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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Mutual of Kuroda
2007-12-12 08:22
by Jon Weisman

About four years ago, my toddler daughter and pregnant wife went on a trip to Jamaica, where relatives had rented a house for a week. Nervous about the trip, I bought for the first time in my life one of those insurance policies at the airport, just before the plane took off. Whether it was sensible or not, it eased some anxiety.

Is that what Hiroki Kuroda is? Insurance?

Kuroda has a career ERA in Japan of 3.69 and strikes out between six and seven batters per nine innings, while walking very few. He averages about seven innings a start, though he has never had to make more than 30 starts a year.

And he might be about to get a big three-year contract from the Dodgers.

This news has been greeted with two types of reactions, the first and perhaps most important being that regardless of how well Kuroda performs, his presence now will forestall any potentially damaging offseason trades by Dodger general manager Ned Colletti. While you can't rule out the notion that Kuroda could make a younger pitching prospect or two expendable (particularly if combined with an outfielder), what exactly would Colletti be trading for?

If you can believe him, Colletti has already said that the addition of Andruw Jones to the lineup made him comfortable with the current Nomar Garciaparra/Andy LaRoche situation at third base. An acquisition of Erik Bedard from Baltimore would force both Jason Schmidt and Esteban Loaiza out of the rotation.

That leaves the bullpen. Colletti has overpaid for relief in the past, but that's been with players he grew fatigued of, like Joel Guzman and Edwin Jackson. No such fatigue exists for Clayton Kershaw, James McDonald or even Scott Elbert at this time.

So at a minimum, a Kuroda signing could be a down payment protecting the farm system for perhaps the entire 2008 season, assuming no catastrophes befall the starting lineup. It'd be a rather extravagant down payment, considering that annual salary of Kuroda and Jones probably match up to Alex Rodriguez's.

Beyond that, whether Kuroda will himself contribute to the 2008 cause remains uncertain. Despite Takashi Saito defying all naysayers to become true genius on American shores, there are multiple examples of pitchers who flounder when crossing over from Japan. Kuroda is not Hideo Nomo; he is not Daisuke Matsuzaka. Kuroda turns 33 in February with a declining strikeout rate. The absolute best-case scenario, short of the still-unexplained miracle of Saito, might be for him to become Derek Lowe – someone who succeeds as long as hitters don't hit the ball through one hole after another.

"Kuroda a very strong power pitcher with a low to mid-90s fastball and a wicked forkball," Mike Plugh of Baseball Prospectus wrote last month. (Thanks to Dodger Thoughts commenter MikeB for the link.) "In addition, he features a plus shuuto, something like a screwball, as well as an effective change. Even if he only pans out as a third or fourth starter in the majors, he will give you innings, work deep into games, and he should be fairly consistent start to start."

Grimmer scenarios would have him batted around like any number of Dodger punching bags from the past few years. When your non-miracle upside is middle-of-the-road starter, that doesn't leave a lot of margin for error.

However, I don't think it's entirely unrealistic for Kuroda to fool hitters his first time through the league, and that by the time hitters catch on to him, Kershaw, McDonald or Elbert are ready to step in. Of course, then you have the issue of benching a man with an eight-figure contract again, but I guess we'd just have to cross that bridge when we come to it.

I'm neither down nor up on this signing. I once again use my Dodger Thoughts-given right to just not be sure.

Comments (175)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-12-12 11:31:53
1.   GMac In The 909
I once again use my Dodger Thoughts-given right to just not be sure.

The only thing that's for sure is that nothing is for sure.
-- Macho Man Randy Savage

2007-12-12 11:34:47
2.   LogikReader

-- same guy

2007-12-12 11:34:53
3.   therickdaddy
Oooooooooooooooooooh yeah!
2007-12-12 11:35:23
4.   D4P
I remember reading within the past few years or so that Elizabeth died.
2007-12-12 11:36:23
5.   LogikReader
I could go back to the "boxes of Corn Flakes" argument, but I think the Kuroda signing is all right. Better to go after him than a Livan Hernandez or trade for a Bedard. With Livan, you know what you're getting.
2007-12-12 11:37:06
6.   D4P
My neck veins hurt just thinking about the Macho Man.
2007-12-12 11:39:39
7.   Eric Stephen
I think Macho Man will be named in the Mitchell Report.

Since "Big Game James" is already taken, I wouldn't mind a nickname of "Slim Jim" for James Loney, if only to be able to shout "Snap into it!!!" every time Loney does something well.

2007-12-12 11:41:09
8.   hernari
I'm personally taking the stance that if we sign Kuroda it's a positive move for the organization. It gives our pitching staff the depth Coletti seems to love, which in turn decreases the likelihood that Ned will make a trade for middle relief pitching.
However, that could change if Kuroda completely bombs and / or we lose one of our top 3 starters to injury.
2007-12-12 11:43:21
9.   Bob Timmermann
I would have gone for a headline like "Kuroda's Court" to play off the name of the short-lived Michael Constatine NBC sitcom "Sirota's Court."
2007-12-12 11:44:17
10.   GMac In The 909
6 Thinking about the Macho Man makes me want to drop an elbow on anyone in a Giants uniform.
2007-12-12 11:45:23
11.   Bob Timmermann
2007-12-12 11:45:44
12.   Jon Weisman
9 - "short-lived Michael Constatine NBC sitcom"


2007-12-12 11:46:15
13.   regfairfield
It's interesting the main topic of conversation around Miguel Cabrera was "what if he bombs" while Kuroda is "what if he's great"?
2007-12-12 11:47:02
14.   Jon Weisman
11 - He got a Golden Globe nom! How timely.
2007-12-12 11:47:08
15.   Kevin Lewis
I just don't understand Slim Jim's. How can that possibly pass as edible or even close to beef jerky?
2007-12-12 11:47:34
16.   Jon Weisman
13 - I'd say the main topic of coversation around Kuroda was "no-trade celebration."
2007-12-12 11:48:46
17.   Eric Stephen
I can't see any reason Ned would trade for a middle reliever. Right now, the back four of the bullpen is pretty much set in stone:


After that, you've got options with Kuo, Meloan (swing man?), and Brazoban to fill out the rest.

If anything, Ned would trade for a starter, trying to upgrade the Schmidt/Loaiza spots, which of course is where the fear comes in, as dealing Kemp is required to get a starter of any quality, as trading Ethier wouldn't be enough.

Signing Kuroda lessens the need for a starter, and pushes Loaiza into the swingman role in the pen. If the Dodgers tender a contract by 9pm tonight to Hendrickson, I'd guess Kuroda will not be coming to Chavez Ravine in home whites.

2007-12-12 11:50:19
18.   Eric Stephen
Slim Jims are great slathered in ketchup and mayo, accompanied by a bottle of Charles Shaw. :)
2007-12-12 11:51:07
19.   fanerman
15 Slim Jim's was my first exposure to "beef jerky." When I had other kinds, I didn't understand why it tasted so different. Anyway, I don't normally eat Slim Jim's or real beef jerky.
2007-12-12 11:52:07
20.   GMac In The 909
18 ... while listening to Radiohead's OK Computer.
2007-12-12 11:52:22
21.   regfairfield
16 True. Still, I don't think anyone's brought up the prospect of him being completely useless as a big leaguer.
2007-12-12 11:52:22
22.   underdog
Anyone know much about the guys the Orioles rec'd from Houston in the Tejada trade? I only know Scott... Seems like it could be a good deal for both teams.

I can't add much to what Jon wrote above or what I wrote before regarding Kuroda. But if it happens, color me cautiously optimistic, with a slight smile on my face.

2007-12-12 11:54:03
23.   Jon Weisman
21 - You have, and I have, and JoeyP has, among others.
2007-12-12 11:54:22
24.   silverwidow
If the Dodgers tender a contract by 9pm tonight to Hendrickson, I'd guess Kuroda will not be coming to Chavez Ravine in home whites.

Houlton & Stults can provide the same production as Hendy for minimum wage. I just refuse to believe he'll be a Dodger tomorrow.

2007-12-12 11:54:54
25.   fanerman
I think the "no-trade celebration" will have to be put on hold until the signing actually happens, because, as regfairfield mentions, apparently Kuroda has not yet made his decision.
2007-12-12 11:55:43
26.   Xeifrank
Plugging Kuroda's 2007 Japanese League numbers (without cross-continental adjustments made) into my similarity score utility and comparing with other Dodger starters and possible starters. Kuroda is the most similiar (based on HR,K,BB rate) to:
1. D.Lowe
2. C.Billingsley
3. E.Loaiza
4. Penny
5. Schmidt
6. Stults
7. Guo
8. Houlton

I used 2008 ZIPS projections for data entry, and this study does not take age/injury into account, only comparing current stats. The full study is at DodgerSims.
vr, Xei

2007-12-12 11:55:55
27.   fanerman
Everybody seems sure Kuroda won't be Tomdrickson level. Is that safe to assume?
2007-12-12 11:56:39
28.   ToyCannon
Since integration 1798 seasons were found when a pitcher had a K/9 rate less then 6 and posted an ERA+ over 100.

Since integration 1023 seasons were found when a pitcher had a K/rate greater then 6.1 and posted an ERA+ over 100.

2007-12-12 11:56:45
29.   regfairfield
23 You're right, I'll drop it.
2007-12-12 11:58:08
30.   Jon Weisman
27 - See 23.
2007-12-12 11:58:46
31.   Eric Stephen
LHP Troy Patton was the Astros' #3 rated prospect by Baseball America, and he had the most control of all the prospects according to BA. He was projected as the Astros #4 starter in 2011 (behind Oswalt, Matt Albers, & Felipe Paulino)

3B Mike Costanzo was #6, and best power hitter and best infield arm. He was slated by BA to be the Astros' starting 3B in 2011.

I seem to remember Dennis Sarfate showing up in previous BA Prospect books, but they are at home and I can't look them up right now.

2007-12-12 12:00:16
32.   D4P
Not sure what your point is, but are there are more seasons where pitchers had K/9 rates less than 6 than seasons where pitchers had K/9 rates more than 6...?
2007-12-12 12:02:08
33.   hernari
The L.A. Times poll has now reached 69% for the "Ethier in left, Jones in center, Kemp in right" outfield configuration. Is 70% too much to ask?
2007-12-12 12:09:28
34.   ToyCannon
The key is ERA+. There have been more seasons with ERA+ > 100 for control pitchers then for those who miss bats.
2007-12-12 12:10:30
35.   fanerman
30 Ah. Thanks.
28 Interesting.
2007-12-12 12:11:02
36.   ToyCannon
How did Igawa 2006 stats translate over?
It would seem the biggest worry here is that Igawa bombed and that Kuroda might do the same. Igawa like Ishi had huge control problems. I remember quite a big sentiment on DT that we should sign Igawa last winter. I could be wrong but I thought Nate really wanted us to sign him.
2007-12-12 12:11:19
37.   Eric Stephen
I think he was asking how many total seasons of each pitcher type there have been. i.e. is the first group 1798 out of 8000, and the second group 1023 out of 3500?
2007-12-12 12:12:43
38.   D4P
Yes, but in which type of season is ERA+ more likely to be over 100:

1. K/9 less than 6
2. K/9 more than 6

That's a different question from what you're (implicitly) answering.

2007-12-12 12:13:20
39.   regfairfield
Seasons with K/9>=6.1: 9,094
Seasons with K/9<=6: 23,473

That is if TC didn't set a minimum.

2007-12-12 12:14:49
40.   ToyCannon
Brad Penny had by far his best season ever last year, and he did with his worse K/9 rate.
2007-12-12 12:15:20
41.   ToyCannon
My minimum was 162 innings pitched.
2007-12-12 12:16:37
42.   D4P
So, roughly 7.6% of seasons with K/9 6 do so.
2007-12-12 12:17:25
43.   ToyCannon
My point isn't that having a K/9 rate less then 6 is better then being able to miss bats. My points is you can be a successful pitcher either way and to just discount somone out of hand because they don't have a K/9 rate over 6 seems to easy. Command has to be taken into account and the ability to control the home run.
2007-12-12 12:17:29
44.   D4P
Woah, that was weird. I typed an entire post, but only a small portion of it posted.
2007-12-12 12:17:31
45.   MikeB
Jon - I'm very happy and humbled to have contributed something useful to DT. Thanks to you and all your commenters for providing such a wonderful forum of discussion about Dodgers baseball, music, movies, condiments and cheap wine.
2007-12-12 12:18:48
46.   D4P
Do I understand correctly that your measure of "command" increases as the K/9 rate decreases? In other words, for you, pitchers who don't strike people out are "command" pitchers, and strikeout pitchers have less command?
2007-12-12 12:20:04
47.   Eric Stephen
So we have:

K/9 of 6 or less
1789 of 2921, 61.2% with an ERA+ of 100 or more

K/9 of 6.1 or more
1023 of 1434, 71.3% with an ERA+ of 100 or more

2007-12-12 12:20:47
48.   regfairfield
41 With that in mind:

=6.1: 1,495

Percentage wise:
=6.1: 68.4%

2007-12-12 12:22:31
49.   regfairfield
Same thing happened to me, the greater and less than signs are treated as tags and taken out.

The other part was: less than 6: 5,825, or 30.8%

2007-12-12 12:24:55
50.   Eric Stephen
If we increase the threshold to a 120 ERA+, we have:

K/9 of 6 or less
650 of 2921, 22.3%

K/9 of 6.1 or more
581 of 1434, 40.5%

That said, I understand your point in 43 , TC.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-12-12 12:25:37
51.   JoeyP
Like regairfield mentioned in another thread:

Would their still be the "no bad trade" excitement if the Dodgers signed Jeff Weaver to a 3/36 contract instead?

2007-12-12 12:27:42
52.   regfairfield
43 Of course, but I also think that you have to dominate a lower level to be successful at an upper level. I weigh strikeouts far more heavily for someone coming up to the bigs than for someone who's already there. People with otherworldly control or the ability to keep the ball in the park are exceptions, but Kuroda isn't that guy.

47 Where'd you get those numbers from?

2007-12-12 12:28:00
53.   Eric Stephen
2004 Jeff Weaver? Sure. (I know, his 2005-2007 seasons have not been good)
2007-12-12 12:28:09
54.   regfairfield
51 2004 Jeff Weaver, important difference.
2007-12-12 12:28:31
55.   hernari
51 Jeff Weaver sucks, Kuroda hasn't been proven to suck.
2007-12-12 12:28:44
56.   Kevin Lewis

At least the Shaw would burn my taste buds and make it all disappear, until I woke up in the middle of the night with the runs.

2007-12-12 12:30:20
57.   Eric Stephen
I used the play index on Parameters were 1947 to 2007, 162 minimum IP, K/9 under 6 (and 6.1+)
2007-12-12 12:30:46
58.   madmac
56 uh, thanks for that
2007-12-12 12:31:42
59.   regfairfield
57 Huh, how'd I find almost twice as many seasons as you then?
2007-12-12 12:32:04
60.   underdog
This was Rotoworld's take on Andruw Jones, after he officially signed contract:
>>Dodgers signed outfielder Andruw Jones, who had been with the Braves, to a two-year, $36.2 million contract.
The extra $200,000 Jones is earning just so that he can say he makes more than Torii Hunter reportedly will be donated to a Dodgers' charity. Jones figures hit to hit fourth or fifth in a Dodgers' lineup that will still include Juan Pierre. Once again, it looks like the better hitters might be found at the bottom of the order. James Loney, Matt Kemp and Andy LaRoche, if he wins a job, could bat sixth, seventh and eighth, respectively.<<
2007-12-12 12:32:24
61.   MC Safety
56 I get bad heartburn from too much wine.
2007-12-12 12:40:18
62.   JoeyP
I dont mean to belabor this point, but also in the grand scheme of the argument that "depth" is more valued than talent (apparently to Ned Colletti it is):

How many teams at the end of the year are saying "We were just a #4 starter away from being in the playoffs"?

I think these moves are job security for Ned. If he stacks the roster with players that have higher floors (Kuroda, Loaiza), than some of the high risk youngsters that could flame out---he'll always be insured of winning around 80-85 games and keeping his job. However, that still doesnt make the Dodgers any better. It may prevent them from being a bad team, but it does nothing to make them a good team--which is the goal right?

Is "Kuroda" Japanese for Kevin Tapani?

2007-12-12 12:41:13
63.   Eric Stephen
I think it's more likely Loney or Kemp will bat 3rd, with Martin 6th. Assuming of course, JP is #2.
2007-12-12 12:42:47
64.   ToyCannon
No, I would never suggest such a thing. I'm sure that only pitchers with excellent command,huge GB tendancies, or fly ball tendancies in pitching parks can get away with it.
I didn't even mean to suggest that Kuroda is such a pitcher.
I only ran the numbers because I became curious from the previous thread when Jon said what he said about K rates and successful pitchers.
2007-12-12 12:42:57
65.   Jon Weisman
60 - I guess according to their theory, Martin would bat third or fifth. In any case, I expect Loney will be high in the order.
2007-12-12 12:42:58
66.   regfairfield
Also very important is that there's way more strikeouts now then there used to be.

In 1953, the league K/9 was 4.35. This year it was 6.16. Notice that most of the names that come up are from before 1970.

2007-12-12 12:43:45
67.   paranoidandroid
20 Blasphemy!
2007-12-12 12:44:02
68.   Jon Weisman
62 - How many teams at the end of the year are saying "We were just a #4 starter away from being in the playoffs"?

The 2007 Dodgers?

I'm half-serious, half-kidding.

2007-12-12 12:45:19
69.   ToyCannon
How can depth be overrated when you look at the rotations that were in place in Sept throughout baseball compared to what they started with in April?
2007-12-12 12:49:09
70.   ToyCannon
What is the K/9 rate in Japan compared to the US?
2007-12-12 12:49:14
71.   Eric Stephen
If we arbitrarily change the dates to 1990 to 2007 (more strikeouts), the numbers change:

K/9 of 6 or less
385 of 701, 54.9% with an ERA+ of 100 or more

K/9 of 6.1 or more
548 of 712, 77.0% with an ERA+ of 100 or more

2007-12-12 12:49:34
72.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Considering the injury risk that plagues all pitchers, and the scarcity of adequate innings-eaters, I find the idea that depth is worthless when it comes to pitching curious.


2007-12-12 12:50:01
73.   katysdad
THe Giants just announced the signing of Aaron Rowand to a five-year deal.
2007-12-12 12:50:09
74.   bigcpa has video of the Jones press conf although I can't find it.
2007-12-12 12:51:23
75.   katysdad
I should add that the report of Rowand's signing came from Baseball Digest Daily.
2007-12-12 12:51:50
76.   Eric Stephen
I was going to say, "wait, but he's under 30", but in fact Rowand turned 30 on Aug 29.
2007-12-12 12:52:15
77.   Dark Horse
68, 69-That's my feeling. Having a back end of the rotation starter who's better than Hendrickson, Tomko, Stults, Houlton, Odalis--who isn't effectively a guaranteed loss everytime he takes the mound--improves the club. Sure it does. Who knows if Kuroda is better than those guys, but I suspect he is. And if--if--he is, then it's a darn sight better than weakening our office to obtain a Haren or a Bedard, who mightn't be so-much-better-than-the-alternatives that it would justify what we'd have to give up to get them.
2007-12-12 12:52:42
78.   natepurcell

They could have had Pierre for 4!

2007-12-12 12:52:42
79.   the2pin
Do we know the terms? Three years? How much? He's, what, 33 years old?

Knowing very little about the guy, I'm mildly in favor of the trade.

If nothing else this deal: (a) provides insurance and hopefully quality innings; (b) allows Schmidt to face mediocre pitchers as the #5; (c)helps create a lucrative "pipeline" of baseball talent from Japan and merchandise/fan interest back to Japan.

As we've seen recently from the Red Sox and Yankees, creating revenue streams is becoming extremely important. :)

2007-12-12 12:53:15
80.   Jon Weisman
73 - Another source:

Let the Andruw-Aaron showdowns begin!

2007-12-12 12:53:29
81.   Eric Stephen
73 ,75
More info/confirmation here:

2007-12-12 12:53:36
82.   regfairfield
73 This is the best off season ever.

LF Roberts
RF Winn
CF Rowand
2B Durham
1B Aurillia
C Molina
SS Vizquel
3B No idea, Fransden? Denker?

That could be worse than the 2003 Dodgers.

70 No idea.

2007-12-12 12:54:00
83.   D4P
From Rotoworld:

The Giants were lucky last year when they missed out on Gary Matthews Jr. and Juan Pierre despite competitive offers. Still, no one really expected Brian Sabean to learn his lesson, did they?

2007-12-12 12:54:16
84.   silverwidow
With Rowand headed to SF, Pierre is the White Sox's only option in center. Go for it, Ned!
2007-12-12 12:54:48
85.   bigcpa
OK so the White Sox are down to Cameron, Patterson and Lofton. Make the call, Ned.
2007-12-12 12:54:54
86.   D4P
And yet, Sabean got a contract extension.


2007-12-12 12:55:05
87.   katysdad
I suppose the White Sox, if indeed they are looking to upgrade in centerfield, shall become more interested in Pierre.
2007-12-12 12:55:29
88.   regfairfield
70 I would guess a bit less, since strikeout rate tends to get a slight bump when coming over here, but again, no confirmation.
2007-12-12 12:55:47
89.   natepurcell

Nate She4tiueholtz is pretty good.

2007-12-12 12:56:55
90.   ToyCannon
Given that everyone's rotation is out of kilter after the 1st week, it is doubtful that Schmidt will face weaker pitchers because he's slotted as our number 5. By the time a playoff series arrives if he's still our number 5 he won't even be pitching.

Ha Ha, this year the Giants got the guy we least wanted to see in a Dodger uniform.
Thank You A Jones for taking a two year deal.

2007-12-12 12:57:09
91.   regfairfield
89 Ah, true. I need to do something besides look at 40 mans when I do these lineups.
2007-12-12 12:57:17
92.   old dodger fan
When we look back on this 2 years from now, assuming we do sign Kuroda, who thinks we will be better off with him or with Randy Wolf? There are so many unknowns (how Kuroda's ability in Japan will translate to the US; Wolf's health) right now all we can do is guess. If all of us were in Ned's shoes I wonder how many of us would have chosen Wolf?
2007-12-12 12:57:35
93.   GMac In The 909
67 I kid, I kid. OK Computer is rockin' my iPod. I might even listen to the album after my lunch.

Oh, and the video for your namesake is one of my favorites.

2007-12-12 12:57:51
94.   Eric Stephen
79 helps create a lucrative "pipeline" of baseball talent from Japan and merchandise/fan interest back to Japan

The Red Sox didn't get much of an impact thus far in signing Dice-K.

2007-12-12 12:58:10
95.   underdog
I guess this means Pierre would be more appealing to the Whi... D'oh!
2007-12-12 12:59:02
96.   the2pin
I'm not going to argue that depth isn't important -- it assuredly is important.

But playoff series are so often characterized by dominant individual performances. There's no denying that a singularly excellent pitcher like Johan Santana or Josh Beckett pays tremendous dividens in the post-season.

But we're the Dodgers, and I have no problem taking baby steps.

As far as the regular season is concerned, I believe this deal solidifies our hold on a very good NL-West division next year.

2007-12-12 12:59:43
97.   underdog
62 Besides the fact that I think having a solid #4 start is underrated (just look at the '07 Dodgers), why do you assume Kuroda doesn't have talent? From what I've seen, he actually does have talent and could be fairly solid. I mean, why is the glass half-empty (or half-untalented)?
2007-12-12 12:59:47
98.   trainwreck
I would have, but I always wanted to re-sign Wolf.
2007-12-12 12:59:51
99.   ToyCannon
My only fear about such a deal is that if Sabean can learn nothing from past mistakes, it is doubtfull Ned can.
And Aaron Rowand proves once again that for most athletes it is all about the benjamins. I hope he enjoys playing CF for the worse team in baseball for the next 5 years.
2007-12-12 13:00:27
100.   jasonungar07
92 Since Wolf has not managed to throw a full season since 2003..i'll take my chances on the other guy, given the other injury concerns of Schmidt and to a smaller extent, Loazia.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-12-12 13:00:51
101.   the2pin
94 Thanks for the very interesting link. Still, if you consider signing Kuroda a good thing, I have to think having Saito around helped facilitate the process. Again, thanks for the link.

Three cheers for the Giants signing Rowand! This is a good day.

2007-12-12 13:01:57
102.   ToyCannon
Wolf had his shot, if it was me I'd have signed Lieber over Kuroda.
2007-12-12 13:05:08
103.   Eric Stephen
The Giants managed an 89 OPS+ last season with Bonds. (D-Backs also were at 89; White Sox 87 & Royals 85)

I'd love to see to what depths the 2008 Giants' offense can sink.

2007-12-12 13:07:27
104.   fanerman
99 Ned getting rid of Pierre would go a long way for me to believe that he can learn something. Ned at least has Kim and Logan to listen to. Sabean for a long time had... Ned.
2007-12-12 13:07:56
105.   Eric Stephen
Also, Giants will lose their #5 pick in the 2nd round by signing Type A Rowand. With all the compensatory picks, that pick might be in the 55-60 range overall.
2007-12-12 13:08:43
106.   silverwidow
2008 Giants: 58-104
2007-12-12 13:08:45
107.   D4P
Ned getting rid of Pierre would go a long way for me to believe that he can learn something

What could we say Ned had learned if he got rid of Pierre after one season, in which Pierre did essentially what Ned expected him to?

2007-12-12 13:09:46
108.   Eric Stephen
Their pitching is too good for that bad of a record.

59-103 is more appropriate. :)

2007-12-12 13:11:03
109.   Eric Stephen
I guess the Rowand signing ends any Rios or Matsui trade speculation for the Giants.
2007-12-12 13:11:57
110.   natepurcell
whens the Druw pressy?
2007-12-12 13:13:16
111.   ToyCannon
2007-12-12 13:14:36
112.   old dodger fan
107 He learned that the way to evaluate "getting on base" is on-base %.
2007-12-12 13:15:13
113.   natepurcell
Boras on
2007-12-12 13:15:24
114.   bigcpa
110 Boras is on the mlb video feed at the moment.
2007-12-12 13:15:56
115.   natepurcell
just said Druw met with McCourt and Torre to make sure that the young core of Loney, Kemp, Martin, Abreu, Ethier and etc would remain intact and that they would add to it.
2007-12-12 13:16:00
116.   Andrew Shimmin
I don't mind having a sold back of the rotation. I just mind when Tomko and Hendrickson get paid real money to do what Houlton and Stults, and the nameless, faceless masses of pitchers who aren't good could do just about as well for nothing. Would the team have been worse if Stults and Houlton divided up the thirty Tomko/Hendrickson starts? It's likely it would have been better if Billingsley had gotten to dip his beak in that pool starting in April, instead of the end of June.

I'm not convinced that Kuroda (or Loiza, for that matter) is garbage, so I'm relatively happy about the rumors he's coming to L.A. I just don't want to see another round of Colletti's scavenger hunt when Loiza isn't Lima or Sele. Everybody ends up using bad pitchers; there are too many teams for the good ones to go around. But not everybody pays them, or gives away useful players for them.

2007-12-12 13:17:07
117.   Ken Noe
99 But I think maybe he has learned. Two years for Jones, the kids still in the fold. Something is happening under that toupe. Now he is sure to remain obsessed with never having enough pitching. But you said it better than I can earlier today. Lowe is in the last year of his contract, Loaiza may be on his last legs, and Schmidt, who knows. A 2009 rotation of Penny, Bills, Kershaw, some other young stud out of the system, and Kuboda if he works out looks pretty darned good to me. Especially with Ethier and Kemp in the outfield, and Saito still in the pen.
2007-12-12 13:20:18
118.   D4P
I hope that signing Rowand doesn't mean the Giants are out of the running for LuGo.
2007-12-12 13:21:44
119.   bigcpa
115 What's with the obnoxiously nasal sportscenter reject hosting that show?
2007-12-12 13:21:51
120.   KG16
ESPN is reporting that the Padres are talking of trading for Jason Bay, the package may include Micheal Barnett.

Good or bad for the Bums?

2007-12-12 13:22:21
121.   natepurcell
I wouldn't mind doing that job.
2007-12-12 13:22:50
122.   natepurcell

Depends on if they have to give up Chase Headley and others or not.

2007-12-12 13:23:11
123.   Eric Stephen
I'd like to reserve LuGo to foist upon the Padres.
2007-12-12 13:24:08
124.   KG16
122 - that's one of the names mentioned. They're also talking of getting Matt Morris, if it is the Matt Morris I am thinking of, I can't see how that is bad for the Dodgers.
2007-12-12 13:24:17
125.   Eric Stephen
I'm only seeing this Cal Ripken video on It's really frustrating.
2007-12-12 13:25:10
126.   scareduck
120 - Michael Barnett? You mean, Michael Barrett?
2007-12-12 13:26:17
127.   bhsportsguy
Is there another Wilson Alvarez in this group?

2007-12-12 13:26:18
128.   regfairfield
122 If it means that the Padres have to give up less talent, it's bad for us.

Morris isn't a terrible number five, especially in that park.

2007-12-12 13:26:42
129.   Ken Noe
115 The nickname "Druw" scares me. Makes me think of this guy who plays part-time for the BoSox.
2007-12-12 13:28:14
130.   Eric Stephen
Mike Koplove was almost acquired by the Dodgers in both July 2004 and later that offseason, both deals involving Randy Johnson. I always liked his funky delivery.
2007-12-12 13:28:21
131.   fanerman
107 Wouldn't it say that he learned more than if Pierre performed worse than he expected? i.e., Last year I thought players like Pierre were good. Now I know that they are not.

If Pierre performed worse, wouldn't it suggest that it was his under-performance Ned was frustrated with and not his skill set in general?

2007-12-12 13:32:01
132.   natepurcell

I agree, Koplove is the most interesting name.

2007-12-12 13:33:59
133.   silverwidow
130 Billingsley would be dominating us as a member of the D-Backs if that happened. Scary.
2007-12-12 13:34:04
134.   bhsportsguy
128 Small sample size but perhaps he can do better as he gets used to the ballpark.

PETCO Park 6 GS; 3-2; 31.1 IP; 35 hits; 19 ER; 4 HR; 14 K; 14 BB; 5.46 ERA; 1.56 whip; .282 BAA

But remember, this is what the Padres did against him.

2007-12-12 13:34:08
135.   Bob Timmermann
Depending upon how you define "interesting", I like the name Asadoorian.

I also like the name Falkenborg, but only if it is combined with another noun. Like the Falkenborg Solution or the Falkenborg Paradox.

2007-12-12 13:34:09
136.   scareduck
99 - completely disagree. Until proven otherwise, Hunter is proof (i.e., he acknowledged Pierre was a mistake).
2007-12-12 13:34:09
137.   Andrew Shimmin
I like Ardoin. He can't hit at all, but he's great fun to watch catch. I remember when John-Ford Griffin was a hot prospect; did he get hurt?
2007-12-12 13:35:28
138.   natepurcell

Lets not think about that.

2007-12-12 13:37:04
139.   D4P
Or the Millenium Falkenborg.
2007-12-12 13:41:07
140.   bhsportsguy
128 And really, is he that much better than this guy.

2007 - PETCO Park 5 GS; 1-1; IP 25.1; 24 hits; 15 ER; 1 HR; 16 K; 19 BB; 5.33 ERA; 1.58 whip: .242 BAA

Morris only makes 25+ times more money a year.

2007-12-12 13:43:41
141.   Dark Horse
136-You do mean Jones (not Hunter), don't you, Rob?

I think Colletti came remarkably close to acknowledging Pierre was a mistake outright, with that "at times I've been too aggressive" statement a few days ago.

2007-12-12 13:44:08
142.   silverwidow
The Rays are close to signing Cliff Floyd.

We can forget about sending Ethier over there now.

2007-12-12 13:45:32
143.   ToyCannon
Old friends Tanyon Sturtze and Falkenberg coming back for another go round. Torre is familiar with Sturtz which is dangerous.
Some intriguing stories among the 11 men. Someone should do a reality series on these guys but it would not have much pop at the end if none of them make the team which is likely.
2007-12-12 13:45:57
144.   Marty
Reaction to the Rowand deal over at McCovey Chronicles:


Take THAT, Ned Colletti!

2007-12-12 13:46:36
145.   natepurcell

I didn't really want to think about that one either.

2007-12-12 13:49:16
146.   scareduck
141 - of course, my mistake. Andruw Jones.
2007-12-12 13:52:34
147.   fanerman
144 If they want another CF, they can take Juan Pierre.
2007-12-12 13:54:04
148.   Andrew Shimmin
McCovey Chronicles post (it's good):

2007-12-12 13:54:59
149.   scareduck
139 - Star Wars as told by the Swedish Chef! Borg, borg, borg!
2007-12-12 13:55:16
150.   Jacob L
No, no, no. Tanyon Sturtze is retired. I remember doing a lengthy "Usual Suspects" post/comedy bit when he announced it, trading on the minimal similarity between his name and Kaiser Soze. The Dodgers should have announced they were signing un-known aging relief pitcher Verbal Kint.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-12-12 13:56:20
151.   Eric Stephen
The 2005 Dodgers had quite a few CF as well. I hope the Giants have similar success.
2007-12-12 13:57:46
152.   Jacob L
I remember round about 19856-86, saying the Dodgers were fielding Mike Scioscia and 7 right fielders.
2007-12-12 13:57:49
153.   silverwidow
Rowand got 5/60
2007-12-12 13:59:27
154.   Eric Stephen
RIP Ike Turner.
2007-12-12 14:01:25
155.   oklahomadodger
luke scott (orioles & astros trade) is a former oklahoma state cowboy, i watched him play in stillwater a lot. him and matt holliday were on the same team and a lot of people were higher on scott. the O's might have gotten a good one.
2007-12-12 14:04:05
156.   JoeyP
Aaron Rowand is like the CF version of Adrian Beltre.
2007-12-12 14:05:22
157.   D4P
I will laugh if Rowand shows up in Mitchell's report, a day after signing with the Giants.
2007-12-12 14:05:31
158.   Eric Stephen
I hope Rowand got better medical care during & after his out of country emergency appendectomy! :)
2007-12-12 14:06:19
159.   natepurcell
Am I the only person that doesn't really care that much about the Mitchell Report?
2007-12-12 14:06:24
160.   bigcpa
156 Or how about Shea Hillenbrand?
2007-12-12 14:07:01
161.   Jacob L
157 Not implying anything at all, but will you laugh if Andruw's in it?
2007-12-12 14:07:01
162.   LogikReader
Does Aaron Rowand whiff at pitches low and away too?
2007-12-12 14:07:41
163.   Eric Stephen
I'm in that category as well. My only care is: will any Dodgers get suspended. Outside of that, I'm numb to it all.
2007-12-12 14:07:51
164.   Sac Town Dodger Fan
5yr/60 mil? Hey at least they got younger. Sabean is losing his mind
2007-12-12 14:09:23
165.   LogikReader

Nah, I'm also a non-carer.

The Mitchell Report, like D4P says, its a good laugh, but nothing real will come from it. I'm guessing a 15 game suspension... that'll show 'em!

2007-12-12 14:09:25
166.   D4P

And to Nate's point, the Mitchell Report isn't really gonna mean all that much. Players will keep making money, as will owners. And since steroid use was so pervasive, the blame and guilt will be spread wide enough that no single player will have to shoulder a big enough chunk of it to really hurt them in any meaningful (i.e. financial) way.

2007-12-12 14:09:43
167.   Andrew Shimmin
The world is probably a better place without him, but Ike Turner's music (before Tina and until she left) is good. Very good.
2007-12-12 14:11:14
168.   LogikReader

I wrote 165 before 166 but it could have complimented 166 after the fact too :)

2007-12-12 14:11:34
169.   Humma Kavula
My favorite McCovey Chronicles comment...

Official Song of the 2008 Giants: John Fogerty's "Centerfield" (to be played every half-inning at the Big Phone).

2007-12-12 14:13:49
170.   Bob Timmermann
But on the other hand, Jessica Alba is expecting.
2007-12-12 14:14:24
171.   Jacob L
I think the biggest laugh of all would be if a certain diminutive, speedy CFer were on the list, implying he needs the juice to slap loopers over the shortstop's head.

Nevermind, that's just mean.

2007-12-12 14:15:13
172.   LogikReader

Bob, I don't follow.

2007-12-12 14:16:24
173.   Bob Timmermann
One going out, one coming in.
2007-12-12 14:18:13
174.   Andrew Shimmin
170- In other news, 500,000 men lined up at courtrooms across the country to have their names legally changed to "Cash."

"I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner." Cash Rippington said. "Best decision of my entire life. Bar none." added Cash Colletti.

2007-12-12 14:18:28
175.   Jon Weisman
New post up top...

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