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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Parsing the Matt Kemp-Erik Bedard Rumor
2007-12-04 12:43
by Jon Weisman

Monday, it was Andruw Jones. Today it is Erik Bedard.

Yep, the Hot Stove League, de facto sponsored by Oscar Mayer Bologna, is in full swing. And they just keep pouring on the mustard until we gag.

The latest exhibit, from Amy Nelson of

The Orioles and Dodgers may be close on a deal that will send left-hander Erik Bedard to Los Angeles, a baseball source said. The O's are in need of a center fielder and a closer who can play at the major league level, and the Dodgers seem willing to part with outfielder Matt Kemp and reliever Jonathan Broxton, who could come in a close in lieu of Chris Ray, out for the year after Tommy John surgery. "They want Bedard bad," said the source.

So, let's look closely at this.

The two teams "may be close" to a deal. No one can confirm that they're actually close. One source says that they might be. And as the "they" in the single, four-word quote indicates, that source is from outside the Dodger organization.

So what you're left with is just a run-of-the-mill rumor, one that might come true but really has no credibility and is most likely calculated to drive up interest in Bedard.

This comes a day after a widely circulated ESPN rumor that the Dodgers had offered Andruw Jones a two-year, $32 million contract was debunked mere hours later.

In the past two weeks, members of the mainstream press like Bill Conlin and Stephen A. Smith have been renewing across-the-board condemnations of bloggers for their irresponsibility, This coming from a world where irresponsibility is not only welcomed, but expected. Professional reporters not only pay no price for spreading rumors, for being the willing mouthpieces for organizations with agendas – they are encouraged to do so.

Fortunately, a chunk of the baseball reporting world has embraced bloggers, which is a good thing. Because a many bloggers seek the truth – not just random words disguised as truth. It's an example some people could stand to follow.

Meanwhile, again I remind Dodger Thoughts readers, if you want to have fun with rumors, have fun with them. Feel free to discuss them, but don't get riled up about them when most of them are simply, inevitably, false.

Comments (591)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-12-04 13:16:31
1.   Xeifrank
MSM is losing $viewership$ to bloggers, as they should. It's amusing to watch them grasp for straws. Somebody must feel threatened? vr, Xei
2007-12-04 13:19:00
2.   Penarol1916
So were there any particularly interesting tidbits from today's BA chat, or is it still going on?
2007-12-04 13:19:04
3.   kinbote
Give 'em heck, Jon. I'll still never forgive Fox for reporting the Randy Johnson-to-L.A. blockbuster as a done deal. Next thing you know, they'll be calling the presidential elections early too ;)
2007-12-04 13:19:20
4.   bhsportsguy
BTW - If you want to see a board in near implosion, UCLA boards are going off every rumor re their next coach.
2007-12-04 13:19:51
5.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Along these lines, from the ESPN blog:

3:34 p.m., from Buster Olney
• The Blue Jays continue to talk with the Orioles about left-hander Erik Bedard. Toronto probably has the young pitching to anchor a deal.

2007-12-04 13:20:51
6.   bhsportsguy
5 Also, Red Sox at a 5th player in the Santana deal and the Angels are back supposedly in the mix for Cabrera.
2007-12-04 13:21:07
7.   Marty
Actually the Hot Stove League is brought to you by Vitajex.

Vitajex, what you doin to me?

2007-12-04 13:22:16
8.   ToyCannon
For what it's worth Keith Law felt that Bedard would be the best player to target between MCAB, Johan, and Haren.

I'm loving Hot Stove, but the overreactions to rumors is a bit strange. I overreacted to the Betemit deal, but at least it was a real deal.

2007-12-04 13:23:04
9.   trainwreck
I found the basketball board after the Texas loss to be much worse.
2007-12-04 13:23:32
10.   still bevens
The thing that depresses me about the Hot Stove is that its pretty much the end of constant baseball news until pitchers and catchers report.
2007-12-04 13:26:31
11.   paranoidandroid
I have the jitters today like an expectant father.

Please don't trade Kemp!

2007-12-04 13:26:50
12.   Disabled List
Rumormongering as all we have instead of actual news, or actual baseball. There's a "thrill of victory, agony of defeat" element to it that's very similar to following a game. Throw in the fact that all the armchair GMs who post here honestly believe that they could do a better job than Ned Colletti, and it's no wonder there's trenchant breast-beating about every morsel of information, no matter how real or bogus.

I shall now return to tearing my hair out by the fistful. Thank you.

2007-12-04 13:26:59
13.   Jon Weisman
Tony Jackson:

"The rumor of the hour, at least where your hometown Dodgers are concerned, seems to be that they are coveting Baltimore's Erik Bedard and that there is a possible deal in the works that would send Jonathan Broxton and Matt Kemp to the Orioles. I find that hard to believe, mostly that the Dodgers would part with Broxton at a time when they are about to enter the season with a 38-year-old closer, but I'm running it down anyway."

I'm not sure that Jackson has pinned down the top reason for not believing the rumor, but it's not as if he thinks it's happening.

2007-12-04 13:27:15
14.   Pedro4DeShields
I hope you're right. Can someone explain why Matt Kemp is even being discussed (if, in fact, he is). Isn't Kemp's potential too high to risk trading? It's one thing if a bat like Cabrera's comes back in the deal, but trading Kemp and signing someone like Andruw Jones makes no sense.
2007-12-04 13:27:31
15.   paranoidandroid
"There's nothing I'm afraid of like scared people" -- Robert Frost

Uh... I'm a bit scared today.

2007-12-04 13:28:44
16.   Jon Weisman
12 - "There's a "thrill of victory, agony of defeat" element to it that's very similar to following a game."

If the game involved runs that were reported to have scored but turned out not really to have scored.

2007-12-04 13:29:03
17.   bhsportsguy
9 Really, I guess from the perspective of why is everyone so upset but this is interesting only because there is no real basis of any of the information except from "insiders" and certainly not by those who run the site.
2007-12-04 13:29:17
18.   paranoidandroid
Would Gagne come back as a set-up man?

Would Saito sign as a Gagne's set-up man?

Could Proctor be our set-up man?

2007-12-04 13:30:09
19.   bhsportsguy
14 If Delmon Young can be dealt, why not Kemp? Just asking?
2007-12-04 13:31:12
20.   trainwreck
I understand having paranoia about the football program, but I do not accept hysteria and questioning when it comes to Ben Howland and the basketball program. Especially, when Greg and Tracy answer a ton of questions on that board to begin with.
2007-12-04 13:31:34
21.   Jon Weisman
14 - Welcome, new commenter P4D?
2007-12-04 13:32:02
22.   underdog
I think we should play the Telephone Game with hot stove rumors. See what we can change a rumor to by the end of the game. It's fun for the whole family!
2007-12-04 13:32:13
23.   Jon Weisman
18 - Evan Grant's fans will have seen him write today about Gagne looking at a Texas return.
2007-12-04 13:32:47
24.   FirstMohican
I'd definitely like to get Bedard, and I don't see why the O's wouldn't want 2 or 3 prospects and 1 major leaguer instead of 2 MLers. They're not really in "win now" mode.

How do people think he compares to Haren?

Bedard was hurt last year, but what about 05 when he only started 24 games?

2007-12-04 13:33:25
25.   ucladodger

Because Delmon Young sucked last year. He's basically the same age as Kemp, but posted a .288/.316/.408 line, which is hideous for a corner outfielder. Devil Rays also upgraded big time at shortstop, which they needed to do in a huge way.

2007-12-04 13:34:05
26.   Disabled List
16 Not exactly. It's similar to the nervous anticpation that occurs when something good might be happening (Dodgers have the bases loaded/Dodgers might be about to trade Juan Pierre), or when something bad is about to happen (Giants have the bases loaded/Ned has a deal in place with Aaron Rowand).

The rumors are just the prelude to the event.

2007-12-04 13:34:33
27.   blue22
19 - And Erik Bedard is a lot better than Garza.

I think Bedard would be phenomenal in the NL. He could have the season that Jake Peavy just had for the Padres last year. I think I'm prepared to give up Kemp and Broxton for 2 years of that. And with Andruw Jones quickly running out of options, he could be brought with a pretty comfortable contract to replace Kemp in the OF. I'm actually most worried about what Ned would do to replace Broxton in the pen.

2007-12-04 13:34:55
28.   Pedro4DeShields
Yep, just registered, but have been enjoying the site for a good year. Certainly the most intelligent Dodger site I've come across.
2007-12-04 13:35:03
29.   jystakes
14 I think the idea is that as highly valued a young budding power CF is, so is a young dominant power/control left handed pitcher. Both are rare. The latter may be more rare (raw?).
2007-12-04 13:36:43
30.   trainwreck
Just wondering why you prefer two years of one really good player for many years of two potentially really good players?
2007-12-04 13:37:05
31.   ToyCannon
Not to hideous for a 21 year old outfielder who played in 162 major league games, when most guys are trying to hit AA pitching.
Age is somehow always lost in these translations.
2007-12-04 13:37:11
32.   D4P
I'm actually most worried about what Ned would do to replace Broxton in the pen

Easy: just go to 2007 player pitching stats and sort by the "SV" column, descending.

Joe Borowski, anyone?

2007-12-04 13:38:59
33.   JRSarno
Irresponsibility in sports correspondence is one thing. But this is the Winter Meetings, so rumors are abundant. This is the off season, where nothing is happening other than pontification. Who cares if people go hog wild over the alternative possibilities?
2007-12-04 13:39:45
34.   trainwreck
Steve Phillips just said the Blue Jays are talking to Giants about Rios for Lincecum or Cain.

Ned needs to get in on this.

2007-12-04 13:39:52
35.   oklahomadodger
27 You really think Bedard projects as a Cy Young candidate for the next two years? For that matter, Kemp could put up Manny type numbers for more than two years, which would you rather have?
2007-12-04 13:41:36
36.   blue22
30 - I value proven, Cy Young-caliber starting pitching over hitting. I'm also just skeptical enough on Kemp's abilities that I'm not calling him an untouchable. Broxton as a reliever seems replaceable enough to me.
2007-12-04 13:42:15
37.   dzzrtRatt
I really like Bedard, and my first reaction to the rumored trade was, the price seemed fair. It is fair; nonetheless I have more faith that we will be able to fill the Bedard slot from within than we will be able to fill the Kemp slot from within or outside.

However, if we could get Bedard for what is being asked; and get Cabrera for LaRoche/Kershaw/McDonald; and sign Jones; and figure that by May Torre has made Pierre a part-time player and is fielding an outfield of Ethier/Jones/Young. We'd have let go of four top prospects + Broxton, but gotten back three under-30 stars.


...will score a lot of runs

Schmidt? Elbert? scary


...not as good as last season, but Meloan could surprise.

It's not irrational. It's definitely a lot of sausage-making though. The lamentations would last til Opening Day.

2007-12-04 13:42:47
38.   trainwreck
But hitting is our problem.
2007-12-04 13:43:22
39.   regfairfield
14 Because Eric Bedard is one of the elite pitchers in baseball. I personally think the Dodgers are misidentifying a need with this, but it's not like we're getting Mark Hendrickson here.
2007-12-04 13:43:54
40.   D Money
"i hate the hot stove as much as i hate me" -- Anonymous

Uh... I'm a bit hating myself and the hot stove today.

2007-12-04 13:46:02
41.   Jon Weisman
33 - Again, I've never said people need to have radio silence on the rumors.

But if you think that overall "irresponsibility in sports correspondence" is not related to the standard being set at this time of year, I think you're mistaken.

2007-12-04 13:50:12
42.   blue22
35 - I like Kemp a lot, but I don't think Manny is a very good comp for him. Kemp just doesn't have the eye that Manny has. Kemp got pretty lucky last year to have a .342 average, and I just worry what happens when his grounders start finding fielders.

And, yeah, we're not talking about getting Baez here. If Bedard can pitch the way he did last year for the next 2 years, he's very much in the Cy Young conversation.

2007-12-04 13:50:20
43.   CajunDodger
I like having too much of a good thing (pitching) and think we could buy Kemp's production this year with Jones, but I wonder what else they want besides Brox. Hu or Abreu is probably in there somewhere.

In the long run, unless we can sign Bedard long term, this trade would seem to be a slight loss for the Dodgers.

2007-12-04 13:51:37
44.   ToyCannon
He was an elite pitcher in 2007 and the 2nd half of 2006 because of huge jumps in his K/Rate and better command. Do you think he can maintain the jumps in K/Rate and command going forward?
2007-12-04 13:51:42
45.   Benaiah
38 - I don't think we have one problem. We need more starting pitching for sure, but we also haven't had any real power hitting for a couple of years. I think the hitting next year will be better just by letting Loney and Laroche play. Pitching should be better too, but it would take a quantum leap forward with Bedard.
2007-12-04 13:54:55
46.   ToyCannon
Andre Dawson is good comp of what Kemp can become on the plus side. Ellis Valentin is good comp on what can happen on the downside.
Manny is a terrible comp, he had plate discipline the 1st day he played in the major leagues at the same age.
2007-12-04 13:55:38
47.   regfairfield
44 Yeah, it seems like that's something that's sustainable, though he is peaking a bit late for my taste. He's got at least three or four very good years left in him I'd say.

45 I still don't get where the "we need more starting pitching" sentiment comes from. We had the fourth best staff in the NL last year (behind two teams who played in much more pitcher freindly parks), and now our reserves include McDonald, Elbert and Kershaw instead of Stulton and Wells. Our pitching is fine.

2007-12-04 13:56:49
48.   GobiasIndustries
Kemp got pretty lucky last year to have a .342 average

Lucky? How is hitting the ball for average lucky? Isn't the definition of how well you actually hit the ball and not make an out, your batting average?
Please explain what you mean by lucky.

2007-12-04 13:57:01
49.   Ken Noe
So a "source" says a deal is "close" and two hours later Bedard may be going to the Jays? Either Ned backed off or Bedard's agent is trying to see what he can get out of Toronto. Personally, I'd move Broxton for a starter of that quality, but I don't see Kemp going.
2007-12-04 13:57:33
50.   regfairfield
48 Whether or not a ball in play finds a fielder has a good bit of luck to it. There's no skill in hitting a ball just out of a fielders reach.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-12-04 13:58:45
51.   paranoidandroid
46 Andre Dawson is a good comparison. I think Kemp is more athletic (agile) with more speed and potential to steal.

The durability of Kemp is an issue to be concerned about. He is bit reckless at times it seems. That could put him on the shelf often.

Imagine what Eric Davis could have done had he controlled some of his attempts to be on the highlight reels?

2007-12-04 13:59:18
52.   paranoidandroid
46 And Kemp hasn't shown us a Dawson-like arm yet.
2007-12-04 13:59:19
53.   Benaiah
47 - The back end of our rotation was horrible last year, two league average inning eaters might have been enough to get us into the playoffs last year. The cumulative ERA was good because the front 3 are very good, but it isn't like anyone is thinking: "Bedard? Oh no, whose spot is he going to take?".
2007-12-04 13:59:38
54.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 47

Is it possible to have too much starting pitching? Especially with injuries always being a possibility? Kershaw's still very young, Elbert's coming off injury, and McDonald is still question mark.

I know the offense needs work, but if we swing a deal for Jones, dump Pierre, and play LaRoche, I think the offense could make up for Kemp's absence.


2007-12-04 14:00:30
55.   blue22
48 - He had a .411 batting average on balls in play, far and away the highest on the team (Loney was next at .350). His LD% was pretty average at 17.5%.

Not saying he's a bad hitter, but I don't seem him as a solid .320-type hitter which he'll need to be to keep that OBP afloat.

2007-12-04 14:01:37
56.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 49

There you go again--using evidence! Bah! I want to speculate some more. :)


2007-12-04 14:02:38
57.   uclasway
"All the armchair GMs who post here honestly believe that they could do a better job than Ned Colletti":

A year ago, uncertain whether the kids were ready, Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti spent $125 million signing free agents Jason Schmidt, Randy Wolf, Juan Pierre, Luis Gonzalez, Nomar Garciaparra and Mike Lieberthal.

I'm not saying 100% of the armchair GM's on here are better than Colletti, but 75%, 80%?

All I know is that if I own a team, I'm not going to hire a guy from a rival team, who hadn't been successful in their deals (see Liriano, Nathan, and Bonser for Pierzynski) over Kim Ng, Logan White, or young talented baseball operations people (Antonetti, Byrnes, Forst, etc.), but now I'm being an armchair owner too, what do I know?

2007-12-04 14:02:38
58.   jystakes
49 Personally, I'd move Broxton for a starter of that quality, but I don't see Kemp going.

What does this mean? How do you get a starter of Bedard's quality for just Broxton? You gotta give up something good to get something good. This comes down to each person's personal choice of which side they fall on in the whole "bird in hand or two in bush" question.

2007-12-04 14:03:10
59.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
While we focus on Kemp, I think Jackson may be onto something with regards to Broxton--Ned may value the "proven closer" bit more than a lot of us, which is why he may be most leery of giving up the bullpen insurance behind Saito.


2007-12-04 14:04:06
60.   oklahomadodger
46 manny walked twice in his first 53 career ab's, so to say from day one he had great discipline might be a little bit of a stretch.

in about the same number of ab's (292 vs. 290) in the second years, manny drew 25 more walks. yes, that's a lot, but not enough to call it a terrible comparison.

2007-12-04 14:04:31
61.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 57

Errhhhh.. I do think being a GM is a lot harder than most people realize.


2007-12-04 14:05:50
62.   Ken Noe
56 It's that whole history, evidence thing again. The bane of our collective professional existence ;-)

I actually predicted last month that we'd send Kemp to Baltimore for Bedard, but I still hope it doesn't happen. The Ox plus Pierre or Young plus another prospect, fine, but Bison is going to be too good.

2007-12-04 14:06:12
63.   regfairfield
60 Manny walked 72 times in 1993 between AA and AAA.

Matt Kemp has walked about 90 times in the last three years.

2007-12-04 14:06:44
64.   CajunDodger
Though I had not considered it before, essentially replacing Kemp's offense with LaRoche's might be a way to talk yourself into a deal involving Kemp. Kemp's BABIP (55 ) will come to earth in the form of a .260-.290 avg. with little current plate discipline. I really like the idea of holding on to the guy who can walk and get on base even when he is slumping.
2007-12-04 14:06:47
65.   underdog
34 You lost me at "Steve Phillips said..."
2007-12-04 14:07:41
66.   Penarol1916
With regards to the replacement for Kemp, I think that ToyCannon's point in the last thread about the Fukudome rumors as a possible replacement intriguing.
2007-12-04 14:07:42
67.   regfairfield
54 No, but when you're making your offense abysmally bad to acquire that pitching you have a problem.

Yes, I realize we can actually go sign someone to replace Kemp.

2007-12-04 14:08:09
68.   Ken Noe
58 I simply meant of the two names mentioned. Obviously we'd have to send more than the Big Man. How about Pierre or Young and one or two real prospects? The O's need pretty much everything.
2007-12-04 14:10:09
69.   trainwreck
Fukudome, Pierre, and Ethier would be one of the weakest outfield lineups in the game.

Ethier would be the power guy.

2007-12-04 14:10:38
70.   regfairfield
66 Unless Fukudome manages to defy the trend of Japanese players losing all their power in the States, he forces us into having another 15 bomb corner outfielder for the next few years.
2007-12-04 14:10:42
71.   D4P
Why on earth were the Brewers talking to the Cardinals about Scott Rolen...?
2007-12-04 14:10:49
72.   GobiasIndustries
Gotcha. Thanks for elaborating.
2007-12-04 14:12:40
73.   trainwreck
He is as credible as the rest of these people.

Okay, that does not really prove anything, but we should screw over the Giants anyways.

2007-12-04 14:13:46
74.   Michael Green
While I incline toward the idea of keeping the kids, trying to sign a free agent or two, and otherwise standing pat ....

Best example I can remember of the kind of story Jon is criticizing is this one. Apparently, at the winter meetings around 1960, a few sportswriters were talking--if memory serves, Stan Isaacs and Larry Merchant were among them--and tried to come up with the nuttiest rumor they could to get a story. It hit them. The Giants needed a manager. Who was the least likely person they could think of managing a team?

Yogi Berra.

So, they floated it, and suddenly Yogi was being mentioned for every imaginable managerial opening. And as he went on to prove, he wasn't that bad! But so much for in-depth reporting.

2007-12-04 14:14:10
75.   regfairfield
71 I've noticed that Doug Melvin has a hard time knowing how good a player is.
2007-12-04 14:14:12
76.   D4P
Ethier would be the power guy

There's a good chance Ethier will be the OBP guy, which isn't a good thing.

2007-12-04 14:14:30
77.   uclasway
Don't get me wrong, being a MLB GM is a relentless, sleep-depriving, arduous job that not many people can actually handle

BUT!!! investing 9 million a year for 5 years on Juan Pierre whose skills (speed and ability to make contact) will nonetheless depreciate (as will his defense, terrible arm, extremely low OPS)over the course of his deal. That was a terrible deal and money that would have been better spent on a short term solution (arbitration to Kenny Lofton or 1yr CF FA) while waiting to invest 45 million this offseason, where some of the best CF's in the game had the potential to be available (at the time of the contract with Pierre, Vernon Wells, Andruw Jones after a great year, Eric Byrnes, Torii Hunter, Aaron Rowand, and Fukudome were all possibly going to be available this offseason).

See also: Signing Nomar to a 2 year deal for over 18 million was just silly

2007-12-04 14:18:18
78.   Xeifrank
Had he enough at bats to qualify, Matt Kemp would've led the major leagues in IFH% (Infield Hit Percentage) with a whopping 16.3%, nearly 3 percentage points ahead of league leader I.Suzuki. For example, the next closest full-time Dodger in that category was Rafael Furcal at 8.9%. Juan Pierre who rumor has it, is a speedy guy clocked in at 6.1%, while Pujols a guy who rumor has it, can hit the ball on the nose, clocked in at a mere 4.1%. There will definitely be some regression on the batting average from Kemp, he strikes out an awful lot and doesn't take too many base on balls. He's a very good player, but I don't think what he did last year is sustainable.

vr, Xei

2007-12-04 14:18:40
79.   Penarol1916
Nobody advocated for Fukudome, ToyCannon just mentioned that the Fukudome rumor and the Bedard rumor coming to the forefront at the same time could mean that he is the replacement. I just thought that it was an interesting observation.
2007-12-04 14:22:20
80.   Xeifrank
64. Or you could look at it as...

Kemp - (his replacement)
LaRoche - (his replacement)

vr, Xei

2007-12-04 14:22:46
81.   D4P
There will definitely be some regression on the batting average from Kemp, he strikes out an awful lot and doesn't take too many base on balls. He's a very good player, but I don't think what he did last year is sustainable

I think it's essentially a given that his BA isn't sustainable. The bigger question, then, is whether his OPS is sustainable, which is to say, whether he can increase his patience and power while his BA (inevitably?) drops.

I personally think his power is more likely to increase than his patience.

2007-12-04 14:23:29
82.   the2pin
Give Bedard an extension. Make the deal.
2007-12-04 14:27:34
83.   ToyCannon
On the other hand you would not see me complaining about a Kemp/Fukudome/Ethier lineup in the outfield.
I'd really love the chance to chant his name ala HSC.
2007-12-04 14:30:51
84.   regfairfield
83 Isn't that like five syllables too many?
2007-12-04 14:31:14
85.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
For the record, although I don't mind the rumored (and probably false) Bedard rumor, I'd much rather we try to improve by signing either of the premiere Japanese free agents, and just keep all the kids on the roster, hopefully either trading Pierre or seeing him become (hopefully) a fourth OF during the early part of the season.


2007-12-04 14:32:03
86.   Penarol1916
83. I think a lot of people would like that, although I've heard conflicting reports about his ability to play centerfield.
2007-12-04 14:34:00
87.   still bevens
84 Its perfect for a fu-ku-do-me (clap clap, clap-clap-clap) chant.
2007-12-04 14:40:34
88.   ToyCannon
Roto based scouting reports from baseball HQ Japanese baseball prospect hound.
Kosuke Fukudome (Fuku-Doh-Meh): Outfielder. Definitely the best hitter to be coming out of this upcoming year's players. Fukudome is a "Bobby Abreu type hitter" with strong defense and a strong arm, according to Baseball Guru's Jim Albright. Played in a park with ML dimensions, so some of his power may translate. Comment: Top of the list. All signs point to him playing in the ML in '08. Don't be fooled by the fact I'm not writing much about him. This is one you want.

Hiroki Kuroda: Solid SP with two good years in a row then a slight fall-off in ERA and K's in 2007. Good control and was scouted by several ML teams last year and more this year. Would make a decent #3 or #4 SP with a mid-90's fastball and several off pitches including the "shuutobooru" or "shootball", supposedly a combination of a fastball, a slider and a sinker, reminiscent of a screwball

2007-12-04 14:43:26
89.   Curtis Lowe
I would like to see Kuroda signed for the same contract we gave Furcal, which should be enough to beat the Mariners reported offer.

I would also like to see Jones/Fukudome signed and Pierre either benched or traded.

I would prefer Young over Pierre as the 4th out fielder.

Repko will sadly go the way of Cody Ross.

2007-12-04 14:49:26
90.   still bevens
86 From what I hear it seems like Fukudome is a Japanese JD Drew. With similar power dropoff/injury concerns.
2007-12-04 14:50:58
91.   Eric Enders
I agree that Kemp's BA is not completely sustainable, but it's probably more sustainable than those who take BABIP as gospel think it is. I think we're overlooking the role Kemp's speed plays in getting infield hits. His great BABIP was partly luck, but only partly. I'd expect him to continue to have a BABIP that's well above average, at least until he starts to lose his speed.
2007-12-04 14:55:22
92.   Gr-ool
91 Plus, Kemp hits his grounders so hard, that it's tougher for infielders to field them.
2007-12-04 14:55:26
93.   Jon Weisman
If LaRoche's offense replaces Kemp's offense, what will replace LaRoche's offense?
2007-12-04 14:56:21
94.   KG16
Who does Kemp compare to historically? I remember seeing a site that does those kind of comparisons, but I'm not finding it.

Oh, and who is the one sponsoring Kemp's page on baseball reference?

2007-12-04 14:56:37
95.   uclasway
More speculation:

For what it's worth, the Padres (also interested in Fukudome) "think Fukudome can play an adequate center"

Adequate is way better than Pierre, especially because he has a "strong arm" rather than one that will likely atrophe over the next 4 years

2007-12-04 14:58:41
96.   regfairfield
94 His top PECOTA comp heading into the year was Juan Encarnacion.

The Baseball-Reference comps are worthless because they don't adjust the stats at all.

2007-12-04 14:58:45
97.   KG16
And can someone remind me how BABIP works? Homeruns don't count, right? Can someone explain to me what exactly it shows as compared to the other numbers?
2007-12-04 14:59:58
98.   Xeifrank
93. is LaRoche a starter? He was only for a few games last year.
vr, Xei
2007-12-04 15:01:23
99.   Jon Weisman
98 - My point is that we need the boost of LaRoche's offense even if we still have Kemp. It's not as if that (potential) boost is a luxury for us.
2007-12-04 15:01:59
100.   Jon Weisman
Plus, trading Kemp isn't necessarily going to get Garciaparra out of the lineup.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-12-04 15:03:16
101.   Xeifrank
BABIP = (H - HR) / (AB - HR - SO)

Can be used to determine how lucky a hitter is with his batting average. There is a simple formula based on LD%, GB% and FB% that correlates very well as to what a BABIP for a particuliar hitter should be. But speed also plays a factor. vr, Xei

2007-12-04 15:03:29
102.   regfairfield
96 It should also be noted that Kemp's best comparables really aren't all that similar anyway. Only Encarnacion and Michael Coleman had a similarity index over 50.

Then again, I like the idea that he becomes Frank Robinson.

2007-12-04 15:03:33
103.   fanerman
I just saw that comments were turned off at FJM. To be expected.
2007-12-04 15:05:05
104.   uclasway
The Chicago White Sox are making a strong push to acquire Marlins third baseman Miguel Cabrera, industry sources said late this afternoon.

The hallways at the winter meetings were buzzing that the White Sox are close to making "a major announcement," and team sources confirmed it has to do with Cabrera.

It's not clear who the Marlins would get in return, but signs point to third baseman Josh Fields, who turns 25 on Dec. 14. Fields hit 23 homers and had 67 RBI while batting .244. Florida also could get pitcher Geo Gonzalez and either right-hander John Danks or Gavin Floyd.

The Detroit Tigers also are making a push for Cabrera, who initially was thought to be headed to the Angels before talks stalled last week.

2007-12-04 15:06:41
105.   Xeifrank
99. Of course. I think the original intent was to show that the loss of Kemp could be offset by the addition of LaRoche. It all depends on who Kemp's replacement is and the cost parameters.
vr, Xei
2007-12-04 15:06:42
106.   Eric Enders
96 Wow. Talk about cherry-picking.

Kemp's complete list of PECOTA comps...
(And remember, this is through 2006, when he batted .250. It hasn't been updated to take 2007 into consideration yet.)

4 Sammy Sosa
7 Orlando Cepeda
8 Larry Hisle
13 Jack Clark
14 Ruben Sierra
16 Ellis Valentine
17 Carlos Beltran
18 Carney Lansford
19 Frank Robinson

94 That's me.

2007-12-04 15:06:48
107.   regfairfield
Is it also valid to wonder how much power Kemp really has? It seems like the idea that he has great power comes from two places:

When he hit seven jacks in his first 47 at bats.
When he slugged 27 home runs in Vero Beach, the most home run prone park in all of baseball.

Other than that, Kemp's home run power really hasn't been all that impressive.

2007-12-04 15:07:28
108.   Eric Enders
I would expect Kemp's updated PECOTA list will consist of about 50% Hall of Famers.
2007-12-04 15:07:42
109.   regfairfield
106 It's not cherry picking, it's what I remembered off the top of my head.
2007-12-04 15:09:21
110.   Xeifrank
109, yeah, how can it be cherry-picking when you named the #1 and stated that in your post?? :)
vr, Xei
2007-12-04 15:09:54
111.   Uncle Miltie
Wow, the Detroit Tigers are about to acquire Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis for Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, and 4 prospects. Talk about going for it all.
2007-12-04 15:10:01
112.   the2pin
Does anyone else think it's bad that the talent-rich teams keep getting richer?

The Red Sox are already far, far, far better than any NL team, and they are close to adding Johan Santana - unquestionably the most dominant pitcher in baseball - without touching anyone from their World Series team.

2007-12-04 15:10:49
113.   Eric Enders
107 "It seems like the idea that he has great power comes from two places"

Well, those are the two statistical places the idea comes from. It also comes from the fact that anyone with eyes can see that he hits the ball really, really far. I mean, have you ever seen him take BP? It's a thing of beauty.

Next you're going to say, well, they said the same thing about Billy Ashley, and I'm going to say, can we please stop comparing every Dodger prospect to Billy Ashley already?

2007-12-04 15:12:41
114.   D4P
Other than that, Kemp's home run power really hasn't been all that impressive

To me, the most impressive aspect of Kemp's power (such as it is) is his ability to shank ugly looking flyballs over the fence in right-center. In general, that would seem to suggest strength.

But I agree that his strength hasn't translated in homeruns at an impressive rate. For one thing, he hits too many groundballs, which (granted) turn into singles at a high rate.

2007-12-04 15:13:26
115.   Eric Enders
111 Is that a joke, or are you serious?

That would be the blockbuster trade of a generation.

2007-12-04 15:13:27
116.   Xeifrank
James Loney and Russell Martin had a slightly higher HR/FB ratio than Matt Kemp had last year. The more I look at it, the nicer Loney's numbers look from last year. Kemp's numbers begin to really shine if you make him your CFer as opposed to a corner outfielder. Would be nice to see if he could atleast handle the CF job, but I guess that boat has sailed. vr, Xei
2007-12-04 15:13:28
117.   Eric L
When I was on the way home last night, I heard Matt Stevens on the Joe McDonnell show go on for a couple of minutes about how irresponsible "the internet guys" were in dealing with the Karl Dorrell situation. I'm sure there was terrible stuff written about Dorrell towards the end on various Bruin hangouts and if it was personal, I don't agree with it.

Stephens almost insinuated that the "internet guys" were responsible for Dorrell losing his job. There were a lot of factors in Dorrell's firing. Bloggers and message board commenters probably didn't make a difference.

When a paid journalist runs a guy(s) out of town, no one pays any attention.

2007-12-04 15:13:30
118.   regfairfield
113 I would never ever say such a horrible thing. Kemp has shown the ability to not strike out every other at bat.
2007-12-04 15:14:32
119.   KG16
ESPN is reporting M Caberra and Dontrelle Willis to Detroit for prospects.
2007-12-04 15:14:37
120.   blue22
115 is reporting that the Tigers are set to acquire Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis from the Marlins for Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller and four more prospects.

2007-12-04 15:15:11
121.   trainwreck
Now ESPN is reporting the Detroit/Florida deal.

I like the deal for Florida.

2007-12-04 15:15:36
122.   regfairfield
Hey you know who out hit Kemp at age 21, Karim Garcia :).
2007-12-04 15:16:17
123.   trainwreck
Lucky Tiger fans get to see more of Marcus Thames.
2007-12-04 15:16:18
124.   Eric Enders
"Would be nice to see if he could atleast handle the CF job, but I guess that boat has sailed."

I would put that a bit differently. More like the boat was burned down in port by vandals before its maiden voyage.

2007-12-04 15:16:40
125.   D4P
Rotoworld speculates that, if Detroit acquires Cabrera, they'd look to get rid of Inge.

That makes me cringe.

2007-12-04 15:18:17
126.   regfairfield
Wow. The Tigers are, really, really good now.

Granderson CF
Renteria SS
Miguel 3B
Magglio RF
Sheffield DH
Guillen 1B
Polanco 2B
Thames/Jones LF
Pudge C

That'll score some runs.

2007-12-04 15:18:22
127.   still bevens
Brandon (cr)Inge
2007-12-04 15:18:59
128.   Eric Enders
I think we need to see who the four other prospects are before we can say who won the trade.

Still, sheesh. Detroit just made themselves the frontrunner for the next several world championships.

2007-12-04 15:19:32
129.   JoeyP
Tigers just keep on making good deals.

Bedard for Kemp/Broxton wouldnt be a bad deal. Bedard is a K machine in his prime.

2007-12-04 15:20:07
130.   Eric Enders
130 So is Broxton.
2007-12-04 15:20:08
131.   ToyCannon
Batting practice power does not translate to in game home run power. Not that I don't think Matt Kemp is not going to have a lot of home run power I just don't see how the two correlate. Squaring up a meatball batting practice pitch and squaring up a moving major league pitch are not the same. At least it doesn't seem to correlate with all the batting practice I've seen, but it is a subjective view.
Milton Bradley hit his home runs far, he just doesn't hit very many. Hopefully Kemp hits them far and hits plenty of them.
2007-12-04 15:20:35
132.   Eric Enders
Ah, the old self-referential post.

Pretend that said 129 .

2007-12-04 15:20:54
133.   paranoidandroid
Kemp is a five tool player.

I think he will hit 30 plus homeruns in a full season. He has the potential to hit a lot more. He can also hit for average. He showed more patience and better handling of the breaking stuff in the second half last year. He'll strike out a lot, but many power hitters do.

He is unproven over the long haul. His potential is what makes him sought after. He reminds me of all the fantasies I've had about beautiful women. Perhaps they are like my dreams let them be, they might not be anything special. Letting him go to another team takes my dreams away.

Not a great analogy, but you get the point. We have a great bunch of youngsters. Martin is one of our guys now. Kemp has the ability to be the greatest of them all. Can he put it all together? Can he be a leader? Can he take the pressure? Nobody will know for a few years. But he is a special talent. Guys like him don't come around too often.

2007-12-04 15:21:12
134.   the2pin
122 People want to see "the kids" make it, and I do too, but when your best proven hitter is an ancient Jeff Kent, you aren't going to compete without a ton of luck.

Los Angeles ranks second in metropolitan area, but last in organizational cunning and balls.

2007-12-04 15:21:30
135.   Jon Weisman
I think that Kemp already has a good slugging percentage without hitting a ton of homers (batting average being only partly responsible for that) bodes well for him. No reason for the power not to improve over time.
2007-12-04 15:21:32
136.   ToyCannon
Did the RedSox and Yankee's leave the AL?
2007-12-04 15:22:55
137.   paranoidandroid
Dontrelle Willis is overrated. He is a good guy, I would take a flyer on him for the right price, but he isn't a staff ace I don't think.

Andrew Miller is a stud. Don't be too sure that Detroit picked their pockets just yet.

2007-12-04 15:23:04
138.   KG16
just having some fun with Kemp's career BABIP...

Kemp: .393
Ted Williams: .329
Joe DIMaggio: .304

Williams as a rookie (565 AB): .327
DiMaggio as a rookie (637 AB): .311

Kemp as has 446 ABs.

For what it's worth.

2007-12-04 15:24:28
139.   JoeyP
126--Tigers are basically the Yankees, but on a much lower payroll.

Terrific GM'ing and allocation of resources. They've signed the stars, kept most of their young pitching-players, and have stayed away from the crappy PVL (Sean Casey/Neifi aside).

They've disregarded "character"--see Sheffield and Kenny Rogers---and just brought talent that is priced about right.

I wouldnt mind the Dodgers ran more like the Tigers, if they arent going to be saber oriented. Tigers might be one 'old school' team that at least understands how runs are produced.

2007-12-04 15:24:50
140.   regfairfield
135 I don't think a .200 isolated power in Vegas and a .180 in the bigs is all that impressive for a corner outfielder. It should definately improve, but statements like he'll hit 30 home runs next year seem a bit optimistic.
2007-12-04 15:24:55
141.   D4P
(Kemp) showed more patience and better handling of the breaking stuff in the second half last year

I don't know whether that's true or not, but I do know this:

2007 IsoD:

Pre All Star: .45
Post All Star: .24

2007-12-04 15:24:57
142.   underdog
Memo to self: Introduce 104 to the miracle that is TinyURL. (
2007-12-04 15:25:38
143.   JoeyP
130--Unless Broxton is moved back to starter, he doesnt really compare to Bedard.
2007-12-04 15:25:45
144.   Daniel Zappala
If this report is true, then all along the Angels could have offered Hank Conger, Nick Adenhart, and four other prospects? Seems like the Angels' success in the minor leagues affects their ability to trade, the same as the Dodgers.
2007-12-04 15:26:05
145.   Jon Weisman
140 - I won't argue that.
2007-12-04 15:26:41
146.   Eric Enders
138 Where can I find those BABIP numbers for historical players? Neither Prospectus nor BB-Ref have them, as far as I can tell.
2007-12-04 15:26:59
147.   uclasway
The Marlins get six players -- Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, catcher Mike Rabelo and three minor league prospects -- for the slugging third baseman.
2007-12-04 15:28:49
148.   regfairfield
146 I think you have to do the math.
2007-12-04 15:28:58
149.   Xeifrank
So did the Tigers agree to a long-term extension with MCAB? For their sake, I hope so. Especially with the package of prospects they gave up. vr, Xei
2007-12-04 15:30:01
150.   Xeifrank
146. Fangraphs. Use the player seach option then click on season stats. vr, Xei
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-12-04 15:30:22
151.   KG16
146 - yeah, I did the math, if my calculations are correct...
2007-12-04 15:32:04
152.   D Money
i am annoyed by the "Kent was our best hitter last year" that i keep seeing everywhere.

Only for the fact that he had the AB's...martin out hit him, just didnt have the homers, and Loney, Kemp, and LaRoche would have given a full season of AB's.

i said the same thing when i read that...especially if either one of them add santana

2007-12-04 15:32:15
153.   ToyCannon
You didn't just compare Maybin to Conger did you?
Or Andrew Miller to Adenhart did you?

Funny because Kershaw would have been a Tiger if not for Hochevar dissing us in 2005 and not trading Kershaw might have been the deal breaker for Miggy for us.

2007-12-04 15:35:18
154.   ToyCannon
The AL is getting scarier and scarier. I'm with Joey, I love how the Tigers run their franchise.
2007-12-04 15:36:06
155.   regfairfield
152 Martin didn't out hit Kent unless you adjust for position.
2007-12-04 15:36:33
156.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
From Jackson's blog (perhaps the most reliable of our sources):

Dodgers, Mariners at top of Kuroda's list

The reported four-year, $44 million offer by the Mariners apparently didn't happen, or at least it hadn't happened as of this morning. All indications are Seattle's three-year offer between $30 million and $33 million is the top offer so far, with the Dodgers having possibly matched it or possibly exceeded it slightly. But while the D-backs, Cubs, Mets and Royals are believed to have interest, a source said this morning that the Mariners and Dodgers are at the head of the class. This looks like a two-horse race, but it also is a race that is likely to last a while, with Kuroda letting his price go as high as it possibly can before he settles on one team or the other.

2007-12-04 15:37:26
157.   still bevens
Another thing the Tigers have going for them is that they totally disregard the League when it comes to the draft so it should be easier for them to restock their system. Slowly, but surely.
2007-12-04 15:39:18
158.   Paul B
Didn't see anyone mention this. Will Carroll reports that "Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now."

If true, wow.

2007-12-04 15:39:21
159.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Isn't it extremely premature to make assessments of the Detroit trade, seeing as how we don't know what minor leaguers are involved?

All that being said, I wonder if the Angels felt like they were cheated; Cabrera was a great fit for them, and I think them walking away from the table may have been really a negotiating ploy. Which may have backfired badly.


2007-12-04 15:39:37
160.   jystakes
Yeah, why is it assumed the Tigers made such a great deal? We could have gotten MCAB and Willis for Kemp, Loney and "4 prospects" and everyone here would have cried.

I wonder if the Angels really REALLY go after Johan now, or Bedard.

This just proves Jon's point. WEEKS of speculation and rumors surrounding the dodgers and angels getting MCAB, with no mention of Detroit. And out of nowhere, Detroit takes it down.

2007-12-04 15:39:51
161.   Xeifrank
Meanwhile is a cave somewhere, Bob is working on a picture puzzle of the MCAB to Detroit trade. vr, Xei
2007-12-04 15:40:07
162.   Jon Weisman

2007-12-04 15:41:38
163.   fanerman
157 What is "the league"?
2007-12-04 15:41:41
164.   Xeifrank
So where do the Angels get their "big bat" now that AROD and MCAB are off the table?
vr, Xei
2007-12-04 15:41:52
165.   still bevens
159 Bill Plaschke is no doubt at this time composing a poorly worded series of one sentence paragraphs excoriating them for their lack of deal making moxy Im sure.
2007-12-04 15:42:22
166.   Xeifrank
163 Commish office prolly.
vr, Xei
2007-12-04 15:43:39
167.   Eric Enders
So I went over to Fangraphs and checked a few players similar to Kemp -- that is, guys who both (a) had tremendous speed early in their careers and (b) were known for hitting the ball really hard. I checked guys like Bo Jackson, Barry and Bobby Bonds, Strawberry, Eric Davis, Jackie Robinson, Kirk Gibson, Willie Mays, Fred Lynn, Andre Dawson.

As young players, pretty much all of them had BABIP's significantly higher than the league average. Some of them (Strawberry, Gibson) lost that in the second half of their careers when their speed diminished, while others (Jackson, Mays, Robinson) maintained a higher-than-league BABIP throughout their entire careers.

2007-12-04 15:44:13
168.   underdog
163 The League of ...Ordinary Gentlemen, with Bud Selig in the Sean Connery role?
2007-12-04 15:44:37
169.   Daniel Zappala
153 I meant to say Wood, Adenhart, and Conger. The deal was #1 and #3 Tiger prospects, plus a catcher, plus others. I know equating #1s and #3s isn't the best way to compare.
2007-12-04 15:45:11
170.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 158

Lester's high-end talent, and Crisp's a useful piece, but Kevin Goldstein's wrap up of BoSox prospects a while back indicates Masterson's a notch below the elite level of sinkerballers (Lowe, Carmona, Wang). He describes Kalish's ceiling as: "A dynamic outfielder capable of 20 home run/40 stolen base campaigns." All these guys have value, but, really, we're talking Johan Santana here--I really think Boston got the best of this trade.

2007-12-04 15:45:24
171.   ToyCannon
In the end if the Sox end up with Santana and the Tigers with Miggy, it should signal to the owners of the Yankee's and Angels to shut up during negotiations. This isn't business, this is baseball and teams have plenty of options.
2007-12-04 15:46:23
172.   regfairfield
160 Since the four prospects probably aren't any good unless they throw Porcello in there, and if they had, it probably would have been reported.

Maybin and Porcello are the only elite prospects the Tigers have. After that, they have no very good prospects, and they're 3-5 are all 18. I can't see anything that exciting added to the trade.

2007-12-04 15:46:23
173.   D4P
You get to post that but I can't say "(Blank) the heck?"...?


2007-12-04 15:46:38
174.   Eric Enders
For the Dodger system, the equivalent would have been Kemp, Elbert (Miller's nowhere near as good as Kershaw), and "4 minor leaguers."

I'd give up Kemp and Elbert for Cabrera and Willis. So I guess it depends on who the "four minor leaguers" are.

2007-12-04 15:47:00
175.   blue22
172 - Porcello isn't trade eligible yet, is he?
2007-12-04 15:48:08
176.   Jon Weisman
173 - No rule against pointing to other sites with profanity.
2007-12-04 15:48:25
177.   Jon Weisman
176 - Like FJM, for example.
2007-12-04 15:48:38
178.   regfairfield
175 There we go. It was Maybin, Miller and a whole bunch of nothing then.
2007-12-04 15:50:22
180.   ToyCannon
That is hopefull. I cross my fingers that if we end up passing on some of these already excellent players that Kemp's future performance makes it a good decision.

I actually don't see how we can trade Kemp's bat for pitching, even elite pitching. The Free Agent class is not strong enough to make up the difference. I thought we'd be able to get Bedard without giving up Kemp or Kershaw.

2007-12-04 15:50:47
181.   Jon Weisman
179 - Sheesh, now, if I don't delete that, D4P will reallty have a gripe.
2007-12-04 15:51:06
182.   bhsportsguy
174 Here's one of the 4 per

Jeff Mathis would have been a better player.

2007-12-04 15:51:32
183.   regfairfield
175 What are the rules on trade eligibility?
2007-12-04 15:52:43
184.   D4P
Sheesh, now, if I don't delete that, D4P will reallty have a gripe

Truty I will.

2007-12-04 15:53:12
185.   ToyCannon
Eric since your the historian, is it safe to say that no player of Miggy's caliber at his age has ever been traded since integration?
2007-12-04 15:54:21
186.   bhsportsguy
174 From a PR move, Florida couldn't have gone with Elbert since he was hurt all last year. Miller has the college resume and he pitched in the majors already.

I think from the top two players in the deal, if the Angels dealt Kendrick and Weaver (though I think Miller being a little younger and lefthanded gives him the edge) with Mathis and some other guys could have made that deal, the Dodgers would have had to deal both Kemp and Kershaw and that was probably a dealbreaker.

2007-12-04 15:55:05
187.   Eric Enders
183 One calendar year. I think it's one year after being drafted, but possibly it's one year from actually signing a contract.
2007-12-04 15:55:15
188.   bigcpa
Given the Angels 4-player offer, seems like Florida should have been able to get Maybin & Miller for Cabrera and hold back Willis for another deal.
2007-12-04 15:55:17
189.   bhsportsguy
183 I believe a player cannot be dealt for one year after his initial signing with an organization.
2007-12-04 15:58:23
190.   ToyCannon
I don't see how Kemp with his major league success equates to a guy who has not played above Class A other then to sit on the major league bench. Miller is surely an upgrade over Elbert only because he has pitched in the majors but you would think the backfill of prospects we could have poured at the Marlins would offset that. I'm unimpressed with the Marlin haul. At least we will have something to talk about tonight.
2007-12-04 15:58:47
191.   bhsportsguy
I think this deal also shows that Brandon Wood's stock has dropped, a year ago, a deal with Wood and Adenhart would have been enough.
2007-12-04 15:59:44
192.   regfairfield
189 If that's true, here's the best case scenario for the next three players according to Kevin Goldstein.

Cale Iorg: 22 year old shortstop who took two years off.

Jeff Larish: 25 year old first baseman who hit .267/.390/.515 in AA last year.

Eulgio De La Cruz: 24 year old pitcher who strikes out around eight per nine with a little better than 2/1 K/BB in AA and AAA.

That's the best package of prospects the Tigers have.

2007-12-04 15:59:56
193.   bhsportsguy
190 I agree with the Kemp part, it was more the pitching part, if only Elbert was healthy or if McDonald had been a big prospect a year ago.
2007-12-04 16:00:50
194.   Eric Enders
185 Well, no, not that I recall. But I could be forgetting somebody.

After the 1907 season the Tigers tried to trade the defending AL batting champion, 20-year-old Ty Cobb, to Cleveland for Elmer Flick. However, Cleveland backed out of the deal.

There were also pretty constant rumors surrounding Ted Williams when he was in his early twenties with the Red Sox, but they never pulled the trigger.

2007-12-04 16:01:03
195.   still bevens
190 Maybe they were more interested in dumping all that money owed than what they actually got back?
2007-12-04 16:03:20
196.   Xeifrank
I see the Yankees are now leaving it up to the Dodgers and Angels to drive up the price for Santana. Given that Santana would go to a west coast team. Why wouldn't the Twins just hold on to Santana and make a run at 2008 if they can't get Ellsbury or Buccholz?
Make a run with Santana and get a draft pick for him.
vr, Xei
2007-12-04 16:03:22
197.   Eric Enders
192 Heck, we could have traded them Jeff Larish if we'd bothered to sign him when we drafted him.

He's another in the Blair-Price-Savery-White-Utley cabinet of horrors.

2007-12-04 16:08:20
198.   uclasway
The package of prospects includes catcher Mike Rabelo, RHP Burke Badenhop, RHP Eulogio de la Cruz and RHP Dallas Trahern from the organization.
2007-12-04 16:10:56
199.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 196

Also, it's not implausible to think that Santana will reconsider on waiving the no-trade clause during the season, if he knows he has an extension waiting in the wings.


2007-12-04 16:11:10
200.   regfairfield
Wow, that's absolutely terrible. De La Cruz might be a decent reliever, and that's about it. Rabelo is a backup catcher, Trahern's perfect case is a back of the rotation guy, and Badenhop couldn't even live up to that.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-12-04 16:13:44
201.   natepurcell
Tigers got a good deal.
2007-12-04 16:13:56
202.   trainwreck
I am probably undervaluing Willis, but I expect all his stats to get worse in the AL, so I see the deal as Cabrera for all those guys.

Yeah, they probably could have traded Willis in another deal, but I am guessing they wanted Andrew Miller badly and had to give up Willis to get him.

2007-12-04 16:14:06
203.   Eric Enders
BP ratings from November:

RHP Eulogio de la Cruz (#7 in system; "2-star prospect")
RHP Dallas Trahern (#11, "2-star prospect"
catcher Mike Rabelo (not in top 11 prospects)
RHP Burke Badenhop (not in top 11 prospects)

So basically, it was Miller, Maybin, and a bunch of filler. Really lousy trade for Florida, IMO.

2007-12-04 16:15:23
204.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Angels must be so furious right now.


2007-12-04 16:15:41
205.   bhsportsguy
203 Rabelo is a 27 (28 in January 2008) backup catcher so he would not show up in their ratings.

Not saying he is any good but just to clarify.

2007-12-04 16:16:41
206.   regfairfield
202 I hate Willis, but just Miguel alone for that package is a terrible trade.
2007-12-04 16:16:48
207.   bhsportsguy
204 Maybe the Marlins wanted to add Willis to the deal and the Angels balked because of the amount of money they would have to shell out for both he and Cabrera?
2007-12-04 16:17:40
208.   Daniel Zappala
201 I stand by my contention that teams ask more from the Angels and Dodgers than anyone else.
2007-12-04 16:18:15
209.   trainwreck
They definitely do.
2007-12-04 16:18:38
210.   Jon Weisman
Can someone explain Florida's thinking? Can we conclude that somehow, the Angels' offer (or Dodgers' offer, for that matter) wasn't what it was said to be?
2007-12-04 16:18:44
211.   regfairfield
If we just had a lousy backup catcher, we could have Miguel or Lastings by now.
2007-12-04 16:18:55
212.   bhsportsguy
206 What would have been a fair deal for the Dodgers assuming that it would have play out for the mass media not just folks here on DT?
2007-12-04 16:19:37
213.   Jon Weisman
Nate Silver's take.

2007-12-04 16:20:04
214.   Daniel Zappala
204 I'm about as mad as I've ever been about a deal. I really wasn't going to be happy with the talent the Angels would have to give up, and now it seems like the Tigers were asked for less.
2007-12-04 16:20:16
215.   bhsportsguy
208 I have been saying that since last year I believe.

Does the BYU contigent stay in Las Vegas proper for the game or do they bus in from Arizona? Halfway kidding.

2007-12-04 16:21:45
216.   trainwreck
I have no idea what Dodgers offered so I cannot talk about that. As for Angels, I am assuming they felt they needed a center fielder in Maybin more than Kendrick and they also liked Miller more than any of the starters the Angels were offering.
2007-12-04 16:21:45
217.   Eric Enders
210 I think it all comes down to wanting to get "famous" prospects in return, as opposed to good prospects. People have seen Miller and Maybin play in the majors. Ditto Kemp, Billingsley, Kendrick. Minor leaguers, even if they're better than the major leaguers involved, aren't going to make as much of an impression on the press release.
2007-12-04 16:21:52
218.   natepurcell
Florida must really, really like Cameron Maybin.
2007-12-04 16:21:57
219.   regfairfield
212 Off the top of my head, Kemp, McDonald, Orenduff, and random filler like Hull and Garrett White. That easily tops the Tigers offer.
2007-12-04 16:22:11
220.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 207 210

Considering the talent involved, I think this is a money issue--Florida was looking to shed as much salary as possible, and when Arte showed no interest in Willis, he went to Detroit. This also fits in with the recent tack the Marlins management has taken.


2007-12-04 16:24:42
221.   trainwreck
Yeah, the Florida payroll is lower than the Rays now right?
2007-12-04 16:25:26
222.   Daniel Zappala
220 You mean Reagin, not Arte.
2007-12-04 16:25:46
223.   trainwreck
I will say this about the Marlins. I thought Hanley Ramirez was going to be a bust and now he is great. So they got some decent scouts over there.
2007-12-04 16:27:06
224.   Daniel Zappala
215 BYU fans, and Mormons in general, have no problem staying in Vegas. They just don't gamble while they are there. Some people don't realize this, but there is a large number of Mormons living in Las Vegas -- there is even an LDS temple there.
2007-12-04 16:27:32
225.   bhsportsguy
219 I had the same thought, I might have dipped down to maybe Josh Wall, Steven Johnson, Kyle Orr group. Or why not Blake Dewitt since BA loves him anyway.
2007-12-04 16:27:39
226.   Gen3Blue
" they want Bedard bad" is the tip-off. It is either someone who needs a rumor "bad" or really covets Kemp! Even Colleti wouldn't fall for this.
2007-12-04 16:28:35
227.   Jon Weisman
224 - My best female friend from Stanford is Mormon, and much of her family is in Henderson, Nevada.
2007-12-04 16:29:49
228.   blue22
221 - Especially after the Rays splurged on Percival last week.
2007-12-04 16:30:00
229.   regfairfield
221 Easily. The Marlins now have three players who are arbitration eligible. Miguel Olivo, Kevin Gregg, Alfredo Amezaga, and I wouldn't be surprised if they non tendered Olivo and Amezaga now.
2007-12-04 16:30:56
230.   Eric Enders
"Even Colleti wouldn't fall for this."

You have more faith than I do, apparently.

2007-12-04 16:31:57
231.   trainwreck
I know two Mormon girls who went to UNLV and live in the Vegas area.
2007-12-04 16:32:54
232.   underdog
So now Florida can afford to build a new stadium, and find a few hundred more fans to fill their current one. Hooray for them!
2007-12-04 16:35:18
233.   fanerman
It seems like the Dodgers could have put together a better offer without giving up either Kemp or Kershaw.
2007-12-04 16:35:57
234.   bhsportsguy
I hope you all realize my BYU/Las Vegas reference was just a tangent and not to be taken seriously.
2007-12-04 16:39:05
235.   Daniel Zappala
227 A good approximation of LDS membership is proximity to a temple:

2007-12-04 16:39:25
236.   Jon Weisman
234 - I do. I was just passing along trivia.
2007-12-04 16:39:48
237.   natepurcell

We don't have a position player comparable to Maybin who's name is not Matt Kemp.

Marlins love athleticism

2007-12-04 16:39:57
238.   Daniel Zappala
234 Like all good tangents, we're more than willing to run with them. I understood it was all in good fun.
2007-12-04 16:40:16
239.   natepurcell
That Central is going to be a battle to the death between the Indians and Tigers
2007-12-04 16:42:24
240.   bhsportsguy
236 I think it might be interesting to write up something about how the Dodgers are now used when teams are discussing deals.

Just suggesting, not demanding.

2007-12-04 16:42:52
241.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 237

That's a good point--we saw that also in the Ramirez deal.


2007-12-04 16:43:20
242.   bhsportsguy
239 I like the Tigers because of their drafting philosophy.
2007-12-04 16:43:53
243.   Jon Weisman
240 - You mean for SI? That would require actual reporting, since I can't take what's been published at face value.
2007-12-04 16:45:06
244.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Any sense of what the Angels will do now? Cabrera was such a great fit for them, after all--I don't see where else they could get a legitimate, middle-of-the-order power bat to protect Vlad.


2007-12-04 16:46:18
245.   regfairfield
240 Well, it didn't seem to work out for the Marlins, whatever they were trying to do. How do you trade someone as good as Cabrera and not even get back someone how can contribute right away?
2007-12-04 16:47:18
246.   Disabled List
I simply refuse to believe that the Twins would tank the 2008 season for the Red Sox by not getting back either Ellsbury or Buchholz for Johan.

I may be in violation of Rule 8 here, but this is ridiculous.

2007-12-04 16:48:26
247.   underdog
Mark chimes in on the trade at the end of his new BA post. Does not see it as a steal for the Tigers, you might say.
2007-12-04 16:50:15
248.   bhsportsguy
243 Maybe its time (or after the winter meetings) to explore an interview with Ned, Logan, Kim Ng someone about the last year in regards of potential moves, etc.
2007-12-04 16:50:29
249.   regfairfield
247 Where is that?
2007-12-04 16:51:30
250.   blue22
249 - At Bad Altitude, not that "other" BA.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-12-04 16:51:44
251.   MC Safety
Wow, considering the haul for the Marlins, I wouldnt doubt that they were packaging Cabrera and Willis all along. Just one big salary dump just like Lowell and Beckett. Renteria and Cabrera sure makes a nice left side of the infield offensively. The rich just keep gettin richer while the poor just keep groomin the prospects.
2007-12-04 16:53:57
252.   Jon Weisman
246 - I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you, but it is getting a little ridiculous that you keep carping about it, especially when it's been responded to. Was there any new information that prompted this latest comment?
2007-12-04 16:54:17
253.   regfairfield
Ah, the always credible comparing Miguel Cabrera to Mo Vaughn.
2007-12-04 16:54:36
254.   Kingmans Performance
With Miggy now a Tiger, it seems to me Mr. Colletti would now focus on acquiring Aaron Rowand.

I don't expect Ned to come home empty handed.

2007-12-04 16:55:13
255.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
RE: 250

Cabrera will be a free agent after this season, right? So Miller, Maybin, and filler for a one year rental of an elite player--no guarantee, after all, that Cabrera stays with Detroit. That does look less one-sided in Detroit's favor.


2007-12-04 16:56:31
256.   blue22
254 - Andruw Jones is a better bet than Rowand to take less years, which is something that Ned has continually brought up recently. Plus it seems that Rowand has an extra couple of suitors in Chicago (AL) and Philly now.
2007-12-04 16:57:01
257.   blue22
255 - After '09. They get 2 years of Cabrera.
2007-12-04 16:57:11
258.   Jon Weisman

Los Angeles Angels GM Tony Reagins said Tuesday evening that the Angels were not pursuing a trade for Minnesota Twins left-hander Johan Santana and never were.

"We haven't had any discussions about adding starting pitching," Reagins told Los Angeles writers. "Rumors are out there. It's rumor. I've been watching ESPN, seeing things being reported. You wonder where it comes from."

2007-12-04 16:57:42
259.   Jon Weisman
248 - Maybe.
2007-12-04 16:58:36
260.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 257

Thanks for clarifying--just read Silver's piece also. Man, this deal looks like a straight salary dump, then.


2007-12-04 17:00:50
261.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 256

That also fits the patter of the Furcal trade, where Ned paid more for for fewer years.

If only he stuck to that philosophy last winter, instead of giving Pierre that absurd contract.


2007-12-04 17:01:52
262.   bhsportsguy
259 Not trying to add more to your plate, really.

258 But it was printed in a blog. We all know how responsible bloggers are when it comes to posting.

BTW, UCLA just offered Pete Carroll the naming rights to the b-ball arena, a house in Bel-Air and all the Stan's Donuts he can eat to coach at UCLA.

2007-12-04 17:02:17
263.   Uncle Miltie
I know two Mormon girls who went to UNLV and live in the Vegas area.
Are they still Mormon? I'm half kidding...
2007-12-04 17:06:48
264.   bhsportsguy
Not a rumor and since he went to my old high school that was named after UCLA, its interesting.

Chris Peterson is in Los Angeles but only to look at a football player at University High in West Los Angeles.

University High was formerly Warren Harding High but was renamed University High after UCLA was re-located to its current location.

2007-12-04 17:08:34
265.   Disabled List
252 Yes. That was in response to the info in 158 , which I assumed was new info. It was intended as another isolated statement of disbelief. I was not expecting or anticipating a response to it.
2007-12-04 17:10:49
266.   underdog
249 Sorry, should've clarified - yah, Bad Altitude. Feel free to give Mark some company over there.

Wow, my Tigers Fan Friend/Coworker is really gloating about this trade. That'll teach me to try to share information with him. He has the complete reverse opinion of it that Mark does. He also thinks Willis will be great in that "pitcher's park." I'm not as sure about that. But as long as Miggy doesn't eat Gary Sheffield or anything they should be happy with their end of the deal.

2007-12-04 17:11:36
267.   Jon Weisman
264 - My mom went from University High to UCLA too.
2007-12-04 17:12:36
268.   bhsportsguy
267 Did she go to Emerson too?
2007-12-04 17:17:23
269.   Jon Weisman
268 - Warner, Emerson, Uni, UCLA.
2007-12-04 17:18:25
270.   D Money
wouldnt it be great id MCab actually did eat Sheffield?

i hope they get it on video...maybe during the 7th inning stretch.

maybe they could do a promo...How Many Single A Players Can MCab Eat During The Strecth

2007-12-04 17:19:33
271.   D Money
my typing has been horrendous today....i need an editor.
2007-12-04 17:20:09
272.   Gen3Blue
Sincerely glad. If Mig is gone so is one of the places the D's could have spent the future. Santana is the only place left. (This assumes sanity in our front office and that may be too much to ask.
2007-12-04 17:20:21
273.   trainwreck
Tell you friend that he already pitched in a pitchers park and now he has to move to the AL.

Of course, you might have already told him that.

2007-12-04 17:22:49
274.   Bob Timmermann
Uni High plays for the LA City Invitational Championship in football on Friday at the Coliseum against Garfield.

The Wildcats were the #13 seed in the playoffs and knocked off the #4 Marshall Barristers (alma mater of everyone's favorite announcer, Pete Arbogast), then the #5 Franklin Panthers, and then the #16 seed Huntington Park Spartans.

2007-12-04 17:23:23
275.   trojanmansaki
"In addition to Miller and Maybin, rated the No. 3-ranked prospect by, the Marlins will receive catcher Mike Rabelo, and right-handed pitchers Burke Badenhop, Eulogio de la Cruz and Dallas Trahern."

2007-12-04 17:24:09
276.   underdog
273 I did. He's too euphoric to listen to reason.
2007-12-04 17:24:25
277.   Greg Brock
I like Eric Bedard. A lot.

I do not want to trade Kemp and Broxton for Eric Bedard.

2007-12-04 17:24:29
278.   Marty
Sounds like Mark has some Leyland issues that cloud his opinion a bit.
2007-12-04 17:25:11
279.   underdog
I'm glad Burke Badenhop never became an infielder, with that name.
2007-12-04 17:27:08
280.   ToyCannon
I played basketball at University High on the playground after work for about two years. Maybe the last time I was in great shape. Good times, I loved playing basketball but my skill level was only good enough for pickup games.
2007-12-04 17:27:37
281.   D Money
i was JUST about to say the same thing...
i would still like to get Kuroda & Jones/Rowand and ditch Pierre+$$$ or just Pierre for whatever we could get.

Although i think for some reason Ned would rather keep pierre and ship out kemp for a pitcher

2007-12-04 17:28:17
282.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
8:12 p.m., from Steve Phillips
• The Mets offered Aaron Heilman, Carlos Gomez and Philip Humber for Erik Bedard.
2007-12-04 17:28:46
283.   underdog
The latest from my Tiger-friend, on Willis: "he's exactly what we need, a young veteran starter with postseason experience"
2007-12-04 17:30:39
284.   underdog
Rather than hoist our farm system on its own petard, the Dodgers might as well acquire Jean-Luc Godard, or Picard, instead of Bedard.
2007-12-04 17:31:28
285.   D Money
Hey Jon
...just throwin out an idea for a "down-time" post...kinda like you did with positions and numbers

everyone could post their ages?

it would help me/us to get a stranglehold on some of the thought processes and stories people tell here...

for instance i read 280 and was wonderin his age/when he played... i idea

2007-12-04 17:33:00
286.   D Money
another example of what i said in 285 ...i have no idea what he is talking about except for a vague star trek reference....i think
2007-12-04 17:33:01
287.   Jacob L
274 Would it qualify as unusual for both Uni and Garfield to be good at football? Does the fact that I think of Carson and Banning being the City Section powers mean I'm in some sort of time warp?
2007-12-04 17:34:29
288.   Jacob L
I think it would be insane for the Dodgers to trade for filmmaker, even from the French new wave.
2007-12-04 17:35:25
289.   underdog
286 Sorry, I should mention I'm fighting a nasty head cold, and am slightly delirious. Maybe I should stop posting bad poetry. I need to sit by a hot stove for awhile.

But I'm 37, if you're scoring at home. SFSU class of '92.

2007-12-04 17:37:02
290.   D Money
any of you stat geniuses know how to figure out how, in an outfield of Pierre/Ethier/Kemp, Pierre's defensive value is greater in left feild. or lesser.

because the Offense would be the same no matter where they play out there.

2007-12-04 17:37:15
291.   dzzrtRatt
What will happen to Inge, the heart of this team?

Part of a comment on the Detroit Free Press' reader reactions. Reminiscent of when local sports radio jocks bemoaned DePodesta replacing Alex Cora with Jeff Kemp, "breaking up the best double-play combination in baseball."

Mostly, the fans in Detroit seem happy but nervous they've let another John Smoltz escape.

2007-12-04 17:38:42
292.   bhsportsguy
285 You'll never guess his age if you meet him. But I am guessing it was after the new gym was built but that was in the late 1970's.

The floor was never same after it warped after a rainstorm and water sat on the floor unnoticed over the weekend.

2007-12-04 17:39:28
293.   trainwreck
We could force other teams to watch Numero deux.
2007-12-04 17:39:58
294.   bhsportsguy
291 Will they trade that possibility for a title? That is the key question.
2007-12-04 17:39:59
295.   bhsportsguy
291 Will they trade that possibility for a title? That is the key question.
2007-12-04 17:41:18
296.   natepurcell
amazing. from Diamond:

Regarding last year's clubhouse troubles, Colletti said, "I know why it occurred. It's been addressed." Speaking of which, a source today recounted an incident between Jeff Kent and James Loney after a September loss last season that underscores the divide. Loney untucked his jersey after the game in the near-empty dugout, and Kent ordered him to tuck his shirt back in. Loney was in the middle of something and said alright, he'd do it. Kent shook his head and walked off in a huff and later let Loney know how unprofessional the kid was being. It was at the end of the series that Kent criticized the team's young players.

Now we have the "shirt tuck" incident with the trashcan conundrum.


2007-12-04 17:41:24
297.   Jacob L
In which case, you'd better ask it again. ;)
2007-12-04 17:42:57
298.   trainwreck
Jeff Kent is everything I hate in a person.
2007-12-04 17:43:34
299.   D4P
Jeff Kent is everything I hate in a person

And more!

2007-12-04 17:43:40
300.   godvls
269 - My dad went to Emerson, Uni, UCLA. My mom went to Emerson, Uni, USC....couldn't get in to UCLA. My dad went to Westwood Elementary, can't remember my mom's elementary school.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-12-04 17:43:52
301.   Jacob L
296 I didn't know there was un-tucking going on. What a hellion. (Risking rule 7 violation)
2007-12-04 17:45:08
302.   still bevens
296 That is the stupidest thing I have ever read.
2007-12-04 17:46:14
303.   D Money
hehe...that was clever.

id take their talent and "unprofessionalism" over Kent's old grumpiness and declining talent..even if he still is a top offensive 2 bagger.

2007-12-04 17:46:21
304.   Bluebleeder87

Bob are you talking about the same Garfield Oscar De La Hoya & Mr. Escalante attended?

2007-12-04 17:47:09
305.   still bevens
I can't see that meeting with Beane and Colletti going anywhere either. Hes going to ask for the moon for Blanton / Haren.
2007-12-04 17:48:05
306.   underdog
296 If that source is accurate (and not the same source that repeats on all the failed trade possibilities), that really is asinine, and petty - even for Kent!

Couldn't we have traded him to Florida?

2007-12-04 17:49:11
307.   underdog
Who wants to create a "Hey Kent, Tuck this!" sign for next season's DT outing?
2007-12-04 17:49:59
308.   Jon Weisman
People can offer their ages if they want, but I'm not going to solicit them.

You all might not know this, but I'm 40.

2007-12-04 17:51:07
309.   Bob Timmermann
The very same Garfield High.

Note that I am referring to the City INVITATIONAL Division. This is the LA City Section equivalent of the NIT or in the old days, the 3A division. The big boys play in the City Championship Division. That final will be Carson versus Birmingham and the Patriots should win that one easily unless Milton Knox were to get hurt early in the game.

Birmingham has blown out each of its first three playoff opponents and is hoping to get a berth in the State Championship Game next week.

2007-12-04 17:51:17
310.   bhsportsguy
304 I would presume he is talking about the same school.

296 I would guess in the myriad of things that went on last year, that wasn't the only interaction that Jeff Kent had with Loney or others. Its a workplace, people interact, they tell people what they think.

If that was the only time Kent ever told Loney something re how to act, I would be surprised but again, it depends on the person receiving the comment as much as who gives it.

2007-12-04 17:51:29
311.   trainwreck
Jon's a man!!! He's 40!!!
2007-12-04 17:52:00
312.   bhsportsguy
308 Really, you should post something about that.
2007-12-04 17:53:06
313.   D Money
<<< 23 in march
2007-12-04 17:53:31
314.   bhsportsguy
309 Carson beat Uni 81-0 in 1977 or 1978 in the City playoffs. Uni was moved out of 4A the following season.

Our QB was Damon Farmar, father of future Bruin and Laker, Jordan Farmar.

2007-12-04 17:54:09
315.   Jacob L
305 Given that we've been seemingly unwilling to part with the top tier youngsters in trade for the likes of Cabrera, Santana, etc., perhaps some GM (and why not Beane) would take a gander to some of next level of prospects. I know we've established that GMs ask more of the Dodgers than of the rest of market, but things change.
2007-12-04 17:54:53
316.   dzzrtRatt
Maybe Loney left something out of the story.

Like maybe there was a rabid wombat hanging off Loney's shirttail and Jeff Kent was afraid of it.

2007-12-04 17:55:05
317.   Marty
I'll be 52 in 32 days
2007-12-04 17:57:53
318.   dzzrtRatt
I'll be 52 in 40 days.
2007-12-04 17:58:25
319.   Bluebleeder87
Yeah, I didn't think Garfield or Franklin were Division ones...
2007-12-04 18:00:01
320.   Humma Kavula
I am 33 years old.

My daughter, who is reading this with me while tucked in my left arm, is 18 days old.

2007-12-04 18:00:54
321.   Bob Timmermann
Before the playoffs are seeded, teams ask which division they want to play in. Teams that win the weaker leagues ask to play in the "Invitational."

The City Section had 8-man football this year. I think that was the first time ever. LAUSD opened up a bunch of new schools.

There's not a lot of competitive balance in high school sports. They need a salary cap.

2007-12-04 18:01:27
322.   natepurcell
I'll be 52 in roughly 10,950 days.
2007-12-04 18:02:04
323.   Marty
317 1/14/56? Wow.
2007-12-04 18:03:23
324.   Marty
322 If you're lucky :)
2007-12-04 18:04:58
325.   Greg Brock
324 Well that was morbid.
2007-12-04 18:05:18
326.   D4P
Speaking of 52:

My weather page tells me that Durham has 52 days of water left.

2007-12-04 18:06:34
327.   Bob Timmermann
Skipping showers is very edgy.
2007-12-04 18:07:01
328.   trainwreck
RIP David "Chip" Reese
2007-12-04 18:08:37
329.   Eric Enders
It would be better if people just named the Dodger whose DOB is closest to theirs.

Mine once hit a home run off Mark Grace.

2007-12-04 18:09:30
330.   Bluebleeder87

my best friend in high school played football & basketball he said that he played against a division one team (I can't remember if he said a division one team or a really good team) & it was an EYE OPENER for him, he's a bulky 5'9 or 5'10 but he said the other guys were really really big!!

2007-12-04 18:10:30
331.   trainwreck
James Loney is closest Dodger to my DOB.
2007-12-04 18:10:44
332.   MC Safety
We gave him a free pass with my boy Milton Bradley, which hurt being from Long Beach and all, but honestly how many times can Jeff Kent butt heads with an African American over petty issues and not be called the R word. I wont use hate because my mother taught me right, but I truly despise Jeff Kent especially when it comes to his police officer like way of coming across to his teammates.
2007-12-04 18:14:05
333.   D4P
Skipping showers is very edgy

I used to take a shower in the morning and one in the evening. Now I limit myself to one per day.

You pretty much have to take two during the summer months.

2007-12-04 18:14:12
334.   Bluebleeder87
my buddy is a really good football & basketball player I can only imagine how good the other team was...
2007-12-04 18:14:35
335.   Eric Enders
I wonder if James Loney and Matt Kemp sit around watching Reno 911 and making fun of Jeff Kent.

I hope so.

2007-12-04 18:15:30
336.   D Money
once again the R word yapping whenever there is a white-black issue...why is it always the white guy who is the r word?

kent is a jerk to everyone.

get over it.

2007-12-04 18:15:32
337.   trainwreck
I stopped taking two showers in a day when I read how it makes you smell worse, because you rub all the oils off your skin.

So remember kids:
Do not shower twice in a day and go see Marvin's Room. Be a man!

2007-12-04 18:18:53
338.   Eric Enders
336 Rowr!
Little testy, are we?

Presented without further comment:
Players whom Jeff Kent has had a documented inability to get along with:
Barry Bonds
Matt Kemp
James Loney
Milton Bradley

2007-12-04 18:19:09
339.   scareduck
I'm only a few days younger than Randy Johnson.
2007-12-04 18:21:05
340.   Jason in Canada
The Dodger with the closest DOB to mine is none other than Jeff Kent.

No wonder I can't stand sloppy dressers.

2007-12-04 18:25:35
341.   D Money
its not just jeff kent, its in every altercation between a white guy and a black guy.

ever think that maybe the media just overblows those incidents?

maybe the its the "urban" attitude that black players usually exhibit (which often comes off as disrespectful, especially to "old school" players) and not their skin color?

and nobody gets along with Bonds or Bradley, so those are invalid examples.

2007-12-04 18:26:19
342.   Bob Timmermann
I've seen Oaks Christian play at Fillmore.

It was not a pretty sight.

2007-12-04 18:26:41
343.   Jon Weisman
336 - The "get over it" is the biggest problem with that comment. Both sides of the argument have points to make, but one side chose to make it nasty.
2007-12-04 18:27:18
344.   goofus
329 You mean ex-Dodger....
2007-12-04 18:27:46
345.   underdog
Of current Dodgers, Scott Proctor has the bday closest to mine - one day (and 7 years) later.
2007-12-04 18:28:00
346.   Jon Weisman
341 - That being said, you really need to watch it with your generalizations.
2007-12-04 18:29:09
347.   Bluebleeder87
Scott Proctor is the only one I come close to sharing a birthday.
2007-12-04 18:30:25
348.   D Money
Wasnt telling the commenter to get over it. was referring to people who want to make everything a race issue, instead of a two people not getting along issue. i dislike kent also and he may very well be a r word, but just because he has had issues with a few black players doesnt mean he is. he is like that with everyone. i garauntee if ethier did it he would have said the same thing and nobody would have made a deal about it
2007-12-04 18:31:05
349.   underdog
Oh and Esteban Loiaza is almost exactly my age, bday one day before mine (one year later). I guess bbleeder and I have close to the same bday?

I'm leaving the office now. Hope I don't miss - or maybe I do - any rule (3, 4 and) 5 violations...

2007-12-04 18:31:23
350.   neuroboy002
Loney: Could you do me a favor? Could you not tuck the blankets in? 'Cause I can't sleep all tucked in.

Attendant: Oh, yes, yes.

Loney: Yes, I like to just be able to take the blankets and swish them and swirl them, you know what I mean? You know, I don't like being all tucked in. I like to have a lot of room, you know I like to have my toes pointed up in the
air. Just like to scrunch up the blankets.

Attendant: Yes, yes. It's too tight to sleep.

Loney: Exactly, you know what I'm talking about, right? Jeff, you want your blankets tucked in?

Kent: Make mine a tuck

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-12-04 18:31:49
351.   D Money
i wasnt generalizing....calling kent a r word is generalizing based on 4 encounters, 2 minor, and he wasnt the only one involved. i.e. gonzo and lowe, and the other 2 were with players who are equally jerks
2007-12-04 18:32:42
352.   scareduck
329 - Bob Higgins.

2007-12-04 18:34:35
353.   Ken Noe
I'm sandwiched between Tony Abreu and Greg Miller. And I thought my aches and pains were from turning fifty.

Is it a Rule 1 violation to note that Kent must be a serious tucker?

2007-12-04 18:34:56
354.   MC Safety
336 What I am trying to say is cant Jeff Kent just not say anything? If this trash can crap and shirt nonsense is true, what is the average John Doe human being supposed to think? That he is just really anal when it comes to African Americans quirks? Im not sure if Jeff's Dad made him take out the trash so much when he was a kid he became immune to the smell and forgot trash stinks or whatever but if Matt Kemp doesnt like the smell of trash next to to his locker who is Jeff Kent to say one word? If James Loney decides to untuck his shirt after a game in the dugout there should be no conversation. Dont give me this he's passing the baton junk either because he cried and lashed out when the older guys tried to pass the baton to him.
2007-12-04 18:35:21
355.   Uncle Miltie
I would be perfectly content with Tony Abreu as the Dodgers starting 2B. Jeff Kent needs to retire. I hope he never wins a championship.
2007-12-04 18:35:27
356.   D Money
i think it would depend on how you use it lol
2007-12-04 18:39:13
357.   D Money
maybe he learned the error of his ways and realized that he benefited from their baton passing and wants to do the same....
and maybe loney was throwing a fit and did it in a disrespectful to the jersy/team way?

i remember a few years back after a tough loss, plaxico burress did a similar rip off my jersey thing and hines ward and a couple other vets tore into him and he put it back on,and commentators praised ward....hard to say based on the fact that the media likes to paint kent as a bad guy

2007-12-04 18:42:25
358.   D Money
on the 40 man roster xavier paul is closest to my age, 1 month older than me.

otherwise abreu is like 4 1/2 months older.

2007-12-04 18:45:39
359.   Daniel Zappala
Ramon Martinez probably doesn't realize that a not-so-famous CS professor shares his exact birthdate.
2007-12-04 18:45:52
360.   MC Safety
357 No , how about maybe Loney wanted to untuck his shirt after having it tucked in for three hours! Is that disrespectful to The Dodger Code? I highly doubt it, Jeff realized 2007 wasnt going to give him another shot at the playoffs so he instigated a controversy for which some believe he had ulterior motives ( Convince Coletti to trade youngsters for more PVL ). He is so transparent to me, I am sorry you dont agree. Yeah he is a good offensive 2nd baseman but Id rather watch Abreu hit 10-15 bombs and actually play defense.
2007-12-04 18:47:07
361.   D Money
if broxton is shipped, do you guys think beimel could step in his role? maybe a beimel/proctor platoon set up man?
2007-12-04 18:47:54
362.   Daniel Zappala
Are we going to start a secret-Santa deal, except for birthdays? We each get assigned a random commenter and send an anonymous gift on their birthday. Hijinks and intrigue ensue.
2007-12-04 18:49:16
363.   Bob Timmermann
Except I never know what to get anybody.
2007-12-04 18:49:36
364.   D Money
that kind of thinking isn't much different than what you are accusing Kent of.
anyways, agree to disagree.
2007-12-04 18:49:37
365.   bigcpa
Odd comments from Ken Williams:

"Andruw Jones is not on our list," said Williams, adding that he liked Jones but wanted players who can help lower the team's strikeout total, raise their on-base percentage and work deep counts.

Jones took 70 and 82 walks the last 2 seasons. Anyway I don't know who we're competing with for Jones. SF? StL if they move Edmonds?

2007-12-04 18:54:35
366.   natepurcell

Rangers, Padres maybe.

2007-12-04 18:55:50
367.   MC Safety
364 Compare the two for me please. Your " kinds of thinking" makes me laugh, any other sweeping generalizations?
2007-12-04 18:57:31
368.   NorCal-Dodger
274 Bob, was Marshall really ranked that high in the City at #4. We are talking about John Marshall High?
2007-12-04 18:59:56
369.   bigcpa
Players who struck out more than A. Jones last year:

BJ Upton
Carlos Pena
Adrian Gonzalez

Miguel Cabrera had 11 fewer K's. I don't see how you can consider Jones a drag on an offense.

2007-12-04 19:01:20
370.   D Money
you saying that his altercations with black players makes him an r word because he is white is a form a the r word.

if kent was black, or dominican or w/e else nobody would bring the r word up.

i dont see how that is a sweeping generalization.

2007-12-04 19:02:07
371.   Daniel Zappala
363 That's where the hijinks come in.
2007-12-04 19:02:16
372.   Bob Timmermann
This was the lower division of the LA City Section.

So the #1 team is really #17. So Marshall was essentially #21. The Barristers have been fairly good recently because they've been getting good players from a group home for problem kids over in Silver Lake.

2007-12-04 19:04:45
373.   Bob Timmermann
My niece is getting a kids watch and some lemon custard scented shampoo.

She needs to learn to tell time accurately so she can become as obsessive about the time as her uncle is.

2007-12-04 19:04:46
374.   Eric Enders
370 "you saying that his altercations with black players makes him an r word"

Nobody's been saying that, at least not definitively. More like wondering whether it's the case.
People have merely been noting that there is smoke. Not necessarily claiming that there is fire.

2007-12-04 19:06:47
375.   MC Safety
370 I give up. I guess I have to cope with the fact that I am white, I like Wu Tang Clan and Seinfeld, and thinking Jeff Kent is racist makes me racist.
2007-12-04 19:06:52
376.   trainwreck
According to Diamond Leung we are meeting with the A's tonight.

Everyone get your fears up.

2007-12-04 19:07:21
377.   NorCal-Dodger
373 - Thanx for the info Bob, graduated there in '83, I believe that was the last and only time Marshall won a City was 2A, can't remember if it was against Roosevelt or Garfield?
2007-12-04 19:07:42
378.   D Money

see 375

2007-12-04 19:11:36
379.   Bob Timmermann
Marshall beat Garfield 14-13 for the City 2A championship in a game played at Glendale High.

Covering the game for the LA Times was current Times columnist Jerry "Notes from Press Row" Crowe.

Pete Arbogast celebrated that night.

2007-12-04 19:13:20
380.   MC Safety
378 Where there is smoke there is usually fire, unless it is really just a bunch of steam which could very well be the case. Next we hear Jeff rattling off all the names of every black guy that he's ever played with besides Bonds and Bradley. I never said he was a racist I just said I havent seen anything to balance it out.
2007-12-04 19:16:36
381.   StolenMonkey86
From the "Nashville Confidential" blog:

The Mets sent the Orioles a trade proposal of right-handers Aaron Heilman and Philip Humber and Chris Gomez for left-handed starter Erik Bedard. That offer was politely declined by the Orioles, who are believed to be seeking a package approaching what Minnesota is requiring for left-hander Johan Santana.

What kind of offer is that?

2007-12-04 19:17:34
382.   D Money
probably a ridiculous one
2007-12-04 19:18:55
383.   NorCal-Dodger
379 I was there that night also, lot of my good friends were on that team. Can't beleive next year will be 25 years!
2007-12-04 19:22:34
384.   Bob Timmermann
It's been 25 years since my senior year of high school too.
2007-12-04 19:27:40
385.   JRSarno
I guess you're saying that the "standard" that you have identified (or attempted to define) now is that of a general irresponsibility in the media with respect to news reporting and dispersing "rumors" that have absolutely no veracity or underlying merit. I doubt you'd find many people (of sound mind) who'd disagree with the proposition that the BLIND propagation of baseless rumors for mere commercialization purposes (or simply to drive up the price of players in the market) is reckless. But I guess that presupposes there is truly no merit to the rumors. With respect to the A. Jones rumor, you're point is well taken, insofar as Colletti completely discredited virtually any ounce of truth in that. Until he does so with the alleged Bedard "rumor," I'm not going to necessarily agree with sweeping conclusions about the potential baselessness of this one and all others...
2007-12-04 19:32:01
386.   Andrew Shimmin
I'm about a month younger than Steve Schmoll, and about three months older than Ghame Over.

Is there a reason we're going with a euphemism for "racist," instead of just using the word?

2007-12-04 19:32:25
387.   Daniel Zappala
373 I compliment you on your choices. Very nice.
2007-12-04 19:32:26
388.   Daniel Zappala
373 I compliment you on your choices. Very nice.
2007-12-04 19:33:03
389.   Daniel Zappala
The terrible double click that comes from too much piano practice.
2007-12-04 19:33:25
390.   Andrew Shimmin
Only a bad father would double post. . .
2007-12-04 19:36:45
391.   trainwreck
Never knew Shimmin was that young.
2007-12-04 19:38:08
392.   Andrew Shimmin
391- I only seem old because I'm no fun.
2007-12-04 19:39:42
393.   jasonungar07
I am a PVL (36) and white and if Kent said that to me I would go tell him to go "Green Team" himself.
2007-12-04 19:41:17
394.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Regarding Kent, Dusty Baker has said that Kent would set up black players with white women--in his view, that's a pretty weird thing for a r-word fellow to do. The frictions between him and the kids probably just has more to do with some degree of culture clash, and Kent's own notorious grouchiness.

Kent's still my favorite Dodger; a HoF IMO, and probably still necessary in our power-weak offense, even if Kemp and LaRoche get everyday playing time. Sure, his behavior in the clubhouse hasn't helped matters, but I couldn't care less, as long as he hits.


2007-12-04 19:47:11
395.   Andrew Shimmin
It's not been an enjoyable game to watch, but, USC is leading #2 Memphis by six, with eighteen minutes left.
2007-12-04 19:52:30
396.   JoeyP
Santana for Crisp, Lester, Masterson, Lowrie, Kalish.

What a deal for the Red Sox...They get Santana, dump Crisp on the Twins, and only have to deal Lester + filler.

2007-12-04 19:52:42
397.   Brian Y has a new article talking about some of the rumors, a possible Andruw signing, and that Broxton is pretty much untouchable.
2007-12-04 19:54:19
398.   trainwreck
Some of the offensive moves in this game are maddening.

And Memphis still cannot shoot.

2007-12-04 19:54:29
399.   Eric Stephen
395 USC has been playing good defense in the early season, but unfortunately it's only been about 35 minutes of hell.
2007-12-04 19:55:43
400.   Andrew Shimmin
It's a lot like what I remember high school basketball looking like. Except the coaches are better dressed. And there are people in the stands.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-12-04 19:58:47
401.   bigcpa
Rumorthal latest:

The Dodgers are now the team in hottest pursuit of Cardinals third baseman Scott Rolen, according to major-league sources... The Dodgers are seeking an upgrade at third base, but likely would want the Cardinals to assume a portion of the $33 million remaining on Rolen's contract.

2007-12-04 19:59:29
402.   underdog
Who cares about Santana and Cabrera and Jones and so on! Some Rule 5 Draft rumors are up on the BA site:

I doubt any Dodgers will be taken, except possibly Wesley Wright, and doubt even more that the Dodgers will take anyone. Yah?

2007-12-04 19:59:35
403.   Jon Weisman
348, 351 -

Generalization: "its in every altercation between a white guy and a black guy."

Pretty strong generalization: "maybe the its the "urban" attitude that black players usually exhibit (which often comes off as disrespectful, especially to "old school" players) and not their skin color?"

Generalization: "nobody gets along with Bonds or Bradley"

It might not have been your intent to generalize, but that's certainly how it came across. So again, you might want to watch your language.

All this in response to a commenter asking, "how many times can Jeff Kent butt heads with an African American over petty issues and not be called the R word?" which is not a generalization, but an open-ended question about a single individual.

And if your intent is not to tell a commenter to "get over it" then don't direct that comment to him.

2007-12-04 20:00:37
404.   trainwreck
Everytime I see Kalish's name I think:

No toilet in here, only Kalkalash.

2007-12-04 20:01:22
405.   MC Safety
394 Thats interesting. Jeff Kent playing match maker is a hilarious thought.
2007-12-04 20:01:44
406.   natepurcell

Miguel Cabrera, dealt to Detroit in Tuesday's blockbuster, was at the top of the Dodgers' target list. But Colletti refused to part with three premium players (believed to be Jonathan Broxton, Kemp and Clayton Kershaw) plus prospect Andy LaRoche.

That package is more than the Tigers package....for JUST Cabrera!

2007-12-04 20:03:34
407.   oshea2002
Per Rosenthal - uhh

The Dodgers are now the team in hottest pursuit of Cardinals third baseman Scott Rolen, according to major-league sources.

The Brewers had been the front-runner, but their talks with the Cardinals cooled early Tuesday and appear unlikely to revive.

The Cardinals' preference is to trade Rolen out of the division. The Dodgers are seeking an upgrade at third base, but likely would want the Cardinals to assume a portion of the $33 million remaining on Rolen's contract.

Several other teams also are interested in Rolen, including the Angels, who failed in their efforts to acquire Miguel Cabrera from the Marlins.

2007-12-04 20:07:22
408.   JoeyP
What does Nomar think, now that even the mainstream baseball media has picked up on the "Dodgers seek upgrade at 3rd base" thing?

Is Nomar going to be the highest paid utility player in the history of baseball next year?

2007-12-04 20:08:52
409.   trainwreck
I would be nice to see a rumor that actually excited me.
2007-12-04 20:11:38
410.   bigcpa
I wouldn't want Rolen for a bag of balls. 8 HR in 400 AB- yech. If health is the worry on LaRoche why would you look to Rolen for stability?
2007-12-04 20:14:00
411.   Megaballs
Just hurry up and fire Flanders. Seriously.
In a world of $10,11,12mil a year Meches, Jose Guillens, I can field a team of 25 players making $400k a year! These players are golden. Develop your farm every year. Lock up the arb players you like past free agency like Pujols and Peavy a few years back. Its not rocket science.

The real epiphany for Ned this past month would be if he realized that the Dodgers would be a better team if he'd NEVER done anything these past 24 months...and the payroll would be significantly he'd be more profitable.

I'm to believe its in our interest to CONSIDER injury-prone players with huge contracts like Rolen or Bedard for LaRoche and Bison respectively? After paying $17mil/year for an injured Jason Schmidt?
What Ned, you have two years of a reasonable contract for for him then extend him?!?

Ned come home and extend BRAD PENNY! He's got the same situation and he's already here!

And if Kent stories of trash cans and tucked shirts are true, he's gotta go. Addition by subtraction. Ever worked in a hostile envioronment because of belligerent senior co-workers...tense...


2007-12-04 20:14:08
412.   natepurcell
Jones and Kuroda still seem like the most effective way to go.
2007-12-04 20:14:46
413.   D Money
i'm being made out to be the bad guy here for just pointing out that he doesn't have to be racist to not get along with black players. there are other possibilities. and most of those comments i made were in response to later comments, not the original one.
they may be generalizations but you'd be hard pressed to disprove any of them.
and i meant get over it as in get over the racism tag that is so freely thrown about these days.
2007-12-04 20:15:36
414.   Terry A
Wonder if there's a way to swap four years of Pierre for one year of a broken-down, past-his-prime Jim Edmonds?
2007-12-04 20:16:24
415.   Daniel Zappala
409 Just for you:

"The Tampa Rays are continuing to revamp their outfield and are interested in moving Carl Crawford if they can acquire young pitching. The Dodgers are a good match, and could send McDonald and Pierre in return."

Totally made up by me, of course, but no better or worse than you'll get elsewhere.

2007-12-04 20:18:01
416.   MC Safety
Anyone else wondering Ozzie Guillen's reaction to the Venezuelan connection in Detroit? Chicago has there work cut out for them this year. 2005 seems like soooo long ago.
2007-12-04 20:18:30
417.   Megaballs
To be fair, Ned has passed on these deals or hasn't yet made them.
Godd for him.
2007-12-04 20:19:43
418.   scareduck
409 - Eva Longoria to your living room.
2007-12-04 20:19:51
419.   Curtis Lowe
412 - Make it so..
2007-12-04 20:20:52
420.   trainwreck
Hey guys, I just heard from a trusted source that we are getting Carl Crawford for Juan Pierre.
2007-12-04 20:20:59
421.   D Money
just hope Evan doesn't show up instead.
2007-12-04 20:21:12
422.   JoeyP
411--I'm not sure if Penny will be interested in an extension right now. He's probably eager to experience free agency, where he might be the best pitcher on the market. Penny may command 125+ million to sign if he stays healthy the next two years.
2007-12-04 20:23:56
423.   thinkblue0

If we're after a starter, our best option at this point is to just sign Kuroda.

Why we're after Rolen is absolutely beyond me...

2007-12-04 20:25:21
424.   MC Safety
422 I dont see why he wouldnt take a nice Peavy type deal that works for both sides. Brad Penny looks like a big mean guy but he has a soft voice, which is all I am going off right now.
2007-12-04 20:25:52
425.   scareduck
421 - what a difference an N makes!
2007-12-04 20:26:25
426.   das411
409 , does this mean that nobody has noticed the Lincecum for Rios rumor that is currently dropping?

414 - How many years of a broken-down Rolen would also have to come back in that package?

Pierre and Nomah for Edmonds and Rolen...hmm...

2007-12-04 20:28:31
427.   Marty
I'd give Penny anything he wants if he can keep a gallon of Milk down for an hour.
2007-12-04 20:30:47
428.   tsundstrom
I think Rolen has something like three years on his contract. Please can we go back to being the front runners for Bedard? That's looking better and better with each passing note about Scott Rolen. OPS+ of 84 and 89 in two of the past three years, yay Ned. Can you say Mike Blowers all over again? Wait, at least he was coming off a career year.


2007-12-04 20:30:57
429.   trainwreck
Steve Phillips mentioned that rumor this morning.

See underdog, Steve Phillips is all knowing.

2007-12-04 20:38:59
430.   Jon Weisman
413 - You're simply being asked to consider the words you write and the words others have written more carefully. Nearly every comment here - including, most notably, the comment that started it all, has said that there are other options besides Kent being racist, yet you seemingly refuse to see that. It's my guess, though I don't know that, that your impatience with this issue is preventing you from seeing the more moderate language others are using in comparison to yours.

As for the generalizations, racism is simply not identified as part of every conflict between a black person and a white person, and Bonds and Bradley have prominent white supporters. As for "the "urban" attitude that black players usually exhibit (which often comes off as disrespectful, especially to "old school" players)" do I really need to make a list of the people that statement doesn't apply to?

2007-12-04 20:41:49
431.   D Money
meh, i didnt say everytime, but point taken.
2007-12-04 20:43:07
432.   blue22
Not surprising considering the Dodger's continual youth vs. PVL showdowns, there isn't a current Dodger within at least 12 months of my age (32).

428 - 3 years/$36M left on Rolen's contract. Full no-trade clause.

2007-12-04 20:45:41
433.   D Money
if some of these rumors are true i would be under the impression that Colletti is on the verge of "making a move just to make a move" as he has done in the past.
he seems to finally have some sort of thought process in his "attempted" dealings so far though.
-crosses fingers-
2007-12-04 20:49:32
434.   blue22
426 - Edmonds is only due $8M in this the last year on his contract. Better than the probable contract for Rowand and Andruw.
2007-12-04 20:52:35
435.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 433

IF they're true. Talk about big ifs.


2007-12-04 20:54:19
436.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
I'm with Nate--Jones and Kuroda look like the best options--and it lets us keep the kids. And because the kids are so cost-effective, in the long run, Jones and Kuroda won't be as expensive as their contracts will look initially.


2007-12-04 20:55:11
437.   underdog
429 Hmm-mm. Well, it is a sad state of affairs when he looks like one of the more reasonable prognosticators this week.

Okay, I'm going to bed. Wake me when it's March. Thanks.

2007-12-04 20:56:56
438.   D Money
who is the odd man out in the OF?
i'd hope JP
i guess some sort of platoon thing with JP Kemp Ethier would be the worst thing that could happen.
2007-12-04 20:59:44
439.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 438

Pray Torre benches him and makes a 4th OF. Of course, who knows if that'll actually happen.


2007-12-04 20:59:46
440.   Kevin Lewis
I just finished reading the whole thread, and it was interesting to say the least. I just don't understand the demands that are rumored to be made of the Dodgers for Miggy if the Tigers were able to pull that off.

All I have left to offer:

28 years old DOB 09/11

2007-12-04 21:00:22
441.   Megaballs
Nate's way is obviously the right way. CF is a need in the system. A Jones has bigtime power, OBP not so much. Rest of lineup more the opposite.

Seriously, this Dodger team may not have this type of collection of youth and skill a time when people crave a few of these guys , we have early talent everywhere...I'd rather Ned do nothing than break it up. But we should be identifying keepers each year. This year, extend Penny. Later Martin and Bills, then Kemp, etc

2007-12-04 21:04:43
442.   MC Safety
Only way I see Coletti getting Rolen is if LaRoche goes to Baltimore for Bedard. A LaRoche, Elbert/McDonald, Meloan beats the Mets supposed package of Humber, Gomez, Heilman without a sweat. Also, having heard Bedard is not going anywhere in the AL East, this could be a real possibility. I dont know how long they plan on playing Melvin Mora at 3rd, but that could work out very nicely for them.
2007-12-04 21:06:44
443.   MC Safety
FWIW, I am 24 and share a B day with Lexinthedena.
2007-12-04 21:12:47
444.   oshea2002
Gurnick just updated - said the Dodgers still pursuing Andruw - and that Boras and Jones know they are only willing to do a short term deal - but that there is mutual interest.

I agree, CF and Kuroda and I'm liking next year.

2007-12-04 21:16:24
445.   Jason in Canada
The Dodgers are now the team in hottest pursuit of Cardinals third baseman Scott Rolen, according to major-league sources - K.Rosenthal

I have this funny little picture in my head of Ned running through the hallways in Nashville with his white tie flipped back over his shoulder screaming into a cell phone.

What does it actually look like for a team to be in hot pursuit of a player?

2007-12-04 21:17:25
446.   Fallout
Re: Kent and his attitude.
What man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?
2007-12-04 21:17:29
447.   natepurcell

Tim Brown Article on Colletti and Dodgers.

2007-12-04 21:19:48
448.   natepurcell
Apparently Marlins made one last phone call to the Dodgers before they made the Tigers deal.

Colletti didn't even pick it up.

2007-12-04 21:22:32
449.   trainwreck

The thought of Ned wearing black cowboy boots is hilarious.

2007-12-04 21:22:43
450.   Megaballs
this article actually make me like Ned...Its good to say no sometimes...and hard to boot! I can respect that.
He probably could have had MCAB and D Train for Kershaw, LaRoche and stuff.
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2007-12-04 21:25:24
451.   MC Safety
What is to become of Andre Ethier? He seems like a bargain waiting to happen. If Kemp goes for Bedard he's ok, but if we sign Kuroda and Jones and keep Matty, what happens to Andre? He is too good for the 4th OF tag, imo.
2007-12-04 21:26:17
452.   LogikReader
When I got home I found out the Cabrera trade was official. You know, in a way, this trade really hurts to see. It's like when you try to ask a really hot girl out and she tells you "I'll let you know if I'm free later." Then, this other guy comes in who is better looking and just sweeps her off her feet.

THAT's what today feels like, even though I think Kemp can be just as good as Cabrera and possibly better (certainly better defensively).

2007-12-04 21:27:24
453.   regfairfield
448 Wow. That's just horrible, if not negligant.
2007-12-04 21:27:55
454.   trojanmansaki
In light of this current Scott Rolen rumor, I don't see it happening, because if I recall correctly, didn't Rolen leave Philly on negative terms because of his feud with our current third base coach Larry Bowa? And since he has a no trade clause, wouldn't he veto such a deal?
2007-12-04 21:29:24
455.   Eric Stephen
There is a very real chance the Marlins' 2008 payroll will be $15 million or less. Amazing.

Their 25-man roster essentially consists of 19 players under team control (0-3 years service time, will make the minimum $390,000 or close to it), and the following six arb-eligible players:

C - Miguel Olivo (2nd year arb, made $2m in 2007)
CL - Kevin Gregg (2nd year arb, made $575k in 2007)
IF/OF - Alfredo Amezaga (1st year arb)
C - Matt Treanor (1st year arb)
SP - Sergio Mitre (1st year arb; part of the Pierre haul)
RP - Justin Miller (1st year arb)

With Dontrelle & Cabrera last year, the Marlins payroll was roughly $28m.

2007-12-04 21:29:35
456.   Jason in Canada
What an interesting Yahoo article. Now I know why Ned has a migraine with all the hot pursuing of Scott Rolen in shiny black cowboy boots.

Everyone knows you don't run in cowboy boots.

2007-12-04 21:30:03
457.   dzzrtRatt
Ay caramba these rumors and the resultant explosions of temper aimed at Colletti. If you could harness that, you'd have enough energy to power Los Angeles, although I don't know, maybe bile is a greenhouse gas.

We could do a variation of "Make Me Laugh" called "Make Me Get Mad at Colleti." Scott Rolen for Kemp, Billingsley and Loney! Not mad yet? Throw in Kershaw! Okay, you're getting a little steamed. Now, let's throw in Juan Pierre...except we have to pay all his salary and we have to take David Eckstein! BOOM!

BTW Marty in 323 , I didn't count today. My actual birthday is 1/13/56, not 14.

2007-12-04 21:30:05
458.   D Money
the only thing funnier than colletti in black cowboy boots is his warning that he might be cranky while wearing them

i saw it as, this pretty girl is full of baggage and she told me know and went some other sucker and i later realized WHEW that was close.
when i saw that deal i sad THANK GOD

2007-12-04 21:30:14
459.   D Money
the only thing funnier than colletti in black cowboy boots is his warning that he might be cranky while wearing them

i saw it as, this pretty girl is full of baggage and she told me know and went some other sucker and i later realized WHEW that was close.
when i saw that deal i sad THANK GOD

2007-12-04 21:30:45
460.   Jon Weisman
Tripp Cromer is five days older than me.
2007-12-04 21:31:12
461.   Eric Stephen
I believe the very tolerant and all-around good guy Dallas Green also played a part in Rolen's exodus from Philly.
2007-12-04 21:31:21
462.   LogikReader
...and NOW I have read the Yahoo! article. I gotta give it up to NedCo on this one. The bait and switch didn't work, and instead, Ned took his 6 shooter, twirled it, put it down and and shot down some glasses of whiskey. foof!

In a few years we'll be talking about how Cabrera walked away from the Tigers after a short stay (and 30 lbs gained) and how the Tigers declined, while the Dodgers could be winning their third straight NL West.

Or I can at least dream about it =)

2007-12-04 21:31:31
463.   LAT
Because it is my job here at DT to post things like this: (although the source is a non-source but that's seems to be the theme for the day.)

The Rays are looking at Shawn Green, Brad Wilkerson and Geoff Jenkins as right field options.
Yahoo! Sports' Jeff Passan believes they'll target Green, as the other two are seeking multiyear deals at about $7 million per season. The Giants are also showing some interest in Green, who would prefer to play on the West Coast.

2007-12-04 21:32:21
464.   Eric Stephen
I am one day older than Jennifer Capriati.
2007-12-04 21:33:17
465.   CajunDodger

Hands down, one of the funniest comments I've read in a while.

I just spent about 30 minutes reading and catching up on today. All I can say is that it is a bit disappointing that the Dodgers couldn't get Miggy with it, but many of us here at DT have said that the expectations of our potential trade partners are just ridiculous in comparison to what other teams can offer. Either the reports are lies or people just want more from the Dodgers.


2007-12-04 21:34:16
466.   Jason in Canada
453 I'm sure teams miss phone calls all the time. If only the Expo's GM had missed the call with a migraine that fateful day in 1993.
2007-12-04 21:34:51
467.   Eric L
453 I'm guessing that by the time they called, Ned already had a pretty good idea about the players involved in the trade. Apparently he had a migraine and knew he wasn't going to top the trade. A thanks, but no thanks would have probably been more professional but negligent is a bit strong.l

454 Good call on the Rolen-Bowa thing. Has Rosenthal been close on any of the rumored deals yet this offseason? Until he hits on something good, I don't think I would even pay attention.

2007-12-04 21:35:22
468.   LogikReader
I initially thought it was Florida trying to ask too much from LA but settle for less from the Tigers. After some more reading, I recognized that wasn't so much the case. I read the Yahoo! article after that so I take back what I said before and run with 462 .
2007-12-04 21:37:19
469.   dzzrtRatt
From Tim Brown: "Those pitchers the Yankees and Red Sox are fighting over? Maybe Billingsley becomes something like that. Maybe Kershaw and Broxton do. Maybe one of them, if they're very lucky, does. That's valuable, right? That's worth holding to, right?"

Billingsley and Broxton have been much more than "something like that" for a season and a half on the Dodgers. Brown should know better. The Yankees were offering pitching prospects. Philip Hughes is still a prospect. Ian Kennedy even more so. Ned was being asked for two prospects, Kershaw and LaRoche, and for some of four low price, high ceiling players off the ML roster.

No wonder he's got a migraine.

2007-12-04 21:39:26
470.   D Money
i think he was referring to the pitchers they are going after? they wouldn't be fighting over their own prospects...
2007-12-04 21:39:28
471.   natepurcell
Good call on the Rolen-Bowa thing. Has Rosenthal been close on any of the rumored deals yet this offseason? Until he hits on something good, I don't think I would even pay attention.

He started the Torre campaign if I remembered correctly.

2007-12-04 21:42:03
472.   JoeyP
I dont think Maybin/Miller + Filler is that good of deal for the Marlins, and I also dont think it would have hurt the Dodgers to top that deal.

I'm not sure what Jeff Passan is going for in that yahoo article. Giving up Maybin (they already have Granderson), and Miller isnt going to kill them.

Plus, I dont see why they think they wont be able to sign Miggy in two years. Magglio's deal comes off the books, as does Renteria's IIRC.

I think its a great trade for the Tigers. If the Dodgers would have offered Kemp/McDonald/LaRoche---I think it would have topped the Tigers offer and still been a good deal for the Dodgers.

I think Ned let a golden opportunity slip through his hands.

2007-12-04 21:42:07
473.   Jason in Canada
Tripp Cromer always seemed like he was the last remaining member of the gas house gang playing in the bigs.

But my dad loved Tripp. Cause my dad always liked players that "hustled".

2007-12-04 21:42:41
474.   D Money
<<same b-day as houdini, steve mcqueen, mase, louie anderson and peyton manning... just YEARS later!
2007-12-04 21:44:09
475.   dzzrtRatt
470 I thought the comment referred to the young pitchers the Red Sox and Yankees are fighting with the Twins over -- the number and identity of the young prospects. Maybe I read it wrong, but I got the sense he was putting Billingsley and Broxton on the level with Buchholz and Hughes. Not that Buchholz and Hughes might not surpass Billingsley, but I think Billz and Broxton are proven major leaguers now, well above average, with only their ceiling unknown.

My apologies to Tim Brown if I got it wrong. I've got the flu and my brain has temporarily been replaced with an old gym towel I found behind the washing machine.

2007-12-04 21:44:11
476.   natepurcell
I think its a great trade for the Tigers. If the Dodgers would have offered Kemp/McDonald/LaRoche---I think it would have topped the Tigers offer and still been a good deal for the Dodgers.

If you have been reading all the article (especially that Tim Brown one), the Marlins weren't asking for that offer.

2007-12-04 21:46:04
477.   FirstMohican
I thought Brown's article was a little snide at first, but now I can't really tell.

If the Marlins really did want Kemp, Loney and Kershaw for Cabrera, they's crazy.

2007-12-04 21:51:56
478.   JoeyP
476--It just doesnt make sense though from the Marlins perspective.

They dont go from asking for Kemp/Loney/Kershaw, to settling for what the Tigers gave them.

There's a middle ground there, and its up to a GM to find it. Colletti didnt, and that basically sucks.

2007-12-04 21:52:08
479.   CanuckDodger
453 -- What, are you kidding? It was encouraging to read that. Your reaction reminds me of Plaschke/Simers (one or both, I can't remember exactly) getting upset about Dan Evans not returning Boras's phone calls when Boras was lobbying in the media for the Dodgers to extend Chan-Ho Park long term at $20 million a year. Screw the damn Marlins. What they were demanding from the Dodgers was downright insulting when you look at what they demanded from other teams.
2007-12-04 21:53:41
480.   LAT
Here is what I want to know. Did Ned buy the cowboy boots because the meetings are in Nashville or did he already own them. If the meeting were in Denmark would he have been wearing clogs.
2007-12-04 21:55:11
481.   CajunDodger
Not sure either. It must make the youngsters a little more secure in their positions and excited to play for the Dodgers next year.
2007-12-04 21:56:39
482.   Eric Stephen
I was thinking the same thing in that article! I think Ned saw the location of the meetings and decided it was a perfect opportunity to flaunt the boots, which he already owned.

Then again, the winter meetings have yet to take place in Norco and yet Ned still sports that stache.

2007-12-04 22:02:03
483.   Eric L
478 It's water under the bridge now, but it is possible that Colletti did try to find the middle ground and Beinfest didn't budge.
2007-12-04 22:02:44
484.   Bob Timmermann
Danes wear clogs?
2007-12-04 22:06:57
485.   MC Safety
473 My Pops grew up in Arcadia playing football and was never really into baseball, but that was the one thing I remember him telling me, always "hustle". Hustle, and keep your eye on the ball! Thanks, Pops!
2007-12-04 22:17:41
486.   Jason in Canada
I know from living next to Lynden, Washington that the Dutch still proudly wear clogs. If you send me money, I can buy you a pair and some oly-bolen.
2007-12-04 22:24:20
487.   Xeifrank
486. If that's the case then Bob needs to use a picture of clogs in one of his picture puzzles. vr, Xei
2007-12-04 22:32:00
488.   Bob Timmermann
But LAT spoke of people in DENMARK wearing clogs.

And from my research, the Danes do wear clogs or at least they did. They just publicize it as much as the Dutch do.

2007-12-04 22:33:12
489.   MC Safety
I didnt even notice Ohman and Infante to the Braves for a Jose Ascanio. So it's Renteria and Ascanio for Jurrjens, Infante and Ohman essentially so far right? Not that this is the magic rabbit, but the Braves are always pulling something out of their tophat.
2007-12-04 22:34:35
490.   neuroboy002
So Kris Benson, former #1 Draft Pick phenom, is recovering from shoulder surgery. Is anyone here willing to put a flier on him for 1 year, at a salary less than Loaiza is making? Or would that be a waste of time and resources? I prefer Benson over Looaiza, although his wife could be a distraction....
2007-12-04 22:42:27
491.   bhsportsguy
The great thing about going to a Clipper game with ToyCannon, you are not interrupted by Clipper baskets while you discuss Dodger prospects.
2007-12-04 22:45:45
492.   MC Safety
Pitching available I find intriguing:
1. Santana
2. Bedard
3. Kuroda
4. Haren/Blanton
5. Cliff Lee

Hitting available I find intriguing:
1. Andruw Jones

2007-12-04 22:52:50
493.   Bob Timmermann
This guy likes Walter O'Malley like I like peaches.

And his arguments are about as persuasive as my arguments for hating peaches.

2007-12-04 23:16:49
494.   bhsportsguy
Since we have talked about incidents with Jeff Kent and the Netherlands, those that enjoy David Sedaris should listen to this:

Go to 25 minute mark or so and take a listen to his story.

2007-12-04 23:20:25
495.   jasonungar07
Yeah even Nomar is like, huh Scott Rolen?

Props to Ned. I bash him enough. I like this "Bizzaro" Ned way better than "Giants WS runner up ring" Ned

2007-12-04 23:21:58
496.   silverwidow
Dylan Hernandez has a new Times article up. It talks about having an interest in Iguchi at 3rd base (huh???) and contacting the Brewers about Bill Hall.

Sounds pretty stupid if you ask me.

2007-12-04 23:30:05
497.   Eric Stephen
Peavy's extension appears finalized, with kind of a huge bump in the option year:

Current Contract
2008 (age 27): $6m
2009 (28): $8m (was previously a club option)

New Extension
2010 (29): $15m
2011 (30): $16m
2012 (31): $17m
2013 (32): $22m option ($4m buyout)

Other Pitchers Signed Through 2012/2013
Zito (age 34 in 2012): $19m / $20m
Zambrano (age 31): $18m / $19.25m vesting option
Oswalt (age 34): $16m club option / FA
Dice K (age 31): $10m / FA

I don't think any other players are signed through 2012.

Incidentally, 2012 will be Mr. Billingsley's final year of arbitration eligibility, although hopefully he will have signed a long-term deal through at least 2012 by then. Also, the U.S. will have no doubt moved from a dollar-based economy to one using Kershaw Kurrency by then.

2007-12-04 23:33:52
498.   MC Safety
So Iguchi is being considered for an upgrade at third? Whoever was involved in printing that should be fired.
2007-12-04 23:36:16
499.   Eric Stephen
Maybe Iguchi is Kent retirement insurance. However, I'm willing to chalk the interest up to "kicking the tires", as ToyCannon so eloquently mentioned previously.
2007-12-04 23:37:48
500.   Eric Stephen
497 should read, "I don't think any other pitchers are signed through 2012."
Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2007-12-04 23:45:18
501.   natepurcell
If Orioles don't trade Bedard this winter, I think we would be a huge player for him at th deadline.

I also think we will be in better position to deal for him as some of our elite arms will be healthy enough to show their stuff (Elbert + Morris).

2007-12-04 23:46:56
502.   dzzrtRatt
Well, now it's all clear.

Colletti said the Marlins wanted a four-player package for Cabrera that included James Loney, Matt Kemp and Kershaw, which made him "reexamine" Loney and Kemp and led him to asking himself why they couldn't fill that role.

"How do you know that can't happen?" Colletti said.

Loney, Kemp and Kershaw now score high using Coletti's system: Who's-to-say-bermetrics.

2007-12-04 23:56:24
503.   Eric Stephen
Even if this is ridiculous, I absolutely love it when teams think outside the box. Arizona to possibly use Owings at 1B a few times in 2008?...

For reference, Owings has hit .333/.349/.683 in 64 PA, and hit .371/.375/.516 in all of 66 minor league PA

2007-12-05 00:01:59
504.   KG16
455 - baseball needs a rule like the NBA (and probably the other two major sports that sets a minimum team salary.
2007-12-05 00:37:19
505.   KG16
Dontrelle Willis on Sportscenter, in talking about playing for the Marlins: just because we played in a small market.

In what universe is Miami a small market?

2007-12-05 01:33:46
506.   Eric Enders
505 In the universe where nobody who lives there cares about baseball or goes to games.

Also in the universe where Miami is the 17th largest television market in the U.S., meaning that 21 of the other 29 teams play in bigger TV markets.

2007-12-05 05:29:43
507.   Bumsrap
I heard Blaylock's name mentioned last night. Also said was that the timing was not good for Texas to trade him because his balue was down after last year.

If he is healthy again and has "charactor", I wouldn't mind seeing him on the Dodgers.

Now that Cabrera is gone, if the Dodgers sign Kuroda they just might not make a bad trade.

2007-12-05 05:40:37
508.   rockmrete
And he said it is even more difficult for the Dodgers to deal their top young players because, unlike many of the prospects in the Cabrera deal, the Dodgers players that other clubs are asking for (except for Kershaw) are already proven in the Major Leagues.

"You see what it costs to acquire a player and how much the core of your team is uprooted to do it,"

Per Colletti.MLB website

I'm glad he stayed the course, but how can Detroit send six players over to Florida and not have to reach into it's Magor League roster to do it. Whereas LA would have created at least two holes, and still have a large payroll.

2007-12-05 05:48:22
509.   Bumsrap
McCourt and Colletti both know that fans like to see their team mentioned in trade rumors for elite players. Combine that with the Dodgers wanting to sign Kuroda and indirectly pressuring him to sign before the Dodgers alledgedly trade for Santana or Bedard.
2007-12-05 06:10:29
510.   Ken Noe
More confirmation from the Times that Rosenthal is clueless: "With Cabrera traded to the Tigers, the Dodgers are exploring other ways to upgrade at third base. The Dodgers have expressed an interest in free agent Tadahito Iguchi, according to Iguchi's agent, Rocky Hall. Another option could be to trade for Troy Glaus of Toronto. A more remote possibility would be a deal for the Cardinals' Scott Rolen, but Colletti said the Dodgers aren't close to a deal with St. Louis."
2007-12-05 06:19:27
511.   D4P
It's not at all surprising that Ned would think an upgrade over LaRoche is needed. It's wrong, but not surprising.

It is surprising, however, that Ned would think an upgrade over Nomar is needed.

The weird thing about Ned is that he seems to realize very quickly that certain decisions were mistakes (e.g. Baez, Pierre, Nomar), but doesn't realize they are going to be mistakes before he makes them.

If he's able to realize they were mistakes after they arrive, why can't he realize they are going to be mistakes before they arrive? It's not as if these players start massively underperforming as Dodgers.

2007-12-05 06:28:50
512.   Ken Noe
Well, the Iguchi story has been out there for weeks, and now comes again from an agent. Glaus just seems to be a reporter's thinking. Rolen, what I hear is that maybe he came up in a conversation. NedCo FWIW was pretty clear yesterday that LaRoche or Nomar would fight it out for third now. Who knows, maybe the plan would be for Iguchi to play 2b. NedCo didn't say how he had settled the clubhouse problem.
2007-12-05 06:42:06
513.   Sam DC
Online chat with Martina Navratilova hosted at the Post today at 2:30 eastern/11:30 pacific!

2007-12-05 06:45:29
514.   Ranma
Someone posted the scouting reports for the top 10 Dodgers prospects from Baseball America's subscription section in a thread over at the Dodgers forum.

Clayton Kershaw
"The Future: He offers a promising combination of front-of-the-rotation stuff and the work ethic to reach his ceiling as an ace. Some in the organization say Kershaw's stuff is more advanced than Chad Billingsley's and Jonathan Broxton's at the same stage of their development. Now Kershaw has to apply the polish. He'll most likely open what could be his last season in the minors in Double-A."

My contribution to the age scoreboard: 32 years old

2007-12-05 06:59:38
515.   Marty
Eddie Murray seems to be the closest to my birthdate. About 50 days apart
2007-12-05 07:07:42
516.   Daniel Zappala
493 I would bet that there if you could track all the descendants of the original Brooklyn fans, there are more of them living in Los Angeles than living in Brooklyn.
2007-12-05 07:23:17
517.   Benaiah
Ned Colletti: Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Every quote and action has demonstrated that his new strategy is "let's see what the kids will do," meanwhile, the people who like the kids don't believe him and the people who want to trade for the superstars think he isn't doing enough. Let's wait until the winter meetings are over to have a heart attack.

I'll be 24 on Friday, the 67th anniversary of Pearl Harbor.

PS I saw "Lars and the Real Girl" last night and I really want to talk about it, Jon. Unfortunately, I am on my way out the door.

2007-12-05 07:33:36
518.   Disabled List
516 I'm one, sort of. My dad was a huge Brooklyn Dodger fan growing up in Queens in the 40s and 50s. His family moved to LA one year before the Dodgers did, so eventually I grew up a huge Dodger fan too (although I don't live in LA anymore).

My dad liked to say that he was probably the only person not affiliated with baseball in any way who has seen no-hitters at both Ebbets Field and Dodger Stadium. I always wondered if that was true.

2007-12-05 07:42:16
519.   ToyCannon
I got the impression from ToasterTV that you had already seen it, and called it lightweight.
2007-12-05 07:44:46
520.   Gen3Blue
514 thanks for the link.
2007-12-05 08:00:57
521.   Sam DC
Joe Posnanski on Evel Knievel, Capricorn One, and, well, everything.

2007-12-05 08:04:46
522.   CanuckDodger
519 -- ToyCannon, yesterday you asked for my updated Top 30 Prospects list. I posted it at TrueBlueLA.
2007-12-05 08:04:50
523.   Terry A
Chris Truby, who signed with the Dodgers in 2005 but to my knowledge never logged any playing time with the club, is two years my junior.

Our birthday is Sunday. He will be 34. And Eric Stults will be 28.

2007-12-05 08:05:44
524.   Ken Noe
My West Virginia-born grandmother became a Dodger fan when Robinson came up. I asked her once what she thought of the move to LA, and she told me that she never really cared. She was never going to get to New York, and she was never going to get to Los Angeles either.
2007-12-05 08:11:01
525.   Sam DC
2007-12-05 08:15:39
526.   D4P
Lo Duca is an accomplished hitter and, as one official told me last night, "a gamer."
2007-12-05 08:25:26
527.   Gen3Blue
525 Yikes Indeed, Sam!
2007-12-05 08:26:48
528.   Bob Timmermann
I guess she didn't understand that people in Brooklyn were special.


They lived life like no other Americans! Dick Young was their James Madison.

2007-12-05 08:36:38
529.   Sam DC
Projected Rule 5 draft order.
2007-12-05 08:40:44
530.   ToyCannon
Thanks, we have a nice group of lists. Great to see that Nate also took the time to post his.
2007-12-05 08:42:49
531.   ToyCannon
Why wouldn't you want LaDuca for one year at a reasonable price? You had the worse hitting catcher in baseball last year and your worried about LaDuca?
2007-12-05 08:47:48
532.   Sam DC
531 1. He really rubs me the wrong way and there's been enough of that already (and, relatedly, having brought in Milledge for a fresh start bringing in LoDuca seems dangerous).

2. Harder to find, but a lefty catcher to platoon with Jesus Flores would be much more valuable, esp. with the Nats very RH lineup.

3. I think he will be way overpaid based on "gamer" status and people's recalling him as a good hitter based on 2001, which he has never repeated. And he seems so ripe to decline. The Mets desperately needed catching and they wouldn't have him back.

2007-12-05 08:50:37
533.   therickdaddy
Why is there negativity around Lo Duca? The Nats would be lucky to have him.
2007-12-05 08:51:20
534.   ToyCannon
Based on compensation picks the Brewers now have 5 picks in the 1st 100. The Mets made out like bandits when the Braves signed Glavine.
2007-12-05 08:52:37
535.   Sam DC
531 , 533 Chris' take, with actual information and stuff!

2007-12-05 09:06:24
536.   KG16
506 - the first point seems to be a function of bad franchise operations. The second is surprising, but my understanding is that the fans in Miami are passionate about the Dolphins and Heat. I guess I just see Miami as an actual big city, from my few trips there over the years.

Oh, and Happy Prohibition Repeal Day everyone.

2007-12-05 09:08:06
537.   El Lay Dave
I am four days younger than Ken Howell.

535 Lo Duca has a career 99 OPS+, pretty good for a catcher; unfortunately last year, at age 35, he put up an 80. If last year is an aberration instead of the start of a steady and fast decline, he might be a mid-90s OPS+ and an offensive improvement for the Nats. Of course, Lastings Milledge might find Lo Duca offensive in a different way.

2007-12-05 09:10:28
538.   ToyCannon
Excluding his fluke 2001 year LoDuca has the 11th highest OPS+ from 2002-2007 for catchers who have caught 500 games.

And he won't cost you a draft pick. I wouldn't do any more then one year but it sounds like he's willing to do a one year deal.

Sounds like your high on Flores but other then being cheap and young I'm not sure why. He was a rule 5 and should have spent 2007 playing full time in the minors but couldn't. Signing LoDuca for one year would give Flores the ability to get full time work in AAA and really hone his game. He will give a sub 300 OBP if he is your starting catcher in 2008. His hot streak in July was fueled by a 50% hit rate. Once that normalized you got what you'd expect.

2007-12-05 09:11:25
539.   shamrok

Baseball-wise, I think the Yankees and Red Sox are still the choice in baseball teams given the age of the local teams and the number of NE transplants down there.

2007-12-05 09:12:26
540.   Gen3Blue
I'm really not negative on LaDuca, especially on a one year deal. My Yikes was agreement that the Nats are assembling some interesting characters. Sam's going to live through interesting times.
Its also must be interesting to root for a team that can't afford to throw away 10 mil here and 10 mil there.
2007-12-05 09:13:45
541.   D4P
I find this weird.

Relative to 2006, LoDuca's 2007

* LD% increased
* GB% increased
* FB% increased


* BA decreased by 46 points

2007-12-05 09:14:05
542.   Andrew Shimmin
Nobody in his right mind would willingly sit outside, in Florida, during the summer. It's unbearable, even in the middle of the night. If the D'rays weren't awful, maybe people would go to those games.
2007-12-05 09:18:17
543.   D4P
Aren't you the guy who wears pants all year long, and sat outside in your suit at a wedding in a really hot location?
2007-12-05 09:22:41
544.   Jacob L
Happy Hanukkah, everybody!

I'm one day older than Matt Luke, who, as I've mentioned before, lived in my dorm. Glad I did that bit of research.

2007-12-05 09:23:49
545.   Andrew Shimmin
543- That's how I know.
2007-12-05 09:28:05
546.   StolenMonkey86
541 - FB% decreased

Also, his bunt hit percentage dropped from 25% to 0, For what it's worth (probably nothing).

2007-12-05 09:31:17
547.   D4P
Yeah, I meant FB% decreased.
2007-12-05 09:31:32
548.   ToyCannon
Since Ned has been linked to Blalock and Rolen it should just be a matter of time before Brandon Inge is mentioned.
2007-12-05 09:31:42
549.   KG16
541 - I'm guessing that means LoDuca struck out less. Ground balls could affect batting average by an increase in fielder's choices, double plays, and put outs at first; fly ball are obviously generally bad for batting average as they give the defense the best chance of recording an out. I didn't really get to see him play this year, but I'm guessing he has lost a step and might have tried to make up for that by swinging a bit more for the fences (hence more fly balls).

542 - all my trips to Miami have been during the summer. I always kind of liked it, but I thought the daily thunder showers were cool. I maintain my theory that it's bad ownership in Miami.

2007-12-05 09:33:03
550.   KG16
547 - ok, ignore the part about fly balls in 549 (except the impact on batting average).
Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2007-12-05 09:35:07
551.   D4P
Since Ned has been linked to Blalock and Rolen it should just be a matter of time before Brandon Inge is mentioned

Rotoworld mentioned him yesterday, and I mentioned yesterday that Rotoworld mentioned him.

2007-12-05 09:37:57
552.   LogikReader
Speaking of Inge, I will make my AL Central prediction early.

I predict: Tigers win the AL Central!

Just like I've done every year since 2002.

2007-12-05 09:46:03
553.   Ken Noe
Having completely destroyed a viable franchise in Montreal, Loria is now doing it again in Miami. A real commissioner would ban him from the game before he destroys all of baseball as we know it.
2007-12-05 09:47:51
554.   Daniel Zappala
551 I believe in shooting the messenger.
2007-12-05 09:56:25
555.   underdog
Iguchi's been mentioned with the Dodgers earlier than today, and it was as someone they were looking at to play second base (which I believe is his most natural position, no?), not third, and this was in the context especially if Jeff Kent decides not to come back. In that sense it... well, makes sense.

I don't understand talk of upgrading at third when it doesn't involve a clear blue chipper like Cabrera, otherwise some of these guys aren't any better than LaRoche/Nomar, but again, because Rolen is mentioned and this or that guy is mentioned doesn't mean anything. Rhubarb rhubarb unfounded rumor rhubarb...

2007-12-05 09:58:42
556.   underdog
Btw, I'm predicting that Santana doesn't end up anywhere in the winter, though he might be traded later. That's just my hunch and by gum I'm sticking to it! {spit}
2007-12-05 10:05:14
557.   ToyCannon
To bad about Rolen and his shoulder. Before the problems he was the perfect 3rd baseman and I'd have loved to have him.

As much as I like my Santy Glaus he should be an Angel not a Dodger.

9/13/2007 - Market Ticker...Troy Glaus (3B, TOR) will undergo nerve decompression surgery on his foot next week and will miss the rest of the season. He should be healthy by spring training in 2008.

Nerve Decompression?

2007-12-05 10:08:40
558.   Bob Timmermann
That could explain that string of unsolved murders of postal workers in Provo.
2007-12-05 10:11:39
559.   D4P
And LAT's recent absence.
2007-12-05 10:16:07
560.   KG16
553 - no argument here, apparently the Florida Marlins are just a AAAA team.
2007-12-05 10:18:52
561.   ToyCannon
One that wins a world championship every few years unlike the vast majority of actual major league baseball teams which to my knowledge do not.
2007-12-05 10:19:12
562.   blue22
553/560 - Shouldn't we wait to see how Maybin and Miller pan out before shoveling dirt on the franchise? CF was an area of great need for them, and they got the best guy out there. And Miller is a top starter prospect too. That's "quality" in return, and in their areas of need as well.
2007-12-05 10:22:36
563.   Sushirabbit
Wow. I share a Birthday with Ron Cey and Russell Martin. Cool. And I'm almost half-way between them at 1964.
2007-12-05 10:29:20
564.   LAT
557. Nerve Decompression?

Defined as what happens when your kids and co-workers finally leave you alone.

2007-12-05 10:30:10
565.   KG16
562 - if they turn out to be better than average, they'll be moved for more prospects, that's been the pattern of the franchise.

561 - is there any legitimate reason why the core of the 2003 championship team isn't still intact? Any other franchise in the Majors would have done everything possible to keep those guys together. Four years later, no one from that team is on the roster. It was cool that they won (if only because they beat the Yankees) but I see no indication that the front office is interested in sustaining a winner.

2007-12-05 10:32:18
566.   jasonungar07
They have won 2 World Series since we have won our last 2 playoff games so they are doing something right.
2007-12-05 10:33:57
567.   SG6
553 - Why? Was that a lopsided trade with Detroit? If they traded with the Dodgers, could you call it a salary dump or a great trade for some great young and cheap talent.

Has Florida been uncompetitive the past decade (only 2 WS titles)?

Maybe they have found a solution that involves not trying to outspend the Yankees and Boston. Maybe other clubs with smaller payrolls (under $200 million) need to look at their model - draft well, and trade them when they embark on free agency for more young, cheap talent.

Has any team won as many World Series the past decade not named Boston or Yankees?

If one's goal is to win the World Series, Florida has had success. If one's goal is to be competitive every year, they've fallen short. Which is the goal an MLB team should have?

Maybe the problem is with MLB.

2007-12-05 10:34:01
568.   LAT
559. I've been in and out. Lot of work travel. Its bad when the flight attendant on the LAX/OAK shuttle recognize you. But I do have enough flights to qualify for prefered boarding under the new system. (That may not be a good thing.)

But I'm doing my part. I contributed a very valuable clog post yesterday.

2007-12-05 10:38:33
569.   KG16
567 - the goal should be to win the World Series every year, not just every couple of year. And let's face it, they won in two very different ways (the first title was basically the Yankee model of buying the title, the second was through building internally).
2007-12-05 10:44:10
570.   jasonungar07
It's a good question..I mean between 1996 and 2004 who would you rather be a fan of the Braves or the Marlins?
2007-12-05 10:47:02
571.   D4P
I'd rather be a fan of the Marlins than the Braves between any given years.
2007-12-05 10:48:49
572.   Blaine
Where would I find a listing of birthdays of Dodger players?
2007-12-05 10:56:17
573.   madmac
bye, bye bonus
2007-12-05 10:57:14
574.   SG6
569 - but to win every year would necessitate a Yankee/Boston-like payroll, which is impossible for Miami, which just can't bring in the ad revenue like Yankees and Boston can.

The problem is the structure of MLB. While Florida's highest paid player will make $2 million in 2008, the owner will pocket a nice sum from the Yankees and Boston from revenue sharing, and will show a nice, healthy profit, fans be damned. (damned to the tune of 2 WS wins, and 2 WS dismantlings)

2007-12-05 10:57:28
575.   Dark Horse
569-I don't know if that's a realistic goal anymore. I mean, sure, it's what your goal should be--you shouldn't just throw in the towel on any given year ahead of time--but ultimately you have to weigh that against the long term health of the franchise. And the economics of the game have changed so steeply in the last 10 or 15 years, I think what the Marlins are doing is kinda sensible. Time will tell, but those aren't lousy players they got back by any means.
2007-12-05 10:57:59
576.   Ken Noe
562 567 Floridians have answered that question for themselves. The Marlins finished dead last in NL attendance last year, and have been 14th, 15th, or 16th in the league throughout this decade (and that includes the terminal Expos still in Canada). They were 15th of sixteen during their last World Series year, and 14th the year after. They can't get a ballpark, and soon they will be gone. So much for creating a viable alternate model.
2007-12-05 10:59:09
577.   Eric Enders
572 Using Baseball-Reference PI, you can get a list of Dodger players born in any given year. I don't know of a free source, though.
2007-12-05 11:05:04
578.   Eric Stephen
It would be nice to win the World Series every year, but that is an unreasonable goal. Being competitive each and every year should be the goal of every franchise. Being competitive gets you a shot at winning the World Series, and it is more attainable or easily controlled since there is some sample size luck involved in actually winning the World Series.

I'd rather be a fan of the Braves from 1996 to 2004 given their sustained excellence, but I'd get better seats in Florida. :)

2007-12-05 11:05:26
579.   Jon Weisman
572 - I did a search here for closest to my birthdate:

2007-12-05 11:06:03
580.   KG16
574 - you're right, there are problems with the system. I'm leaning towards a salary cap system, hard ceiling and floor.

575 - it's not sensible because tearing up a team every three years pretty much guarantees that you're never going to be able to build up fan support. Which, I would posit, is the reason why their attendance has been so bad.

2007-12-05 11:06:05
581.   MC Safety
It's funny, my ex girlfriend is ex-Tigers hitting coach Don Slaught's niece, and a friend works for his company Right View Pro. Poor Don, missed Miggy and that line up by two years.

Im in this funk where I feel we almost NEED Bedard to get anywhere close to being competitive with the way the AL is going. At first I felt we needed the big bat more which I still think we need, but it's becoming more and more apparent we need the Ace stopper. Outhitting Detroit, Boston, and NY is going to be tough, we absolutely NEED the elite pitching to neutralize those ridiculous lineups. Anyone else feel Detroit's offense is stronger than Boston's now? Granderson, Ordonez, Cabrera, Guillen with the possibility of a healthy Sheffield is a going to be very scary.

This is all sort of obvious, but does anyone else feel we almost NEED Bedard to be competitive rather than a sort of unknown in Kuroda? This assumes the rumors with us and Bedard being true btw?

2007-12-05 11:06:28
582.   regfairfield
Had Hanley Ramirez not turned into a complete monster, this new "no arbitration eligible" players strategy would be seen as a complete failure. Beinfest has brought in two above average players since going complete firesale, Hanley, and Uggla. All he's gotten from anyone else is spare parts and at best average players like Mike Jacobs and Anibal Sanchez. From trading his entire team, he got one stud, and got one more in the rule five draft. Once those guys become arbitration eligible, they're gone too.

If you can't be bothered to keep Miguel Cabrera, you obviously aren't even trying anymore. The Marlins will never be a good team.

2007-12-05 11:07:12
583.   jasonungar07
In hindsight I would rather have been a fan of the Fish. At the time, the Braves.
2007-12-05 11:10:10
584.   uclasway
Before we start calling the Marlins a AAAA team, look at their remaining pieces:

Maybin, Hanley Ramirez, and Hermida (three extremely high ceiling players), Uggla, Willingham, Jacobs with 2007 1st round pick Matt Dominguez as Cabrera's likely successor

TONS of inexpensive pitching now that they can trade for more offense:

Anibal Sanchez and Josh Johnson (who were slated to be frontline starters before injuries last year), Andrew Miller, Scott Olsen, Sergio Mitre, Ricky Nolasco, top prospects Chris Volstad, Brett Sinkbeil, Gaby Hernandez, Ryan Tucker, Sean West, and Aaron Thompson and the three pitching prospects acquired from Detroit.

I'm not saying they're going to be good now, but they have lots of talent and in today's market, young and cheap pitching is a very valuable commodity that they've stocked up on

2007-12-05 11:10:35
585.   Jon Weisman
581 - You have given me the idea for a very short new post.
2007-12-05 11:17:12
586.   Blaine
I scrolled through the list of Dodger players at Baseball Cube and found that I don't share a birthday with any Dodgers, and the closest to my birthday is James Baldwin, whom I am about two weeks older than.

Then followed Jon's link and found out that I share a birthday with Greg Blosser. Woo-hoo.

That was useless and dissapointing. Back to work.

2007-12-05 11:19:02
587.   Kevin Lewis

I know so little about the pros and cons, but it seems like a salary cap is the one way to keep the playing field level.

Am I way off on this?

2007-12-05 11:19:56
588.   Jon Weisman
Okay, it's ready.
2007-12-05 11:26:06
589.   ToyCannon
I beg to differ that they will never be good again. I guess it is how you define good. The Marlins will be a 500 team at some point and will contend for a wild card spot before the next sell off commences. I'm surprised at the overreaction to this deal by bright people. People have been claiming doom and gloom for Florida ever since they 1st sold off Sheffield and Brown.

Headed into 2007 this team was expected to contend. Reality set in when Josh Johnson and Anibal Sanchez succumbed to TJ surgery. Combined with the drunken implosion by Olsen they lost 3 of their best pitchers which just so happened to be 3 of the best young pitchers in the NL. Going into 2007 most teams would have killed for those 3 pitchers.

With Hermida/Hanley/Maybin/Willingham/Jacobs/Uggla they still have plenty of positional talent. They cashed in nicely on another Angel castoff to land their closer. The Dutch kid will be a nice pitcher and Miller will be better then the DTrain was going to be as they look to the future. I'd take Hermida over Kemp in a challenge trade right now.

2007-12-05 11:29:04
590.   GoBears
Hmm, some pitcher named Steve Chitren, who Jon must know from Stanford, was born a day after I was born here. Except that he was born in Tokyo, so basically, it was the same day.

The Japan link is neat.
The Stanford link is not neat.
The fact that a guy with a 1-season career in 1991 is getting talked about in a 2007 blog comment is priceless.

2007-12-05 11:32:59
591.   GoBears
Among guys with Dodger time, looks like Marquis Grissom is about 6 weeks older than I am. Andy Ashby and Robin Ventura are about a month younger.

So, OK, that was fun.

2007-12-05 11:34:17
592.   Jon Weisman
"Steve Chitren, who Jon must know from Stanford"

Indeed. He was our closer.

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