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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

The Simplistic Ranking System Goes National
2007-12-20 08:35
by Jon Weisman

My - or should I say, our - survey of National League starting rotations should hit soon:

I don't know if the reward fits the good deed, but in gratitude for several Dodger Thoughts commenters helping me with the research and offering suggestions, I'm going to donate my modest compensation for the column - specifically, to the Kilimanjaro Climb for Clean Water, a cause that my friend Brax Cutchin is deeply involved in.

Comments (188)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-12-20 08:47:03
1.   D4P
Americans definitely take clean water for granted. Durham is down to 36 days of water left. Running out of water is scary.
2007-12-20 08:49:45
2.   Kevin Lewis
From two threads back:

"101. overkill94
93 Thanks. The only problem is when you take a date to a Dodger game; then all the cost-cutting techniques go right out the window and you're left with a much bigger hole in your pocket. I've been told it's not the smoothest move to ask your date to sneak into better seats after trekking half a mile with a backpack full of peanuts. "

You can easily dress up the meal by making a nice picnic before the game. I have brought in salads, chicken dinners, and a lemon chicken cous cous with feta cheese. Of course, the security guard mocked me for it, but it beat paying 4.50 for a hot dog. Oh, and almost every other time I make my own hot dogs, wrap them in aluminum foil, and use the condiments at the stadium.

2007-12-20 08:55:14
3.   Suffering Bruin
Thanks to all who contributed. I would've helped but my reputation for spontaneous comments based on little to no research at all would've suffered. You all understand. :)

And there are still people who wonder why I spend "so much" time on the computer.

2007-12-20 09:02:29
4.   63Dodger
2 Speaking for the ladies, I would love it if my date took the time to put together a little picnic for the game. As a faithful Dodger fan I'll eat the dogs, but the rest of it is pretty evil stuff.
2007-12-20 09:05:00
5.   63Dodger
And Jon, thanks for bringing notice to such a worthy cause. I admire your friend's efforts.
2007-12-20 09:07:20
6.   Eric Stephen
I remember a 13-year-old Eric Stephen watching every inning of the Hamilton game while staying at his grandma's house for the night.

Eddie Murray was on his way to becoming my favorite player, although I'm sure 1990 had more to do with it.

2007-12-20 09:10:23
7.   Kevin Lewis
I think I was camping with my boy scouts troop during that game. One of the dads brought a radio and there was much yelping and sorrow late into the night.
2007-12-20 09:15:18
8.   ibleedbloo
It's been mentioned here more than a few times about how the Dodgers often miss the boat on marketing their young stars. It looks like 2008 will be no exception. Which Dodger fan would want this quartet on the front of their calendar...

...when they could have Martin, Kemp, Loney, etc, etc, etc.

I actually fear that I may end up with one of these because I have been told by many people I am very hard to shop for. Everyone knows of my passion for the Dodgers so I end up with Dodgers socks, Dodger hats that are too small for my head, and Dodger shoe laces. I may be subjected to a month at a time of JP and Nomar; though I guess that a month is better than an entire season.

2007-12-20 09:18:26
9.   Kevin Lewis

I saw that at Target, and I laughed out loud. Pierre, Nomar, Lowe, and Furcal. Yep, those were the four guys that made me excited about Dodger baseball last year.

2007-12-20 09:19:41
10.   Kevin Lewis
OT: Chinese Food Question:

Any good recommendations on Chinese in Pasadena? Our favorite place burned down on S. Fair Oaks, so now we don't know where to go.

2007-12-20 09:24:29
11.   CajunDodger
I like Yang Chow on Colorado between Rosemead and Michillinda.

My wife is Asian, so she is a definite Asian food snob being raised on it, and our favorite place is Noodle World on Colorado in Old Town. It is a noodle house so it is a mix of stuff, but they have the best Thai soups in L.A.

2007-12-20 09:28:44
12.   ToyCannon
Jon, thanks for the link to a worthy cause. While I sit here piddling away, it is great to see people doing something important.

When it finally does rain, you just know you are going to get more then you bargained for. I hope it is soon for your community. We have finally gotten some decent rain out here which was welcome after a very dry season.

2007-12-20 09:33:58
13.   D4P
Yeah. I think the world is entering an era of droughts and floods, more so than we're used to.
2007-12-20 09:35:39
14.   still bevens
[8, 9] Im glad that Kemp has weather the 'any player I buy a tshirt for gets traded' storm of 2007. There's still a small window, but Im keeping my fingers crossed.
2007-12-20 09:39:58
15.   Bob Timmermann
That'll teach you from coming to my neighborhood...
2007-12-20 09:41:15
16.   D4P
Does your shotgun have a flame-throwing attachment...?
2007-12-20 09:42:59
17.   regfairfield
9 To be fair, those things probably got printed in June.
2007-12-20 09:49:58
18.   Daniel Zappala

In the SI article, you've got 16 total points for the Dodgers, but only 15 if you count up what you've assigned. Also "change" should be "chance" in their comments.

2007-12-20 09:57:42
19.   underdog
Neat and generous idea, Jon - in keeping with the season. Kudos.

Well, to get my mind off the fact that my g/f left today for an Xmas with her family, I'm going to play hooky from work in the afternoon to finally see Into the Wild, just to make myself feel even sadder. Hee. Next week I'll be in Sta Barbara if there are any Dodger Thoughts gatherings there let me know.

2007-12-20 10:01:47
20.   underdog
You know, the article on the fateful mega-inning Dodgers-Houston game mentioned in previous thread reminded of that Glenn Davis trade that cost Baltimore Steve Finley, Pete Harnisch, and Curt Schilling, and how that is clearly one of the all-time worst trades.

(And then I remembered this:

Yep. Bad trade. Bad, bad trade.

2007-12-20 10:07:00
21.   Marty
Avoid Pasadena and go down to San Gabriel or Alhambra for Chinese.
2007-12-20 10:07:39
22.   Bob Timmermann
Sam Zell is not naming me to the new board of directors for the Tribune Company, depriving me of the chance of bossing Marty around.
2007-12-20 10:15:57
23.   LAT
14. When you are going 60 mph in Fri. afternoon traffic do you turn to your passenger and say "Wow I can't believe what good time we are making. There's no traffic at all."

What happens after you speak those words aloud? ;-)

2007-12-20 10:21:43
24.   silverwidow
Dontrelle Willis signed a 3 yr/$29 million extension with the Tigers.
2007-12-20 10:22:53
25.   ToyCannon
At the time I remember thinking that was a great trade and that Glenn Davis would be a monster in Baltimore. Who knew his career would be over at 32 and that he was effectively done at 30? I think he had severe back problems which curtailed his career.

The player who gave the Astro's the best value was not Finley or Schilling but Harnish. Houston did not know what they had and gave away Schilling for Jason Grimsley. Grimsley never even pitched for Houston and was released a year later. Then he became famous for the steroid connection.

Finley was part of the huge deal that sent Caminiti to San Diego.
From basebal ref - On December 28, 1994: Traded by the Houston Astros with a player to be named later, Ken Caminiti, Andujar Cedeno, Roberto Petagine, and Brian Williams to the San Diego Padres for Derek Bell, Doug Brocail, Ricky Gutierrez, Pedro Martinez, Phil Plantier, and Craig Shipley. The Houston Astros sent Sean Fesh (minors) (May 1, 1995) to the San Diego Padres to complete the trade.

Schilling April 2, 1992: Traded by the Houston Astros to the Philadelphia Phillies for Jason Grimsley.

However Harnish flourished in Houston and gave them 4 years of which 2 were exceptional.

2007-12-20 10:24:16
26.   ToyCannon
My wife usually slugs me in the arm then a second later I slam on the brakes and pound my head against the window.
2007-12-20 10:27:53
27.   ToyCannon
Last year for Christmas I gave my nephew a Shaun Livingston Jersey and told him he'd be the envy of his friends in a few years. He destroyed his knee several weeks later.

This year I gave him a Kemp jersey. If anything happens to the Bison, feel free to throw me over the rail at the next DT get together. In retrospect I know I should have given him a Kent jersey but I couldn't bring myself to buy it.

2007-12-20 10:32:40
28.   SCRocks
11. Yang Chow's is awesome!

Some of the dish highlights:
Pan Fried Dumplings
Slippery Shrimp
Szechuan Beef

21. Yang Chow's in actually a Chinatown (downtown) restaurant. There are some world class places in Alhambra and San Gabriel but Yang Chow's is not some run of the mill Chinese place...


2007-12-20 10:37:24
29.   bhsportsguy
21 Sam Woo Bbq for dimsum is good.

DT Day for Dimsum/Chinese New Years, who's down for it?

2007-12-20 10:38:07
30.   bhsportsguy
27 Why not Elton Brand, he's already down right now?
2007-12-20 10:40:19
31.   regfairfield
27 This is why I get the blank jerseys. Right now, I'm glad I'm not the one guy out there sporting a Jayson Werth jersey.
2007-12-20 10:41:02
32.   TheBigGrabowski
Jon, you're the best. I try to email all your SI articles to all my friends who are Dodger fans.
2007-12-20 10:45:36
33.   Marty
Yang Chow is ok, but it's Americanized Chinese. I like their spicy won ton soup the best. I typically gauge the authenticity of a Chinese restaurant by how many Chinese there are eating there. You won't see many, if any, Chinese people at Yang Chow.
2007-12-20 10:47:47
34.   Marty
Sea Harbor in/on Rosemead is my current favorite for dim sum. It's an order off the menu style dim sum.

I'm going to 888 Seafood on Valley this Saturday. It is good, but not as good as Sea Harbor. But they are cart-style dim sum and I'm taking a bunch of out of towners and thought the cart experience would be more fun.

2007-12-20 10:47:57
35.   ToyCannon
If he is still a Clipper by Aug then I'll consider it. I would like the Clippers to trade for Turiaf so that we can have 3 era's of Gonzaga represented. You have no idea how cool it was for me to see Richie Frahm popping in three's with assists from Dickau.

Just the story of Dickau and Frahm is amazing. What are the odds that two kids from Washington who grew up best friends from 6th grade on, and went to some obscure Eastern Washington school no one had heard of at the time would team up in the NBA after having played for over 12 teams combined.

2007-12-20 10:54:25
36.   SCRocks
33. The one in downtown is full of Chinese people...

I just like the place and wanted to put in my two cents...


2007-12-20 10:59:07
37.   CajunDodger
Full House is another of the ones that has a place in Chinatown and expanded into a bigger place in the 'burbs. It's in South Arcadia and it is really good. If your standard is how many Chinese people eat there, then both should pass the test.
2007-12-20 11:02:31
38.   Marty
Elite in Monterrey Park is another good dim sum house. They have the chef who used to be at Triumphal Palace and he does a lot of innovative things. I had a braised pork stomach dish that almost had me in tears it was so good.
2007-12-20 11:04:21
39.   MC Safety
Very worthy cause Jon, glad to have made a contribution.
2007-12-20 11:07:36
40.   dzzrtRatt
Jon, what a great cause.

I'm biased toward environmental causes that address problems that are killing people today. I don't know why Gore, Laurie David, Leo DiCaprio et. al. don't throw all of their ability to shine spotlights on problems to focus on the tragic lack of clean water in Africa and other places. This is something that transcends politics, but gets 1/1000th of the attention that the hypothetical problem of global warming gets. Anyway, I'm still digging out of my personal hole but will try to find a way to support your friends and the organization they're trying to help.

2007-12-20 11:08:01
41.   MC Safety
37 My Dad went to Arcadia High! Man was Stevie Nicks gorgeous.
2007-12-20 11:09:28
42.   philmc78
The power of Dodger Thoughts...I mean, wow. Great job on the column at, Jon.
2007-12-20 11:10:10
43.   ToyCannon
BP has put together a great read on outfield defense. Based on his metrics it comes as no surprise to anyone here that Juan Pierre rated last for center fielders mainly on the basis of his poor throwing arm. I do think it would surprise everyone to find out that Brian Giles was by far the worse defensive outfielder in baseball last year.
2007-12-20 11:11:19
44.   Kevin Lewis
I think I might try Yang Chow tomorrow. What is Slippery Shrimp?
2007-12-20 11:12:44
45.   D4P
I understand what you're saying, and don't disagree with it. But I will point out that taking a long-term view and trying to stave off future problems is not a bad idea. Waiting for problems to occur and then reacting is not necessarily an ideal approach.
2007-12-20 11:16:23
46.   bhsportsguy
43 Where would he rate as LF?

Throw stones at

2007-12-20 11:16:36
47.   ToyCannon
If the long term approach to water had been taken 20 years ago, then we might not be having to deal with a short term approach. This did not come out of the blue. I've got plenty of resource material talking about the biggest future problem will be clean fresh water back when I cared about such things.
2007-12-20 11:24:27
48.   ToyCannon
We won't know until he plays LF.

A Jones ranked in the middle of the pack for CF, and the biggest surprise to me was that my man Chris Young was the 2nd worse CF by this rating. And he doesn't even have a bad arm to use as an excuse.

2007-12-20 11:24:37
49.   CajunDodger
It's kinda similar to the walnut shrimp that you find in most chinese places. Fried with a mayonnaise-based sauce. Sounds gross, but it is yummy fried goodness.

I wholeheartedly recommend the Scezhuan (sp) beef.

2007-12-20 11:27:22
50.   Bob Timmermann
Brian Dohn says Norm Chow is out of the running for the UCLA job.

Greg Brock must have told Dan Guerrero about the incident with Chow and the pigeons.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-12-20 11:27:36
51.   D4P
You no longer care about such things...?

Our political system doesn't encourage long-term thinking. Politicians get elected and re-elected by achieving things now, and postponing the costs until later, after they're out of office.

In other words, long-term solutions often involve benefits that aren't realized until much later, but costs that have to be paid now. That doesn't work for a lot of people. We'd rather have our hamburger today and pay for it next Tuesday.

2007-12-20 11:28:23
52.   silverwidow
Rangers "like" Pierre:

2007-12-20 11:33:53
53.   Humma Kavula
53 Make it so.
2007-12-20 11:34:10
54.   D4P
The Rangers apparently like the outfielder the Dodgers are trying to move -- Juan Pierre -- but only if he brings along a significant portion of the $26.5 million remaining on his contract

Trying to move?

It would sure be "something" if:

Dodgers CF:
2006: Lofton
2007: Pierre

Rangers CF:
2007: Lofton
2008: Pierre

2007-12-20 11:40:32
55.   ibleedbloo
I'd like Pierre a bit more if that was what he was really owed. Should that 2 not be a 3? Isn't it 36.5 mil, not 26.5?
2007-12-20 11:40:32
56.   Kevin Lewis

I will light a candle for that deal to happen this Christmas.

2007-12-20 11:40:41
57.   bhsportsguy
50 You think this place goes berserk over "Fredo" at times. Trainwreck and others who have access to a certain UCLA subscription know that the minions are going beyond crazy about this football hire.
2007-12-20 11:41:15
58.   silverwidow
55 Yeah, it's $36.5
2007-12-20 11:42:07
59.   D4P
I wondered about that. 26 seemed much lower than I thought.
2007-12-20 11:42:30
60.   jasonungar07
Do you guys think that the Clemens family will heading over to the Schilling's for X-mas..? No, not thinking that..ok.
2007-12-20 11:43:41
61.   Bob Timmermann
They will not be happy until someone flies to Boise, slips Chris Peterson a mickey, drags him on a plane and puts him in with the checked bags, and then points a gun at a him until he signs a contract over at UCLA.
2007-12-20 11:48:04
62.   LogikReader

Schilling really needs to shut his mouth. I am going to laugh if Schilling gets outed for PED's himself.

2007-12-20 11:51:29
63.   regfairfield
62 I don't know, everything he's said makes sense. The only guy I've seen that's flipped out and threatened to sue over PED's is Todd Helton. It seems like the right thing to do if you're actually clean.
2007-12-20 11:51:53
64.   dzzrtRatt
I'm all for planning for the future. Our society can walk and chew gum at the same time. However, my observation is that every other environmental issue, including many that are causing ecological destruction and public health disasters today, are being crowded out of the public debate by the global warming issue, which for some reason has become kind of a Hollywood chic thing. I would just like a little balance. Therefore, my real point is to praise Jon, his friends and the organization they're trying to help. It's vital.
2007-12-20 11:52:06
65.   regfairfield
And just remember, you can't spell "Gamer" without "Curt Schilling is a Gamer".
2007-12-20 11:53:12
66.   dzzrtRatt
63 Threatening to sue is just rhetoric. Actually suing puts your contention to the test. The first guy who is willing to sit for a deposition -- that's the guy I'll be certain about.
2007-12-20 11:53:19
67.   Greg Brock
Guess who has two weeks off starting...Now?

This Guy

2007-12-20 11:54:13
68.   jasonungar07
So if McCourt just raises parking by 5 bucks, which he will do soon anyways..

If my Math is is right: 5 X 50,000 x 81= 20 million and no mas Juan Pierre.

2007-12-20 11:54:30
69.   Bob Timmermann
I had one of the more virulent commenters at BTF get after me when I said that filing a libel suit in the U.S. is very hard and that baseball players, as public figures, would really have a huge obstacle to overcome to win a victory in court.
2007-12-20 11:55:41
70.   D4P
Were you pointing at yourself with both thumbs...?
2007-12-20 11:58:08
71.   Greg Brock
70 Indeed I was, Delino4Pedro.

Indeed I was.

2007-12-20 11:59:07
72.   ibleedbloo
68 The lot may seem like it holds 50,000 cars, but I think its somewhere like 16,000
2007-12-20 12:03:12
73.   Marty
I'm taking tomorrow and most of next week off. Which actually means I'll be working from home.
2007-12-20 12:09:33
74.   regfairfield
68 I remember the reports were that McCourt would make about seven million from the parking increase.
2007-12-20 12:10:32
75.   bhsportsguy
69 It's also hard when all the allegations are based on someone else telling him or from some other source. And also, who was the publisher, MLB, ESPN, etc.

This is not the National Enquirer and Carol Burnett. Unless Roger Clemens can show that George Mitchel (or MLB) knew that the allegations were false and "published" it anyway, you might have a case. But using sourced material and believing it to be true does not bode well in a libel situation.

2007-12-20 12:12:05
76.   jasonungar07
72 see this is why I was never good at word problems.
2007-12-20 12:13:51
77.   Bob Timmermann
A parking lot that can hold 50,000 cars would require about 10 million square feet and that doesn't count the space needed to make streets to handle all those cars.

That would be about 230 acres. That would be close to 2/3 of the entire parcel that Dodger Stadium occupies. So 50,000 cars would pretty much require that there be no playing field. Or perhaps a field, but no seats.

And then you would have to hope that the freeways could handle the traffic load an additional 34,000 cars 81 times a year.

2007-12-20 12:18:18
78.   MC Safety
54 That says we are looking to trade Juan Pierre! Man, this Christmas just keeps getting better and better.

Mark my words, I will do something to champion the name Ned Coletti if he makes that happen.

2007-12-20 12:24:20
79.   Paul Scott
78 You will champion Coletti? He was the idiot that got Pierre in the first place. I mean, sure, fixing your own mistakes is important. It shows growth - or at least shows he is starting to listen to the right people. But "champion" him? If it works that way, he should spend a couple more years making the team worse, then did us out. Imagine what folks would be saying about him then!
2007-12-20 12:26:22
80.   dzzrtRatt
75 Then why threaten a suit? The libel law concerning public figures hasn't changed significantly in 44 years.

Besides, a public figure can win once in awhile. The Mitchell allegation against Clemens comes down to one witness, uncorroborated, with no physical or documentary evidence to back it up. Including it in the report might not constitute a "knowing falsehood," but it would seem to me that an allegation that flimsy constitutes "reckless disregard for the truth." Compared with the dossier Mitchell was able to compile on Gagne, Lo Duca and compared with the info developed on Bonds in "Game of Shadows," the standard of proof being used against Clemens is pretty low.

I've always liked Schilling, but I think he's not acknowledging there is legitimate room for doubt about Clemens' involvement.

2007-12-20 12:35:18
81.   ToyCannon
How could a player defend himself and prove their innocence if they were and wanted to? Don't tell me lie detectors since I've had experience with them and would never trust them as the definitive answer.
2007-12-20 12:36:15
82.   D4P
The most predictable and least convincing actions these players can take involve:

1. Issuing "statements" through attorneys
2. Expressing "outrage" through attorneys
3. Threatening lawsuits through attorneys

2007-12-20 12:36:17
83.   bhsportsguy
80 People go to jail on such evidence. Whenever it comes down to one word against another, its credibility that matters, also it does help Clemens cause that Pettite corroborated the story in his case and that the few that have talked after the report came out, have also "confessed."

Saying all that, suing may be the only option Clemens has because he cannot prove a negative, he has no tests, blood samples to bring out to prove that he didn't use PEDs.

This was not a criminal investigation and again, it probably just scratched the surface of who use PEDs but if you are in the report, you will be forever identified with this era.

2007-12-20 12:37:29
84.   Xeifrank
10. Depends on what kind of Chinese food you want and if you want it authentic or Americanized. If I am ever in the Pasadena area and looking for Chinese food, I will make the trek over to the Alhamba/San Gabriel/Monterey Park area 100% of the time.
vr, Xei
2007-12-20 12:38:45
85.   D4P
The public doesn't want to hear from players's attorneys. Whether they're innocent or not, the most effective thing players can do to profess their innocence is to address the media/public directly on their own behalf.

While standing in front of the world and "Saying I did not take PEDs" is not a sufficient condition to convince us of their innocence, it's probably a necessary one.

2007-12-20 12:40:09
86.   MC Safety
79 I was being a tad sarcastic.
2007-12-20 12:43:07
87.   Daniel Zappala
Jon, I really like your ranking system. I took the liberty of re-ordering the teams based on how many points they get for anyone average an above. The rest are all questions marks, because we don't know who can step up and perform. This gives us some sense of which teams are a little more sure about where they stand and which may be looking for help.

Here are the re-ordered rankings. "+" is for those who are average and above, "?" is for those who are a mystery or up and coming.

Mil 14 (+13 ?1)
Ari 16 (+12 ?4)
SnF 12 (+11 ?1)
Atl 13 (+10 ?3)
LAD 15 (+9 ?6)
SnD 13 (+9 ?4)
Chi 10 (+9 ?1)
Phi 10 (+9 ?1)
Col 11 (+6 ?5)
Cin 09 (+6 ?3)
Pit 06 (+5 ?1)
Hou 08 (+4 ?4)
NYM 11 (+3 ?8)
Stl 06 (+3 ?3)
Fla 05 (+0 ?5)
Was 03 (+0 ?3)

The big changes are that the Mets drop way down (which makes sense -- they're desperate for pitching) and the Dodgers are not as good as they seem. Colorado also has a lot of question marks.

Regarding the Dodgers, they're definitely relying on their big 3, but they have a lot to fall back on. The Brewers, Cubs, and Phillies will be really hurting if a pitcher or two goes down.

2007-12-20 12:47:13
88.   MC Safety
87 The Philly rotation looks pretty bad without a pitcher going down.
2007-12-20 12:51:55
89.   regfairfield
88 At least Hamels and Myers can go with anyone.
2007-12-20 12:53:33
90.   Daniel Zappala
88 Not based on the rankings. They're middle of the road. The Cubs are in the same boat, and the Rockies have a lot less they can count on, based on past performance (they just have a lot that might step up).
2007-12-20 12:53:59
91.   Bob Timmermann
The Phillies added Chad Durbin today.
2007-12-20 12:55:43
92.   regfairfield
90 I wouldn't trust any team whose rotation goes into replacement level territory at the number four slot. It will be real fun when people start getting hurt or Brett Myers goes to the pokey.
2007-12-20 12:56:38
93.   still bevens
83 Suing is only Clemens' best chance if he's innocent. If hes not, theres no way he sues. For now everything is in the court of public opinion where its all he said she said. If you get lawyers involved there will be depositions, document productions, etc. And if youre guilty its going to come out save the other side has terrible lawyers or youre a master at cover ups.
2007-12-20 12:59:11
94.   MC Safety
89 Not doubting that at all. Shawn Hill can can go with anyone. Im just saying after that it's pretty bad.
2007-12-20 13:02:47
95.   Daniel Zappala
92 I didn't say I thought they were particularly good. I was reserving "bad" for the lower third of the rankings, and I don't think they're that bad.

I agree that things will get bad if someone gets hurt -- that's what my comment at the end of 87 said.

2007-12-20 13:08:03
96.   MC Safety
94 Im not actually sure if Shawn Hill can actually perform a can can though.
2007-12-20 13:32:15
97.   underdog
New one from Dayn Perry on the wild, wild NL West:

Actually a pretty good article...

Excerpts from the Dodgers' section:
>>"GM Ned Colletti has given his team a bit of a makeover this winter, adding Joe Torre to the dugout and Andruw Jones to the outfield (Jones is a great bet to rebound at the plate and can still pick it in center). Both are sensible moves.

The addition of Hiroki Kuroda (go here and scroll down to see what they're saying over at about Kuroda's outlook) and the anticipated return of Jason Schmidt give the Dodgers uncommon depth in the rotation. As for the bullpen, it should remain a strength.

The offense, however, will be the key for the Dodgers. If they're to make up the necessary ground, then three things must happen: 1) Matt Kemp and James Loney must be in the lineup every day, 2) Third baseman Andy LaRoche must adapt to baseball at the highest level and 3) Juan Pierre must be deployed as nothing more than a fourth outfielder.

On the first point, it appears as the Dodgers will indeed play Kemp and Loney on a regular basis. That's essential, as they should wind up being the most productive bats in the L.A. lineup. In particular, Kemp could emerge as an All-Star in 2008. As for LaRoche, he tanked last season in the bigs, but his minor-league track record is quite impressive. The Dodgers badly need better production from third base, and that means the pressure is on LaRoche. For what it's worth, the aforementioned Bill James expects LaRoche in 2008 to hit .275 AVG/.367 OBP/.458 SLG. That's just what the Dodgers need." <<

2007-12-20 13:33:20
98.   underdog
(I like him plugging LaRoche, though I don't think it's fair to say he "tanked" in the majors. Not like he was given much play, either.)
2007-12-20 13:37:40
99.   MC Safety
Buster Olney suggests Blanton could be had for Carlos Gomez, Kevin Mulvey, and Aaron Heilman.

Kuroda keeps looking better and better.

2007-12-20 13:40:05
100.   KG16
80 , et al - Clemens threatens suit because that's what a lot of laymen (non-lawyers) do in these situations. Then they talk to a lawyer, realize that it's going to take two years, tens of thousands of dollars, little chance of recovery, and they learn about the discovery process.

Speaking on their own behalf can be tricky because it could open them up to liability (criminal or civil). And it's really not going to look good when they come out and say, "I didn't do it." and the first question is "If that's so, why didn't you testify before the Mitchell Commission?"

Dollars to donuts says that no law suits get filed over this.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-12-20 13:42:01
101.   Ken Noe
Link 97 + Link 52 = Ethier + Jones + Kemp - Pierre?
2007-12-20 13:43:54
102.   D4P
Regarding lawsuits and such, here's what I wrote back on 12/13:

I'm interested to see how accusees will respond. Will they proactively "issue statements" vehemently denying the accusations? If so, will they put teeth behind their denials by filing lawsuits? Will they refuse interviews or any other public statements for the next 10 years? Will they accept interviews, and issue their denials then? Or, will some of them actually come clean and apologize?

2007-12-20 13:50:49
103.   Ken Noe
From the Rangers' MLB site, Sullivan's story on Bradley: "The Rangers have had discussions with the Reds about center fielder Josh Hamilton and the Dodgers about their extra outfielders. The Rangers like Andre Ethier, but the Dodgers would rather move Juan Pierre, who is owed $36.5 million over the next four years."
2007-12-20 14:01:08
104.   Daniel Zappala
You may not want that press pass after all:

2007-12-20 14:07:10
105.   bhsportsguy
103 I would deal Pierre and cash (let's say $20M) for some non-roster minor leaguers.
2007-12-20 14:09:25
106.   Kevin Lewis

That is pretty hilarious.

2007-12-20 14:13:03
107.   MJW101
I think MLB may have a limit on the amount of $$$ that can change hands in a trade without the express permission of the Commissioner's office.
2007-12-20 14:19:42
108.   natepurcell

how much do we have to eat? 12 million?

2007-12-20 14:22:18
109.   Humma Kavula
107 The Commish gets to approve trades in which more than $1 million changes hands.
2007-12-20 14:24:16
110.   natepurcell
12 mil for the contract (3mil for 4 years), puts Pierre at a salary of 6.125 mil for the Rangers.

Is that worth it to them?

2007-12-20 14:25:20
111.   Bob Timmermann
I don't know what kind of denial a player named in the Mitchell Report could give that would satisfy the Teeming Masses. Nobody wants to listen to a denial. They just want a pound of flesh.
2007-12-20 14:27:59
112.   D4P
Do you feel sorry for the players?
2007-12-20 14:31:02
113.   overkill94
I know there is a certain percentage of every fan base that is good for some ridiculous trade ideas, but it's funny seeing it in print. From the Rangers' last mailbag:

"What are the chances of the Rangers going after the likes of Andrew Miller, who was recently traded to Florida? What if we traded Padilla to the Marlins for Miller and Carlos Martinez or Hanley Ramirez? I really think we need to dump Padilla and this seems like a good trade.
-- Chris J., Norman, Okla.

If general manager Jon Daniels can swing that trade, then he'll be Executive of the Year and the Marlins will be contracted. "

2007-12-20 14:32:00
114.   Jason in Canada
79 No, if Ned trades Pierre we have promised him an unconditional pardon. I believe I signed something here a few weeks back, and am more than willing to keep my end of the bargain.

I'll forget it ever even happened. (It might require some medication though)

2007-12-20 14:34:13
115.   natepurcell
That Olney Blurb....

Buster Olney heard that the Mets could acquire starter Joe Blanton from the A's if they'd agree to surrender Carlos Gomez, Aaron Heilman, and Kevin Mulvey. I wonder if Oakland would try Heilman in the rotation.

The A's would probably go with an outfield nucleus of Travis Buck in left, Gomez in center, and Carlos Gonzalez in right. That could make Nick Swisher - signed for five years through 2012 - expendable.

I don't care about the Blanton part, but the Nick Swishr part is interesting depending on whether some feel his true homerun talent is around 30 instead of 20.

2007-12-20 14:34:34
116.   Humma Kavula
110 Nate, who do you like from the Rangers' system?
2007-12-20 14:35:11
117.   Jason in Canada
105 & 107 How could Bud Selig NOT approve that trade. He loves Dodger Thoughts, and knows how much it would mean to us.
2007-12-20 14:35:42
118.   regfairfield
115 Why would they go with Buck instead of Swisher? The team needs someone with power.
2007-12-20 14:38:04
119.   Humma Kavula
117 Has Selig not approved a trade?

Also, Selig owes the Dodgers one for the whole Kyle Blair mess. If there is a trade and he blocks it...

2007-12-20 14:39:22
120.   bhsportsguy
107 See Mike Hampton, A-Rod as extreme examples.

If you are wondering, Russ Ortiz's contract remains the largest to be eaten (~$22M).

2007-12-20 14:41:45
121.   bhsportsguy
119 Here's what I still don't understand about Kyle Blair, if the Dodgers thought he wanted $1.2M, you could pick him at #39 overall, its not that much more above slot.

It remains a strange pick from the get go.

2007-12-20 14:45:58
122.   Humma Kavula
120 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both Hampton and A-Rod had major leaguers going back. Would Selig allow a trade of Pierre + cash for "no-name prospects?"
2007-12-20 14:51:19
123.   ToyCannon
Also if major league scouts thought he was worth 1st round slot money why wouldn't the Yankee's, Tigers, or RedSox have drafted him from rounds 2-5 and given him 1st round money?
2007-12-20 14:53:07
124.   ToyCannon
We would get something back. If any deal is cut with Texas I would hope Benoit is coming our way. He is what Ned hoped Proctor would be.

I'm with Jason. Full Amnesty until the next questionable move.

2007-12-20 14:59:17
125.   natepurcell
Pierre +12 mil for Benoit + a couple of low level minor league pitchers would work for me.
2007-12-20 15:01:31
126.   Eric Stephen
115 ,118
Wouldn't Swisher just play first? Or is Daric Barton slotted there?
2007-12-20 15:02:54
127.   Humma Kavula
124 /125 That deal will also require us to overlook the general rule of "whichever team acquired the middle reliever is the one that lost the trade."

Well, maybe not. Maybe Colletti DOES lose that trade, on its own terms... but lose this trade and win the larger battle? Yes, I think so.

Make it so. Full Amnesty!

2007-12-20 15:06:17
128.   regfairfield
126 I'm assuming Barton's there.
2007-12-20 15:07:02
129.   Eric Stephen
Count me in the Amnesty National club if Ned trades Pierre.

If JP is traded, this is my favorite offseason as a sports fan since the summer of 1996 when the Lakers signed Shaq shortly after trading Vlade to the Hornets for some high school kid.

2007-12-20 15:08:15
130.   Eric Stephen
Did you get my email by chance?
2007-12-20 15:09:37
131.   bhsportsguy
I agree with Paul Scott that trading Pierre in and by itself does not make up for acquiring him. But, by getting Jones, he certainly set up a situation where Pierre's value (yes he had value) was diminished because we have better corner outfielders than him on the team.

Pierre's values are his speed and durability. Both those are not as necessary with a healthy Furcal and now another guy who plays nearly as much in Andruw Jones.

Pierre is simply not a good guy to rotate since his offense consists of getting a high number of at-bats and correspondingly hitting a lot of singles and then stealing bases.

Unless we are still going after Bedard, I don't think Ethier (or Kemp) are going anywhere and right now, you have to pencil Young on the 25-man too. That just leaves Pierre in a tough spot to get enough time here to maximize his abilities.

I hope Ned finds a way to get the deal done.

2007-12-20 15:11:18
132.   Humma Kavula
129 Agreed.

As things stand now, I'm stuck in optimistic mode. I fear that the outfield will be Pierre-Jones-Kemp/Ethier, which is a problem for me.

With Pierre gone, this becomes a perfect off-season, and win or lose, next year will be fun to watch.

2007-12-20 15:11:19
133.   Wilbert Robinson
129 I would be part of the Conditional Amnesty Club. I try not to be committed to something unless I can change my mind about it.
2007-12-20 15:14:22
134.   Eric Stephen
If I had to guess -- and it would really only be a guess at this point -- I'd say Kemp and Andruw are locked in at RF & CF respectively, and that if there is any rotation, it will involve Ethier and Pierre.
2007-12-20 15:17:57
135.   natepurcell
The Rangers have a pretty deep system in terms of quantity, not so much top tier elite talent yet. Majority of their good prospects are all still really young.

With Salty, how much need do they have for Teagarden?

2007-12-20 15:18:54
136.   Humma Kavula
134 I hope you're right. I will believe it when I see it, though.

The part of me that roots for weird stuff to happen is also hoping this trade goes through, because it might be the best way for Pierre to continue getting at-bats and continue his quest for 3,000 hits.

If he makes it, I cannot wait for the "Juan Pierre: Hall of Famer?" debate. That will be awesome.

2007-12-20 15:19:53
137.   Humma Kavula
135 I was going to ask you about Teagarden. Sounds risky at this point, but maybe that's perfect for us. Pierre + $12 million for Teagarden?
2007-12-20 15:23:15
138.   Daniel Zappala
135 Nice. I said a few days ago that we needed to trade Pierre for a backup catcher. A catching prospect who can backup next year would be good.
2007-12-20 15:23:40
139.   natepurcell

I was going to say something like

Pierre, 12 mil, Stults for Benoit and Teagarden.

might not be enough on our end.

2007-12-20 15:23:43
140.   Linkmeister
61 Anybody who wants to kidnap Chris Peterson will have to come to Hawai'i to do so; he and his team are here for the Hawai'i Bowl. He spoke yesterday at a press conference for the two teams (East Carolina is the opponent, with Lou's son Skip Holtz as head coach).
2007-12-20 15:25:23
141.   natepurcell
Eh, Sickels has Teagarden as the Rangers best prospect at a B+.

Maybe Max Ramirez is more doable.

2007-12-20 15:25:48
142.   Eric Stephen
One of my friends is a huge Garret Anderson fan (he used to be a batboy for the Class A Palm Springs Angels when GA was there), and we had a similar discussion on the HOF worthiness of Anderson, who looked a few years ago like he had a decent shot at 3,000 hits.
2007-12-20 15:29:29
143.   MJW101
I am not a Pierre fan by any means, but if JP is traded then Furcal MUST be resigned/extended after 08 or we will not have a "legitimate" lead-off man.
2007-12-20 15:32:07
144.   natepurcell

They got Ramirez for Lofton so it would only fitting if they traded him in a package for Pierre.

2007-12-20 15:32:16
145.   Humma Kavula
143 Sure we do.

His name is Russell Martin, and he is an all-star catcher.

2007-12-20 15:34:56
146.   Indiana Jon
Reading the last thread reminded me of a game I went to in Chicago as a kid. I think it was about 1984. I remember it was before the lights and the game had to be stopped due to darkness. I only remember, or think I remember, vague details of the game, such as Larry Bowa being thrown out at the plate when it was still tied. I know the game went at least 14 innings, because I recall Harry Caray singing a second time in the 14th inning. My memory tells me their was a 21st inning and Harry sang again on day two, but that memory is a bit fuzzy. I do know, or think I know, that Fernando pinch hit in the game and I think played left field. I don't even remember who ended up winning the game, but I want to say the final was 2-1. Can anyone help me fill in the details on this game?
2007-12-20 15:37:13
147.   bhsportsguy
I think we have already signaled what we will do if Juan is sent away.

2007-12-20 15:37:53
148.   Eric Stephen
That's OK. We can just have the first six guys with an OBP of .350+ (assuming Hu & Abreu are at 2B & SS).
2007-12-20 15:37:58
149.   ToyCannon
As much as I want to buy into it, I think this is a writers dream and that the Texas GM has little interest in Juan Pierre.
He probably asked for Etheir and we said how about this guy who gets on base a lot and he said we'll get back to you and Ned is still waiting.
2007-12-20 15:38:09
150.   bhsportsguy
142 I'm still trying to figure out how Garrett Anderson is the 4th best fielding LF.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-12-20 15:39:02
151.   Eric Stephen
I was proud of my channeling of Roberta Flack in that thread.
2007-12-20 15:40:32
152.   MC Safety
144 That would be hilarious.
2007-12-20 15:43:04
153.   Indiana Jon
103 If Hamilton is really available, the Dodgers should look into what it would take to get him. He would be a significant improvement over Ethier and of course Pierre. I think we have what the Reds need, since they need just about everything.
2007-12-20 15:44:33
154.   Jim Hitchcock
146 My memory recalls the Dodgers winning that game.

My memory being what it is, Bob T will probably prove me wrong.

2007-12-20 15:46:21
155.   Indiana Jon
154 Mine does too, but it may have been just wishful thinking since it was such a great game.
2007-12-20 15:47:40
156.   Jim Hitchcock
154 One site has the Dodgers beating the Cubs, 6-5.

The same site has them winning 2-1, which is what I remember.

2007-12-20 15:52:20
157.   trainwreck
Trading Pierre would really help me counteract the depression I will have when Rick Neuheisel is named UCLA head coach.
2007-12-20 15:53:25
158.   bhsportsguy
157 Any guesses on the "mystery" coach?

I have to say things are much more happier here than on BRO right now.

2007-12-20 15:54:44
159.   trainwreck
I am thinking Tedford or small chance of Spurrier.

That mystery coach is my slight glimmer of hope.

2007-12-20 15:57:43
160.   Greg Brock
The mystery coach is Terry Donahue.
2007-12-20 15:57:49
161.   bhsportsguy
159 If Spurrier had a fit over South Carolina's admissions policy, there is no way he would come out to UCLA.

I don't think its Tedford either.

2007-12-20 15:59:37
162.   bhsportsguy
160 Some think its your guy, no not the Idaho guy or Leach but that Colorado guy.

They are not happy about that but that's one of many rumors.

It was also rumored that Jimmy Johnson was at UCLA today (why, who knows) but that seems like a non-starter.

2007-12-20 16:02:18
163.   trainwreck
I think he was just mad because it is so hard to get kids to come to South Carolina in general. At UCLA there are high standards, but he has a much a bigger base to recruit from and is in a much easier conference.

He is the gift that just keeps on giving.

2007-12-20 16:03:03
164.   Paul Scott
147 I, for one, never signed that. Bad as it was, Pierre is not even the worst thing Ned has done (those came in the DRays trades). Ned is a terrible GM and finally coming to his senses on one acquisition a year too late doesn't really fix anything.

Now, if Ned can manage to not merely trade Pierre, but sucker someone out of something valuable for him such that the total package ($55M, with $19M of sunk costs) a wash or a plus, then I'll reconsider. Really, Ned can actually make things worse with a trade. If we can't either 1. get something good for Pierre + Cash -or- 2. simply move Pierre with his contract then what is actually the best thing to do is keep Pierre and use him as an over-paid 4th OF.

2007-12-20 16:03:21
165.   Greg Brock
162 You cant refer to The Hawk as "That Colorado Guy"

The Hawk will find you and destroy everything and everyone you love.

Respect The Hawk, and you will be spared.

2007-12-20 16:03:59
166.   trainwreck
The guy who started the Johnson rumors is a liar. He went on the basketball board and said some really dumb things before.
2007-12-20 16:06:16
167.   surfing slug
146 I remember that game. Jerry Reuss finished the first game for the win, and then pitched the first 5 innings of the second game to get his second win of the day. It kind of helped him turn around his season.
2007-12-20 16:14:07
168.   bhsportsguy
165 Remember Hawk (Avery Brooks) in "Spenser for Hire"? If he is anything like that, he has my respect.
2007-12-20 16:35:37
169.   MJW101
Hawk and Captain Sisco were played by the same actor.
2007-12-20 17:16:36
170.   Im So Blue
146 Found it! August 17, 1982: Dodgers 2, Cubs 1, in 21 innings (Time of game: 6:10)

Cubs scored 1 in the 1st, Dodgers tied it up in the 2nd.
Bowa out at home in the 8th.
In the 20th Fernando played RF. After catching a fly ball hit by Bowa, Fernando switched places with Dusty Baker who was in LF.
Dodgers went ahead in the 21st on a sac fly. Fernando ended that inning by grounding out.
In the bottom of the 21st, Bob Welch replaced Fernando in LF. Dusty & Welch twice switched places in LF & RF during that inning.
Jerry Reuss pitched the last 4 innings for the win.
According to Retrosheet, the game was suspended at the end of the 17th inning.

Reuss pitched 5 innings in the next game for the win, 7-4.

2007-12-20 17:28:56
171.   FirstMohican
Anyone else notice FJM?
2007-12-20 17:31:45
172.   TheBigGrabowski
171 Yes, I just saw it, but I haven't read it yet.
2007-12-20 17:34:11
173.   Bob Timmermann
Ken Tremendous eased off a bit.
2007-12-20 17:36:57
174.   tjshere
171 Rats! They're not funny when they're goring the wrong ox.

Uh, sorry for comparing you to an ox, boss.

2007-12-20 17:38:08
175.   FirstMohican
I guess I must've missed it. What did he edit out?
2007-12-20 17:40:21
176.   Bob Timmermann
The "mystery" candidate for the UCLA position was Mike Belloti.

Perhaps Belloti was overwhelmed by the way UCLA shut down his Ducks team this year. Nobody else could do it!

2007-12-20 17:43:02
177.   regfairfield
Hopefully this will convert more people to the side of Ken Tremendous is a complete...and I really can't think of a rule one friendly way to end that sentence.
2007-12-20 17:46:23
178.   TheBigGrabowski
173 Yeah, there were no rule 1 violations in his post.

I think FJM is probably short on material this time of year, but it's a little funny he's posting something on someone who uses EqA and OPS+ quite frequently.

2007-12-20 17:54:28
179.   D4P
Wow, I'm really disappointed in FJM. For one thing, they apparently have no idea what DodgerThoughts is or who we are.

I'm sure I'll still read them, but my innocence has been lost.

2007-12-20 17:57:41
180.   Bob Timmermann
You lost your innocence when you were six years old and were complaining that your allowance from your parents didn't equate equitably to your contributions to the family.
2007-12-20 18:00:32
181.   D4P
I only had one parent.

Don't you feel like a big jerk right now...

2007-12-20 18:23:34
182.   Bob Timmermann
Easier to negotiate with.
2007-12-20 18:26:04
183.   D4P
But smaller payroll.
2007-12-20 18:37:57
184.   Greg Brock
Mike Bellotti would be nice.
2007-12-20 18:38:51
185.   Indiana Jon
170 Thanks! It's great to know after all these years that it was really Bowa and all that really happened. By far the best game I ever saw in person. One other strange thing I remember from that day. Our hot dog vendor was the exact same hot dog vendor we had a night or two before at the old Comiskey for a Yankees-White Sox game and he remembered us because we wore Dodger stuff to a Yankees game.
2007-12-20 18:48:13
186.   Jon Weisman
New post up top.

Alternate titles:




2007-12-20 18:50:09
187.   overkill94
Definitely the laziest FJM article I've seen them write. He doesn't seem to understand the aim of the article, instead taking potshots at the simplicity of it. Is he trying to say there's some sort of magical formula to calculate a team's depth?
2007-12-20 21:58:36
188.   Vishal
159 not a chance tedford leaves cal for ucla.

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