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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
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12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Re: Kemp
2008-04-05 14:38
by Jon Weisman

Maybe I'm getting soft, but I actually didn't think it was a big deal that Juan Pierre started over Matt Kemp today. Peavy isn't exactly the best medicine for a slumping hitter. I'd still rather see Kemp play, but I just sort of wrote it off.

Certainly, though, there are others who feel more strongly about it. Ken Gurnick of gets some quotes on the matter.

Joe Torre: Kemp will "play most of the time. I didn't think Jake Peavy was a good matchup for him."

Kemp: "I'm trying to do too much. I just need to let the game come to me. Shoot, I know I can hit. I need to get back to my game plan. I know what I have to do. I'm not worried at all. It's just my approach. I'm trying to get 10 hits and 10 RBIs in one at-bat. You can't do things like that. It's going to turn around real quick."

At the bottom of the story, Gurnick adds the following paragraph:

Pierre is making his second start in five games after losing the left-field job to Andre Ethier. General manager Ned Colletti said he received a call from Pierre's agent asking for clarification of his role and Colletti said he delivered a message that the better Pierre performed in the opportunities he had, the more playing time he was likely to earn.

That makes sense, of course, but again, again, again, Pierre needs to be evaluated relative to what is expected of the other outfielders, not in a vacuum.

  • Gurnick also has this fun story about Brad Penny throwing warmup tosses with a fan today.

  • Kansas City added Hideo Nomo to its bullpen today by purchasing his contract.

  • Comments (142)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2008-04-05 15:02:08
    1.   scareduck
    Re 258 in the last thread, Karros was traded and left the Dodgers after he figured his status as a Beloved Fan Favorite should have saved him. He was petulant about his exit, and in the first year he was broadcasting, he wasn't shy about letting people know.
    2008-04-05 15:03:52
    2.   Lexinthedena
    I really enjoy watching DeWitt at the plate.
    2008-04-05 15:03:53
    3.   silverwidow
    It's TRON TRON TIME! This guy is now one of my favorites.
    2008-04-05 15:04:26
    4.   scareduck
    3 - ???
    2008-04-05 15:05:56
    5.   silverwidow
    4 Translation: Troncoso is gonna pitch and I think he rocks.
    2008-04-05 15:07:23
    6.   Still love Campy
    "General manager Ned Colletti said he received a call from Pierre's agent asking for clarification of his role..."

    The next call will come from his sweet, grey-haired mother who doesn't want anyone to be mean to her son.

    2008-04-05 15:07:41
    7.   Bluebleeder87

    I remember some bitterness by Karros but like the eagles song says "Anger is love disappointed" I don't hold anything against him for saying some of the stuff he said.

    2008-04-05 15:08:30
    8.   ROC
    Best script for the 9th? Pee Wee gets the big hit despite Martin lining off his head this morning.
    2008-04-05 15:08:50
    9.   Lexinthedena
    TRON....I love it....

    Tronsformer just came to me...I like that too.....

    He's gonna be great this year.

    2008-04-05 15:09:00
    10.   Frip
    6 Do you have a link for that?
    2008-04-05 15:10:37
    11.   Bluebleeder87
    I think we need to come up with a cool Troncoso nick...
    2008-04-05 15:11:28
    12.   fanerman
    10 It's in Jon's post.
    2008-04-05 15:11:32
    13.   Ricardo
    11. Good idea! Any suggestions? Mine is: Ramontron
    2008-04-05 15:11:39
    14.   scareduck
    5 - I was thinking maybe we were about to see Jeff Bridges ride a lightcycle onto the field or something.
    2008-04-05 15:12:08
    15.   silverwidow
    9 RoboTron...Minotaur...Bison...Golden God...
    2008-04-05 15:12:25
    16.   Still love Campy
    10 -- it's in Jon's text above.
    2008-04-05 15:13:50
    17.   Bluebleeder87
    2008-04-05 15:15:02
    18.   D4P
    Huh: a leadoff hitter who takes pitches.
    2008-04-05 15:15:05
    19.   scareduck
    17 - I think the Dodgers will need Trevor Hoffman's help for that.
    2008-04-05 15:15:09
    20.   Bob Hendley
    Why send Peavy back out there? I don't get it.
    2008-04-05 15:16:55
    21.   scareduck
    Not how the script said it was supposed to go!
    2008-04-05 15:17:44
    22.   nofatmike
    Man, Martin has been awful.
    2008-04-05 15:18:16
    23.   MollyKnight


    2008-04-05 15:18:50
    24.   Bluebleeder87
    Oh well, tomorrow is another day, this is Jake Peavy after all...
    2008-04-05 15:20:05
    25.   Bob Hendley
    2008-04-05 15:20:16
    26.   StolenMonkey86
    22 - I shudder to think what would happen if Pierre was a catcher.
    2008-04-05 15:20:19
    27.   D4P
    If Pierre's agent is contacting Ned after a mere 5 games, it's hard to envision this kind of platoon being sustainable. Team Player Pierre doesn't appear to be content to sit on the bench, and it's looking as if he'll ask to be traded if he's "only" starting 40% of the games.
    2008-04-05 15:21:33
    28.   Frip
    That game was oddly un-painful. Peavy is like a no nonsense doctor who knows how to stick you quick and painless.
    2008-04-05 15:27:16
    29.   Bob Hendley
    28 - Did we forget to say "thank you"?
    2008-04-05 15:33:41
    30.   JoeyP
    Isnt a slumping Kemp still better than Juan Pierre?

    And, how many games does one have to play to reason that Kemp is slumping?

    2008-04-05 15:37:13
    31.   scareduck
    29 ... sir, may I have another?
    2008-04-05 15:43:33
    32.   Robert Fiore
    You might give some thought to adopting the "Where you can watch it" feature like Forum Blue & Gold does for game days, seeing as how the game might be on one of what, four or five different channels?
    2008-04-05 15:48:08
    33.   silverwidow
    Jon Meloan starts for Vegas tonight.
    2008-04-05 15:48:59
    34.   Dark Horse
    30 - Is he? The question is mooted since Pierre is playing down to his usual, miserable standards. But what we would consider a "good day" from Pierre (say, 3 for 4 with a walk and two steals, with no chances in the field to donate extra bases) is probably better than Kemp going 0 for 5. Absent a crystal ball, I'd rather see Kemp every day of the week than Pierre, but today of all days and this early into the season, I can't get worked up about it.
    2008-04-05 15:50:40
    35.   Gen3Blue
    That Penny having to find a fan to warm up with is really strange in the context that he emerged unable to make an effective start.
    2008-04-05 16:02:47
    36.   Bob Hendley
    35 - JP should have been there. Perhaps we need to clarify his role?
    2008-04-05 16:07:42
    37.   Paul Scott
    You are getting soft. And I think your memory is too short as well.

    There is no way to know that Kemp is "slumping" after 4 games. Kemp will always likely have a lot of strikeouts. Unless he turns into Bonds or Pujols, that's just the way heavy sluggers and walkers work. Torre sighting Kemp's 6 Ks in 15 ABs as indicating that something is wrong reminds me of the hated one's assumptions about Choi after he started with something like 10 K's in his first 11 ABs in 2005. I also remember talk about Choi needing to sit because certain pitchers were "not a good match for him." So instead we got Grabowski or The Bad Catcher playing first instead.

    Just like Choi was always a lot better than the alternatives, Kemp is a lot better than Pierre - even if he is "slumping." There is no good reason to start Pierre unless Jones, Ethier or Kemp need a rest - a situation that, frankly, should be very rare.

    2008-04-05 16:19:43
    38.   Bumsrap
    Choi had the slowest bat I can remember seeing. No amount of stats can hide a slow bat.
    2008-04-05 16:21:49
    39.   Bob Hendley
    That would be Ch-i.
    2008-04-05 16:26:47
    40.   Bluebleeder87

    It will be interesting to see how he does in the MPH department thrue out the entire season, I hope I'm proven wrong & he turns out to be even better or a good enough starter, I'm rooting for him.

    2008-04-05 16:45:58
    41.   68elcamino427
    SI has a great article re: Torre and the Dodgers on page 40.
    I saw this at the barber shop today. One of the rare occasions that I venture out from the basement. It took be awhile to find the my way out, as I had to move several large piles of empty soda bottles, beer cans, corn chip bags, along with other sundry items.
    Why did I even bother getting a haircut?
    2008-04-05 16:48:07
    42.   StolenMonkey86
    27 - We have to remember, Pierre is on the bench in the first place because of Spring Training. The Ethier-Jones-Kemp outfield was not the result of a triumph of reason, but more like a broken clock having the right time.
    2008-04-05 16:52:01
    43.   Bob Loblaw
    You're right ,Jon, there's no reason to get worked up about an occasional start by Pierre. Peavy is not a good matchup for a struggling Kemp.

    I was thinking Torre might start Pierre again tomorrow to utilize his speed against Young, with Ethier sitting until I checked Young's splits and noticed that Andre has an .846 slg. pct. vs. Young. Then I checked Jones: 1.20 slg. pct. vs. Young. Then I checked Kemp: 4 k's in 5 ab's. If Pierre does start tomorrow, it's likely to be Kemp sitting again.

    It's kinda funny how our perceptions can taint our thinking. When I saw Young face the Dodgers 2 years ago he stifled us on 2 hits - both by Jeff Kent, but apparently those are the only 2 hits Kent has ever had against him in 18 ab's. Could be a good time to start Hu?

    2008-04-05 16:59:34
    44.   Doctor
    It's just too much tinkering. Take your best 8 players and send them out there for days, weeks, maybe even months before you start making changes... otherwise, the trends can't play themselves out. That's my one gripe with Torre so far. We still have not see the same batting order twice, who knows what Billingsly's arm is ready for at this point, etc... Can't say for sure, but if Kemp hits in the 7 spot and plays 5 full games at this point I'd bet he wouldn't be searching for his swing/ rhythm. Is Pierre better suited to face Peavy? Maybe. But its also with developing players you think can be good or great without masterminding matchups the first week of the season.
    2008-04-05 16:59:46
    45.   68elcamino427
    To Bluebleeder87
    In the last thread you mentioned that every pitcher should know how to pitch to Jones.

    Do you mean that the pitchers should show him fastballs outside, off the plate? That they shoud mix in breaking pitches for strikes only on the outside of the plate?

    Is it true that if a right handed batter tries to pull outside curveballs that the result is usually a grouder to short or third?

    Jones did go to the opposite field to drive in a run last night.
    For the most part, when Jones does hit the ball, he is hitting alot of grounders to short and third.

    2008-04-05 17:04:14
    46.   Jon Weisman
    37 - I said in the first line I'd rather see Kemp play. You don't need to make the case to me.
    2008-04-05 17:04:26
    47.   Doctor

    ... its also WORTH developing...

    2008-04-05 17:04:52
    48.   Jon Weisman
    38 - Ugh, please, let's not go down that road.
    2008-04-05 17:06:59
    49.   Vishal
    38 a slow bat just means you gotta swing early :)
    2008-04-05 17:09:21
    50.   nofatmike
    Peavy cheated:

    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2008-04-05 17:10:25
    51.   68elcamino427
    Re: Kemp

    It sounds as though Kemp knows what he needs to do to correct. Last year he was sent down and when he came back up, he had learned how to hit the ouside pitch to the opposite field--and with power--.

    I am one of Kemp's biggest fans, but until he can show that he can make consistent contact, he should have his playing time limited. Baseball is a skill game.
    If there is one thing that Pierre has shown over his career, it is that he will make consisent contact.

    2008-04-05 17:11:57
    52.   Jon Weisman
    51 - and that the ball will go 60 feet or so when he does.
    2008-04-05 17:13:33
    53.   Jon Weisman
    Strikeouts do not mean Kemp can't be productive.
    2008-04-05 17:17:34
    54.   68elcamino427
    Yeah, I know. The Bison will get himself squared away. He just needs to recapture the feeling, so that he knows what it feels like to--stay within himself--.
    As he is quoted above, it sounds like he recognizes that.
    2008-04-05 17:18:22
    55.   Vishal
    51 , 52

    i'm with jon. consistent contact is meaningless. to use an extreme example to make my point, i'd rather have a home run and 3 strikeouts than 4 weak grounders.

    2008-04-05 17:19:34
    56.   StolenMonkey86
    I had a nickname for what Kenny Rogers did in the 06 World Series when his fingers looked like that. It looks like Peavy was also throwing said rule 1 violation.
    2008-04-05 17:20:39
    57.   underdog
    Ugh, as I feared, today was a sucky sports day. I had a feeling - and this doesn't exactly make me Nostradamus - that the Dodgers would not defeat Peavy, and UCLA would have a hard time with an amazingly talented Memphis team. Alas, it all came true.

    The Dodger game really doesn't bum me out that much because, forget it Chinatown, it's Jake.

    2008-04-05 17:22:29
    58.   StolenMonkey86
    57 - Not a bad day for me, though. The sun was shining, I got out of work close to on time, and I had Peavy starting in my head to head league.
    2008-04-05 17:23:19
    59.   underdog
    And I didn't have a problem with the Dodgers sitting Kemp today. He may not officially be "slumping" but as one who's watched all of their first 5 games on TV it'd be hard to deny that he's at least pressing a lot. I just don't see how batting against Peavy is good medicine for that, especially after playing last night. But as long as he gets the next few starts then I'm okay with it. If they keep sitting him, then I'd begin to wonder and grit my teeth more.
    2008-04-05 17:27:06
    60.   StolenMonkey86
    50 - The half Ozzie Guillen theory says we should bean Jim Edmonds soon so we can offer them Pierre.

    The other half of Ozzie wants Pierre so he can play smartball.

    2008-04-05 17:36:31
    61.   underdog
    Btw, catching up on comments in previous thread after watching game on Tivo (and fastforwarding through a lot of it)... Joe Beimel's intro comments on the lineup were hysterically funny.

    Okay, let's get 'em tomorrow! Chins up!

    Happy evening.

    2008-04-05 17:36:51
    62.   68elcamino427
    Ok, let me clarify.
    Loney and Either and Kemp have power swings.
    By that I mean that they are short and quick from their release point with their hands and body to the ball. They are then extending and long out in front of the plate. They are looking to drive the ball, creating tremendous bat speed. Loney and Ethier strike out. They also hit the ball.
    When they are missing the ball on their swings, they don't appear to be missing it--wildly--. The bat is usually, not always, but usually within a couple of bat barrels of the ball. They are--seeing-- the ball, recogizing the the pitch. This is one reason that "Crazy Eyes" is a good nickname for Loney. His vision is extra-extraordinary.
    Kemp has shown that he can do these things too. He's just not doing them right now. He will though. He has some of the best coaches on the planet by his side to help him.
    2008-04-05 17:38:21
    63.   Bob Hendley
    Was that a caped dog?
    2008-04-05 18:17:27
    64.   StolenMonkey86
    This is what I get for living on the East Coast though - I only read the Brad Penny line. What else did Beimel say in the lineup?
    2008-04-05 18:18:29
    65.   Gen3Blue
    36 A good point.
    2008-04-05 18:22:46
    66.   Gen3Blue
    I've said Loney and Kemp were due for a slump. I'm glad I've been wrong about Loney, and 5 games is not enough to define anything. They also have a right to work through it, and I'm totally confident they will both rake at some point this year.
    2008-04-05 18:31:05
    67.   Vishal
    this kansas-unc game is amazing
    2008-04-05 18:49:07
    68.   68elcamino427
    Ned Colletti said he received a call from Pierre's agent...

    Just wondering if Pierre might be willing to re-structure his contract if that meant he could be traded to a team where he would start?

    2008-04-05 18:57:31
    69.   natepurcell

    union wont allow him.

    2008-04-05 19:01:20
    70.   Who Is Karim Garcia

    Exactly what Nate said, this isn't the NFL. Our only real chance of unloading him at the moment is to swap him for an equally bad contract, eat most of the contract in a trade, or include some young talent or attractive players so that the other team has an easier time swallowing his contract.

    On a side note: Nate, do you still post over on the site?

    2008-04-05 19:04:06
    71.   Bluebleeder87
    Jones did go to the opposite field to drive in a run last night.

    I wish he'd do that more often, I don't have a chart of were most of his hits go but judging by his swing I'm guessing he gets most of his hits to leftfield or leftcenter.

    2008-04-05 19:05:41
    72.   Who Is Karim Garcia
    71 Jones reminds me of Adrian Beltre (sans the anomaly year) when all of his body seems to be sliding toward third when the pitch is on the outer half of the plate.
    2008-04-05 19:05:57
    73.   natepurcell

    I like the prospect and draft threads.

    2008-04-05 19:09:03
    74.   StolenMonkey86
    71- Now you do

    2008-04-05 19:09:22
    75.   underdog
    64 I wish I could remember more of them offhand. Besides Brad "I don't know if I want to be a redneck or a Hollywood starlet" Penny, there was:

    Blake "Third Baseman by Default (though he's been doing a great job)" DeWitt.

    Juan "Hat size 6 3/4" Pierre.

    Rafael Furcal was "The Latino......" er, I can't remember that one.

    James "Bug Eyes" Loney? Something akin to "Crazy Eyes" but different.

    Anyone remember the others? I would've saved my Tivo of the game but wanted to erase all memory of it.

    2008-04-05 19:10:53
    76.   StolenMonkey86
    My unscientific eyeballing of the spray chart yields this:

    Jones's groundouts are always to the left side. His flyouts are random, his homers and singles are largely pulled, and his doubles are random.

    2008-04-05 19:21:29
    77.   Indiana Jon
    Meloan starting in Vegas tonight.
    2008-04-05 19:35:32
    78.   68elcamino427
    That is a great observation.
    However, baseball players do occasionally re-stucture there contracts, usually in the form of deferring large sums of money for payment at a latter date.

    Arrangements like this might make moving Pierre more attractive to other teams.

    In previous discussions, someone noted that one of the only reasons that Pierre or his agent would approach Colletti would be to request a trade--when a reporter asked Colletti if he had sought out Pierre regarding his benching--.

    So I was just wondering.

    2008-04-05 19:43:20
    79.   Indiana Jon
    2 IP
    1 H
    0 ER
    1 K
    0 BB
    2008-04-05 19:45:18
    80.   Bluebleeder87

    I just scoped out the chart & the dude has always been a pull hitter (I guess that's why he's never been a good average guy) based on that I'll be happy if he gives us 25+ dingers & a good amount of runs batted in plus good D & I'll be happy I guess. I did a little B-R research (don't know what's considered good) & found these RC (runs created) stats for Jones the last 4 years: 89,113,113 & 74.

    2008-04-05 19:57:27
    81.   Indiana Jon
    Meloan is now getting Brad Pennied in the 2nd inning. Four straight singles.
    2008-04-05 20:07:45
    82.   Bluebleeder87
    Here are the NL West Centerfielders RC stats the last few years:

    Chris Young (very young, only been in the league 3 years)

    2006 - 9
    2007 - 82

    Jim Edmonds

    2004 - 144
    2005 - 101
    2006 - 59
    2007 - 47

    Willy Taveras

    2005 - 69
    2006 - 65
    2007 - 57

    Aaron Rowand

    2004 - 97
    2005 - 76
    2006 - 53
    2007 - 116

    2008-04-05 20:08:48
    83.   Bluebleeder87
    Las Vegas is a notorious hitter friendly park.
    2008-04-05 20:09:05
    84.   neuroboy002
    Ned: John Tyler? Ned Colletti here. I want to talk about Juan Pierre. He's been dividing his time between us and you. I cannot have that.

    John Tyler: Well I don't know who he is but if you want him that bad I'm not giving him up that easily.

    Ned: Oh is that so. Playing a little hardball huh Jonnyboy?

    John Tyler: How about this. You give me Pierre, I convert your concessions to all chicken no charge. Instead of hot dogs, chicken dogs. Instead of pretzels, chicken twists. Instead of beer, alcoholic chicken.
    Ned: How do you make that alcoholic chicken?

    John Tyler: Let if ferment, just like everything else.

    Ned: That stuff sounds great. All right. I'll have Pierre on the next bus.

    2008-04-05 20:14:40
    85.   Bluebleeder87
    The 51's just tide it up, let's hope Meloan pitches a little better now.
    2008-04-05 20:22:20
    86.   natepurcell
    So...we've only hit one homerun so far this season eh?
    2008-04-05 20:27:10
    87.   Indiana Jon
    86 Yeah, but wait 'til tomorrow!
    2008-04-05 20:30:36
    88.   Indiana Jon
    Greg Miller in for Meloan now.
    2008-04-05 20:36:13
    89.   Indiana Jon
    Miller two K's and a ground out to the pitcher. Control looked good.
    2008-04-05 20:37:13
    90.   sporky

    "The latino godfather" Rafael Furcal
    "My next door neighbor and carpool partner" Russell Martin
    James "Popeye" Loney
    Jeff "I should be collecting social security any day now" Kent
    "Troy from West Virginia's biggest fan" Andre Ethier
    "Man with the best cleats in the game" Andruw Jones
    "...coming in with a hat size at a whopping 6 5/8" Juan Pierre
    Blake "3rd baseman by default" DeWitt ("but he's doing a great job for us")
    Brad "I don't know if I want to be a red neck or a Hollywood starlet" Penny

    2008-04-05 20:39:48
    91.   sporky
    Upon second viewing, it actually sounds like Hollywood star, not starlet :(
    2008-04-05 20:44:13
    92.   Eric Enders
    That does make it considerably less funny.
    2008-04-05 20:48:09
    93.   Eric Stephen
    Penny playing catch with a fan was pretty cool. I'm still waiting for Josh Bard's "single" in the 1st to be changed to a Blake DeWitt error. There's still time!

    Penny really settled down after the 1st. I choose to look at the game as one the Dodgers won 1-0 over the final 8 innings. :)

    I figured Pierre would start 1 of the 2 games this weekend, so I was mentally ready for today. If Kemp sits again tomorrow, I'm going to prepare my karosene for the angry mob meeting.

    2008-04-05 20:49:32
    94.   GMac In The 909
    90 Popeye is a great nickname for Loney.
    2008-04-05 20:57:31
    95.   GMac In The 909
    94 ... especially when he is in full uniform:

    2008-04-05 21:02:04
    96.   Indiana Jon
    Miller has given up 2 runs in 2 innings, but his control hasn't been bad. 4 Ks and only 1 BB.
    2008-04-05 21:03:10
    97.   Indiana Jon
    Thats the worst Popeye costume I have ever seen.
    2008-04-05 21:21:04
    98.   madmac
    I think Bayless is crazy going pro. Was not that impressed with what I saw of him. He should stay in school.
    2008-04-05 21:22:48
    99.   underdog
    R.I.P., Charlton Heston.
    2008-04-05 21:27:44
    100.   Bluebleeder87
    If I didn't know any better I would have thunk he was getting ready to go to a mid-90's rave or something.
    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2008-04-05 21:29:57
    101.   underdog
    Wes Helms signs with the Marlins, in case anyone was worried the Dodgers were going to sign him.
    2008-04-05 21:36:58
    102.   Kevin Lewis
    I wasn't expecting much from today's game (Peavy and all)... but I am really impressed with Furcal. He is going to be huge for us this year, assuming he stays healthy.

    If I were a SD fan, I would be worried about Edmonds covering the ground in PetCo.

    2008-04-05 21:38:24
    103.   KG16
    101 - well, that's one bullet dodged, now if we can get the other Giles to go somewhere else, we can all breathe a sigh of relief.
    2008-04-05 21:38:24
    104.   Reddog
    Hearing Torre say that Kemp will play most of the time gives me great comfort. They also said on today's telecast that Ethier reminds Torre of Paul O'Neill - which occurred to me as well.

    I do think Pierre will go to Colletti and ask if he can work out a trade. I don't think Pierre will be a Dodger next season.

    2008-04-05 21:42:54
    105.   Eric Enders
    99 I guess they can finally pry that gun.

    He was great in "Touch of Evil."

    2008-04-05 21:45:08
    106.   Eric Enders
    102 Watching Edmonds try to play center field this year is going to be one of the great comic displays of our baseball-watching lives, I think. And to think Karros and Vasgersian were actually discussing in all seriousness today whether he'd be up to the task.
    2008-04-05 21:46:40
    107.   68elcamino427
    Pierre is somewhat of a lightning rod.
    I was pondering this:

    If Pierre were not in the picture--a big if, this is just a hypothetical--and Kemp or Ethier were struggling, would it be so objectionable if Young got a few starts in their place(s) while they regrouped?

    2008-04-05 21:51:49
    108.   CanuckDodger
    105 -- Wow, that was in extremely poor taste. I know a lot of people disliked Heston because of his association with the NRA, but he wasn't EVIL.
    2008-04-05 21:53:23
    109.   Eric Stephen
    105 ,108
    Poor taste, yes. But also funny.
    2008-04-05 21:53:53
    111.   Jon Weisman
    107 - I think Kemp, Ethier and Jones should be the starting outfield, but I don't ever expect the starting outfield to play 162 games a year. I wouldn't feel any need to sit either of them today, but if Young had started today, I would have not found it a big deal - which is why, I guess, I didn't get overwrought about Pierre. You have to give your bench some at-bats.

    I realize that this was Pierre's second start this week, which is partly why so many people are in an uproar about it - and again, I understand it. I'm just having a lot of trouble getting worked up about it.

    2008-04-05 21:56:38
    112.   Bluebleeder87

    nothing against you RedDog but I don't like hearing Joe Torre talking like that, it's kind of like your high school girlfriend talking about her ex, who needs that.

    2008-04-05 22:09:10
    113.   underdog
    108 It's a line he said frequently, so it may be a bit tasteless, but not that bad. Plus, Eric's right, he was great in Touch of Evil (not quite believable as Mexican, perhaps, but great in it nonetheless.) And of course Planet of the Apes, The Omega Man, El Cid, Sam Peckinpah's Major Dundee. I liked Heston's work in films. I didn't agree with him politically, but as with John Wayne that didn't affect my admiration for his work on screen. And I felt sorry for him at the end of "Bowling for Columbine," as M. Moore badgered him. (Not to get too political here.) Anyway...
    2008-04-05 22:10:17
    114.   underdog
    112 Torre's just flattering him, comparing him to a great player that he was very familiar with. I don't think it's a negative thing at all.
    2008-04-05 22:10:39
    115.   68elcamino427
    Thanks Jon. I really feel like that too.
    I just wish Kemp would go with the outside pitches when he swings at them or lay off of them, because today he was mostly just missing them.

    After reading the SI article in the barber shop today, I got the feeling that the announcers were quoting from the same article.
    It all looks better to me in context:)

    2008-04-05 22:17:29
    116.   fordprefect
    I'm no apologist for Heston or anything he supposedly represented, but Moore didn't just badger him in that film, he sucker-punched him.
    2008-04-05 22:21:19
    117.   68elcamino427
    Heston and Joseph Cotton were part of Orson Wells Troupe. They made some great films in the 40's.
    The first thing that I thought of when I saw the RIP was chariot races.
    2008-04-05 22:22:30
    118.   Marty
    Soylent Green is People!!!
    2008-04-05 22:24:38
    119.   Marty
    I think the only association Heston ever had with Welles was with Touch of Evil. He certainly wasn't in the Welles troupe.
    2008-04-05 22:27:28
    120.   CanuckDodger
    117 -- I think Ben Hur was Heston's best film. I really love that movie.
    2008-04-05 22:29:11
    121.   underdog
    Correct, Touch of Evil was the only Welles film Heston was in. Cotten was part of that troupe for sure, though. 116 I agree. 'twas unfortunate.

    And how could I forget Soylent Green.

    Makes me want to crack open a can of Soylent Cola in salute.

    2008-04-05 22:29:13
    122.   68elcamino427
    I thought that my Cinema professor at USC told me otherwise, but that was a long time ago, so I'll take your word for it and will stand as corrected:)
    2008-04-05 22:31:01
    123.   underdog
    Ben Hur is indeed great, too, the best of all historical/religious epics.

    "Almost at the moment He died, I heard Him say, 'Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.'"

    2008-04-05 22:37:48
    124.   68elcamino427
    115 missing them in his last couple of starts, he didn't play today.
    2008-04-05 23:39:57
    125.   Icaros
    My two favorite Heston roles are The Omega Man and his part as the First Player in Branagh's Hamlet.
    2008-04-06 00:14:21
    126.   Eric Enders
    113 "he was great in Touch of Evil (not quite believable as Mexican, perhaps, but great in it nonetheless.)"

    I thought he was completely not believable as a Mexican, which was great for that particular film because the bizarre casting actually reinforced the comic undertones of the film. I tend to think Welles did that on purpose. But maybe not.

    I could never get into a lot of Heston's technicolor epics, like Ben-Hur, the Ten Commandments, or The Greatest Show on Earth. They simply haven't aged that well. They were notable at the time mostly for the spectacle, and we've seen so many bigger and better spectacles since then that the impact of the DeMille-type stuff is muted now.

    My next favorite after Touch of Evil would have to be the damned dirty apes, I suppose.

    2008-04-06 02:10:27
    127.   Chiron Brown
    Touch of Evil was one of the better films released the same year the Dodgers began play in Los Angeles. But to me, Heston will always be Moses.
    2008-04-06 07:09:24
    128.   D4P
    And I felt sorry for him at the end of "Bowling for Columbine," as M. Moore badgered him

    That's how I'll remember Charlton Heston. On one hand, you couldn't help but feel sorry for him because he was an old man. On the other hand, he brought the badgering upon himself, and looked pathetic for not being willing to talk about his decision to promote guns in communities that had just experienced gun-related tragedies.

    He did not come across well, and missed an opportunity to defend the guns he loved so much.

    2008-04-06 07:15:25
    129.   Bob Hendley
    124 - I thought you were just being ironic.
    2008-04-06 07:51:03
    130.   silverwidow
    Erik Bedard scratched already (hip inflammation).

    This guy is breaking down fast. No wonder Baltimore wanted to cash in...

    2008-04-06 07:59:00
    131.   Izzy
    I love Hollywood guys, who aren't Hollywood at all. Heston was a one of a kind treasure. Limited actor at times, maybe but who isn't? Pathetic, never. Referencing Michael Moore on anything, other than cookie recipes, is probably dangerous. Next time through we might switch the matchups and pitch Kuroda against Peavy.
    2008-04-06 08:01:41
    132.   silverwidow
    Our 2007 1st round supp. pick debuted last night for Inland Empire and had a great game:

    James Adkins - 4 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 1 BB, 2 Ks

    He has a legit shot at making the 2009 pen.

    2008-04-06 08:08:02
    133.   D4P
    Pathetic: causing or evoking pity, sympathetic sadness, sorrow, etc.; pitiful; pitiable.


    Heston was pathetic in this sense at the end of "Bowling for Columbine." Yet, like I said before, he willingly drew attention to himself, so it was hard to really think of him as an innocent victim.

    2008-04-06 08:22:04
    134.   LAT
    48 hours ago I was standing in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Today, Charlton Heston dies. Coincidence? I think so.

    At the risk of a Rule 5 violation, I can't agree Heston brought the badgering upon himself. Under false pretense, Michael Moore took advantage on an old man in the advanced stages of Alzheimer's. If Moore was looking for a meaningful dialouge about gun control he should have sought Heaston out five years earlier or the current head of the NRA. I have long been in faovr of gun control (although after two weeks in Israel I must confess I'm open to reconsideration) but Moore's tactics are scummy at best.

    As for baseball, I have not seen one inning of Dodger baseball yet this season. I am really looking forward to watching today's game. (My lone post from Israel that the Dodger game was on ESPN was wrong. Schedule said it would be on. Instead the 2007 Strong Man Competition was on. ESPN loves the Strong Man stuff.)

    2008-04-06 08:29:13
    135.   Jon Weisman
    134 - Just in time, my friend. New post up top.
    2008-04-06 08:29:59
    136.   D4P
    First of all, I don't think "Heston brought the badgering upon himself" and "Moore's tactics were scummy at best" are mutually exclusive.

    Second, Heston wasn't a bed-ridden invalid who sought above all else to avoid the limelight. He conducted voluntary, intentional, political acts that thrust himself into the public spotlight by (presumably accepting large sums of money...?) to speak at NRA rallies in towns that had just had a bunch of people killed by guns.

    I don't think it was reasonable for him to then expect to retreat to his ritzy neighborhood and be left alone. He brought the attention on himself.

    It's kinda like celebrities in general who expect to make millions of dollars from the public off the attention they draw to their movies, songs, shows, etc., but then expect to be left alone by that same public when said celebrities want to live a "normal" life. It doesn't work that way.

    2008-04-06 13:24:55
    137.   hotblackdesiato
    How do you feel about Pierre starting over Kemp two days in a row, Jon?

    2008-04-06 15:56:38
    138.   Frip
    So this is what a Dodger Thoughts political board would look like. Not so nice.
    2008-04-06 15:58:08
    139.   Frip
    Four statues of Gwynn at Petco. Kinda silly.
    2008-04-06 15:59:50
    140.   Frip
    Rock y Roll we win!
    2008-04-06 16:01:21
    141.   Frip
    So, like, anyone like the Dodgers here?
    2008-04-06 16:02:53
    142.   Frip
    Oh I see, new post up top. I'm pretty stupid.

    Maybe Jon can start highlighting those announcements in yellow or something.

    2008-04-11 19:55:44
    143.   Ryan Graber
    can someone tell me why matt kemp is not playing!!!!!!!! this is unreal. i cant believe. i am so frustrated i could throw my tv out the window. man, i love torre, but what is going on here?? they dont trade they guys because he is a superstar talent, and now he sits on the bench?? this is just stupid, plain and simple!

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