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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
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6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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"No question, the biggest lesson I've learned so far is the importance of character in building a winning baseball team," McCourt repeated.
Does this mean it will be more of a factor in personnel decisions?
"No question," he said.
No matter what sort of cool numbers are spit from Paul DePodesta's computer?
"I think Paul, for some of the reasons I experienced, now sees things in a different light," said McCourt.
- Bill Plaschke in the Times
* * *
It's good to know that one bad week the entire season means that Milton Bradley has inadequate character to wear a Dodger uniform.
That Jeff Kent, the gritty, let's-just-win ballplayer publicly accused at worst by Bradley not of racism, but of insensitivity, who even merited T.J. Simers' nearly inexistent seal of approval, has inadequate character.
That J.D. Drew, a God-fearing man who happens to have a quiet side, has inadequate character.
That because Bradley got mad, Ricky Ledee has inadequate character.
That because Bradley got mad, Jason Phillips has inadequate character.
That the problem of Jose Valentin, the team's cheerleader, is inadequate character. Not whether he has any talent left. Clearly, Paul DePodesta signed Valentin only for those remarkable 2004 stats he posted.
That Jason Repko, the former first-round pick who struggled for years to make the bigs but never gave up even when others did, has inadequate character.
That Mike Edwards, who worked his way from the ground floor to make it to the show, has inadequate character.
That Kelly Wunsch, the book-reading, crossword-puzzle-filling, pitch-every-day reliever, has inadequate character.
And so on ...
But Frank McCourt, who has spent nearly every single day of his ownership promoting his family while ignoring or scapegoating their shortcomings, and Plaschke, who can't seem to resist making smarmy, undignified remarks against those who don't fit his agenda (but who tolerate his insults stoically), they're qualified to make judgments on character. They've got it all figured out.
Problems solved?
Good to know.
Update: To clarify, my point is not to say that good character or good clubhouse atmosphere isn't worth striving for. If this article had just been about Bradley, I wouldn't have felt compelled to comment on it. I just don't understand how the Bradley incident gets to be used as evidence that, as Plaschke writes, that character was underestimated in building this team.
Update 2: The press notes are loaded every day with notices of Dodgers serving the community. Oscar Robles sacrificed part of his baseball career to help his family in a time of need. But still, the Dodgers underestimate character.
Is self-sacrifice not part of what the Dodger uniform was supposed to stand for? Or do Robles' actions indicate weakness? After all, Plaschke has regularly lamented the departure of Guillermo Mota, who pleaded no contest to reckless driving after a DUI arrest. But what a setup man he was.
I sense I'm overreacting to Plaschke's column today - but I just feel the counterpoints need to be made. Certainly, the Dodgers have made some mistakes in the past year. But let's keep it in perspective.
Update 3: Thanks to reader Brian Greene for providing these excerpts from a Plashcke column of April 5, 2004.
A team suffering from serious ownership credibility can show that at least the new general manager is trying. Milton Bradley is the Dodgers' best overall hitter. Right now. Period. ... the Indians are thrilled to rid themselves of a guy they had essentially thrown off the team last week for bad behavior. To which I reply with two words: Gary Sheffield. One of the best pure hitters to sit in the Dodger dugout in many years, he was traded for being a miscreant, a move that was originally applauded in this space until the ensuing losing taught me better.
The idea of clubhouse chemistry having evaporated after 15 years of feel-good failures, it is time to face the nasty truth. The Dodgers need some jerks who can play... One thing Bradley hasn't done is fight with his teammates... The Dodgers are acquiring Bradley not for his leadership, but his knocks... "We have looked closely at Milton, and we think he will be fine in the clubhouse," DePodesta said."
mark shapiro - he of cleveland indians fame,not ESPN executive - yesterdayon ESPN radio...
and I'm paraphrasing here, but the essence is here...
'we (he/Wedge) believe that putting people together who believe in playing the game the right way, and respecting the game, does make a difference on our clubhouse and ultimately the performance of the team.'
This team is making the Bradley situation worse than it is, and if we try to deal him, we will look so desperate that we might be lucky to get something valuable
anyway, it was the combined decision to purchase the ondemand package and choosing to root for milton bradley that really brought me back to this team. i agree with jon that it is insensitivity, not necessarily racism, that milton has charged kent with (i must confess, i have not read all the reports, and obviously don't know if milton used the "r" word). i am a believer in chemistry, but i agree with a recent poster that it would be a shame to see the milton bradley success story play out in another city.
don't get me wrong; i definitely root for the name on the front of the jersey, but sometimes it helps to have a name on the back of the jersey to root for too. figuratively speaking, of course.
I'm not going to read Plaschke's nonsense, but I have a pretty good idea of what it says. In my opinion, this is all just a huge overreaction to a bad season, and another excuse for the media to pile on DePo. I'm 99% positive if the team were winning the Bradley/Kent incident probably wouldn't have happened at all, and most certainly wouldn't be the story it currently is.
Incidentally, I find it interesting that all the articles I've seen have been "Bradley needs to go". Why not "Kent needs to go"? I don't think either of them should go, I'm just saying.
Jon, I'm not sure I follow this piece. It seems to me you're reading too much into McCourt's statement. He didn't say the team was losing because of character. All he said was that it was something he would take into consideration in the future.
I just thought the article was unfairly insulting to the entire team.
Its obvious DePo and Tracy dont get along. DePo gives Tracy players, and then Tracy wont play them. DePo's players arent a scrappy, bunt, SB's type of team. Yet Tracy continues to play them like that. There's one disconnect.
Then from the article it appears McCourt doesnt have DePo's back when it comes to player acquisition.
This situation is getting worse. I knew something was up when Tracy wasnt fired earlier in the year for all his mess ups.
Its obviously Frank McCourt's fault. DePo's hands are truely tied.
*
One thing I really don't get is all the fuss about this should have been handled privately. Sure, Bradley could have measured his comments to the press more, but the team is closely covered by skilled reporters -- not everything can just be kept in the clubhouse. And, maybe some consider this a character defect, but I just think there's an unrealistic standard at work here. It's not possible to always hold your tongue; sometimes people just can't keep from saying something that's on their mind. Even when they know they shouldn't. It just happens. Deal with it.
*
Man, Plaschke still drives me nuts. "Maybe they would also be a jillion games under .500, but at least they wouldn't be imploding." Um, right.
Finally, I think the piece has a very odd tone to it. McCourt's answers to what Plaschke describes as his question are often sort of glancing or offpoint. I'm sure this is part due to the fact that McCourt would not comment directly on Bradley or Kent, but it means that much of the article consists of Plaschke inferring McCourt's views from vague or glancing statements. Given Plaschke's biases, that makes the piece a pretty problematic vehicle for figuring out what McCourt really thinks. (For example, does he really agree that Bradley trivialized Jackie Robinson? The juxtaposition of Plaschke's "question" and McCourt's "no racism in the clubhouse" "answer" suggests he does, but the caveat re no direct comments on Bradley suggests he wouldn't have expressed a view.)
DePo still has has 3 years left on that contract. We'll see how it goes...
I for one want Milton to stay. I really do think he's more to "blame" for all this uproar in the press than anyone else, but it's not that big an issue to me. It's certainly not as important as the fact that he looks to be as fragile as Drew.
WWSH
This guy has a career as professional sportswriter?
The article was long on hyperbole and short on any attempt at objectivity... my guess is that McCourt is quoted grossly out of context.
Does anybody really believe that following is paraphrase of a Plaschke question followed by a quotable answer:
No matter what sort of cool numbers are spit from Paul DePodesta's computer?
"I think Paul, for some of the reasons I experienced, now sees things in a different light," said McCourt.
What an idiot...
Tracy gets to opt out of his contract, take more money to go home to Cincy and be close to his family, and leave LA with his head up as a martyr.
Depo gets what he wants, without a big messy confrontation. Then he can hire who he wants, be it Jerry Royster or...?
WWSH
Was anyone interested in the "character" issue until Bradley blew up?
Most fans were just disappointed that the team was playing poorly.
Were we all in love with the winning personality of Shawn Green? Didn't we like Adrian Beltre because he hit 48 home runs? We liked Steve Finley because he hit a home run to beat the Giants. We liked Jose Lima because he won a playoff game. We liked Eric Gagne because he got lots of saves and struck out a lot of people.
So if Bradley had been jettisoned at the end of the 2004 season and the Dodgers had Steve Finley batting .220 all year, we'd all be happier?
Really?
Really?
What sort of thinking is that?
Did you know that "Lo Duca" is Italian for "epitome of all that is right" and Bradley is an English word meaning "evil man who must be exiled"?
When Leo Durocher talked about nice guys being in seventh place (he didn't say last), he was managing the Dodgers at the time.
There was just nothing redeeming or informative in the article. The only use I can see for it is Plaschke stroking his own ego; that, or as toilet paper to anybody else.
Today... wow. I've read frequently the hate spewed out against plaschke. Living in the NYC area now, I don't read the LA Times often, so I didn't pay much attention. I read today's article. I'm not sure I've read such a biased, unfair article in mainstream media before. And that comes from someone exposed to the NY Post and Daily News every day. This makes them look like wallflowers. What a poor article.
A couple of comments. First, Jon - agree with your assessment, that this is an insult to the team in general. Essentially written to make it look like the whole team is without character.
Second, I'm surprised that McCourt, who blames Bradley for making his issues public in the media, has essentially done the same thing with DePo. Not sure if this was just Plaschke's creative editing, or if McCourt really meant it to come across this way, but boy, he looks like he just made DePo the ultimate fallguy for all of this. Sad.
The person McCourt needs to fire is his son or whomever it was in his family he hired to do PR for the team. Sad, sad, sad. And poor, poor, poor form for any journalist to spit out this kind of article. I find al franken and rush limbaugh to both be more fair of their assessments and less insidious in how the portray things as this thing.
Good thing Plaschke isn't a political writer...
I would resign Immediatly.
Talk about bad Character!
What he was saying was Bradley, he's such a character, he cracks me up!
Steve Henson in the March 30, 2005 L.A. Times:
Jeff Kent planted the seed, mentioning to Milton Bradley that a players-only meeting might be beneficial. Bradley made it happen, closing the clubhouse doors Tuesday and speaking about leadership, chemistry and breaking spring training with a unified purpose.
The Dodgers have so many new players that Bradley, in his second year, is almost an elder statesman. Among regulars, only shortstop Cesar Izturis has been with the team longer.
"Sometimes you can sense something in the air," Bradley said. "We've had a quiet clubhouse. That's OK. Every team has its own identity. But it seemed to Jeff and I that we all needed to make sure we were on the same page before we went to Los Angeles."
Jayson Werth, who like Bradley is in his second season with the team, spoke next. Then Eric Gagne, the senior Dodger, had something to say. Finally, Kent stepped forward and talked about what he believes is necessary to win.
"It's important for us to communicate with one another, for anybody to feel comfortable talking if they have something to say," Bradley said. "We made it clear to younger and newer guys that anybody can say anything. Don't be shy."
It's telling that TJ Simers has written about this issue with more class than Plaschke, and Simer's whole shtick is to have no class.
Another point: McCourt is drawing praise because he gave Plaschke the interview and agreed with him. That's all.
What an awful column. What a terrible disservice to anyone interested in the Dodgers.
To borrow from Mudhoney - "It's all overblown."
Last year's team was fun and had character and we wanted to root for them.
Bradley has horrible character flaws that will force the Dodgers to get rid of him.
Uh, wasn't Bradley part of last year's team, too?
The Sports Department doesn't tend to run letters where people oppose one of the columnist's positions with the exception of Simers, who is the Designated Antagonist.
Caveat emptor.
Plaschke's boys:
Green - quiet guy, little emotion on the field.
LoDuca - emotional pulse of the team, but often surly and irritable.
All that is wrong with the Dodgers:
Drew - quiet guy, little emotion on the field.
Bradley - emotional pulse of the team, but often surly and irritable.
Now my ability to revel in my own misery has been ruined.
Curses!
That notwithstanding, Bill Plaschke is an idiot.
he believes no one likes Jeff Kent or JD Drew...
he says he doesn't understand why, but chemistry is important to a team...
McCourt and DePodesta have everything to lose, Bradley and Kent have nothing to lose in this matter...Bradley and Kent are just passing thru, while McCourt and DePodesta have an image to maintain for the Dodgers in the community...
That's exactly what Plaschke is. He covers the Dodgers like the Times covers City Hall or the state Legislature. It's all about the who's-up/who's down gossip, and precious little about anything that's truly meaningful.
I read this morning's column as a declaration of war by the Times against DePodesta, and also as a declaration of war against the whole blog community focused around baseball: DT and its posters, 6-4-2, Firejimtracy.com, etc. Plaschke is lifting his leg on the whole concept of evaluating players by meaningful performance measures, and suggesting instead that a baseball team should be chosen by the players' ability to charm reporters.
The attempt to boost Tracy in his column is another joke. Any objective sports columnist in any other town would say Tracy has lost control of the Dodger clubhouse. If JT really told Bradley and Kent to stop talking to media about this, and they ignored him, that's because they don't respect him, and they don't believe in him.
Obviously, the owner's PR guy has told him he should dump Bradley. I think that's a mistake not just on a baseball level, but on a PR level. I don't think this city's African American community is going to appreciate a native Angeleno who is active in the community being abandoned. Yeah, he popped off and he was stupid to do so. But he could have been asked to apologize and that would be the end of it.
Finally: Sutton v. Garvey anyone? Hello? Is chemistry really that important? A new book is out, "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Bronx is Burning." It's about the 1977 Yankee team in the context of New York's woes of that year. It is most enlightening to relive the out and out hatred between Jackson and Thurman Munson, and the almost deranged behavior of their manager, Billy Martin. The team seemed ready to explode. DT readers don't need to be reminded how that season turned out.
If McCourt is going to go and start a 12-step "good character" program, then I'm not looking forward to him making amends.
If McCourt refuses Plashcke, the worst that can happen is Plaschke writes some baseless, rant-filled "editorial" lacking in logic and skewed by personal vendetta. How is that any different from a Plaschke article based on an actual interview?
With all of the competing news outlets in print, television, and cyberspace, I don't understand why the Dodger's brass don't take a little control and grant "exclusive" interviews to more balanced media outlets. They have nothing to lose.
Fire Jim Tracy?
Fire the LA Times.
Whereas if McCourt doesn't talk to Plaschke, Plaschke gets to go off on the entire organization top to bottom.
Today's column, after all, is an optimistic one for the future of the Dodgers in Plaschke's mind. "They finally get it," he's saying. It's good PR for the mainstream.
Perspective has never been one of Plaschke's strong points.
That said, in the city that pioneered Showtime Basketball and the Lake Show, having a churchie, a broken-down canuck, and a wannabe-redneck head up the marketable aspects of the team, well, that's just sad. I would rather have 9 Milton Bradleys.
Also, if I were DePodesta and I read those comments from my boss, I would be sending my resume out today.
I look at the Atlanta Braves who play 90 miles from my house and I see all their division championships. Sure you can point to their single world series win but I think all of us Dodger fans would gladly take those NLDS and NLCS wins that they've enjoyed over the last 13 years. My point is this stuff doesn't happen in Atlanta. Other than the John Rocker deal which was dealt with swiftly can you name a Braves controversy?
In just the last couple of seasons we've had Odalis Perez calling out his teammates and Jim Tracy three or four times, Jeff Weaver publicly blaming Tracy for leaving him in too long, and numerous Milton Bradley episodes. I'm sure I'm leaving out a lot of others but let's just take those.
The time is long overdue for someone to clamp down on this and get the franchise back in the direction of being all about business and professionalism. There is absolutely no reason why the Atlanta model can't work in LA. Especially when Atlanta is on a tighter budget in a much smaller market.
He screwed up. He's 27 and he overreacted under stress, and displayed some ego and racial oversensitivity. He definitely created the problem himself. But I think McCourt is being precipitous in dumping him. PR people (I've worked with them for decades) can be the least wise people. They react to the moment. The press was negative on Bradley, the talk radio blowhards were negative on Bradley, so the PR people tell McCourt, "Bradley's a problem." How this incident will all look in three months is something most PR people lack the vision to conceive, and I think at that point, McCourt will be the one under fire if Bradley's gone. That was my point.
McCourt gets it now, according to Plaschke. Tracy always has gotten it, it's just the poor sod had to keep his mouth shut the entire time. Depodesta and the players are left on the outside looking in.
"The first thing you gotta understand is that sometimes we [African-Americans] be trippin'. "
So...yeah.
http://tinyurl.com/ax8m2
LOL
I'm never having him over to my place for dinner!
re: 22, as bad as this column by Plaschke seems, it really is no better or worse than any other (hit)piece he does.
Old Bear, Tracy does not play this team as a "scrappy, SB" team. Have you not noticed the lack of aggressiveness, SB's, etc.? Yes, he uses the bunt, sometimes wrongly, but he does not do so excessively. This team needs MORE aggressiveness, not less. They look much like the 2003 crew--flat, uninspired, and uninspiring.
Bradley will not be traded. They simply won't tender him a contract, thereby making him a FA before he otherwise would have been. He has no 2006 contract.
Hindsight says it was a horrible decision, but I liked the aggressive baserunning at that time.
He didn't use the word "indeed" in the article. Shocking, isn't it?
Now that's all well and good, unless the Dodgers actually let Plaschke start making decisions for the team. If Bradley or Depo are sacrificed on account of this, and I think Bradley is gone, that's a bad thing. But when you have a season this bad, there's going to be fallout.
I think the view that the Times is going after the blog viewpoint is taking it a bit far.
You know, it's sure a good thing that everyone knows how to run a baseball team better than Depo. Afterall, it was just random chance that he got the job, right?
One thing I did notice is that the quotes by McCourt were basically one-line tidbits that had zero context, so they could have been originally meant to mean just about anything. The line about Depo seeing the light could just of easily have been about Bradly, rather than player evaluation in general.
I still believe in Depo, I'm still suspicious of McCourt, I still think Tracy needs to leave, and I've always thought that Plaschke isn't even worth reading.
Excellent point. When this whole mess became public, it was natural for the "I told you so" crowd to blame the losing on chemistry problems, not on other things which are glaring yet fixable.
Injuries are an excuse for losing only up to a point. That is why depth on the roster is critical. This team, as constructed, could have been good, quite good, I believe. But the intended 2005 line-up never played a SINGLE game together. It was a huge injury risk, which Stat Boy should've planned for better. That means not accumulating AL farm rejects and retreads like Grabowski, Rose, and Cody Ross.
You can get bench talent for a reasonable price. You don't have to pay $4 million a year for good back-ups. I'm certainly not saying that would've saved their season, but being as close as they have stayed, they could be a little closer.
When you have four or five rookies or retreads starting at once, you are doomed. How many games this year featured some combination of Rose, Ross, Grabowski, Repko, and Edwards? Far too many.
Repko and Edwards are guys who actually have some talent, Repko more than Edwards. I have hope for them, especially for Repko, who should at least be a good 4th OF. But there is no reason to keep picking up guys like the other three, let alone expect them to contribute anything.
The Angels are a good example of supplying depth. For the last three years, they have had injury-plagued teams, but their stellar bench players keep them in it. In fact, they often have had trouble getting guys in the line-up because there's no space for them.
The Dodgers need to assemble more depth. They need to make some very wise trades and hope for better health and one or two more young guys to be ready next year. There is a dearth of talent on the FA market, so I don't expect much from there.
Undeniably true, but reporters/columnists are never accountable if their counsel is adapted and then turns out bad. I think you're alluding to the Angels' situation, i.e. the Times treatment of Arte Moreno as a God. Well: Look at the standings. Hard to argue with the Times if they think Moreno's doing well.
If McCourt dumps Bradley and then dumps DePo, Plaschke will cheer. But if the Dodgers finish out of the running in 2006, Plaschke won't say, "we were wrong." He'll say McCourt panicked.
I have to say that Bob Timmerman has pretty much nailed this one on the head. Its obvious to anyone whos spent time watching Milton Bradley play that no one is as hard on Milton as Milton. So after a frustrating year of playing hurt and watching your team struggle, the last thing you need is the hall of fame loner in the corner calling you out for not hustling.
But there is one point that Milton made that has gotten lost, most likely because he pointed the finger at the media. That point is that often times when referring to a white player being vocal or demonstrative, the white player will be called "Firey" or "Intense" where in the past when Milton exhibits the same behavior, it's "he's a head case" or "he's got issues." He does have a point there.
Yes, Plaschke's views always remind me of the social psychological phenomenon of people discounting or ignoring evidence that doesn't support their views, while they focus more on things that do support them.
An example is Plaschke's claim a while back that the current regime banned fans from watching Dodger BP because they wanted to save money on security personnel. However, the truth is that the Fox regime started that ban, not the McCourts. But that falsehood fit PERFECTLY with the image of them being cheap and penny-pinching.
What they didn't have is depth to withstand long-term absences by Drew and Bradley and Ledee. Arguably, the bench needed to be deeper. But it was hardly barren.
When you get into many ugly scrapes with fans and umpires, as well as repeated run-ins with the law, that is more than being "fiery." It is a serious problem.
Because it really wasn't. The mid 1950s Dodgers had deeop divisions in the clubhouse especially between those who were in Jackie Robinson's camp and those who were in Roy Campanella's camp.
Plaschke
April 5, 2004
"A team suffering from serious ownership credibility can show that at least the new general manager is trying. Milton Bradley is the Dodgers' best overall hitter. Right now. Period. ... the Indians are thrilled to rid themselves of a guy they had essentially thrown off the team last week for bad behavior. To which I reply with two words: Gary Sheffield. One of the best pure hitters to sit in the Dodger dugout in many years, he was traded for being a miscreant, a move that was originally applauded in this space until the ensuing losing taught me better.
The idea of clubhouse chemistry having evaporated after 15 years of feel-good
failures, it is time to face the nasty truth. The Dodgers need some jerks who can play... One thing Bradley hasn't done is fight with his teammates... The Dodgers are acquiring Bradley not for his leadership, but his knocks... "We have looked closely at Milton, and we think he will be fine in the clubhouse," DePodesta said."
"In granting his first newspaper interview about the racially charged feud between Milton Bradley and Jeff Kent, Mccourt's swings were mighty indeed."
I didn't say it was a barren bench. Ledee, Perez, and Saenz are all good players whom I like. However, they were not enough to rely on, especially when Saenz had prior health issues, as well, and cannot play every day.
The entire starting OF (intended) had injury histories, and it was wrong to count on Ledee and Grabowski, as well as AAA guys like Edwards and Ross. Oh, yes, there is always Chen, too, when needed.
I hope Bradley is back, and he may yet be. The problem will be for DePodesta getting a bat to replace his.
Funny, I thought that would be brought up. Kent's actions were lame in that incident, but how many times did that incident occur? Once. Bradley has had repeated problems in a variety of circumstances with different people.
I am NOT eager to see Bradley go. I was proud of his calmness this year and thought he had finally turned it around. At this point, though, can they continue to gamble with him?
In the past, Plaschke has been ridiculed for his poor writing, indefensible simplification, and bad analysis. He is probably guilty of all of those things today as well, but he seems to have struck something a little deeper as well. "Methinks we doth protest too much."
Along the lines of bigcpa's irony alert, Plaschke was very vocal in complaining that Dan Evans didn't make any changes at the deadline in 2003 while the Padres acquired Brian Giles. He wondered why the Dodgers were always on the sidelines when it came to trades.
We've protested more. With Steve not around, we're fairly reserved by our normal standards!
- meaning, we secretly like Plaschke? We secretly agree with him?
I'll grant you that there's a lot of hyperbolic criticism of Plaschke, but your conclusion seems to imply something further ... which I'm not understanding.
"I think [for Milton Bradley] to make it a race issue is ridiculous. Jeff Kent doesn't discriminate against anybody. He ignores Latinos, blacks and whites equally."
- Lance Berkman
Meaning that the character and chemistry issue has been routinely dismissed on this site. The typical (though not universal) response is that "winning breeds chemistry", and although that statement isn't incorrect I would argue that it's a gross simplification (IMHO).
I agree that winning does build chemistry. You can have a bunch of misfits and miscreants but if they're winning at a .700 clip than the team will get along fine. However, chemistry can also breed winning. Not always, and not on every team, but if a lesser caliber team has a good rapport - that can directly translate into more victories. And unlike what others on this site have said, I would argue that this is more true in baseball than any other sport. The season is long and grueling and you are essentially living with 25 guys for six months, if the team has "chemistry" it can make going out on the field each and every day an enjoyable experience. The grind of a 162 game season is minimized, individual performance improves if your mental outlook is better, and consequently the team's performance improves. I have been coaching on the college level for over a decade (not baseball) and each team is different - some get along great and don't play very well, some have internal struggles and overcome them, and others have an unquantifiable chemistry that enables them to play better than their talent would dictate. I suppose my point is that the "chemistry" issue has negative connotations for most DT readers, and my experience leads me to believe that although chemistry can't make a talent-less team great it can make a talented team better.
In a fairly lengthy piece in the Los Angeles Times yesterday, several Astros denied Kent was a bad teammate or a racist. Berkman stated that everyone loved him and would love to have him back. Granted, I don't believe the Astros had any blacks on their team last year, but Berkman's comment about wanting him back was more telling to me.
I'll take 25 talented players that have "poor chemistry" over a team full of AAA-talent that make me feel warm and fuzzy.
The ideal situation is that you have both, chemistry and talent, but I'm not sure you can say winning is dependant on chemistry.
The negative connotation comes from the media and management's insinuation that we'd rather have guys that we like, rather than guys that can play (Phillips over Choi, for example).
I think, however, that the problem people (well, I'll speak for myself), I, have with the Plaschke article is that it equates the organization's view of team chemsitry solely with whether or not they continue to employ Milton Bradley with countervaling arguments on either side (good guys, other guys who might be jerks) completely ignored. Jose Guillen is waiting in the wings as exhibit b.
Who wasn't worked in some group setting where there was some person one of us couldn't get along with? But maybe that person could do his/her job well and we just had to put up with it.
"Good chemistry" and "bad chemistry" I think can only be determined in hindsight with any accuracy.
dang double negatives...
Next year, when the Dodgers don't lose 1000 player-days to the DL, winning the Western Division title with many of the same players from this season's core, Plaschke will tell us that this moment was the turning point; when Frank McCourt had finally "seen the light" and learned what it means to run a baseball team.
1b Green $17M
3b Beltre $14M
C LoDuca $7M
CF Finley $7M
LF Roberts $1M
RF Encarnacion $4M
2b Cora $1M
SS Izzy $3M
Weaver- $9M
Gagne- $10M
Dreifort- $13M
OK I'm at $86M. I have 9 active players. My offense will get along great and score 3.5 runs/game. I don't have Brad Penny. Now I just need 4 starters with good character and preferably playoff caliber talent. Any ideas?
trade Kevin Brown (file also under "salary dump") - undeniably good result
trade Gary Sheffield - undeniably bad result, although, frankly I feel better about myself not having to root for him
trade Raul Mondesi - good result unless you couple it with the $87 million Green extension. Additonal note- Mondy's principle offense, the bleep Davey bleep Kevin Malone speech, was actually something that every Dodger fan could get behind.
don't resign Don Sutton - pretty bad
Other examples?
Despite Plaschke's slant, I was glad to hear McCourt is mad and wants to do something about it.
12 of them were about the Dodgers and all were universally opposed to the changes the Dodgers had made. 3 of them were vehemently opposed to the Bradley acquistion. One writer called him "dugout poison".
Another complained that DePodesta got fleeced in letting Cabrera and Romano go in spring training. So Mr. Geoff Flynn of Palmdale do you wish you hadn't been published now?
Bobby Bonilla?
Pedro Guerrero for John Tudor - why did we trade our best hitter in the middle of a pennant race? I was 12, so I don't feel like I got the full story.
bill.plaschke@latimes.com
But Penny's milk incident? The way I heard it was pretty funny. Offered the bat boy $500 for drinking a gallon of milk... so the kid puked. If he got his $500 then it's all good, if not then yeah, it's bad. Am I missing something on this? Did the kid get deathly ill?
I'm in San Diego and I've been hearing the terms "laughingstock" and "dysfunctional" a little too much lately from colleagues and the radio... so that's where I'm coming from.
Is anyone anywhere at all embarrassed about the Penny milk incident?
Not at all... could have been beer, then what? Last I heard milk does a body good.
We all remember what we were like in our 20's, sometimes I forget that these are just kids making a lot of money.
Jon, it makes me think of the Adam Dunn Scouting Excursion. I was excited that came off so well. All but one person showed up and I was pretty excited and also pretty loud. It was fun. But I wonder how it would've appeared in print that I kept trying to convince ten reasonable adults that Hee Seop Choi is in fact our lord and savior. I think the media reports might've been less than kind.
Pedro Guerrero was traded for John Tudor because Fred Claire felt that the Dodgers needed one more pitcher to compete in the playoffs. Guerrero had been hurt a lot in 1988 and he was generally unhappy. He also got kicked out of a game in early August which left the Dodgers short of position players, so they had to use Tim Leary (whose pitching had tailed off in August also) as a pinch-hitter.
Leary ended up getting the game-winning hit in that game.
That was against the Giants, and it was wonderful.
Peter Gammons, whom I think very highly off, said this: "The Dogders would not have won the World Series without John Tudor."
Sure...
If he was still with the Dodgers in August, was it a post-waiver deal?
I knew he wasn't what he once was for the Dodgers that year, but man did he have a couple of years for the Cardinals after the trade.
I specifically remember Tudor walking off the mound after a pitch (similar to Penny last year, where you just know), I think for good, but I don't remember what year that was.
I believe he was eventually traded to the Reds for Kal Daniels.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/guerrpe01.shtml
July 18, 1989: Traded by the Los Angeles Dodgers with Mariano Duncan to the Cincinnati Reds for Kal Daniels and Lenny Harris. (baseballreference.com)
Pedro Guerrero will turn 50 next year.
Tudor threw 52 1/3 innings for the Dodgers in 1988 with a 2.41 ERA.
He had an excellent 1990, from what I remember.
Kids at school started making fun of me, called me Brent Musburger.
If memory serves, John Tudor was Jeff Kent without the charm. That may be overly harsh...
So they would have gone into the playoffs with a star player with a really bad attitude.
Another deadline deal Claire made was acquiring Ricky Horton from the White Sox so the team could have another lefty in the pen since Orosco was less than stellar in 1988.
Horton threw 4 1/3 IP in the NLCS and didn't appear in the World Series. Horton was put on the playoff roster instead of Tim Crews, who had a pretty good year in 1988 and was one of the few Dodger pitchers who pitched well against the Mets in the regular season.
He later helped us acquire Eddie Murray.
Are they on the raft yet?
It's really one of my enduring shames. I can't believe I made it through college without encountering that book! I was exposed to a lot of world lit and of course the brits but virtually nothing from American Lit until I changed my major.
"My heart is in St. Louis, but my arm will be in Los Angeles," Tudor said Tuesday. "I really didn't foresee it happening, although I guess this is the logical time for contending teams to do something like that.
"I don't relish the idea of going over there as the guy who's going to try to pick it up for them. I'm not going to be the one to do that. It's going to be a team effort . . . This is hard. In my mind, I'm still a Cardinal. The whole thing hasn't had a chance to set in yet."
It's pronounced "Cay-ro".
It will make sense later.
And you will wonder why Twain was writing about an NFL team with the "Dolphin" character.
(Internet) Icaros, one of the more consistent posters on Dodger Thoughts, hit the first homerun in the month of August today. Tagged out earlier in the thread by SB after reaching third and showing impressive dominance in the 130's, all that seemed left to accomplish was the homerun. He got it with a combination of staying on topic, making allusions to past posts, self-deprecating humor and ironically a promise to "stop blabbing."
After "missing the tag" with post 148, SB was heard to say "He's always been one of my favorites. I'm happy for him though getting cleated on the slide with that jab about Huck Finn is something I won't be forgetting anytime soon."
Despite a recent move to the bay area, the homerun Icaros indicates he will be a presence on the DT board for many moons to come. "I like it!", said SB. Other posters were not available to comment, probably wondering if they can get word in edgewise...
I have been silent on Bradley/Kent. I think I am willing to cut Bradley more slack because of the disadvantages I assume he had when he was young. Kent I don't like. He is a fine ballplayer, but other than the fact that he does not like Barry Bonds I find nothing likeable about him.
I don't like rooting for a team made up of ballplayers who are jerks. I assume that if DePo assembles a 2006 Dodger team of 25 players equal in ability to Jeff Kent and who have Kent's personality that the Dodgers will win the 2006 World Series. That will be all well and good for most Dodger fans I assume, but this long time Dodger fan will not be cheering.
I don't expect DePo or any other general manager to assemble a roster of 25 gentleman players. There is however a limit to the number of jerks I am willing to accept on a roster. DePo and McCourt are very close to that limit right now.
Stan from Tacoma
It has been pretty easy to stay consistent on DT. I'm without a job (temporarily), living at my parents' house for the first time in 12 years (temporarily!), and I have no friends here (we'll see).
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2143002&partnersite=espn
As for Icaros, we will just call him "Costanza" for the time being.
Bradley (controversy)
Kent (standoffish, insensitive)
Lowe (gigolo)
Penny (milk)
O. Perez (out of shape in mind and body)
A. Perez (disinterested in third base in March)
Weaver (head case)
Phillips (expects to play somewhere)
Drew (quiet, takes walks)
I don't think Penny's prank was taken in any way other than fun by anyone involved. That includes the "kid."
I don't think the Dodgers are made up of jerks. I think they're made up of human beings. I think they are human beings worth rooting for because they wear the Dodger uniform and they care about playing well. I think that's beyond dispute.
We can't get rid of the "jerks" unless we're willing to identify them. I can't find any on the Dodgers. Emotional? Different? Yes. So are most people.
For what it's worth, I'd be willing to play with any of the DT posters, any time, including you. I assume we won't always get along. That doesn't make us jerks. It makes us human.
Isn't Scott Erickson the poster boy in the jerk department?
My plan now is to become a surgical technician, but I have to wait a year to start training because I missed the application deadline by one week.
If I can parlay that into work as a hand model or a job with the Yankees I'll take it.
LOL
And as for the Penny milk thing, its a common prank and who's to say penny didnt already know the Kid? He did play for florida for some years you know, also is this the first time any of you have heard of this? We did this to the freshman of my team(only for 100 bucks), its classic make em puke for being greedy.
I'm curious, under what conditions would you accept that? Are you willing to tolerate another season in which, as we know now, there is a persistent friction with Kent? Choose Bradley over Kent, given one or the other? Some sort of reconciliation (I'm not sure how realistic this is)? I thinnk having both of them say they will tolerate each other is going to result in another season like this one, I'm afraid (perhaps without this catastrophic end result).
Just wondering what people think are the possibilities.
McCourt, DePo and Tracy have all gone out of their way to help Bradley. When he was told to stop talking to the press and then he immediately violated that command, he wrote his own walking papers.
Which is really the point of this thread, I think. Plaschke thinks he knows. He doesn't.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. If you let Bradley come back after willfull disobedience, what are you really saying?
Also, if chemistry is soooo important to winning and good 'clubhouse guys' are so easily identifiable, why would a team ever allow such a player to leave via trade or FA? And, since such players are rarely available, why is it supposed to be so easy to acquire them?
My point is probably poorly articulated (after-lunch slowness), so I'll try this:
ASSUME:
(1) When making decisions to construct a pro baseball roster, a player's character should be considered alongside his talent level
(2) The pool of players does not include an abundance players of both good talent and character
(3) Since chemistry and character are important, players of good character should never be replaced with players of poor character
(4) So, how the heck is a team supposed to be able to acquire ONLY players with 'good character', if they are (almost) never available?
Just kidding.
How about they just shut it, and go out and play? And even if they can't keep quiet, they would only be sandbagging future contracts (esp. in Bradley's case) by dogging it.
BTW, the irony is delicious, that the "character" (Ecks) guy is far outperforming the high-paid "talent" guy (Cabrera).
I didn't understand McCourt's comments as saying they were only going to acquire chemistry guys. My understanding of his comments is that there are a few players throughout MLB who, no matter how good they are, you do not want on your team. In other words, to change sports, if you were an NFL owner, would you offer TO a contract?
I'm late to this thread, but FWIW, Jon was overreacting, but not out of line. Plaschke overreacts as regularly and surely as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, so it's only right to throw it back at him every now and then. :-)
Reminds me a lot of the punks in high school who used to tease a mongoloid friend of mine for their own amusement. I'm no fighter, but I used to love wading into them.
I don't think the same can be said for Bradley. There's no doubt that he's a talented player, and may even become a great player. And I don't doubt that Kent may be a bit racially insensitive - he's the son of a motorcycle cop who likes dirt bikes and spends the off-season on a Texas cattle ranch - which certainly doesn't mean he's a racist but could indicate that he's a bit of a redneck. Kent is probably not much of a clubhouse leader but he isn't necessarily a distraction either.
On the other hand, Bradley seems to be burdened with a pretty severe persecution complex. Someone on this site has mentioned this previously, and I would have to agree. Look at his repeated responses to situations in which he believed he was being wronged, from the bottle throwing incident to the traffic stop to Kent questioning his effort on a single play. Bradley overreacts to confrontation. Worse than that, his feeling of being wronged doesn't dissipate quickly; for example, Bradley's childish pointing toward the dugout after legging out a play the next day sealed the deal for me - Bradley will continue to have problems no matter where he goes. Maybe he can overcome these traits, but I doubt it and although I might be a little disappointed to see him go mostly I will just be relieved.
My prediction: if Kent is gone, and Bradley stays there will be another incident next year. It could involve a teammate, an opponent, or a heckler, but Bradley's problems with confrontation will continue to rear it's ugly head again and again.
C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
I mean, was it a peer pressure or frat house situation? Or was it, yeah, I'll try it - but if I can't do it, I'll just walk away.
I'm not saying your position about puking is right or wrong. I'm just confused by your use of the quote.
Also, these bat boys are not little kids. They are actually paid professional young adults who have a damn cool job. I've seen them with facial hair, even. I'm sure Penny is not even ten years older than this guy.
196- Even though he didn't puke, he probably experienced some gastronomic unpleasantness in the processing, and expulsion of what milk he did consume. Unfortunately, diarrhea is even funnier than puking.
I'm probably going to hell.
The milk trick is the sort of thing I can imagine my grandfather pulling on me, and then laughing at me for.
OK, so you knew that. Got it.
I love C.S. Lewis, but I think if we had ever had dinner together, the evening would have ended with him slapping my face.
Or, perhaps, puking all over your shoes.
Vin, I doubt you read any of this, but when you are gone there are going to be a lot of Dodger fans go with you unless this organization makes a concerted change in the way it operates. I can and will simply stop being a Dodger fan if the people on the field, in the broadcast booth, and in the front office are not people I can identify with.
Stan from Tacoma
Otherwise it's going to be really hard for him to know exactly which prospective employees fit your criteria for personal identification.
I say all that as an ex-NFL fan. I have never sent the NFL Commissioner my views nor do I care to do so. I have no illusions about my views having any particular currency; the NFL has done quite nicely without me as I have done without them.
Stan from Tacoma
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