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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Everybody Lies
2008-02-19 12:20
by Jon Weisman

Chapter infinity in the long-running tome, Dodger Self-Sabotage, as told by shortstop Rafael Furcal to Tony Jackson of the Daily News:

"Hitting right-handed, I felt better. But left-handed, I couldn't stand on my ankle. But I didn't say anything because I wanted to keep playing. After the season, I got a lot of treatment before I started playing (in the Dominican Winter League), and that made me feel so good."

So, combining treatment with rest improved a player's physical condition and made him able to perform better. Fascinating.

Previously on Dodger Thoughts: "We Have Ways of Making You Go On the DL"

  • Baseball Prospectus subscribers can get a sneak peek at Will Carroll's team health ratings for the Dodgers. Nothing too surprising, except perhaps for Derek Lowe appearing in the most vulnerable category. Chad Billingsley also continues to be in that category, inexplicably (to me, anyway).

    On the up side, Andruw Jones, among others, has a green light.

  • This story by Paul Hagen in the Philadelphia Daily News reflects the fact that Joe Torre isn't the antidote to every off-field challenge.

    "Last season was very uncomfortable, especially with the bad start we had. There were a lot of questions and stories I had to address.

    "I'm sure it took its toll on me, but when you walk into the clubhouse and all of a sudden the players aren't sure what they should say, what they shouldn't say, your coaching staff, that made it doubly uncomfortable for me. I just think over the last few years it was gradually getting to the point of not being a helluva lot of fun. The baseball was still fun, but aside from that ..."

    Torre also indicated what he sees with his own eyes will have the final say in his decisions.

    He'll rely on scouting reports and his coaches, at least initially, when it comes to making moves.

    "Stats don't really tell you anything. You really have to watch these guys," he said. "You have to look and realize that you have a feel for what you want to do. Because numbers are important, but numbers don't tell you everything. Your eye has to tell you that."

    How come no one ever asks the follow-up question, "What are you seeing that isn't reflected in a player's statistics? How are hustle or intelligence or desire not accounted for, if in fact they have an impact on performance? Or are you just looking at the wrong stats?"

  • Chad Fonville in the house, at Stat of the Day. I think the game mentioned, in which he got four hits off the bench, was the birth of "Little Chad." It was his sixth game as a Dodger and first in which he reached base. He started and got three hits and a walk the next day.

  • If you think the Dodgers have an outfield glut, consider that the Angels have Vladimir Guerrero, Garret Anderson, Torii Hunter, Gary Matthews, Jr. and Juan Rivera to find playing time for. Rivera is getting some training at first base, and of course there's the designated hitter spot to fill, but the Angels also have Casey Kotchman, Kendry Morales and Robb Quinlan to account for.

  • The parents of former Dodger publicity director Steve Brener were both Holocaust survivors. Doug Krikorian of the Press-Telegram recounts their stories.

    Update: Odalis Perez has signed a non-guaranteed contract with Washington, Enrique Rojas of reports. "Odalis has worked extremely hard this winter and he is in top shape," Fitzgerald Astacio, a spokesman for Perez, told on Tuesday.

  • Comments (252)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2008-02-19 12:31:54
    1.   Eric Enders
    Ah, my DHL rant got LATed.
    Well, you can go back and read it if you hate DHL also.
    2008-02-19 12:35:03
    2.   Jon Weisman
    1 - Actually, if you come in before the NPUT, you have not been LATed.
    2008-02-19 12:36:12
    3.   Bob Timmermann
    I thought I was the first person to use a title based on "House."
    2008-02-19 12:41:47
    4.   Disabled List
    "Stats don't really tell you anything. You really have to watch these guys," he said. "You have to look and realize that you have a feel for what you want to do. Because numbers are important, but numbers don't tell you everything. Your eye has to tell you that."

    That quote made me a sad panda.

    2008-02-19 12:41:53
    5.   MC Safety
    Are we taking any bets on how many Phil Trani's referances are in Doug Krikorian's piece?
    2008-02-19 12:45:01
    6.   Jon Weisman
    3 - You lie.

    Actually, I was thinking I had used this very headline before, but I couldn't immediately find it.

    2008-02-19 12:45:33
    7.   Jon Weisman
    Odalis Perez to the Nationals:

    2008-02-19 12:47:13
    8.   regfairfield
    Is he now the number one starter?
    2008-02-19 12:48:41
    9.   madmac
    Ugghhh! I hate our Human Resource department. There is nothing human nor resourceful about it.
    2008-02-19 12:50:37
    10.   Eric Enders
    2 My post was at 12:24 and the new post was at 12:20. Of course, mine wasn't really worth reading anyway.

    Anyway, as someone who spent basically all of last season begging, pleading, demanding for Furcal to go on the DL because his stubbornness was hurting the team, this story irks me to no end. No, Raffy, I'm not impressed by how much of a gamer you are. I'm not impressed by you playing in pain. What I am is stunned by your stupidity, and regretful that your selfishness contributed to the Dodgers missing the playoffs, particularly when a more-than-able fill-in was available in Chin-Lung Hu.

    And the Dodgers are just as much to blame for that happening as Furcal. Even the most hard-line Colletti defenders would, I think, be hard-pressed to find a legitimate defense for Ned's lack of action re Furcal. The player works for the team, not the other way around. If you tell him to go on the DL, he has to go on the DL. All you have to do is grow a pair and tell him. The Dodgers clearly need to be more pro-active in protecting the players from their own stupidity. This is one area in which the Conte administration has been a complete failure so far.

    Of course, even if Furcal had admitted he was hurting, the Dodgers may have just accused him of lying about it.

    2008-02-19 12:56:37
    11.   cargill06
    man look at chad fonville's career numbers, he makes juan pierre look like miguel caberra
    2008-02-19 12:58:36
    12.   regfairfield
    10 I'm pretty sure the negative publicity the Dodgers would get for being anti-gamer would be a huge problem for this organization.
    2008-02-19 12:59:48
    13.   Eric Enders
    "How come no one ever asks the follow-up question, 'What are you seeing that isn't reflected in a player's statistics? How are hustle or intelligence or desire not accounted for, if in fact they have an impact on performance? Or are you just looking at the wrong stats?'"

    Because the question implies the manager doesn't know what he's talking about. And since a beat writer's ability to make a living depends on staying on the manager's good side, they aren't about to ask a question that insults the manager's intelligence.

    Questions like that can really only be asked by columnists, or, say, bloggers who moonlight for Credential time!

    2008-02-19 12:59:53
    14.   Eric Stephen
    I'm very excited for tomorrow's Pacific Division showdown in Phoenix. But I'm concerned that -- I never thought I'd say this -- the Suns might be too big for the Lakers.

    I'm guessing Turiaf will guard Shaq and Gasol will guard Amare, with Odom hanging around for help. Maybe I'm too worrisome; who knows how well Shaq will play. He's such a wild card right now.

    My guess is that Phoenix will have a huge energy boost from the Shaq-hungry crowd. Hopefully, the Lakers can overcome that and pull out a tough win. If the Lakers win tonight (home vs. Atlanta) and win tomorrow, both the Suns and Lakers will be tied atop the division after the game.

    It should be a nice showdown game.

    2008-02-19 13:01:38
    15.   Eric Enders
    12 I disagree. Anybody with eyes could see that Furcal wasn't right, and was stinking up the joint. It's not being anti-gamer so much as being anti-AAA-level-hitting.
    2008-02-19 13:04:16
    16.   bhsportsguy
    13 Why does that comment draw so much attention?

    Maybe he means that you can't judge a player on few games, week or month. The article doesn't imply that the man never looks at stats, it only implies that he is also going to have see these guys play too.

    Can we let the guy manage a few real games before starting to jump on it.

    2008-02-19 13:05:34
    17.   kngoworld
    14 Has it been announced that Shaq will be playing?
    2008-02-19 13:08:35
    18.   LogikReader

    If the Lakers win both games, the Lakers will be tied with the Suns, but the Lakers also own the tiebreaker, which puts the Lakers ahead.

    As for 17 Shaq will start per this article.

    I have my "Bob is Right" macro ready just in case.

    2008-02-19 13:08:56
    19.   El Lay Dave
    16 I was thinking the quote was oddly constructed or maybe Torre misspoke, because some of the sentences are at odds with one another, e.g., "don't tell you anything" vs. "don't tell you everything". I'm inclined to believe the intended message is that he doesn't intend to draw conclusions on stats alone and that seeing the players is an important component of decision-making.
    2008-02-19 13:09:48
    20.   madmac
    bhsportsguy is my favorite. I say that without a trace of sarcasm.
    2008-02-19 13:11:03
    21.   Eric Enders
    16 Fair point. It's best to judge Torre, and any manager or GM, by what he does rather than what he says.

    On the other hand, you have admit that what he says is (at least so far) rather depressing.

    2008-02-19 13:11:51
    22.   Eric Stephen

    "Shaq to make debut vs. Lakers"

    2008-02-19 13:11:56
    23.   El Lay Dave
    From Josh Rawitch's blog:
    Schmidt and Brazoban both threw without issue today, which is obviously a positive. Sandy Koufax was back out again today, this time working with Greg Miller, among others.

    There aren't any more details on that and, of course, often the next day is more telling, but it's better than bad news about Schmidt and Brazoban.

    2008-02-19 13:14:18
    24.   trainwreck
    I thought everybody hurts?
    2008-02-19 13:15:59
    25.   Disabled List
    In light of all the Vero Beach-bashing that's been going on by Plaschke and others, here's a re-post of Eric Neel's photo essay of Dodgertown from last year:

    Just a little reminder of what we're going to be losing.

    2008-02-19 13:16:32
    26.   LAT
    "Stats don't really tell you anything. . ."

    "Because numbers are important. . ."

    So which is it Joe? Are there some new fangled stats out there that don't use numbers?

    2008-02-19 13:17:03
    27.   Jon Weisman
    16 - My comment was less about Torre than about a widely voiced philosophy that has some logic flaws.

    23 - I love that Koufax is looking good this Spring - I just hope that he tells us if he's hurting.

    I'm only half-kidding.

    2008-02-19 13:17:17
    28.   Eric Stephen
    This might further delve into nitpickery, but it's mildly disturbing that Torre is saying his "eye has to tell him", yet up until very recently his stock answer for many players was that he hadn't yet seen them.

    That said, I'm not saying it's time to storm the castle with torches, but cutting down a few trees -- just in case -- might not be a bad idea.

    2008-02-19 13:17:31
    29.   El Lay Dave
    I think Josh Rawitch meets the SABR/Timmermann rule on this wording, or does he? (I'm keeping Eric Stephen's proposed macro at the ready):

    Longtime Seattle Mariners' broadcaster Dave Niehaus today was named the recipient of the Ford C. Frick Award, and will be inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame this summer.

    He's not elected, but he is inducted, right?

    2008-02-19 13:20:46
    30.   underdog
    I just love that Koufax is working with Greg Miller. Hope some magic (and health) rub off on Greg.

    Sounds like the Angels are a candidate to make a trade before the season. I hope the Dodgers offer Pierre to the Reds before the Angels off Gary Matthews.

    2008-02-19 13:23:53
    31.   underdog
    28 We can worry a little about Torre and statistics - though I think he has a pretty good track record as managers go - but, perhaps being even more nitpicky, I'm not clear why that conflicts? He says he likes to see players in action to judge them, and hadn't seen them in action yet. Or am I missing something? Either way, I hope he thinks stats are important, or we're in trouble. I'm pretty sure he doesn't disregard them, and that the coaches around him don't, either.
    2008-02-19 13:24:42
    32.   GoBears
    19. I certainly hope you're right, but I suspect you're too generous.

    "Stats don't really tell you anything."

    That sounds so old-school that it's almost a straw man.

    I thought Little was a scapegoat, and treated shoddily, but I was willing to accept the idea that the supposed chaos in the clubhouse was his responsibility to fix, and that he had to be replaced if he couldn't fix it.

    I was OK with the Torre idea for the sole reason that he's someone even the vets will have to respect. For that reason, he was a good, if expensive, choice. But I have no illusions at all that Torre will play the best players, regardless of PVL, and quotes like this one just drive that home.

    I think the only way this could happen would be if another DePodesta type were to hire a Manny Acta type. Go "old school" in either job, and be prepared for a lot of teeth-gnashing. The Dodgers are now decidedly old-school in both jobs.

    With luck, if Colletti can keep from blowing things up, and trading away youngish talent for aging space-fillers, this team will be like Torre's Yankees - so good that the inane over-use of PVLs (Sojo, Brosius, Cairo, Pierre, Nomar) won't hurt enough to matter.

    THAT, I think, is the optimistic scenario - not the delusion that Torre secretly believes in OPS.

    2008-02-19 13:27:18
    33.   Eric Stephen
    I just think he should have watched video or something about the players he didn't know about. It seems absurd that he didn't know much about Matt Kemp, for instance, before becoming manager.

    I'm willing to accept that "I haven't seen them yet" was just Torre's stock answer to give reporters.

    2008-02-19 13:28:12
    34.   Jacob L
    I think that Koufax is the wrong guy for health to rub off of, if you'll forgive the tortured syntax. Heck of a gamer, though, particularly in the 65 series. I think we'd be calling for Altson's head in this day and age. I think everybody knew he was hurting through much of his career, but I for one had no idea the extent until I read Jane Leavy's book.
    2008-02-19 13:28:16
    35.   Marty
    I'm already tired of Torre.
    2008-02-19 13:28:33
    36.   underdog
    Well, hey, in two years Don Mattingly could be our manager, so, there we are.
    2008-02-19 13:28:33
    37.   Bob Timmermann
    Swing and a miss by Josh Rawitch.

    Dave Niehaus's name will go on a trophy (or is it a plaque) that is kept in a separate part of the National Baseball Hall of Fame AND Museum in Cooperstown. It will be in the Museum, not the Hall of Fame.

    2008-02-19 13:28:48
    38.   JoeyP
    4--Flashbacks of Jim Tracy.

    Torre could never manage the Red Sox, at least thats for sure.

    2008-02-19 13:29:34
    39.   Eric Enders
    "Sandy Koufax was back out again today, this time working with Greg Miller, among others."

    This is tremendous news for me. Greg Miller right now is pretty much what Sandy Koufax was in 1958 or so. Working with him can only help.

    2008-02-19 13:30:59
    40.   Jacob L
    I think that Koufax is the wrong guy for health to rub off of, if you'll forgive the tortured syntax. Heck of a gamer, though, particularly in the 65 series. I think we'd be calling for Altson's head in this day and age. I think everybody knew he was hurting through much of his career, but I for one had no idea the extent until I read Jane Leavy's book.
    2008-02-19 13:31:48
    41.   cargill06
    man i have too much time on my hands today

    doesn't something look odd about tony abreu's line?

    2008-02-19 13:35:57
    42.   Jon Weisman
    I have never seen the show, but there is something for everyone on the next Dancing with the Stars. Contestants announced today:

    Priscilla Presley, Kristi Yamaguchi, Adam Carolla, Marlee Matlin, Shannon Elizabeth, Steve Guttenberg, Monica Seles, Penn Jillette, Mario, Jason Taylor, Cristian De La Fuente and Marissa Jaret Winokur.

    Who is the Kevin Bacon of this group?

    2008-02-19 13:38:54
    43.   Jon Weisman
    Ken Tremendous has a new baby:

    2008-02-19 13:39:00
    44.   cargill06
    41 i know it's possible, but not that minimal of a difference in that little PA's
    2008-02-19 13:39:03
    45.   Eric Stephen
    Who is the Kevin Bacon of this group?

    I'd guess Priscilla Presley.

    2008-02-19 13:39:29
    46.   LogikReader

    The Dolphins' Jason Taylor? There really is something for everyone!

    Penn Jillete: Kevin Bacon of the group

    2008-02-19 13:40:15
    47.   Eric Stephen
    41 ,44
    I'm not following you. What is so odd about Abreu's stats?
    2008-02-19 13:41:08
    48.   Jacob L
    I think that Koufax is the wrong guy for health to rub off of, if you'll forgive the tortured syntax. Heck of a gamer, though, particularly in the 65 series. I think we'd be calling for Altson's head in this day and age. I think everybody knew he was hurting through much of his career, but I for one had no idea the extent until I read Jane Leavy's book.
    2008-02-19 13:43:20
    49.   Jacob L
    My musings on Koufax were so important that they had to be posted 3 separate times. Seriously, I'm not sure what happened there.
    2008-02-19 13:43:52
    50.   Bob Timmermann
    Jacob L has set up a program that will send us the same comment over and over again. Sort of like the Crazy French Lady's radio message on "Lost."
    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2008-02-19 13:45:15
    51.   JMK
    16 I think the discomfort with Torre's quote, at least for me, lies in the possibility that Torre will make decisions based on what he sees in spring training. What if Pierre his .350 in the spring and steals a bunch of bases while Ethier struggles? Or what if Laroche strikes out looking a couple of times. Hard to look good while striking out looking. Seeing a handful of at-bat seems way less relevant to me than looking at the stats of about 1000 minor league at bats.
    2008-02-19 13:45:44
    52.   Eric Stephen
    40 ,48
    Dr. Rumack: "I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you."
    2008-02-19 13:46:38
    53.   Jon Weisman
    45 - The Kevin Bacon of the group doesn't have to be part of the group. It could be someone else that the closest links to all of them.

    48 - Running on auto-pilot, are we? :)

    2008-02-19 13:48:50
    54.   Bob Timmermann
    Time for me to start scouting out nursing homes for myself:

    2008-02-19 13:50:09
    55.   madmac
    ok, underdog and bh are both my favs.
    2008-02-19 13:50:29
    56.   silverwidow
    47 He's referring to Abreu's batting average being higher than his OBP.
    2008-02-19 13:51:13
    57.   Jon Weisman
    "Globetrotters 61, Lakers 59 -- 60 years ago today"

    2008-02-19 13:51:17
    58.   cargill06
    47 he has a - ISOd
    2008-02-19 13:51:39
    59.   cargill06
    56 ya just a simple rounding error
    2008-02-19 13:53:35
    60.   Eric Stephen
    Leslie Nielsen is connected directly to Presley, and has a 2nd level connection to Carolla, Matlin, Elizabeth, and Guttenberg.

    And he probably saw Seles play at the US Open once. :)

    2008-02-19 13:54:15
    61.   MC Safety
    28 Eric Stephen is my favorite. I say that without a trace of sarcasm.

    Nothing wrong with chopping a few trees down. I'll bring a rake unless my grandpa has a pitchfork I can use.

    2008-02-19 13:54:16
    62.   bhsportsguy
    Time does not heal all wounds

    Tonight on FSN West, after the Laker game, Jerry West is interviewed.

    Here is a quote about he has about something that always ate at him, losing.

    Q: Why did losing consume him so much?
    A: "Everyone wants to be recognized as a champion. Losing in the NBA finals was the ultimate scar ...something I'll never forget."

    "But there is an incredible joy in winning, it brings people together and unites cities."

    "I expected this incredible feeling to change all those [losing] years, but I'll never be able to forget them. They've left indelible scars."

    2008-02-19 13:55:35
    63.   Eric Stephen
    It might not be a rounding error. More likely, he had 1 HBP and 2 sac flies.
    2008-02-19 13:56:04
    64.   underdog
    Lunar eclipse tomorrow night! Could be beautiful. If the rain and clouds move on, that is.
    2008-02-19 13:56:57
    65.   Disabled List
    42 I'd rather be waterboarded than watch that.

    Steve Guttenberg???

    2008-02-19 13:58:50
    66.   LAT
    Sad but true. 80s are now the oldies. Speaking of oldies, I saw Aretha last Friday at Nokia. She is an oldie and a biggie. She was introduced as "The Diva of All Music." Take that Beyonce! Of course, the songs were great but the performance was awfully canned. Felt like she was going through the motions and long gone is her ability to dig down and get those long held notes. The highlight was when she came out in a Pink's Hotdog hat and handed out a 1/2 dozen hotdogs to the fans. Gloria Pink was in the audience. My daughter was one of the lucky ones to get a dog. She doesn't eat beef, but in the end she made an exception becasue "Dad, how many people can say they were given a Pink's hot dog by Aretha Franklin?" Can't argue with that kind of logic.
    2008-02-19 13:59:50
    67.   Eric Stephen
    Steve Guttenberg???

    May I direct you to the wonderful world of Joe Posnanski:

    2008-02-19 13:59:51
    68.   Eric Enders
    "Could be beautiful. If the rain and clouds move on, that is."

    Much like the 2008 Dodgers.

    2008-02-19 14:01:50
    69.   bhsportsguy
    62 West last played in an NBA Finals in 1973, his lifetime record in NBA Finals, 1-8, losing to the Celtics six times.

    His record as an executive was 8-5.

    2008-02-19 14:02:30
    70.   Bob Timmermann
    Who made Steve Guttenberg a star?

    (Jon is going to kill me now.)

    2008-02-19 14:02:40
    71.   underdog
    68 The end of last season was more like staring at a solar eclipse. It burns, it burns!


    65 Who holds back the electric car?
    Who makes Steve Guttenberg, a star?
    We do! We do!

    (Sorry, it's been a few weeks since my last Simpsons reference.)

    2008-02-19 14:02:53
    72.   cargill06
    63 good call.
    2008-02-19 14:02:56
    73.   underdog
    70 Kill both of us, you mean.
    2008-02-19 14:03:33
    74.   Bob Timmermann
    Jon has only one bullet.
    2008-02-19 14:05:58
    75.   MC Safety
    66 I am so bummed I missed Willie Nelson at Nokia. Any Willie Nelson fans?

    A Huell Howser and some cheese fries sounds so good right about now. Darn LAT had to bring up Pink's.

    2008-02-19 14:09:08
    76.   Eric Enders
    74 Jon only has one bullet left because he used five of them in the post up top.
    2008-02-19 14:09:18
    77.   MC Safety
    70 71 YES!
    2008-02-19 14:09:27
    78.   Frip
    Torre: "Because numbers are important, but numbers don't tell you everything..."

    I wish interviewers would start interrupting these guys and ask "what DO numbers tell you?" or "Why CAN'T they tell you everything?"

    2008-02-19 14:10:16
    79.   Kevin Lewis
    Sadly, I think Guttenberg is the biggest draw for me to start watching that show. Thanks a lot Joe.


    Let's just say I do not understand how they stay in business. Thank goodness Frys has had excellent customer service on their end.

    2008-02-19 14:14:39
    80.   Kevin Lewis

    Great. Now that song is in my head, and I can picture them all around the table.

    2008-02-19 14:14:52
    81.   Ken Noe
    My eye tells me that JP has no arm and no outfield corner power. My eye also tells me that Nomar's body sadly has failed him. I think/hope that Torre's eye tells similar stories.

    On a related point, I read on Fox Sports that Ethier is hitting the hide off the ball in Vero, and that Kent has yet to show up.

    2008-02-19 14:16:02
    82.   RIYank
    Hm, you guys didn't know this about Torre, huh?

    He's no worse than most managers, though, and although you'll remember every mistake he makes by going with his gut, as a matter of fact the total impact on the season will be small. No matter what NoMaas says.

    2008-02-19 14:18:42
    83.   Eric Stephen
    Plus, 4 of the NBA Finals losses by West as a player were in Game 7:

    1962: lost by 3 pts (Cousy dribbling out the clock)
    1966: 2 pts
    1969: 2 pts (Don Nelson's shot seemingly hitting the balloons in the ceiling then falling in)
    1970: Willis Freaking Reed

    2008-02-19 14:24:03
    84.   LogikReader

    The Lakers and the Brooklyn Dodgers certainly had that in common didn't they?

    2008-02-19 14:34:01
    85.   Dodgers49
    Assessing the 'Moneyball' Payoff

    >> Brown's retirement is a good time to look back at the Athletics' 2002 draft and see how the system worked. <<

    2008-02-19 14:35:21
    86.   MC Safety
    The latest post at FJM is hilarious.
    2008-02-19 14:37:42
    87.   regfairfield
    85 That article's a joke.
    2008-02-19 14:43:48
    88.   Dodgers49
    New Dodgers pitcher Kuroda decides to immerse himself, and his family, deep into L.A.

    2008-02-19 14:44:10
    89.   Eric Enders
    I don't see how Jeremy Brown's retirement is a victory for the old-timer scouts. He made it to the majors, which is a lot farther than they thought he'd make it.
    2008-02-19 14:45:46
    90.   regfairfield
    It also seems pretty cold to cheer for a guy retiring due to family reasons. If he stayed in baseball, I don't see why he couldn't at least become Adam Melhuse.
    2008-02-19 14:46:49
    91.   underdog
    86 A classic.

    >>"It's ridiculous," said fan Jay Ricker, 22. "Jeter is all-around awesome."

    "I agree," said Science, 424. "[bleep], that is a good argument. I might as well not exist. That's it. I'm taking 500 Darvocets. Humans, welcome your new overlord, Jay Ricker, 22. He is all-around awesome."<<

    2008-02-19 14:48:38
    92.   wireroom
    75 Yeah my girlfriend is kind of on a Red Headed Stranger kick these days. I have slowly been really getting into some old school country music.
    2008-02-19 14:48:49
    93.   underdog
    Who is Jeremy Brown, some sort of arabber?
    2008-02-19 14:53:16
    94.   Humma Kavula
    I would agree that the article in 85 is a joke.

    That said, the retirement of Brown, who was a lightning-rod figure, does seem to be a good time for a post-mortem on the A's 2002 draft.

    Moneyball is all about how the A's exploit market inefficiencies to get a leg up on the competition, and a key part of that is the draft. Chass points out that one big difference between the A's and the other teams is that the A's didn't chase any high-school talent in that draft, but he doesn't really explore the point.

    I would prefer to see a stats-based exploration of the A's vs. other teams, with, perhaps, an emphasis on the dollars paid to sign that pick. Were the A's exploiting a market inefficiency? Were they choosing from a lesser pool of talent? Is "making it to the majors" a fair judge of success at this point, or is there another criterion we should use?

    I don't know the answers to any of these questions, and I think a fair-minded approach to answering them would be fun to read.

    2008-02-19 14:57:55
    95.   Bob Timmermann
    The Dodgers losses in the World Series usually weren't of the heartbreaking variety. The heartbreaks were in the tiebreakers for the league or division. The Dodgers are 1-3 in those. And then there are seasons like 1942, when the Cardinals put on the greatest stretch run ever to past the Dodgers (even better than the Rockies last year because it was over a longer period) or 1950 (when the Dodgers blew a chance to force a tie with the Phillies) or 1982 or 1991.

    The Dodgers have lost three Game 7s in the World Series (in a seven game series that is): 1947 (5-2), 1952 (4-2), and 1956 (9-0).

    The Dodgers heartbreaks are of a different type than the Lakers.

    2008-02-19 14:59:26
    96.   regfairfield
    94 It's hard to say. The draft produced three big league regulars from the first round, and you can argue that both Swisher and Blanton have been above average, while the jury is still out on Teahen. Since I believe the average first round pick becomes a regular about 35% of the time (I could be very wrong here, I just remember reading that somewhere) the A's are already above the curve.

    And a big thing is the A's limited budget, they took Brown in the first round because they couldn't afford actual talent. The 2002 draft does seem seem very strong, but ahead of the A's Swisher pick, there's already six definate busts and two guys that are maybes. In the first round, the only pick that I think the A's would make differently now is they would have taken Cain instead of Blanton, but other than that, it's hard to call it anything but a success.

    2008-02-19 15:00:05
    97.   regfairfield
    They probably would also rather have Loney instead of one of their busts.
    2008-02-19 15:01:15
    98.   LogikReader

    Wow, speaking of heartbreak...

    Talk about time not healing all wounds!

    2008-02-19 15:03:14
    99.   Eric Enders
    97 At the time, though, Loney was just another expensive and risky high school pitcher.
    2008-02-19 15:05:33
    100.   Bob Timmermann
    regairfield is so angry about the Murray Chass article that he's broken a chair. He threw a Jeremy Bonderman autographed baseball at it.
    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2008-02-19 15:05:37
    101.   regfairfield
    99 Exactly, they never would have taken him, but in retrospect, it would have been a good idea to grab him instead of John McCurdy.
    2008-02-19 15:06:24
    102.   regfairfield
    You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.
    2008-02-19 15:06:39
    103.   Eric Enders
    Here's the first and supplemental rounds with signing bonuses.

    1. Pirates. Bryan Bullington, rhp
    4,000,000 IMG

    2. Devil Rays. B.J. Upton, ss
    4,600,000 Larry Reynolds

    3. Reds. Chris Gruler, rhp
    Reich, Katz, Landis

    4. Orioles. Adam Loewen, lhp
    Did not sign Michael Moye

    5. Expos. Clint Everts, rhp
    2,500,000 Larry Reynolds

    6. Royals. Zack Greinke, rhp
    2,475,000 SFX

    7. Brewers. Prince Fielder, 1b

    8. Tigers. Scott Moore, ss
    GAAMES/Don Mitchell

    9. Rockies. Jeff Francis, lhp
    Reich, Katz, Landis

    10. Rangers. Drew Meyer, ss
    1,875,000 SFX

    11. Marlins. Jeremy Hermida, of
    2,012,500 CSM/Lonnie Cooper

    12. Angels. Joe Saunders, lhp

    13. Padres. Khalil Greene, ss
    1,500,000 SFX

    14. Blue Jays. Russ Adams, ss
    CSM/Lonnie Cooper

    15. Mets. Scott Kazmir, lhp
    2,150,000 Jeff Moorad/Brian Peters

    16. Athletics. Nick Swisher, of
    1,780,000 Joe Bick

    17. Phillies. Cole Hamels, lhp
    2,000,000 John Boggs

    18. White Sox. Royce Ring, lhp
    John Boggs

    19. Dodgers. James Loney, 1b
    1,500,000 Octagon

    20. Twins. Denard Span, of
    1,700,000 Octagon

    21. Cubs. Bobby Brownlie, rhp
    Scott Boras

    22. Indians. Jeremy Guthrie, rhp
    3,000,000 Scott Boras

    23. Braves. Jeff Francoeur, of
    2,200,000 Steve Hammond

    24. Athletics. Joseph Blanton, rhp
    1,400,000 IMG

    25. Giants. Matt Cain, rhp
    1,375,000 Len Hardison/Kyle Rote Jr.

    26. Athletics. John McCurdy, ss
    1,375,000 Rick Oliver

    27. Diamondbacks. Sergio Santos, ss
    1,400,000 Joseph Longo

    28. Mariners. John Mayberry Jr., of
    Did not sign IMG

    29. Astros. Derick Grigsby, rhp
    1,125,000 Turner-Gary

    30. Athletics. Ben Fritz, rhp
    1,200,000 CSMG


    31. Dodgers. Greg Miller, lhp
    1,200,000 GAAMES/Don Mitchell

    32. Cubs. Luke Hagerty, lhp
    1,150,000 Reich, Katz, Landis

    33. Indians. Matt Whitney, 3b
    1,125,000 Jim Munsey

    34. Braves. Dan Meyer, lhp
    1,000,000 None

    35. Athletics. Jeremy Brown, c
    350,000 None

    36. Cubs. Chadd Blasko, rhp
    1,050,000 Scott Boras

    37. Athletics. Steve Obenchain, rhp
    Michael Moye

    38. Cubs. Matt Clanton, rhp
    875,000 GAAMES/Don Mitchell

    39. Athletics. Mark Teahen, 3b

    40. Reds. Mark Schramek, 3b
    200,000 Momentum Sports

    41. Indians. Micah Schilling, 2b
    915,000 Larry Reynolds

    2008-02-19 15:07:13
    104.   cargill06
    98 i didn't think that was possible
    2008-02-19 15:08:34
    105.   regfairfield
    103 Were'd you get that?
    2008-02-19 15:09:53
    106.   Eric Enders
    I guess the most interesting thing about 103 is that we got Loney for well under slot money, which I didn't remember. He wasn't considered an overdraft at the time, was he?
    2008-02-19 15:10:10
    107.   Eric Enders
    105 ba.
    2008-02-19 15:13:04
    108.   Eric Enders
    So looking at that list, I wonder if guys like Bobby Brownlie and Chad Blasko are still Boras clients, or if he dumps them once it becomes apparent they won't amount to anything?
    2008-02-19 15:14:22
    109.   Humma Kavula
    96 & 102 Thank you for the insight. Interesting stuff.

    My big question is -- did the A's philosophy work? Would they have been better off if they'd had a mix of college and high school players?

    I mean, we can look at that list and pick out successes that came after busts -- but that's always true. Piazza, par example. The question is: with the talent pool topping out at Swisher-Blanton-Teahen -- which we'll call "pretty good" -- was that the best that just about any team could expect, or should they have done better with the number of picks they had?

    2008-02-19 15:15:06
    110.   natepurcell

    He was considered a 2nd round pitching prospect. Not many teams looked at him as a hitter.

    2008-02-19 15:17:15
    111.   Humma Kavula
    Somebody should write "[Rule One]ball," the inside story of the Pittsburgh Pirates.
    2008-02-19 15:19:00
    112.   Eric Enders
    Here's the pre-draft scoop from BA:

    "19. Dodgers. Los Angeles will grab a high school position player here. Mayberry is a consensus better prospect over the other candidates (Span, Fielder, Whitney and Moore) who could be available. California high school lefthander Greg Miller is a possibility at No. 31 with the top sandwich pick. Projected Pick: John Mayberry Jr.
    29. Astros. Houston plays the draft as close to the vest as any club. Reports were circulating as the draft approached that the Astros were nearing an agreement with Texas high school lefthander James Loney. They've also had success with Nevada pitchers, so don't rule out Rasner or Jepsen. Short, hard-throwing righthanders also have worked for Houston, which could mean they'd go for Grigsby. Projected Pick: James Loney."

    2008-02-19 15:20:43
    113.   regfairfield
    109 I think any draft that produces three big league regulars has to be considered a success. You can look at that list and say things like "well, they should have picked McCann here" but if we go like that, every draft is botched.

    The Dodgers' 2002 draft is considered awesome, but until they pick up Russell Martin late, it's no more impressive than the A's, with only Loney, Broxton and Young before that. I'd probably take the A's haul ahead of that. Would the Dodgers have done better with the A's picks? Maybe, but you can't call what the A's did a failure.

    2008-02-19 15:28:44
    114.   Eric Enders
    So in that draft, we stole Loney from Baylor and Greg Miller from Cal. I don't know if Broxton had signed with a college.
    2008-02-19 15:29:41
    115.   natepurcell

    McDonald is from the 2002 draft too i think.

    2008-02-19 15:30:45
    116.   cargill06
    115 correct 11th round.
    2008-02-19 15:32:46
    117.   CanuckDodger
    106 -- Loney did sign for slot money, Eric. But some of the players around him, like Span, got over-slot money.
    2008-02-19 15:41:52
    118.   Ken Arneson
    109 This thread has the odds of success for each draft slot:

    Here are the odds of becoming a regular (as defined by a career WARP3 >= 20) for the 7 picks:

    Swisher (16): 32%
    Blanton (24): 23%
    McCurdy (26): 21%
    Fritz (30): 18%
    Brown (35): 11%
    Obenchain (37): 9%
    Teahen (39): 7%

    Each draft varies in quality, but in general, the quality starts to fall off quickly when you get to the end of the first round, where the A's have been drafting since 1999. If you look at the 2002 draft specifically, the quality falls off a cliff after Matt Cain was picked at 25. There are only three guys picked between #26 and the end of the supplemental round who have made the majors, and all three have the Oakland A's on their resume.

    2008-02-19 15:48:48
    119.   Eric Enders
    Man, I totally didn't remember this.

    "Having lost their first-round pick last year after signing free agent Andy Ashby, the Dodgers gambled in two ways, taking high school pitchers with their first six selections, followed by a couple of two-sport athletes. They took Cedric Benson, a raw outfielder with outstanding power, in the 12th round, but his future appears to be on the gridiron after an impressive freshman season as a running back at Texas."

    2008-02-19 15:53:37
    120.   cargill06
    119 wow that shocks me too. maybe we is regretting his career decision
    2008-02-19 15:56:24
    121.   cargill06
    119 .200/.375/.480 in 9 minor league games
    2008-02-19 15:57:39
    122.   trainwreck
    He may be a complete bust, but he still got number 4 overall pick money.
    2008-02-19 15:57:42
    123.   Lee Corbett
    One reason managers say the numbers don't tell you everything is that they are justifying their job. There has to be room for 'instinct' etc.

    Second reason is, they don't. For example, it is possible for a guy to have had tremendous minor league numbers and fail at the big leagues because he has a hole in his swing, and major league pitchers and catchers, being better at exploiting these holes, ruin the young player's confidence, and he does not adjust. There is a reason coaches like to see people play, so they can assess how, based on their experience of watching major league hitters succeed, these young guys are likely to go. Andy LaRoche could be such a guy.

    Statistics are clearly vitally important, and have changed the way everyone thinks about baseball. But to upbraid Torre for saying he will, in part, make decisions based on watching guys play is too cynical. Imagine he said the opposite: I have made my decisions already based on players' statistics. Think of how that affects the players. I know that over a course of a season, statistics explain a good deal of what went on, and most players most of the time perform close to what statistics say they will. But I think there is a bit of post hoc ergo propter hoc in some of this, and people assume that this was inevitable.

    If a manager completely mishandles the players, by, for example, announcing that before managing them he has decided based on statistics who is better, it is likely that team will not perform to their best. Motivation is a complex thing.

    2008-02-19 15:58:14
    124.   Jon Weisman
    119 - I can't believe you of all people don't remember that.
    2008-02-19 15:58:47
    125.   cargill06
    wow, it said he ran for 8,400 yards in HS and scored 15 TD's in 3 state championship games.
    2008-02-19 15:59:10
    126.   cargill06
    124 jon just 2 of us.
    2008-02-19 15:59:47
    127.   underdog
    Brad Penny says the Dodgers need Larry Bowa's fire:

    >>Los Angeles Dodgers pitching ace Brad Penny looks forward to watching new third base coach Larry Bowa get in somebody's face, even if it's his own.

    While Penny professes a great fondness for Grady Little, he believes the Dodgers would have been better off had the former Los Angeles manager or someone on his coaching staff come down harder on the players when mental mistakes were made.

    "We damn sure needed it last year. Fourth place," Penny said at the Dodgers' spring training facility. "You need somebody to push you. You know Bowa's doing it for your benefit. I loved watching him in Philly." <<

    What, The Windmill didn't provide enough fire for ya, Brad? Well, I guess he mostly provided wind.

    2008-02-19 16:00:24
    128.   Eric Enders
    "INDIAN RIVER COUNTY — County commissioners Tuesday agreed to a pair of deadlines for the Los Angeles Dodgers to meet so the county can proceed in seeking a new team to train at Dodgertown."

    "The National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association (NSSA) has named play-by-play broadcaster Russ Langer the 2007 Nevada Sportscaster of the Year. It marks the third time in the last five years that he has received this award in the state of Nevada (2003, 2005, 2007)."

    2008-02-19 16:00:44
    129.   CanuckDodger
    113 -- The problem with calling the A's 2002 draft a "success" is that you are comparing it to the average draft and using criteria that apply to the average draft. The A's had FOUR top 30 picks in 2002, and THREE 1st round supplemental picks. That's like bringing a shotgun to a turkey shoot. You better get AT LEAST three MLB players out of that historic bonanza of picks. And what did the A's get from the 2nd round and later? Nothing. And this is really the big problem with A's drafting that nobody talks about: for the last six years, once the 2nd round of the draft was over, the A's might as well have called it a day and stopped drafting. The A's have been incapable of getting anybody who even remotely resembles a prospect after the 2nd round, going back to 2002.

    Now, compare the A's 2002 draft to the Dodgers 2002 draft. The Dodgers only had a 1st round supplemental pick and an extra 2nd rounder as extra picks compared to the A's avalanche of extra top picks, and because of that the Dodgers spent only about $5 million in signing bonuses on their draft compared to the over $9 million spent by the A's on their draft. And look what the Dodgers got for nearly HALF the money the A's invested in the 2002 draft:

    Have Made It To The Majors And Become Fixtures:

    James Loney, 1st Round

    Jonathan Broxton, 2nd Round

    Russell Martin, 17th Round

    Have Made It to The Majors But Future TBD:

    Delwyn Young, 4th Round

    Eric Stults, 15th Round

    Prospects Who Will Like Get Their Chances In The Majors:

    Greg Miller, 1st Round Supplemental

    James McDonald, 11th Round

    Jarod Plummer, 26th Round (Now With Royals)

    Fringy Prospects Who MIGHT Get to The Majors:

    Zach Hammes, 2nd Round

    Mike Megrew, 5th Round (Now With Padres)

    2008-02-19 16:01:00
    130.   underdog
    123 Nicely said.
    2008-02-19 16:03:26
    131.   underdog
    Also in that Penny article:
    >>Penny said perceived clubhouse problems were blown out of proportion. That started when veteran second baseman Jeff Kent expressed frustration with some of the team's younger players during the late-season fade.

    "Jeff's never going to say anything because he doesn't like you," Penny said. "He's done it to me. He's doing it for my good. Everyone got along." <<

    2008-02-19 16:07:04
    132.   Eric Stephen
    It marks the third time in the last five years that [Langer] has received this award in the state of Nevada (2003, 2005, 2007)

    Russ Langer is the Bret Saberhagen of Nevada sportscasters.

    2008-02-19 16:14:41
    133.   Dodgers49
    But what if Beimel is like Sampson?

    >> Joe Torre said today that he has a pretty strong idea of whether he is going to allow Beimel to keep his long hair, but he wouldn't tell us until he tells Joe. Reading between the lines of that, it sounds like a trip to the barber is in Beimel's immediate future, but I could be wrong. <<

    2008-02-19 16:18:48
    134.   Eric Stephen
    I am the opposite of Abe Simpson when it comes to ballplayers' haircuts.

    Any discussion of Torre and the HOF has to include the atrocity of forcing Sal Fasano to shave! :)

    2008-02-19 16:22:42
    135.   Eric Enders
    I want to be a fly on the wall when Torre tells Jeff Kent he needs to shave at least every other day.
    2008-02-19 16:24:11
    136.   regfairfield
    Ain't no one ever won a championship looking like a hippie.

    Now Jeff Kent, there's a haircut you can set your watch to.

    2008-02-19 16:25:44
    137.   trainwreck
    Well, I will be officially annoyed with Joe if he does that. I always found those Yankee rules to be so pretentious.

    Let them do whatever they want with their hair. Who cares?

    2008-02-19 16:25:49
    138.   StolenMonkey86
    103 actually Loewen did sign, which is why he's with Baltimore now. it did take until May 26 of 2003 though.
    2008-02-19 16:27:04
    139.   Eric Enders
    136 There's at least one person who would agree with that.
    2008-02-19 16:27:12
    140.   trainwreck
    This is a sport filled with scratching and tobacco spitting.
    2008-02-19 16:29:38
    141.   Eric Enders
    In Torre's defense, we're trying to rid the sport of performance-enhancing drugs, and everybody knows the people with long hair are the drug users.

    Bet it's going to be painful for Beimel getting that broken heart tattoo removed.

    2008-02-19 16:30:53
    142.   ibleedbloo
    You can put me down as a Yes vote for the Clean Cut party. (is this a rule 5 violation?) If I have to shave everyday for work, I think they should have to as well.

    Gary Sheffield left the Dodgers a long time ago, and his exemption should have followed him out.

    2008-02-19 16:40:57
    143.   Jon Weisman
    126 - I just meant Eric because of his combined UT/Dodger interest.
    2008-02-19 16:45:13
    144.   Kevin Lewis

    Maybe if everyone had to shave for work, but I certainly don't. I honestly don't understand why this would be an issue. I guess if somehow the long hair was interfering with play (I don't know how that would happen), than maybe it would make sense...but what is the big deal with Beimel's hair. Come on, Joe.

    2008-02-19 16:45:17
    145.   Daniel Zappala
    I sit in the library for two hours every Tuesday. I never knew so many people came to a library to read the newspaper or a magazine.
    2008-02-19 16:46:06
    146.   Joe Pierre
    In regards to Furcal playing hurt all last year,(now I hope I put this right, I hope I don't get missunderstood)remember how we got him. Izturis got hurt went on the DL and that was the end of his Dodger days. When he came back there was no place to put him because Raffy had his old job.. I think some players try as hard as they can to stay off the DL because there is a chance somebody will come along and take their spot.. If they can manage to keep going they just keep going. Furcal might have had that on his mind. I don't know Schmidt's story. I know that can be dangerous and it's better if they don't do that.
    2008-02-19 16:46:25
    147.   Daniel Zappala
    If Kevin Mitchell had really long hair, I bet he would have lost the ball in there while playing left field.
    2008-02-19 16:47:41
    148.   trainwreck
    So Kent has not shown up yet?
    2008-02-19 16:49:54
    149.   Eric Enders
    146 Good point. The difference is, Furcal is good at baseball and Izturis is not.
    2008-02-19 16:55:34
    150.   Gen3Blue
    When you think about Koufax, you have to get the context of the times, and I think Jacob has some good points. One good way is to find someone almost on Sandy's level who managed to have a long healthful career.
    I use Bob Gibson. Two main differences between Gibby and Sandy are these.
    A)Gibson avoided pitching near 300 innings/per till later--in the late 60's.
    B) Gibsons K rate rarely got near 9/9 innings and strikeouts reguire a lot of pitches. Instead his hits/9 innings were always amazing.
    Sandy was a bit better, but with a bit of help could have lasted longer.
    Show/Hide Comments 151-200
    2008-02-19 16:59:26
    151.   Eric Enders
    I'm against the shaving/hair length code for a couple of reasons, one of which is that I have particularly sensitive skin on my neck which results in raw and bleeding skin when I shave. This is one of the reasons I generally wear a beard, and I've had bosses give me a hard time about it before, so I can sympathize. In fact, this is one of the reasons I no longer have a boss and intend to keep it that way.

    Also, I find ludicrous the whole societal notion that having long hair or facial hair is somehow morally inferior.

    2008-02-19 17:04:34
    152.   MC Safety
    I wish guys grew playoff beards all year.
    2008-02-19 17:05:58
    153.   Jon Weisman
    "All newsrooms are skittish these days, but the atmosphere at the Daily News today sounds beyond morose."

    2008-02-19 17:06:40
    154.   Eric Stephen
    I'm not a big hockey fan at all, but the playoff beards in the NHL are excellent.
    2008-02-19 17:07:40
    155.   CanuckDodger
    151 -- Not morally inferior, just slovenly.
    2008-02-19 17:08:14
    156.   Jon Weisman
    I go clean-shaven for the baseball season, then sport a fairly medicore beard-type substance during the offseason.
    2008-02-19 17:11:39
    157.   Marty
    I'm sporting a very gray Van Dyke at the moment.
    2008-02-19 17:12:46
    158.   Marty
    And fie on clean-shaven rules. That is for teams like the Reds.
    2008-02-19 17:14:16
    159.   Dodgers49
    When it comes to injuries I look at it this way. If a player has an injury that isn't obvious and lies about it I blame the player. If a player is obviously hurt, as was the case with Furcal, and doesn't go on the DL I blame management. In other words, if I'm the Dodgers' GM last season I place Furcal on the DL. Whether Furcal wanted to go on the DL or not wouldn't even be a consideration. It would be my decision.
    2008-02-19 17:17:23
    160.   trainwreck
    The Lakers would be insanely good if the Odom for Butler trade comes to fruition.
    2008-02-19 17:17:29
    161.   MC Safety
    154 Me too. Scott Neidermayer had a pretty nice one last year.
    2008-02-19 17:20:57
    162.   natepurcell


    2008-02-19 17:22:26
    163.   fanerman
    160 162 I've heard some very vague rumors about it. Is there any substance at all to them? I didn't think so...
    2008-02-19 17:23:55
    164.   trainwreck
    Who knows if there is any truth to them, but it makes sense for the Lakers to go after a small forward that is better at spreading the court. Odom will also have problems guarding some of the quicker small forwards out there.

    Ariza being out an extra two months adds to this.

    2008-02-19 17:24:03
    165.   TellMeTheScoreRickMonday
    Jon, sorry to be a stickler, but isn't "sneak peak" incorrectly spelled ("peek")? That mistake used to drive me nuts back in my dvd days.
    2008-02-19 17:29:35
    166.   Jon Weisman
    165 - Yep, bad typo.
    2008-02-19 17:30:17
    167.   Dodgers49
    Lakers beware. Shaq is running:

    >> "I'm going to be looking to get out like Randy Moss and Terrell Owens,'' <<

    ## He said his hip feels good but will play only about 20 minutes against the Lakers, D'Antoni said. O'Neal will be in the starting lineup. ##

    2008-02-19 17:41:41
    168.   Eric Enders
    Sneak peak = Cesar Izturis in 2004
    2008-02-19 17:44:49
    169.   Gen3Blue
    Achhh! Marie Callender still has gray hair pulled back in a bun. But her face has shed about 20 years. And the ingredient list has a lot of words that couldn't be read by anyone but a PHD Biochemist, and certainly
    not by a physician or nutritionist.
    2008-02-19 18:02:32
    170.   underdog
    169 But does she have a beard?
    2008-02-19 18:05:46
    171.   Eric Stephen
    The LA Times headline the day after the greatest USC-Notre Dame game of my lifetime* read "Leinart's Sneak Peak".

    *I was born after 1974 so I'm glad I didn't have to choose between those games.
    2008-02-19 18:16:31
    172.   Marty
    1964 was the greatest USC-Notre Dame game in my lifetime. 1966, the worst.
    2008-02-19 18:25:39
    173.   trainwreck
    Grizzly Adams had a beard.
    2008-02-19 18:40:59
    174.   Gen3Blue
    Now we are getting to a really important issues with the Dodgers. Facial Hair and hair length. I've got to admit I feel strongly about grooming regulations. I'm against them. And rooting for a west coast team I never thought I would have to deal with the issue.
    I'm with Marty, having a pretty gray goat.
    I recently met an old acquaintance with the same, and told him I thought it was time to shave clean and get that perhaps five year benefit in appearance. But he reminded me about the problems of shaving, particularly in the chin area. I was taken aback.

    Of course you must add to the calculation that ad often aired on ESPN-- Graybeard gets shot down by the hot date.

    It's really a complicated situation!

    2008-02-19 18:43:28
    175.   MC Safety
    173 Ansel did as well, iirc.
    2008-02-19 18:44:33
    176.   Eric Stephen
    Graybeard gets shot down by the hot date


    2008-02-19 18:48:16
    177.   natepurcell
    I am pro facial hair as well.

    Beards make the man....It's science.

    2008-02-19 19:06:16
    178.   Bluebleeder87
    I'm sporting a very gray Van Dyke at the moment.

    I'm sporting a peach fuss at the moment

    2008-02-19 19:07:39
    179.   Gen3Blue
    177 Amen

    I forgot that REEEE-jected..LOL.

    Still, I don't want a clean shave regulation
    for the D's. I want rugged ind.

    And practically speaking, Biemel and Ethier could risk massive loss of blood.

    2008-02-19 19:24:12
    180.   Icaros
    I still don't understand why Juan Pierre is saying he needs a better OBP this year when last year's was virtually identical to his 2006 OBP, which was good enough to merit a five-year contract.

    Why was last year disappointing to him when, save for 30 less slugging points, he had an identical or superior year to 2006, after which he became one of the top CFs on the (stupid) market?

    What changed?

    2008-02-19 19:32:46
    181.   Bob Timmermann
    The OBPs didn't get smaller, the bases did.
    2008-02-19 19:39:13
    182.   MC Safety
    The guy in the Dos Equis commercials has a pretty sweet beard.
    2008-02-19 19:40:38
    183.   CanuckDodger
    All of this talk about facial hair seems like a good time to make it clear why al-Qaeda REALLY hates the West. From the 1991 book "Dungeon, Fire and Sword: The Knights Templar In The Crusades":

    "Facial hair at that time was an important Middle Eastern symbol of virility and masculinity, and to an extent still is. Those today who do not emulate the beards of the Saudi Arabians and the Shiite Imams of Iran still cling to the bushy mustaches of Iraq, Syria, and Turkey. At the time of the Crusades, the smooth-faced Christians appeared feminine and disgraceful to their adversaries. One chronicler noted that when a Muslim emir brought his children to his tent to present to visiting Christian nobles, his little daughter burst into tears of terror and clung to her father. She had never seen grown men with hairlesss faces in all her life. To her, they looked weird and ugly. Her father agreed, but courtesy would prevent his expression of his opinion."

    2008-02-19 19:40:49
    184.   natepurcell
    i have a bad feeling in the Hawks game tonight.
    2008-02-19 19:40:56
    185.   Eric Stephen
    Time for payback tonight for the Lakers against the Hawks. The Lakers absolutely gave away the game in Atlanta on their recent mega road trip, one that could have easily finished 9-0.

    Still, it's hard to find fault with a 7-2 trip, an NBA record on such a long (continuous) trip.

    2008-02-19 19:41:15
    186.   natepurcell

    He's pretty much my idol.

    2008-02-19 19:41:40
    187.   natepurcell

    they have Bibby..who always kills the Lakers.

    2008-02-19 19:42:53
    188.   Eric Stephen
    The Hawks do look more imposing with Bibby, Joe Johnson, and Josh Smith.

    Also, maybe the Hawks should trade for Joe Smith so they could have the 3 most plain names in the NBA.

    2008-02-19 19:42:54
    189.   Indiana Jon
    I've worked for several years in a business that doesn't allow facial hair or long hair. In my profession, it somewhat makes sense. In baseball, it makes no sense.
    2008-02-19 19:47:08
    190.   Eric Stephen
    Bibby's teams are 16-26 (including playoffs) in his career against the Lakers. Just separating the Kings years though, Bibby is 15-16.

    He averages about 2 more points and half an assist less than his career totals against LA, and his shooting percentages are almost identical.

    2008-02-19 19:50:19
    191.   MC Safety
    186 He's pretty awesome. With that accent, it doesn't matter how gray your beard is.
    2008-02-19 19:50:47
    192.   Eric Stephen
    Bob Timmermann : Joakim Noah :: Eric Stephen : Mike Bibby
    2008-02-19 19:52:56
    193.   Eric Stephen
    186 ,191
    Who would win a fight: the Dos Equis most interesting man in the world guy, or "confidence is very sexy, don't you think?" cologne pitchman Jack Palance?
    2008-02-19 19:56:20
    194.   neuroboy002
    177 No matter how large of a beard Steve Phillips grows, I will never consider him wise or a man. But if he shaves, I will also not consider him clean. Looks can be deceiving.
    2008-02-19 20:00:11
    195.   natepurcell
    Odom's going to get 20 boards this game.
    2008-02-19 20:02:20
    196.   trainwreck
    Zach Galifianakis has the best beard.

    2008-02-19 20:06:00
    197.   Sam DC
    "Spinal Tap jokes, git yer Spinal Tap jokes. Step right up, don't be shy."

    2008-02-19 20:07:08
    198.   Gen3Blue
    ZG-- a good one.

    I may have to add Loney (to Biemel and Ethier) to those who would risk cuts trying to remove their stubble in one session. We may have to consult Troy from West Virginia.

    2008-02-19 20:15:25
    199.   Eric Stephen
    That would be great, and a career high for Odom as well. His high is 19, accomplished 4 times.

    In a related story, you can search through individual game logs on Not as good as the Play Index (yet), but pretty cool nonetheless.

    2008-02-19 20:23:42
    200.   natepurcell

    Looks like my worries were unwarranted.

    Lakers look sexy.

    Show/Hide Comments 201-250
    2008-02-19 20:35:20
    201.   Gen3Blue
    But what if 10 isn't enough. Well you've got 11 now don't you.

    RPI is way too close and I am already fearful of seeing a creeping darkness coming up my driveway.

    2008-02-19 20:36:57
    202.   LogikReader

    Nate, I think the Lakers might have a shot to win this one tonight.

    2008-02-19 20:38:17
    203.   Jon Weisman
    The Lakers used to hold the margin of victory record (162-99, I think), but they gave it up a few years back.
    2008-02-19 20:39:53
    204.   Icaros
    Watching the Lakers now, I fear injury on every play. It sucks.
    2008-02-19 20:41:41
    205.   Daniel Zappala
    Josh Childress leading the Hawks tonight!
    2008-02-19 20:42:20
    206.   Daniel Zappala
    Nate, please be really worried that the Dodgers aren't going to win the World Series this year.
    2008-02-19 20:43:24
    207.   Eric Stephen
    I need to look this up, but I believe a team got doubled up 124-59 like 10 years ago. I think it was Pacers/Blazers, but I don't remember who was the recipient of the beatdown.
    2008-02-19 20:43:36
    208.   Jon Weisman
    For fans of NBA +/-

    2008-02-19 20:44:38
    209.   Daniel Zappala
    197 I want that invisibility cloak so I can be invisible to laser beams. That means I can sneak into the Smithsonian to steal the Hope Diamond without setting off the alarms, right?
    2008-02-19 20:45:45
    210.   Eric Stephen
    2/27/98: Pacers 124, Blazers 59.

    2008-02-19 20:46:09
    211.   Icaros
    36 point halftime lead. Goodness.
    2008-02-19 20:47:00
    212.   natepurcell
    Maybe that feeling inside was actually that beef burrito from lunch.

    I always get anxiety and indigestion confused.

    2008-02-19 20:47:57
    213.   Eric Stephen
    Also, Cleveland defeated Miami 148-80 on 12/17/91 for the largest NBA margin ever.
    2008-02-19 20:50:29
    214.   Bob Timmermann
    Biggest margin of victory in NBA history is 68.

    And it's not by a team that you would have thought:

    2008-02-19 20:52:01
    215.   Bob Timmermann
    I guess it is who you expected since Eric posted the answer right above mine.
    2008-02-19 20:52:08
    216.   Daniel Zappala
    I think Bob has met his match.
    2008-02-19 20:53:42
    217.   Bob Timmermann
    I had to go to the bathroom!
    2008-02-19 20:54:31
    218.   Eric Stephen
    I'm shocked that nobody scored even 19 points in that game.
    2008-02-19 20:55:33
    219.   Eric Stephen
    I will not have the good name of Bob Timmermann sullied like that! :)
    2008-02-19 20:55:40
    220.   MC Safety
    215 I'm shocked. Have you been drinking Bob?
    2008-02-19 20:55:56
    221.   Bob Timmermann
    But 9 Cavs scored in double figures.
    2008-02-19 20:59:23
    222.   Daniel Zappala
    Old friend Glen Rice played for Miami in that game.
    2008-02-19 20:59:55
    223.   Dodgers49
    Dodgers Notes: Furcal ready for free-agent year

    >> The Dodgers also will open their early Minor League camp, having issued invitations to 32 of their top young players not yet on the 40-man roster.

    The most celebrated of the group is 19-year-old left-hander Clayton Kershaw, the top-rated player in the organization according to Baseball America. Although Kershaw was not invited to Major League camp, Torre said he'll be visiting before the spring is over.

    "We'll see him," Torre said. "We'll take a peek at a bullpen or get him in a game. He'll get exposure." <<

    2008-02-19 21:00:02
    224.   Icaros
    Bob disappointed me for the first and last time when he promised that the Dodgers would finish ahead of Arizona in 2005.
    2008-02-19 21:01:14
    225.   Gen3Blue
    Just to use the primaries as an analogy, hopefully not a violation. I heard a reporter say that someone wanted to win in the worst way. Well, the
    Giants did that for a decade and almost did win. Yes? No?
    2008-02-19 21:02:37
    226.   underdog
    220 "I'm shocked. Have you been drinking Bob? "

    Does Bob come on tap now or just from the bottle?


    Hey, has anyone ever tried to watch any ESPNU content online? I thought maybe I'd discovered a way to actually watch something on that channel, a channel that apparently no one with cable actually gets, but it's all broken. Oh well.

    2008-02-19 21:04:25
    227.   Bob Timmermann
    There's a guy at work who shows up in a Glen Rice jersey from time to time.
    2008-02-19 21:05:32
    228.   Bob Timmermann
    I actually get ESPNU on my cable system. It's reshowing the Purdue-IU game.
    2008-02-19 21:08:16
    229.   underdog
    228 What time should I be over on Friday night? (To watch the Utah State-UCSB Bracketbusters game.)

    No but seriously, why does Comcast not get it then? I've heard complaints from a lot of people nationally. Ah well.


    Hoo boy, boy howdy, yessir, the Lakers sure ain't playing hospitable hosts tonight.

    2008-02-19 21:09:48
    230.   Eric Stephen
    I always felt bad that Eddie Jones & Elden Campbell didn't win a championship with the Lakers. The young group of 1994-95 is probably my favorite non-title Laker team ever.
    2008-02-19 21:11:36
    231.   trainwreck
    I get it too and I live in the Bay Area.
    2008-02-19 21:14:17
    232.   Bob Timmermann
    Washington Post story about the 1991 Cavs-Heat game:
    The biggest blowout in NBA history had an innocent enough start Tuesday night at the Richfield Coliseum. The score was 0-0 at the opening tap. It was a six-point game early in the second quarter. And even when the Cleveland Cavaliers opened their lead over the Miami Heat to 18 early in the third quarter, Heat fans weren't overly concerned; their team is not among the league's elite and, anyway, NBA teams often rally from such a deficit.

    But what followed stunned the 10,487 in attendance - not to mention all 24 players and both head coaches. "I kept looking at the scoreboard and we were up by 30 points . . . 40 points . . . 50 points," said Brad Daugherty, the Cavaliers' center. "And our whole starting team is sitting on the bench. It was an amazing experience."

    In the end, it was Cavaliers 148, Heat 80. The result erased the record for winning margin set by the Los Angeles Lakers, who beat Golden State 162-99 on March 19, 1972.

    Miami, undoubtedly feeling some heat, rebounded to beat the Indiana Pacers, 118-112, last night.

    "It was incredible," Cavaliers Coach Lenny Wilkens said about the Tuesday game. That it was. While sitting on the bench, Heat rookie guard Steve Smith started playing with the figures, trying to figure it all out. "It was getting hard to calculate after a while," he said.

    From the third quarter on, the Cavs' margin expanded like hot air in a balloon. The inflated margin was secured when Cleveland outscored Miami 75-27 in the second half. This was made possible when Heat Coach Kevin Loughery pulled his five starters for good with 9:11 left in the third quarter and the Cavs up 81-55.

    Loughery already was upset that Cleveland had scored 73 first-half points. When it scored eight straight in the first three minutes of the third period, Loughery had seen enough.

    "I told the first group at halftime that they had three minutes to get it together," Loughery explained. "They just weren't getting the job done." However, the replacements were worse. After Alan Ogg, a 7-foot-1, third-string center, hoisted an awkward-looking, one-handed 17-footer that didn't come close, Loughery turned to two reporters on press row and inquired, "You guys wanna play?"

    Just before the end of the third period, with the Cavaliers up 106-67, a better suggestion came from a fan in the courtside seats: "Put the coaching staff in."

    Wilkens said he didn't realize his club had set a record until he looked at the box score after the game. "We certainly weren't going for it," he said. "I had no idea. All I knew was that our bench was playing great."

    No one from the Heat accused Wilkens or his players of running up the score. "We can't fault them," Heat guard Glen Rice said. "The way we played, they should've put it in our faces."

    At first, each Heat miss was followed by a Cavs layup or jumper. Then, it was three Cleveland baskets for every Miami basket. Wilkens soon emptied the Cavs' bench, but his reserves kept shooting - and hitting. Every Cleveland player scored, and each played at least 11 minutes. The Cavaliers' bench outscored the entire Heat team 86-80.

    "I was paying very close attention to the score," said guard Steve Kerr, the last Cleveland player to enter the game. "Everyone had gotten in the game . . . I'm thinking, `Hey, Coach, I think it's safe now.' Then I get out there and play the whole fourth quarter."

    In the 42-13 fourth quarter, Kerr made a three-pointer and a layup. His five points were the difference between the old blowout record and the new.

    2008-02-19 21:19:09
    233.   underdog
    231 Seriously?? What cable system? Man, I must be living in more of an outpost than I imagined. Stupid Comcast.

    So when does Mike Bibby join the Hawks? Oh wait, he's playing? Couldn't tell.

    Okay, I'm going to do some (mindless) work while watching Mr. Bean's Holiday (mindless entertainment). Buenos noches.

    2008-02-19 21:20:40
    234.   Eric Stephen
    Steve Kerr, the last Cleveland player to enter the game

    See, 12th men never amount to anything.

    2008-02-19 21:21:07
    235.   trainwreck
    I get Astound, which overall sucks. But when I ordered FSN West to get UCLA games, I also got ESPNU, NFL Channel, and Versus.
    2008-02-19 21:21:24
    236.   Eric Stephen
    I have it ESPNU as well. It was a recent edition to Time Warner (last few months I believe).
    2008-02-19 21:39:17
    237.   Bob Timmermann
    In the Lakers 162-99 win over Golden State on March 19, 1972, Gail Goodrich led the team in scoring with 30 points. Jim McMillian had 22 and John Trapp had 19.

    The Lakers broke 100 points in 81 of 82 games that year.

    2008-02-19 21:41:47
    238.   Bob Timmermann
    During college football season, ESPNU is guaranteed to have on a game that really nobody in their right mind wants to see.
    2008-02-19 21:44:24
    239.   trainwreck
    Various women's championship games are the best reason to watch ESPNU.

    It is too bad their recruiting information is terrible, because that would probably be the best part about the channel.

    2008-02-19 21:47:15
    240.   Marty
    What a great year 1972 was for the Lakers. Only 13 losses, and the only game I saw live was one of them. To the Knicks.
    2008-02-19 21:49:22
    241.   Bob Timmermann
    The commercial for Southwest features the actor who plays Senator Clay Davis on "The Wire." He does not get to utter his trademark line, which I am not allowed to repeat here.

    But the actor has a great delivery.

    2008-02-19 21:51:17
    242.   Bob Timmermann
    Marty has an alibi for January 21, 1972.
    2008-02-19 21:53:34
    243.   Eric Stephen
    The family of former Dodger Dick Loftus just crossed a name off their list.
    2008-02-19 22:03:51
    244.   Dodgers49
    N.B.A.'s Rules Provide a Payday for the Unretired

    >> McKie has yet to play a minute for the Grizzlies. It would be surprising if Van Horn plays for the Nets before his contract expires in June. They are virtual ghosts on their rosters, appearing in name only. <<

    2008-02-19 22:13:35
    245.   El Lay Dave
    203 237 I was in attendance at that game, the first NBA game I attended in person, at a mere eleven years old. (I had been to an ABA game before that.) We cheered when 12th man, and current Laker assistant coach, Jim Clemons (IIRC) scored, putting every Laker into the scoring column. And isn't that John Q. Trapp to you, sir?
    2008-02-19 22:21:15
    246.   berkowit28
    It has gone unnoticed here that Dodgerama has returned. You want to see today's - get it out of your system in the right way:

    2008-02-19 22:32:53
    247.   Bob Timmermann
    The boxscore in the LA Times shows Jim Cleamons with ZERO points in that game.
    2008-02-19 22:53:07
    248.   Joe Pierre
    To ERIC ENDER #149 Yes I agree. Furcal had HR power and that was an improvement. So we sort of lucked out. If Izzy didn't get hurt we would have never gotten Furcal.
    2008-02-20 01:18:50
    249.   Eric Enders
    242 That's Wendell Pierce, who also has a quite memorable role in "Get on the Bus."

    I get ESPNU on cable also. I've even watched it a few times.

    Even more obscurely, I get CSTV, which I'm guessing almost nobody does. It means I get to watch Memphis play every once in a while.

    2008-02-20 01:20:30
    250.   Eric Enders
    On second thought, you said Clay Davis, not Bunk. Which means 249 is literally bunk, and should be ignored.
    Show/Hide Comments 251-300
    2008-02-20 01:22:17
    251.   Eric Enders
    And now I get why Bob couldn't say the signature line.
    2008-02-20 07:37:59
    252.   Jon Weisman
    New post up top.

    Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.