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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Elbow Boom
2005-06-22 08:52
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

We got three years, and maybe that's all. We got eight-inning wins and one-inning parties. And while Gagne waited for the rest of the franchise to become anywhere near as capable, his elbow went, and so he's blown nearly as many ligaments in his life (two) as he has save opportunities (six).

The organization wore a hard, sad expression on Tuesday. Gagne was what made them all special, even when they were mediocre. He was what made them contenders, even as they fell to the middle of the division.

As they'd just taken to opening their eyes every morning hoping for good news — an at-bat out of Milton Bradley perhaps, a start out of Odalis Perez, a double out of Jayson Werth — the worst came in a telephone call from Jobe himself.

"It hurts," Jeff Kent said. "It hurts because of who he is."

In a sport in which the games pile up so fast perspective can hardly keep up, Gagne kept the bullpen grounded, which in turn settled the pitching staff, which kept the Dodgers competitive. Most years. San Francisco had Bonds. New York had Jeter. Chicago had Sosa.

Los Angeles had Gagne, and the strain of getting to him, and the thrill of handing him the baseball.

- Tim Brown in the Times

* * *

And so the Dodgers beat on, boats against the current ... forced to compete in 2005 without Eric Gagne, Mike Piazza, Orel Hershiser, Pedro Guerrero, Fernando Valenzuela, Steve Garvey, Sandy Koufax, Duke Snider, Roy Campanella, Zack Wheat and everyone else.

The Dodgers have taken to losing like Jenny Craig. They have lost 35 of their past 56 games, matching the fifth-worst stretch in Los Angeles history:

1979: 17-39 (66-40 in other games, finished 83-79)
1992: 17-39 (46-60 in other games, finished 63-99)
1968: 18-38 (58-48 in other games, finished 76-86)
1987: 20-36 (53-53 in other games, finished 73-89)
1999: 20-36 (57-49 in other games, finished 77-85)
1967: 21-35 (52-54 in other games, finished 73-89)

The 1979 season presents the most interesting case, and the only faintly optimistic one in nearly half a century: a team that played .303 ball for approximately a third of the season played .623 ball for the other two-thirds. The '79ers started 19-18, stumbled by going 17-39, then went 47-22 over the second half of the year. This nearly best-case scenario recovery landed the Dodgers 83 total victories - a Renaldo Nehemiah-like sprint to third place.

In 1979, the Dodger offense was a mature, productive unit - like an Everybody Loves Raymond in season five. Steve Garvey, Davey Lopes, Ron Cey and Dusty Baker had some of their finest seasons. Bill Russell, Derrel Thomas and Steve Yeager didn't embarrass anyone. They all remained healthy. In part-time roles, Reggie Smith, Joe Ferguson and Gary Thomasson made us feel warm and fuzzy. (After a slow start, Smith was OPSing .825 with 10 homers in 68 games when he suffered a season-ending injury in July - and the Dodgers performed significantly better without him.)

On the mound, the Dodgers had three above-average starters in Jerry Reuss, Burt Hooton and Rookie of the Year Rick Sutcliffe and an average starter in Don Sutton. Where the team got slammed was in the rest of the pitching staff. They got absolutely nothing in the No. 5 slot from swingmen-by-necessity Doug Rau, Andy Messersmith and Charlie Hough, and little from the bullpen outside of the 1.11 ERA from future Valenzuela tutor Bobby Castillo.

Overall, 1979 was a bedrock team, using only 18 position players and 17 pitchers all year. (The 2005 Dodgers have used the exact same numbers, and it's only June 22.) The 1979 team, coming off consecutive National League pennants and managed by one of the game's most renowned motivators, had a great many pieces in place, but a lot of things went wrong before a lot of things went right.

Here in the middle of 2005, so much has gone wrong, the whole season feels like a torn elbow ligament.

The Dodger team ERA in June is 4.12; in May, it was 5.23. The Dodger team runs per game in June is 3.63; in May, it was 4.29. If the Dodgers had gotten their June pitching in May, they would have continued to be considered an elite team, and the current month of bad pitching and bad hitting easily summed up as an injury-induced rough spot.

But that's not the way it is. There's been poor execution (a word you need to be careful tossing around, given the prevailing mood), but there has been plenty of execution of the good kind. However, as far as luck and timing - there hasn't been much of the good kind at all.

The starting pitching has been born again, sort of - to no effect. It shows that underperforming players get better - and how that's not always enough. In July, Jayson Werth and Cesar Izturis might easily find the adqeuacy that Jeff Weaver and D.J. Houlton have displayed in June. The injuries, which seem to hit like wads of wet toilet paper on Halloween night, could be wiped away. But what will it all mean?

No matter what you think of the construction of the Dodger organization, some of the misfortune this season really is misfortune. But misfortune earns you no free rides. The Dodgers have to start doing things right if they want to win. Players have to find the answers to their slumps. The manager has to make smarter decisions. The general manager has to make the right moves. And the luck and timing have to decide for their own part that they want to correct themselves.

The season isn't over. But the margin for error is.

It's not about being optimistic or pessimistic. It's fairly clear what the odds are for the Dodgers. The game is just seeing how those odds will play out.

The fun part of the games is the winning. Right now, the fun part is only in our dreams.

* * *

Update: Some key Dodger Thoughts posts regarding Gagne:

April 23, 2003: Eric Gagne Is So Good
October 1, 2004: No Proof That Mota Trade Hurt Gagne
March 24, 2005: Mechanical Failure for Gagne?
May 23, 2005: Eric Gagne: Beyond the Saves

Comments (221)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-06-22 10:40:42
1.   DodgerJoe
My friend and brother have been discussing the Dodgers and their record.

We have come to conclusion that after the 3 home games against against SD, if the Dodgers are more than 7 games out, we should become sellers at the deadline and look to '06.

Or am I speaking too soon?

2005-06-22 10:50:01
2.   rageon
What exactly are you intending to sell? It's not like we're an old team that's full of veterans on soon-to-expire contracts. Other than Weaver, who do we have that would be an attractive option to trade at the deadline? And don't say Drew, Kent, Lowe, and Penny. We signed them for a reason, and they aren't going anywhere. Neither is Izturis, whether we like it or not.
2005-06-22 10:54:17
3.   mcrawford
That Streaks Analyzer at baseball-reference.com is pretty cool. I'd never noticed it.

Fortunately we are still only 6.5 games back, which isn't as bad as it could be, but still pretty bad. In '78 we were 5.5 games back on June 22nd, and ending up winning the division. But since then, I see 7 other years where we were this far back on June 22nd, and didn't win the division in any of them.

Year - GB - Finish
1978 - 5.5 - 1
1982 - 5.5 - 2
1986 - 5 - 5
1987 - 7.5 - 4
1989 - 7.5 - 4
1997 - 6 - 2
1999 - 7.5 - 3
2001 - 6.5 - 3

I didn't have the patience to go back further.

Interesting fact about June 22nd standings: in the last three years, we've been 1/2 game back, tied for first, and tied for first, respectively. This year is the anomaly.

2005-06-22 10:55:07
4.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
My alarm clock went off this morning as I lay in bed thinking about the season. I hit the snooze button and 9 minutes later it went off again. Needless to say I no longer have an alarm clock. It is now busted into quite a few pieces by the far wall of my bedroom.

This is a sad day in Dodger baseball. The last time I felt this bad is when Dukie got traded last year. This kinda zapped the energy right out of me.

Somehow, someway we must try stay afloat.

Although it was very difficult to get out of bed this morning.

Get well soon Eric, hopefully we will see you next May.

2005-06-22 10:55:35
5.   Midwest Blue
I think we could sell Izturis, but not until the deadline. How about Odalis? Other than that, I don't see any other possibilities. I'd gladly give away any of the following: Grabowski, Robles, Erickson, Repko.

CBS Sportsline seems pretty accusatory of JT on the Gagne injury, but I don't think it will get him fired:

http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/8585249

2005-06-22 10:56:01
6.   brendan glynn
There's been poor execution (a word you need to be careful tossing around, given the prevailing mood), but there has been plenty of execution of the good kind

This reminds me of one of my all time favorite sports quotes.

John McKay(former USC football coach and the first Tampa Bay Bucs coach) was asked after another poor performance by the expansion Buccaneer's what he thought of the "team's execution"

McKay answered "I'm in favor of it.

2005-06-22 10:56:58
7.   fanerman91
Brown seems pessimistic that Gagne will ever be the same. I guess we won't know for awhile...
2005-06-22 10:59:44
8.   Midwest Blue
The odds are not necessarily in favor, but on that point I'm going to try to stay optimistic. I'd love to see a new, young Dodger team next season come in and gut out a good record in the first half and then watch Gagne come in after the All-Star break and lead them to the pennant.

It's just too heartbreaking to think of anything less.

2005-06-22 11:00:57
9.   Bob Timmermann
The 1979 Dodgers were 7-20 in June.

The 2005 Dodgers are 7-13 in June. They have 8 more games to play in June.

But if they lose 16 straight games, they are headed for some pretty dismal company.

2005-06-22 11:01:21
10.   Nagman
One thing to consider is the team(s) we are chasing. Its not like we are 7 games back of the Cardinals. If the Padres weren't playing the Dodgers right now, they probably wouldn't be feeling so good about themselves.

I've been thinking about the whole deadline thing. I wonder if Depo thinks this division is still up for grabs and a couple solid additions might get us back in it.

2005-06-22 11:02:03
11.   Bob Timmermann
I never felt warm and fuzzy about Gary Thomasson.
2005-06-22 11:04:25
12.   DodgerJoe
Re #2 - we can give any pticher except Lowe, Penny or Brazoban. We can trade anybody on the roster except Drew, Bradley, Kent and Izturis.

Let's hope it doesn't come to that and we are buyers (Adam Dunn I hope).

2005-06-22 11:05:16
13.   scareduck
What, the much-heralded return of Jose Valentin doesn't thrill you with hope?

It's gonna be a brutal season, I think. And what's really awful is that I have this feeling in the back of my head that, if the Dodgers actually do manage to win one, they'll turn right around and lose another fifteen in a row.

2005-06-22 11:05:32
14.   Bob Timmermann
The Reds-Cardinals game isn't on Extra Innings today, nor is the Nats-Bucs game.

But I can watch Colorado and Houston!

2005-06-22 11:06:18
15.   the OZ
Steve Henson picked up on BP's piece on the Dodgers, quoting the runs/game stat with and without Milton. Whether he found it because he reads BP or because Jon referenced it here, it's good to know that the guy on the Dodger beat is at least willing to look beyond standard-issue fluff and blind speculation, and is most a very smart and savvy baseball writer.

At this point, I'll take the little victories and say "thank you."

2005-06-22 11:08:36
16.   Bob Timmermann
I can watch some "Smartball" too. The White Sox-Royals game is available.

I will stick with the Yankees and D-Rays for the time being. It's 2-2 in the fourth. My goal today is to match my cat in terms of sleeping however. She has set a high standard however.

2005-06-22 11:11:38
17.   Bob Timmermann
To K or not to K that is the question:

http://tinyurl.com/8xxrh

2005-06-22 11:13:13
18.   mcrawford
We've been talking a lot about Adam Dunn recently, so here's something: Dunn hit two more solo homers already today, which gives him 20 HR and 39 RBI for the year so far.

I found 4 players who finished the year with 20 or more homers and less than 2 RBI per HR.

2001 Bonds - 73 HR, 137 RBI - obviously he almost never got a chance with men on base
2000 Ron Gant - 20 HR, 38 RBI
1997 Mark McGwire - 24 HR, 42 RBI
1990 Kevin Maas - 21 HR, 41 RBI

This is of more interest (i.e., frustration) because Dunn is on my fantasy team. But my point is, what a weird guy to be in the #7 slot. If we were Reds fans we'd probably be calling for the manager to get fired there too.

2005-06-22 11:14:31
19.   Steve
Too late!
2005-06-22 11:15:25
20.   mcrawford
McGwire was traded in 1997, so those stats were only for StL. He finished with 58 HR and 123 RBI overall, so he would drop off the list.
2005-06-22 11:16:24
21.   Jacob L
My first years watching baseball were 77 and 78, so after 2 pennants, 79 was a huge letdown. In the back of my head, I associated the teams struggles that year with Welch's juice. I looked up his stats on b-ref, though, and he wasn't that bad. 3.98 in 81 innings. It was his worst ERA until very late in his career, but it shouldn't have been bad enough to sink an otherwise contending team. Is my memory faulty?

The Gagne news today was just like the other shoe dropping. I can't think of much to say.

2005-06-22 11:20:52
22.   mcrawford
#17 - that's a pretty nice article for a major paper, very surprising. The one part he disagrees about is so subtle, but he gets it right. (That is, he doesn't go off about "Those stat guys are totally wrong, I know that strikeouts are important and everyone else knows it too, yadda yadda yadda.") Pretty impressive for a newspaper.
2005-06-22 11:22:41
23.   Marty
I've often wondered what Koufax' injury really was and whether Tommy John surgery would have fixed it if it had been available at the time. Or whether it was some other type injury.
2005-06-22 11:23:10
24.   Bob Timmermann
Wasn't Bob Welch drunk for most of the 1979 season? Which year did he go into recovery?
2005-06-22 11:25:53
25.   Bob Timmermann
I don't think Tommy John surgery can help you when you have arthritis. That was what made Koufax retire.

I suppose that modern NSAID's might have allowed him to pitch longer, but in the Leavy book, it sounds like he had pain for a long time. And he had circulatory problems too.

2005-06-22 11:45:44
26.   fanerman91
I bet we're gonna hear a lot about "overuse" now... though this seems to all have happened from a game of pepper (and subsequent mismanagement of the injury thereafter). Is there any chance that Gagne "wore down" or is this just some freak pepper thing?

What IS pepper anyway? I hadn't heard of it til Gagne got injured.

2005-06-22 11:48:25
27.   Berkeley Doug
I was going to post this yesterday, but seeing Jon mention luck perhaps make this more appropriate today. I remember many, many moons ago the political commentator George Will wrote a book titled "Men at Work" where he profiled Cal Ripken Jr., Tony Gwynn, and Orel Hershiser. I forgot which profile it was in, but in the book he discussed the idea of luck in baseball. While luck by definition is totally random, he discussed the idea of players or teams putting themselves in situations where they can be lucky.

Perhaps this totally doesn't apply to the Dodger's situation right now, but it seems like some of the moves by Tracy this year (i.e. batting a .200 hitter 2nd and .300 hitter lower in the order, having the Drew try to bunt a runner over to scoring position, or leaving pitches in too long on occasions) are minimizing the Dodger's opportunities to be lucky. Anyways, just a few thoughts.

BTW, I rented "The Natural" so if the Dodgers happen to lose tonight I can watch something baseball related that provides happy thoughts.

2005-06-22 11:49:37
28.   Bob Timmermann
Looking ahead to the Angels series, the LA Times reports that Brendan Donnelly will likely start his suspension this weekend. And both Steve Finley (bad shoulder) and Orlando Cabrera (bad elbow) are nursing injuries so one of them will probably be disabled so another reliever can be called up.

Frankie Rodriguez has looked pretty shaky in recent games, but the Angel starters have all been pretty good and of course Vladimir Guerrero is hitting everything in sight.

And probably a few things he can't see.

2005-06-22 11:52:23
29.   Icaros
I'm hoping for another Vladimir headfirst slide in game one.
2005-06-22 11:53:29
30.   Berkeley Doug
#26 - You must not have ever played Little League. :)

From a baseball lingo website:

"Pepper is a common pre-game exercise where one player bunts brisk grounders and line drives to a group of fielders who are standing about 20 feet away. The fielders try to throw it back as quickly as possible. The batter hits the return throw. (Some ballparks ban pepper games because wild pitches could land in the stands and injure spectators)."

Perhaps that last sentence should now be amended to say "and injure star relief pitchers".

2005-06-22 11:53:43
31.   JT Dutch
... As much as it may sound blasphemous to say it, anything that will get Jim Tracy out of the Dodger manager's chair is fine with me -- this season has turned from a euphoric dream into a nightmare, and I can barely sit and watch a game these days without seeing Tracy bunt his way out of an inning, or refuse to put one of his best power hitters in the starting lineup, or wait until a starting pitcher implodes due to being visibly and obviously gassed before pulling him.

I have never, NEVER found myself so frustrated with the decisions of my team's manager on a game-by-game, inning-by-inning basis as I am with this one. I'm sure Jim Tracy is a great guy, and a competent bench coach or base coach, but he has been completely in over his head as a field manager. Enough is enough. If it takes a losing season, fine. Every game that the Dodgers take the field with this manager in their dugout, they are playing the equivalent of a man or two short, and the teams that they are battling in the field don't need and shouldn't have that kind of handicap.

The removal of Jim Tracy, if it comes to pass, will be the enduring silver lining behind this lost season.

2005-06-22 11:57:18
32.   Icaros
"Am I hurt that a commenter who shares my own initials is calling for my dismissal?"
2005-06-22 11:57:49
33.   heato
In the Suns game today, Jacksonville had three players ejected in the top of the seventh inning. It looks like all three were arguing balls and strikes.
2005-06-22 11:59:35
34.   Icaros
Where can I follow the Suns games, heato?
2005-06-22 12:01:26
35.   Icaros
I found it.
2005-06-22 12:04:21
36.   Bob Timmermann
Paul O'Neill thinks the Devil Rays need to sacrifice more.

Probably because their lights out bullpen can hold a small lead. However, Tampa Bay is behind in the game.

2005-06-22 12:05:08
37.   fanerman91
FJT needs a new poll.

Instead of "Fire: x"

It should be

"Hire: x"

For example...

Hire:
Kevin Kennedy
Jon Weisman

etc

2005-06-22 12:05:55
38.   Icaros
LaRoche just drew a walk. Yes!!!
2005-06-22 12:06:45
39.   Bob Timmermann
The Devil Rays did not sacrifice in the 7th as the Yankee announcers thought they would.

Instead, Nick Green hit a 3-run homer to put the team up 5-3.

2005-06-22 12:07:57
40.   dagwich
Interesting comments WRT Gagne embedded here:
http://futilityinfielder.com/blog/2005/06/blue-turns-to-rage.shtml

It lays some of the blame at DePo's door. But it does make me wonder whether maintaining team health is more of an art or a science.

2005-06-22 12:09:28
41.   Bob Timmermann
Are Jim Tracy and Jerry Narron the same person?

In the bottom of the 8th, the Reds are up 7-6. The first two batters reach and Felipe Lopez is up. Lopez is batting .290 with a .340 OBP and 12 homers.

So Narron has Lopez sacrifice. This brings up Rich Aurilia, who is batting .266 with a .298 OBP (but was 3 for 4 today).

Aurilia struck out and Sean Casey flied out to end the inning.

2005-06-22 12:15:19
42.   Sam DC
Oh my god Bob that link you posted at the end of the prior thread is hysterical (in context).

My favorite line: "Behind her, two baby sea turtles scoot along a beach."

2005-06-22 12:20:20
43.   Bob Timmermann
Some more "Smartball" from the White Sox today.

Carl Everett has a 3-run homer and the White Sox lead the Royals 5-0.

2005-06-22 12:22:47
44.   Sam DC
I think you must be losing ground on your cat, Bob.
2005-06-22 12:24:26
45.   Bob Timmermann
My cat doesn't drink coffee.
2005-06-22 12:24:58
46.   fanerman91
Poor thing's missing out.
2005-06-22 12:27:01
47.   Bob Timmermann
Not that I intend to experiment, but wouldn't an animal fare poorly if they ingested the same amount of caffeine as a human did in a cup of coffee? I weigh around 200 lbs and my cat weighs about 10 lbs, so I would think that I would probably just send her into heart failure.

Although getting her drink to a whole cup would be tough with her lack of opposable digits and all that.

2005-06-22 12:27:38
48.   JT Dutch
... Hah, Icaros. For me, the JT is for my first and middle initials, but I gotcha.

Perhaps some background for me is in order, being that I haven't posted here very much at all. Not to pull the "seniority" card, but I've been a Dodger fan since 1980. I remember a little of 1978 and 1979, but my age was in single digits then. What cemented me as a Dodger fan forever were those wonderful final three games of the 1980 season, with the Dodgers sweeping the Astros just to tie for the division lead. The Dodgers, who never televised home games in those days, made exceptions due to the fact that the games were already sold out. The games were heart-pounding, and the crowds at the Stadium were absolutely unbelievable.

I like to think I've learned a great deal about baseball since then, and I know that probably is a big reason why Lasorda often got a pass on bad decisions, while Tracy gets little slack from me. I think, looking back, the reason why I loved Lasorda as a manager was because he managed from his gut ALL THE TIME. Sometimes, he paid for it (1985 NLCS) -- sometimes, he came out smelling like a rose (1988 WS) -- but at least he stuck to his guns; he didn't waffle back and forth between his gut and the numbers, as Tracy has constantly done through these last several years. And, beyond Lasorda's managerial strategies, Tommy gave the team an identity and fought for the team's honor at every opportunity.

As a fan, and I'm sure as a player, you knew what to expect from Lasorda, and you KNEW that the Dodgers would never be pushed around or intimidated while he was the manager. Does anyone have that feeling while Tracy is the manager? Certainly, I don't. I don't think the Dodgers have ever truly replaced Tommy since he retired, and I would love to see a true Dodger come back to this team and manage -- maybe a Davey Lopes. Maybe an Orel Hershiser. Perhaps a Kevin Kennedy ... he got his start in the Dodger organization, didn't he? I know that this team can't truly go back to its roots, but at least I would like to see a semblance of that on the field.

Anyway, enough rambling.

2005-06-22 12:28:12
49.   Steve
I don't understand when the 2 spot in the lineup became the new 8 spot.
2005-06-22 12:29:37
50.   Jon Weisman
49 - Me neither. It's like Tuesday becoming the new Friday.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-06-22 12:32:28
51.   Sam DC
Nationals just had their 2 hitter bunt with a man on first and one out in the top ninth up by one. Bunt failed (they got the lead runner), Guillen grounded out, inning over leaving Nick Johnson holding his bat on deck.
2005-06-22 12:32:29
52.   GoBears
Oh cool, then today must be the weekend! I guess I won't go to the office after all...
2005-06-22 12:35:50
53.   scareduck
Dutch -- is this the same Dutchinto from the Dodger boards?

I had a lot of respect for Lasorda when I was a kid and he was running the show. Having learned more about him, I find him a gasbag, a vacant cheerleader, and a semi-competent manager who earned the reputation of doing the least with the most in baseball.

2005-06-22 12:36:46
54.   Bob Timmermann
The 1988 Dodgers had an odd collection of #2 hitters. Alfredo Griffin, Mike Scioscia, and anybody else Lasorda thought was healthy.

Scioscia batted 2nd, 6th, and 8th.

Griffin batted 2nd at the start of the year and was primarily a #8 hitter toward the end of the season.

Sometimes Griffin led off and Sax batted second.

I think Danny Heep would have been the best choice!

2005-06-22 12:39:52
55.   Steve
Was Hatcher hitting second or third in the World Series? Can't remember now.

I still can't believe I typed that, and I still can't believe we won. Almost two decades later.

2005-06-22 12:42:07
56.   Bob Timmermann
Sheesh, aren't people here old enough to remember Walter Alston?

He was around year after year and the man got almost ZERO respect from the local press or baseball people.

Until he retired and people looked back at his record and realized "Hey, this guy won four World Series!"

Alston was not a good quote at all. He was just there. Day after day after day. Year after year after year.

If you can find Bill James' book on managers, he has a tremendous essay about Alston. He's one of the few people who's ever studied Alston in any sort of depth.

2005-06-22 12:44:20
57.   Bob Timmermann
Hatcher batted in the third slot in the World Series. Franklin Stubbs batted second.

In the NLCS, Hatcher batted second in the last six games.

2005-06-22 12:47:22
58.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
Today's clipping brought to you by
dodgerblues.com

June 21, 2005 - Padres 2, Dodgers 1
Goodbye to the Jungle

Leave it to the Dodgers to lose three times on Tuesday. First, they lost Paul Bako for the season. Then, they lost Eric Gagne—probably forever. Finally, they lost their eighth game in a row, getting knocked off by the Padres. As familiar as the Dodgers have become with losing, Tuesday's losses were pretty friggin' devastating... well, except for the loss of Bako, of course, who's long been forgotten. As for the loss of Gagne, allow us to speak for all Dodger fans when we say the following: FUCK. While the news wasn't a surprise, it was disturbing nonetheless to hear the definitive word that Gagne will once again have pieces of Tommy John surgically attached to his pitching elbow. It's even more disturbing considering that the Dodgers didn't do a whole hell of a lot to stop this from happening. (See 'Asshole of the Moment' from March 25th.) Since Gagne's career as a Dodger is likely over (unless you believe Dr. Jim Tracy who says he could be back by the 2006 All Star break), we present Goodbye to the Jungle...

Goodbye to the jungle
No more fun 'n games
Now a bunch of relievers
We don't know the names
We are the Dodger fans who cry
Knowing where Tommy John can lead
Gagne's got the money, funny
If only it was just herpes

No more jungle
Goodbye to the jungle
Watch him miraculously heal please, please
I wanna do some speed

Goodbye to the jungle
Amazing day after day
But too many goddamn innings
So it's the price you pay
And you're not a sexy girl
Though you still made us weak in the knees
You excelled in the bright lights
Filthy hat, goggles, and goatee
In the jungle
Goodbye to the jungle
Where's my, my, my morphine?
I, I wanna swallow some chlorine

Goodbye to the jungle
It gets worse here everyday
Eric Gagne was an animal
With him the Dodgers could play
If you've got a closer for the team
He'll break down eventually
You can have everything you want
But you'd better not ask for Gagne healthy

And when you win the Cy you never
Ever want to come down, AAAAH!

Do you know where you are
You're in the jungle, Yhency
Dodgers gonna die
They will bungle
Goodbye to the jungle
Remember him being nasty, nasty
In the jungle
Goodbye to the jungle
Where's my, my, my morphine?
No more jungle
Goodbye to the jungle

Watch him earn $18 million—jeez, jeez
No more jungle
Goodbye to the jungle
Watch him bring you to your
It's gonna bring us down
AAAAH!

2005-06-22 12:48:26
59.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
Another dodgerblues.com clipping

Dodger fan bored to death, literally

There's no denying that the Dodgers have had quite a few casualties this season. Darren Dreifort, of course, was done before the season even started—as was Ross Porter. Jose Valentin was lost early on. Eric Gagne might be out for the year. No one has any idea when Milton Bradley might return. Those casualties, however, pale in comparison to the loss suffered Monday night.

Nafregdod Williams, a sixteen-year-old high school junior from Arcadia, had been a Dodger fan his entire life. Conceived just moments after Kirk Gibson hobbled across home plate on that remarkable night in 1988, Nafregdod always felt a connection to the boys in blue. Maybe it was the fact that his name was 'Dodger Fan' spelled backwards. Maybe it was the chance meeting with Cory Snyder at a McDonalds in 1993. Or maybe it was the pair of Todd Benzinger autographed underpants he wore until 5th grade. Whatever the reason, Naffy (as his friends would call him) bled Dodger blue. "He insisted on sleeping with blue wristbands," his father recalled. "In 4th grade he grew his hair out and demanded that we call him Raul." Naffy might have been confused about his ethnicity, but he was never confused about his love for the Dodgers. It was that love, however, that eventually cost poor Naffy his life.

The past few months, friends said, Naffy didn't seem like his normal self. He'd turn on the Dodger game, but by the fifth inning was staring into space. "A few weeks back I was over at his house," said fifteen-year-old Marcus Eikniwtasayag, "and he actually tried to glue his eyes shut with rubber cement during a Jayson Werth at-bat." Naffy became progressively disinterested in Jayson Werth at-bats, and soon was unconcerned with Jason Phillips at-bats as well. During Friday's loss to the Chicago White Sox, Naffy's mother discovered a three-foot string of drool hanging from her son's mouth. It was the look in Naffy's eyes that worried her most, though. "He had that look that Jason Grabowski always has when he takes strike three," she said, wiping away tears.

Naffy's Dodger apathy continued through the weekend. Then came Monday night. After Cesar Izturis flied out to begin the game, Naffy went online, desperately trying to take back the 1,800 All-Star votes he'd submitted for the Dodgers' shortstop a few weeks prior. Before he could even type in 'mlb.com', the Dodgers were done in the first inning. Naffy sighed, and tried typing again, but the Dodgers were done in the second. Naffy slowly closed his eyes, failing to hear his mom calling him for dinner. "We're having Dodger Dogs," she yelled, as the scent of beef franks drifted into his room. Naffy smelled nothing, though, as his olfactory nerves had already begun to shut down. A few minutes later Naffy was suddenly awoken by the whiff of a Dodger bat. His tortured eyes, however, were only open long enough to see Izturis, Jason Repko, and J.D. Drew go down on strikes. By the sixth inning, Naffy's breathing had slowed—sort of like a Gagne fastball. By the eighth inning, Naffy's heart stopped beating. By the time Olmedo Saenz popped up to end the game (leaving the tying run in scoring position), Nafregdod Williams was gone. Bored to death.

2005-06-22 12:49:49
60.   JT Dutch
#53

"and a semi-competent manager who earned the reputation of doing the least with the most in baseball"

... The results of the Dodgers in 1983 and 1988 would disagree with that assessment.

Also, in 1985, when the Dodgers had a losing record and were bumbling in the process ... Lasorda was the only guy who refused to panic. The team straightened out and ended up one of the best in L.A. Dodger history. If not for the injury to Guerrero, the Dodgers probably win it all that year.

#55

... Hatcher hit third and played left. Lasorda simply crossed out "Gibson" and wrote in "Hatcher", and got two homers in five games out of Mickey. 1988 was amazing, wasn't it?

2005-06-22 12:53:35
61.   Bob Timmermann
1983 was a really weird year in baseball. The four division champs all had a lot of flaws. The Orioles aren't going to throw their World Series win back, but the Dodgers and Phillies were both subpar division champs.
2005-06-22 12:53:46
62.   gvette
#53 If people are looking for someone to blame for Gagne's injury, how many first class arms did Lasorda wreck with his old school overuse? Fernando, Hershiser, R. Martinez for starters;

#48 Being a fan since 1980 isn't that much of a "seniority card" on this site, since some commenters are still ticked off to have been eyewitnesses to the '62 Alston/Dodger collapse. The Dodgers telecast home games as early as '71, when they showed the last few home games of the 71 division race on local channel 11;

Part of the collapse of the '79 Dodgers was the loss of Tommy John to the Yankees, his replacement, Andy Messersmith was shot, and injuries to Rau, Forster, and Welch. Thomasson was like Cory Snyder, he could hit the ball a mile, if he hit it at all.

#23 I recall reading somewhere Dr. JObe being quoted as saying that Drysdale's career could have been saved by modern surgery techniques, but not Koufax.

2005-06-22 12:59:44
63.   Bob Timmermann
I have vague memories of 1971 when the Dodgers had Jerry Doggett broadcast a game from San Diego between the Giants and Padres because the Dodgers needed the Giants to lose to stay alive in the race.

I was just five, so I don't know if this is true or if I just was picking up the San Diego broadcast.

2005-06-22 13:06:44
64.   gvette
Bob, I think your right. The Dodgers closed out against Houston at home that was on local TV, with Sutton winning, while the Giants won the division in San Diego.

Looking back, that wasn't a real exciting pennant race, except for a good fight at Candlestick between the Giants and Buckner. Everytime the Giants would win so would the Dodgers, and vice versa. Dick (Don't call me Richie) Allen was way cool though, thereby guaranteeing that Campanis and Alston would ship him out the next year.

2005-06-22 13:11:53
65.   Dodgerkid
More good news for the Dodgers comes from Baseball America. Failed prospect Greg Miller has yet to pitch competitively:

After two shoulder surgeries, Dodgers lefthander Greg Miller is still on the road to recovery at the club's extended spring training facility in Vero Beach, Fla. The Dodgers had hoped to get Miller to an affiliate in June, but the supplemental first-round pick in 2002 had another setback and his timetable was pushed back by about a month.

"(We) got real excited three weeks ago when he threw in an extended game," farm director Terry Collins said. "He threw 94 (mph) and all of a sudden his shoulder started to bother him again and we shut him down. He's back in the bullpen, and we're hoping that perhaps by the end of July he's going to pitch in a game some place."

Miller hasn't pitched since 2003, when he established himself as the top lefthander in the minors. He went 11-4, 2.49 with 111 strikeouts at high Class A Vero Beach, then racked up 40 more strikeouts in just 27 innings at Double-A Jacksonville before the surgeries shut him down. "Dr. (Frank) Jobe explained to me that this is going to happen," Collins said of Miller's setbacks during rehab. "We're talking about a guy who hasn't pitched in two years, but we feel that Greg is still going to be fine."

2005-06-22 13:14:01
66.   JT Dutch
#53

"how many first class arms did Lasorda wreck with his old school overuse? Fernando, Hershiser, R. Martinez for starters"

... Never bought it back then, and I still don't.

Hershiser turned in two 260+ inning seasons and one 250+ inning season before having surgery at age 31. Greg Maddux was turning in 260+ innings a year around the same time, but stayed healthy.

Ramon Martinez had only one season of 230+ innings and got hurt two years after. His brother, Pedro, had two seasons of 230+ innings back-to-back, and pitched 200+ innings the next two years after that before getting hurt.

Fernando was probably around 30 or 31 when he got hurt in 1988 (I don't buy that he was born in 1960) and who knows how many innings he had pitched in the Mexican League prior to joining the Dodgers. The screwball has always been a very tough pitch on the arm (some say it IS the toughest), and yet he gave no indication of slipping for six straight seasons of 250+ innings.

Luck and normal aging and wear and tear have more to do with these three guys getting hurt than anything Lasorda did.

2005-06-22 13:18:18
67.   Marty
Lasorda didn't burn arms up? That's how Dusty learned to do it.
2005-06-22 13:20:21
68.   Marty
Lasorda was also worse than Glenn Hoffman as third base coach. My group of friends used to call him "wave em home Tommy"
2005-06-22 13:22:13
69.   fanerman91
Pitch counts are a better indicator of pitcher fatigue than innings pitched. Though they're still flawed... I would expect that Maddux threw less pitches per season/outing than Hershiser though.

One theory I heard (can't remember where I read it), which makes sense, is, "Pitching isn't bad for your arm. Pitching tired is bad for your arm." The form itself isn't the biggest factor in pitcher injuries. It's when pitchers alter their mechanics cough Gagne cough due to injury or from just being tired over the course of a game that they truly destroy themselves.

Not sure how accurate that is, but take it for what its worth.

2005-06-22 13:22:20
70.   Monterey Chris
If Walter Alston managed in the internet days, there would have been a website called "Fire Walter Alston." In fact, I wonder if every major league manager has a website devoted to the cause of getting them fired?
2005-06-22 13:27:57
71.   Suffering Bruin
There is but no question that Walter would've had a website calling for his firing. The only question would've been how many. After his first year in Brooklyn, I think there would've been several dozen websites calling for his head. Roger Kahn would've had a blog created for just that purpose.

And Alston would've come back the next season and won.

After 1962, websites galore. Leo would've provided exclusive and anonymous tips to everyone in town why Alston was a doofus.

And Alston would've come back and won. Again.

He was my favorite human being as a manager so I cannot discuss Alston dispassionately. He did many things early in his career that I thought were counterproductive. Oddly enough, after he secured the job for good, his teams stopped winning ('74 was the exception) but he became, I think, a better manager than ever before.

2005-06-22 13:30:33
72.   mcrawford
#56 - I just finished reading James's book about managers, and it was very interesting reading. I enjoyed how he generally avoided the question of which managers are good and which ones are bad, and focused on questions about things that managers do differently from one another. It really helps to have some sort of way to think about things.

For Walter Alston, the thing that struck me was that the practice of respecting your players in public started with him. That was striking because I had never thought about that before, I had just always assumed that's how things were (I'm not that old). But when Alston started, managers would berate their players in public, say things about them to the press, and so on. Alston stopped all of that, and that's a big influence on how things are today.

I think all the things we get upset about with Jim Tracy, bunting too much, not playing this guy enough, et cetera, aren't as important as we make them out to be. Important, but bunting too much probably isn't going to cost you the pennant. Ultimately the manager's job is to somehow lead the team, get the players to do their jobs. I don't know if Tracy does a good job of that, it's tough to say.

2005-06-22 13:31:28
73.   Marty
Alston's personality makes Tracy seem like Robin Williams. But he was also a favorite of mine and did win 4 world series and get to a bunch more.
2005-06-22 13:31:32
74.   Bob Timmermann
Toward the end of his career, Alston started to hate intentionally walking hitters.

The 1974 team walked 9 batters intentionally. Most of them were early in the year and the Dodgers got burned just about every time.

So Alston must have just figured, "What the heck! I'll just let Mike Marshall get the batter out."

But why was Steve Garvey the MVP in 1974? Why not Jim Wynn?

2005-06-22 13:31:49
75.   Monterey Chris
71--I agree with you. I think Alston was a great manager. One of the things that has made me very proud of being a Dodger fan is that the Dodgers had two managers for such a long period of time, even when fans called for their heads. We were never like the Giants or Yankees, who would fire their managers at every shot they get.
2005-06-22 13:32:06
76.   Sushirabbit
They could have their own blog-site called baseballfryingpan.com

FireJimTracy.baseballfryingpan.com

2005-06-22 13:32:38
77.   fanerman91
#75,
Are you implying something?
2005-06-22 13:37:12
78.   JT Dutch
#69

"One theory I heard (can't remember where I read it), which makes sense, is, "Pitching isn't bad for your arm. Pitching tired is bad for your arm.""

... I think Bill James had a theory for finding out how many pitches were made after the pitcher was tired; which, I believe, centered around how fast the pitcher's trailing leg whipped around to correct the pitcher's balance AFTER he had made each pitch. I've never seen this theory put forth by anyone else, and I haven't seen anything to really prove or disprove it. It is interesting to have in mind when I see games today.

2005-06-22 13:37:19
79.   Bob Timmermann
But the Dodgers did fire their manager after the 1950 season and after the 1953 season? But a lot of that was because Burt Shotton was old and Charlie Dressen was an arrogant gasbag who demanded a multiyear contract from O'Malley and thought himself irreplaceable.

As my father once advised me, "If you have an employee who tells you who is irreplaceable, fire him."

My dad tended not to have a lot of employees at the store he owned. He just used his sons, who were unfireable, most of the time.

2005-06-22 13:38:47
80.   Suffering Bruin
74 - I don't think I ever read any explanation why Alston turned against the intentional walk but 1974 was not the beginning of it, IIRC.
I think of the teams that allowed the fewest intentional walks, more than a few were managed by Alston.

Far as I know, there was no discussion of this back in the day. Only as years go by do we see soemthing like this as historical. I maintain that the '74 record of only nine intentional walks allowed will never be broken.

2005-06-22 13:38:57
81.   gvette
It must have been wild to watch Alston try to manage with Durocher breathing down his neck.

Whenever you see an early 60's TV sitcom that features the Dodgers (Mr. Ed, The Munsters) it's always Leo front and center with Drysdale, and the other players, never Alston.
Supposedly Autry decided against hiring Durocher as the first Angel manager, because Leo's personality couldn't handle managing an expansion team.

Pro Tracy sportswriters compare Tracy's style to Alston, then again they also tried to compare Bill Russell to Alston. Bottom line for 2005, as always, you don't win if you don't have the talent.

2005-06-22 13:39:58
82.   Suffering Bruin
79 - what happened when you told your dad you were irreplaceable? ;-)
2005-06-22 13:40:04
83.   JT Dutch
#74

... If I remember correctly, I read that Garvey was a write-in candidate for the ASG in 1974, and won the MVP for that game as well as the season's MVP. It was just the beginning of his days as one of the fair-haired boys of the Dodgers and the NL. Jimmy Wynn or Joe Morgan would have been a better selection, undoubtedly.

2005-06-22 13:41:35
84.   Bob Timmermann
As for today's Giants, I think Felipe Alou will manage that team as long as he wants to. The Giants have had two managers since 1993.

Since Joe Torre took over the Yankees in 1996, the Dodgers have had five managers.

But when Bill Russell was fired midseason in 1998, he was the first Dodger to be fired in midseason since 1898. Unless you consider Leo Durocher's departure for the Giants in 1948 to be a firing, but I've always thought it was something of a mutual agreement between Durocher and Rickey.

2005-06-22 13:43:03
85.   molokai
/vent on/
I'm all for laying some blame on JT for his bizarre ability to find a way to keep Choi on the bench and his strange bunting strategy but how come Depo gets a free pass. He's the one who has populated the roster with the likes of Robles/Repko/A Perez/M Edwards/M Rose/P Bako/Grabowski/Erickson and so forth. JT has to use what he's given and he's been given a bunch of AAAA players.
Sheehan at BP was dead on with his assessment of Depo right now. When is he going to move the dead weight? How could he let us run into the most important 10 game group of the season and have these AAAA players starting on our team.

If were going to have a group of people playing 3b who can't hit anything other then a single they should at least be able to play defense to make up for the lack of offense but Edwards and Perez just suck. Thinking Valentin is the answer come late July is just as foolhardy or doesn't anyone remember his incredible slide from usefullness to pure crap before his injury. Cody Ross, come on, you'll pine for Repko after 10 games of Cody Ross. The guy is repeating AAA for the 3rd year. If you can't put up a line that dominates when your repeating your 3rd year of AAA you have no future playing in the big leagues other then as a 4th or 5th outfielder.

Everyone talks Dunn but we could use Joe Randa. He's on a year deal, the Red's have no use for him at this point in the season and he'd be very cheap. D Lowe would embrace him. Since Aaron Hill has proven he can hit in the big leagues Corey Koskie could also be available but we'd have to take on his contract when he comes off the DL. I don't know why everyone is satisfied with our 3rd base play. Edwards has some uses, starting at 3b is not one of them. Getting an average 3b is not going to solve our problem but it will solve one of them. Valentin could then become the supersub and help out at 2nd/SS/OF.

This is a platoon team that is not being platooned. Repko/Perez/Werth/Saenz should not be facing RHP. But other then Grabowksi, Depo has not given JT any usefull LHP platoon choices. For some reason everyone thinks Werth can hit RHP. His line last year was 241/320/421. Thats sucks for a corner OF. Most of his serious damage came against LHP.
We can hope he returns to be the lefty killer but to expect him to be an everyday starter looks to be another Depo mistake. Maybe the 200 ab's is to small a sample size. I was willing to give him a chance to be an everyday starter but of all the Dodgers who have ticked me off this year he is number one on the list. His apathetic play this year just grinds on me. It is like some Stepford Wive has taken control of his body.

Hoping our rule 5 can outpitch the Padre's number one pick. Padre's are missing Loretta/ Nevin/R Hernandez so it is not like they don't have their own problems but lucky for them they are playing us.
/vent off/

2005-06-22 13:43:04
86.   Bob Timmermann
I got angry with my dad once and told him that I didn't want to work for him anymore.

He told me I could find a new place to live.

That ended my lone bout of teenage rebellion very quickly.

2005-06-22 13:43:42
87.   Steve
70 -- If there is not, it is very likely there ought to be. Outside of United States Senators, there isn't a smaller group that appears as singularly unequipped for what they do as managers.
2005-06-22 13:44:57
88.   Bob Timmermann
molokai,
That was a top-notch vent. Most vents aren't that well thought out.
2005-06-22 13:47:30
89.   molokai
# 73
If you read the Sandy Koufax book by Jane Leavy you might change your opinion of Alston. He was certainly not a favorite of our greatest LA Dodger. Anyone who is a Dodger fan should read the book. It is great.
2005-06-22 13:52:12
90.   Monterey Chris
#77,
I don't know if implying or stating in outright. I hope McCourt returns the team to the days of the O'Malley's. It is interesting to read or listen to analysis of the Dodgers everyday...if I go to LATimes or ESPN, every loss is the fault of DePodesta and "The Trade" and every win is in spite of DePodesta and "The Trade." And then I go to DT, where, using the same data and often the same logic, every loss is the fault of Jim Tracy and every win is in spite of Jim Tracy. On this site, the heavy role of injuries excuse DePodesta from blame (after all, how can the Dodgers win with a AAA team), but those injuries do not factor into Jim Tracy's losing.

When Brazoban blew a save last week, I immediately checked this website knowing that I would find out it was Tracy's fault. And, sure enough, there were the comments. Tracy should not have taken Dessens, direct from the disabled list, out after only six innings. And he should not have removed Sanchez after two innings. The loss wasn't Brazoban's fault...it was Tracy's fault. Can you imagine if Dessens had stayed in for the 7th and allowed runs or Sanchez had pitched the 9th and allowed runs...the call would have been loud and clear for Tracy to be fired.

While I do not like Joe Morgan, he was right on a few points the other night. The White Sox swept us because they execute better than we do. If they are asked to bunt, they get the bunt down (is that too much for any major league quality player to do?). When they execute the bunt, they almost always score in that inning. They find ways to win (hence, Morgan's line, "winners find ways to win," a line which he stole from Vin Scully. (By the way, it is the same idea as the post about "luck" earlier in this thread.) If the White Sox (at least at this point in time...it might not continue) get a walk in a late inning, they figure out how to convert it. If they get an umps call that goes their way, they take advantage of it. They manufacture wins. The Dodgers do not have the same ability to make that happen. That greatly hampers Tracy's hand.

We are losing because injuries are forcing us to play with a AAA team and we do not have the ability to manufacture wins because we are not a team that is strong on fundamentals (small things like getting down the bunt and getting out of the way so the catcher can throw a ball to first and not letting the infielders field balls instead of throwing out mitts at them). Jim Tracy is a good scapegoat, but there are real causes to our losing.

2005-06-22 13:56:25
91.   Steve
And then I go to DT, where, using the same data and often the same logic, every loss is the fault of Jim Tracy and every win is in spite of Jim Tracy.

That's not true, and I suspect that you know that's not true.

2005-06-22 13:57:56
92.   Monterey Chris
The impression I get of Alston was that he was tough. (He never understood hair dryers in the clubhouse.) I imagine that he did not use intentional walks often because it is not an honorable win if you win by avoiding the other team's best player. Face them head on and beat them. I don't have anything to support that, it is just my impression of him.
2005-06-22 13:58:57
93.   Monterey Chris
91--I will agree with you that my use of absolutes are literary exaggerations.
2005-06-22 14:03:28
94.   Steve
As are ours. Nobody can break down the percentage of fault exactly -- that's a legal fiction. Jim Tracy is a contributing factor to losing. And becoming less of one as the team gets worse and we depend more on Repko. Who bats second.
2005-06-22 14:04:03
95.   Jon Weisman
58, 59 - Please don't print long excerpts from other websites in the comments. It's not fair to them. Just print a small snippet and/or a link.
2005-06-22 14:05:39
96.   brendan glynn
But why was Steve Garvey the MVP in 1974? Why not Jim Wynn?

Because Garvey led the league in the most important stat of all, RBI's(ask jeff kent)

That being said, I'm a Garvey fanatic so tread lightly. Wynn? that's stretching it. Morgan and a few others for sure.
I know Garvey is much maligned(lack of walks,arm) but six seasons of 200 hits and his total bases still make him a hell of a player. Maybe not HOF but still good to great.

2005-06-22 14:13:07
97.   Bob Timmermann
The White Sox do execute better than the Dodgers. Primarily because they have better players.

Teams can "find ways to win". But depending upon winning all of your games by one run has not proven to be repeatable year after year.

The Dodgers led the majors in 1-run wins last year with 32. This year they are 7-8.

2005-06-22 14:16:24
98.   Fearing Blue
Plaschke on one of the ESPN talking head shows just said that Gagne will come back as a starter instead of a reliever to reduce the strain on his arm.
2005-06-22 14:17:39
99.   Bob Timmermann
God bless you for taking a bullet for us on that one, FB.
2005-06-22 14:17:42
100.   brendan glynn
#98

.that's the dumbest thing I've ever read/heard.

was he laughed off the show?

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-06-22 14:19:37
101.   Langhorne
I wonder when the ChiSox bunt a runner over, and that player scores, how many times they would have scored multiple runs if they hadn't given away an out.
2005-06-22 14:19:57
102.   JT Dutch
#98

... Hah! I remember the Braves doing that with Steve Bedrosian in 1985 -- with predictable results.

2005-06-22 14:21:25
103.   the OZ
It's worth repeating that this man bats second:

Repko - .202 .298 .376

It's also worth noting that this man does NOT bat second, and has been stuck at 6th for at least some of the losing streak:

Choi (batting #2) in 2005, 113 ABs:

13 HR .327 .387 .726 for a 1.113 OPS

I make no claim of causation that the 2 hole makes Choi good, but it seems silly to stick Repko there in his place. Ever.

When Jim Tracy established the "13 At-Bat Rule" for lineup decision making yesterday, he forgot to follow his own advice:

Choi vs Williams: 0-13
Choi as a PH: 1-13.

So, Choi can sit against a RHP because he's 0-13 against said pitcher, but he can take a PH role when he's only 1-13 as PH?

It's not the losing that makes me want to try a new manager, but the lack of any apparent rational decision-making by our current model. He just seems lost and grasping at weird excuses for his decisions like a pudgy toddler eating Cheerios™ without silverware.

2005-06-22 14:22:12
104.   heato
I for one am quite satisfied that Depo has not made any moves thus far. He probably sees this team as so flawed that it is not worth mortgaging the future in an attempt to win this season. Dunn would be nice, but he had better be able to hit and then pitch a shutout inning or two in relief. With an anemic offense and a bullpen missing its closer, this team will not win the World Series. They might win the West, but that would not be anything to brag about this year. Some people have mentioned that the Dodgers have so many highly touted prospects that some need to be traded since they cannot all be protected on the 40 man roster. It looks like Depo plans to transfer some of them to the bullpen instead. I like the thought of Broxton, Orenduff, and Yhency in the bullpen next year. Yes, Depo does deserve much of the blame for the Dodgers' current situation (Erickson has not had any business being on the roster for two months), but at least he has not become desperate and traded for this year's Jeromy Burnitz.
2005-06-22 14:23:25
105.   molokai
I was there in 74 and I would have voted the Toy Cannon as the offensive MVP of the Dodgers.
Using retrosheet to help my memory the Toy Cannon had 32 homers along with 110 rbi's along with 110 walks along with 104 runs scored and a line of 271/387/497 from a center fielder in 1974. He didn't do much in the post season but the MVP is voted on before post season. Nothing against Steve Garvey as he also had an excellent season. That was an excellent team and should have won the 74 series.
2005-06-22 14:25:37
106.   Bob Timmermann
Last year, the White Sox had the second most 1-run wins in the AL with 28. They were 28-18 (Oakland had 33.)

The White Sox were 55-61 in games decided by 2 runs or more last year.

In 2005, the White Sox are 20-8 in 1-run games. And they are 29-14 in games decided by 2 runs or more. Rob Neyer pointed out the very surprising stat that the White Sox are 9-11 in games in which they score no more than 3 runs. The Yankees are 0-25 in games in which they've scored no more than three. They are the only team that hasn't one such a low-scoring game.

They were ahead of Tampa Bay 3-2 late and lost 5-3.

2005-06-22 14:27:35
107.   Steve
Did I mention that Alex Cora was 1 for 26 for his career when he batted against Woody Williams with the bases loaded last year? I just like that stat. Don't know why. Good stat though. Like it.
2005-06-22 14:29:50
108.   fanerman91
Well, 1 for 26 yields a higher batting avenage than 0 for 11....
2005-06-22 14:31:07
109.   Icaros
Cody Ross, come on, you'll pine for Repko after 10 games of Cody Ross. The guy is repeating AAA for the 3rd year. If you can't put up a line that dominates when your repeating your 3rd year of AAA you have no future playing in the big leagues other then as a 4th or 5th outfielder.

I'm certainly not looking at Ross as a savior or anything, but his minor league numbers are a lot better than Repko's. Repko has never hit more than 10 HRs in a single season while Ross has had seasons of 15, 19, 20, and 14. He already has 13 at Vegas this year in 219 ABs.

The main reason Ross has stumbled along the way has had to do with injury problems, not poor performance. He was Detroit's minor league player of the year a couple seasons back, but then had a serious knee injury. I think he at least deserves the same shot Repko has been given.

2005-06-22 14:31:24
110.   Langhorne
Actually, I wondered, depending on the results of his surgery, if Gagne might be able to start. Many pitchers seem to come back stronger after TJ surgery. Of course, that wasn't the case after Gagne's first operation and Plaschke seems to be saying that Gagne won't or shouldn't throw as hard as he has as a closer. Which means that he will have a fastball in the high eighties along with his other pitches. I don't know how much strain the curve ball puts on Gagne's arm but if that has to be messed with we're looking at a very average pitcher. In any case, it's foolish to speculate about it now, which is what I'm doing so I've met my goal of being foolish at least once a day which is one of my hobbies along with writing run-on sentences.
2005-06-22 14:32:09
111.   Steve
.038 if I remember right. Somewhere around Izturis's OPS this month.
2005-06-22 14:32:20
112.   the OZ
That's a great stat, Steve, and I remember your mentions of it. Sadly, I'm sure you will have Probable Cause to use it again soon.

I'd like to see you post a "Brief" laying out your evidence for a Prima Facie case against JT as the Dodgers' Manager, either here or at FJT.

2005-06-22 14:34:04
113.   untitled instrumental demo
"I had a lot of respect for Lasorda when I was a kid and he was running the show. Having learned more about him, I find him a gasbag, a vacant cheerleader, and a semi-competent manager who earned the reputation of doing the least with the most in baseball."

Does anyone know the truth about Lasorda and his son. I've heard several times that he doesn't have much to do with him because he's gay...That's pretty damning, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh...and I still think DePo should get Bobby V...if just for a nice change in the Dodger culture. What the hell, right?

2005-06-22 14:34:48
114.   the OZ
Hmmm, maybe we need to stage a Mock Trial...Steve can prosecute. Who wants to be JT's defense team?
2005-06-22 14:35:54
115.   fanerman91
114,
Might as well hold it on the day of the mock game, right?
2005-06-22 14:37:24
116.   Icaros
Does anyone know the truth about Lasorda and his son. I've heard several times that he doesn't have much to do with him because he's gay...

Didn't his son die a few years ago?

2005-06-22 14:37:26
117.   Bob Timmermann
113,
Um, Lasorda's son passed away several years ago.

But I think his attitude toward his son is pretty much his own business.

2005-06-22 14:38:29
118.   Jon Weisman
98, 100, 102 - I assume John Smoltz is the inspiration for this.
2005-06-22 14:40:10
119.   Jon Weisman
103 - Cheerios seems to always work well in discussions of the Dodgers.
2005-06-22 14:42:37
120.   Icaros
How can we work Honey Nut Cheerios into the discussion?
2005-06-22 14:44:20
121.   fanerman91
I smell something that vaguely smells like Honey Nut Cheerios right now, at the office.
2005-06-22 14:44:50
122.   Bob Timmermann
Steve Finley has been put on the DL by the Angels, but Curtis Pride is replacing him.

No word on Cabrera, but if he's out, this weekend could be a battle of the battling Izturises.

2005-06-22 14:46:43
123.   Suffering Bruin
113 - Lasorda loved his son deeply which made his reaction to his death all the more incongruous. It was very clear Lasorda's son was gay and died of AIDS, it was very clear that Tommy denied as much and it was also painfully clear that father and son loved each other deeply.

Peter Richmond wrote one of the best sports articles I've ever read for GQ many years back. I still wince at how badly I misread it the first time through. It's a terrific article.

2005-06-22 14:47:16
124.   Steve
114 -- boy, I'll tell you, there used to be a dark, dark day not very long ago where FJT was not nearly as popular as it seems to now be. I wandered in the dark for many moons.
2005-06-22 14:49:46
125.   Steve
battling Izturises

What are you going to do, bite me to death?

2005-06-22 14:51:22
126.   Vishal
if cesar's slump continues much longer, by the end of the angels series we may be wishing we can swap izturises with them.
2005-06-22 14:53:24
127.   Bob Timmermann
Two Izturises, two Molinas.

It will be like an ark out there in Anaheim this weekend.

The world could be destroyed by flood, but slow moving catchers and slap-hitting shortstops will survive!

2005-06-22 14:55:36
128.   molokai
Yeah, Cody Ross should get a shot and maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle like we did with A Perez. But then reality will settle in and much like Perez you'll have a AAAA player in the major leagues. Wouldn't it make much more sense to actually get a major league corner outfielder who can hit. The corner outfielder is the position where you HAVE to get some serious offensive production from. Isn't that the reason we gave away Dave Roberts?
I've got no problems with AAAA players as long as they are utility players in the big leagues. When your starting them on a regular basis then I have problems.
2005-06-22 14:58:53
129.   Steve
Can't we just agree to DFA Erickson and bring up Ross? Then everyone is happy. We get another crappy outfielder to go along with the barbarian hordes of them that line our bench, and Erickson is then carved up and sacrificed to them. Good. No?
2005-06-22 14:59:15
130.   Icaros
128 - Who do you want then? You said you'd rather get Randa than Dunn.
2005-06-22 15:02:52
131.   Langhorne
We do not need any more minor leaguers on this team.

We do not need to create any more holes than we have. Keep Izturis unless someone offers us the '27 Yankees in return. Trade for a major league left fielder and major league pitching help if we can find it.

2005-06-22 15:03:31
132.   molokai
It is not like Finley or Cabrerra were hitting a lick anyway. Still the Angels are able to knock off Texas and they should have no problem with us. Figgins will outpeform Finley and they will wonder why they signed him. If we don't win one of the next two games we could have one heck of a losing streak going by the time we get home. We can't even put together a starting eight, having to use a DH will prove to be embarrassing. I think I'm getting more and more angry as the day progresses. Hopefully by Sunday I'll have given up, two weeks later then Depo did.
2005-06-22 15:04:50
133.   untitled instrumental demo
"113 - Lasorda loved his son deeply which made his reaction to his death all the more incongruous. It was very clear Lasorda's son was gay and died of AIDS, it was very clear that Tommy denied as much and it was also painfully clear that father and son loved each other deeply."

Wow...that IS well written. It also seems like it would be more accurate than some of the hateful stuff I've read about Tommy...they always seemed like personal attacks and knee-jerk responses. I'm sorry now that I mentioned it...I don't usually care about public figures' personal lives.

2005-06-22 15:04:57
134.   Marty
The "Yard Work" boys on little Cesar making the all-star team:

Unfortunately, it's looking like soft-hitting Dodgers shortstop Cesar Izturis will win the vote, which means on July 12, during the pre-game introductions, we'll be watching the debut of the Cesar Izturis "I'm Only Here Because One Guy Ripped His Groin Apart and Another Guy Fell Down Carrying Deer Meat" Face.

2005-06-22 15:05:35
135.   molokai
130-Didn't say I'd rather get Dunn then Randa just that Randa would also fill a need. I love Dunn just don't think he's going to be traded. Once the Red's dumped the manager I think it was clear that Dunn will remain since he was the one having the problem with Miley.
2005-06-22 15:13:08
136.   Sushirabbit
Is it possible some of these guys haven't been sent back down because they are up for a trade? Would it matter if they were in Vegas, or lower, when traded? I can't for the life of me figure out why we have done some sending down and calling up. I'm addicted to this place. I've been telling myself all day that I have to sleep tonight... we'll see if that holds up. Also, are we on a pace to break the record of different line-ups in a season? Seems like someone brought that up before...
but my mind is a tabula razor. :-)
2005-06-22 15:14:17
137.   molokai
On the bright side at least were not the Yankee's who got beat at home by the Devil Rays. Of course that might be similar to getting swept by the Royals on the road but I'm not sure what the similarity percentage is on that.
Ya know I'm a Clipper fan. I should be able to deal with this and get back to doing something productive instead of wasting everyone's time here.
2005-06-22 15:15:03
138.   Bob Timmermann
Molokai,
Step away from the window.
Or you may want to vent more.

We're here for you.

2005-06-22 15:17:56
139.   Icaros
135 - Miley may have been part of the problem, but it sounds like the Reds might not want to pay Dunn his $10 million next season, and they know they'll probably lose him to free agency after that. If he bats 7th in their lineup, maybe they don't think he's as great as we do. He's only hitting in the .240s and doesn't have a lot of RBI.

But go ahead and throw Randa into the deal. I don't care. I'll add Repko in return.

2005-06-22 15:18:49
140.   fanerman91
If DePo really can pull that deal... that would make my day.
2005-06-22 15:20:09
141.   Midwest Blue
120 - "Doctors find Honey Nut Cheerios in Bako's knee."

I thoroughly apologize for the previous instance of funereal humor. The Dodgers bring out the worst in me.

2005-06-22 15:27:24
142.   Fearing Blue
Proposed pitching staff for 2006:

#1 Starter: PTBNL
#2 Starter: Brad Penny
#3 Starter: Derek Lowe
#4 Starter: Odalis Perez
#5 Starter: DJ Houlton

Closer: Yhency Brazoban
Setup Man: Jonathan Broxton
7th Inning Guy: Duaner Sanchez
6th Inning Guy: Franquelis Osoria
LOOGY: Hong-chih Kuo
Swing Man #1: Wilson Alvarez

Of this group, Kuo is probably the least likely to be on our 25-man roster next year. Nonetheless, I really like him because he a) is already 24 years old, b) has fought back through 2 TJ surgeries, c) is dominating in Vero Beach as a reliever (37 Ks in 23 IP), and d) is left-handed.

2005-06-22 15:33:48
143.   natepurcell
i dunno if this has been brought up but it looks like choi will participate in the homerun derby at the all star game.

how about that.

PS: i want to trade for oswalt :)

2005-06-22 15:35:12
144.   Midwest Blue
Embarrassing question: What's a LOOGY?
2005-06-22 15:39:16
145.   Steve
You have to be careful here:

LOOGY (All caps) = Left-handed One Out GuY

loogy (no caps) = Scott Erickson

2005-06-22 15:39:29
146.   the OZ
LOOGY, n. def: Lefty One Out GuY.

Also see Wunsch, Kelly.

2005-06-22 15:45:24
147.   natepurcell
fearing blue, this is my proposed 2006 team thing

*trade navarro, orenduff, loney for roy oswalt. sign oswalt to a 4 yr 44 mil contract that takes affect after his 2006 season. 2006 salary=11mil
*sign brian giles to a 2yr 17 mil deal.
*resign bradley to a 3 yr 21 mil deal

SP
oswalt- 11 mil
penny- 4.5
lowe- 9
odalis-7.25
houlton-300k

lineup:
ss izzy- 3.1
3b AP/aybar- 300k
rf drew- 11 mil
2b kent- 9 mil
lf giles- 8.5 mil
cf bradley- 5mil
1b choi- 500k
C navarro- 300k

gagne- 10 mil

total: 80mil
eh eh eh?

2005-06-22 15:46:30
148.   natepurcell
wait i messed up. how can navarro be in our lineup of he is traded? who knows... call up martin then. his OBP is .450 in AA lol.
2005-06-22 15:48:36
149.   Bob Timmermann
I'm watching the "Naked Gun". Just noticed from the credits that the guy playing the Angels catcher in the game is Robert Fick's older brother.

We now resume regular programming.

2005-06-22 15:49:58
150.   Icaros
I heard on the radio last night that Robert Fick was a child actor in a bunch of 80s sitcoms.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-06-22 15:51:14
151.   Icaros
147 - What did you do with Jason Phillips?
2005-06-22 15:51:20
152.   Dodgerkid
nate we still have Jason Phillips making less than a million. So our catching problems are solved. I think that's a good lineup.
2005-06-22 15:54:19
153.   Steve
150 -- IMDB is not aware of this fact.
2005-06-22 15:55:52
154.   Icaros
I also don't see Loney as having any trade value at this point. I'm sure you'd have to part with Guzman or LaRoche to get Ozwalt.
2005-06-22 15:55:56
155.   molokai
# 142
How can Kuo possibly develop if your going to make him a LOOGY at age 25. He hasn't pitched in 3 years, this guy needs innings and lots of them. 3 years ago he had the best arm in our system. If he has come back healthy from the multiple surgeries the last thing I want is for him to become a LOOGY.
Your giving DJ Houlton a rotation spot based on 3 starts? Most rule 5 picks go back to the minors for more seasoning after they have spent the required season in the majors. Better find a replacment for your # 4 pitcher since we know that OP won't stay healthy enough to claim a spot for his own.
2005-06-22 15:56:17
156.   natepurcell
phillips plays the role of seasoned veteran backup to our catcher of the future.

its true, navarros OBP= 400+
martins OBP= close to .450

both are better than phillips and both are also way better defensively.

2005-06-22 15:56:57
157.   Icaros
153 - Charley Steiner wouldn't lie to me. Maybe his full name is Ficklestein, or something.
2005-06-22 15:59:04
158.   natepurcell
re 154

i put loney because astros have a HUGE need for a 1b with bagwells shoulder dying. i suppose, they could ask for guzman and switch him to 1b. but loneys putting up a 277 BA with a 366 OBP as a 21 yr old in AA. those are pretty good numbers.

if they want guzman, i would include him but take out navarro.

guzman and orenduff for oswalt or loney, navarro and orenduff.

2005-06-22 15:59:58
159.   molokai
If Oswalt is going to be traded it will create a frenzy and Icaros is right that we would have to give up multiple A prospects for him as the competition for his services would be intense.
I don't see it happening, once Clemens leaves they would have a zero rotation if they dealt Oswalt.
2005-06-22 16:01:15
160.   Howard Fox
what's wrong with phillips defensively?? he's already thrown out 2 runners this year...what do you expect?

and everytime the runner is safe, jason throws back his head as if he is so surprised the runner beat the throw....

actually, he probably shouldn't have bothered to make the throw half the time with the jump the pitchers have been allowing...who works with them on that?

2005-06-22 16:02:08
161.   natepurcell
what im trying to say is that.. dont trade broxton, billingsley, martin and laroche basically.
2005-06-22 16:02:41
162.   Steve
His brother Charles has been a bit player in a bunch of baseball movies.
2005-06-22 16:02:49
163.   Bob Timmermann
Since Robert Fick's older brother has some credits, it's not that hard to believe that Robert made some appearances on TV too. He might not have gotten a credit. The IMDB won't put you in if you're not in the named credits or you one of those people who can pick out uncredited people.
2005-06-22 16:05:33
164.   Icaros
.277/.366 is okay, but a .404 SLG is not acceptable for a 1B, no matter his age. Loney has no value.

You'd probably have to give Guzman and leave Navarro in as well.

2005-06-22 16:05:41
165.   Steve
I was an extra in a failed Dick Butkus pilot once. Very exciting.
2005-06-22 16:05:53
166.   Jon Weisman
I took it upon myself to put myself into the IMDB. But since that time, things have been added under my name by others.
2005-06-22 16:05:58
167.   Bob Timmermann
On Padres.com, there is an interview with Mark Loretta where he says that he was a child actor.
2005-06-22 16:08:33
168.   the OZ
"Allow myself to introduce...myself..."
2005-06-22 16:09:57
169.   Icaros
I was an extra in the Odd Couple II. I played a minor league baseball player.

Our uniforms were cool, exact replicas of the Detroit Tigers roadwear, except it said Comets instead of Tigers.

Never saw the movie, but I'm sure I can't be seen.

2005-06-22 16:10:54
170.   Borchard504
Tonite ESPN teased 'Sportscenter' at the start of the 6 PM show, with the "who's to blame" angle on the Gagne injury. Jeff Brantley then came on a little later offering a strong opinion that Dodger staff, (read, Mgr,Coach,Front Office) rushed him back from the knee injurty way too early in late March, appealing to Gagne's competitive spirit, which then led directly to the ligament damage. Baseball Tonight should be interesting as they expand on this...
2005-06-22 16:11:00
171.   Icaros
I really like the name Chuck Fick, by the way.
2005-06-22 16:11:14
172.   natepurcell
power is usually the last tool to develop in a hitter. ive listened/watch as much suns games as i can, and the announcer continously praise loney and says he hits the ball hard every time. the thing is, plenty of scouts have projected loney to hit with power. if he becomes a casey kotchman, that still has a lot of trade value.

if loney can continue to hit line drives and have a high OBP, the power will eventually come i think.

this puts into perspective what laroche doing as totally absurd in the power department. he isnt suppose to hit this many homeruns so early in his career.

2005-06-22 16:14:39
173.   the OZ
I can't help but notice that the "memorable quote" from Jon's most recent IMDB-credited project includes an eel.
2005-06-22 16:16:21
174.   Icaros
I'll believe Loney's power potential when he starts to actually hit for power.

As it is, I'm not impressed by an OBP under .400, especially when all he hits are singles. Loney needs to at least put up numbers like Russell Martin for me to get excited about him.

2005-06-22 16:20:14
175.   Howard Fox
Russ Martin? Wasn't he the sidekick for Robert Conrad on Wild Wild West??
2005-06-22 16:20:18
176.   Bob Timmermann
If Loney starts hitting homers, then he doesn't have potential, he has power.

If he holds his bat up at a very high point hanging over a ledge, his bat will have a lot of potential energy.

2005-06-22 16:21:08
177.   Icaros
Before my time. I only know the Wild Wild West as a lame hip-hop dance in the late 80s/early 90s.
2005-06-22 16:22:15
178.   Icaros
Newton and I agree with Bob.
2005-06-22 16:22:23
179.   Howard Fox
and if Loney stays to himself, is he the Lone Loney?
2005-06-22 16:24:36
180.   molokai
#172
Have to agree. I've not given up on Loney and after a slow start he is doing much better. Still would not be acceptable to the Astro's other then as a throw in when your talking Oswalt. If Oswalt is going to be dealt the Angels have everything the Astro's need.
1st base - Kotchman
Catcher - Mathis
Pitcher - Santana
Infield - Kendrick/Wood/Aybar/Callapso
We could never match the Angels if they decided to make a bid because Kotchman/Mathis/Santana are all ready to contribute right now.
2005-06-22 16:25:10
181.   Jon Weisman
Apparently few remember my Dr. Miguelito Loveless reference on this site.
2005-06-22 16:27:28
182.   Howard Fox
Jon, they aren't old enough...or they have a "short" memory
2005-06-22 16:29:33
183.   Icaros
I guess I'm just being hard on Loney because he reminds me of Repko, a first-round "toolsy" pick who was supposed to develop power and never did. Hopefully Loney will turn out different.

Can't they just draft guys who already have power?

2005-06-22 16:33:42
184.   Bob Timmermann
Sean Burroughs was supposed to develop a lot of power.

They're still waiting in San Diego.

And waiting.

And waiting.

And waiting.

And waiting.

Baseball Prospectus always made Sean Burroughs out to be the second coming of Mike Schmidt, which he isn't going to be.

2005-06-22 16:35:05
185.   Howard Fox
IMHO, Repko has potential, alot of it, maybe a bigger upside than Werth, if he gets good coaching and training in the fundamentals.

However, I have my doubts about the coaching and trainers the Dodgers employ up and down the system. Too many injuries, too many misdiagnoses or underestimations of extent of injuries, too many "bonehead" plays afield, too many times players display poor fundamentals. Just my opinion, of course, but at least I am consistent in my opinion.

2005-06-22 16:35:21
186.   natepurcell
loney was considered a polished bat coming out of HS and wasnt toosly like repko.

the only resemblance is that both were dodger first round picks and both of their careers have been hampered by injuries.

2005-06-22 16:37:16
187.   Howard Fox
I have been a fan of Loney since a couple of year ago seeing him in spring training. He has the "look" to me of a ballplayer.
2005-06-22 16:42:59
188.   Icaros
How was Loney a polished bat out of HS when he has never hit for power?

Maybe they should have kept him pitching.

Howard,

I share your lack of faith in the Dodgers training/coaching system. I've been watching idiotic baserunning for decades now it seems.

Can't agree with your Repko assesment, however. Werth has shown more power throughout his minor league career, and I think, at age 24, Repko is bit old to be taught much of anything.

2005-06-22 16:43:50
189.   Icaros
187 - Repko and Robles both looked like ballplayers this spring as well.
2005-06-22 16:44:41
190.   FirstMohican
Players with over...
TM 200AB 150AB 80IP 50IP 30IP 200AB+80IP 150AB+30IP
LA 3 6 2 3 8 5 14
AZ 6 7 4 5 7 10 14
SF 4 8 1 4 6 5 14
SD 4 9 3 5 11 7 20
CO 3 7 3 5 7 6 14
2005-06-22 16:45:47
191.   Howard Fox
Werth showed power last year when batting in from of Green, Beltre and Bradley. I would have gotten good pitches to hit in front of them.
2005-06-22 16:45:54
192.   molokai
# 184 BP is wrong alot but they only remind us of when they are right. Josh Phelps on the cover of the 2003 BP is a testimoney to how wrong they can be.

Loney had power in high school. Most scouts thought he'd get drafted as a pitcher and were surprised when the Dodgers drafted him as a 1st baseman. After his 1st taste of minor league ball everyone thought the Dodgers had made a great pick. Several years later maybe the scouts were right and the Dodgers were wrong. He is supposed to be one hell of a fielder. I am only optimistic because he's young and he has hit much better since a very slow start. He sure does walk alot but as you said I'd rather he hit the ball harder alot.
Does anyone here actually see Jacksonville play?

2005-06-22 16:46:45
193.   Icaros
Maybe the Dodgers should try this:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/3710962

2005-06-22 16:47:30
194.   Howard Fox
the only time I remember seeing Jacksonville play was when they lost in the NCAA finals to UCLA
2005-06-22 16:48:31
195.   natepurcell
polished doesnt mean power.

for example, our 4th round pick this year joshbell is a raw bat but his biggest tool is his power.

polished means, he already has a smooth stroke, good strikezone judgement and consistently hits the ball hard.

and thats what he was coming out of HS and thats what he showed in rookie ball with a 371/457/624 line.

2005-06-22 16:51:00
196.   natepurcell
re 192

ive seen jacksonville play a lot.

also, scouts still love him. even though he was struggling in the souther league last year, i read a lot of press on how scouts still loved his swing and makeup. BA obviously still likes him when they ranked him in the top 60 prospects in baseball.. ahead of andy laroche. im not saying they never make mistakes, but a lot of scouts still like loney.

2005-06-22 16:51:03
197.   Icaros
Werth showed power last year when batting in from of Green, Beltre and Bradley.

Who one bats in front of doesn't matter, but I'm referring to the fact that Werth has hit for power throughout his minor-league career as well, something Loney and Repko have never done.

I would have gotten good pitches to hit in front of them.

You still would have had to hit them. Repko has been batting in front of Drew, Kent, and Bradley (just as good, if not better) most of the season and done little.

2005-06-22 16:51:05
198.   Howard Fox
polished doesn't mean power...it doesn't mean shinola either...wait...different movie...sorry....
2005-06-22 16:52:18
199.   Howard Fox
I didn't say I would hit them, hell, I would be lucky to see them, I just said I would have gotten good pitches to hit in from of them.
2005-06-22 16:53:28
200.   Steve
All this angst about Repko, and no one has brought up his great situational hitting.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-06-22 16:54:14
201.   molokai
I think Repko will make a very useful 4th/5th outfielder. That has value but he shouldn't be starting against the Jake Peavy's of the world.
2005-06-22 16:54:33
202.   Icaros
He sure does walk alot but as you said I'd rather he hit the ball harder alot.

He doesn't walk that much if his OBP is only .366 this year and .349 in his previous seasons.

2005-06-22 16:54:44
203.   Howard Fox
re: 200 - that is the funniest thing I have read in a while, situational hitting? not exactly something in the book "Dodger Way to Play Baseball"
2005-06-22 16:56:06
204.   natepurcell
actually, werth never showed much power throughout his minor league career until his 3rd try at AA in the southern league at age 22. Then, he slugged .499 in 369 ABs with 18 homeruns. But because of his frame, scouts projected power from him. they were right. he slugged 18 homeruns in like 200 ABs last season.

but the elbow injury and the wrist injury have zapped his power this year. Nothing he can do about it.

2005-06-22 16:57:32
205.   Icaros
There have been many times where the situation has called for a hit of any sort and Repko hasn't provided it, so I'd like some clarification from JT as to what that term actually means.
2005-06-22 16:57:46
206.   Howard Fox
well at least Werth is recovering well from the great trainers we have, he should be ready for his TJ surgery soon
2005-06-22 16:58:55
207.   Howard Fox
in the Dodger handbook, situational hitting is defined as "I'm up now? How did I get myself into this situation?"
2005-06-22 16:59:02
208.   molokai
195-That rookie line is what got all of us drooling. He set the bar to high. Nate do you live in Florida or do you see them play road games? I'm just asking because I'm thinking of making a trip to see them play since this may be the greatest collection of Dodger prospect talent we may ever have in one place.
2005-06-22 16:59:12
209.   ddger
Does anyone know why we need 12 pitchers when Erickson is only used on blowouts now and Thompson hasn't been used in over 10 days. Is it to save money? We could use extra player or 2 who can contribute in a meaningful game. Also, who teaches the dodgers fundamentals such as bunting, moving runners over, baserunning. It seems that this year's team is one of the worst.
2005-06-22 17:00:12
210.   Icaros
204 - Well good, maybe Loney can develop into the next Jayson Werth (laugh).
2005-06-22 17:00:13
211.   Howard Fox
re: 209 - this year's team is tied for worst with Tracy's other teams
2005-06-22 17:02:07
212.   Steve
When the pro-bunters AND the anti-bunters are lined up against you, it's time to go back to Ohio.
2005-06-22 17:02:37
213.   natepurcell
molokai

well loney also dazzled fans in ST of 2004 and hit very well in the AFL this past year as well.

actually, i have never seen a game live, since i live in orange county. But i do watch the online live stream that they provide of every jax suns home game. this is the link: http://www.southernguide.tv/

and yes, you should take a trip to see them. that would be really fun i would think. and yess, having 6-7 top 100 propsects in all of baseball is really a sight to see.

2005-06-22 17:02:38
214.   Howard Fox
re: 212 - and root for who? the Reds?
2005-06-22 17:05:12
215.   Steve
No. Not root for the Reds. Manage the Reds.
2005-06-22 17:07:26
216.   Howard Fox
better yet, see the movie Reds
2005-06-22 17:07:44
217.   molokai
# 202
He's walked 37 times in 250 ab's, good for around 8th in the league. I think if your in the top 10 alot is okay to use.
2005-06-22 17:13:12
218.   molokai
Yes, I remember ST 2004. Even had some fans wanting him to be our starting 1st baseman. Seems so long ago. Kind of like Jason Werth's power.
2005-06-22 17:15:46
219.   Fearing Blue
#155: I wouldn't use Kuo as a strict LOOGY in the traditional sense. I would throw him in with Duaner Sanchez and Franquelis Osoria and mix things up. It's unclear at this point whether the Dodgers are targetting Kuo for starting or relief, but if it's relief, I think he could have an impact in 2006.
2005-06-22 17:15:59
220.   Howard Fox
Yeah, I could have had power like that.

If only I was taller, more coordinated, faster, stronger, and not Jewish.

2005-06-22 17:17:22
221.   GoBears
220: Hey, Shawn Green resembles that remark.

To say nothing of Hank Greenberg.

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