Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Google Search
Dodger Thoughts

02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

2007-12-14 08:25
by Jon Weisman

The irresponsible publication Thursday morning of names falsely linked to the Mitchell Report, in my view, is directly connected to the casual, all-in-good-fun passing along of rumors during the Hot Stove League.

A media culture that sets a standard of "someone else said it, so it doesn't matter if it's true" when the stakes are low is primed to have some of its members make the same mistake when the stakes are high. And so it went Thursday.

Dan Caesar of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch writes about it this morning, although you almost get the sense that he thinks it's only a TV-radio problem. Instead, it's pervasive.

Cheating the truth to grow your audience is wrong. (And it's not as if I haven't ever made the mistake.)

* * *

Mark Whicker of the Register takes the unpopular view regarding the Mitchell Report. I think it's worth a read, even if you don't agree.

* * *

Back to your regularly unscheduled Dodger news soon, I hope ...

Comments (167)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-12-14 08:44:05
1.   bhsportsguy
I agree.
2007-12-14 08:49:32
2.   Andrew Shimmin
And it's time for WNBC to burn its sources, so everybody knows where they got it.
2007-12-14 08:51:12
3.   Eric Stephen
Another annoyance of the Mitchell Report is that when searching for hot stove news (actual news, mind you!) I have to use a machete to wade through the jungle of steroid news on local paper sites,, etc
2007-12-14 08:51:44
4.   Gilberto Reyes
Someone at WNBC or CNBC owes a lot of apologies to Nomar, Pujols, Varitek, etc. For NBC to post that list without verifying the source was careless and negligent.
2007-12-14 08:52:52
5.   Sushirabbit
I've nearly bitten my tongue in half. Can we talk about something pleasant, like Juan Pierre?
2007-12-14 08:53:17
6.   Gilberto Reyes
4 I am in total agreement. Make the sources accountable!
2007-12-14 08:54:48
7.   Eric Stephen
Now that's an obscure ex-Dodger. Nice screen name. If that's your real name, I apologize for trivializing it.
2007-12-14 08:57:45
8.   Jon Weisman
7 - German Rivera is still available.

Update to this post above.

2007-12-14 08:57:53
9.   Sagehen
5 At least he who must not be named was not on the list.
2007-12-14 08:58:40
10.   Marty
I'm way too morally compromised to pass judgment on any of this. But as an observer of the Human Comedy this chapter has certainly been interesting.
2007-12-14 09:01:13
11.   Bob Timmermann
I can't say the St. Louis newspapers (or really newspaper) and the TV and radio stations there have the greatest relationship.
2007-12-14 09:04:06
12.   Jon Weisman
11 - But you could say someone else said it :)
2007-12-14 09:06:53
13.   Bob Timmermann
OK, Dan Caesar said it.
2007-12-14 09:09:45
14.   bhsportsguy
11 Are they still bitter (they being the public) about the Cardinals' switching radio stations?
2007-12-14 09:10:02
15.   Marty
The only connection I have in any of this is Hundley. His daughter and a friend of mines daughter hung out together and I would occasionally see Hundley pick her up at my friend's house. He didn't leave any syringes laying around but he did leave a lot of cigarette butts.
2007-12-14 09:11:16
16.   Andrew Shimmin
5- I was thinking of redoubling my "maybe HGH isn't really so bad" efforts; sound good? I've got a whole cortisone spiel worked out, which is, I think, pretty killer. . .
2007-12-14 09:12:27
17.   Bob Timmermann
It's official.

The Mitchell Report has fallen into the hands of library catalogers:

2007-12-14 09:14:37
18.   jasonungar07
10 lol
2007-12-14 09:20:41
19.   LogikReader
Am I wrong to not be taking this seriously?

There's probably nothing to worry about: by Monday night we'll be talking about Juan Pierre just like the old days.

2007-12-14 09:25:07
20.   Bob Timmermann
In other news, UCLA is going to interview Jim Harbaugh's older brother, John, for its football coach position.
2007-12-14 09:26:53
21.   D4P
Is the father of the two brothers named Zebedee by any chance...?
2007-12-14 09:28:20
22.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
What, no mention of Plaschke turning on his former BFF, Lo Duca?
2007-12-14 09:29:14
23.   Andrew Shimmin
22- It was in the last thread.
2007-12-14 09:30:20
24.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
2007-12-14 09:31:47
25.   MC Safety
Sorry for implicating Nomah in the last thread, I was clearly going off the first list. Back to the drawing board I guess. Im trying Andy!
2007-12-14 09:31:47
26.   bhsportsguy
20 Along with Rick "Its only an office pool" Neuheisel and Norm Chow. Reportedly they are being interviewed today (Rick) and tomorrow (Norm).
2007-12-14 09:34:26
27.   Bob Timmermann
I will use you as my guide to judge the feelings of the UCLA messageboards.

My initial guess is:
They hate all the candidates.

2007-12-14 09:35:47
28.   jasonungar07
Has Kuroda's plane landed yet? Jeeze it's been a really long flight..

No this is in the Rocky Mountain News (Tracy Ringolsby)


* Japanese right-hander Hiroki Kuroda canceled a scheduled visit to the United States because he decided to sign with the Dodgers. He also was being pursued by Seattle, Arizona and Kansas City. Dodgers closer Takashi Saito is believed to have helped sway Kuroda to Los Angeles.

2007-12-14 09:36:49
29.   Benaiah
22 - "The sour history that was Paul Depodesta's reign maybe have to be rewritten."

I hate Bill Plaschke. Sour history? Are you freaking kidding me?

2007-12-14 09:39:21
30.   Disabled List
I saw the WNBC list off of a link that appeared in the DT thread yesterday. As I was looking at it, I got a phone call from a friend of mine saying, "I heard Clemens is on the list!" I responded by saying I had some sort of leaked list right in front of me, and I proceeded to rattle off the names: Pujols, Nomar, Kile, Varitek, etc.

As I was reading off some of the names, a number of people in my office who had overheard me immediately gathered around my desk. In less than 60 seconds, more than a dozen people were standing nearby, excitedly chattering about the names on my computer. There was a warning on the WNBC site that said MLB sources were disputing some of the names on the list, and to my credit, I mentioned that. But nobody was really paying attention to that part. So, thanks to me, a lot of the people in my office, as well as the friend who called me, went most of the day thinking that Albert Pujols (among others) was officially a steroids cheat.

I'm a little bit embarrassed and upset about this. I spread defamatory lies about people simply because, well, I'm a gossip, and because WNBC gave me completely fabricated and uncorroborated information. I'm angry at myself, and I'm angry at WNBC.

WNBC has a one paragraph retraction and apology up on their website, but that's not good enough. Journalists only have an obligation to protect their sources so long as their sources are telling the truth. That list was given to WNBC either by a complete charlatan, or somebody with an axe to grind. Either way, that person is not deserving of WNBC's protection, and should be revealed as a public service, under the auspice of exposing purveyors of misinformation. This would give WNBC a chance to at least fix their lousy work with some good journalism. I'm not gonna hold my breath, though.

Hot stove rumors can be fun and engaging. Rumors like this, on the other hand, are damaging and hurtful. The rush to be first was more important than the obligation to be right. I'm just as guilty as WNBC in this regard, but then again, I don't hold the public trust of a news gathering organization.

This whole episode has left me feeling pretty lousy today. I'm going to turn this post into a letter and send it to WNBC. Hopefully that will make me feel better, but I doubt it.

2007-12-14 09:41:06
31.   bhsportsguy
27 Actually, they don't hate everyone. Some are pulling for the Norm Chow/Walker combo, others, Rick, still many are wondering why Chris Peterson won't leave Boise and if Leach is just too crazy to consider.

Mostly its still hopeful since KD is gone.

2007-12-14 09:41:14
32.   Lexinthedena
I know we're not suppose to talk politics here, and it's a good rule...but since we are making parallels, the media has set precident with passing along rumors, and the stakes have been much higher. I believe that there is as much a connection with the reporting of the WMD's etc. as there is with the Hot Stove irreverence.
2007-12-14 09:42:36
33.   Kayaker7
As one who has openly suspected Gagne of steroid use, I feel a bit vindicated...though it doesn't make me feel too good that a Dodger player's accomplishments have become a sham. As for Pujols...yeah he was not named in the report, but I'm sure there are many who used who were not named. Many professional bodybuilders in the Southern California drive to Tijuana to purchase drugs. No paper trail.

I still suspect him. That's just me. You guys can rightly condemn me for speculating without solid evidence...

As for Lo Duca, I recall wondering about him, when he suddenly had that power surge...but I didn't think the transformation was quite as dramatic as Gagne's. Plus, I wanted to believe the feel-good story...

2007-12-14 09:43:20
34.   capdodger
16 Cotisone is for old people, not athletes.
2007-12-14 09:43:24
35.   Wilbert Robinson
32 I believe that there is as much a connection with the reporting of the WMD's etc. as there is with the Hot Stove irreverence.

Are you trying to say that we're trading Matt Kemp to Iraq now?

2007-12-14 09:43:52
36.   capdodger
So is Cortisone.
2007-12-14 09:47:38
37.   alnyden
The big news from yesterday is that it turns out two Dodger heroes were cheaters. Gagne's 80 game streak is just as tainted as Bond's home run records. The "Heart and Soul" of the clubhouse was a drug pusher. This depresses me to no end. This is not ancient history, this happened three years ago.

Baseball needs to retain some measure of innocence for me to love this game. The next time someone like Gange comes along and does something extraordinary, we are less likely to be amazed and more likely to be wondering what he's taking.

I think our outrage would be better served on our fallen heroes rather than some internet rumors. I know it still took talent and drive to accomplish what they did, but I can't say I will ever think of Gagne or La Duca in the same way.

2007-12-14 09:49:08
38.   das411
But Jon! There is even better, dare i say TERRIFIC news today:

"The National Championship contest will be the fifth in program history for the Nittany Lions, as they also advanced in 1993, 1997, 1998 and 1999, clinching the title in 1999. Penn State improves to 53-25 in the NCAA Tournament and is one of two teams - with the other being the Cardinal[s] - to appear in every postseason event since its inception in 1981."

2007-12-14 09:49:15
39.   D4P
Baseball needs to retain some measure of innocence for me to love this game

You're out of luck. Players do illegal stuff, a lot of them are jerks, and many/most play primarily for the money.

That's just the way it is. If you want saints and angels, look elsewhere.

2007-12-14 09:50:13
40.   GiantturnedDodger
22 29

It is obvious that you are probably right.

2007-12-14 09:51:04
41.   capdodger
39 If you want saints and angels, look elsewhere.

I hear there's a presidential race on right now.

2007-12-14 09:51:38
42.   kinbote
28 The Mariners' home page basically states we've agreed to a 3y/$33m contract with Kuroda with only a physical in the way. A deal could be announced today. (I don't have time to post the link--I got it via the Dodger message board.)
2007-12-14 09:53:29
43.   jasonungar07
I wonder why I am the type of person who cares less about all this. I am a new dad and I would never want my kid on Steroids.

But yet no offense alnyden (certainly not singling you out) I am nowhere close to being depressed to no end and I am huge fan of baseball. I have my Game Over shirt etc...

2007-12-14 09:54:50
44.   GoBears
Mark Whicker of the Register takes the unpopular view regarding the Mitchell Report.

Actually, it looks to me like this is the POPULAR view. Once Clemens and Pettitte showed up, ESPN has been falling all over themselves to slam the report, its process, and the naming of names.

If there had been no Yankee stars, I imagine ESPN would be much less skeptical.

I'm not saying it's wrong to be skeptical. Just that it seems to be the popular way to go.

2007-12-14 09:56:56
45.   Andrew Shimmin
2007-12-14 09:58:04
46.   Kayaker7
I don't agree with Whicker. He basically applies a legal standard of "innocent until proven guilty." I don't see the purpose of this report to convict people with such airtight legal cases. If you apply that sort of a standard, then you'd have to disregard 99% of investigative reporting.

Marion Jones flatly denied drug use, until her recent mea culpa. Athletes like Clemens will continue to deny, knowing that they'll be able to hide behind the fact that they'll never be prosecuted and convicted.

2007-12-14 09:58:54
47.   Sam DC
44 ESPN had its major takedown of the process used to generate the report -- Howard Bryant's piece that I excerpted and linked here -- up Wednesday night. Maybe they already had the names, although I doubt they would have sat on the names if they had them.
2007-12-14 10:00:26
48.   D4P
In my view, being in the report doesn't prove a player's guilt. It does, however, mean (for me) that the probability of their guilt is greater than 0.5.
2007-12-14 10:01:28
49.   D4P
The irony of ESPN's position is that they probably use many of the same tactics in reporting their trade rumors and such, which is relevant to the content of Jon's post.
2007-12-14 10:01:39
50.   Bulldog1988
I wonder when this report is going to hit the local bookstore in print. It seems that lately all these reports end up being published. And if it has hit the library catalog people it is only a matter of time.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-12-14 10:01:44
51.   Jon Weisman
"Dodgers catcher Russell Martin was named winner of the 2007 Tip O'Neill Award presented annually by the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame to the Canadian player judged to have excelled in individual achievement and team contribution, while adhering to baseball's highest ideals."

Bob can educate you on the Tipster.

2007-12-14 10:02:31
52.   MC Safety
33 The thing is, now anyone with suspicious HR numbers can be fingered. The media keeps shoving PED's and Baseball down our throats to where I honestly would not put it past anyone. I cant believe other HR hitters with numbers like Barry are clean anymore. These people are ruthless when it comes to fame and fortune.
2007-12-14 10:04:51
53.   LogikReader
If they really wanted to expose players, baseball could have hired to investigate.

Maybe I should take a mini-vacation from DT until this blows over...

2007-12-14 10:05:45
54.   capdodger
45 You're missing the point in 34 . I know they use it. I just don't like it. It allows playing through what ought to be immoblizing swelling and pain.
2007-12-14 10:06:52
55.   madmac
2007-12-14 10:07:35
56.   Bulldog1988
51 Good job Russell.

Now what exactly do they consider baseball's highest ideals?

2007-12-14 10:08:23
57.   Johnson
30 I don't see WNBC burning their source for the bad list. I'm sure they'd like to take some of the heat off of themselves, but I see it going down like this:

1. Bored college kid makes a list based on what's already out there and sprinkles in some big names - notably Pujols but NOT A-Rod (remember, we're in NYC here).

2. Bored college kid calls up WNBC the morning of the release, claims to be a low-level employee of the Yankees/Mets and that he found a copy of the report.

3. WNBC, in a rush to beat everybody else to the punch, and only having 2-3 hours before the official release, jumps on the "insider info" without having an opportunity to verify anything.

Now, if that's the way it went, and you're WNBC, are you going to burn your source? No. Saying "Sorry, this is a huge story and we published libelious and flat out wrong information on the basis of a source that was previously unknown to us and turned out to be a complete and total fraud, but, hey, we're still a paragon of journalistic excellence!" is far far worse than just keeping mum and letting people think you were burned by a trustworthy source with an agenda, or even better, just having people forget it ever happened.

I could be wrong - maybe WNBC did have a truly trusted source that had given them good info in the past - but if it's anything like my speculation there will be no source-burning.

2007-12-14 10:11:32
58.   Kayaker7
52 That's true. But, if MLB had a tougher drug policy, you'd be able to enjoy outstanding performance without wondering.

One name on the list that brought back old suspicions was Brady Anderson. What a flukey year he had in 96.

2007-12-14 10:11:33
59.   Andrew Shimmin
54- I see. I'm glad you said that, because now the argument makes sense to me. You think baseball should hurt. That that's part of the deal not because medicine hasn't advanced sufficiently to end that, but that it really ought to be part of the deal. It's consistent; I'm not persuaded at all by it, but at least I get it now. I don't think there's any great honor in injury. It's not shameful (the reason I think J.D. Drew often gets a raw deal), but it's not a morally important aspect of the game.

I think medicine is good. I think that drugs used to produce better than natural results are problematic, but that drugs used to preserve or restore natural ability are peachy.

2007-12-14 10:15:11
60.   Jon Weisman
38 - We need this one. How else will we get to make the C in Cardinal yellow like UCLA's?
2007-12-14 10:15:49
61.   scareduck
Whicker, for the record, has the most intelligent commentary I have read so far.
2007-12-14 10:16:10
62.   regfairfield
57 I do think the guy who made the fake list had some inside information, there were names on there like Paxton Crawford and Scott Schonwiess that he wouldn't have come up with on his own.

Though throwing Darryl Kile on the list pretty much ensures his place in hell.

2007-12-14 10:16:27
63.   Eric Stephen
Since Stanford already has 50 NCAA championships, they can just make the L yellow for now!
2007-12-14 10:19:56
64.   delias man
This Gagne situation is disappointing and obvious all at the same time. But I just don't understand how HGH can make the curve dance like it did, and the offspeed so very slow. Can anybody correct me on this, because I do not feel like his accomplishments on the mound are any less.
2007-12-14 10:20:22
65.   LogikReader
Question: (I changed my mind, no mini-vacation)

What event was it being referenced in 38 ? There was no link

2007-12-14 10:22:40
66.   KG16
44, 46, 48 - Whicker is applying the wrong legal standard. This is something that's suited to a preponderance of the evidence (civil action) rather than beyond reasonable doubt (criminal action). A preponderance of the evidence means "more likely than not."

Also, what is the due process argument? This is not a trial or investigation conducted by the government, this is a private enterprise hiring private individuals to conduct an investigation.

I don't think the players (on orders from the union) refused to participate because of due process concerns. If that was the sole concern, they could have negotiated something to deal with these due process concerns. They did not because they were trying to protect themselves.

I've moved on to the acceptance stage. I am not happy about all this, but am at least now willing to figure out where we go from here.

2007-12-14 10:23:02
67.   Andrew Shimmin
2007-12-14 10:24:58
68.   Eric Stephen
Playing devil's advocate (or God's advicoate, I'm not sure which side I'm on)...

The key to the changeup is the difference from the speed of the fastball, with the same arm action. If HGH made Gagne's fastball faster, that would increase the difference between that and his changeup, making the changeup more devastating.

2007-12-14 10:26:35
69.   LogikReader

Is this going to be on TV? I want to watch!

What is "nittany" I wonder? A "nittany" lion sounds like a mother lion of some sort. I'll be back in a moment.

2007-12-14 10:27:00
70.   capdodger
59 - It's not so much that it should hurt. It's more that individual players have a distibution of accuired talents and innate attributes. The difference between the two is the former can be taught while the latter cannot. You can move up the talent distribution as far as your underlying abliltes will let you, but you can't change the underlying attribute. I believe the ability to avoid or recover from is an inate. That's why injuries to a player aren't shameful. They aren't (usually) indicative of lack of will or training. They are simply part of who a player is.

Cortisone - I have a special problem with as well: You're body is trying to tell you something by swelling up and refusing to move. Just perhaps you should listen to it.

2007-12-14 10:28:06
71.   LogikReader

Ok, I'm back.

Let's hear it for Penn State with the answers:

"...the word comes from a Native American term meaning, 'single mountain.'"

2007-12-14 10:28:43
72.   Kayaker7
64 This is the thesis I've stated before. If you don't have to exert maximum effort, you have much better control. That is why pitchers are much more accurate when they don't over throw. Try drawing a straight line with a death grip on a pencil. Impossible. Gagne's off speed pitches were so effective because he could throw the 98 MPH heater.
2007-12-14 10:29:34
73.   Andrew Shimmin
My body tells me to eat a bucket of bacon for every meal. I tell it to shut up. Usually.
2007-12-14 10:29:43
74.   Disabled List
57 Right on all counts. Which is exactly why I'm expecting that the one paragraph apology/retraction is all we're gonna see in the way of hand-wringing from WNBC.

And the state of American journalism sinks even lower.

2007-12-14 10:31:28
75.   capdodger
73 That's because your genes tell you that this may be the last bucket of bacon you see for the rest of the month. At least until your hunting party kills it's next boar.
2007-12-14 10:33:43
76.   OaklandAs
57 Names like Crawford and Schoeneweis had already come out well before the Mitchell report. Crawford, in particular, had a long confession in the Boston Globe.

What the fake list writer did was include every player who had already been implicated, plus added a few big names on his own. But the inclusion of the obscure guys like Crawford made it look more realistic.

2007-12-14 10:34:33
77.   Andrew Shimmin
Exactly. Stupid genes. There's always more bacon. Pay attention already.
2007-12-14 10:36:47
78.   Andrew Shimmin
And hey, what's it been, a couple million years? Lets get busy on the flying thing, why don't we?
2007-12-14 10:39:35
79.   capdodger
78 We'd need smaller brains and we'd probably lose the opposable thumbs. Besides, skydiving is close enough, right?
2007-12-14 10:43:24
80.   delias man
68,72 So the batters would not be AS off balance if the FB was at 90-92?
2007-12-14 10:46:05
81.   natepurcell

Also allows for quicker recovery time from outings and injuries.

2007-12-14 10:46:23
82.   Kayaker7
80 Yup. That's what I'm saying.
2007-12-14 10:46:26
83.   berkowit28
I think medicine is good. I think that drugs used to produce better than natural results are problematic, but that drugs used to preserve or restore natural ability are peachy.

I agree. I find it very hard to discern what exactly is "wrong", "cheating" and so on in using one substance rather than another before such a substance is declared either illegal or against the rules. Once it's against the rules - whether the rules are really rational or not - OK, it's wrong to use the substance. But all these players being condemned for using HGH before it was declared out of bounds - I find that a bit hard to take.

What if it turns out that large amounts of Vitamin E aid athletic performance? Is it then wrong to take Vitamin E by injection (if that is possible, for the sake of argument)? How about eating large amounts of natural foods that contain Vitamin E? Would it be cheating to do either of these before MLB declared it improper? So where would you draw the line between that and a good diet? Where do you draw the line between taking HGH before it was declared off-limits and taking lots of vitamins? How about taking prescribed drugs helping recovery from Tommy John surgery?

2007-12-14 10:48:03
84.   ToyCannon
I understand what Capdodger is saying. The shot is going to allow the player to play through a condition that he probably shouldn't until they address the issue of why the swelling was occuring in the 1st place.
For anyone who has ever had a cortisone shot it is not a pleasant experience. This is not really a shot as it is a sharp tube shoved into the appropiate area with the cream forcibly shoved into you. One must be in a lot of pain in the 1st place to subject themselves to such a procedure. At least that is how it has been explained to me.
2007-12-14 10:49:02
85.   berkowit28
83 Sorry - I forgot to indicate I was quoting 59 as the first paragraph in bold.
2007-12-14 10:52:32
86.   Disabled List
Fire Joe Morgan has been in rare form the last couple of days.
2007-12-14 10:54:51
87.   D4P
Regarding hearsay: I don't see much incentive on the part of trainers to lie about injecting players. If they're not gonna tell the truth, they're not gonna tell anything in the first place. You unnecessarily subject yourself to serious trouble by lying about such things.
2007-12-14 10:56:31
88.   ToyCannon
Can't we have it all. I read about humans flying around with backpacks 40 some odd years ago. When are you brainiacs going to make some progress on that front. I'll be pretty ticked off if the day I die they finally get that thing off the ground so that those of us who can afford to, can fly one. The rest of you can eat cake.

Not that it will be any fun, since by that time the goverment would require that I wear a bubble suit so that I can't hurt myself and cause pain to those bystanders who get upset if my brain spills onto their boots.

2007-12-14 10:57:18
89.   Bulldog1988
84 Cortisone shots aren't that bad Toy. I've had them and if the right doctor does it there is very little pain. My orthopedist used a local to numb the area then used the smallest guage needle he could get away with using. Mind you I had this done on the bottom of both of my feet, not the most pleasant spot for cortisone although I'm sure someone will think of worse.
2007-12-14 11:01:08
90.   D4P
I did something very strange and very bad to my neck/shoulder back in 1998. I was in constant pain and did not sleep for 3 days. I then got a cortizone shot, and the pain went away never to return.
2007-12-14 11:02:58
91.   Marty
I've had two cortisone shots in my back and both were pain-free. I would happily be a spokesman for the cortisone industry.
2007-12-14 11:04:03
92.   Kayaker7
90 Cortisone shrinks swelling. So, if your pain was due to swollen tissue that was causing impingement, then reduced swelling is the solution. In some cases, it supposedly even dissolves scar tissue. The only bad thing is, with repeated use, it damages articular cartilage.
2007-12-14 11:04:24
93.   delias man
82 I'm just going to move on. Can't worry about this too much, they didn't win anything anyways. What is up with Kuroda!
2007-12-14 11:04:29
94.   ToyCannon
So scratch 84, I should know better then to post innuendo and hearsay. I guess my friend was just an exaggerating wimp.
2007-12-14 11:07:00
95.   Terry A
90 - A source close to WNBC tells me that D4P hurt his neck/shoulder when he whipped his head around to catch a second glance at a man wearing pleated and cuffed corduroy trousers.
2007-12-14 11:08:01
96.   das411
69 - Even if it wasn't my Lions vs Jon's Cardinals you'd want to watch this, because women's volleyball is the greatest sport EVER!!

also, there is a stuffed nittany lion, one of the last around iirc, in the lobby of the (yes) Paterno library on campus. Just fyi.

2007-12-14 11:08:04
97.   regfairfield
76 Ah, got it. I wonder how many Mets fans quit following the team when they signed Schoenweis?
2007-12-14 11:11:25
98.   Bob Timmermann

It's not Cardinals.

The team is not named after a bird that does not inhabit California.

2007-12-14 11:12:57
99.   D4P
My head whips around for no man. Well, I did turn around to watch Bill and Chelsea Clinton after they passed by me in Manhattan a few years ago.

Plus, I wore pleated and cuffed corduroy trousers back in '98.

2007-12-14 11:14:49
100.   vtayafool
Everytime I read "WNBC" I keep thinking about Howard Stern in Private Parts.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-12-14 11:14:55
101.   capdodger
83 - If no rules/laws prohibit an act at the time it's committed, then legally it's not cheating. That doesn't mean we can't determine that, going forward, the same act is cheating. It just means we can't rewrite the past. We can try and figure out who, what, when, and how, but we can't take whiteout to the record books. Say, "These records were set by people performing acts that were later banned," instead of "These records were set by people performing banned acts." Don't erase the story, but incorporate the new information.

Is it then wrong to take Vitamin E by injection (if that is possible, for the sake of argument)? How about eating large amounts of natural foods that contain Vitamin E? Would it be cheating to do either of these before MLB declared it improper?

Yes. It would be cheating if declared improper.

So where would you draw the line between that and a good diet?
Tricky. Im not going to try to address a hypothetical like this. It would depend on what the research says. What are the risks and benefits? What is a normal level? I imagine it would probably be a moot point since the body can only absorb so much of a substance before homeostasis kicks in and the excess is excreted.

Where do you draw the line between taking HGH before it was declared off-limits and taking lots of vitamins? How about taking prescribed drugs helping recovery from Tommy John surgery?
See, here's why what was done was cheating.
Vitamins can be bought OTC. Prescribed drugs after TJ are kosher. A doctor puts his licence and livelihood at stake when he writes a script. Thing is, most of these HGH guys didn't have a prescription. They didn't go down the CVS and pick it up. They bought it mail-order from clubbie without a script. That's illegal, and that's why it's cheating.

2007-12-14 11:15:53
102.   regfairfield
Clothes that make me look like a total dork
37. Corduroy trousers
2007-12-14 11:15:55
103.   Bob Timmermann
The volleyball final will be on ESPN2 Saturday at 6 pm in the proper time zone.
2007-12-14 11:15:57
104.   Wilbert Robinson
I think the most important point people who are in the "who cares if so and so did steroids camp" should be making would be in regard to weight training. Isn't it true that steroids are useless unless coupled with weight training? If so wouldn't it be more fitting to label the "steroid era" as the "weight lifting era"? Because it would seem to me that players of the past didn't lift a lot of weights. the players of the modern era do. Wouldn't the increase in numbers be more attributable to the fact that they lift weights rather than use steroids? Isn't the difference between a weight lifter versus a non weight lifter vastly greater than the steroids lifter versus non steroids lifter? And if this is the case the people who should be being punished for this entire debacle are the ones who pushed the steroids in the first place.
2007-12-14 11:19:19
105.   MC Safety
99 My head whipped around in similar fashion when I spotted Dustin Hoffman walking down Oxford St. in London. He is really short, and his face looked really tight.
2007-12-14 11:19:51
106.   D4P
Isn't it true that steroids are useless unless coupled with weight training?

No. Steroids help you recover more quickly not only from workouts, but also from injuries. That's partly which doctors prescribe them.

2007-12-14 11:20:39
107.   Eric Enders
98 "The team is not named after a bird that does not inhabit California."

And yet the state flag features an animal that does not inhabit California.

2007-12-14 11:20:48
108.   capdodger
94 My grandmother had cortisone shots in her knees so that she could dance at my wedding. She said the shots hurt a little, but after a day they felt much better. I don't think she was too worried about the loss of cartilage since she'd already planned replacement surgery for the subsequent week.
2007-12-14 11:24:54
109.   ToyCannon
2007-12-14 11:26:15
110.   Bob Timmermann
There were grizzlies in California in 1850.

But I'm still waiting for cardinals to make it past the Arizona desert. They don't seem to be able to get that far.

2007-12-14 11:27:55
111.   ToyCannon
The California grizzly bear (Ursus arctos californicus[citation needed]) disappeared from the state of California in 1922 when the last one was shot in Tulare County, but it is still on the state flag of California. The bear is alluded to in the names of the sports teams of the University of California, Berkeley (the California Golden Bears), and of the University of California, Los Angeles (the UCLA Bruins) and in the mascot of University of California, Riverside (Scottie the Bear, dressed in a Highland kilt).
2007-12-14 11:28:23
112.   capdodger
105 Obviously he's botoxing. Someone call SAG! He's making them look bad!
2007-12-14 11:29:18
113.   MC Safety
108 Thats awesome. My grandpa has been known to jump in on the Dance Dance Revolution sessions from time to time.
2007-12-14 11:30:34
114.   Eric Enders
107 As I understand it, grizzlies used to inhabit pretty much the entire western U.S., including all of California. Now they can only be found in Alaska, and Yellowstone and Glacier National Parks and their surrounding areas. (And also perhaps a tiny bit of Washington State depending on who you believe.)

Also depending on who you believe, the Northern Cardinal does inhabit a small section of Southern California along the Colorado River.

2007-12-14 11:34:05
115.   old dodger fan
From "All About Birds" published by Cornell University:

The cardinal benefits from park-like urban habitats and the presence of bird feeders. However, it is listed as a species of special concern in California and may disappear there because of habitat loss.

2007-12-14 11:34:34
116.   capdodger
111 I'll have to add that to my rotation of Tulare County facts:
1) It's like "The Grapes of Wrath."
2) Named after an extinct lake.
3) Has a bacteria (Francisella tularensis) and disease named after it (Tularemia).
4) Uhh... that's about it...
2007-12-14 11:37:43
117.   Sushirabbit
73, I always picture you sitting down with Clarissa Dickson Wright and Jennifer Paterson.

84, When you really need the cortisone, you basically don't even feel the shot.

All this talk makes me think of the old Denial, Anger, Acceptance comments. I don't even remember when that was--- I think when I first started reading Jon's blog.

2007-12-14 11:37:53
118.   ToyCannon
Bob is going to have his Audubon membership revoked for passing on misleading information about such an important bird.
2007-12-14 11:38:38
119.   old dodger fan
Frankly I would much rather talk about birds, bears or even Juan Pierre than HGH, etc.
2007-12-14 11:39:09
120.   Bob Timmermann
The Audubon people drummed out of their society when I couldn't tell the difference between a crow and a raven.
2007-12-14 11:39:34
121.   Bluebleeder87
just checked, know Kuroda news yet ah...
2007-12-14 11:39:34
122.   Wilbert Robinson
106 well ok useless was imprecise. Useless to increasing one's strength in order to do something like hitting more home runs.
2007-12-14 11:43:02
123.   KG16
104 - ever see the professional weight lifting competitions where they had a "natural" division? The jucied guys were as far beyond the clean guys as the clean guys were beyond the average guy. Granted, different situation, but still, I think a useful reference point.
2007-12-14 11:44:48
124.   capdodger
Oh... And the world's largest ag show: The World Ag Expo. If you're in Tulare in February, check it out. But then, why else would you be in Tulare.
2007-12-14 11:47:38
125.   Bob Timmermann
My advertising slogan for the Tulare Chamber of Commerce:
Tulare, it's not just the e that isn't silent around here!
2007-12-14 11:49:26
126.   Marty
I have fond memories of Tulare county. I used to camp up in a place called Balch Park outside of beautiful Springville.
2007-12-14 11:50:01
127.   LogikReader
The "e" isn't silent? It's pronounced "too-laree?"
2007-12-14 11:51:52
128.   Daniel Zappala
Missed all the steroid discussion yesterday, but if I get this right, basically a player was fingered if his source happened to be one of the two guys who provided evidence for the report. Meaning there are likely a lot of other players whose sources weren't turned.

Seems like there will be a lot of players who are simultaneously relieved and yet also worried that they could be next if their source decides to talk.

2007-12-14 11:51:59
129.   Marty
The "e" is quite noisy
2007-12-14 11:53:19
130.   Bob Timmermann
2007-12-14 11:53:34
131.   capdodger
The county is quite pretty once you cross the line into citrus orchards and up on into the foothills. I lived on the walnut and dairy side of the line.
2007-12-14 11:53:45
132.   MC Safety
Any Apple Annie's fans here?
2007-12-14 11:57:46
133.   Wilbert Robinson
The jucied guys were as far beyond the clean guys as the clean guys were beyond the average guy. I find it hard to believe that a weight lifter would look that close to an average guy. If this were true I would have to believe that the ones in the natural division not as committed to weight lifting as the ones in the juiced division. If you were not on steriods under these circumstances and all of the best competition was found under the juiced division and your objective was to prove you were the best wouldn't you compete in the juiced division in order to prove it? The fact that there was a juiced division doesn't necessarily mean that everyone within the division was on steroids.
2007-12-14 11:59:37
134.   capdodger
133 You're misreading him.
2007-12-14 12:01:31
135.   Daniel Zappala
Incidentally, I preferred the San Diego Union-Tribune reporting today, as compared to the LA Times. Pretty sad.
2007-12-14 12:03:50
136.   Jim Hitchcock
114 (And also perhaps a tiny bit of Washington State depending on who you believe.)

Nope, sorry, them thar's just Bigfeet :)

2007-12-14 12:04:44
137.   FiftyYearDodgerFan
I don't want to trivialize the Mitchell Report, but we have to remember that the players named came from a limited number of snitches. Some of them cooperated with Mitchell as a result of plea bargain arrangements with prosecutors, others just volunteered their information.

We have no idea how reliable this information may be. Some evidence, such as the shipments to Gagne at Dodger Stadium, seem pretty convincing. In other cases, however, we only have the word of an individual who claims to know what he is talking about.

Many players we think we "know" were taking steroids or HGH were not named. Again, the Mitchell group had a limited number of sources. Let's look at a hypothetical example. Let's say that player X began using when he was with Dodgers and established his drug connection here. If he later went to the Mets and kept his LA drug connection, the clubhouse attendant there would not necessarily have first hand knowledge of player X's usage. Thus when the clubhouse attendant spoke with Mitchell, his omission of player X would not mean that X was clean, only that he had no knowledge of his usage.

The problem with this kind of speculation is that it draws on unsupported inferences and tries to turn them into facts. If one believes that player X was using because "everyone says so" and he put up monster numbers, then it is easy to step over the line and believe that X managed to avoid getting named, but is guilty nonetheless.

We need to put all of this behind us and not worry about the past. Learn from it. Learn that the system can't and won't police itself. Institute serious testing for performance enhancing drugs and have a zero tolerance policy. If you get caught using steroids or HGH, you are out of the game. If we correct the problem on a go forward basis, we can forget the past – with all of its shadows and whispers - and concentrate on baseball again.

2007-12-14 12:05:09
138.   Bob Timmermann
There is a hard-hitting story there about how a guy ended up catching a tuna that wasn't nearly as big as he thought it was.
2007-12-14 12:07:39
139.   Daniel Zappala
138 And that's exactly what I was referring to, Bob.
2007-12-14 12:09:17
140.   Daniel Zappala
Is there a petition to sign for Michael Vick? I think his sentence was far too long, especially after reading his letter to the judge.
2007-12-14 12:09:45
141.   Eric Enders
"a guy ended up catching a tuna that wasn't nearly as big as he thought it was."

See, the Union Tribune is even running stories that are metaphorically about the Mitchell report.

2007-12-14 12:09:50
142.   Frip
So many excuses for cheating.

The ageing player can't compete / the minor leaguer can't advance.

So...don't compete. Baseball is not oxygen. The human organism does not REQUIRE baseball. No one gives the accountant a break when he cooks the books because the poor thing was worried he couldn't be an accountant anymore.

You can't go back and change the stats or place aterisks.

It's not about stats, stat head. It's about one man taking unfair, secretive advantage of another.

The player stands to make a lot of money. And in baseball, stats are money.

Cheating is wrong children...unless the price is right. (And you get to be in a McDonald's commercial.)

Everyone's doing it.

Uh, no they're not. Which is why it's called cheating.

The drug hasn't even been proven to work.

It probably works. More importantly, it is the player's intent that it works. Which is an intent to cheat.

There are many unfair advantages in life.

Baseball is not life, it's sport…a system of rules and parameters precisely set for humans to play within. So we can see how we measure up under equal circumstance.

Rules are for boy scouts, small potatoes really. They get broken.

Rules ARE the sport. Breaking the rules, is not playing the sport. It is doing something else.

I don't care.

You wouldn't.

2007-12-14 12:14:26
143.   Daniel Zappala
If somebody had said something about boy scouts, I would have noticed.
2007-12-14 12:18:10
144.   Bob Timmermann
So the high moral ground is occupied by the person who equated Japanese-American community groups with Nazis?
2007-12-14 12:18:19
145.   old dodger fan
140 If I recall correctly the sentencing guidelines were 10-24 months and the judge went high which seemed odd since Vick did not have a criminal record. The judge was mad because Vick failed a drug test (marijuana) while awaiting sentencing (which was really stupid of him) and it turns out he lied about his involvement in killing some dogs. The judge was so mad that he made Vick show up for sentencing in prison garb despite Vick's request to be allowed to appear in a business suit. Vick tried to make a statment of apology and the judge cut him off and told him he should be apologizing to all the kids who held him up as a role model.

I don't know who you would send the petition to but that judge does not sound like one who will budge.

2007-12-14 12:18:23
146.   Andrew Shimmin
143- You would.
2007-12-14 12:20:08
147.   Eric Enders
"Rules ARE the sport. Breaking the rules, is not playing the sport. It is doing something else."

Agreed. Which means George Mitchell now needs to go do a report that tries to identify every player who has ever gotten a hit when their back foot was outside the batter's box. And we need to expunge those players' stats from the record. Also any pitcher who has ever struck out a batter after taking longer than the rulebook-mandated 20 seconds between pitches. And next we crack down on Bobby Thomson's home run and all the other moments made possible by sign stealing.

And of course, we throw out the entire careers of Don Drysdale, Don Sutton, and Orel Hershiser, among others, because they are known to have doctored baseballs. And then we round up all the batters before the 1980s (when the rule was changed) who ever put pine tar too far up on their bat, and expunge their records too. And we strike all the hits that players have ever gotten while a teammate's number or other extraneous writing was handwritten on their caps, since that's against the rules. And of course, we go back and review video of every double play ever turned, to make sure the second baseman actually touched the bag.

We do all that and then maybe a few dozen other things, and then finally we'll have a record book that is free of the taint of cheating. A record book in which everyone has played exactly by the rules. That's what we want, right?

2007-12-14 12:20:32
148.   Andrew Shimmin
High dudgeon is like cowbell. You always need more.
2007-12-14 12:26:55
149.   KG16
134 - thanks. part of the problem is I said "weight lifting" instead of "body building", which is what I actually meant.

The difference between say Arnold circa 1975 and this guy, is what I'm talking about...

2007-12-14 12:27:05
150.   Bob Timmermann
So if we're not entirely in favor of having every single player who used steroids to be executed after a show trial, we (the fans) are all complicit in the cheating.

The fans already are complicit in the cheating by not complaining about it while it occurred.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-12-14 12:30:30
151.   KG16
145 - granted, I don't practice criminal law, let alone federal criminal law, but I do believe they could appeal the sentence to the Court of Appeal (I forget which circuit Virginia is in). But, I believe the standard on sentencing is "abuse of discretion" which is, legal, the highest standard for getting a reversal.
2007-12-14 12:31:14
152.   Daniel Zappala
145 Can you appeal a sentencing? It seems wrong that just because a judge was mad he gets a long sentence. He was very apologetic, has no compulsion to do any wrong again, much less dog fighting, and is not a threat to society.
2007-12-14 12:31:42
153.   natepurcell
Dbacks trade Callaspo for Billy Buckner.
2007-12-14 12:32:49
154.   Curtis Lowe
Multiple rule 4,5 and 8 violations make Curtis a dull boy....

Multiple rule 4,5 and 8 violations make Curtis a dull boy.

Multiple rule 4,5 and 8 violations make Curtis a dull boy.

2007-12-14 12:34:05
155.   old dodger fan
150 Lots of people complained about Bonds, McGuire and Giambi once we know about them. How could a fan complain about LoDuca or even Clemens? I sure didn't know. I'm not even sure what I know now. I've suspected a few (some were on the list, some not).

Other than staying home or turning off the TV how can a fan complain? I love the game far more than any of the players. I don't want to turn it off.

2007-12-14 12:37:08
156.   Humma Kavula
This is why I stand by what I wrote yesterday. Baseball needs a truth and reconciliation commission. Come before us and tell the truth. There shall be no punishment, no retribution.

Personally, I would rather not know, but it's pretty clear that I'm in a distinct minority there. People want to know about what went on. The only way to do that is to have it out and clean the slate.

Baseball won't ever forget this, but we can put it behind us. We will forgive.

2007-12-14 12:39:07
157.   Wilbert Robinson
106 also there is no conclusive evidence that anabolic steroids does aid in recovery time from injuries. Doctors often prescribe certain types of Corticosteroids for things like skin diseases, burns, joint pain and inflammation. Anabolic steroids I believe are never prescribed for an injury. Rather they are used for certain types of bone and hormone deficiencies. Its not as though you break your wrist or pull a muscle and your doctor gives you anabolic steroids. It takes a serious disease or growth deficiency to be prescribed anabolic steroids.
2007-12-14 12:39:44
158.   Bob Timmermann
Not everyone is going to forgive. Some want a pound or two of flesh. And then find some other target that they demand a pound of flesh from.

And over and over and over in an unceasing quest to have everything in the world be perfect.

But the world is imperfect. We are all imperfect.

2007-12-14 12:42:47
159.   old dodger fan
158 But we can strive to be better. Webster said the world would be a better place if we stopped trying to be great and strived instead to be good.
2007-12-14 12:43:26
160.   D4P
Yep. Don't let the great be the enemy of the good, or even the marginally better.
2007-12-14 12:43:49
161.   Eric Enders
155 "Other than staying home or turning off the TV how can a fan complain? I love the game far more than any of the players. I don't want to turn it off."

Exactly. The steroids thing is something that baseball fans, by and large, don't care about. Or maybe they do care, but not enough to actually voice their displeasure by refusing to go to games or refusing to generate ad revenue by watching on TV.

The steroids scandal is almost entirely media driven, and it was created to pander to that segment of the public which craves salacious news about celebrities. The same types of people who made the O.J. trial a veritable religion, or who want to know whether Kevin Costner is cheating on his wife. The scandal was created, essentially, to appeal to the non-baseball fan segment of the public, the Entertainment Tonight crowd. Baseball fans just don't care -- at least not enough to stop giving their money to players so they can buy steroids.

2007-12-14 12:43:55
162.   berkowit28
101 "Is it then wrong to take Vitamin E by injection (if that is possible, for the sake of argument)? How about eating large amounts of natural foods that contain Vitamin E? Would it be cheating to do either of these before MLB declared it improper?

Yes. It would be cheating if declared improper."

But not before it was declared improper, which was my point. As you yourself said, one paragraph up:

"If no rules/laws prohibit an act at the time it's committed, then legally it's not cheating."

2007-12-14 12:45:14
163.   Jon Weisman
Time to clear the palate, folks. New post up top.
2007-12-14 12:49:58
165.   Wilbert Robinson
149 So you're saying that the difference between the guy in that picture and a steroids using body builder is bigger than the difference between me and the guy in that picture? That is just not true. I mean I am probably in above average shape i've been riding a bicycle daily for 10 years and that guy looks absolutely nothing like me. Actually when i saw the picture of that man I for a split second became intensly afraid of a possible oncoming abduction.
2007-12-14 12:57:08
166.   capdodger
164 It was against the law.
2007-12-14 13:02:00
167.   KG16
165 - I'll post here in the non-clean palate post...

here's an example of a guy not clean, as far as I can tell...

2007-12-14 14:18:38
168.   Wilbert Robinson
167 Final word just to clarify my point of view on the unlikely chance that this will ever be read. The impact that advances of weight training have had on Major League Basball outweight the impact that steroids have had on it. I'm not saying that because of this all should be forgiven. in actuality it makes the whole thing worse. Steroids could have been easily avoidable because the gains in something like home run numbers would have increased naturally through simple weight training. The fact that players used steroids is sad mainly because these players could have acheieved much of whatever it is they acheived without them. It is also sad because this has caused many people to exaggerate the impact that steroids have had on the game. Also it is sad that trainers who administered and pushed these steroids are getting off for naming names just because the players are the bigger fish when trainers share a large portion of the responsibility for what happened.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.