so why couldn't we have offered wolf a similar deal? it's $4 mill with incentives? that's not bad at all. why mess about with kuroda et al., when we already had wolf? and he's a local boy who always wanted to play for the dodgers, right?

I should have put up a thread for people to discuss the Long Beach State at Saint Louis game yesterday.

Piazza got arbitration? Oakland should have an interesting lineup next year.

why wouldn't the braves offer arbitration to andruw jones? there's no chance he'd take it instead of pursuing free agency, right?

4: right. likewise, why didn't the dodgers offer arb to gonzales? they've made it clear he won't play much while he's claiming he wants to play. so chances are remote he'd accept it. that way, the offer gets us a relatively high pick...

5 Because he'd probably really like an extra seven million as opposed to the terrible contract he'd likely get.

He does have to realize that the market for his services as a starter is very, very small.

I need to pay more attention to my iCal, totally forgot about the game. Though looking up the score, that's probably not a bad thing... it's going to be a long year, but I've got faith in Monson.

7 was for 2

8
Somebody in my family cared about the game:
http://tinyurl.com/2b4w8s

9 - heh, that s at the end of the tinyurl is important, without it, I went to a bad Circuit City search. I was hoping your brother's story would have turned out better for the 49ers, but alas the comeback still fell short.

For all you sunshine soldiers who sensibly went to bed, UH came back all the way last night, went ahead 35-28 with 44 seconds left, then intercepted UW's last gasp pass into the end zone with 3 seconds on the clock.

The newspaper headlines are in 24-pt type.

http://tinyurl.com/3yvvro

That was the Star-Bulletin; here's the Advertiser:

http://tinyurl.com/2b27wv

11 - I stayed up to watch it, heck of a game. I'm glad that Washington didn't save the BCS this year (though they're beating Boise St earlier in the season annoys me). I'm for putting Hawaii in the championship game, I'd love to see whose dime package could keep up with their receivers.

13 I don't mind admitting I was awfully nervous until they got it to within a TD at 28-21 with a full quarter left.

11 i stayed up to watch it! so exciting. hawaii was the only team i like that actually won yesterday. :)

15
Not a big Florida Atlantic fan, eh?

How many Rush brothers are there?

16 'fraid not. i guess i'm USC-neutral-to-positive since my dad went there. and i don't mind the navy middies, or the wolfpack, but i don't LIKE them.

"There was one Internet report last week that the Dodgers rejected a Twins proposal of Santana for Kershaw and Ethier, but a Dodgers source, speaking on the condition of anonymity, vehemently denied that claim. Fact is, had such a deal actually been made available, the Dodgers would have quickly jumped on it."

http://tinyurl.com/2b9p7v

interesting.

The Sox are now willing to give up Ellsbury for Santana. But, it's either him or Lester, not both.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088

It seems that the Yankees or Red Sox don't want Santana as much as they don't want the other team to get him.

Another reason to like Manny Acta:

(Talking about Milledge's bad rep)

"Let me tell you, a lot of those things, it depends on who does it," Acta said. He basically indicated that if it was a more veteran player who had done that, it would have been overlooked. "A lot of you guys want us to be fan friendly, but if you do shake somebody's hand, then it's taken the wrong way. I just thought he was a young kid. He was just excited."

From Barry Svrluga - Nats' beat writer's - blog

19 Colletti continues to say the right things of late -- in that article, he calls Loney and Kemp the middle-of-the-order bats that the Dodgers are looking for, which is right.

It looks like he's actually listening to ARONS!

19-Yeah, it really does seem like Colletti has figured out that the young players weren't the problem. Imagine that.

I was asking my self that same question Vishal but I think Ned made the right decision specially with 2 question marks in Schmidt & Loaiza.

I was suprised, I really expected him to re-sign for one year an take a large cut, because he said he loved playing for his hometown team, Well I guess he changed his mine. Good Luck Wolfman.

Ohio State just knocked UCSB out of Sweet 16 in futbol.

Damn you, Buckeyes!!
I hate Ohio State! Don't even deserve BCS title game.

27
The amount of sympathy I have for you is not measurable. When it comes to Gauchos soccer, I have only antipathy.

I may just go and dump a soccer goal in the ocean to celebrate Ohio State's glorious win!

23, 24

It does seem like Coletti is saying the right things of late, by acknowledging the younger players and naming them in quotes. I just hope that this is something that he follows from here and in the future. More input from Logan White and Kim Ng would be awesome.

27 I saw the end of that game online, Train. (Came home from own soccer game to follow it.) :-( Went to overtime, OSU scored a late goal in the 2nd OT. Crud. Not easy to have to go to OSU. Not sure why the defending champs had to travel in their second game, but that's the bias for Big Ten over Big West for ya.

Good luck today!

I'm Tivoing the afternoon game to spend the rest of the day with my visiting mom and stepfather, hoping a trip to the MOMA will get my mind off football.

Ohio State was a 5 seed and UCSB was a 12 seed.

Btw, 21 is exactly right. It's like the Sox and Yanks are playing a game of chicken with each other, and one of them will swerve at the last minute. Not that getting Johan Santana is the same as a head-on collision... that's sort of where my analogy dies. But anyway, they're clearly trying to up the ante for the other team. Will be interesting to see who pulls over.

31 Yeah, I meant more that I disagreed with the seedings in some cases. But anyway, tough to repeat, no matter where you end up having to play.

Maybe I can get (All-American defender) Andy Iro to play for team this winter, now that he's got some time off. I'm sure he has nothing to do.

Alrighty, ciao.

Btw, nice rushing effort today, Detroit Lions. Hip hip! Very impressive.

In women's soccer, #2 seed USC had to play at #4 West Virginia.

That could have been a factor of USC not having a soccer stadium with lights. They do have the Coliseum to use, but it was otherwise occupied this weekend.

32 it would really bug me if one of those two teams ended up with johan santana. even though that's probably how it will end up.

36 - I'm coming to the opinion that until other teams decide to spend like the Yankees and Red Sox, those teams kind of deserve to keep getting all the big name, high priced quality talent. I think the asking prices, all around, have been way too high for the guys on the trading block, but the fact is, there are really only two teams that have "Win World Series" on their to-do-list every year

Not a good day for members of the Taj Gibson Marching and Chowder Society this afternoon.

Buffalo is going to beat Washington 17-16. The Bills went for the "hard 17": five field goals and a safety.

the announcers were talking about a 3 pt free kick in the SD-KC game today, I'm thinking Bob would have liked that.

40
The play-by-play for that game didn't indicate that anybody tried a fair catch free kick.

Joey Harrington's QB rating this season is 79.7.

That's a career high.

Ned has always said the right things (he is a PR guy after all), however, it is his actions that matter.

In an earlier tread I suggested (not that I assume any suggestions would be noticed)that LAD offer Wolf basically the same type of contract that he received from SD. Ned could have risked $4M + $250K for each game started after game #16. However, he was probably too preoccupied with the possible Santana/Cabrera deals. He lost a valuable opportunity to strengthen the rotation at minimal cost.

Ned's record with starting pitchers is very checkered.

Between trades and FA signings Ned has brought in 8 SPs (Seo, Hendrickson, Tomko, Maddux, Wolf, Schmidt, Wells and Loaiza).

In 2006 Seo, Hendrickson, Tomko & Maddux combined for a 18-21 record.

In 2007 Hendrickson, Tomko, Wolf, Schmidt Wells and Loaiza starts resulted in a 23-38 record for the Dodgers, plus Maddux won 2 and lost 1 against the Dodgers.

His acquired SPs have lost far more games for the Dodgers than they have won.

Wolf and Loaiza will probably add significantly to that imbalance in 2008.

41 - they were saying they could, but the kick went about 20 yards past the return men.

4 - 2003 Greg Maddux says hi.

43 - why should the Dodgers, in the second largest market, with 4 million tickets sold, and a ton of revenue be concerned with doing things "at minimal cost"? I'm not saying that cost shouldn't be factored in, but it's not like this franchise is based in Rochester and needs to worry about pay the electric bill next month.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for spending money wisely, but it's about time the Dodgers start acting like a big market team.

it's about time the Dodgers start acting like a big market team

Yeah. Why can't we be the ones giving $90 million to Torii Hunter...?

I'm all for spending money wisely, but it's about time the Dodgers start acting like a big market team.

But when they do that, we end up with Juan Pierre :(

46 I'd much rather follow the Cleveland model than the Yankees model.

44
You can try a fair catch free kick anytime during the game. I've only seen it tried once. Ray Wersching missed.

By a lot.

The Dodgers' problem is that they started acting like a big-market team in the late eighties under Fred Claire, and look where it got us. We're still digging out of that hole. Building up the farm and harvesting it is something the team hasn't done well since the Campanis era.

9 - well one of my co-workers also cared about the game.

He's SLU Sign Guy and runs www.billikens.com.

He's pretty intense about his Billikens.

47 , 48 , 49 - I don't know, maybe I'm just frustrated today (entirely possible) and taking it out on the Dodgers front office (definitely probable).

My point is just that the team is unwilling to spend money on good/great players. That they are content to make a whole bunch of money without putting a good product on the field, and ask the Rams and Raiders just how well that business model works in southern California...

37 i don't get that at all. they deserve to keep all the talent because they can afford it, due to the natural, built-in advantages that come with being historic franchises with established fanbases in large markets with huge revenues? and teams like, i dunno, tampa bay and san diego don't deserve a shot at acquiring or keeping talented players? i think it's absolutely horrid that only two teams can reasonably EXPECT to compete for the world series year in and year out. sure, a team like the marlins could spend more on payroll than $19 million or whatever they put forth this year, but even if every team had a $150 million salary, it would just bid up the prices from the bottom. there is a limited supply of talent, and the richest teams will be able to pay the most. it's not that the yankees and red sox simply WANT to win more than the other teams. they just have more resources.

54 i guess, in a nutshell, you gotta spend money to make money, but you gotta have money to spend money to make money.

54 - my point is that every time there is talk of a big free agent or trade, the first two teams mentioned are the Yanks and the Sox. They are the only two teams that seem willing to pursue these guys. And they get them because they are willing to pay the price. If the other teams were actually willing to pay the price, this wouldn't be an issue. But no one else wants to pay for the talent.

I would much more prefer a situation where there are 10 legit contenders every year. But until teams not in Boston and New York decide to start spending the money, then it's not going to happen.

56 my point is that i think you are confusing "willing" with "able". if the yanks lost a few prospects to get santana, instead of having to depend on the likes of phil hughes and ian kennedy in the next few years, they'll just snap up bedard and kazmir to fill their rotation when they hit free agency. having a ton of money is a good insurance policy.

57 - my last thought on the point is only that, I find it hard to believe that the Dodgers don't have a ton of money also. But perhaps I am wrong and the Dodgers are financially no better off than the Royals, Rays, or Marlins.

58 i won't argue with you that the dodgers, as a large market team, should be able to exploit their resources better. especially considering they also have a ton of wealth in the farm system which the yanks and sox don't have.

i was just responding to what seemed to be your assertion in 37 that the 2 richest teams "deserve" to have all the best talent because they can most easily afford it.

Anyone wanting to get the cd of the 9/3/69 Dodger/Met game from Baseball Direct in time for Xmas should order it by mid December. I emailed Andy Holden at Baseball Direct yesterday, and he informed me that for orders from the lower 48 of the USA, a mid December internet order should allow sufficient time for Christmas delivery. As Jon so ably conveyed in his SI.com article, it really is an exceptional broadcast by Vin.

Stan from Tacoma

I don't think the Dodgers will miss Randy Wolf. That's not to say he might not have his share of good starts, but I don't see him giving the team much that they can't get from the current in-house options.

Would it be correct to say Kemp > Ellsbury? if so would you do a Kemp, Broxton deal for Santanna?All things being even close to equal, I would have to think the twins would prefer a Dodger(NL) offer over any Boston or Yankee offer. I have to think the dodgers could do a slightly less attractive offer than either of those two and win. Although The Garza/Young trade makes me think that twins have to have a top pitching prospect in return.

38 It's kind of been a bad year for the Taj Gibson Marching and Chowder Society, hasn't it? Wonder if he now regrets not going to the draft.

Meanwhile, O.J. Mayo was supposed to be the best freshman in the country and it turns out he's not even the best freshman on his own team. His shot selection is just horrible.

62

I think Ellsbury is so overrated now.

59 - ah, ok, I get what you're saying. Bad choice of words on my part. I think what I meant to say was that the other teams don't deserve to get those players until they are willing to step up and pay. If that makes more sense.

Ultimately, it comes down to the smart allocation of resources for all teams.

62 There's basically no question that Kemp is a better player than Ellsbury, but Ellsbury probably has more trade value. That's because whoever trades a pitcher like Santana would like to get famous players in return, since the fans and the media will evaluate the trade based on whether the beat writers who cover the team have heard of the prospects they get in return. And everybody knows who Ellsbury and Lester are since they've gotten a lot of face time on FOX. Getting one of them in a trade would make the trade much easier for the Twins to swallow PR-wise, even if they don't turn out to be half as good as Kemp.

I think that Loaiza is this years Randy Wolf, basically making the same salary as Wolf did. Maybe Wolf goes out and has a decent year for the Padres, but if Ned had signed Wolf after his history of arm problems, he would look real bad if Wolf was hurt again. As a general manager, he would have to answer the question of "why did you resign a guy who was at best a 3-4 slot starter for you last year and only pitched half the year due to injury?" Loaiza is in the same boat this year. He has won over a hundred games in his career, and if he is healthy, has a shot at winning 10-15 games for them. Signing a pitcher is always more of a risk than signing a hitter, so in essence I think every GM needs a bit of luck when it comes to signing pitchers. Saito for example.

Inside Angels-Marlins talks

>> The Angels' big offer for young hitting star Miguel Cabrera included top young hitter Howie Kendrick, young catcher Jeff Mathis, one of two coveted young pitchers -- Nick Adenhart or Ervin Santana -- plus an additional pitcher prospect described as a "mid-level'' talent, SI.com has learned.

The Angels thought that was the winning bid several days ago. But when Florida came back to the Angels and demanded that both Adenhart and Santana be included with Kendrick and Mathis, the deal fell apart. <<

http://tinyurl.com/25ssxm

Because no thread on DT is really, truly complete without a reference to Juan Pierre.

Bill James talks clutch hitting and the data is not friendly to one of the Dodgers: http://tinyurl.com/2rjzjx

Ned's big splash at the winter meetings will be Dan Haren. Just a gut feeling. Unfortunately, Chad would probably go in that scenario.

69 (psst! handball thread, comment 90)

70 i worry he'll canonball us with joe blanton. blanton is okay, but not exciting in any way. if we're trading prospects for pitching, i want an ace like haren. or hell, even someone with huge upside but injury concerns like harden.

So here's a little scouting report on the Longhorns for those who haven't seen them play much. They have what is without a doubt the best backcourt in the nation with the 3-man tandem of Augustin, Abrams, and Mason. However, the front line is undersized, underskilled, and lacks depth; I fear Love, Mata-Real, and Aboya will eat them for lunch.

Starters

PG D.J. Augustin (#14) - My pick as the best point guard in the country. Doesn't quite have the burning speed of a Collison or a Ty Lawson, but probably has superior basketball instincts at this point. Able to display an extra burst of speed whenever he needs it, and is an outstanding passer who makes remarkably few mistakes. Not the world's greatest jump shooter but will drain the 3 if you leave him open. The best way to defend him is to overplay him to keep him from touching the ball in the first place, or, failing that, to double team him.

SG A.J. Abrams (#3) - Until this year, was a fairly one-dimensional (but prolific) three-point shooter a la J.J. Redick. Has now improved his mid-range game and drives to the basket more. Faster but shorter than your typical 2-guard. Is an outstanding defender in terms of staying with and harassing his man, but you can shoot over him because he's so short (listed at 5'11", but actually around 5'9").

SG Justin Mason (#24) - An oustanding all-around player and perhaps the most underrated player in the Big 12. An unbelievable defender, he can shut down players of any height or position. Like Augustin, he's not a pure outside shooter but will hit it if you leave it open. Can create off the dribble, is a fantastic passer, makes very few mistakes and is a good rebounder for a 6-2 guy.

SF/PF Damion James (#5) - An undersized (6-7) power forward who has expanded his game this year to include more wing skills. Can hit the jumper out to 12-15 feet, is a very aggressive rebounder and an extremely physical player who often finds himself in foul trouble. Very inconsistent from game to game, but on his good days he can be the best player on the floor.

C Conor Atchley (#32) - Unathletic big guy who makes up for physical awkwardness by being an extremely intelligent player. He's taken a big leap forward this year; he'll never be a star, but he's no longer the liability in the lineup that he used to be. Has a few decent post moves and really crashes the offensive boards. Will make the 3 if you let him.

BENCH

C Dexter Pittman (#34) - 6-foot-10 monster who over the past calendar year has slimmed down from 375 pounds to 300. Brutally physical inside player with amazing footwork in the post for someone his size. Mistake prone and foul prone, and is limited to short bursts of playing time by his lack of conditioning.

F Alexis Wangmene (#15) - Skinny, 6-7, long armed freshman from Cameroon. A highly touted but very raw recruit who could become the next Mbah a Moute when he grows up. Not quite ready for prime time yet, but he'll spell Atchley and James, maybe getting some blocked shots and absorbing some fouls.

F/C Clint Chapman (#53) - A highly touted recruit out of Oregon. Still skinny and raw; hasn't played much and hasn't showed much when he's played.

SG - J.D. Lewis (#4) - The poor man's Michael Roll. 3-point specialist with limited physical skills who will get little if any playing time.

Dogus Balbay and Harrison Smith are backup guards who will play only if Augustin and Abrams get in foul trouble. Frontcourt depth is very limited because C Matt Hill is out with a foot injury and star freshman forward Gary Johnson, one of the most highly recruited big men in the nation, was diagnosed with a heart defect and is still awaiting clearance from his doctors to play with a defibrillator.

73
The game starts at 5 pm out here. Kevin Love has already had lunch. He could be out for an early bird special.

70- No way he trades Billingsly for anyone....if Ned pulls a big name then it will be at the cost of Kemp....

66 would the twins really care about PR as much to take a lesser offer in the minds of the public? thought the twins FO was smarter than that (big papi excluded) I would think santanna mowing down twins would be a bigger hit in the PR dept plus you get the actual better players with a dodger trade.

I know I'm biased but I think dodgers young stars and prospects already out shine both NY and Bos. Give me Billz, Loney, Martin, Kemp, Minotaur, Laroche broxton over lester, ellsbury bucholz pedroia papelbon or hughes, IPK, Melky, Cano , joba, wang. I know that is not apples to apples but those are the young stars and upper tier prospects.

Yanks/Sox prospects are notoriously overrated....thats what coverage does......If I was Minny I would take Hughes, Melky and ask for Betimit to be thrown in.....

I still think they should insist on Cano though...

To be fair, Dodgers prospects are also notoriously overrated -- something that's only changed in the last two years.

I'm not worried at all about Billingsley being traded.

73 "An undersized (6-7)..."

Only in basketball would a human being that tall be considered undersized. That's 9 inches taller than I am, and at 5'10" I think I'm slightly above the American average for men.

Everything's relative.

I do not see the point of giving up Bills/Kemp for another pitcher/hitter since it does not really improve the club in any dramatic fashion. Holes would still need to be filled.

Haren is not Santana.

Ned has his rotation "deep" depth with Schmidt/Kuo/Loaiza/McDonald/Houlton. Two of them should be healthy enough to be a #4 & #5.

If an opportunity arose to aquire someone like Bedard then trade anyone except Bills/Broxton/Kemp/Loney/LaRoche/Kershaw. We fail to appreciate that our #10-#20 prospects are as good or better than many other teams #1-#10.

Wolf will probably be as good or better than Loaiza in 2008. It just annoys me that everytime we give up a pitcher SD picks him up. Tomko I did not mind, but Maddux did hurt us and Wolf can hurt us if he is indeed healthy.

80
You're seven inches shorter than I am. Hence, you're short. Remember, I'm the standard by which others are judged.

82 Snort!

73 Thanks for the scouting report. I just started school again, at UT, and even though I went to zero football games, I love college basketball, so I am going to try to see a few games. Its probably a better choice for me at this point than going out on 6th street again.

Whats up with all the highly touted freshmen out of Oregon and none of them actually going to Oregon? Between Love, the guy at Duke, and this guy, it looks like Ernie Kent hasn't quite mastered the "its good to be by family" sales pitch? Its not like Oregon is a bad team either, I watched them absolutely spank SC last year at the Staples Center.

51
what about the 5 straight ROY awards?

66
I'm pretty sure Kemp has stepped into the "famous prospect/player" spotlight.

would you all agree that not including Kemp/LaRoche/Ethier/Loney/Martin/Broxton/Bills (who i dont consider prospects anymore) we have one of the stronger collections of prospects still?

Even if Captain Kershaw (or w/e ya'll dubbed him) is untouchable we should still have the minor league talent to land a Blanton type player.

People, This is the eve of a big night. The Dodgers are at a fork in the road. What road will Colletti & Co take. The High road and deal with free agency & trades or the Low road, stick with the youth movement and go with the homegrown personel. If they choose the High road I hope they go all the way, by not being afraid to gamble with the future and by not being cheapskates. If they take the Low road, they have to be patient and give everybody a chance. I tell you I'm with them, which ever road they choose. I just hope they don't go in between and start picking up the cheap used experience.

No love for Arizona's upset win over Texas A&M today? I forgot it was on so I only saw the second half, but luckily that was probably the best half of basketball they've played all year. Jerryd Bayless has already made huge strides in becoming the #2 scoring option on the team.

88 I don't get how keeping elite talent is considered the "low road."

90 I agree. It's like buying an over-priced tomato with no flavor at the supermarket, vs. growing your own cheap amazingly good-tasting ones in your back yard.

It's like buying an over-priced tomato with no flavor at the supermarket, vs. growing your own cheap amazingly good-tasting ones in your back yard

Or buying one at the CornuCO-OPia.

"Those are tomatoes? I thought they were heaven balls!"

The Dodgers are acting like a "big market club." The difference is we don't have another "big-market club" in our division that we feel the need to one-up. Nor have we gotten within one game of the World Series against another "big market club." The Yankees and Red Sox have been in that dance for most of this decade. The Angels are horning their way in as well.

If all goes well, the Dodgers might reach the latter situation against the Mets or Cubs (or both) one day soon. At that point, we'll compete with the Yankees and Red Sox for talent like Kazmir. We can and will, but not until we need to. Not until we're demonstrably good enough for an elite, high-priced player to make the all-important leap.

I did have one brainstorm, however. Maybe if we can steal Santana away from the Yankees and Red Sox, they'll show their appreciation by sending us Hughes and Buchholz, just for keeping Santana away from them.

90 In the old Scots tune, the high road is not necessarily better than the low road. In fact, taking the low road gets me to Scotland afore ye.

Sadly, my and my true love will never meet again on the bonnie, bonnie banks of Loch Lomand. No matter which road ye and I take.