thought this was interesting

JP .293 .331 .353

RF .270 .333 .355

2007-11-17 12:35:25
248.   derek22
yeah, i meant .OPS
2007-11-17 12:38:57
249.   Jon Weisman
"seems to be the first anti-Pierre argument where more was said than, His OBP is Low so he sucks."


2007-11-17 12:44:22
250.   Paul Scott
241 No. I guess I would have two questions for you, then I'll be happy to elaborate more.

Firstly, what is your reasoning that OBP is less important for a "top-of-the-lineup speed player"? I am confused.

1. For a player with no power, and particularly for a player with speed, the only thing that can possibly matter is not making an out. That way, once on first base they can use that speed to generate more offense than their OPS implies because OPS does not take into account stolen bases nor taking extra bases on a hit (EqA, however, does). Why do you think it is more important how Pierre gets to 1B (high BA) than merely the fact that he gets there (high OBP).

2. Since you point out "top of the order" as part of his descriptor, I assume you are talking about his "lead-offness" and thus his batting without runners on base more often than most other players (this is true of lead-off hitters, btw, but not nearly to the degree most people think it is). This is particularly confusing. I can understand (even though it is wrong) people thinking that "putting the ball in play" is often more important than just getting on base safely, but when you are emphasizing that the player needs to do this because he is a lead-off hitter, your argument makes no sense to me. Please explain your reasoning.

Secondly, I am curious what reasoning you are using that allows you to both call my analysis "right on" and come to the conclusion that the player I analyzed was average to slightly above average, overall.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-11-17 12:45:14
251.   Bob Timmermann
ABC is not showing Cal vs UW in HD. Football games in the rain are fun in HD.
2007-11-17 12:46:34
252.   derek22
whats unbelievable is how Pierre is the target of everyone when our lead-off hitter didnt do any better, if not worse.

but alas, i understand there arent better SS solutions out there, but i still fear signing a CF will result in losing kemp/ethier

2007-11-17 12:47:13
253.   D4P
This is starting to resemble the Greg Brock vs. Bob Timmermann argument over Karl Dorrell

You can't say you weren't warned.

2007-11-17 12:50:10
254.   Mongoose
I think most of us believe that Matt Kemp has the potential to be an outstanding player and that his performance last summer shows he's well on his way to doing so.

My concern is that Colletti is trying to trade him and that he's being pushed to do so by Jeff Kent. I think that Kent may have suggested to Colletti that he won't return to the Dodgers next summer if some of the younger players, such as Kemp, are still on the team. If the Dodgers acquire a free-agent centerfielder, such as Rowand, they may feel justified in trading Kemp.

I hope that Colletti will realize the extraordinarily valuable player that Kemp is and not trade him.

2007-11-17 12:50:28
255.   Paul Scott
252 Our SS had a career worst year in 2007 (following a career best year in 2006). Everyone is very much aware of this and was, from the beginning of the year, aware that he had an ankle injury and was asked to play through it.

Furcal is one of the best SS in baseball, both offensively and defensively. He just had a bad year.

Pierre had a perfectly normal year this year. In fact, in some respects it was above average for him (career best SB% and total SBs). In spite of this, Pierre is still, one of the worst at his position.

2007-11-17 12:51:31
256.   bhsportsguy
Is there something wrong with me that I would prefer to have Spongebob Squarepants on as opposed to a football game that I have no rooting interest in?

To be clear, there are no children in the house so I could them as an excuse for watching Patrick and Spongebob.

2007-11-17 12:51:39
257.   Bob Timmermann
But we are both rational human beings who agreed to drop the subject and now I only kid about it and recognize the esteemed Mr. Brock's opinion.

This is a complete degradation of discourse here.

2007-11-17 12:52:18
258.   Andrew Shimmin
253- Yeah, but you have some false positives in your history. I read the lead-in to all of this catching up a day or so after it started, so I don't remember the timeline perfectly. Did you call it before or after the loling and ellipses showed up?
2007-11-17 12:52:35
259.   derek22
i meant .ops, where as...a player with pop has an inflated slug%, and will be intentionally walked a little more than someone who is a threat on the bases, resulting in a lower .OPS.

i agreed with your analysis, and was asking where you think he stands among other players.

His OB% is 14th in the lg among CF.

and im not necessarily saying that putting the ball in play is more important, what i am saying is he may get on base less, but he does more when he is there.

2007-11-17 12:54:49
260.   thinkblue0

Pierre is the target because of frustration. Most of the people around here (myself included) probably let out an audible gasp when they saw we signed Pierre. We all knew what we were getting, and what we were getting wasn't good.

I think, more than anything, people have accepted the fact that Pierre is here but are trying to figure out the logic of signing him in the first place. You seem to be a fan of his, and that's fine, but he really is simply a bad player.

Also, you mention Furcal....the guy was hurt the ENTIRE year. You have to expect that a guy is going to have a downturn when he's playing on a bum ankle every day. While Furcal and Pierre's numbers are very similar, Pierre also had in the neighborhood of 85 more AB's than Furcal. Have to take that into consideration when comparing the two to see how unproductive Pierre really is.

2007-11-17 12:55:25
261.   derek22
i think we should sign Fukudome, on hilarity alone...that name rocks, and he is an outfielder!
2007-11-17 12:56:16
262.   D4P
This is a complete degradation of discourse here

Which is precisely the objective, and why the warning was issued.

I called it (offsite) immediately after it showed up. It's pretty easy to recognize.

2007-11-17 12:57:20
263.   derek22
yeah, i really want Pierre out as much as anyone but i just like to play devil's advocate and hurt Jon's head....gotta keep this place interesting.

and i already the counter argument for furcal's off year, and pierre's typical year.

2007-11-17 12:58:34
264.   thinkblue0
i meant .ops, where as...a player with pop has an inflated slug%, and will be intentionally walked a little more than someone who is a threat on the bases

The impact of intentional walks on OPS is so minimal that it's not even worth mentioning.

and im not necessarily saying that putting the ball in play is more important, what i am saying is he may get on base less, but he does more when he is there.

How? That's the whole point of this. If you don't get on base, then you've failed. Would you rather have a guy with an OBP of .430 who steals NO bases or Pierre at .330 who'll steal around 60 and get caught around 15-20? I'll absolutely take the former.

2007-11-17 12:58:34
265.   Bob Timmermann
So do people actually wake up in the morning and put "act like a troll" on their To Do list for the day?

Does it pop up as an appointment on MS Outlook or iCal?

2007-11-17 13:00:20
266.   Andrew Shimmin
262- You should set up a color coded advisory warning. You'd have to buy ad space to get it up on the sidebar, but it could be worth it. You could start shopping at Walmart to defray the cost. Win-Win!
2007-11-17 13:01:27
267.   derek22
dont you need to factor in the weak bats behind pierre? that makes pierres speed more important

and an OBP of .430 is around league leading...
where as i pointed out, pierre's is smack in the middle for CF.

2007-11-17 13:01:37
268.   Andrew Shimmin
263- That's sort of the definition of a rule four violation. Thanks for admitting it, though. It makes everything easier.
2007-11-17 13:03:04
269.   derek22
i'm not arguing for JP being a good or really good player...

i'm just saying that many people are over reacting on how bad he really is.

2007-11-17 13:04:12
270.   Bob Timmermann
Comment 263:
yeah, i really want Pierre out as much as anyone but i just like to play devil's advocate and hurt Jon's head.

Comment 269:
i'm not arguing for JP being a good or really good player...

2007-11-17 13:07:55
271.   Paul Scott
If you want a look at what Pierre could/should be (only Pierre would be much better), check out Willits. He is essentially a useful version of Pierre, but without the blazing speed (still quite fast, though).
2007-11-17 13:07:57
272.   thinkblue0
dont you need to factor in the weak bats behind pierre? that makes pierres speed more important

Prove it.

*and an OBP of .430 is around league leading...
where as i pointed out, pierre's is smack in the middle for CF.*

You're right, and as a matter of fact, Pierre ranked 11th amongst MLB CF's last year in OBP. But, he ranked LAST in slugging, LAST in OPS, I believe 25th in RBI, yet SECOND in AB's.

Doesn't that tell you something? You're saying that Pierre is in the middle when it comes to OBP which is true, but he's last or almost last in ALL of the major hitting categories AND he has the second most AB's.

How can you possibly defend the guy?

2007-11-17 13:12:39
273.   Icaros
What lake was the Corleone compound on in Godfather 2?

What color is the sky?

2007-11-17 13:13:26
274.   gvette
236 You're forgetting Pat Riley's contributions as Chick's colorman;
"You're right, Chick, and here's the first half stats."

239 Brett Butler had a similar skill set to Pierre, but was mostly beloved (except by Mike Busch),applauded as a "gamer", and played well past his shelf life. Vince Coleman,Otis Nixon,Omar Moreno, and Lofton all had similar skills, and long careers

2007-11-17 13:14:46
275.   Bob Timmermann
Duke vs. Notre Dame is indeed one of the worst matchups in college football in recent years.

These teams are terrible.

On the other hand, Missouri seems to be a pretty good team. Which sounds odd.

And Buster Olney could be celebrating a Vandy win over Tennessee.

2007-11-17 13:16:53
276.   derek22
would kinda be funny if Notre Dame beats Stanford next week.... ill be at the game.
2007-11-17 13:17:07
277.   Bob Timmermann
Brett Butler drew lots of walks. Kenny Lofton walks a fair bit too and he has occasional power.

Otis Nixon and Omar Moreno and Vince Coleman were vastly overrated. And if I had to build a baseball team with an outfield of those three guys, I would be terrified.

2007-11-17 13:20:11
278.   Icaros
Brett Butler's career OPS+ was 110. Juan Pierre's is 84.
2007-11-17 13:20:46
279.   Andrew Shimmin
Career ISOd

Butler: .080
Lofton: .073
Nixon: .073
Coleman: .060
Moreno: .054
Pierre: .026

Lofton also had some power. Not a lot, but some.

2007-11-17 13:20:52
280.   derek22
lets just hope Ned signs Jones/Rowand/Hunter at the expense of Pierre.

he is trade-able despite what some people say.

and we could keep LaRoche and his developing power. i think thats our best option.

2007-11-17 13:21:43
281.   Bob Timmermann
The quality and length of Omar Moreno's career is not overly impressive:

2007-11-17 13:23:04
282.   derek22
never even heard of omar moreno....thought yall were talkin about the angels owner at first...he must have been before my time... only 22
2007-11-17 13:30:56
283.   Daniel Zappala
265 Apparently, yes.
2007-11-17 13:38:04
284.   Paul Scott
274 none of those are good comparables.

1. Coleman was a lot faster, had a lot of Ks and BBs and his career as a starter was effectively over at age 28. He stuck around for an other 7 years, but was never any good after he left the Cardnials. Later in his career, he had one more season starting for KC, but mostly because they were terrible.

2. Otis Nixon walked. He had a lifetime IsoD of .073 (above average for his era). He was also an outstanding defensive CF for most of his career, without Pierre's arm troubles.

3. Omar Moreno. I wish he was a good comparable to Pierre, because it would make my point well - he was simply terrible. Worse than Pierre. He is a good comparable to Coleman, just not as good overall. Alas, like Coleman, his career was effectively over once he left Pittsburgh at age 29. He and Coleman do help illustrate one thing though - guys with nothing to offer but speed don't last long and fall off the cliff very hard and very fast.

4. Kenny Lofton. Again, like Nixon, lifetime IsoD of .073. The guy can walk. During his career, he broke .400 OBP four times and came close a couple more. He also had some power. Lifetime SLG of .423. Kenny had a lot more to offer than just being fast.

Pierre, in 8 years of MLB play, has an IsoD of .047 and a SLG of .374. He is 30 next year. We'll see how hard and how fast he falls off the cliff once his speed hits the critical threshold someone of his age must be reaching.

2007-11-17 13:38:37
285.   Paul Scott
279 That's what I get for trying to be verbose.
2007-11-17 13:38:50
286.   gvette
281 If you told Moreno that in the late 70's his friend Dave Parker would have had words with you.

282 It's a 70's thing, along with gold uniforms, big baseball caps, bad disco songs, and Howard Cosell doing the World Series Broadcasts in a shocking yellow ABC blazer.

278 279 Never said that Pierre was any better than those players, just that for some reason talent evaluators created a niche for outfielders who are fast, can make contact, but lack most other identifiable baseball skills (power,defense etc),and like most things in baseball, old beliefs (myths) linger seemingly forever.

2007-11-17 13:41:06
287.   Jon Weisman
Derek22 was banned for violating (at least) site rules 3, 4 and 8.
2007-11-17 13:41:46
288.   Paul Scott
279 How do you get an IsoD of 0.26 for Pierre, btw? Are you including minor league stats (I did not look at those).

His DT card shows a career BA of .301 and career OBP of .348

Which is still terrible but not as horrific as .026

2007-11-17 13:43:58
289.   underdog
bh, don't feel bad - I was about ready to watch Spongebob, too, until I saw the Cal game was on. And I don't have kids here either!

Nice to see Cal coming back - they have to win this one. I also didn't realize, or had forgotten, that Cal's all-Pac10 center Alex Mack was from my hometown (Sta Barbara). Their line is really good, as Dan Fouts has mentioned about 12 times.

2007-11-17 13:47:40
290.   Bob Timmermann
Cal is already bowl eligible, so they are likely heading to Las Vegas or San Francisco.
2007-11-17 13:48:51
291.   Bob Timmermann
Vandy is up on Tennessee by 8 in the fourth quarter. If the 'Dores win, then Georgia plays LSU for the SEC championship.

I have created a new nickname for Vandy.

2007-11-17 13:50:16
292.   underdog
290 Right, but is certain they're stuck with one of those bowls, or can they get to a more top flight game (or end up somewhere worse)? Not that it'd be that bad if they play in the game here; then I'd actually try and go.

Er, Longshore's gonna have to not throw interceptions, for one thing.

2007-11-17 13:50:18
293.   Andrew Shimmin
288- You get it by subtracting his OBP from his SLG instead of doing what you meant to do. You have to be a little credulous to not notice the mistake immediately, but, happily, I'm just a little bit credulous. Thanks for the correction.
2007-11-17 13:51:31
294.   bhsportsguy
Jimmy Clausen, your next ND Heisman Trophy winner.
2007-11-17 13:51:58
295.   underdog
Every Saturday I think about NBC and how sad they must be by their long, ludicrous Notre Dame contract.

Not that a Notre Dame-Duke game doesn't excite the heck out of me.

Because it doesn't.

2007-11-17 13:52:59
296.   xaphor
Jelly Fishing is ten times the sport American Football is.
2007-11-17 13:53:01
297.   Bob Timmermann
The only bowl worse than the Emerald Bowl would be the Armed Forces Bowl in Fort Worth I think.

And that bowl is reserved for a mediocre Pac-10 team that can scrape together six wins, like UCLA or Wazzu or the unnamed school.

2007-11-17 13:53:37
298.   bhsportsguy
I am now watching a paella cooking demonstration since I may attempt to make it later today.
2007-11-17 13:54:57
299.   Bob Timmermann
Paella takes a very long time to make, so if you intend to eat before midnight, I suggest you get started.
2007-11-17 13:58:42
300.   Sam DC
LogikReader - I was asleep last night, but thanks for Lakers v. Celtics Thoughts.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-11-17 14:02:55
301.   Bob Timmermann
Vandy's lead is cut to 2 in Knoxville. Tennessee scored a TD, but missed the 2-pointer.

7:14 to go.

Vandy hasn't beaten Tennessee in Knoxville since

two years ago.

2007-11-17 14:03:04
302.   underdog
299 I was just going to say the same thing. Got to reserve half your day for that dish. And that's assuming you're not also planning on catching your own shrimp and mussels, which is the way my own family always does it. (Not really.)

Man, Cal's going to be in trouble anyway, if DeSean Jackson's injury is serious.

2007-11-17 14:04:33
303.   underdog
I was also watching some of the Czech Republic vs Slovakia match on Fox Soccer, in the battle of former nations now divided.
2007-11-17 14:05:19
304.   Izzy
Were you thinking Kemp has a better arm than Ethier based on observation, or some other reason? It was said so matter of factly, I assume there is a reasoning behind it that I haven't heard before. I don't think it is that important, execpt in determining who plays what position.
2007-11-17 14:08:30
305.   natepurcell

Can't be serious.

2007-11-17 14:15:17
306.   underdog
I think we all dismissed that Chicago joker's ideas as ludicrous here already (he wrote the same thing a few days ago). I wouldn't worry about it Nate. He won the Evan Grant Silly Rumormonger Award for the month.
2007-11-17 14:17:49
307.   Paul Scott
305 Horrifying if true. I can certainly see Ned as interested in Crede. That said, the reporter was sloppy on a number of facts ("outfielder James Loney"), so even if I were the sort inclined to believe rumors, this reporter has credibility issues with his research.
2007-11-17 14:19:01
308.   D4P
I'd be surprised if a Kemp/Loney type were included in the deal, but I wouldn't be at all surprised in Ned were interested in Crede.

Abreu and Pierre for Crede would be perfectly fine with me. Then we could dump Crede and give the starting 3B job to LaRoche.

But that's just crazy talk.

2007-11-17 14:21:55
309.   natepurcell

Id rather trae Pierre + whoever for Garland or Pierre straight up for Contreras.

At least with Contreras, he might be decent in the pen.

2007-11-17 14:22:14
310.   Bob Timmermann
Tennessee, quaterbacked by a relative of Danny Ainge, pulls out a win 25-24.

I am not too proud to pander to everyone's (well except for one person) dislike of Danny Ainge.

2007-11-17 14:23:42
311.   D4P
Yeah. I guess I'm just hoping that the Crede trade includes Pierre instead of someone we actually care about.
2007-11-17 14:31:08
312.   fiddlestick
Trade from the same group of prospects to get Crede so the WSox can trade them to FLA for Cabrera?

I wish I could draw a paycheck while babbling into a keyboard.

2007-11-17 14:39:52
313.   Ghost of Carlos Perez
Wow, I've never seen that before. Did he at least get a warning?
2007-11-17 14:40:56
314.   Bob Timmermann
He had in his previous lives. He's been reincarnated more often than Shirley MacLaine.
2007-11-17 14:55:44
315.   Johnson
305 I'd say it's downright silly. First he suggests that (Billingsley aside) the ChiSox can get two of our good young'uns for Crede. Then, they can turn around and trade one of the two they get for Crede and get Cabrera? He doesn't mention adding any other players in on the Cabrera deal, so I assume he thinks that one will get it done.

This is Cabrera...costing less than Crede. That is silly. This is Cabrera, whom reports out of Florida are valuing at something like four good young players, not one. I would guess that if Cabrera could be had for one good young player that it would be a done deal and he'd be a Dodger even if that player were Kershaw/Kemp/Pick Your Favorite. Without any silly Joe Crede business on the side.

Some Hot Stove reports worry me - because I don't have a lot of faith in Coletti not making a net negative move. I guess I don't really trust him to stand pat when standing pat is the right move. But this report? Not so much.

2007-11-17 15:00:46
316.   silverwidow
I just read a stupid rumor about Santana and Mauer being traded to the Mets.

Supposedly has something to do with Torreabla talks breaking down.

2007-11-17 15:02:16
317.   Bob Timmermann
I never thought I would read the words "Torrealba talks breaking down."

Torrealba should be grateful that any team is willing to overpay him for last season.

2007-11-17 15:12:33
318.   jasonungar07
If the primary goal is winning isn't the reason (if you are ownership) you spend that much on a coach is for him to evaluate the roster (and maybe even help in shaping it) and then play the players he feels will give the team the best chance to win?

I realize ANY coach should do this, but fact is we just got a new exspensive coach!

So this should be interesting. Most here feel as of before last season we had 3-4 better Ofer to those who wound up playing.

2007-11-17 15:38:45
319.   Marty
I don't think that was Blue Tahoe. Even he wrote better than that.
2007-11-17 15:39:26
320.   Marty
I wonder how Mr. and Mrs. Kuvula are doing.
2007-11-17 15:42:17
321.   Bob Timmermann
Do you have a sputtering Pac-10 football program?

If so, please call Jeff Tedford. He'll fix you right up.

2007-11-17 16:18:39
322.   gpellamjr
319 I think it was Simon Magus.
2007-11-17 16:23:32
323.   Daniel Zappala
BYU 35, Wyoming 10.

Also, USU snapped a 16-game losing streak.

2007-11-17 16:32:14
324.   Bob Timmermann
Daniel is gearing up for the Beehive Boot!
2007-11-17 16:33:28
325.   Megaballs
You wanna talk about worried...Ned Flanders was about to consumate a deal, but got "bait and switched". What kind of deal almost went down?

I wanna like Flanders but if Pierre was signed because
a/ no depth in organization at CF
b/ No one available with Matthews gone

Why not sign Lofton to a 1 year deal November 2006? Same guy, albeit with better Slug and OBP for less money and commitment, knowing at least Hunter and A.Jones would be FA's after '07 season? Couldn't wait a year? Money burning a hole in your pocket? Lofton even helped you get to the playoffs...
Will he trade Pierre, eat $16-20 Mil of the remaining $36mil and then add Jones,Rowand,Hunter? This is General Managing? I KNOW Depo and Evans thought in terms of year two, year three, but this guy...

2007-11-17 16:45:27
326.   Megaballs
That joker at the Herald with Crede rumors has no credibility...try this

"If the Sox do land Cabrera to play left and a new starting center fielder in free agency, like Torii Hunter or Aaron Rowand, their lineup starts to look rather imposing"

Basically, the rather tight White Sox, if they add the most coveted trade available player and pay him $10mil a year to start, plus add a $15mil a year guy...wouldn't ANY team start to look imposing with those two and $25-$35mil a year in 2-5 years of commitment?
Hope that guy is a volunteer reporter...

2007-11-17 16:55:11
327.   Daniel Zappala
324 It counts for 10 points in the Deseret First Duel!

2007-11-17 17:01:23
328.   Bob Timmermann
USC and UCLA's competition is the Lexus Gauntlet.
2007-11-17 17:02:16
329.   Bluebleeder87

your triglycerides are gonna be off the charts today BHSportsguy.

2007-11-17 17:12:15
330.   natepurcell

so theres a picture of Andy Laroche next to a Keith Law article, basically insinuating the Dodgers think Laroche is "trash".

of course, its behind the pay wall.

2007-11-17 17:12:41
331.   Bluebleeder87
That's pretty cool Alex Rodriguez has this guy [ ] for sound business advice.
2007-11-17 17:17:23
332.   Bob Timmermann
I will excerpt the relevant part:

Andy LaRoche, third base, Los Angeles Dodgers
The Dodgers have apparently decided that 93 at-bats constitute enough of an audition, because they're looking at other third-base options rather than giving LaRoche (who hit .309/.399/.589 in Las Vegas this year) a full-time shot at the job in 2008. LaRoche is a passable defender at third -- he'll never be plus but won't have to move off the position -- and his bat is well above-average for the hot corner. His power has improved over the past year, and his plate discipline is outstanding. He's the type of player the Giants tended to undervalue while Ned Colletti was there, and we're seeing some evidence that Colletti has brought that philosophy to L.A.

2007-11-17 17:19:37
333.   underdog
330 I'm afraid to even ask, but does anyone have ESPNInsider access who can sum that all up for us? I have a feeling LaRoche isn't a big part of that article, but who knows? (Or cares, I guess.)

In the newest Onion, on their Sports page, under "Also In This Issue": "Scott Boras Laughing Maniacally At Old Episode of Arli$$."

Also: "Yankess Liken A-Rod's Growing Greed to Kino from Steinbeck's 'The Pearl'"

2007-11-17 17:20:14
334.   Eric Stephen
I just finished watching "The Rivalry" documentary on HBO regarding Michigan V. Ohio State, and it was very good.

The best part, however, was that it featured perhaps the worst goatee in human history, sported by Aaron Marshall of the Cleveland Plain Dealer. I have no words to describe it.

2007-11-17 17:20:36
335.   Bluebleeder87
I just read up on Warren Buffett. It's actually pretty admirable how he lives his life, really cool.
2007-11-17 17:21:03
336.   underdog
Ah, I should've waited for Bob to come to the rescue. Depressing, if true. Although I also got the sense that Colletti and Co. were higher on LaRoche than we thought, and it's one thing to want Cabrera or ARod, but the Crede type rumors just sound bogus to me. But I suppose we'll see...
2007-11-17 17:21:59
337.   Bob Timmermann
The other 9 players mentioned are:
David DeJesus
Adam Lind
Jonny Gomes
Cliff Lee
Ben Broussard
Luke Scott
Matt Murton
Coco Crisp
Gerald Laird
2007-11-17 17:26:48
338.   D4P
Where has LaRoche generally ranked among our prospects? From what I can tell, he's probably the best young hitter we have.
2007-11-17 17:32:58
339.   regfairfield
I love that the Daily Herald thinks not only thinks that they could get a huge package for Crede, but that they would only have to send half of it away for Miguel.
2007-11-17 17:33:12
340.   Eric Stephen
Here are LaRoche's rankings within the Dodger organization per Baseball America:

2004 - 8th
2005 - 5th
2006 - 2nd
2007 - 1st

The Dodger team rankings were 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, & 6th in all of baseball during those years.

2007-11-17 17:34:41
341.   Bob Timmermann
If the Dodgers want a third baseman with a history of back problems wouldn't LaRoche just be cheaper.
2007-11-17 17:36:05
342.   regfairfield

2007: 1
2006: 2 (Behind Bills, ahead of Martin, Broxton and Kemp)
2005: 5

2007-11-17 17:37:25
343.   D4P
It must be said:

LaRoche is underrated
Kemp is overrated

That's not to say Kemp sucks or anything. He's probably my favorite player on the squad. But there seems to be a disconnect out there between how the two players are viewed. LaRoche has better power and discipline than Kemp, and he plays a (slightly) tougher defensive position.

2007-11-17 17:39:40
344.   Eric Stephen
343 Part of Kemp's allure is his higher ceiling. He's younger than the other "prospects" and if you squint you can see Vlad Guerrero out there.
2007-11-17 17:39:53
345.   ToyCannon
More Giants for the Dodgers:
"The Dodgers also confirmed reports that general manager Ned Colletti hired another link to his days as a Giants official, hiring San Francisco international scouting director Rick Ragazzo as a special assistant."

Special Assistant, the Dodger front office is getting comical.

2007-11-17 17:40:47
346.   regfairfield
343 I think a lot of it has to do with how they look out on the field. Even when Kemp stinks he looks impressive. Seeing a big guy like that fly down the line looks impressive, and his swing looks great even if he's swinging at a bad ball.

When LaRoche stinks, well, he doesn't have looks to fall back on. He's not all that impressive physically, and isn't a huge tools guy. He just has amazing discipline and the ability to hit line drives all over the field. Plate discipline gets no one excited just by looking at it, so if his swing gets untracked, he does look pretty bad.

2007-11-17 17:41:17
347.   Bob Timmermann
Is Ragazzao a special assistant general manager or a special assistant TO the general manager?
2007-11-17 17:41:25
348.   Eric Stephen
Special Assistant to the General Manager!
2007-11-17 17:41:57
349.   Eric Stephen
8 seconds. It's not just for rodeo anymore.
2007-11-17 17:42:06
350.   natepurcell

I would say both are underrated by the Dodgers by all the rumors we hear of how the Dodgers are including them in all these packages.

and...the trash can.

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-11-17 17:42:18
351.   D4P
Special Assistant: Position created for sole purpose of giving crony a high-paying job.
2007-11-17 17:43:43
352.   Eric Stephen
Kemp moves trash cans at a much more accelerated level than LaRoche. :)
2007-11-17 17:46:06
353.   Bob Timmermann
But was Kemp described earlier as an "untouchable" because:
1) the Dodgers valued him too highly
2) other teams don't like him and he's like the lowest caste of Indian society
3) he looks like Robert Stack
2007-11-17 17:48:55
354.   Sam DC
I don't know why this thought came to me this evening. But it did.

The Mariners should sell high on JJ Putz. The guy is 30. He is under contract for two more years. He has put up two incredible seasons. But that follows a few merely good seasons.

How likely is he to maintain after breaking out at age 29?

How much would the Ed Wades of the world overpay for the best closer in the AL?

2007-11-17 17:50:28
355.   Bob Timmermann
If the Yankees want to pay Mariano Rivera $15 million per year, what should Putz fetch on the open market?
2007-11-17 17:51:32
356.   ToyCannon
On the plus side if Ragazzo was responsible for international scouting then he was the guy who reeled in Angel Villalona who many consider the best teenage prospect in baseball.
Plus another Italian in the mix. If Andy was only Italian instead of Mexican he'd be a shoe-in for 3rd base.
2007-11-17 17:51:57
357.   regfairfield
I think Kemp is more untouchable than LaRoche, because his ceiling his huge. But, I also think LaRoche's floor is higher. If Kemp doesn't improve his plate discipline, he could become like Vernon Wells who is great if he hits .300, but can also turn in years like .269/.320/.463
2007-11-17 17:53:12
358.   regfairfield
354 I'm pretty sure Putz's breakout is because he learned a new pitch. He was a fantasy mainstay for me for a couple years that I gave up on in 2006 because he never lived up to his stuff. Once he developed his split, he's been untouchable.
2007-11-17 17:56:07
359.   Bob Timmermann
I'm hoping that Texas Tech is able to bring disappointment to the Stoops family tonight.

The Stoops family must pay for its sins.

2007-11-17 17:57:11
360.   Sam DC
358 I guess it depends how far away from seriously contending you think the Mariners are. If you think they are likely for the playoffs this year and/or next, you'd keep him. If you think they are further away and ought be rebuilding, they should sell.

I realize they were nominally in it for a good chunk of the season, but they just don't seem that close to me. I suppose in a four-team division, you're always somewhat close.

2007-11-17 17:59:49
361.   Bob Timmermann
I think the last six weeks of the season were indicative of how good the Mariners are. That offense needs some help. Too much Jose Vidro.
2007-11-17 18:02:56
362.   regfairfield
360 True. The Mariners weren't a great team last year, just way overplayed their Pythagorean record. I doubt this is something that Bill Bavasi would realize though.

Still, with some adjustments the lineup can become much more effective. Getting Adam Jones and Wladmir Balentin some at bats makes the offense much more potent. Still doesn't solve giant holes like Jose Lopez, Vidro, and Richie Sexson, but it's a start.

2007-11-17 18:04:16
363.   underdog
356 "Tommy, I'd like you to meet our third baseman of the future, Andy LaRocci."
Tommy: "Where have you been all my life! Get out there and show us what ya got, m'boy!"
2007-11-17 18:06:55
364.   Bob Timmermann
Sexson's 84 OPS+ with 21 homers was not the lowest alltime for a player with more 20 or more homers in a season.

That honor belongs to our very own Marquis Grissom in 2001 with an OPS+ of 71 with 21 homers.

Grissom drew 16 walks that season.

And struck out 107 times.

2007-11-17 18:14:16
365.   D4P
Marquis had 5 seasons with 20+ HRs, and OPSplussed less than 100 in 3 of them.

His OBP in 2001 was a remarkable .250

2007-11-17 18:18:07
366.   Bob Timmermann
But he was no Tom Goodwin or McKay Christensen.
2007-11-17 18:21:35
367.   D4P
Was Tom Goodwin a McKay Christensen?

Put another way, was McKay Christensen a Tom Goodwin?

2007-11-17 18:28:33
368.   Icaros
I remember being furious the day McKay Christensen was released.

I also remember thinking Slava Medvedenko could develop into a solid power forward.

I'm better now.

2007-11-17 18:30:41
369.   ToyCannon
Funny how Slava doesn't come up when discussing the genius that was Jerry West.
2007-11-17 18:31:34
370.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers ended up giving the center field job to Dave Roberts, who was a lot better than Christensen.

I remember during the spring there was a three-way competition among Roberts, Christensen, and one other player for the center field job.

Christensen was the presumptive favorite, but he apparently ticked off a lot of the coaches and was sent packing. He wasn't particularly a bad guy, but he didn't take to coaching well.

2007-11-17 18:34:25
371.   Sam DC
How was he with trash cans?
2007-11-17 18:37:50
372.   Bob Timmermann
Christensen was regarded as being too nice. His career was interrupted by a Mormon mission.
2007-11-17 18:38:58
373.   Marty
Texas Tech 27 Oklahoma 7. I love it. How d'ya like them apples Bud Wilkinson?
2007-11-17 18:40:51
374.   arbfuldodger
330 Read the comments on the Law article and saw this gem

"Keith, I saw a trade proposal on another website and wanted to know your thoughts. Chein Ming-Wang to the Dodgers - Loney/Broxton to the Yanks. Is this in any way sensible? The only way I could see this working is if the Yankees then went full bore and pried Santana away from the Twins. I don't know however if the Dodgers would be willing to give up Loney and Broxton for Wang. Thanks. "

wonder if the website he saw it on was

2007-11-17 18:53:49
375.   Sam DC
I feel a little sniffle coming on.

LAT, if you wouldn't mind hitting Juniors for some chix noodle soup, I'll be up a while yet.


2007-11-17 18:55:17
376.   Icaros

Hey, wait your turn. He still hasn't delivered the books he was supposed to get from my ex.

2007-11-17 19:00:58
377.   Andrew Shimmin
The National Book Awards Ceremony is coming up on CSPAN2, right now. No spoilers!
2007-11-17 19:01:38
378.   old dodger fan
Virginia vs Arizona in hoops tonight. Good early season ACC- PAC 10 matchup.
2007-11-17 19:03:02
379.   Sam DC
I'm not entirely sure, but it seems like The Next Iron Chef finale is starting up as well.
2007-11-17 19:03:26
380.   regfairfield
There's a new blog out there:

I'm not overly impressed by his work so far (needs some help on that correlation versus causation thing, also has way to much of a young player fetish, i.e. calling Jeff Kent not an asset to any team) but it shows some nice effort.

2007-11-17 19:04:12
381.   Marty
So, did bhsportsguy make his paella? That's very ambitious. I'm making a roast beef with a mustard-chile rub.
2007-11-17 19:07:02
382.   Marty
I don't think that's Brock's blog.
2007-11-17 19:17:52
383.   Andrew Shimmin
I hate Michael Cunningham.
2007-11-17 19:18:33
384.   Jon Weisman
382 - " I am a Dodger fan who was crushed by Bobby Thompson's home run, was the only fan in my neighborhood that was percipient enough to order World Series tickets in 1959, who enjoyed the Walter O'Malley years, and who has lived in agony "

Sounds like Brock to me :)


2007-11-17 19:19:13
385.   Jon Weisman
384 - That excerpt actually cut off by accident at a most amusing place.
2007-11-17 19:20:15
386.   Andrew Shimmin
That top post is more than four thousand words long. Which makes me suspect Terry A., except I don't think he's old enough.
2007-11-17 19:24:38
387.   Bob Timmermann
Who's Bobby Thompson?
2007-11-17 19:24:51
388.   Kevin Lewis
I have had the worst install experience with Leopard this weekend. I am tired of staring at computer screens.

That's all till tomorrow


2007-11-17 19:28:28
389.   Bluebleeder87

Brock wrote about our DT gathering & did an absolute awesome job, I was like wow dude, you can write some good stuff!

2007-11-17 19:30:24
390.   Jon Weisman
386 - Terry's Bench Coach blog was one of my favorites. It was a shame when that went away.

387 - I'm forgiving the typo, because no one here questioned what the heck the headline of this post meant.

New post up top.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.