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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Tracy Goes the Eric Karros Route
2005-09-30 09:03
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Bye, Jim.

Years ago, Dodger manager Jim Tracy earned credibility with his ability to see things as they were. He saw that Eric Gagne could extinguish a ninth-inning fire and let him have at it. He saw that Eric Karros did not deserve to be a full-time first baseman and benched him.

Karros groused until the Cubs came home, but Tracy held his ground.

But today, it's the introspectiveless Tracy who has become the bitter, incendiary emblem for pointing fingers at anyone but himself, and his comments in this morning's papers are probably the ultimate signal that he will soon be gone.

Until now, everyone has felt injuries played a role in the Dodgers' poor season. Some have criticized Paul DePodesta for signing injury-prone players, others have felt that the cumulative injuries were beyond what DePodesta could have rightfully expected.

Until now, there hasn't been anyone who felt that if all the players had been healthy, if J.D. Drew, Milton Bradley, Odalis Perez, Cesar Izturis, Jayson Werth, Kelly Wunsch, Eric Gagne and everyone else had avoided the disabled list - however remote you consider that possibility - that the Dodgers couldn't have won more than 90 games.

Until now.

"Would [health] have made us a 90- to 95-win club? No," Tracy said to Paul Gutierrez in the Times.

This is a leader? This is an organizational soldier? This is the classy guy I keep hearing about?

This is a manager?

Tracy told the press that the only way you win a division title is with familiar faces on the team. That's the Jim Tracy Secret to Managerial Success. It's a fallacy, he told the Daily News, to think that a manager should mold together the talent he has been given.

What in the world else is left for you to do, Jim?

For that matter, Tracy believes the Dodgers were doomed from the start even though 60 percent of the team in April was with the National League West champion Dodgers in 2004. And part of the departed group was Steve Finley, himself a new face to the team. Tracy's entire premise is dubious.

Tracy has become nothing but a self-sob story, a persistent excuse-maker. He's the blind leading the unblind.

In contrast to what some sportswriters wrote in today's editions, this was not the first time Tracy has criticized the construction of the 2005 Dodgers. Still, his latest comments seem to indicate that he has already resolved to leave the Dodgers, that he has heard he will not be offered a contract extension and that he has no intention of staying without one.

Whether that's the case or not, Tracy has blown up his own castle. He has rid DePodesta of the need to be politic and buy out the remaining year on Tracy's contract. No organization should stomach a manager who says he can't possibly win 90 games with full seasons from multiple All-Star players. Tracy might have been speaking out of frustration, but his thick-headedness is amazing. With these comments, he should feel lucky if he gets to manage anywhere in 2006, let alone Los Angeles. I think I might actually pity him, except that no doubt there are plenty of people in baseball who agree with his bogus assessment, who will continue to point every finger at DePodesta for using, like 99 percent of the country's population, a technological innovation created decades ago, who will continue to call Tracy classy and cerebral and a players' manager.

But for the Dodgers, on to the managerial search. May it be quick and efficient and satisfying, and not distract DePodesta from continuing to nurture the team on the field. May it yield a manager who takes responsibility for wins and losses, and not just the former.

Comments (249)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-09-30 10:14:01
1.   Bob Timmermann
The question is: What sort of team would Tracy like?
2005-09-30 10:16:48
2.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
What the...?
So, JT doesn't believe Gagne, Drew, Bradley, et al would've helped, but Finley, Cora and Lima would have?
Fire Jim Tracy indeed.
2005-09-30 10:17:25
3.   DougS
Remember when McCourt and then DePo both publicly accepted responsibility for the disappointing season by admitting that they'd made some mistakes, and then Tracy failed to follow suit? Did I lose some respoect for the man? Yes I did. Did I think that he should have noticed his cue and followed it? Oh yeah.
2005-09-30 10:17:31
4.   Jon Weisman
The difficulty of answering this question is why I've turned so dramatically on him. It was less than a year ago that I supported him, and I'm surprised to this moment that I'm writing pieces like I just did about him.

Essentially, it would appear that Tracy would like a team that manages itself - one that has talent, chemistry and doesn't get hurt. Tracy would like a Tracy-proof team.

2005-09-30 10:17:37
5.   Vishal
[1] not to be blunt, but i think the answer is: who cares?

if it's not the one assembled by los angeles dodgers, then good riddance.

2005-09-30 10:22:26
6.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I can't remember the last time a manager with a history of success* has soured, in on-field results and attitude, so quickly.

* - History, as in a few seasons. This weeds out one-season wonders. Or even half-season wonders, like Joe Morgan (no, not that one; the other one) with the 88 Red Sox.

2005-09-30 10:23:57
7.   jasonungar05
from the article in the Daily News.

"We gave him a two-year deal for a reason," DePodesta said. "At this point, he's still under contract to us for a second year."

This was my favorite. So much is said in that statement.

2005-09-30 10:26:25
8.   Warren
As I've wrote on this forum before, I really have no feeling either way on Tracy. If he returns I think you can make a case that he deserves another single year with a healthy lineup. If he leaves you can make the case that his heart wasn't in it and we need new blood. But that being said let's put some perspective on this.

First, he didn't say that having a healthy roster wouldn't have helped as insinuated by 2 above. He said it wouldn't necessarily have made them a 90-95 win team.

Second, we're making claims based on the LA Times running a few selected sentences from Tracy without the benefit of knowing the questions asked. The devil is in the details here and we don't have those details unless the Times wants to run the full transcript.

What if Tracy was asked, "assuming you had the opening day lineup healthy all season, were you are lock to repeat in the NL West?" Of course the answer to that is no. Nothing is certain.

When Tracy tries to be Mr. Optimism telling us in late August that if they can just pick off one game per week they can make the postseason, we laugh at that. On the flip side when he answers a question fairly honestly we immediately start saying that he's ducking his fair share of the blame.

I think we have to see how this thing plays out at least over the next 7-10 days before anyone can reasonably assert that Tracy is turning this into a sob story for himself. Most importantly if that was his goal why not serve notice, rip the GM, and start looking at that Pittsburgh job?

2005-09-30 10:27:04
9.   SMY
Great post, as usual.

Maybe Tracy should get himself a GM position and show us how to build a team.

2005-09-30 10:31:59
10.   scanderbeg
Tracy's reaction seems a little melodramatic. He certainly feels the pressure that the fans are putting on him, but DePo and McCourt have had enough personal fortitude to admit to their own mistakes. I don't think someone is capable of leadership when they begin to cave when there is pressure and things go poorly. Tracy's stubbornness may be the cause of his eventual departure from the Dodgers. I can't see him returning next season.
2005-09-30 10:35:05
11.   Jon Weisman
8 - Tracy asked his own question. He asked himself if the team would have won 90 games if healthy. He said no.

And by the way, I didn't laugh at Tracy's statement about picking up a game a week.

2005-09-30 10:44:23
12.   jasonungar05
well plus the 2002 dodgers were very similar to the 2003 dodgers. So what happened?
2005-09-30 10:44:47
13.   Bob Timmermann
I wonder if on Sunday, Tracy will have a mini-explosion and get himself kicked out just like Davey Johnson did in his last game as Dodgers manager.

Which was also at San Diego.

2005-09-30 10:46:26
14.   Im So Blue
8 ...we're making claims based on the LA Times running a few selected sentences from Tracy without the benefit of knowing the questions asked. The devil is in the details here...

It's not just the LA Times. The Daily News, OC Register and Riverside PE have essentially the same quotes as the Times.

From the OC Register:

It is as close to criticizing GM Paul DePodesta's offseason dismantling of the 2004 NL West champions as Tracy has come while suffering through his first losing season as manager.

"Some of the elements we had last year that made us successful were not here this year," Tracy said.
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/sports/pros/article_696272.php

And from the Riverside P-E:

In his frustration, Tracy stopped just short of publicly disagreeing with the overhaul of the Dodgers by General Manager Paul DePodesta...
"Injuries play a part, but it's not an excuse," Tracy said. "Is this a roster of 90-95 wins? No. ... Is there some work to be done here? Very definitely. Is it fixable? Yes."
http://www.pe.com/sports/baseball/dodgers/stories/PE_Sports_Local_D_dodgers_30.1cd8479f.html

2005-09-30 10:47:38
15.   Fallout
One way or another, Tracy's comments makes me think that he is not coming back. But, why is everyone so stuck on Pittsburg? How about Florida?

Who here thinks that the McCourts are doing a good job? Would you like working for these used car salesman?

2005-09-30 10:51:06
16.   sanchez101
15. Im suprised no one here has considered Florida as tracy's possible destination. It seems likely that there will be an opening there, and of course lo duca is there.
2005-09-30 10:53:37
17.   molokai
Like Jon I was a big JT fan until this year. I thought he had done a great job in the past of playing players where they had the best chance to succeed. I'm sure he believes that Choi is not a major league 1st baseman. I'm sure he believes that A Perez is not ready to start in the major leagues. For whatever reason I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until the following issues showed up this year.
1. Playing Philips at 1st base when he had so many better options. We've gone over the options here in detail so no need to list them again.
2. Not handling the Milton Bradley situation. It shows how much the local press likes JT that he got a pass on this. How can a manager state that he had no idea of the acrimony that had developed between his two best position players without being asked why he didn't know when it seemed to be common knowledge?
3. His incredible ability to leave certain pitchers in until they gave up the big home run. He got so good at it that I was starting to call home runs at the games and naive fans were praising my ability not realizing that at least 20 DT posters were making the same call at the same time.
3. In the spring of 2005 I had to endure JT talking. It was agonizing and I think at that moment I know longer wanted him to be our manager. Anyone who can take 5 minutes to say what could be said in 30 seconds has issues with communication and not someone who I want to be a manager of 25 different personalities. If I played for him, when he would start his soliloquy my eyes would be rolling so far back into my brain that you'd need a pliers to pull them back.
2005-09-30 10:54:51
18.   Eric Enders
I also didn't laugh at Tracy's statement about picking up a game a week. In fact, I laughed at those who laughed at it.
2005-09-30 10:56:27
19.   Eric Enders
17
Agree with most of that post, but I think Tracy handled the Bradley-Kent situation about as well as he possibly could have.
2005-09-30 10:56:33
20.   SMY
I'm agnostic on the McCourts, but when Frank threw DePo under the bus on the chemistry issue and the tidbit from John Heyman the other day (yeah, I know he's an idiot) about Jamie not liking DePo, I fear they're going to cave into the media pressure, fire DePo, and hire some media-approved moron like Jim Bowden (or reasonable facsimile).

Oh, and I hadn't thought of Florida either, but that makes a lot of sense.

2005-09-30 10:59:15
21.   Steve
Cubs, Nats (maybe), Marlins, Pirates, D-Rays, Oakland (yeah, not JT, but it tips another domino), probably a couple no one has considered.

Followed by the characteristic shuffling of low-wattage, mediocre managers, followed by characteristic dissatisfaction with said managers, followed by firing of said managers, followed by continuing merry-go-round of mediocre managers.

2005-09-30 11:00:07
22.   molokai
15
I have no problem with the McCourts but then I don't work for them. Do you know anyone who works for the Dodgers and has stated a problem ? Why compare them to used car salesman? They have not lied or misrepresented anything that I'm aware of. Their only evil seems to be that they aren't as loaded as the local media wanted the buyers of the Dodgers to be and they now run the team like a business that needs to be profitable instead of a write off.
2005-09-30 11:00:40
23.   Eric Enders
Off topic, but the following list of offseason free agents might prove handy, as well as a topic for discussion:

Paul Konerko
Kevin Millar
Frank Thomas
Ron Belliard
Ray Durham
Rafael Furcal
Nomar Garciaparra
Julio Lugo
Bill Mueller
Johnny Damon
Brian Giles
Carlos Lee
Hideki Matsui
Larry Walker
Ramon Hernandez
Mike Piazza

A.J. Burnett
Roger Clemens
Esteban Loaiza
Kevin Millwood
Matt Morris
Jason Schmidt
Danys Baez
Ryan Dempster
Octavio Dotel
Kyle Farnsworth
Tom Gordon
Trevor Hoffman
Felix Rodriguez
B.J. Ryan
Ugueth Urbina
Billy Wagner

My vote would be for two of the following: Garciaparra, Mueller, Giles, Lee, Matsui, Damon, Thomas, Konerko.

2005-09-30 11:03:45
24.   Sam DC
Well, I guess Steve really has retired because there's nothing new at his site.
2005-09-30 11:04:05
25.   SMY
If Izturis is really going to miss all or most of the season, I'd bet on Nomar getting a 1 or 2 year deal to play SS or 3B.
2005-09-30 11:04:36
26.   molokai
19
Sorry I can't agree. A proactive manager who knew what was happening in his dugout would have known that the nagging/harping by Kent was having a negative effect on MB and would have quickly had a heart to heart with both players before it turned into the current situation. JMO
2005-09-30 11:05:08
27.   jasonungar05
Guys on the list above I like for 2006

BJ Ryan
Matsui
Wagner
Furcal
Giles

2005-09-30 11:06:15
28.   Ken Arneson
The Dodgers wouldn't have been a 90-95 win club if healthy? So what? They only needed to be an 80-85 win club to make the playoffs.
2005-09-30 11:08:38
29.   Sam DC
And I really am speechless. I mean, I've got many of the usual complaints about Tracy, but if he'd come back I wouldn't have been shocked or bothered. One more year, with hopefully better health and hopefully some more time for DePodesta and him to find some workable consensus. Mostly, I really always assumed he was a decent guy, maybe someone who disagreed with me or with his boss.

But this is indecent. In the final days of a crushingly disappointing season, he rips his own team? Just obnoxious. Even if he'd decided to leave, fine, but what utter bad form. Of course, this whole episode worries me quite a bit that Jim Bowden may have found his perfect manager . . .

(Actually, I doubt Bowden will be back in DC because new owners are going to want to build, but Robinson will be here because they wouldn't dare fire him. Unless he really goes to the mat for a 3-year deal as he has said he will; cannot imagine any new owners would go for that, with the mouth he's got on him.)

2005-09-30 11:09:00
30.   molokai
23
Lugo and Carlos Lee have team options and are not free agents unless the team decides not to exercise the option which would be very doubtfull for Lee and a little less so for Lugo since it is the DevilRays and it is on the high end.
2005-09-30 11:09:14
31.   Howard Fox
I have never been a Jim Tracy fan since he first took over. To answer Bob in 1 the type of team Tracy would seem to like would be the Yankees of a couple of years ago who had a set lineup and rotation and required little thought.

This morning's article was not surprising at all. He has never taken any responsibility for anything wrong while taking all credit for everything right.

2005-09-30 11:11:21
32.   Howard Fox
My vote for next manager is the manager of our Jacksonville AA club.
2005-09-30 11:11:22
33.   Bob Timmermann
I know it was a joke, but the McCourts aren't used car salesmen. And even if you use Simers' "Boston Parking Lot Attendant" moniker, parking lots generate $1,531,982,000 in revenue annually in the U.S., not counting the value of the land that they are built. That money is just the amount that is collected by people parking their cars.
2005-09-30 11:13:40
34.   Howard Fox
16 Whether or not he were to go to Florida, I don't think LoDuca would give his number up to Tracy again, and thus Tracy would lose his love for him.
2005-09-30 11:15:17
35.   Sam DC
23 I was at a Yankees/Orioles game this week sitting behind a big bald man with a clipboard and a stopwatch who claimed to be an employee of the Minnesota Twins. He overhead my friends and I talking about free agents and jumped in to correct us that Matsui was not a free agent next year. No idea who's right, though I certainly trust Eric more than a stranger with a clipboard. (Although Americans are quite likely to trust strangers with clipboards.)
2005-09-30 11:16:14
36.   Bob Timmermann
Are you sure the man was referring to Hideki and not Kazuo Matsui?
2005-09-30 11:16:27
37.   Jon Weisman
I like that Howard referred to post 16 in discussing who wears No. 16.
2005-09-30 11:16:56
38.   SMY
33 -- So what you're saying is I should run out and buy myself a parking lot? Hmm...
2005-09-30 11:17:16
39.   molokai
Bob, I really have to agree with you. The Pre game talk here at DT is so much better then the in game carping that goes on. Now I understand why Jon used two threads each day. It just took me all summer to figure it out.
2005-09-30 11:18:15
40.   Sam DC
36 Very sure, because I was the one saying the Matsui was available next year. He looked it up sitting right there on his clipboard, so he spoke with great authority. He also appeared to be timing pitches to the plate with his stopwatch -- is that actually something you can usefully do as a human being?
2005-09-30 11:19:15
41.   Howard Fox
38 owning prime real estate in the heart of Boston and in the heart of Los Angeles...

owning one of the most marketable and hig profile sports franchises in one of the two largest markets in the US...

yeah, those McCourts don't know what they are doing...

2005-09-30 11:20:44
42.   SMY
41 -- I'm not disagreeing, just saying that if there's that much money to be made in owning parking lots, I'm clearly in the wrong business.
2005-09-30 11:21:17
43.   Bob Timmermann
In Simers lunch with Jamie McCourt, Mrs. McCourt said that the Dodgers were turning a profit this year. Which is no mean feat with the team they trotted out this year. And she actually admitted to it, unlike most baseball executives who would have you believe that their teams always on the brink of insolvency.
2005-09-30 11:21:49
44.   Howard Fox
42 you can never go wrong in real estate...and parking lots are a cash business to boot
2005-09-30 11:24:27
45.   sanchez101
35. I dont understand why Matsui would be a free agent. He only been in the majors for three years. Wouldnt he be eligible for arbitration? I would assume that the yankees control him for the next three years.
2005-09-30 11:24:53
46.   Bob Timmermann
42

I researched the parking industry for someone once and I was amazed at how lucrative the business is. Parking lots don't have much overhead, they tend to be in areas where property values are high, and the market in some places is inelastic to a certain extent.

2005-09-30 11:27:28
47.   Jon Weisman
43 - Well, the profit test will be next year. The 2005 ticket sales are 2004 winners' residue, as the no-shows indicate.
2005-09-30 11:29:59
48.   jasonungar05
32.

"We gave him a two-year deal for a reason,"

maybe, just maybe, thats the reason.

2005-09-30 11:30:18
49.   Marty
46 That's why they paved paradise.
2005-09-30 11:30:57
50.   Sam DC
"winners' residue" or "winners residue"? Inquiring minds want to know. And where does that darn question mark belong?

:)

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-09-30 11:31:26
51.   Marty
If Tracy wants the number 16 so bad he can always have it tattooed on
2005-09-30 11:34:34
52.   Jon Weisman
I have to admit that last night I had a dream (not a wish, just a dream) that Ron Washington was named the Dodgers manager for 2006.

There's something in my mind that makes me think Orel Hershiser is a leading candidate to end up with the job, though again, I have no idea if he is truly qualified. A Dodger hero certainly would be a more popular choice than a Moneyball coach (albeit an obscure but memorable Dodger) who for that matter I still recall from the book being resistant to the Beane philosophy.

I am completely fine with DePodesta surprising us with a pet, off-the-radar choice who gets what DePo is trying to do.

2005-09-30 11:35:07
53.   Jon Weisman
50 - I knew that was coming :)
2005-09-30 11:38:10
54.   Bob Timmermann
As I mentioned in the previous thread, the Dodgers could take advantage of the Angels appearance in the playoffs (which could very well start on the road) and have much of the Southern California baseball intelligentsia out of the area.

The Angels are likely to be playing in a place like Chicago and the Padres will be out in St. Louis.

2005-09-30 11:38:32
55.   Eric Enders
FWIW, I got the free agent info from this site:

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/06/possible-free-agent-position-players.html

You can judge its credibility on Matsui (or lack thereof) for yourself.

2005-09-30 11:41:32
56.   Howard Fox
52 and Ron Washington is from where?
2005-09-30 11:41:52
57.   Fallout
It's the intent that counts..and I agree with Ron. Although in LA 2M would probably come out to watch even a last place team. Well, not maybe come out but tickets sold.
2005-09-30 11:42:25
58.   Howard Fox
I could see Orel being offered the Pitching Coach position, but not the manager spot.
2005-09-30 11:42:26
59.   Sam DC
55 Thanks Eric. That sounds suspiciously like work, though.
2005-09-30 11:42:55
60.   Howard Fox
57 make that 3M
2005-09-30 11:44:59
61.   Jon Weisman
56 - He's an Oakland coach.
2005-09-30 11:45:37
62.   LAT
22. I have spoken to two people who work for the Dodgers and the son of a third. They all say the culture has changed. This ownership has little regard for long time employess and are cutting employee benifits left and right. Is that a bad thing for a business, and this is a business, I don't know. Depends on the needs and goals of the organization.

As for Howard's staements in 41, I think Frank is a weenie but not only does he know what he's doing, he is doing it with OPM (other prople's money) and that makes him even smarter.

Finally, I agree with a lot of what's been said as to Tracy's mistakes this season, but I will cut him some slack on this mornings commetns. I'm guessing (pure speculation)in the last day or two he was told that he will not be given an extension and will indeed be let go. Most of us would be angry under those circumstances as well.

2005-09-30 11:48:38
63.   Sam DC
23 And I think Preston Wilson is available too. He's likely to break 90 RBIs this year.
2005-09-30 11:48:45
64.   blue22
Matsui has an odd contract. It states that the Yankees have a certain amount of time to offer an extension, after which Matsui goes on waivers.

This is where it gets cloudy, b/c I'm not sure if the team that submits the appropriate waiver claim gets full rights to him, or if the Yankees can pull him back from waivers and negotiate a trade (as is the case in August waiver trades).

Seattle currently has a worse record than the Dodgers, so if normal waiver rules apply, they would seem to have the upper hand if it comes to that.

Of course, he could always split back to Japan, I assume.

2005-09-30 11:50:06
65.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I'm guessing (pure speculation)in the last day or two he was told that he will not be given an extension and will indeed be let go. Most of us would be angry under those circumstances as well.

But it didn't have to be that way. All Jim had to do was shoulder some of the blame, at least think about buying what PDP was selling and, for God's sake, remain positive.
Instead, he's taking the sourball route. And for that, I refuse to cut this sourball any slack.

2005-09-30 11:50:26
66.   Howard Fox
62 a weenie how poetic...

I have news for you, yes the culture has changed, yes benefits are reduced and higher priced employees are replaced by lower priced doing the same job...

it happens to have changed in virtually all companies that remain or become profitable...its called not giving away the store...

2005-09-30 11:52:16
67.   Telemachos
62 But even if he's not given the extension, the Dodgers can't just "let him go" without officially firing him and owing him next year's contract.

The opt-out clause is his, not the other way around.

2005-09-30 11:53:30
68.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
65 - Suddenly, I have a craving for lemon sours.
2005-09-30 11:54:12
69.   Howard Fox
67 its called letting someone go and giving him his remaining 2 weeks in advance and telling him not to bother coming in during that time
2005-09-30 11:56:18
70.   molokai
61
Plus he does have Dodger roots as he played his 1st major league season with us in 1977. Let us hope that he manages better then he played as his career OBP was < 300. If he wasn't tied to Oakland would we even be bringing up his name?
2005-09-30 11:56:25
71.   werthgagne31
I just looked at the career stats of all the free agent starting pitchers, and all i could find that will be worth going after if the price is right are millwood, morris, lilly, burnett, washburn.
There were guys with good career stats that were just too old for example al leiter.
I believe we need 2 starting pitchers.
I don't want to rush billingsley, i'm not comfortable with houlton, and something is wrong with jackson and he's not ready, and obviously weaver is gone.

What would the price tag be on millwood, morris, washburn, burnett, lilly?

2005-09-30 11:57:39
72.   blue22
69 - With the Cincy job gone, I think Tracy might be a little concerned about finding work next year.

If he opts out, but doesn't get any of the available jobs (a distinct possibility now), he's got nothing.

If he passes on the opt-out, but is instead fired, he collects on his salary.

I think he sees the writing on the wall, and is probably a little frustrated in his current situation. I wonder if he really did want that Cincy job, but was unable to talk with them about since he was under contract with LA still.

2005-09-30 11:59:06
73.   dzzrtRatt
"...his thick-headedness is amazing"

One aspect of any organization and many leaders is their propensity to let their egos destroy their good judgement. Feminists call it "testosterone poisoning" but women are just as prone to it in my experience.

Tracy was a pretty good manager in the beginning, but I think he got used to the press adulation, noticed the press criticism thrown both DePo and Evans' way for not getting the right players here and began to overplay his hand. The press didn't blast him, so he kept doubling down. If Tracy were to log onto DT right now and see all this withering, detailed criticism, especially Jon's post of pure controlled rage, I think he'd be shocked.

Jim Tracy probably rolled over in bed this morning and said to his wife, "Am I going to get the extension I demanded? Honey, it's a stone-cold lock. The press is working with me on this, and I've backed Paulie into a corner. Call our realtor." Boy is he in for a shock, the kind of shock only the thick-headed can experience.

2005-09-30 12:02:07
74.   Bob Timmermann
Weren't the Yankees catching some flak for cutting back on benefits to their employees? I think they got rid of dental.

Or maybe that was the Springfield Nuclear Power Plant.

2005-09-30 12:03:24
75.   LAT
66. I know Howard, I said it may not be a bad thing. Depends on the organization.

As for Frank being a weenie, I would have been more poetic but Jon doesn't let us use such language.

2005-09-30 12:04:30
76.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
74 - "Dental plan!"
"Lisa needs braces."
"Dental plan!"
"Lisa needs braces."
2005-09-30 12:07:35
77.   dzzrtRatt
While I agree that all organizations are downsizing and trying to be more efficient to squeeze out the most profit possible, the Dodgers did make a huge blunder letting go of Kris Rone and Bob Graziano. They were talented and quite successful at building the team's revenue and fan base. The high attendance levels of 2005 are partly their legacy. I have little confidence in the spawn or sleeping partners of the boss, any boss. Sumner Redstone is handing over some of his assets to his wife to manage, and that is distressing his stockholders. We saw how well it worked out for Bill Clinton. It's just not good business to shove loyal, brilliant and hardworking people out the door, and then say "after an exhaustive search, I'm hiring my wife and son."
2005-09-30 12:09:03
78.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
We saw how well it worked out for Bill Clinton.
In 3-1/2 years, we may see how well is works out for Hillary.
2005-09-30 12:09:22
79.   Bob Timmermann
77

You should ask Walter O'Malley how come he eased out Buzzie Bavasi from running the team so he could have his son do it.

2005-09-30 12:09:40
80.   Jon Weisman
77 - You mean Buckingham Palace and the Pharaohs have it all wrong?
2005-09-30 12:11:26
81.   gcrl
the idea of buying a parking lot was the basis for the movie "fargo". good ol' jerry lundegard knew his business opportunities.
2005-09-30 12:13:59
82.   Howard Fox
77 who you hire is fully your decision if you own the company

if you are an investor and don't like it, don't invest in it

the high attendance levels are because in 2004 the Dodgers won and went to the playoffs and even won a game after years of absence...

2005-09-30 12:15:55
83.   gcrl
i'm not sure how i feel about orel being the manager. it's tough to promote or bring an icon back to the fold, and then have to cast them away at some point (see russell, bill and trammell, alan).

that's why i was originally happy about jim tracy being hired.

i wouldn't be opposed to giving davey lopes another shot, though.

2005-09-30 12:18:14
84.   Howard Fox
83 I agree, Davey Lopes I would like to see
2005-09-30 12:20:34
85.   Bob Timmermann
84
If Davey Lopes were managing the Dodgers next year, the complaints would be even greater next year. There would be even more CS, busted bunt plays and hit and runs, and lineup construction based on mid 1970s ideas.
2005-09-30 12:21:30
86.   dzzrtRatt
79 Was Peter O'Malley really that great as an owner? The Dodgers had enough gas in the tank after his father died to succeed for awhile, but the story of Peter backing off the NFL bid just because the politicians in LA wanted him to bow down to the Coliseum stands in stark contrast to how Walter would've handled it. I wouldn't trust Walter with my kids the way I might trust Peter, but Peter was not a decisive leader. Plus, his legacy is tarnished by selling the team to Fox.

80 It eventually all comes down to too much inbreeding.

2005-09-30 12:21:31
87.   Adam M
72 - Yes
73 - No

Not talking about ballot initiatives, people. It cannot be a coinkydink that the Rehire Tracy movement was fueled by these rumors of Cincy being hot to hire him, and Tracy played along beautifully. Then suddenly when the Reds rehire Jerry Narron and those rumors evaporate, Tracy loses all his leverage and Good Soldier Jim becomes The Fragmaster. You don't have enough talent to be successful, Jim? Enjoy managing in Pittsburgh, if you can beat out Dale Sveum. Or else enjoy your tearful reunion with Sisyphus Lo Duca, if they decide to hire you over Lou Piniella.

77 - Handing critical aspects of the business to family? That's certainly not how Walter O'Malley did things!

81 - If you want to wield power and influence in Los Angeles, being a parking lot magnate is not a bad way to do so.

2005-09-30 12:21:43
88.   Howard Fox
85 but it would take the pressure off DePo's building for 2007...
2005-09-30 12:21:55
89.   LAT
81. Frank probably has a woodchipper in his office in case someone gets out of line.
2005-09-30 12:22:08
90.   oldbear
I cant see Tracy getting a job. Last year his stock was as high as its gonna get and he didnt get any offers. Why this year?

I agree with Jon that to say this team when healthy didnt have the talent to win 90 games in the NL West is laughable. Comments from Buntermaker that pretty much assure he's a goner.

I thought last nite was sort of symbolic. Last home game at Dodger stadium. DePo, McCourt in their box with Tracy in the dugout. Choi is double switched out of the game in the 5th inning. Antonio Perez doesnt even play. All of this during a meaningless game.

And to think DePo was quoted as saying he had TWO different meeting with Trace regarding getting AP, and Choi playing time.

Dont see Tracy managing anywhere next year. And I dont see him having enough personality to get a broadcasting job either.

Adios Jim.

2005-09-30 12:25:11
91.   Fan since 59
Given my druthers I would rather see Depo go and Tracy stay, but I think Tracy's comments today in the Times were his way of opting out of the final year of his contract. Depo and Tracy don't see eye-to-eye in how a club should be run. Depo has three years left , Tracy has one. Bye-bye, Jim. Which is too bad because Tracy has done a good job since he got here. Considering he was originally stuck with the leftovers of the Kevin Malone regime (Kevin Brown, Darren Dreifort, etc.). No matter your thoughts on Tracy him pulling the team together after Aug. 1, 2004, whenDepo blew it up has to be lauded. But let's look at what Depo has done (is doing) with this team. He's letting the team's best starter, Jeff Weaver, probably leave. He wants Hee Sop Choi to be the every-day first baseman. He wants a guy that can't field (Antonio Perez) somewhere in the lineup.
He let Beltre and Finley go last year, not to mention LoDuca, with nobody really to take their places. You can argue J.D. Drew replaced Finley, but even with the numbers Finley has put up this year in Anaheim, we still would have got more bang for our buck from Finley. And we have Drew for four more years. Does anyone really think he will opt out of his contract next year, considering his injury history? Can you say Darren Driefort II?
As for who will replace Tracy? It won't be a big name because McCourt won't pay for a big name and Depo doesn't want the competition. Terry Collins might be considered. He's still in the organization and knows the young kids who will be here in a couple of years. As for Ron Washington, if memory serves me right he was a minor leaguer in the Dodgers' system around the time Kevin Kennedy was before he made it to the majors with the Twins. He wouldn't command a salary of more then $500,000 or $600,000 so he might be a candidate, too. Whoever it is, it better be someone on the same page Depo is on, because that obviously has been the problem this year. We had a manager who liked to play little ball (he didn't have a whole lot of other choices) and a GM who wants to play for the three-run home run.
2005-09-30 12:25:22
92.   dzzrtRatt
I think the Ron Washington idea is the best. I also kind of like the idea of Jerry Royster.

I'd be hesitant on Orel. As pitching coach in Texas, I'm not sure he's got anything to point to as a track record, yet. If Colborn quits, we could try him as pitching coach, but not manager.

Lopes would be like Tracy but with even more press support.

2005-09-30 12:25:46
93.   Howard Fox
90 maybe he can go back to being a detective...oh, that was Dick Tracy...sorry...
2005-09-30 12:25:58
94.   oldbear
81. My gut feeling is Jim Tracy goes to San Francisco and reunites with old manager Felipe Alou. He assumes Giants bench coaching duties.. whatever that means.
2005-09-30 12:26:19
95.   SMY
I agree with 85. Why Davey Lopes? His winning percentage as a manager was .425. Admittedly with the Brewers, but I don't remember seeing anything terribly inspiring about him, even when he was a coach with the Padres. Other than he is "fiery," I guess.
2005-09-30 12:27:53
96.   Adam M
Is this an example of the Peter Principle? ;)

"the story of Peter backing off the NFL bid just because the politicians in LA wanted him to bow down to the Coliseum stands in stark contrast to how Walter would've handled it."

Is it? Walter O'Malley moved the team from Brooklyn rather than fight the city fathers to get the stadium site he wanted. That's a kind of caving, no?

2005-09-30 12:29:06
97.   oldbear
92. i like Orel Hershiser because simply to me, all a manager needs to do is follow the instructions laid out by the GM. Put out the proper lineup, and just sit there.

Now a manager's "job" is more public relations and being a figure head. What better figure head than Orel Hershiser, especially coming off a Dodger season filled with turmoil in the press...

I think DePo recognizes that a baseball manager can really only hurt, not really help. I mean, conceivably he could get any robot to do the job. However, he also knows that the baseball manager is often the face of the franchise.

And what better choice than Orel Hershiser?

2005-09-30 12:30:08
98.   Jon Weisman
94 - Wow, your local columnists would be salivating over that ...
2005-09-30 12:32:39
99.   dzzrtRatt
96 Not at all. Robert Moses out and out blocked O'Malley from getting the site he wanted (that site is still vacant, by the way). O'Malley had the California card in his back pocket, and rather than cave into Moses, who wanted the Dodgers to move the current Shea Stadium site, he played it. He even managed to convince the compliant Horace Stoneham to come along! Then he got the city and county to give him, for free, an incredibly valuable piece of land that had been condemned and razed for a public housing project. And, by the way, saw to it that the LA fans got three world championships in the team's first eight years. They only won one in all the time they were in Brooklyn!

Walter O'Malley was one of a kind. He'd probably be in prison if he operated today.

2005-09-30 12:33:22
100.   Bob Timmermann
So Ron Wotus is going out the door in San Francisco?
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-09-30 12:33:42
101.   Jon Weisman
99 - Isn't that the site where the Brooklyn Nets will be playing hoops soon?
2005-09-30 12:33:50
102.   Adam M
97 - DePo should avoid firing or gold Rolex-ing Tracy if at all possible. Jim Hahn fired the thoroughly mediocre Bernard Parks and replaced him with maybe the best police chief in US history, and Hahn's reward was getting shitcanned by the voters. It's not enough to replace an OK guy with a fantastic guy, you have to look good doing it.
2005-09-30 12:34:11
103.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers didn't get Chavez Ravine for free. They traded the "valuable" property at Wrigley Field for it.
2005-09-30 12:34:13
104.   Icaros
Buckingham Palace and the Pharaohs

Great band, love their second album.

2005-09-30 12:34:28
105.   dzzrtRatt
97 well, the choice of Hershiser were certainly stun the Plaschkes of this city into silence, probably for a year. I'd just be nervous--what if he stunk up the joint? I'd like Orel's untarnished crown to remain that way until I'm sure he'll succeed.
2005-09-30 12:34:39
106.   Howard Fox
Walter O'Malley was one of a kind. He'd probably be in prison if he operated today.

...ahh, the good old days...

2005-09-30 12:35:17
107.   Jon Weisman
100 - Potus is President of the United States. What is Wotus?
2005-09-30 12:36:01
108.   oldschool62
My vote for the next Dodger manager Steve Yeager.
2005-09-30 12:36:47
109.   Howard Fox
105 nothing would stun the Plaschkes of this city into silence
2005-09-30 12:37:12
110.   Bob Timmermann
Sorry, Hershiser flunks the character test. Who was the pitching coach of Texas when Frank Francisco threw a chair into the crowd in Oakland? Orel Hershiser.

Therefore, he cannot control his players. And he must be cast out to the hinterlands.

2005-09-30 12:37:30
111.   dzzrtRatt
103 Isn't the Wrigley field site now Pan Pacific Park? Or the "Bicentenniel" post office next to it?

Probably the value of Chavez Ravine is more than that site by a factor of 10,000. As you know, but maybe others here would not.

2005-09-30 12:38:09
112.   Bob Timmermann
Wrigley Field is now Gilbert Lindsay Park. It's near Jefferson High.
2005-09-30 12:38:43
113.   Howard Fox
108 Steve Yeager?? Why?? Cause all former Dodger catchers who live in the Conejo Valley make good managers??
2005-09-30 12:39:10
114.   dzzrtRatt
112 Oh right. The Pan Pacific site is where the Hollywood Stars had their ballpark. I got mixed up.
2005-09-30 12:40:17
115.   LAT
98. Forget your local columnists, this group here would burn him in effigy. Bad managing is one thing but going to coach the Giants is another.

Actually on second thought, most here would wish JT on the Giants.

2005-09-30 12:42:14
116.   Adam M
99 - You've got to admit, there's a bit of "I'll just take my ball and go home" to it (not that I'm complaining about the result). But it is insanely difficult to get a project like that done in New York if the right politician opposes you. Bloomberg tried to gets a Jets stadium built in Manhattan, which was the missing piece in their Olympic bid, and got stone c*ckblocked because one of the 3 legislators who run Albany didn't like the idea. Ironically, the guy represented Manhattan.

101 - Yes, I think it's roughly the same parcel.

2005-09-30 12:43:19
117.   blue22
115 - The triumverate of Sabean, Alou, and Tracy would guarantee that mediocre, aging veterans would always have a home.
2005-09-30 12:43:43
118.   Bob Timmermann
Actually Gilmore Field is now the site of a TV studio on the CBS lot.
2005-09-30 12:45:18
119.   Adam M
So nobody's going to respond to 91-, I see?
2005-09-30 12:47:33
120.   Bob Timmermann
91

The Dodgers are much better off with JD Drew than Steve Finley.

Q. What's worse than a half season of J.D. Drew?
A. Two full seasons of Steve Finley.

2005-09-30 12:48:25
121.   Icaros
119 We've been responding to 91 for over a year now. That poster can read the archives. I'm tired.
2005-09-30 12:48:43
122.   werthgagne31
Anyone want to give me an opinion on what kevin millwood, jarod washburn, matt morris, ted lilly would demand in free agency.
And if we could afford 2 of them.
2005-09-30 12:50:06
123.   Eric L
121

Thanks for saying it better than I could Icaros.

Though I do have to take the poster to task for saying that Weaver was the Dodgers best starter. Except for wins, there is no way that Weaver measures up to Penny or Lowe this season.

2005-09-30 12:50:46
124.   Icaros
122 My guess would be a lot more than any of them are worth. We could probably afford two of them, but that may not be a good thing.
2005-09-30 12:53:06
125.   Icaros
123 Yeah, the Weaver as best starter line hurts a person's credibility.
2005-09-30 12:53:43
126.   blue22
Millwood and Morris both took 1-yr deals due to injury concerns. Both have proven they are healthy (for now) and productive, and should command multi-year deals now (Millwood should command more per year, though the value is dependant on how crazy the market gets).

Washburn and Lilly are both lefties that will get multi-year deals from someone. I think they could both be good pickups as I doubt they will command the amount of money that Millwood and Morris will.

Burnett is going to hold someone hostage for a 4yr/$50M-ish deal. Have fun with that.

Out of the lot, I'd stay away from all of them, with the exception of Lilly who could be a good risk if the price is right.

2005-09-30 12:53:57
127.   werthgagne31
124
Even with the fact that both odalis perez and derrik lowe are going to be in their final contract years in 2007, which means they would probably be easy to get rid of thru a trade after next season.
Allowing billingsley to be a starter for us in 2007.
2005-09-30 12:54:40
128.   dzzrtRatt
122 I saw speculation that AJ Burnett is expecting a 4-year, $48 million contract. If that's the case, I consulted the nearest hat and came up with this:

Millwood -- $9 million
Washburn -- $9 million
Morris -- $11 million
Lilly -- $7 million

I'd be interested in Washburn, but not at that price. Morris, ditto. I don't think Millwood is the way to go, and Lilly's level of quality we could replace from within.

2005-09-30 12:56:19
129.   blue22
127 - Penny and Lowe are signed through '08. Perez only has an option for '08.
2005-09-30 12:56:49
130.   Jacob L
I remember the first JT interview I ever heard during 02 Spring Training. I thought, wow, this guy can really express thoughts clearly. I guess the bar had been set pretty low by an obviously sedated Davey Johnson.

JT's love of the rhetorical question reminds of the basketball coach from my high school. Stone faced teenagers would sit in the locker room at half time while he said, "In the second half we're going to have to do a better job of putting the ball in the what? Basket."

2005-09-30 12:57:10
131.   werthgagne31
128
That's what i was looking for, thanks for the opinion/post.
2005-09-30 12:57:12
132.   dzzrtRatt
Just got an e-mail. Adrian Beltre and the Seattle Mariners are coming to Dodger Stadium June 20-22.
2005-09-30 12:58:55
133.   blue22
128 - I'd say you are either over-valueing Wasburn and Morris, or under-valueing Millwood.
2005-09-30 12:58:58
134.   Howard Fox
132....and???
2005-09-30 12:59:00
135.   Borchard504
Managerial succession? Lou Piniella, I am telling ya. Would McCourt pay? Could DePo coexist? Probably not, and maybe.
2005-09-30 13:02:13
136.   Bob Timmermann
In troubled times like this, I rely on the wisdom of my father (who passed away 3 years ago today).

"Son, one of the most important things you can buy in your lifetime is a good vacuum cleaner."

2005-09-30 13:03:13
137.   Howard Fox
136 or there is always, "this is shit, this is shinola"
2005-09-30 13:03:55
138.   Monterey Chris
I see MLB got creative with the schedule for next year. Opening Day against Atlanta. And our final home games against the Giants are in August.
2005-09-30 13:05:15
139.   Bob Timmermann
137

Once in the backroom of my father's store in North Hollywood, I found out that he had a container of Shinola.

It was next to the toilet.

I knew the difference.

2005-09-30 13:05:50
140.   werthgagne31
129
You're right about lowe being signed thru 2008 (i just looked it up), i thought it was thru 2007, my fault.
2005-09-30 13:06:28
141.   blue22
138 - What happened to "unbalanced"?
2005-09-30 13:06:48
142.   Howard Fox
139 you were wise beyond your years
2005-09-30 13:08:14
143.   Bob Timmermann
At least one team in the NL West has to be playing outside the division at the end of the year.

5 is not evenly divisble by 2 in a base 10 system.

So it's the Dodgers turn to be the odd team out.

2005-09-30 13:11:07
144.   Marty
I can't see Yeager as manager. He'd be too busy ducking all the sawed off bats flying around.
2005-09-30 13:11:22
145.   dzzrtRatt
134 and...uh, nothing, I guess. I don't have anything to say about it. Beltre's coming back to Dodger Stadium. Whee.

Man, you caught me. I posted information, but didn't have a take. I'll have to go on retreat for awhile.

2005-09-30 13:11:57
146.   Adam M
On pitching, one intereesting NRI possibility is that the Mariners are showing Ryan Franklin the door.

Pluses:
*Throws four pitches - granted, not all are out pitches, but it give you something to work with.
*When on, has a knack for "pitching to contact" and keeping the ball in play, think "Derek Lowe light." Might do better with Jeff Kent/Robles behind him instead of Bret Boone/Mike Morse.
*Still young.

Minuses:
*Terrible ERA this year.
*Inexplicably busted for steroids - he is most definitely not a power pitcher.
*Very low strikeout rates, and set a record for HBPs this year.
*Raise your hand anyone who has a positive reaction to the phrase "Derek Lowe Light."

I am firmly convinced that championship teams need an innings-eater, and Franklin could be that guy very affordably. They can also keep him on a very short leash and nobody will think twice if he doesn't make it out of spring training.

2005-09-30 13:14:36
147.   molokai
If Depo was to hire Lopes as our next manager I would be the first person off the Depo bandwagon. If you want someone from the glorified infield then take Ron Cey who actually implmented the whole slug/ob% mentality when he played. Not that I'd want Cey as a manager just that I really really dislike Davy Lopes.

121 Weaver had a higher k/9 and a lower bb/9 and a lower h/9 then Penny. To bad for Weaver he also talked Tracy into letting him pitch to one batter to many and thus his hr/9 ratio is the big problem. He should head back to Detroit which could use his service and might overpay him for the honor.

2005-09-30 13:14:48
148.   LAT
136. Bob, your Dad's advice is especially sage for someone with a sickly cat.

I have friend who's father died 18 years ago and every anniversary we go drinking in his fathers honor. So have a beer and vacume the apartment for your father today.

2005-09-30 13:18:19
149.   Howard Fox
146 sounds kind of like "honey, we are lost, but we are making very good time"
2005-09-30 13:19:00
150.   Fallout
120. Bob Timmermann

Neither one is a good choice.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-09-30 13:19:31
151.   Adam M
FWIW, Bill Simmons finally wrote a piece on "Why the Red Sox would be better if Bill Belichick were running the team." Yes, he was dead-serious. I will now vomit into my socks.
2005-09-30 13:19:48
152.   Howard Fox
147 and further, Cey has a better nickname
2005-09-30 13:20:12
153.   Bob Timmermann
Ryan Franklin would flunk the character test because of the steroids test.

He also isn't very good.

And he likes to blame his fielders for giving up runs.

He's Scott Erickson on steroids.
Not a pretty picture.

2005-09-30 13:20:18
154.   Howard Fox
151 remind me never to borrow socks from you
2005-09-30 13:20:49
155.   Howard Fox
153 yes, but what does his wife look like
2005-09-30 13:21:43
156.   gcrl
143 - dodgers do finish within the division (at san fran), they just don't play the gnats at home in september.
2005-09-30 13:24:51
157.   molokai
Ryan Franklin-doesn't this team already have enough soft tossers? Even our hard tossers can't strike anyone out. Our strke out rate is terrible.
From the roster that was available on Aug 31st not one pitcher had a K/9 ratio higher then 7.66. Our starting pitching has the following ratio's:
6.26 / 6.31 / 6.01 / 6.31 / 6.13
Only Sanchez at 7.66 and Yhency of 7.62 had rates higher then 7.0.

Since Sept we've added Kuo at 16.20 and Broxton at 16.20. Super small sample size but at least the minor league numbers for them project them to big time strikeout pitchers.

Dominance baby, I want some dominance, not some pansy ass change up throwing Seattle reject. JMO

2005-09-30 13:25:11
158.   gcrl
152 - i always liked garvey's "popeye" moniker, but i don't think it was as universally applied as the "penguin" was. did bill russell have a nickname? and was it "e-6"?
2005-09-30 13:27:08
159.   werthgagne31
I think we really need 2 starting pitchers.
And i would rather overpay than give up something good to get something good (trade).
With our bullpen next year looking to be mainly young inexperienced guys (exceptions gagne and dessens) i think we really need to shore up our starting pitching.
I think penny,lowe,perez are fine, but then there are 2 question marks, and i do not believe a 5th starter should just be someone who can go 5 innings and keep us in the game by giving up 4 or 5 runs in 5 innings consistantly, which is what houlton and jackson are, especially with a young inexperienced bullpen.
We have to get 2 starting pitchers.
2005-09-30 13:29:12
160.   Fallout
158. gcrl

was it "e-6"? I think so. I Dodgers are coming out with a Bill Russell bobble hands doll.

2005-09-30 13:30:30
161.   Howard Fox
157 yes, but how do you think Franklin would fit on our team?
2005-09-30 13:31:20
162.   Howard Fox
158 I believe Russell's nickname was Bill, but I could be wrong...
2005-09-30 13:32:58
163.   Howard Fox
159 I believe Perez makes it 3 question marks...

now will someone tell me what happened to the Mysterions?

2005-09-30 13:33:49
164.   Bob Timmermann
Bill Russell didn't have Offerman-like error totals. He just didn't have a lot of range.
2005-09-30 13:34:05
165.   Adam M
"he likes to blame his fielders for giving up runs."

Wow - he really is Derek Lowe Light, then - that was the rap on Lowe in Boston. Granted, with some of those fielders, who could blame him? Watching Manny Ramirez field is like watching Tara Reid complete a sentence.

Even though Franklin seems to have locked up the lead balloon award today, mark my words, people: he is zero-risk, middling reward!

2005-09-30 13:35:02
166.   werthgagne31
163
if perez can stay healthy he's a pretty good pitcher.
2005-09-30 13:35:31
167.   molokai
163
I still have that 45, do you think it is worth anything?
2005-09-30 13:35:58
168.   Icaros
Watching Manny Ramirez field is like watching Tara Reid complete a sentence.

Wouldn't Manny Ramirez trying to complete a sentence be just as bad as Tara Reid?

2005-09-30 13:36:07
169.   Adam M
163 - ? and the Mysterians reformed and did a tour a few years back. ? appeared to have gone round every possible bend.
2005-09-30 13:36:31
170.   Marty
Russell didn't have a lot of personality either. He makes Tracy seem like Johnny Carson.
2005-09-30 13:37:19
171.   Howard Fox
168 just as bad as Tara Reid trying to field...

by the way, who is Tara Reid?

2005-09-30 13:37:28
172.   Marty
Tara Reid was OK in the Big Lebowski. I can't repeat her best line :)
2005-09-30 13:38:16
173.   Howard Fox
if its a 45 vinyl record, yes...if its a 45 dodger shirt, probably not what you paid for it
2005-09-30 13:39:07
174.   Howard Fox
170 now? or when he was alive?
2005-09-30 13:39:08
175.   molokai
165
He had the best fielding tandem in the AL with Betancourt and Beltre and he still managed to be awful. I'd rather try to get Rafael Soriano but then who wouldn't and even Bavasi won't be stupid enough to part with him.
2005-09-30 13:40:40
176.   Fallout
If the Dodgers made an Offerman bobble head doll it would not have any hands.
2005-09-30 13:41:47
177.   Icaros
Imagine what Tara Reid will look like in twenty years...if she's still alive.
2005-09-30 13:42:27
178.   Bob Timmermann
The beauty of a Jose Offerman bobblehead or an Oscar Robles bobblehead is that neither could be stolen.
2005-09-30 13:42:55
179.   Howard Fox
177 no thanks...I have a hard enough time imagining what I will look like in 20 years...
2005-09-30 13:43:19
180.   Linkmeister
What was the problem with Russell? I never thought he got a really fair shot, but I was out here dodging hurricanes, so I wasn't clued in to the local scuttlebutt.
2005-09-30 13:43:29
181.   Howard Fox
178 but you can throw them out
2005-09-30 13:43:52
182.   Marty
What I'm afraid of is that I'll look like Johnny Carson in 20 years.
2005-09-30 13:44:02
183.   molokai
176 My least favorite Dodger because I had HOF hopes for him and he failed me so miserably. His AA baseball card is now only used for the points of my darts.
2005-09-30 13:44:21
184.   Bob Timmermann
Tara Reid will be 50 years old in 20 years. I'm trying to think of actresses who come to mind who are about that age.

Sela Ward is 49.

I can only think of people who have names that consist of 8 letters.

2005-09-30 13:46:04
185.   Adam M
Hey now - Betancourt is a dynamite fielder, but they only played him the last 2 months. Morse played more games at short, and Wilson Valdez played almost as many as Betancourt. And Boonie was terrible at second for most of this year. Man did that guy hit the wall.

Anyways, I stand by my prediction: minimal-risk, fair-to-middlin' reward. At worst, he's Scott Erickson, at best, Aaron Sele. Get in on the ground floor, or in this case, the sub-basement.

2005-09-30 13:47:31
186.   Bob Timmermann
The positive steroid test is going stamp "Pariah" on Ryan Franklin's dossier for the rest of his career I think.
2005-09-30 13:47:40
187.   popup
Remembering Sandy:

Sandy Koufax made his third major league appearance and his first major league start on July 6, 1955 against the Pirates in the second game of a doubleheader. Brooklyn won the first game 10-5, but lost the nitecap 4-1, with Sandy getting a no decision.

Sandy was wild but somewhat effective. Through four scoreless innings he gave up only 1 hit but issued 5 walks. In the Pirate 5th, he yielded an RBI single for the first run scored against him in his major league career. When Sandy fell behind in the count to Gene Freese, Walt Alston lifted him.

In his first start Sandy struck out 4, gave up 8 walks, and allowed 1 earned run in 4 2/3 innings. He would do better than that in the future-- much better.

Thanks to retrosheet and Koufax, written by Sandy and Ed Linn.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-09-30 13:47:49
188.   oldbear
172. Is American Pie not one of the most overrated movies of all time?

Dazed and Confused, along with Fast Times at Ridgemont High are so much better.

"Wow... he goes here. I thought he only flew in for games"

2005-09-30 13:48:07
189.   Fallout
180. Linkmeister

Mostly an erratic arm.

2005-09-30 13:48:28
190.   Linkmeister
Funny Chief Justice-as-umpire article from Charlie Pierce:

http://www.prospect.org/web/view-web.ww?id=10364

MPAA rating "L" for language (*), "V" for violence (cap brim-bumping).

2005-09-30 13:48:41
191.   Icaros
I think I'd run Marty out to the mound before a guy whose ceiling is Aaron Sele.
2005-09-30 13:49:34
192.   Marty
I refuse to see American Pie. And I like Eugene Levy.
2005-09-30 13:50:24
193.   Marty
My ceiling is closer To Jose Lima version 2005
2005-09-30 13:50:45
194.   Linkmeister
189 Well, that's responsive as far as his playing days, but... and if it's a managerial requirement, we could hire Sax or Knoblauch.

Bob, Tara Reid should be so lucky as to look as good as Sela Ward does at the same age.

2005-09-30 13:51:56
195.   Icaros
192 I used to share that boycott. Then I was bored one night while house sitting in Oregon and watched it. Not too bad. I'm sure the local plant life helped with the humor a bit.
2005-09-30 13:52:31
196.   dzzrtRatt
159 Werthgagne...

Sure we need two more pitchers. But we're reaching the point where signing a FA or taking on a veteran in a trade has to be balanced against the opportunity cost of closing a lane of advancement for one of our rookies. If we pay for a Millwood (or another year or four of Weaver), there's no question that, year one, he'd probably pitch better than Houlton, Thompson, Jackson, Billingsley, et. al. could. But if they never get to pitch, we'll never find out how good they can be. If you're paying $10 million for a Weaver, Millwood, Morris type, you know you're paying for more than one year, and you aren't going to bench them unless they really stink.

For 2006, a rotation of three veterans, Penny, Lowe, Odalis Perez and then some combination of two of our up-and-comers might not look like a lock to win the division, but it's a healthy balance that will help the team compete in the long run.

2005-09-30 13:52:57
197.   jasonungar05
You gotta love wooderson in Dazed and Confused:

"You ought to ditch the two geeks you're in the car with now and get in with us. But that's alright, we'll worry about that later..."

2005-09-30 13:52:57
198.   Marty
Big Lebowski may be my favorite comedy.

"Dude, I can get you a toe. I can get you a toe by 3:30. With nail polish"

2005-09-30 13:54:46
199.   jasonungar05
Icaros: Say, man, you got a joint?

Jim Tracy: No, not on me, man.

Icaros: It'd be a lot cooler if you did.

2005-09-30 13:55:06
200.   Marty
I one time had to stay up for 30 hours at work. When I got back to my hotel room I was so tired I couldn't go to sleep. So I watched "Cabin Boy". I never laughed so hard. Later, well-rested, I re-watched it and couldn't figure out what I thought was so funny.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-09-30 13:55:41
201.   blue22
196 - I also like the thought of a trade since we have a better chance of getting someone we actually want (not to mention the fact that he'll be signed to an "older" contract, and presumably be making less than the going-market value).

None of the FA pitchers excite me very much, and that's not even considering that whoever we pick stands a good chance of being the highest paid starter on the staff.

2005-09-30 13:56:05
202.   Adam M
188 - Yes. As well as "Most Overrepeated Movie Line Which Needs to Die."
2005-09-30 13:57:03
203.   Icaros
The show "Weeds" stars two of the hottest middle-aged women I've ever seen on TV, Mary-Louise Parker and Elizabeth Perkins.

Perkins looks way better now than she did 17 years ago in "Big."

2005-09-30 13:57:28
204.   gcrl
164/183 - offerman had the perfect nickname: "e-fferman". i remember a post game interview with russell in which he was asked about his ability to draw an error. his response was along the lines of "if they want to give it to me, i'll take it." being a garvey fan, i refused to believe that garvey would deserve any of them, so my response was "darn tootin' you'll take 'em."

i think the worst thing that happened to him was the home run in his first at bat. after that, he seemed to hit everything in the air. sometimes the ball even got to the outfield before it was caught.

2005-09-30 13:57:44
205.   jasonungar05
Tara Reid is pissed. Check it out.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050930/ap_en_mo/people_tara_reid

2005-09-30 13:57:59
206.   Marty
Mary-Louise Parker is middle-aged?
2005-09-30 13:58:11
207.   Bob Timmermann
I refuse to watch "Weeds" unless they change the opening theme song from "Little Boxes" which is a folk song I despise on the level of Frank Robinson X Jim Bowden X Russ Ortiz.
2005-09-30 13:59:00
208.   Adam M
200 - A friend once took a first date to Cabin Boy. That date did not lead to any positive developments of note.
2005-09-30 13:59:07
209.   gcrl
in 204, the second paragraph pertains to offerman. the bill russell part was an add on. apologies...
2005-09-30 13:59:08
210.   Bob Timmermann
Mary-Louise Parker is older than me. And the father of her child dumped while she was pregnant for Clare Danes. Classic mid-life crisis.
2005-09-30 14:00:20
211.   Icaros
200 I think I'm the only person here who can claim to have seen "Cabin Boy" in the theater.

David Letterman was funny in it, but I laugh at anything having to do with monkeys.

2005-09-30 14:01:42
212.   Icaros
206 She's over 40. Doesn't that count as middle-aged?
2005-09-30 14:02:44
213.   blue22
211 - Nice. "Would you like to buy a monkey?" is a classic line.
2005-09-30 14:03:05
214.   Marty
212 I didn't think she was that old. But she's still 8 years younger than me
2005-09-30 14:06:10
215.   Icaros
214 Well, Marty, women in Hollywood are held to a different age standard. They start to become "too old" at around 32.

They're like NFL players.

2005-09-30 14:12:00
216.   regfairfield
204 I prefered "Dropperman"
2005-09-30 14:13:48
217.   Marty
My group of friends called him "Awfulman"
2005-09-30 14:15:08
218.   oldbear
197. Wooderson's best line-- "Awright, awright, awright.....Thats what I love about these high schools girls man...as i get older, they stay....the same age"
2005-09-30 14:15:47
219.   molokai
215Except the legs aren't shot.
2005-09-30 14:17:17
220.   Icaros
219 That depends on the number of carries they get per film.
2005-09-30 14:21:47
221.   Icaros
A friend of mine who works at the St. Francis Hotel in SF has a pretty interesting story about a maid walking in on Matthew McConaughey and a male friend one day.

My favorite McConaughey role is his portrayal of a young man who was murdered on an episode of Unsolved Mysteries.

2005-09-30 14:22:53
222.   oldbear
The best looking middle aged women reside on Desperate Housewives I think.

For over 40, Teri Hatcher looks very nice. And the girl that was dating Tony Parker is just about perfect for any age.

2005-09-30 14:24:37
223.   gcrl
221 - was that the naked bongo playing incident? (my ex used to subscribe to people magazine)
2005-09-30 14:25:59
224.   oldbear
221. McConaughey is a strange bird. Remember a few years ago when he got arrested for marijuana possession while nude playing the bongo drums in his house...?

He wasnt bad in the wedding planner, or that trial based movie he was in that had Sam Jackson in it. CAnt remember the name off hand?

2005-09-30 14:26:11
225.   blue22
Diane Lane is a nice lookin' 40 year old.
2005-09-30 14:27:24
226.   Marty
I'd heard before that McConaughey may be a "Friend of Dorothy".
2005-09-30 14:27:34
227.   gcrl
225 - amen to that
2005-09-30 14:36:24
228.   Icaros
The St. Francis incident didn't include bongos to my knowledge, just two young men having a good time.
2005-09-30 14:46:39
229.   LAT
203 Icaros, once agin we are simpatico. I saw Elizabeth Perkins in something recently and thought she actually looks better now than she used to. Sela Ward is the best example of a woman getting better with age.

Tara Reid is already past her prime which was marginal to start with. Sure, I don't mind looking at her but soon as she speaks someone better call her PR folks. Saw her on David Letterman one night trying to defend Lizzy Grubmen for intentionally running those people over at a Long Island night club. She was saying things like they weren't really hurt and Lizzy was really mad so its not so bad.

2005-09-30 14:49:14
230.   LAT
226. I too have heard that McConaughey is a "Friend of Dorothy".
2005-09-30 14:50:02
231.   Sam DC
1. Um, I go do a few hours work and what happens to you guys?

2. Um, I go do a few hours work, and what happens to Dodger Thoughts (my screen is stretched real wide -- anyone else's?)

3. No lineups for any of the 7 o'clock/4 o'clock games yet.

4. I lost a spelling bee in elementary school in the first round on "o'clock": "o'clock [pause] o-c-l-o-c-k [pause] o'clock" -- "sorry son, there's an apostrophe after the 'o'." -- "That's not spelling. That's punctuation!!" "sorry son, you'll have to step down off the stage now. yes, right now. NOW."

2005-09-30 14:52:38
232.   Sam DC
231 Is Dodger Thoughts middle age the time when you've been commenting so long you start repeating stories? I remember now that we already did spelling bees and I posted that "o'clock' story. Hmmm . . .
2005-09-30 14:53:11
233.   Bob Timmermann
231

I would have rung you up for the lack of an apoostrophe too, Sam.

The screen is really wide because of a long URL that was posted.

2005-09-30 14:54:05
234.   Marty
231 the screen stretches to accomodate any really wide URL that someone posts. It will return to normal when we get to the 250's in comments
2005-09-30 14:54:35
235.   Icaros
apoostrophe

LOL.

2005-09-30 14:55:19
236.   Marty
Wow, someone chopped the long url
2005-09-30 14:57:34
237.   Bob Timmermann
235

Now you know what's on my mind!

2005-09-30 15:02:37
238.   Sam DC
Not that I'm trying to steer us to new ground, but I read this and found it superinteresting, yet impossible to really understand. This is very clearly not your father's Dungeons and Dragons.

http://tinyurl.com/ao6kz

Can SkyNet be far behind?

2005-09-30 15:04:30
239.   Jon Weisman
Pennant race thread is open up top.
2005-09-30 15:24:58
240.   Sushirabbit
I love this place.

I do get tired of the political stuff sometimes, but I've noted most people tend to refrain from it.

You know I don't care if you like "moneyball" or "smallball" or "hardball", why can't we just model ourselves after Atlanta? I mean, #@$@%!
And they have another up and coming star pitcher who's gotten in some innings (I know, I have him on my Fantasy league).

I'd definitely be interested in a trade with Atlanta, but I don't think we'd have much they are interested in, since they don't appear to need anything.

I'd take a chancce on Milwood for low dollars, but I'd much rather get a good hard throwing ace by hook or crook.

I don't post as much, because, well I realized that I usually don't have anything worthwhile to add, and because I am usually able to check this out after everyone else has posted. But I keep wanting to thank Jon and the regulars for helping me get through some bad days.

2005-09-30 15:33:38
241.   trainwreck
224-
A Time To Kill
2005-09-30 21:23:17
242.   MikeB
Who takes JT's place?
Orel? Not enough experience as a manager, too much personality to be a DePo guy
Kennedy? Not a favorite of anyone on this board so that makes him a front runner
Washington? A longshot - probably a great fit for DePo, but not enough of a "name" to placate the press (Plascke/Simers) or McCourt
Royster - He's already a Dodger, he's actually got experience managing, he's familiar with the young guys coming up, may be a good fit for Depo
Pinella? - the Boss wants him back in NY. Torre is history whether he wins or not
Terry Collins - you've got to be kidding. He was so uptight as an Angels manager before they became media darlings how do you think he'd handle being the Big Blue Crew's leader? Besides, he's got a great job already as director of minor leagues for Dodgers
I think Royster gets the job. He signs on after agreeing to Depo's terms.
2005-09-30 21:24:54
243.   bojangles
Re: original premises: "Until now, there hasn't been anyone who felt that if all the players had been healthy.....that the Dodgers
couldn't have won more than 90 games."
Whoa!!!! Felt that way before the season, and said so. Felt that way while almost every player mentioned delivered mediocre and lesser performances BEFORE being injured, and said so.
Employ the absolutes with care, young fan.
I thought this team, healthy, was good for roughly .500 b-ball. Still think that...
"This is a leader? This is an organizational soldier? This is the classy guy I keep hearing about?
"This is a manager?"
And, this, I assume, is a clicking of heels, and a journey in space and time, to Hester Street?!?
2005-09-30 21:59:49
244.   bigcpa
243 Jon said "couldn't" not "wouldn't." Jon projected the healthy 2005 team would win somewhere between 80 and 100 games. So with perfect hindsight give us your range of possible wins for the fully healthy Dodgers.
2005-10-01 00:40:40
245.   Louis in SF
Saturday's LAT article, I think is the real leak that lets Tracy know he is gone. The Dodgers have now stated that they will let him know by Tuesday if he gets an extension or is fired. DePodesta said about a two weeks ago that if the Dodgers were going to let Tracy go they would do it in a hurry, out of respect for Tracy. By saying Tuesday that is about has quick has it can be
2005-10-01 11:42:14
246.   ElysianPark62
#242: I think Royster is likely. Interesting that he was "brought up" from Vegas to be in the Dodgers' dugout the last few weeks of the season. That isn't typical procedure.

#77: Kris Rone and Bob Graziano resigned. They weren't "let go." But it does raise eyebrows when longtime employees leave to the ambigous strains of cited "philosophical differences." Derrick (sp?) Hall also comes to mind in that regard. He was highly respected.

2005-10-01 11:47:22
247.   ElysianPark62
#242: For the record, I advocate Kevin Kennedy as a manager. He has followed the Dodgers for quite a while as an analyst, clearly knows their system well, was a player in their minor leagues, and has a decent mangerial record.

I generally like what he has to say in his takes. He strikes me very much as someone who wouldn't tolerate crap from players and could motivate them. Not sure how his personality would meld with DePodesta's, though. And it begs the question why he hasn't managed since 1996. I would think he's not a favorite.

2005-10-01 11:48:09
248.   ElysianPark62
#247: Oops, that should've been "managerial."
2005-10-01 13:48:14
249.   Steve
Employ the absolutes with care, young fan.

Meanwhile, employ hypocrisy with barely a care at all.

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