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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

The Dodgers' Most Valuable Pitcher To Date
2008-05-14 12:35
by Jon Weisman

Based on Value Over Replacement Player, it's Chan Ho Park - despite a strikeout/home run ratio of just over 2:1.

Syesha Mercado deserves to make the American Idol finals ahead of David Archuleta.

Comments (245)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-05-14 12:41:36
1.   Eric Enders
If you follow the link you will see a picture of the world's most wanted serial killer. Either that or Joe Beimel.
2008-05-14 12:43:40
2.   Eric Enders
So according to VORP, Rafael Furcal has been more valuable than Russell Martin, Matt Kemp, and James Loney combined. Hmm.
2008-05-14 12:44:43
3.   Eric Stephen
I will take entries here until 5pm Pacific Time. I'm looking in your general direction, D4P.
2008-05-14 12:47:14
4.   Eric Enders
Greg Brock has appeared on a ballot or two but not yet posted one, I believe.
2008-05-14 12:49:10
5.   Eric Stephen
11 different Dodgers have received "all-time" votes in all five slots (1st through 5th) so far.

In each race, two clear favorites have emerged and are waging close battles for the top spot. I won't post any results until the polls have closed, as to not sway the voting.

2008-05-14 12:50:11
6.   Eric Stephen
And P has appeared on a ballot, yet no posts from D4P.
2008-05-14 12:50:27
7.   ImprobableImpossible
David Cook's Value Over Replacement Idol Contestant is higher than Mercado's and Archuleta's combined.
2008-05-14 12:50:38
8.   Eric Stephen
I really like the trend of the comments so far.
2008-05-14 12:50:59
9.   Eric Stephen
7 ,8
2008-05-14 12:53:42
10.   KG16
how are you handling ballots that contain "guys I saw play" and "guys I wish I saw play" in separate lists?
2008-05-14 12:54:17
11.   D4P
All right, all right.

I'm just gonna give the All-Time Faves*:

Pedro G.

Honorable Mention:

Hee-Seop Ch-i

*I don't necessarily have much emotional connection to these players now, but I did when they played.

2008-05-14 12:55:18
12.   Xeifrank
and according to FanGraphs, Park has a FIP of 5.57, whereas Derek Lowe who is near the bottom of that VORP list has a FIP of 3.71.

Broxton: 1.49
Guo: 2.67
Beimel: 2.86
Wade: 3.23
Billingsley: 3.30
Lowe: 3.71
Penny: 3.77
Kuroda: 4.30
Loiaza: 4.64
Park: 5.57
Proctor: 5.75

This list tells a different story.
vr, Xei

2008-05-14 12:55:53
13.   Eric Enders
It would be pretty funny if Andy LaRoche got traded before 5 p.m. today and threw Eric Stephen's tallying all out of whack.
2008-05-14 12:57:03
14.   Andrew Shimmin
Reading through this morning's lists, it's clear to me that I should have left Kemp off mine, since he seems to be the stiffest competition for the number one spot.

Alternately, I should have created a bunch of sockpuppet accounts, and really rigged the poll up good. But that's a lot of work, as opposed to snubbing, which comes effortlessly to me.

2008-05-14 12:57:48
15.   Ken Noe
13 That would not be funny.
2008-05-14 12:58:04
16.   Bob Timmermann
I don't think such an event would be funny to many people here. I believe it would be more of ... something I can't adequately describe using G-rated language.
2008-05-14 13:04:28
17.   D4P
something I can't adequately describe using G-rated language

You can probably get away with PG-13

2008-05-14 13:11:21
18.   Eric Stephen
You just wanted to use "tallying" and "whack" in the same sentence!
2008-05-14 13:11:33
19.   Disabled List
I would definitely be using R and NC-17 rated language. The Rule 1 police would send me to the gallows.
2008-05-14 13:12:55
20.   Bob Timmermann
That's what happens when you leave a stranger in the Alps!
2008-05-14 13:14:35
21.   bhsportsguy
Today's birthdays ("celebrity") include an elf, another whose father starred in Japanese Monster film classic that was aired every night on KTLA, and another who created perhaps the most despised CGI character in the history of film.
2008-05-14 13:15:54
22.   Jon Weisman
From the press notes: "The last Dodger squad that did not have a five-game losing streak was the 1998 squad, which lost four in a row on four different occasions."
2008-05-14 13:17:26
23.   Bluebleeder87
Eric S. 800 Eric Davis for me by FAR, he was the best & coolest, I never got on the Ricky Henderson train for some reason.
2008-05-14 13:17:34
24.   Bob Timmermann
But what about Cate Blanchett?
2008-05-14 13:18:01
25.   Eric Stephen
most despised CGI character in the history of film

The only thing that come to mind was Jar Jar Binks.

2008-05-14 13:18:07
26.   tjdub

All-Time (that I was old enough to see)

2008-05-14 13:20:46
27.   blue22
11 - Sax!
2008-05-14 13:21:49
28.   Bob Timmermann
And it's Suzy Kolber's birthday.
2008-05-14 13:22:21
29.   kinbote
Good afternoon everybody. Pull up a chair. We're just getting started . . .
2008-05-14 13:23:19
30.   bhsportsguy
24 Did you see elf?
25 And who created Jar Jar?

2 for 3.

2008-05-14 13:23:29
31.   El Lay Dave
11 Dave Sax? Or should he have been on gpellamjr's list?
2008-05-14 13:24:38
32.   Eric Stephen
I was going to do a poll about everyone's favorite pitcher with a May 14 birthday that threw a perfect game against the Dodgers, but the choices are limited.
2008-05-14 13:25:39
33.   Eric Stephen
Whatever the name of George Lucas's graphics company is. Industrial Light & Magic?
2008-05-14 13:27:32
34.   ucladodger
A little late to the party, but here are mine.

1. Bison
2. Russ
3. Loney
4. Broxton
5. Furcal

1. Jackie
2. Koufax
3. Edwin Jackson (what can i say, i got attached)
4. Piazza
5. Campy

As for my all-time #3, he currently has a VORP over 10. He is also second in the majors behind Cliff Lee in starts giving up 0 runs. He has 3 and i like Lee has 5 or 6.

2008-05-14 13:29:23
35.   blue22
34 - I almost named my first kid Edwin.
2008-05-14 13:29:24
36.   underdog
Please do not say the words "Jar Jar Binks" while I'm eating lunch. Thanks.

"Cate Blanchett" is perfectly fine, however.

2008-05-14 13:29:35
37.   Bob Timmermann
I try to forget a lot of things about "Lord of the Rings."

Please forgive me everyone.

2008-05-14 13:33:11
38.   Reddog
I don't think we have a most valuable pitcher. Before his last outing, maybe I woulda said Broxton. They're all mediocre so far, and most of the better ones are way off what they did last year.
2008-05-14 13:34:28
39.   underdog
Did people here discuss this article on Andruw Jones yesterday? I presume so.
I just thought it was good to hear and at the same time made me feel kind of sad. I really hope he pulls out of it.
2008-05-14 13:35:50
40.   Eric Enders
I think that vote for Edwin Jackson just helped the 2005 Jacksonville Suns re-tie the Brooklyn Dodgers with 8 players from each team receiving votes.
2008-05-14 13:36:56
41.   old dodger fan
If I was even older than I am I might have said Johnny Podres, if for nothing else, the 1955 WS. I did see him play, but not in Brooklyn and Koufax and Drysdale were the stars of the staff by the time I got interested.
2008-05-14 13:36:56
42.   ToyCannon
Kuo is number two in both lists, plus he made a lot of current fav lists. To me he is easily the most fun to watch, while battling Chad for most maddening.

I hope Eric never gets a job he pays attention to so that we get his complete poll attention.

2008-05-14 13:37:13
43.   D4P
I excerpted (and posted) this part:

"This is the first time he's left the nest," the manager said. "He's been with an organization his whole life. He ventures out; he doesn't do very well."

I then wondered what explained Jones's 2007, given that he was still in the nest.

2008-05-14 13:37:50
44.   blue22
38 - Kuo and Beimel have been pretty valuable/important this year, I think.
2008-05-14 13:40:25
45.   Steve Ryfle
21 - The video Amber Tamblyn's dad doesn't want you to see:

2008-05-14 13:45:38
46.   old dodger fan
43 I think they are looking for anything to explain the drop off.

He left "the nest" of Curacao in 1994 and over the next 3 seasons played in 7 cities and roared thru the farm system. He did all this as a teenager. It did not seem to bother him then.

He spent 12 years in Atlanta and I have no doubt he misses it and it's an adjustment but I'm skeptical that that is the root of the problem.

Having said all that, I agree with Torre in keeping him in the lineup. If he starts hitting we will be a much better team.

I hate it when the fans boo a Dodger unless he's not trying.

2008-05-14 13:46:23
47.   JoeyP
Is Cliff Lee he luckiest pitcher in baseball?

53.2 IP
32 Hits
4 BBs
44 Ks
1 HR

0.67 ERA

All the peripherals are good. 11-1 (Ks/bbs) is insane. But 32 hits allowed in 53 IP?


2008-05-14 13:49:15
48.   ToyCannon
The last Brave who did this bad after we acquired him was Furcal. Before that it was Dusty Baker.

A year from now instead of lamenting that Ned wasted money on A Jones, the debate will be how long and for how much we should extend his contract.

2008-05-14 13:49:18
49.   underdog
46 - Yeah and I hope more Dodger fans see that article. There's a misperception about him that I think is adding to the boos. Clearly he's got a lot of work to do, but clearly it bothers him , and it was good to hear what was going on inside him. I'm glad they posted link to that on the Dodgers blog.

The sooner he works things out the less Pierre we'll see which is to everyone's benefit.

2008-05-14 13:49:32
50.   Eric Stephen
I hope Eric never gets a job he pays attention to so that we get his complete poll attention

This quest, while fun, has taken some time to keep up with. It may have been easier to compile everything at the end, but it wouldn't have been nearly as fun.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-05-14 13:50:57
51.   guy clinch
47- He's been very good and lucky. His BABIP is very low (it's at .224 and it should be at .300). He's also stranding like 90% of baserunners. A great breakdown of his season here:
2008-05-14 13:51:04
52.   D4P
I hate it when the fans boo a Dodger unless he's not trying

I suspect some fans interpret Jones's weight to be an indication that he's not trying as hard as he could.

2008-05-14 13:52:24
53.   D4P
Furcal was good the year before he came to the Dodgers. Jones wasn't. Seems like people around here are in denial about that.
2008-05-14 13:53:44
54.   Daniel Zappala
A trade of Kemp might be enough to get even me to commit a Rule 1 violation.
2008-05-14 13:54:02
55.   Daniel Zappala
Or LaRoche, I should say.
2008-05-14 13:55:21
56.   Daniel Zappala
Did Bob dis "Lord of the Rings"? Is nothing sacred?
2008-05-14 13:57:02
57.   El Lay Dave
53 I don't think anyone denies that Jones was not good offensively in 2007. The debate was/is over whether or not it was the beginning of a permanent decline.
2008-05-14 13:57:29
58.   ToyCannon
Is it possible that A Jones was not a 19 year old phenom from Curacao? The Braves tried to pawn off both Furcal and Betemit as being younger then they were.

When the Reds traded Frank Robinson to the Orioles it was because they said he was an old 30, when you look at A Jones, he looks like an old 31.

2008-05-14 13:59:22
59.   ToyCannon
I don't think anyone is in denial about his sub par 2007. I'm in denial that it indicated a permanent decline as El Lay Dave has stated.
2008-05-14 14:00:41
60.   SG6
43 - You'd think $36 million would get you a pretty nice nest out west.
2008-05-14 14:01:15
61.   guy clinch
Andruw Jones was very good in 2006. His decline has been rapid and unexpected, regardless of what his actual age is. To lose a couple hundred points of slg over the course of a season and a quarter defies typical aging patterns.
2008-05-14 14:06:11
62.   ToyCannon
Maybe's he's missing what was in his nest in the East.
2008-05-14 14:06:12
63.   CanuckDodger

Chad Billingsley
James Loney
Russell Martin
Matt Kemp
Jonathan Broxton

All-Time (Non-Current):

Bob Welch
Steve Garvey
Eric Gagne
Tim Belcher
Eric Karros

2008-05-14 14:10:11
64.   kinbote
63 But you have to admit: Belcher's fastball was straight! He reminded me a little of a [much] better version of Brett Tomko.
2008-05-14 14:11:15
65.   kinbote
62 Worms? Saliva? What are you getting at?!?
2008-05-14 14:12:26
66.   El Lay Dave
61 If Jones is two years older than stated, the decline is Dale Murphy-esque.
2008-05-14 14:14:02
67.   ToyCannon
I have a feeling that Canuck became a fan of the Dodgers by watching the 78 World Series.

Hard to remember but when Welch came up it seemed very Kershaw like. He had electric stuff.

2008-05-14 14:15:17
68.   regfairfield
Are we going to trade him for Tony Pena now?
2008-05-14 14:19:50
69.   Jacob L
I'm really behind on the discussion. I've been, um, what do you call that thing where you do things in exchange for money?? Anyway,


All Time-
Dusty Baker (sorry)
Pedro Guerrero

2008-05-14 14:25:42
70.   bhsportsguy
69 Never apologize for picking Johnnie B. Baker.

I picked 4 of the same all-time 5 except you have Boomer and I took Reggie Smith.

Hmmm, 1981 World Series MVP Trio, 1981 Rookie of the Year and Cy Young Award winner and Johnnie B. Baker. Nothing wrong with those 5.

2008-05-14 14:25:55
71.   SG6
62 - empty nest syndrome?
2008-05-14 14:27:52
72.   Eric Stephen
84 different people have submitted entries through Jacob L in 69 . Right now a single point separates the top two current favorite Dodgers.
2008-05-14 14:28:25
73.   Terry A


2008-05-14 14:29:30
74.   okdodge
71 We know it's not empty stomach syndrome.
2008-05-14 14:30:58
75.   underdog
No votes yet for Jacks Fimple or Perconte? For shame!
2008-05-14 14:33:40
76.   Eric Stephen
I wouldn't go so far as to put a pox on those who have voted with lists smaller than 5, but these rogue entries have really dealt a blow to the ease of my accounting integrity.
2008-05-14 14:35:20
77.   Jonny6
So have we reached the point where we may bring Kershaw up not because we need a 5th starter but because we need a 1st? Of course, it's unrealistic to expect a kid to be the staff ace, but really who else is it going to be at this point? With Penny's recent slide into utter mediocrity and Lowe's inconsistency and mental fragility, I'm increasingly in favor of just bringing up Kershaw and unleashing him on the league. Mostly, I'm tired of not having a single starting pitcher that can be relied upon to give the team six or seven solid innings each time out.
2008-05-14 14:36:34
78.   gcrl
i would add odalis to that list, although he did well the first season after the trade.

in other news, predicts a david v. david final, using busy signals as an indicator of the number of votes. it's science!

2008-05-14 14:37:51
79.   Eric Stephen
It's unreasonable to expect Kershaw to contribute anything more than 5 IP/start right now.

Plus, look at the expected ERAs in 12 . The pitchers have been fine; just a bit unlucky.

2008-05-14 14:38:13
80.   underdog
77 The Minotaur could indeed be that as soon as next year. But not this. Yah, I think we all are tired of the ineffective starting pitching as of late. I feel like they need a good dose of the Padres or someone like that soon. ;-) Heck, we could see Kershaw and McDonald and/or Meloan all in the rotation next year with "elder statesman" Chad Billingsley, at the rate these other guys are going. Er, plus Penny and whatever veteran they bring in.
2008-05-14 14:38:49
81.   Jon Weisman
75 - Jack Perconte is obscure/memorable, but he's no Jack Fimple.
2008-05-14 14:39:35
82.   heato


All-Time (that I've seen):

Ramon Martinez (I)

2008-05-14 14:40:13
83.   underdog
79 - I think some of the pitchers have indeed been a bit unlucky in some of their outings, but it's hard to ignore how hard they've been hit at other times. Luck is some of it, but ineffectiveness is part of it, too. Still, I have faith they'll change things around soon enough. They've also faced some hot hitting lineups the past week.
2008-05-14 14:40:34
84.   Eric Enders
58 "Is it possible that A Jones was not a 19 year old phenom from Curacao? The Braves tried to pawn off both Furcal and Betemit as being younger then they were."

This is not true.

In Betemit's case, he was a reverse agegate guy. The Braves tried to pass him off as older than he really was so that they could sign him before he turned 16. It's the same thing the Dodgers did with Beltre. So Betemit is actually younger than his official DOB says he is.

With Furcal, he turned out to have fudged his age to make him appear younger. But there has never been any suspicion that the Braves were complicit in this; in fact, it makes no sense whatsoever that they would be. The whole reason players fake their ages is to appear younger to the team signing them, so that they can get a bigger bonus -- or, in some cases, so they can be signed at all. If the team knew the player's real age, then that would eliminate the only reason for faking one's age in the first place.

2008-05-14 14:40:56
85.   Jon Weisman

Pierre, LF
Jones, CF
Kemp, RF
Kent, 2B
Martin, C
Loney, 1B
DeWitt, 3B
Hu, SS
Lowe, P

2008-05-14 14:41:01
86.   underdog
81 Would you believe... Jack Stephan?
2008-05-14 14:42:13
87.   underdog
85 - Except for the typo ;-) that has Pierre leading off when it should be Ethier, it's okay otherwise. Jones second though? Wow, that's some wishful thinking in the 1 and 2 slots, Torre.

Hope Lowe's sinker is working today.

2008-05-14 14:42:59
88.   D4P
Having Jones bat behind Pierre is good strategy, given that Jones can't hit with runners on base.
2008-05-14 14:43:06
89.   scareduck
59 - This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever Ned Colletti wants to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the Andruw-hole goes.
2008-05-14 14:43:58
90.   ToyCannon
Perconte was a baseball name.

Did Fimple get a retirement benefit from MLB with these numbers?

Does anyone know the MLB retirement deal? Days and dollars.

2008-05-14 14:44:01
91.   Bob Timmermann
I really hope you're not counting my top 5 current favorites because they were in jest.
2008-05-14 14:45:18
92.   gcrl
is that jack stephanowski?
2008-05-14 14:46:18
93.   ToyCannon
Pawn off was the wrong choice of words. I remember being very irritated when everyone knew Furcal was older then he was but they kept giving him credit for breaking records at his "given age" instead of his real age when he was a rookie.
2008-05-14 14:47:04
94.   LoneStar7
85 dang, no 'Dre again...
2008-05-14 14:47:04
95.   DXMachina
Current Dodgers
1) Martin
2) Loney
3) Kemp
4) Beimel
5) Saito

All-Time Dodgers
1) Sandy Koufax
2) Ron Cey
3) Don Drysdale
4) Gil Hodges
5) Orel Hershiser

2008-05-14 14:47:08
96.   Black and Blue

R Martinez

2008-05-14 14:49:18
97.   Marty
My least favorite:
Jose Offerman
Odalis Perez
Gio Carrera
Don Stanhouse
Carlos Perez
2008-05-14 14:49:50
98.   ToyCannon
Nope, I stay on the ship until it either breaks free of the duress or goes down. Faith doesn't climb onto a rowboat when things get tough.
2008-05-14 14:49:58
99.   LoneStar7
From Dodgers Main Page

Dorey Wade followed Brad Penny with two scoreless innings and lowered his ERA to 1.88

2008-05-14 14:51:15
100.   ToyCannon
I knew full pack would be on that list.

Gio - he was awesome for us.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-05-14 14:51:58
101.   El Lay Dave
91 Bob's real favorites are:

Charlie Neal
Junior Gilliam
Johnny Roseboro
Doug Camilli
Maury Wills

2008-05-14 14:53:25
102.   El Lay Dave
well, his real all-time favorites....
2008-05-14 14:53:36
103.   Bob Timmermann
My current favorites were all players with short first and last names to save time typing.

My all-time favorites are really:
Myron White
Mike Ramsey
Mike Ramsey
Sandy Vance
Camilo Pascual

2008-05-14 14:53:48
104.   kngoworld

All-Time (Life Time):
Butler, Brett (I was young)

2008-05-14 14:53:51
105.   SG6


2008-05-14 14:54:22
106.   ToyCannon
For fun I did a list of 5 fav's by decade. It still wasn't easy but at least I was able to get more of my boys on a list.
2008-05-14 14:54:26
107.   Eric Stephen
You're going to get a stern look from me when I shake your hand. I was counting your list until now (I thought you had a soft spot for the career minor leaguer) the all-time accurate or were you a filthy liar there as well? :)
2008-05-14 14:54:37
108.   D4P
I can only assume that Garvey fans never saw him on "Cheap Seats", where he came across as a complete d-bag, if you know what I mean.
2008-05-14 14:55:17
109.   Bob Timmermann
Bob Timmermann doesn't play favorites.
2008-05-14 14:55:31
110.   ToyCannon
I've heard that Eric goes green when someone doesn't take his poll seriously.
2008-05-14 14:56:33
111.   Strike4
Yikes, the Welch-Reggie duel was almost 30 years ago. I was having an okay day, now I feel old.
2008-05-14 14:57:58
112.   Reddog
Do we know that Andruw Jones was never on steroids? For that matter, what about Nomar - did he used to be on steroids? Where did his power go?

If Jones did steroids, then stopped before last season, doesn't that explain the precipitous decline? Plus, who's to know for sure whether he might not be a couple years older than he's supposed to be.

He batted .222 last season. And while he hit 26 home runs, he was playing in the NL East, in hitter-friendly parks, and not facing the pitching he's seeing now in the NL West.

2008-05-14 15:00:34
113.   El Lay Dave
103 My 101 originally started with "both Mike Ramseys, both Ramon Martinezes", but I didn't know how to finish it. You saw what I ended up with instead.
2008-05-14 15:01:26
114.   bhsportsguy
112 Unfortunately for players who played in that era, this will be something that no one will ever really know.
2008-05-14 15:01:49
115.   El Lay Dave
112 Do we know if any player was never on steroids?
2008-05-14 15:02:07
116.   silverwidow
Pierre, LF
Jones, CF
Kemp, RF
Kent, 2B
Martin, C
Loney, 1B
DeWitt, 3B
Hu, SS
Lowe, P
2008-05-14 15:02:58
117.   silverwidow
116 Oops, too late. Sorry.
2008-05-14 15:03:23
118.   fanerman
112 Nomar had a wrist injury that seems to explain his power drop convincingly enough, for me anyway.
2008-05-14 15:04:03
119.   kinbote
85 This Pierre-as-leadoff-hitter experiment is really going well. Let's do it again. The good news for Torre is that win or lose, he's probably going to have an excellent dinner afterwards.
2008-05-14 15:04:31
120.   underdog
109 "Bob Timmermann doesn't play favorites." Are you channeling Bob Dole now?

115 I do. I have pee samples for all ten thousand+ baseball players over the past two decades. Fun stuff. It's in my basement, next to my central blogging headquarters and the Buzz Bissinger Library.

2008-05-14 15:04:38
121.   kngoworld
109. Bob Timmermann
Bob Timmermann doesn't play favorites.

Chuck Norris doesn't play favorites, he is everyone elses favorite.

2008-05-14 15:05:08
122.   bhsportsguy
108 I think when most people think of their favorite players, they tend to think of them during their playing careers not by any post-career activities.

When I think of Ron Cey its the memory of him playing 3B not selling appliances on TV.

Steve Garvey never was a favorite of mine because I thought he was too image conscious, too concerned about his stats and wasn't the best player on his team.

2008-05-14 15:06:23
123.   JoeyP
So much for Druw sitting out the series to clear his head.

Torre probably figured hitting in Milwaukee tonight against a crappy LH is the best hitting situation Druw will see until next week.

Tomorrow is Sheets, and the weekend is the Angels staff.

2008-05-14 15:06:45
124.   kinbote
Serenity now. Serenity now. At least Top Chef is on tonight. And a couple good basketball games. I have interests other than Dodger baseball. I really do.
2008-05-14 15:08:13
125.   Eric Stephen
Bob Timmermann's poll entry is dead to me.
2008-05-14 15:09:19
126.   blue22
122 - When I made my list, Gagne and LoDuca dropped a couple of spots (out of the top-5) due to their post-LA hijinks.
2008-05-14 15:09:20
127.   ToyCannon
Not one mention of Davy Lopes who was twice the player that Steve Sax was.
2008-05-14 15:10:00
128.   ryu
Hmmm, I'd bet with today's lineup we won't score too many runs. I'd cap it at 3.
2008-05-14 15:10:53
129.   Eric Stephen
Lopes has received two votes.

Sax received seven.

2008-05-14 15:11:16
130.   El Lay Dave
123 Angels probable starters against LA are the two hot starters, Saunders and Santana, followed by Weaver who has been struggling but had his best start of the year yesterday. Dodgers are Kuroda, TBA, Penny.
2008-05-14 15:11:51
131.   Hythloday

Shawn Green

2008-05-14 15:12:12
132.   Eric Stephen
The Milwaukee lineup tonight is a bit different from Weeks past:

CF Mike Cameron
SS JJ Hardy
LF Ryan Braun
1B Prince Fielder
RF Corey Hart
3B Bill Hall
2B Craig Counsell
P Manny Parra
C Jason Kendall

2008-05-14 15:14:17
133.   kinbote
132 Their LF is better than our LF.
2008-05-14 15:14:38
134.   Marty
100 I have an irrational hatred for Carrera.
2008-05-14 15:15:32
135.   ToyCannon
I think Mike Cameron was my 2nd choice when it came to free agents this winter. Evidently I have a soft spot for excellent defensive center fielders, with good power, solid plate discipline, low batting average, skills on decline type of guys.
2008-05-14 15:15:44
136.   Eric Enders
127 I think it's just that people are limiting themselves to players they remember. I'm old enough to remember Sax but not Lopes (although I voted for neither), and I'm sure there are many others in the same age group.
2008-05-14 15:17:36
137.   El Lay Dave
Thirty years ago today:

Perhaps Lasorda can reminisce on the opponents' cleanup hitter's performance.

2008-05-14 15:19:43
138.   blue22
I was 11 when Sax lost out on the batting title to Tim Raines on the last day of the season.

I was 12 when I got a foul ball that Sax hit.

I was 13 when I saw him homer on Opening Day in '88.

I did not know at the time that Davey Lopes had a better career OPS+ than Steve Sax.

2008-05-14 15:21:34
139.   cargill06
1. bills
2. martin
3. saito
4. loney
5. beimel
least fav all time
1. lugo
2. tomko
3. odalis
4. hendrickson
5. tbd.
2008-05-14 15:22:19
140.   JoeyP
I'm not sure why Counsell should ever play ahead of Ricky Weeks, but that lineup has quite a few weapons.
2008-05-14 15:24:06
141.   kinbote
This is my last comment of the day, but I honestly want Ethier's agent to request a trade. We are being mismanaged and somebody needs to rock the boat. Why not an agent?
2008-05-14 15:25:39
142.   Johnny Nucleo
Any idea how many comments Dodger Thoughts has accumulated so far?

I don't know, I'm asking. Have we reached 100,000? Or are we well beyond?

2008-05-14 15:25:42
143.   D4P
We are being mismanaged and somebody needs to rock the boat. Why not an agent?

Pierre's agent rocked the boat.

2008-05-14 15:26:33
144.   bhsportsguy
141 Why would that matter, it does nothing to resolve the issue and all you end up is with a story that just lead to a lot of no comments.
2008-05-14 15:26:49
145.   blue22
141 - He's got zippo leverage to request a trade.
2008-05-14 15:27:14
146.   Zak
133 Their LF has more home runs in the past week than our LF will have the rest of his career.
2008-05-14 15:27:37
147.   cargill06
139 i dunno how i could leave kemp of that... he is certainly ahead of beimel
2008-05-14 15:27:57
148.   Icaros
Yeah, it's an age thing. Sax was the Dodgers 2nd baseman and leadoff hitter when I was in Little League. I usually played 2nd and batted first when I wasn't pitching. I also used to hit a lot of opposite field singles like he did.

My parents still laugh about my original pronunciation of Davey Lopes's name when I was a little boy. I thought it was Baby Lopes.

2008-05-14 15:30:26
149.   Zak
Also, who will have more homeruns this year, their CF or ours?
2008-05-14 15:30:38
150.   bhsportsguy
143 Here's what happened re Juan Pierre, he got a ton of hits in Colorado, came back to L.A. and then Furcal goes out.

To me, its that simple.

Plus Ethier has had a horrible time hitting lefties this year (4 for 28, all singles), even Jones has slightly better numbers than that.

FWIW - at the last game I went to (Saturday with Eric Stephen), I saw Ethier joking around with Jones and in pretty good spirits before the game during BP.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-05-14 15:31:58
151.   bhsportsguy
No one ever asks who will hit more home runs, Prince Fielder or James Loney?

Okay, one commenter might.

2008-05-14 15:32:01
152.   LoneStar7
Did anyone see Manny being Manny today as he high fived a sox fan at camden yards after making a pretty good catch. He then proceeded to throw the ball back into the infield to get the double up at first base..
2008-05-14 15:32:55
153.   regfairfield
Note to self: make "high priced players don't get benched less than 25% through their contract" macro.
2008-05-14 15:33:43
154.   LogikReader

Prince Vegetable has nothing on J-Lo

2008-05-14 15:36:28
155.   LoneStar7
151 Yea Doesn't prince fielder have a terrible arm spam, and commit more errors than any other first baseman last year?
2008-05-14 15:38:08
156.   cargill06
152 no way
2008-05-14 15:38:38
157.   Spotted Owl
Favorite All time :

1- Reggie Smith - fun to do the switchhittig thing while playing wiffleball as a child.

2- Piazza
3 - Fernando
4 - Garvey - His stance was fun for wiffle ball as well.
5 - Greg Brock - From a city not to far from me.

Current :

1- Martin
2 - Loney
3- Kemp
4- Laroche
5 - Billingsley.

2008-05-14 15:38:50
158.   BlueCrew Bruin
155 "arm spam"

Isn't that what Pierre has attached to his shoulder?

I'm here all week. Try the veal.

2008-05-14 15:38:54
159.   LoneStar7
Also Princess apparently became a vegetarian after reading the book "Skinny (Expletive)" man I love wikipedia hahah...
2008-05-14 15:40:17
160.   LoneStar7
156 oh and the highlight was on was the cleanest high five I've ever seen, but a nice effort, a heads up play really in all respects haha
2008-05-14 15:41:41
161.   Eric Stephen
I think it's more problematic than that. I certainly don't want Torre riding the hot hand all the time, because how do you know when a hot streak ends or one could begin?

On May 1, Pierre voiced his displeasure with his role. He started that night, and for the next 5 games before Furcal went out. That's a Grady move straight out of 2007, when he would play Gonzo immediately after a complaint about playing time.

Starting Pierre is wrong on any of these 3 levels:

1) Torre believes in playing the hot hand, rather than the best players
2) Torre will allow a veteran to determine playing time by responding to his complaints
3) Torre thinks Pierre is a suitable replacement for Furcal at the leadoff spot

I'm not saying any other manager would do it differently. I'm not saying Ethier should demand a trade. But I'm saying I feel like Will Ferrell in Zoolander. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Why is something that is so blindingly obvious to me and many others (Kemp AND Ethier should play every day, almost without question) not even considered by the club? It's embarrassing.

2008-05-14 15:41:53
162.   Dodgers49
From previous thread:

707 did anyone else have a gut feeling that JP was gonna hit his 1st career HR as a dodger last night off gagne?

Somehow that thought never entered my mind.

2008-05-14 15:42:15
163.   Bob Timmermann
I had a story about Fielder going vegetarian on the Griddle back in spring training.
2008-05-14 15:43:10
164.   cargill06
160 that made my day
2008-05-14 15:45:01
165.   Bob Timmermann
Five current favorite Dodgers:
Jason Schmidt
Andruw Jones
Nomar Garciaparra
Juan Pierre
Luis Maza

Five favorite Dodgers alltime:
Dick Allen
Don Sutton
Andy Messersmith
Claude Osteen
Duke Sims

2008-05-14 15:45:29
166.   Jon Weisman
Baseball Toaster is about to pass the 1 million mark in terms of how many times all of us have hit "submit" or some such.
2008-05-14 15:46:43
167.   Dodgers49
From previous thread:

709 what's the deal with lucas may? he hasn't played since sunday and it was only 1 PA

SUNS REPORT: Jacksonville 8, Mobile 4

>> Lucas May left in the second inning after a first-inning pitch hit him in the left arm. <<

2008-05-14 15:46:50
168.   bhsportsguy
165 Can we blame the confusing ballot for those votes?
2008-05-14 15:47:27
169.   SG6
157 - I had Garvey's stance and "chop" swing down cold.

And never saw Cheap Seats. I did meet him at a trade show a few years back; he was pimping some video game software. I introduced myself, and he let me take a cell phone pic with him. Nice enough for me. Funny thing is that I was taller than him, which just struck me as odd.

2008-05-14 15:49:49
170.   Eric Stephen
Strike two.
2008-05-14 15:50:10
171.   Bob Hendley


2008-05-14 15:50:26
172.   ToyCannon
I understand it is an age thing. Just surprised that folks my age who saw Lopes play did not pick him, but those who did see Sax play did pick him, even though Lopes was a better player during my growing up era then Sax was during many of yours growing up era.
Now that I think of it however, if you saw Lopes play then you also had alot more players to choose from for your favorites then the Sax era.
All in all it was just another in a series of comments that I should have just left unwritten today.
2008-05-14 15:50:52
173.   Icaros

It's funny to me that Broxton looks like a huge monster on the field, but he's the height of a guard in the NBA.

2008-05-14 15:53:35
174.   ToyCannon
I think I really liked the Dodger all-time infield because other then Russel, the three studs of Garvey, Lopes, and Cey were all below average in height for a major league baseball player.
When you top out in 8th grade and everyone in the world grows taller then you, you look for things like that to hang your hat on provided you can reach the hat rack.
2008-05-14 15:54:01
175.   Eric Stephen
93 different commenters have submitted entries for one or both list(s). There are 67 minutes left to make it 100.
2008-05-14 15:54:23
176.   KG16
165 - I see the Palm Beach County vote is in
2008-05-14 15:54:23
177.   Dodgers49
51s' Meloan adjusting to move from bullpen

>> "The thing with Jon is, as a reliever, what we noticed was a slight drop in velocity when we used him on back-to-back days," Bundy said. "By him starting, hopefully it allows him to get some of that arm strength back and to develop three pitches." <<

2008-05-14 15:54:54
178.   bhsportsguy
172 I liked Lopes, I just liked other players more.

Also, Bobby Grich was probably my favorite player during that time so I think in mind, he's my favorite 2B so Lopes doesn't come to mind due to that too.

2008-05-14 15:54:58
179.   ToyCannon
It is not Broxton's height that is big. He would have no problem clearing space in the paint.
2008-05-14 15:56:10
180.   ucladodger
The Rays just made another great move and locked up Scott Kazmir to a long term deal. Now they have Kazmir, Shields, and Longoria all locked up. That time is going to be really good for a really long time.
2008-05-14 15:56:40
181.   ucladodger

That team, not that time.

2008-05-14 15:57:03
182.   Eric Enders
153 After tomorrow's game, Pierre will be through exactly 25% of his contract. Shall we expect the benching to commence?

Darn, that's what I thought.

2008-05-14 16:00:13
183.   Sagehen
172 Steve Sax was cute, and he played the drums. Since he was the first to break up the record-breaking infield, management did a really nice job of marketing him.

I got over Saxie when he became a Yankee.

2008-05-14 16:00:46
184.   Dodgers49
51s' Stults preserves place among valued Dodgers prospects

>> Bundy said Stults is pitching better now than he was last year when the Dodgers called him up three times and he pitched in 12 games for them. <<

2008-05-14 16:00:46
185.   Benjamin Miracord
I'd like to vote by absentee ballot please. Thank you.

The Here-And-Now:
1. Kemp
2. Loney
3. Ethier
4. Martin
5. Broxton

Ancient Times:
1. Koufax
2. Bill Singer
3. Piazza
4. Bill Sudakis
5. S. Green

2008-05-14 16:01:33
186.   Eric Enders
I liked Sax okay, but I liked his replacement better.
2008-05-14 16:02:37
187.   Icaros

I'd like to see him go one-on-one with Barkley.

2008-05-14 16:02:49
188.   jujibee
177. I guess I'm confused. Is arm strength measured by how hard a guy can throw for a short stint, or how long (duration) a guy can throw after taking a bit off of his velocity?
2008-05-14 16:03:45
189.   jasonungar07
sweet, out of the 8, 9, 1, 2 hitters our pitcher Lowe has the best on base %
2008-05-14 16:04:18
190.   LOB
NOW: Martin, Kemp, Loney, Ethier, Furcal

THEN: Robinson, Koufax, Piazza, Valenzuela, Gagne

2008-05-14 16:04:53
191.   ToyCannon
Sudakis made my 1st cut as he was the 1st Dodger prospect I got excited about but I couldn't keep him on the list. I'm glad you did so at least he will show up on the poll.
2008-05-14 16:05:19
192.   blue22
186 - Willie Randolph?

As much as I didn't want Sax to leave, I thought the right side of the infield was upgraded when Randolph/Murray replaced Sax/Stubbs. Back-to-back champs for sure!

2008-05-14 16:06:10
193.   Xeifrank
166. One millionth time someone has submitted a five player list? :)
That's pretty impressive, I wonder if Ken is going to keep track of who gets the millionth post. Perhaps a Baseball Toaster shopping spree?
vr, Xei
2008-05-14 16:08:22
194.   Sagehen
184 Stults is 28 already? I'm surprised he hasn't run out of option years yet.
2008-05-14 16:08:29
195.   ToyCannon
Red Sox need outfielders. Badly
2008-05-14 16:09:44
196.   fanerman
195 Are you suggesting something?
2008-05-14 16:10:27
197.   regfairfield
Repko for a PBTNL?
2008-05-14 16:10:36
198.   ToyCannon
I think Randolph turned the duece better then any Dodger I've ever seen, and that was in the twilight of his career.

At what point will Bob strike out tonight?

2008-05-14 16:10:39
199.   bhsportsguy
I'm not sure Molly Knight is asking a poll question or not in her blog today but I say go for the jade.

Just don't get sunburn in Mexico.

2008-05-14 16:11:35
200.   Eric Enders
192 Yeah, Randolph was the best player on the team for most of 1989, and then he lost his job and got traded to Oakland because Fred Claire decided to go out and get Juan Samuel. Ugh.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-05-14 16:12:42
201.   ToyCannon
The sunburn is the least thing to be worried about in Mexico.
2008-05-14 16:12:58
202.   El Lay Dave
Per Tony Jackson's blog:

"The mystery is solved: Park pitches Saturday. Torre says they should be able to get 85-90 pitches out of him."

Batten down the hatches.

2008-05-14 16:13:05
203.   Jon Weisman
193 - You can keep track on how close we're getting via the URLs atop each blog post.
2008-05-14 16:13:09
204.   Johnson
175 I'd like to help you get to 100, but I missed most of the day. This is favorite five on the current 25-man, and favorite five of all time in LA, or all time that you saw play?
2008-05-14 16:13:48
205.   Jon Weisman
202 - "Torre says they should be able to get 85-90 pitches out of him."

The cynical side of me asks, if that's the case, who enters the game in the fourth?

2008-05-14 16:14:20
206.   Chiron Brown
1) Ethier
2) Martin
3) Loney
4) Furcal
5) Saito

1) Koufax
2) Robinson
3) Newcombe
4) Wes Parker
5) Drysdale

2008-05-14 16:14:31
207.   ToyCannon
Samuel was a lousy player who I liked even though by then I did understand the importance of OBP.
2008-05-14 16:14:44
208.   regfairfield
Am I allowed to get indignant about having Chan Ho Park on the team now?
2008-05-14 16:14:46
209.   El Lay Dave
And from Diamond Leung on the Press-Enterprise blog:

Nomar Garciaparra has been working out at shortstop and could return to the position and start over Chin-lung Hu if he beats Rafael Furcal back.

2008-05-14 16:15:14
210.   Bob Timmermann
Bob Timmermann is a tough commenter to strike out.
2008-05-14 16:16:39
211.   ToyCannon
Kuo is now the 5th starter tag team guy. Not a bad combo if the 1st guy does his job.
2008-05-14 16:16:44
212.   bhsportsguy
208 was anyone stopping you before?

209 I saw that yesterday, personally, I think that leads me more to the idea of Nomar being a utility player once Raffy gets back.

2008-05-14 16:17:25
213.   Johnson
209 And if he beats Rafael Furcal in the back, he could hold the SS job for the rest of the year!
2008-05-14 16:19:01
214.   Xeifrank
211. That's a big if. Otherwise you are wasting away Guo's talents in low leverage innings. Hopefully the Dodger offense is on saturday. vr, Xei
2008-05-14 16:19:50
215.   ToyCannon
Some of us picked guys we actually saw play while others didn't.
2008-05-14 16:20:38
216.   Bluebleeder87
If you guys ever get a chance to drive thru Lake Huges Road (Valencia, CA) you should, it is breathtakingly beautiful
2008-05-14 16:21:35
217.   bhsportsguy
Juan Castro probably could have been Dodger if he had come been first available over last weekend or he might still be a Red given what happened the other day.
2008-05-14 16:22:01
218.   scooplew
When Garciaparra returns, what's the over/under for how many games he will play in before another injury forces him to the bench or the DL? I say 6.
2008-05-14 16:22:45
219.   ToyCannon
That has about as much chance for success as having Nomar as the only 3rd baseman on the team. How did that work out?

Unless the goal is to get him hurt as quickly as possible, which very well might be the goal.

2008-05-14 16:23:26
220.   Disabled List
166 Baseball Toaster is about to pass the 1 million mark in terms of how many times all of us have hit "submit" or some such.

Does the one-millionth Toaster poster gets a free subscription to Baseball Toaster Platinum?

2008-05-14 16:25:25
221.   KG16
218 - you're rather generous. I'd say the over/under is 3 games played, 6 on the schedule.

202 - glad I didn't go buy tickets for the game

2008-05-14 16:25:27
222.   Bluebleeder87
I wanna do a revised list for my top 5 current & former players but I'm afraid Jon will do a new post pretty soon.
2008-05-14 16:25:27
223.   Eric Enders
219 Given the stupid things the team does with Nomar when he's on the roster, I'm reduced to actually rooting for that to happen.
2008-05-14 16:25:55
224.   blue22
How much more damage does a bad shortstop do defensively than an equally bad 3rd baseman?
2008-05-14 16:26:03
225.   bhsportsguy
216 That's a pretty off-topic comment for you to make so close to a game.

Nothing wrong with it though.

There's a drive you can make past Santa Barbara heading up towards that whole "Sideways" wine country where you pass a lake and some nice mountain roads.

When my car broke down near Santa Barbara and I had to be towed back to LA (and I also had to pay the guy cash on my arrival home), my conversation with a tow truck driver consisted of how many times he finds a car that went off the road in that area. (At least once a month)

2008-05-14 16:30:21
226.   Jon Weisman
222 - I will have a new game chat thread, but it's Eric who set the deadline for the poll.
2008-05-14 16:30:22
227.   Samuel


2008-05-14 16:30:56
228.   Johnson
215 Thanks. I think I'll stick with guys I saw play in that case.

Chad Billingsley
Russell Martin
Matt Kemp
James Loney
Rafael Furcal

Orel Hershiser
Mike Scioscia
Fernando Valenzuela
Shawn Green
Pedro Guerrero

2008-05-14 16:31:33
229.   Bluebleeder87

I figured it was off-topic but I did the drive this weekend & it's one of those things were you find something so great you wanna share it with everybody!

2008-05-14 16:32:40
230.   Xeifrank
216. Drive up to Gorman and take the exit to Palmdale. The drive is beautiful, atleast it was a month ago with all the wild poppies in full bloom.

225. The drive from Solvang to Los Olivos is beautiful too and it takes you right by the Sideways Winery (movie fame). Keep driving through Los Olivos up past the Neverland Ranch and to the ridge of Figueroa mountain. That is also an incredibly beautiful drive, but it's starting to brown up. I like camping in the Lake Cachuma area (Rancho Oso). Doesn't get the crowds like anything within 90 minutes of LA does.
vr, Xei

2008-05-14 16:35:36
231.   Jon Weisman
Did anyone here see Jackie Robinson play?
2008-05-14 16:36:00
232.   ToyCannon
Clean up of the LA River is this Saturday

2008-05-14 16:36:25
233.   ToyCannon
Don Burns did.
2008-05-14 16:37:17
234.   Andrew Shimmin
If Kemp beats Martin by five or fewer points, I'm holding Bob personally responsible.
2008-05-14 16:38:01
235.   Bluebleeder87
226 cool, thanks.


3)Broxton (he's a thrower now BUT if he starts pitching he could be very special)


1)Orel Hershiser
2)Michael Piazza (I can't believe I forgot him)
3)Fernando (I never saw him in his prime but my dad sure made a fuss over 'em)
5)Pedro Martinez (for the little while he was with us he sure threw gas)

2008-05-14 16:38:32
236.   Linkmeister
Ooh, is it too late for me to vote?


1. Koufax
2. Drysdale
3. Wills
4. Willie Davis
5. Pete Reiser

I saw all of them save Reiser.

1. Loney
2. Martin
3. Kemp
4. Saito
5. DeWitt

I was old enough to see Jackie Robinson play had there been televised Games of the Week back then.

2008-05-14 16:45:47
237.   deburns
Yes, I saw Robinson in the only game I attended at Ebbetts Field (a loss to the Reds), and a couple of games at the Polo Grounds. That's in addition to scores of games on the tube.
2008-05-14 16:47:21
238.   scareduck
195 - and if the Red Sox need bad outfielders, they can just call on their old buddies, the Dodgers.
2008-05-14 16:48:06
239.   Jon Weisman
They will never forget you 'til something new comes along
Where you been lately? There's a new post in town
Everybody loves it, don't they?
Now they're reading it, and you're still around

Oh, my, my
There's a new post in town
just another new post in town
Ooh, hoo
Everybody's talking 'bout the new post in town,
Ooh, hoo
Everybody's walking like the new post in town
There's a new post in town
There's a new post in town
I don't want to hear it
There's a new post in town
I don't want to hear it
There's a new post in town
There's a new post in town
There's a new post in town

2008-05-14 16:54:39
240.   bigcpa
1) Mike Piazza
2) Orel Hershiser
3) Pedro Guerrero
4) Kirk Gibson
5) Milton Bradley!

1) Kemp
2) Martin
3) Billingsley
4) LaRoche
5) Broxton

2008-05-14 16:57:17
241.   Eric Stephen
You voted last night! Does this post replace that? Also, anything legitimate from Bob? What about Xeifrank?
2008-05-14 16:58:51
242.   El Lay Dave
241 Does this post replace that?

According to 222 , yes.

2008-05-14 17:01:51
243.   Eric Stephen
bigcpa can highlight the "c" in yellow because he was the 100th -- and final -- entry.

I'll post the results in the game thread.

2008-05-14 17:36:47
244.   scareduck
This comment is a rule 11 violation, because it's being made under the influence of more Derek Lowe line drives allowed.


2008-05-14 21:05:14
245.   Yu-Hsing Chen
over and under on....

1. how many runs Park gives up in his start?

2. the innings where Kuo inevitablly enters the game?

I'd hope Hu does well though. he's had some decent stretches . need some consistent play time though. I'm hopin they don't Chris Burke him.

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