Got LAT'd...

I could see the Angels making a run at Sabathia, especially with Garland's contract expiring after 2008.

...which means I left Garland off the FA list for next year. He'll be 29 in 2009, and his 2008 will go a long way in determining his rank on the FA market.

Last 3 years:
Lowe: 639.1 IP, 118 ERA+
Garland: 640.2 IP, 114 ERA+

Given that Garland is 7 years younger than Lowe, he is more likely to be coveted than Lowe. Still, my point stands that Lowe will garner a lot of attention next offseason.

1
I could see Lowe getting 3/42 from someone if he has a decent season this year.

My offseason for the Dodgers would have us sign either Furcal or Orlando Hudson and then fill in Hu at the other position. ++ defense at second and short is something we have not seen since the Izturis/Cora tandem. Throw in Jones and Martin and we could be the best team up the middle in the NL.

Then, I would like to see Garland or Lowe come back as opposed to Sabbathia. It is a risk not to go after the best guy on the market, but I would want to save some of the money for Martin/Brox/Ethier extensions.

MC- i hope you were joking, even if you were it was in bad taste.

1 fair to say laa got the better end of that garland deal?

1
If Lowe pulls down a 2004 season, will your point wobble?

2 completely agree, didn't realize o-dog was a FA after this year?

I'm sure we will "show interest" in Sabathia next offseason--assuming he isn't extended--but the price will be astronomical. Santana has already set the market at 6y/137.5m, and even though part of that sum essentially offsets his relatively cheap '08 salary, Sabathia's contract is certain to be in the same neighborhood.

Just as with A-Rod, I really hate entering these bidding wars in which the winner inevitably makes a huge bet in which the entire direction of the franchise hinges on one player.

I think it's nice to think about Sabathia atop our 2009 rotation, but realistically, I view it as a longshot.

If Schmidt is looking good and Penny has a great first half, do we trade Penny? Or is that just completely ridiculous?

3 It was in bad taste, sorry. Just a few observations.

Presented without commentary: Mark Hendrickson is one of four candidates to be the Marlins' opening day starter.

9

Best of luck to him

7 Depending on our return, completely ridiculous. I have no faith in Ned when it comes to trading players, let alone good ones.

7 if penny is having a decent year and schmidt looking good, i'd consider that, but what are you going to trade for? we don't need an OF, SS, 2B, 1B, or C the only possibility would be a offensive upgrade at 3B if LaRoche isn't producing which would be a bad idea, you need to give LaRoche some time and not rush to judgement.

Just so Jon's feelings aren't hurt:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3dmwky

Or were you thinking of the Canadian TV show with the title character as a leprechaun?

11 12

Yea, just thinking out loud. So, I imagine whether or not we extend Penny would depend on how his second half goes this year.

12 i meant only if you trade penny at his highest value, since most people agree he is a bad year waiting to happen.

6
I personally would prefer to go short with someone like Sheets, Burnett (can opt out after 2008), or Pedro. It is one thing I really like about Colletti.

I think we have a good core of young pitching coming up through the ranks and a bunch of guys who have a chance to pull a Rich Hill and slot in to the 2-hole (Miller, McDonald, Elbert, Kuo).

4
If Lowe puts up a 90 ERA+, then wins the clinching game of 3 playoff series, I'll take that!

And my point will stand. :)

15
Most people look at his peripherals and say that, but that was said two years ago. Based on his numbers I would have to agree, but he just seems too valuable to trade right now. On the open market he is a $15 mil pitcher.

Yeah, the only way you'd trade Penny is if you get Sabathia in return. Or if Schmidt is fully recovered and/or Kershaw is already an above average major league pitcher.

17
Yes it will, and it will stand taller then all the other points.

Hey didn't he leave as a free agent after all those heroics? Could we ask for anything more?

16
I still have hope that Sheets can put together a healthy year. It is kind of a catch-22 with him. If he is healthy he will end up getting a monster contract. If he fails to make 20 starts again then you probably don't want him.

13 - Actually, I was only thinking of alliteration. And trying to get Bennigan's out of my head.

I hadn't heard that song before seeing an episode of MASH in which Colonel Potter flirts with a woman officer his own age and they sing it after a picnic. (Wasn't there like three episodes where Potter almost cheats?)

Anyway... congrats to Ellen Harrigan!

aitch
eh
double-are
eye
gee
eh
en

spells harrigan!

Who is the woman who will spend or will even lend?
Harrigan, That's Me!
Who is your friend when you find that you need a friend?
Harrigan, That's Me!
...
Who is the woman helps a man every time she can?
Harrigan, That's Me!
H- A- double-R I- G- A- N- spells Harrigan...

38 seconds!

I think Penny won't be a Dodger beyond this contract and thinking about trading him this spring or summer is forward thinking.

1. He's coming off a career year, his value is about as high as it can be.
2. He's had injuries in the past.
3. He's relatively affordable at 8 mil for 08 plus a team option on 09.
4. He'll want a big contract if he's healthy and productive, a contract beyond the 3-4 years we'd want to go.
5. We've been burned on Odalis, Carlos Perez, Dreifort, Ishii, and Schmidt. I don't think we throw money at Penny for the length and type of contract he would want.
6. If we pick up his option for 09 after a solid year in 08, he'll be upset at not getting more of his true value than the option year we'll be paying. That is not a fun situation to imagine, especially with a guy who can blow steam like Brad.

If we have a healthy Kuo and Schmidt this spring, we can consider moving Penny with Kershaw in the wings.

Say the Indians become sellers either now or in July. Would you trade Penny and Hu for C.C. if he agrees to an extension?

27 In a heart beat, but I see no reason why the Indians would be sellers this year.

27 7. Penny was just quoted saying he doesn't need to break the bank with his next contract.

I'm strongly inclined to re-sign a proven player who wants to be here and is willing to offer something resembling a discount.

Keep in mind Penny's perhiperals disintegrated last year, so this is definately a wait and see year. We're going to pick up his option no matter what, but I'd be very hesitant to sign a long term contract before mid 2009.

Ramon Martinez has an opt-out clause!

http://tinyurl.com/2hw35w

30 But you're not worried about CC Sabathia's peripherals declining either? Penny's a year and a half older, which I guess means something when we're talking about pitchers, but even though I like CC I worry about his decline/injury issues, too.

13 Heh, I remember watching that show when I was a lad.

31 Do it, Ramon! Hopefully he'll either be in Vegas or on another team before April, no offense to him.

32 Sabathia's got better last year. Of course he'll decline eventually, but he has much further to fall than Penny.

I don't see why Cleveland would shop Sabathia. Their best chance of maximizing value from him is probably trying to win the World Series this year and then taking two draft picks.

31 It makes perfect sense. If a major league team wants him, we wouldn't want to block him. We want him as insurance and aren't in a position to guarantee him a roster spot. Barring injury, he doesn't fit into our 25 man squad.

Tony Jackson is already tired:

http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/archives/2008/02/that_was_one_lo.html

38
"... and let me tell you about these Dodgertown elevators."

31
I think those clauses are relatively common among crappy veterans. That's how we got Shea Hillenbrand last year, in a slightly different situation.

Stanford made official its plan to eliminate tuition for families earning below $100,000.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/20/pf/college/stanford_tuition.ap/index.htm

It's quite something that we're heading toward a world where people could be spending more on their kids' preschool than on their college education.

27 We've been burned on Odalis, Carlos Perez, Dreifort, Ishii, and Schmidt. I don't think we throw money at Penny for the length and type of contract he would want

I agree with your overall premise, but I just don't agree with avoiding the FA pitching market just because we've been burned before. The key is to avoid signing crap. We didn't get burned on Lowe.

Also, Penny has a better track record of all those pitchers with the exception of Schmidt, who is a different case since he's been hurt.

41
Damn! 14 years too late.

38 You'd think he was actually participating in that three and a half hour workout.

41

OHH!! The first time I read that post I thought Stanford was simply not going to offer tuition to <100k families. It's the exact opposite.

Stanford offers the tuition for <100k families for free! This is a great story.

---

That Preschool line reminds me of the show "The New Adventures of Old Christine." You know how the little kid goes to a private school? Something about private school doesn't sit well with me, but the characters on the show make it rather humorous.

I can't imagine the Mar Vista public school system is that bad, anyway, can you?

41 Coincidentally, I was just reading about this too. The Stanford Daily has more details:

http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/20/universityAnnouncesBoldAidPolicy

I remember that back when I was deciding between colleges, Stanford ended up being cheaper for me than UC Berkeley.

Continuing from the last thread, Oliver Perez will also be a FA next year. He put up decent numbers last year and is still only 26 this year. Signing him might be as a steal as you could get from a Boras client.

47
Agreed. 2008 will go a long way in determining whether Perez can pull a Pavano-like contract from some team.

47 They don't make enough Pepcid for me to watch another O. Perez take the mound every five days in Dodger blue.

I'd rather paint a number on the pitching machine and wheel it out there.

Let the Mets sign and overpay him, then they can pay for him to pitch for Kansas City before he gets a minor league invite with Washington.

New piece on SI.com on Joe Torre and the Dodgers:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/lee_jenkins/02/20/jenkins.torre/

"Signing him might be BIG as a steal as you could get from a Boras client."

Meant to put that in there.

49 But Perez's walk-rate has dropped every year since 2005.

BB/9
2005 6.12
2006 5.63
2007 4.02

"Signing him might be BIG as a steal as you could get from a Boras client."

I think signing Oliver Perez is as big a steal as a blind man stealing reading glasses from the 99 cent store.

NOTE TO MLB WORLD: THE DODGERS DON'T SIGN LEFTY PITCHERS NAMED PEREZ ANYMORE!

29

If that is the case and Penny is able to adjust to have a better second half, than I would be all for it.

just the question is, if you trade penny what do you trade him for? it's pretty reasonable to assume the indians will not shop sabathia unless they underachieve horribly

I'm still on the Stanford admissions waiting list.

One day I will move up to the top and get the thick envelope at home.

While I wait, I'm going to apply for Packers season tickets.

Stanford rejected me.

56 I was on that list too. By the time they told me to stop waiting and come on down, I was already enrolled elsewhere.

So if I understand correctly, tuition will be zero if you make $99,999, and $36,000 if you make $100,001. Seems like that would give families in the $101,000 range incentive to hire creative accountants, and families in the $99,000 range incentive to make sure no promotions come through.

58 - Perhaps, but I'd be confident that it's a slighting scale above $100,000.

Sorry - that's a funny typo! I meant "sliding scale."

I was going to go to Stanford to play football in 1982, specifically QB, but they had some guy there named El-something.

60 depending on the scale it could be slighting

60 Or Freudian slip?

46. Daniel Zappala

I remember that back when I was deciding between colleges, Stanford ended up being cheaper for me than UC Berkeley.

You get what you pay for. :)

Let's look at the likely 2009 payroll to see where the Dodgers stand (I'm making some assumptions, but bear with me):

Starters
C - Martin - $3.5m (estimated as "Super Two" arb)
1B - Loney - $500k (3rd year)
2B - Abreu - $400k (2nd year)
SS - Hu - $400k (rookie)
3B - LaRoche - $400k (2nd year)
LF - Ethier - $2.5m (estimated as "Super Two" arb)
CF - Andruw - $17.1m
RF - Kemp - $500k (3rd year)
Total Starters - $25.3m

Bench
OF - Pierre - $10m
OF - Repko - $1m (2nd year arb)
C - John Q. Backstop - $1m
1B - Mark Sweeney Type - $1m
IF - Lucille II Type - $1m
Total Bench - $14m

Starting Pitching
Penny - $9.25m (option picked up -- I've seen this reported as low as $8.75m)
Billingsley - $500k (3rd year)
Kuroda - $10m
Schmidt - $15.5m
Kuo - $500k (3rd year)
Total Starting Pitching - $37.75m

Bullpen
Saito - $6m (1st year arb eligible)
Broxton - $2m (1st year arb eligible)
Proctor - $2m (2nd year arb eligible)
Brazoban - $1.5m (2nd year arb eligible)
Meloan - $400k (2nd year)
Seanez Type - $1m
McDonald Type - $400k
Total Bullpen - $12.9m

Chaff
Nomar - $1.25m (part of deferred signing bonus)
Loaiza - $375k (optioni buyout)
Furcal - $4m (deferred signing bonus)
Total Chaff - $5.625m

Total 2009 Payroll (estimated) - $95.575m

The Dodgers could certainly afford Sabathia or extending Furcal, but it's not like we have a windfall of cash to spend.

61
Three people from my senior class got accepted to Stanford. I had a higher GPA and SAT scores than all of them.

Sadly, I was not an accomplished offensive lineman like one of my classmates. Nor was I good at women's basketball. Nor was I student body president.

First, congrats to Ms. Harrigan on her promotion.

Poll question No, 1: Part 1, Who of the following will be a GM first, Logan White, DeJon Watson or Kim Ng. Part 2, Who of the above-mentioned threesome is the most likely to be the Dodgers next GM?

Poll question No. 2: Should Kobe Bryant take his doctor's advice and adhere to management's wishes and have his surgery now?

Get your Beijing Dodger tickets!

http://www.emma.cn/event_763.html

66 - And yet you could have been all three.

66 I think you'd make a great women's basketball player.

65 please fill me in on lucille II and CHAFF

66 Outside of my very small circle of friends, I don't know where anyone went to college. I believe I know one person who went to Stanford.

Whoever went to Stanford or any other top school had a better GPA and SAT score than me. My grades were good enough to get in to the local schools though for the one I attended, it took a personal interview to get past admissions.

55
I am NOT behind a deal like this, but a deal like that would have to be something like Loney and Penny for Texeria pending an extension.

65 You forgot to include Lowe in the "chaff."

67
Question One
Part 1: Logan White
Part 2: Logan White

Question Two
NO!

71

Lucille II - a Ramon Martinez aka veteran utility infield type.

CHAFF - are the contractual signing bonuses or buy outs.

67
#1: Part 1 - Kim Ng; Part 2 - Logan White

#2: No

68 I have a lot of flier miles banked and thought about a trip. I really enjoyed Beijing in April '97 for a week.

I think I'd have a hard time convincing the wife to let me go to see practice baseball. If my children were older, it would be a family trip for spring break.

Jon, are you considering going?

76 ok i figured lucille II meant that, but who came up wiht the name and for what reason. and i guess i have the same question for chaff

74
Lowe is not under contract for 2009, nor does he have an option to be bought out.

75 I don't see Logan White being the next GM for the Dodgers, I think for many reasons the Dodgers would love to promote Watson or Ng to the job.

"oh right, like I would risk spilling something on this six thousand dollar suit, come on!"

The two people from my high school who went to Stanford on athletic scholarships rarely played in their four years there.

But at least they got a good education for free.

I don't mean to sound all Alan Bakke.

Lucille II comes from the TV show Arrested Development. There are 2 Lucille characters. So one is referred to as Lucille II.

Similarly, Ramon Martinez (utility infielder) is the second Ramon Martinez to play for the Dodgers (in recent memory anyway), the first being Pedro's older brother. Thusly, Ramon Martinez (utility infielder) has been bequeathed the nickname "Lucille II."

79
Chaff = trivial or worthless matter; extra stuff.

73 that's what i figured, but what starter plus penny would be worth getting rid of because you can get a great player in return? i can't see a type of trade like that happening

83 Not to be too technical but Bakke wouldn't have applied since Stanford is a private institution though they probably have some government grants which gives the Feds some jurisidiction.

maybe a penny/ethier package? for rios or wells that's all i can think of

The experience with my high school class is similar to Bob's. The Stanford admits did not set themselves apart by grades and test scores, but by some other factor. The other factor was athletics more often than not. Golf and gymnastics in the couple of cases that I can remember. I also got the feeling that Stanford does not favor applicants who were "too perfect." Witness a friend of mine who was student body president, captain of the soccer team, and a 4.0 who didn't get in.

I did not apply to Stanford, but had a fun time at Berkeley with former high school classmates that Stanford rejected.

65 Apparently no one on the Dodger roster can send their kids to Stanford for free.

88
That would be awful times ten.

I know three people that went to Stanford from my high school. One was a girl that won some really prestigious award that allowed her to go to any college she wanted on scholarship. Another was another really smart guy that I think also won some big awards. The third person was a guy I took tennis lessons with. I believe he went somewhere else then transferred to Stanford. He was and probably is a complete jerk and he got in trouble at Stanford because he made this racist video about Cal and why Cal has a better football program.

90 really? i thought that would be decent, but my point being is that if you're trading penny and one of your kids what could you really get in return? would it even be that much of an upgrade?

92
Ethier is no longer a kid. Rios or Wells wouldn't be much of an upgrade over him, and would cost more (in the case of Wells, ridiculously so); plus you give up the staff ace with a good contract for the next two seasons.

65- Eric Stephen, you are a man after my own heart. Love this.

Also, my friend just linked me to this Fire Joe Morgan bit about Andre Ethier from two years ago, and it made me giggle. I'm sure most of you have seen it, but if not:

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2006/08/best-ever.html

93 ya true, but if you trade penny what are you going to trade for? we're already locked up everywhere but 3B

guess we can refer to Kemp, Martin, Loney, Bills, Broxton, LaRoche, etc. as the wheat

78 - No, I'd be a little afraid of not making it back to the hospital in time for my son to be born, and then not being able to afford to pay the hospital for their trouble.

97 When is he due?

My son turns one on Saturday, cake with Mickey and Minnie.

95
That's the point. You don't trade Penny, unless it's for Sabathia.

Plus, we are set at 3rd through 2013! :)

98 I assume you mean Mantle and Miñoso.

77
1-White
2-None of them

99 if the reds gm calls you and says ethier and penny for dunn would you do it? remember if you do this pierre most likely goes to the bench

or maybe i should suggest trade for griffey in case someone is observing my comments.

100
I assumed Rourke and Driver.

The email I got from Stanford has some scenarios for parents in different situations, and there is indeed a sliding scale depending on how much over $100k you are making.

I was neither an athlete, nor a student body president. The process by which one gets accepted to a prestigious university is a bit of a crap-shoot, assuming you are above threshold.

I will gladly admit to any Cal fans out there that I would have gotten just as good a CS education there, though I'm very happy with where I ended up going. I definitely got more than what I paid for.

102
If the reds gm calls you and says ethier and penny for dunn would you do it?

No.

98 - March 21.

100 No, I mean the grinning mice in Los Angeles of Anaheim. I don't think they grinned as much or as often as they do since they've met me.

I sometimes think I can put on a Disney DVD for the kids and then go stick a few hundred dollars in a rat hole near my house and save myself a weekend of crowds and long lines.

But I'd do anything to make my children happy, and those silly people in those silly suits make them happy. I pull out twenties there like a drunken sailor at a strip club.

93 I agree with Wells, he's really not that good, but Rios is an amazing player with a huge ceiling.

108 so would you do ethier and penny for rios? it seems like a trade that would be intriuging for both sides

105 man if you can get 2 starters out of schmidt loaiza kuo kershaw, than your OF of dunn, kemp, a jones would look really good

109 Yep. We'd love it even more when Penny has a 4.70 ERA for the Blue Jays.

106 Have the baby hold on for one more day and he can share a birthday with me and Ramon Martinez.

105 I'd make sure it was a shiny penny in Ethier's pocket and that the Reds would take the Pierre contract too.

Brad Penny would only go if we got solid pitching in return I think. Selling him high is all I was thinking when I suggested it. I'm not shopping him, I don't think we are.

Remember last spring, when it appeared we needed a big bat and we had excess starters? Who had the bad half of 2006? Who got bombed in spring training? We would have traded him when his value was quite low. The premise of the whole thing is that his value is quite high now, it might be (stress might) the time to see what he could bring in return.

I think Penny is more likely than most players to give the Dodgers a "hometown discount".

1) Arguably, he has already given the Dodgers a discount once (his deal looks like a huge bargain now, but it looked like a great value then too)

2) Living in LA has been a boon for his social life since he has a proclivity towards dating actresses

3) He is not represented by Scott Boras

107 one of the funnest birthdays for my daughter was at Goofy's Kitchen

115 Where's Goofy's kitchen?

Sabathia is likely to command roughly $20m per season, and is essentially on the same service clock as Jake Peavy. Here is what SD will pay Peavy for his first 4 seasons of what would have been FA:

2009 - $11m
2010 - $15m
2011 - $16m
2012 - $17m
2013 - $22m option ($4m buyout)

So, SD will pay at least 4/$63m, and at most 5/$81m, meaning they will save $17-$20m assuming the Sabathia standard.

More reason to:

(a) despise the Padres (jealousy)
(b) sign Martin, et al as early as possible

Wow! I haven't even been out for five years and now Stanford does this. Thwpt! Happy for the kids going there now, but sad I could have gone for free and didn't.

117 I wish his opthamologist was a Dodger fan. I liked Peavy more when he could see.

and i'm sorry for all my hypithitcal trade talks it's like crack to a druggie to me... well i guess admitting you have a problem is the 1st step.

115 it's an all you can eat buffet style themed restaurant in the Disney Hotel. It's not exactly cheap (thinking $25 per), but it's certainly worth doing atleast once.

111
I guess I just don't see the hype with Rios. He's good enough offensively, and really good defensively, but Ethier & Pierre? Really?

It seems way to much to give up to weaken your pitching staff and we still live in a universe that thinks Pierre is a good player. Would Rios even play everyday?

122 i would do ethier and pierre for rios ;)

121 Do they have the characters in there while you eat like the Breakfast with Minnie?

I assume you mean the Grand Californian Hotel, the newest one connected to California Adventure.

err 121 was for 116 and not 115

112 - The way my wife is feeling, that baby can't come soon enough.

123
Ha! Freudian slip to be sure. Of course I meant to but Ethier & Penny! :)

yeah, there are all kinds of characters there. It is in the old Disney Hotel not the GCH. http://disneyland.disney.go.com/disneyland/en_US/hotels/dining/detail?name=GoofysKitchenDiningPage&bhcp=1

eeck, sorry about the long url

104 - "I was neither an athlete, nor a student body president. The process by which one gets accepted to a prestigious university is a bit of a crap-shoot, assuming you are above threshold. "

Same feelings here. I got into Stanford, but overall on my college applications I went 3-2-1.

FYI
Adam Dunn cannot be dealt without his okay before 6/15/2008 due to a full no-trade clause being triggered once his option was picked up and he also has a limited no-trade clause for the remainder of 2008 (allowing Dunn specify 10 clubs to which he would accept a trade).

[128,129] Thanks for the link! Good-bye Mr. Franklin...

131 you don't know until it happens, but i have a hard time believing dunn would reject a trade to LA

133 Hard is it may be to believe, not everyone (as evidenced by recent tries in the Free Agent market) wants to play for the Dodgers.

130 I applied to 3 schools and got into all 3.

But then I aimed for only local schools and two of them were pretty much a sure thing.

your OF of dunn, kemp, a jones would look really good

It would, provided Andruw can cover all that extra territory Dunn can't get to...

I know I should know this already, but will Torre ever let Penny or Lowe pitch nine?

Argh, ixnay on the unn-Day proposals fellas, there were so many of those last year. He's not coming to the Dodgers. We don't need him (unless the Reds are high for a day and we trade them Juan Pierre, and even then I can't say I'd rather have Dunn at this point over Ethier; at least the latter is a good fielder). Trading away an ace pitcher to get him would be even crazier, imho. So if you wanna make trade proposals for fun, can we leave Adam Dunn out of them at least? Pretty please with a cherry on top?

hehe, you are welcome. enjoy.

134 well it seems like he would approve going to a large warm market (bron in tx) and if the dodgers are trading for him they'd be in contention and he'd appear in line for a big pay day in LA. it just seems like there is too many good things for him to refuse.

My extracurriculars and test scores were both through the roof, but I got waitlisted by Stanford anyway. I actually called the admissions office to find out where exactly I went wrong, and the nice lady there told me: "You really shouldn't have gotten a C in that one biology class your senior year. That was what kept you out."

I was the kind of kid who was usually the best student in class when I found the subject interesting or worthwhile, but who would completely blow off classes I believed to be a waste of time. I guess I shouldn't have done that with biology.

138 we couldn't use a .900 ops?

126 My wife, who is due on the 27th of March with our 1st, feels the same way.

137
Why wouldn't he? Is that really a huge concern?

I don't see any tendency of Torre either way. Here are the Yankees' CG the last few years:

2007 - 1 (T-12th of 14)
2006 - 5 (T-4th of 14)
2005 - 8 (5th of 14)
2004 - 1 (14th of 14)
2003 - 8 (T-5th of 14)

141 You took biology in 12th grade? What about Chemistry and Physics?

I haven't completed perusing this set of comments, but it has made me think about our needs. We are set at almost every position but third base, but our system is ridiculously stacked with 3rd base prospects. Therefore the places to "get" players from outside is starting pitchers, or superstar position players. How to do this is food for thought. It should be done carefully.

142
Is the gain from Ethier to Dunn enough to offset losing Penny?

145 It was Biology II. I'd taken chemistry as a sophomore and physics as a junior.

147 under the premis i stated when i brought up dunn, if we can get 2 good pitchers out of schmidt, kuo, kershaw, loaiza than yes.

147 That's really my question/point in a nutshell.

Sure, I'd take Dunn's OPS over Pierre's. But I really don't want him in the outfield any more than I want Pierre, and losing a pitcher for him ain't worth it. Not with Jones, Kemp, Ethier, plus Young.

141 I was the kind of kid who never ever blew off a class. I just couldn't imagine it. Unnamed bad things would happen if you did that.

148 Sorry, just wondering. My chemistry teacher could have been the model for the muppet character (glasses, white lab coat, etc.).

149
Counting on 350-400 IP from Schmidt, Kuo, Kershaw, McDonald, & Loaiza significantly weakens the 2008 team.

Counting on 175-200 IP from that group, plus having Penny at the helm of the rotation is a much better position to be in.

I don't know what the upgrade is from Ethier to Dunn in terms of wins, but I'd be shocked if it was much more than 1 win. Dunn gives back a lot of his offense, on defense.

OT - Since we are talking about Stanford.

One of their most famous alums was about to go down in his match play round today, Tiger Woods, 3-down with 5 holes to play, Woods after bogeying 13, went birdie, birdie, birdie, eagle, par, to win 1 up over J.B. Holmes (he's heard all the jokes).

151
My mother ordered me to stay home from school on Senior Ditch Day.

154 i almost pulled the trigger and put JB as my round 1 upset, but my pencil wouldn't let me

153

Ultimately, pitching beats hitting when you reach the postseason.

Some folks might argue that the Red Sox won on the strength of their superior lineup, but I think it had more to do with their pitching staff that gave up the fewest runs in MLB. Josh Beckett played a big part of that role.

144, I'm trying to figure out my Keepers. :-)

It really won't matter because it's either Teixeira or Penny, and I'm pretty sure I have to go with the bat here. I like Penny, though, and even with his peripherals he seemed a better pitcher last year. (Maybe a mental corner?) So my league counts CGs and I remember a couple of times last year it seemed like Penny and Lowe should have been allowed to go on. As a competitor I'd want to be able to go for it, as an arm-chair manager I understand the caution.

157 let's not revist that whole would boston still do beckett for hanley discussion (pretend lowell wasn't involved.)

155
Senior Ditch Day was the only day I missed an entire day of school.

I did use to ditch school, but at least I always showed up in the morning.

159 nobody else was. It's ok to talk about Beckett and his abilities without bringing up the trade

Don't forget that Dunn will be a free agent at the end of the year, so all we're trading for is one year of him versus 2 years of Penny and 4 of Ethier. Having the exclusive rights to pay a guy a ton of money (a la Johan) isn't much of a plus in my book either.

158 I'll bet Penny doesn't give up nine home runs this year. That's what's going to kill him.

I had a friend that missed so many days of school in 8th grade that the Vice Principal threatened to come to his house with the police if he missed another day.

And he still has that same attitude today, evidenced by the fact he's failed out of UCSB twice already.

162 true
163 agreed.

I don't think I was allowed to do Senior Ditch Day because we had a basketball or baseball game on that day and if you didn't show up for classes you weren't allowed to play sports.

I was also a Stanford reject, but I probably would have had a better chance of getting in if I'd spent more time writing my essays for the application (even then it would probably only be 50/50). I already had my heart set on UCLA, but decided to apply to Stanford and Harvard just to see if I could get in...which I did not.

141 - I'm surprised they responded so candidly. I thought all those decisions were kept behind the curtain.

I took AB Calculus in 11th grade. For 12th grade, I was in the next math class but I was pretty much at my limit. I dropped the class in October, despite my college counselor telling me it was a mistake. Maybe it was for the best, though.

My Stanford five year reunion is happening this fall. I've been peer pressured into saying I will go. But if the Dodgers are in the playoffs, ALL BETS ARE OFF.

I only missed school if I got really really sick. I liked school. You got to learn things, and learning required lots of reading. At that age, I could handle books much better than people. The other highlight was getting to play handball during lunch.

169
You played handball during high school?

168 The problem with reunions is the longer you put off going to one, the harder it is to go the next time. I still haven't been and probably won't make my 20th (!) either. Unless Jon will be there.

170 Absolutely.

168 I'm surprised that they have in person reunions anymore especially since everyone there will probably texting all their friends instead of catching up with folks.

My guess is Molly will be their coolest one at her reunion, unless someone else made a fortune with their IPO.

But will you go to your 10 year high school reunion?

167 AP Calculus?

173-Ha. Not likely. I was the only one of my girlfriends who didn't end up at Harvard/Yale Law or USC Film School. Plus, one of my guy friends is like #4 at Facebook.

No one bothered to arrange our 5 year high school reunion.

169 I am assuming you mean "handball" played off the wall with slicees and all that. Not the preppy version played indoors.

Since everybody is talking about what classes they took in high school... I took 2 years of chemistry and 2 years of physics in high school (honors and AP), and 1 year of biology. I also took AB calculus sophomore year, BC junior year. (I went to one of THOSE schools). But then junior year I also had a near mental breakdown and got more B's than I should have. That's probably why I didn't get into Stanford.

175 But you get to go to Minnesota and talk to Timberwolves.

My 5 year high school reunion would be this year. I don't know of any such thing.

171 - I've been to my 5, 10 and 15. Although it's gotten to a point where the trip is mainly an excuse to get the families together at someone's house. I wasn't on campus too much for the 15th.

174 - Yes. But there was AB Calculus and BC Calculus, depending how advanced you were.

I'm pretty sure I didn't get into Stanford because "graduated 100th in my class with no activities" doesn't sound too appealing to them.

I went from Chem honors to Genereal Physical Science, because I wanted some real slacker classes my senior year (I also took weightlifting and graphics). The lame part was that they changed teachers for the class. The old teacher spent most of his time playing Simpson episodes and trying to score with female students.

I've got a visitor coming out here the week of March 31 who would like to see a Dodger game if possible. Obviously, opening day is out, but if anyone has a pair of tickets for 4/1 or 4/2 that they don't need, I'd be happy to pay full value for them and pick them up if necessary. It doesn't matter where the seats are. Amazingly, my work can't seem to get me tickets. If you can help me out, email me at mleadman@charter.net

Thanks!

So, I finally watched the Simpsons movie. Homer's epiphany was brilliant. And of all people Cletus (!) saves the day. I quite liked it.

To quote Russ Cargill: "You ever tried going mad without power? It's boring no one listens to you."

182 I think I was 17th, with few activities.

In other news, I did not enjoy my high school years at all (well, some parts). But kids sure have to do a lot of stuff just to get into a good school. I had far more free time (and far more sleep) in college.

I took Homer Simpson's advice and didn't try. Graduated in the bottom half of my class. Usually didn't bother with homework. But I got into the colleges I applied to. Homer was right.

My high school was pretty much the screen play for Dazed and Confused.

My high school was pretty much like all schools at that time, a little "White Shadow", some "Fast Times" with even "Animal House" creeping in there.

Racial issues and school riots crept into the mix at times at my high school too. The school was shutdown for a week a couple times. We also had local factions of the Crips and Bloods that made things interesting.

I was going to go to my 10-year high school reunion, but my mother died at about the same time and I decided not to be an early version of Larry David looking for sympathy.

I got the "memory book" and I went through it and realized that I hardly knew anybody who was there.

I was 5-0 in college applications. To this day its one of my proudest accomplishments, although saying that gets more pathetic with each passing day. Only one of those applications was to an "elite" private.

I'll have a 20 year reunion in 2009. I went to 10, and it was a trip. I don't keep in contact with anyone from high school. The biggest running subplot for my class is whether Pete Sampras will show up. My money is on "no."

On the subject of handball, I seem to remember debating rule variations on a previous DT slow day (no slicees, no cross-countrys, etc.) My take was when you ban slicees and cross countrys, you're basically banning good handball playing. Far more controversial than the designated hitter.

Luckily Glendale CC welcomed me with open arms after I wasted my high school years. Studying was never my strong suit, I respect those who actually knuckled down during their high school years and chose the future over fun. My career path has worked out okay for a slacker but I always will have a what if wonder about my life's choices.

168 But if the Dodgers are in the playoffs, ALL BETS ARE OFF.

Then you can forget it already. You're not going. :-)

184
You can always have two of my Loge tickets on either date but they are the outer loge and you should make sure your friends are game.

My high school had a lot of crazy moments and a lot of crazy stories. Thank you upper middle class to upper class suburbia.

190 My memorable moment from 12th grade was when the Narc Id'ed the drug ring in school and one of my friends got the beige slip telling him to report to admin office.

He was able to graduate and go on to college, etc.

Narcs would have a hard time with this wireless age.

A helicopter once crashed onto the football field of my high school. It wasn't the big story because a day earlier, one of the teachers who had mysteriously disappeared from school was on the news for being a "sexual predator."

My top three high school stories (that are at least related to school):

3) A classmate of mine was arrested when they found a list he made of all the students he was going to kill.

2) Our student advise(who was a great guy), went insane and showed up at his ex-wife's house, poured gasoline all over himself and lit himself on fire. He died from the burns.

1) We had at least three students that slept with teachers, but one story stood out from the others. A PE teacher had an affair with a girl in my class. That summer he died of a heart attack. The family of the girl decided to sue the family of the PE teacher claiming that the teacher gave their daughter a STD that can't be cured.

I went only to my 10-year HS reunion. My 30 (!) is this year, but I don't think they know where I am anymore. I had some friends, but didn't like HS all that much. Cut class in junior year - a few days here and there - but since I went to summer school every year, I needed few credits to graduate and took only four classes in the fall and two in the spring (physics, pre-calculus) of my senior year - no need to cut with that little class time. We had only two AP classes offered, US History, which I took, and English, which I did not take.

I must have been a lot like Eric Enders, because although my GPA was somewhere in the top 10 - 20% of the class, I had the third highest test scores, behind only two of the three valedictorians in my class. That was more than enough to get into UCLA in those days, so I didn't apply to any elite privates. I wouldn't have survived my daughter's HS regimen and would have probably struggled to get into CSUN these days.

199 We went from congratulating a new Dodger exec to someone lighting himself on fire.

Only on DT.

I can't believe any new Dodger exec would light themselves on fire.

202 So has your daughter moved on to snowcones yet?

I believe I graduated 6th in my HS class. I took AP Calculus, AP European History, and AP U.S. History. I skipped AP English and Physics.

I only applied to UCSD, UCLA, and UC Irvine -- and got in to all three -- and picked UCSD.

193 We called Glendale CC "Eagle Rock HS, grades 13 and 14".

The TV movie "The Unwed Father" was filmed at ERHS (a grade 7-12 campus) for some reason. My neighbor, a senior girl, said Kay Lenz was "cool". My backside got a scant amount of screen time. That filming was the most exciting thing to happen there in my six years, by far.

202
If Andre Ethier got traded so Juan Pierre could start every day in leftfield, I think a bunch of people here will go to Dodger Stadium and set themselves on fire like a few Vietnam War protesters did.

We're trying to limit the sugar, but she gets chocolate chips as a reward for pee pee in the potty. (Sorry, non-parents. Feel free to resume self-immolation chat.)

207 was in re 203 , in case anyone cared.

Nothing proves a point like self-immolation.

I'm glad my parents didn't use self-immolation as a way to get me toilet trained.

201 - LOL.

I haven't been keeping track of good DT comments for a while. That reminds me I have to start again.

Can we give the Dodgers front office chocolate chips as rewards for good personnel moves?

Kay Lenz was on House this season or last, and I couldn't believe how she had changed. She had a memorable guest role on Hill Street.

By the way, I was watching a Northern Exposure rerun last night, the one where Maggie is asked to be homecoming queen (speaking of high school). Her date was a very young Jack Black, in one of his first roles.

Nate, as a public service, can you please post before 6pm that you are worried about tonight's Laker game?

I had some drinks with my old cross country coach last night and learned what teachers were sleeping with what girls, and that being a teacher is just like being at Club Med.

I chose the wrong profession.

The first self-immolation I can remember is a picture in the paper, likely the LAT, of a Czech protester in Prague in 1968. I remember asking my father to explain how exactly it was that killing yourself with fire could help your side win, and how does that help you if you are dead.

Boy, self-immolation is cheery talk.

212 If my experience is any indication, it will morph into blackmail. Ned will insist on dealing Kemp and LaRoche for middle relief unless he gets his chocolate chips right now.

215
No wonder Greg Brock is never around.

Loved that show.

205 Kay Lenz (former Mrs. David Cassidy) was a familiar face on TV for over 30 years, she was last on a House episode in 2007.

The '70s saw several actresses who made a career of being victims/vigilantes in the TV movie of the week. Kay Lenz also starred in the TV movie version of "Carrie" called "The Initiation of Sarah," which also starred TV vixens Morgan Fairchild and Morgan Brittany and a young Talia Balsam of "Mad Men."

215 Being in the same profession, I know that your last sentence stands without any outside context.

213 I like Janine Turner much better as a brunette rather than has a blonde in her first big role on General Hospital (sister of Demi Moore).

220 Oh, man. New Rule. For terming Mean Morgan Fairchild a vixen, you are hereby sentenced to watch 2 consecutive season reruns of `Flamingo Road', bhsportsguy.

Once at a high school football game I was covering, the reporters who were covering the other school pointed out the coach's girlfriend in the stands. And she was a high school student. And the coach looked to be about 50. I was amazed at how cavalier the attitude was.

Two weeks later, the coach was arrested for statutory rape and fired.

Pretty Maids All in a Row

It is always the PE and the history teachers so Greg is in the right place.

My wife's 1st husband was a HS football coach who married one of his students. She is no longer fond of football.

A couple male teachers married students in my high school. We didn't think it was weird at the time.

223 Context man, context. In the '70s, I think vixen would apply.

In her more recent appearances (Friends), I would accept your punishment.

I fear an Andrew F. reminder of something I once said that I will not repeat here.

Jarrod Saltalamacchia married a teacher at his high school, but she says she was never his teacher.

And ever since I posted a story about that on the Griddle, it's been the top search phrase on Google to find the Griddle every month.

Except this past January when it was "GMAC Bowl."

Jon, you have to got keep this thread handy for an upcoming off-day.

applied out of HS to Long Beach State and was accepted. Opted to to go to jc for two years and save my money. Applied to Westmont and Biola, accepted at both and went to Biola. Paid my own way (still paying). Got a masters in computer science at CSUF.

222
I would have moved to Alaska if I knew a Janine Turner was waiting for me. Of course I would have had to go as a Doctor and that would have involved to much effort. It is easier to daydream and the results always favor the dreamer.

227
Don't forget, Morgan Fairchild was hot as Dottie in the movie within the movie in Pee Wee's Big Adventure (an "E Top 25"® movie).

Shaq will try so hard tonight he will re-injure himself and be lost for the season.

Kobe should have the surgery. I envision a scenario where he stays healthy during the season but once the playoff starts, they start hacking his hand and they re-injure it. As someone said much smarter then I, if they can't win enough games to make the playoffs without him, they aren't going to be good enough to win the championship with him anyway.

232 Maybe this is a Ginger/Maryann thing, but I will contend that she was not as hot as actual Dottie. Not nearly as hot.

220 We were impressed with Kay Lenz because she had been in a real movie, she was Breezy.

I had a friend who, as a young teacher in the early-to-mid 80s, fell in love with a student. Claims he didn't date her until after he quit that job. I knew him as a very upstanding and honorable guy, so I believe him. I did meet her once - seemed attractive and nice.

The girls in my HS didn't seem interested in the teachers, except the young, longhaired blond english teacher. Until he married one of the girls' PE coaches.

232 A Family Guy episode last night had Peter spend $20,000 to redo a room in the Pee Wee Playhouse style.

He did the song, had the magic word, very funny. When I looked up the show on Wikipedia, I was surprised that they made only 45 episodes and Phil Hartman was only in the first season.

There's no doubt that Morgan Fairchild earned her vixen membership card.

And it's pretty clear that Northern Exposure was the peak of Janine Turner's career in all aspects.

234 I agree.

234 - Elizabeth Daily moved on to a prolific voiceover career.

Happy 81st birthday to a classy gentleman and fine actor, Sidney Poitier.

239 Also memorable for her role in Valley Girl. She does have that distinctive, husky voice.

I far and away had the highest test scores and placed higher in my high school class than anyone else in my basic training class. That was after college didn't work for me the first three times.

231 - When I went to Alaska in 1995, I took a tour plane out of Juneau and met a real-life Maggie O'Connell. Rather breathtaking.

239
She also has done some risque roles. It was weird seeing the voice of Tommy Pickles as a prostitute in the Devils Rejects.

234 Dottie had a girl (in the basement) next door appeal, but she was no Morgan Fairchild!

236 I loved that show. Also, don't forget Laurence Fishburne as Cowboy Curtis.

231 I liked Cynthia Geary better. Never did quite get the Holling / Shelley thing though. Fun show.

I still find Gumby to be a lot weirder than Pee Wee's Playhouse.

Pee Wee's Playhouse was subversive brilliance. He was the Soupy Sales of his time.

243 Never been to Alaska, but I've passed through Cicely (AKA Roslyn, WA) where Northern Exposure was shot. Town was as seen on TV, and the show was still in production, but, unfortunately for me, there was no cast (nor crew) on site.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this already, but Channel 24 in Los Angeles airs commercial-free Northern Exposure reruns weeknights at 10 p.m. Perfect for pre-bedtime viewing.

246
Cynthia Geary was a visitor in my apartment once.

I did not realize this until Northern Exposure came on the air and my roommate from my college days pointed it out to me.

I was crushed when Playhouse went off the air. As I remember it, my brother and I would watch Pee Wee and This Week in Baseball back to back. I was old enough to appreciate the odd aspects of the show, while my brother was young enough to just enjoy it as good kids' tv. Made for a great Saturday morning.

The Pee Wee's Playhouse entrance music is so awesome I can't put it into word form. The cameos on that show were top notch. Or at least they're top notch looking back. I didn't realize just how cool Lando Carlissian being the mailman was when I was 6.

212 - would chocolate chips be better or worse than banana-flavored pellets as a reward for front office work well done?

Adult Swim showed Pee Wee's Playhouse for awhile. I was able to notice that Natasha Lyonne played one of the kids in a few episodes.

In my opinion, Calvert DeForest had the best character on the show.

253 Billy Dee Williams never appeared on Pee Wee's Playhouse.

S. Epatha Merkerson, more famous as Lt. Van Buren on Law & Order, portrayed Reba the Mail Lady on the show.

253 Here ya go -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp7G18nQxvU

I think my favorite musical bit on the show was the intro for the King of Cartoons.

257 That trip over to youtube to find that clip also resulted in me watching a few moments of "Best of the Solid Gold Dancers, Season 1."

Just thought I'd pass that along.

Okay, from congratulating Ellen Harrigan on her promotion to setting yourself on fire to Denny Terrio, with a little Pee Wee Herman and Morgan Fairchild to boot.

There is also a moustache-less Jeff Kent with Maury Wills photo on Dodgers.com for those that are interested.

Oh and since we are talking old time cartoons, etc., another thing that is bothering me, Christina Ricci as "Trixie" in the upcoming "Speed Racer" movie.

I mean Ricci is a very attractive woman but Trixie was waifish while Ricci is more, shall we say, curvaceous.

Just saying.

259 Denny Terrio was Dance Fever. I was talking about Solid Gold (Andy Gibb/Marilyn McCoo). Totally different thing.

261 Stand corrected and did you know the last appearance of the Solid Gold Dancers was in the movie "Scrooged."

259
The Martin flanked by Loney & Kemp pic is cool.

256 Wow. Way off. I know I'm not thinking of Cowboy Curtis. Hmm..time to investigate. The jazz cats were absolutely brilliant.

263 I figured someone would comment on that pix.

265 I'm waiting for someone to comment on the Colleti/Delwyn Young shot.

262
Loved that movie. My favorite adaptation.

Off to watch the Clippers, why I don't know, I'd rather be home watching Kobe/Shaq.

The board seems strange without GB and D4P.

BTW-The Angels requested 17 VIP tickets (to buy) for tonights Suns vs. Lakers game and were told that they had only 2 available.

They will have to go to Stub Hub like the rest of us.

267 Bill Murray was at his best in that film.

I like the photo with our Assistant GM just sitting cross legged on the floor.

Come on, Ceballos!!! I still have your Laker jersey. What are you doing?

I missed this in last night's Gurnick article and didn't notice it mentioned here:

http://tinyurl.com/298sjp

Here are the Minor Leaguers that will report early: pitchers James Adkins, Brian Akin, Marlon Arias, Robert Booth, Jesus Castillo, Javy Guerra, Kershaw, Jacobo Meque, Miguel Pinango, Tim Sexton, Eduardo Sierra, Kyle Smit, Josh Wall and Cody White; catchers Alex Garabedian, Kenley Jansen, Jesse Mier, Carlos Santana and Matt Wallach; infielders Josh Bell, Ivan DeJesus, Blake Dewitt, Kevin Howard, Chris Jacobs, Francisco Lizarraga, Preston Mattingly and Russ Mitchell; outfielders Jaime Hoffman, Andrew Lambo, Exavier Logan, Anthony Raglani and Trayvon Robinson.

Among those not on the list is pitcher Scott Elbert, a 22-year-old former first-round pick who missed most of last year after needing shoulder surgery.

Hey, there's a lunar eclipse tonight. Should I go outside and look up?

From tonight's Gurnick article:
http://tinyurl.com/yvzfga

Don't read anything into it.

That was manager Joe Torre's response when asked why Andy LaRoche was grouped with the rest of the starting infield during the first day of drills on Wednesday while Nomar Garciaparra was taking ground balls with reserves.

Also, breaking news that Joe Beimel cut his hair.

Why have I always envisioned Xavier Paul as some sort of preppy-looking white guy? I finally saw a picture of him in yesterday's gallery and he looks a lot like Wilson Valdez.

273 Depends. Will water fall into your eyes if you do?

275 Because you mentally pronounced his name ZAY-vure instead of ha-vee-AIR ? I imagine that last name is pronounced somewhat like "powell". Does that permit me to try and call him Boog?

The eclipse is nearing totality over New England, and amazingly, there aren't clouds in the way at the moment. This is almost unprecedented in east coat astronomy.

Oh my goodness. Someone convince me there was a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant. Wow.

278 When I was sixteen, a few of us decided to "get closer to the eclipse" by climbing to the top of a rickety fire tower. When the moon disappeared and a strong wind came up, I truly felt the terror of my ancient ancestors.

Now I'm going back outside--it's clear here in Alabama too. Staying in the yard, though.

273
I guess I had a Simpsons quote that was too obscure for the group.

281 It doesn't take much for a Simpsons reference to elude me. I've only seen scattered episodes here and there.

Was it from any time in the last seven years?

It was from the episode where Krusty finds out he has a daughter (voiced by Drew Barrymore). Homer and Krusty are sneaking into Fat Tony's home on a wire above two goons.

One goes: "There's a lunar eclipse tonight. Maybe we should look up."
Goon 2: "Nope, for me, it's solar or nothing."

First aired 11/12/2000

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/BABF17

I love this thread, but I have no idea what's going on.

Dang it, I should have known that.

280 Ken, another problem for east coast astronomy--its 17 degrees F at the moment and I have no right facing windows.

Ahh--wish I had the luck of Homer.

I went outside to look at the eclipse, a small child dressed in a miniature Kobe Bryant jersey tried to set himself on fire.

"Someone convince me there was a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant."

Well, there have probably been about fifty. Where should I start?

Nate, as a public service, can you please post before 6pm that you are worried about tonight's Laker game?

Crap, is it to late to proclaim my anxiety about the game!?!?

actually funny story, today at my school's career fair, the Phoenix Suns were there and I basically spent the majority of my "interview" time heckling them and saying this was the year the Lakers triumph.

I probably won't get a return call.

http://www.kffl.com/article.php/85764/515

about half way down the page and with pretty decent analysis they come to this conclusion:

Prediction: Kemp/Ethier platoon in right field, Pierre in left field.

This is too bad. I was hoping to get in on the free money they were promising to anybody injured by the falling satellite.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UUFA002&show_article=1

An interesting thought. I think a lot more people will be watching the performance of the D's outfield this year. Fwiw.

293 If it makes you feel any better, he thinks Nyger Morgan while be the Pirate center fielder this year, and that's not going to happen.

290
"Someone convince me there was a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant."

Well, there have probably been about fifty. Where should I start?

At first, 50 seemed kind of high. But, this is the kind of question/statement that began Bill James on the road to his Win Shares and his New Historical Baseball Abstract a few years back. If I recall correctly, he was talking with someone about Mike McFarlane being one of the 100 best catchers ever, and he decided to see if he could find out if he was.

I didn't know Strawberry's kid had gone pro. I'm trying not to root against him, bt it's a fight against muscle memory.

And it's a losing battle.

As good as the Lakers have played tonight, it seems like they are trying to give this one away.

I don't need to see Spawn of Strawberry.

This has been one of the best offensive games I've seen all year.

Pau!

By the way, I'm in favor of running a graphic on screen like the old Batman fight scenes (like "Wham!" or "Boffo") everytime Gasol does something good. "Pau!"

Pau, please tell Lamar that he needs to use his long arms and dunk everything like that too.

302

Haha, I've been thinking that as well. It would be a great marketing campaign on LA billboards even.

289 - genius.

303
You mean you don't like Odom's missed layups?

303
Wow, it's as if Odom's ears were burning. He laid that one out for Amare to block.

293 That guy loses all credibility with this statement: "The former Oakland Athletics farm hand's abysmal track record against lefties might be the ultimate reason Ethier can't shed out of his platoon status in the end."

Ethier's career splits

vs. RHP - .292/.361/.475
vs. LHP - .309/.343/.426

He's a little better against righties, but far from "abysmal" against lefties. Plus, Pierre can only dream of putting up a .769 OPS against any type of pitcher.

306
It's quite frankly amazing how many he misses. How could you be so skilled and have such bad touch on gimme layups?

C'mon, Kobe. No need to give them a free bucket.

286 Thank me for it not happening in the Jeff Kent day thread.

Now that is a large bump on the head.

Note to self: Avoid getting elbowed by Shaquille O'Neal in the head.

Boxing Helena would have been a very different movie if Shaquille O'Neal had played the title character.

312 ,313 ,314
Just when I try to root against Shaq he goes and does something to make me like him again! :)

My feelings toward Shaq are similar to Homer's feelings for the old submarine sandwich in the trash can.

308

Not only that but I think he was better against lefties in '06 & threw out his minor league career (don't take my word for it but that's what I've read in the past) regardless, Ethier is WAY better then Pierre NOT MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT!

Hmmm..looked like Kobe traveled on that break....

I've been trying to make my first mobile post EVER to no avail, hopefully tomorrow.

290
I know I should ignore this stuff, but the statement that there have been 50 players better than Kobe is one of those fire-starter inanities that drive me insane. He's probably not the best player ever. But by every conceivable measure, he's in the discussion. Rings. Scoring. Defense. Heart. And, if you don't trust your eyes, I'm sure he'd grade out as elite in all the statistical metrics you can think of. There are players who spark eras when, as fans, it's sorta the collective karmic duty to enjoy what we have. Kobe is one of those players. ...
316
And I still like Shaq, too.

Great win for the Lakers. Just an excellent all-around basketball game by both teams.

Great game by the Lakers. Sure glad the Lakers are good this year, as watching a Laker game sure beats any of the other junk on T.V. Couple of thoughts on the game. Gasol wow! What a difference it makes having him on the team. Shaq was ok considering it was his first game back, but his free throw shooting killed Phx, good luck with that Phx. Sure is nice having all these great free throw shooters on the team. Can't believe that Kobe can play like this with the injury on his shooting hand. Must be difficult being an NBA referee, because there were sure some bad calls (both ways). First place, how sweet it is.

vr, Xei

Pau Gasol Rules...... :)

Still can't believe he is a Laker.

320
If I had to guess, I'd say Kobe's in the top 20 for sure.

Remember that when Eric Enders compiles the top 50 basketball players of all time, he has to include the starting five for the 1966 Texas Western team.

Then he works on the next 45.

I can't wait to eat my crow about the Lakers front office when the playoffs come around.

The Suns and Lakers are tied atop the Pacific at 37-17. Right now, there are 12 teams in the NBA with a .600 winning percentage (9 in the West!). A quick glance at their remaining schedules:

Phoenix
15 games vs. .600+ (8 at home, 7 at road)
13 games vs. the rest (6/7)

Lakers
10 games vs. .600+ (5/5)
18 games vs. the rest (11/7)

The Lakers only play 1 of their next 10 games against .600 teams, and they should get Bynum back right before they start playing more tough games.

Color this division purple & gold.

325
Ha!

I would say Kobe is certainly behind Magic, Kareem, Wilt, West, & Baylor, and that's just Lakers! But that doesn't mean he can't still be a top 20 player.

Being the 6th best Laker of all time is like being the 6th best Dylan song. It's still in the stratosphere.

Can someone please clue me in? slicee? cross-country? How does this relate to handball?

With all the Jason Kidd talk over the last week, I've heard him mentioned several times as a "hall of famer", first ballot in some cases.

Is that really true? He's like the Trevor Hoffman of the NBA. He might be a hall of famer, but since many think of him as such, he'll end up a HOFer.

Since the Basketball Hall of Fame has a secret panel of electors and picks players from the college and international games and both men and women, it's very hard to predict when someone will be inducted into Springfield.

Or why.

But there are players who have had careers as successful as Kidd's who are in the Basketball Hall of Fame: Calvin Murphy, Dominique Wilkins, Dave Bing come to mind.

327
Following up, here are the schedules for the other candidates for the #1 overall seed in the West:

New Orleans (37-15)
15 games vs. .600+ (9 at home, 6 at road)
15 games vs. the rest (6/9)

San Antonio (35-17, 2 GB)
16 games vs. .600+ (8/8)
14 games vs. the rest (7/7)

Utah (35-19, 3 GB)
13 games vs. .600+ (7/6)
15 games vs. the rest (8/7)

Dallas (35-19, 3 GB)
14 games vs. .600+ (7/7)
14 games vs. the rest (9/5)

Looks like the Lakers have the easiest remaining schedule of all the West contenders.

Lakers' tiebreakers against the best in the west:

New Orleans: Lakers 1-1 against, play again 3/14 @NO, 4/11 in LA
Phoenix: 3-1, Lakers own tiebreaker
San Antonio: 1-2, play again 4/13 in LA (2nd to last game of season)
Utah: 2-1, play again 3/20 in Utah
Dallas: 0-1, play again 3/2 in LA, 3/18 @ Dal, 4/4 in LA

They really should have the teams with the top 16 records make the playoffs. Forget the Eastern Conference haha.

Really good episode of In Treatment tonight. Sophie continues to be the best storyline. Mia Wasikowska is an extremely good and promising actress.

BTW, thanks trainwreck, for the last few hours I have had the "Gumby" theme song running through my mind.

He was once a little green ball of clay...GUMBY!

I'll get you for this.

336
I bet that's Bill Walton's favorite animated show.

In Treatment and Tell Me You Love Me look all depressing and grown up.

I remember when HBO was all Dream On and Not Necessarily the News. Those were the days.

I remember growing up always wishing I could watch Dream On.

hey guys, i haven't been around much lately so i don't know if anyone posted this, but check out the pirates' new pitching machine:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08050/858672-63.stm

338 Check your inbox.

338
I thought I just had an epiphany that the guy from Dream On (Brian Benben) was the same guy as the dad on Aliens in America (Scott Patterson).

I was wrong.

Unsubscribe.

340
I need to get me one of those.

And then give up using it after a week.

338 Yeah, today Stuart Pankin would be playing a therapist on Not Necessarily the Neuroses.

By the way, do I have to turn in my manhood license if I admit that I enjoyed watching the movie Music and Lyrics tonight? Better go watch me some UFC (grunt!) to make up for it.

Missed the Lakers game but the highlights were awesome.

343 Did this become a listserv while I was away?

346
It's payback for post 218 here:

http://tinyurl.com/yw5xz3

Okay, thanks to a 40th birthday gift from my parents, Dodger Thoughts is now operating on a new iMac.

It's awesome, but I'm having trouble importing files from my old computer. The migration assistant isn't working because even though I have my old computer set to stay awake, it keeps shutting down after about 10 minutes.

I've then started trying to import files manually over the firewire connection, but in addition to the shutdown problem, I can't figure out how to do things like import my old saved e-mail, as well as get my verizon e-mail account set up on the new computer.

Any tips would be welcome.

The Padres plan on using 12 pitchers right out of the gate:

Bud Black said, "In this day and age, 12 is pretty much the magic number with how your bullpen is set up and overall, the state of starting pitching and their length,"

http://tinyurl.com/2rpojq

348 Congrats!

Very late catching up with the Stanford admissions thread, but it brought back a lifelong memory: I got turned down by Harvard, Yale and Princeton on the same day, was so devastated I actually forgot about the Stanford application, then later that week got something in the mail that said, "Congratulations, you've been admitted to Leland Stanford Jr. University," and after all the rejections assumed this was another one and they were assigning me instead to a junior college (as community college was called in 1968). Took me quite a while sorting through the envelope to realize that the "Jr." is part of the university's official name (after Leland Stanford's son who died at a young age). Recovered from the shock in time to see Stanford go to two Rose Bowls in the next four years, and win both. Not holding my breath for that miracle to happen again, but glad for the one that got me there.

Okay, I'm admittedly out of my depth when discussing the NBA. I'll also grant that my statement that there are 50 players better than Kobe Bryant is probably an exaggeration. It's probably more like 25. A couple of things to keep in mind here:

- Sabermetric analysis of basketball tends to show that the two-point jump shot is the least efficient shot you can take. The shots that generally help to win games are layups, dunks, and three-pointers.
- If you're a great defensive wing, you're still a wing, and no matter how good you are there's no way for you to have as much defensive impact on the game as a great center.

That said, let's take a look at Kobe Bryant.

- Has three rings, but was not the best player on any of these championship teams.
- Has never been the best player on a team that won a playoff round.
- Scoring average of 24.8 PPG is twelfth all time, but this does not yet include the decline phase of his career.
- Is not a particularly efficient scorer. Has never ranked among the league leaders in TSP (true shooting percentage). His player efficiency rating has never ranked better than third in the league and ranks 19th all time.
- Has never finished higher than third in MVP voting.
- Is not a notable rebounder or passer.

That does not look to me like the resume of someone who is one of the handful of greatest players of all time. Without going too in-depth into the stats, I'll throw out the names of 21 guys who are almost certainly better players:

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Tim Duncan
George Mikan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Charles Barkley
Magic Johnson
Bob Pettit
Shaquille O'Neal
John Stockton
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
LeBron James
Julius Erving
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor

352 Where's the basketball version of Bill James when you need him?

I have to disagree about the defense aspect though. A center can generally just stand near the basket and react when guys come into the lane while also defending one-on-one when his player gets the ball, but it is much harder to guard a guy one-on-one on the perimeter considering there is so much more space to cover. A center may be more important in the overall scheme of team defense, but the difference between a shut-down guard and an intimidating low-post presence skews in the guard's favor I would think.

There are actually two pretty good basketball versions of Bill James. Dean Oliver for pro basketball and Ken Pomeroy for college.

I have found the one weakness of this message board: lack of new posts to read when one is stuck at work at 2:45 in the AM.

Or 8 am on the East Coast.

Or even 9 am on the EC.

353. While guarding a guy out in the open court takes more effort than playing defense on the low post, a great low post defender is much more valuable than a lock down perimeter defender. I great low post defender and shot blocker takes away offense for every player on the opposing team inside the paint, while a lock down perimeter defender only affects the offense of one opposing player.

352 I'm willing to buy that, but I'm comfortable stating that Kobe is one of the most gifted players I've ever seen. He makes some outrageous shots.

I'm not going to get into an argument involving sabermetrics, as I have no idea what I'm talking about. But I will say that LeBron on that list ahead of Kobe is pretty ridiculous.

My parents went to USC and I grew up going to their football and basketball games. My first year at Stanford (99), the football team went to the Rose Bowl. I wasn't that surprised or impressed, but everyone told me to appreciate it because it wouldn't happen for another 50 years. I'm starting to see their point.

Right, who knew in 1988 that we would be celebrating the 20th anniversary of that Championship with only one playoff win since then.

One shouldn't raise their nose at the fact that Kobe may not be one of the top 25 players in the history of basketball. To be in the top 50 is still quite an achievement. I would have a hard time arguing with Eric on his list. Not sure Barkley belongs or James at this point but I also would be able to add two players who should make the list. Kobe is an incredible scorer, but he's not a great shooter, or playmaker. Sabremetrics does exist in basketball. Hollinger on ESPN gets flack every week for stating that Kobe is not one of the top 5 players in the league. When you see what Chris Paul is doing it is hard to argue that Kobe is the MVP.

Trot Nixon signs with the Dbacks. Guess Dodgers had scouts watching him as well.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3256436

It's a minor league deal, but I really doubt how effective Tracy can be after having micro fracture surgery in September. I wouldn't be suprised if Nixon ends up playing more than Tracy.

362 352

I don't have a problem with anyone who says Kobe is only the 25th best NBA player in NBA history. However, to say that he's merely 5th or below in the NBA right now is off base.

Eric Enders' list of "guys better than Kobe" is composed of mostly centers. If Kobe Bryant was 7 feet tall and played the post, maybe he'd have similar shooting percentages.

My point is, it's apples and oranges. Kobe is not going to lead in assists because he's a shooting guard. He's not going to win the shooting percentage title (is that a title?). I don't want to sound like those guys they lampoon on FJM, but when I actually see Kobe play, it's clear to me he's a cut above the rest.

361 - You had to be told? You couldn't just sense how rare it was? I guess you really had no idea what you were getting into.

365
It should also be clear to you that when you watch Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett, LeBron James, Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudamire, and Tim Duncan /Ginobili that they are also a cut above the rest. Just about every elite team has a player a cut above the rest. Kobe is right there, I think it is easily debatable if he is better then them. They all bring something different to the table.

365

Just to expound... ultimately, it's better to compare basketball players with similar basketball players. So for Kobe, it's more sensible to simply compare him with other shooting guards.

Metrics work better with baseball because you can't really get height advantages or speed advantages at the plate. If you can hit you can hit. If you can't, well, you're Juan Pierre.

367

I'd say right now that Kobe vs Chris Paul or LeBron James is very close. Dwight Howard is just amazing. So, to TC's point, there is room for a debate.

It's ridiculous for me to pick nits here, we're talking about an entire crop of great players in the NBA right now. I'd take any one of those players to be a part of my franchise.

352
Not trying to offend here but that is one of the most outrageous posts that I have ever read on this site IMO.
How many of those 21 better players have scored 81 points in a modern day game? The only guy that ever scored more than that was one of the most dominant centers ever and it was done in a whole different era of the game. There are so many facts and figures that can be argued about why each of those guys belongs on that list and why they don't that it's easier not to. I don't want anyone to think that I'm just using the 81 point performance as the sole criteria as to why Kobe is better than all those guys on the list but ask yourself this: will you, in your lifetime, with the game being what it is now, ever see a player score that many points again? The answer is more than likely going to be no, but that's not to say it can't happen. My point is you almost have to be one of the best ever to even accomplish a feat like that. I just don't see the likes of LeBron or Garnett ever doing anything close to that, or winning a championship for that matter.

Has there ever been any research on whether winning or losing arbitration has any effect on subsequent year performance? It seems a long shot, but I was wondering if there would be any significant effect. Any hypotheses?

370 I agree with you that Kobe is a great player but you can't measure greatness based on 1 game, not matter how good it was.

Weil Leitch chatting at the Post.

http://tinyurl.com/2wyuce

Is Shawn Green one of the greatest hitters ever because he had 19 total bases in one game? No one else has done that.

372
I know, that's why I wrote this sentence:

I don't want anyone to think that I'm just using the 81 point performance as the sole criteria as to why Kobe is better than all those guys

374
If Shawn Green averaged 10-12 total bases per game, then he'd almost have to be in the conversation. But he doesn't. You can't cross compare baseball stats with basketball stats.

352 I guess I am missing your arguement. What else are you using to support your position? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck here; I really don't see what else you are saying.

My reference in 377 should have been 375 not 352.

Jon,

It would probably be too much to post the answers on here, but I have always found the Apple support forums to be extremely helpful. I imagine you could find all your answers just by using the search function in the forums, and you should be good to go.

Wait, this will work

for importing email: http://tinyurl.com/2pkqms

for setting up account: http://tinyurl.com/yj8t4n

Let me know if those don't lead you in the right direction.

Isn't Kobe now only trailing Wilt and MJ for most 40 plus games?

379 - The e-mail part is done, thanks in part to Bob. Following the instructions didn't work very smoothly, but eventually it happened.

The main problem seemed to be that importing large files like iMovies across the firewire cable from my old computer was causing it to shut down.

I am now on Day 3 of being Mr. Mom to my 3 month old. All you Mom's out there, props where props are due. Work is easy compared to this and I have a great, happy little boy.

377
You're not being a smart aleck at all :)
My point in my initial post was that there are too may points to argue as to why this guy belongs as one of the greats and why that guy doesn't. I was just trying to illustrate that only one other guy in the history of the NBA has scored more than 81 points in a game. Obviously that was Wilt and he is generally regarded by all as one of the best players ever. To be in that company, you almost have to be great. Strictly opinion of course, but I hope that makes sense.

Stan Kasten on chemistry: "He doesn't believe in chemistry or character when building a team, unless those things affect how the players swing the bat and throw the ball. It's only a problem when it hurts what happens on the field. "Too much is made of chemistry. We've seen horrible locker rooms succeed and a team of choir boys fail. It takes talent and a great manager to win."

via Cap Punishment (http://tinyurl.com/28qvuq)

383 I am clueless about how to measure greatness in a BB player other than just watching them.
Iverson scores lot of points but he takes a lot of shots. Are teams better or worse for him being there? Having watched him play some I think he is a very good player but I don't think his PPG proves it.
It makes for great discussions though.

384 I think Bonds believes in chemistry.

352
I don't have a real problem with anyone on your list, except maybe Lebron. He seems certain to one day pass Kobe, but hasn't yet.

So, Lurch got LASIK surgery. And get this, for his hitting. I wonder if his sports psychologist messed his swing up.

35 ppg for an entire season I think is the better number to use with Kobe's scoring abilities. Not many people have ever done that. I think Kobe deserves to win at least 1 MVP award (and I think he should have won the year he averaged 35 a game). Maybe he's not the flat-out best player in the league but he's consistently in the top 5 or so. He also is a top-notch defender. You can't really say that about Lebron or Nash or a few other "elite" players.

Kobe's career scoring average is brought down by his 2 "development" years.

380 Yes Kobe is 3rd there.

Iverson is not a great player and is probably the most overrated player of his generation for exactly the reason you mention. Anyone can score points if they shoot enough.

Kobe has never been the best player in the league. Ever. It is complete Laker bias to say he's the best player in the league today. Sure he makes plays that no one else can make. Unless you watch Amare on a daily basis, or Ginobilli, or Bosch, or LeBron, or any other elite player. Kobe does not have the patent on incredible plays, some here only think he does but that is because the only basketball they watch is Laker basketball.

387 LeBron on that list ahead of Kobe is absolutely crazy.

386
Do you think Bonds will find a job this year? Does anyone think that Bonds will find a job this year and if so, on what team?

There are merely 38 hours left to get your 2008 Dodger Thoughts / True Blue LA projections in! The deadline is tomorrow night at midnight. So far I have 19 entries for batting, and (I believe) 8 for pitching. Here's what I'm looking for:

1) BA/OBP/SLG for the 10 "regulars" on offense
2) ERA/WHIP for the starters and main relievers

Feel free to post in the comments here, or at True Blue LA -- http://tinyurl.com/2ry3m4. I will post the community average results shortly thereafter.

Thanks!

390 Michael Jordan called Kobe the best player in the league once, so it's not all Laker bias.

390 Why do you guys keep comparing Kobe with guys like Amare and Bosh? LeBron and Ginobli alright, but Kobe Bryant is a shooting guard not a power forward.

394 Shaq said it last night too.

Anyone can score points if they shoot enough.

Probably wasn't meant to apply to slow, 5'8" 37 year olds with no hops, like myself. I can jack it up all night, and not make a dent in the scoring column. Check that, I probably can't make it up and down the court all night.

I'll suggest the following modifiction. Anyone can score points if they shoot enough, are left largely unguarded, and are not expected to get back on defense. Anyone already employed as a pro basketball player can score points if they shoot enough.

394 Jordan may be biased by the similarity of Kobe's style of play to his own. Jeez, I can't believe I'm being drawn in to Laker Thoughts.

393 I will try to think of projections today while I'm at work.

So what's new in the Dodgers world this morning?

390
Kobe has never been the best player in the league. Ever.

That is complete opinion and I whole heartedly disagree. I for one, have the NBA package and watch all the western conference teams on a regular basis as I have done for years now. So I do get to see the likes of Amare, Ginobilli, Duncan, Nash, McGrady, etc...
While certainly all talented players in their own right, they do not possess the individual skills of Kobe. Nobody does IMO. All those guys are great at certain aspects of the game and make the guys around them better as well but Kobe is the complete package. He can do it all and he can do it all well.

392 He can still hit. I don't know if he can still play the OF.

Would he take a low paying contract to DH with lots of incentives?

Are teams going to blackball him because he is arrogant? By now we realize that many others have done PED's besides him and they are going play this year so why not Bonds?

I have to disagree with the idea that Kobe is not a great passer. Just in watching him get the ball to first Shaq and now Pau, he is certainly an elite passer in my eyes.

Jacob and I need to go one on one. First to 10 wins. Or the guy who hasn't dropped dead. Or the leader when it gets dark after we've been shooting at the basket for 10 hours.

402 Those are all fair points, but I think he'll fail to find a job for 2 reasons - he's under indictment, and no team's fan base will accept him.

When a baseball player says something we take it with a grain of salt. For example if Joe Morgan said that Juan Pierre is a catalyst that any team would be happy to have we would take exception.
I think the same holds true for basketball players or players in any professional sport. If you are going to base your argument on the "opinion" of players, that will fall on my deaf ears. If you want to use PPG, Kobe will lead the league. I will counter with PER which shows him the 7th best player in the game. We could do this all day, just as someone can point to Ichiro's batting average and say he is the best player in baseball, while I would point to his EQA and say, hold on a minute.

404 I'm giving up close to a foot. I'd rather go 3 on 3 - planners vs. librarians - under the same rules you otherwise suggest.

Is there a way to read ACPI logs on Macs, or does Steve Jobs not think you can handle the truth? Funky shutoffs always sound like over-heating, to me.

I do not like the Lakers. I was a big Jordan fan, still am. I go to Clipper games and prefer them big time over the Lakers.

I hate how Kobe behaved in Colorado and in the aftermath. I hate how he treated some teammates. I don't like his ego nor his image. He is not a role model.

However, he is one of the best to ever play the game when you consider all the factors, talent and desire to win being the top two.

He is a great player and a winner, even if he also whines. Anyone who cannot see that is simply not being objective in my opinion.

Seriously, like Barry Bonds, he is unliked by many but a talent to be appreciated in and of itself.

If I was to base my opinion on Kobe using only my subjective criteria I would have said that Kobe is the best player in the 21st century.
I can't do that when the latest state of the art statistics say he isn't, and has never been the best player in the league.

So in this instant, I don't believe my own eyes.

405 Maybe I am a cynic but I think if he OPSed 1.045 (like he did last year) for someone and helped turn a .500 team into a contender the fans would be pretty accepting. It's hard to jeer a guy who just hit a 3 run HR for your team.

274 Future DodgerBlues headline: Joe Torre - Ugliest Delilah Ever

400 Ryan Howard ruined aribtration forever, that'll be relevant pretty soon.

404 Hah. Who gets to take the ball out first? You have to shoot for that!

I remember trying to shoot for teams, we usually ended up shooting for team captains because free throws are hard up until you turn like 14 or something.

402 I was with you until I read 405 which pretty much sums it up I think.

411 I absolutely agree. I just don't imagine any GM is going to take that plunge.

The Mariners are in a situation where they have to sign Bonds, but they won't. The Padres and Braves could also use him, that's pretty much it for contending teams.

I would like to see him go to the Yankees just to create the most absurd lineup ever.

413 How did he do that?

418 Got 10 million in his first year. It's really not unreasonable for Russ to ask for six or seven now.

410
So you measure a players worth/greatness in all sports strictly by what the latest state of the art statistics say, not factoring in you're own observations at all?

LAT will curse my name but I wouldn't mind seeing him play LF for us. As long as he leaves his clubhouse entourage in Oakland he's welcome to play for us. I have totally different feelings about Bonds today then I did two years ago.

410
So you measure a players worth/greatness in all sports strictly by what the latest state of the art statistics say, not factoring in you're own observations at all?

421 I'd say that, but I know that he'd be replacing Kemp and would put Pierre in right. That's a scary thought if I ever heard one.

421- I can see having completely different feelings about the people out to get him, today, than you had two years ago, but what's changed about him? Did he get less scummy in the last two years? Has he called the IRS and worked out a deal to pay his back taxes?

What do yo know about him, now, that you didn't before?

421 I just cursed your name, too.

Bonds would be a huge upgrade at DH over Aubrey Huff for the Orioles although even Bonds can't make them a contender.

I'll let the Logo speak for me, in an interview in the Boston Globe last December.

"Garnett is very good, but if he had the pressure on him to score like Kobe does every night, there's a difference," said West. "Kevin is going to be a great, great player every night in all facets of the game.

"But the other one has a little bit different kind of cachet to him. You're going to pay to see Kevin Garnett play, but you're just going to see a tremendously good basketball player.

"The degree of excitement with Kobe Bryant is like going to an action movie instead of seeing a great film. Kevin Garnett would be in a great film and Kobe Bryant would be the action-hero figure. He's going to supply the jumps off the tops of bridges, dunks, going through 10 people, driving to make a layup.

"Kevin Garnett is just going to be the steady, steady, steady guy there every night. But I think from an all-around standpoint, Kobe is the best."

Now, Jerry West is biased, he traded for Kobe and remains in his corner during all of his past issues. But the man has seen more NBA basketball (nearly 50 years) and was a pretty good player himself.

Here are some other things to consider:
9 times All-NBA Team (1st Team - 5 times)
Only other contemporaries to be on more total All-NBA teams are Shaq and Duncan, Kidd has made the same number of 1st-Team selections.

7 times All-NBA Defensive Team(1st team - 5 times) Duncan, Kidd, Payton, and Garnett have made more All-Defensive teams.

Also, while Shaq was the dominant force on those championship years, there is no doubt that they don't win without the combo, Kobe destroyed San Antonio in the 2001 playoffs, he calmly made game winning shots in several of those games. Shaq won the Finals MVP in large part because the East had no one who could defend him and the Lakers rightly ran their offense through the Big Aristotle.

I have always wondered why Kobe causes such passion, there is often no middle ground, you either like him or hate him or at least have to point out his shooting pct. His assists per game are comparable to most shooting guards in NBA history (yes, including Jordan), he is constantly on the floor and he has shown that if he has guys who can produce, he will share the ball.

410 Do you also think Leon Powe is a better player than Paul Pierce?

I would rather have 25 Juan Pierre clones in Dodger blue than one Barry Bonds.

I think that most Dodger fans would agree with me. Bonds in a Dodger uniform? Never.

ToyCannon, you aren't serious, are you?

420
Yes, because I have come to realize that my own observations are clouded with prejudice.

429 Me, too. Me, too.

If Bonds had spent the bulk of his career with any other team than the Giants, I wouldn't mind him playing for the Dodgers either. The fact that I have that old school style hatred for San Francisco simply wouldn't let me be a fan of it if it actually did happen. He's just another in a long line of MLB juicers IMO now. He just happens to be one of the best juiced or un-juiced players ever. My disdain for him always stemmed from the fact that he was a Giant who would always hurt the Dodgers and not that he was a juiced up jerkface.

429

I'd agree with you, pa, but if it happened it wouldn't be unprecedented. I'm still trying to erase Karl Malone from my Lakers Memory.

---

Yesterday, I think the consensus was that the Dodgers are set at almost every position. When was the last time this happened?

How would you rate defense up the middle now with Andruw Jones in CF? It seems fairly good to me.

429 Why do you dislike him?

424
That he was not unique in his desire to get better by whatever avenue was available.
Plus I've had three years of Jeff Kent so anything is palatable at this point.

An alternative to NBA MVP voting, a better way might be to look at All-NBA selections since each position is accounted for (in theory, of course). Ignoring 3rd team selections (since they haven't awarded 3rd team every year), how does Kobe compare to others.

Kobe - 5 1st team, 2 2nd team
Malone - 11/2
Kareem - 10/5
West - 10/2
Cousy - 10/2
Jordan - 10/1
Pettit - 10/1
Baylor - 10/0
Oscar - 9/2
Dr.J - 9/2 (counts ABA)
Duncan - 9/1
Magic - 9/1
Bird - 9/1
Barry - 9/1 (includes ABA)
Shaq - 8/2
Wilt - 7/3
Hakeem - 6/3
Mikan - 6/0
Barkley - 5/5
Havlicek - 4/7
Gervin - 5/4 (includes ABA)
Russell - 3/8
Moses - 4/4
Robinson - 4/2
Frazier - 4/2
Stockton - 2/6
Garnett - 3/3
AI - 3/3
Jerry Lucas - 3/2
Pippen - 3/2
Isiah - 3/2
Dirk - 3/2
Nash - 3/0
T-Mac - 2/3
Ewing - 1/6
'Nique - 1/4
Lebron - 1/2
McHale - 1/0 (I was shocked by how low this was)
Wade - 0/2

I'm sure I left a lot of people off.

If you hate the Giants, then the best way to stick the knife in and wriggle it so you destroy the entrails would be to sign Barry and win the World Championship they could never do while he played with them.

427
Great post.

437

Wouldn't it be enough to just win the world championship?

Ok I can make that one better...

Win the world championship vs the Angels!

437
Ha! Good point.

434 Why do I dislike Bonds? That is like asking conservative Republicans why they dislike Hillary. You'll get a slew of angry rhetoric and observations, none compelling enough to be reasonable. There is nothing you'll be able to say that would sway them from their deeply rooted dislike of her, even if they respect her for her service and dedication to her nation.

From the core of my being, I despise Mr. Bonds. Why? That is complicated and perhaps irrationale, but it is honest.

I haven't developed a level of trust with modern basketball statistics that I have with baseball, because I haven't wrapped my mind around how to account for the exclusivity of one ball.

Baseball is easier to measure and judge, due to the overwhelming amount of individual matchups. I'm not saying the new basketball stats are bad, it's just that I haven't been convinced yet. That probably says more about me than the stats, though.

I will say this though: Bill Russell is 105th all time in player efficiency rating. I vehemently disagree with that.

non-laker biased OPINIONS of Basketball experts who said, "kobe's the best player":

Michael Jordan
Kareem
Scottie Pippen
Amare Stoudamire
Lebron
Chris Bosh
Bill Walton
John Salley
Charlie Rosen

Just to list a few, and the majority of columnist around the country. excluding of course, the biased former Lakers, like, Jerry West, Magic, Byron Scott, James Worthy,etc.

Toy Cannon, ur eyes aren't deceiving u, he really is the best player in the league. u can't judge a player's greatness in basketball by being a "fantasy league" expert which to me is kind of evident in reading ur opinions. no offense, but kobe's individual superiority in basketball is a fact. not an opinion.

427
I don't think saying he's not the best basketball player in the league is hating him.

Many woman hate him because they believe he is a rapist. You might have to be a woman to understand that but I don't think so.

However it should still be easy to separate the man from the basketball player and the basketball player is a great player but not the greatest. Paul Gasol and the emergence of Bynum is what has put the Lakers back on the path of a championship team. Kobe is still Kobe, a great player who will now look even better because he now has a great team around him. If I put Kobe on the Hornets, would they still have the best record in the West? I doubt it.

427
Great stuff as always, BH.

442 My heart tells me that Bill Russell is the greatest player of all time (even though I hate the Celtics). I could not even attempt to prove it and I am far from certain that I am even correct.

443
John Salley?

444 Why do you doubt it?

443 This is a losing battle in Laker land. You don't think you'd get a different answer every time you asked that question depending on what great performance they just watched?

442
I think the evolution of the game over the years has a lot to do with why basketball stats are not to be read as they appear.Your Bill Russell comment is proof of that I would think.
The game of baseball has been fundamentally the same for what seems like ages. Sure there have been trends of things through the years but the overall game has remained the same. The landscape of basketball and it's rules have changed dramatically over the life of the sport.

The McCourt Cabinet of High Achievers is growing again.

http://tinyurl.com/2dmqp3

sigh

Rank
35 Leon Powe, BOS 19.57
36 Paul Pierce, BOS 19.43
37 Josh Howard, DAL 19.42
38 Richard Hamilton, DET 19.27
39 Tracy McGrady, HOU 18.94

Clearly, PER is the best way to judge a basketball player

I love the fact that a baseball site dedicated to the belief that performance analysis is something to be embraced runs back to into the safe womb of subjective opinion when it has to do with numbers that don't agree with their perception in another sport.

428
The answer is probably no. In all likelyhood his rating would fall with more playing time. Sample size applies everywhere as does the common sense application of analysis.

I love the fact that a baseball site dedicated to the belief that performance analysis is something to be embraced runs back to into the safe womb of subjective opinion when it has to do with numbers that don't agree with their perception in another sport.

428
The answer is probably no. In all likelyhood his rating would fall with more playing time. Sample size applies everywhere as does the common sense application of analysis.

Gary Sheffield has called Scott Boras a "bad person." I just miss D4P when items like that come across the wire. It's like setting him up with a batting practice fastball.

"Shooting," he (Bill Russell) said, "is of relatively little importance in a player's overall game."

"I played because I was dedicated to being the best. I was part of a team, and I dedicated myself to making that team the best."

451 Jon, Don't be surprised when Vin Scully is named Special Assistant to the Vice Chairman and Announcer Emeritus.

I never said PER is the end. As Eric Enders noted before there are at least 2 different performance metrics that dispute the theory that Kobe Bryant is the best player in the league.

454 I'm also finding that ironic. Basketball stats aren't nearly as advanced as baseball ones yet, but that fact that there are multiple systems that say Kobe isn't the best should at least be considered.

460 Do those systems factor in defense? Do they take into account opponents double teaming a specific player? Sabremetrics are great in baseball, but aren't that great for basketball.

Joe Posnanski has me excited to follow Tampa Bay this year

461
Because you know Garnett and LeBron and all those other elite players are never double teamed. Only Kobe, but wait he's triple teamed. Which would be strange because then you would think he'd have a decent assist rate.

I just got to wondering.....what if Andruw Jones hits a lot of home runs this year?

464

That would be really fun to watch. I haven't attended a Dodger game with a player like that for a long time.

Coming from someone who knows nothing about basketball, Lebron seems to be better than Kobe at pretty much every basic category, from points to steals to rebounds. That says something to me.

Stats in whatever sport that is being discussed are definitely relevant and worth being noted. That being said, I don't think stats are the be all end all of any kind of evaluation. You have to factor in the human element whatever it may be, that simply can't be quantified in numbers because of it's unpredictability. I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you only let stats determine your opinion or if you only let what you see determine your opinion. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Just my opinon...

463 I'm not arguing that Kobe is a better player than LeBron. I'm arguing that he's not 7th best player in the league just because PER told you so.

460 It's considered, it's just ridiculous. He is the most dominant shooting guard in the game, hands down, not even close.

464
Do you mean you get a run if the ball goes over the fence in fair territory? I've heard tales of that feat, but I've always dismissed them as fairy tales told to little kids to scare them into becoming economists.

466
I agree with you; I was only arguing that Lebron's career to date isn't better than Kobe's, and he shouldn't have been on Eric Enders' list above.

466
I think that's because LeBron is surrounded by riff-raff and he has to be the one to make things happen. Kobe has talent around him which puts less pressure on him to put up big numbers every night. That doesn't necessarily equate to Lebron being better.

464 I think good things will happen for the Dodgers if he does.

472 Shouldn't he have more assists then?

This might be the most spirited non-baseball discussion I've ever seen on Dodger Thoughts. The only thing stopping it now is a NPUT.

Molly: My feeling is, why wouldn't Andruw hit some Home Runs this year? I would be quite shocked if he hit less than 25 this year. If he did, the Dodgers could be a serious contender.

But I don't want to jinx it!!

Hoo boy, time to correct my post again.

If Andruw hit 25 or more, the Dodgers could be a serious contender

New post up top.

Keep in mind he hit 26 last year and was worse than Juan Pierre.

478 Why did you have to bring him up?