Please allow me into the fray first here, since I just got done watching the game on TIVO and missed the agony of live complaining. How can a team that's trying to make the playoffs lose a game to the worst team in the league, a team that made SIX ERRORS, after being up 7-0? The second Hamulack touched the mound, I knew it was over. What horrible managing. What a horrible game.

Keep in mind that if Saito had come in in the 9th, we still would have lost tonight. Unless you want to pitch him for 3 and you assume he would have been scoreless for 3.
Grady did not lose this game with that move.

2
It was tough to pull out the loss, but the guys came together as a team and got the job done. It's really a testament to the character and grit of the whole squad.

2 I guess I don't get it. Say Saito pitches 2 scoreless innings. You're assuming Sele gives up a run relieving him in the 12th, when in real life Sele gave up no runs?

Failure of will.

We should have been rained out.

4 That should say 11th, not 12th. The point still stands.

I like Grits, but he really blew it with his management of the bullpen. Grits was lucky to even get 2 scoreless innings from Sele. His luck finally ran out when he went to one of his worst relievers in Hamulack.

Nomar continues to disappoint. I'd like to see Loney get a few starts. Kemp has gotten a few starts this month, but Loney has basically been relegated to pinch hitting duties. Grits promised that Kemp and Loney wouldn't rot on the bench. He isn't exactly living up to his word.

2 Why do you assume Hamulack would have been the choice following 2 innings of Saito? At any rate, that is not what matters. With the possible exception of the bottom of the ninth, Saito was clearly the right choice to bring in if you wanted to maximize your chances of winning. Maximizing your chances does not mean guaranteeing them. Of course we could have brought in Saito for two innings and still have lost, but our odds would have been better.

For proof that not all managers are clueless about reliever leverage, the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim just brought Francisco Rodriguez into a tie game in the ninth.

I went for the reverse cliche, but 5 and 6 were just funnier.

Tip of the cap, boys.

10

And all right fielders are cursed tonight.

10 given that particular manager, I'm betting on something other than understanding leverage.

I think it is argument over principle not results, right now the Angels are in tie game top of the ninth and Frankie came in to start the inning.

He's now first and third with 2 outs because Vlad misplayed a fly ball, but Sciosia is managing to win the game now.

10 Not sure what that proves, exactly. Saito's been brought into a tie game or three before. Just not tonight.

The Angels are also at home, which makes it an apples and oranges situation.

13 Maybe not understanding it, but he's at least showing an instinctive grasp of the principle.

10- it's a home game, therefore there wasn't going to be a save opportunity. It was "safe" to bring him in.

They don't have Donnelly tonight so he probably thinks that he needs to win no later than 10 innings because they don't have anyone after Frankie.

16 No, he's not. He's doing what The Book says you do in a tie game in the ninth at home. You can bet the farm Little would have done the same thing.

9 Again, reasonable minds can disagree. Unless you assume that Grady and many many managers around the league are clueless. I realize your answer to that. You have made it clear that you feel that you are right and all managers employed in the MLB are wrong.

4 I assume nothing about what would happen in a parallel universe. I'm just answering the idea that Grady blew the game when he brought in Sele instead of Saito.

You guys are over analyzing everything.
The Cubs made like 6 errors and played horrible. If they just make even the most routine of plays, the game never gets to extra innings.

This is just a bad game all around.

Both teams deserved to lose.
It should have even been played tonite. At least started when it was. There were puddles on the warning track, guys losing balls in the rain.

Just a bad decision to even play the game tonite.

Sam and Bob, I think I actually first heard (read) the Nook Lohan nickname at:

http://tigers-fan.blogspot.com/

For some reason, I suspect that if Nate were stuck in Detroit blogging about those teams, it would look quite a lot like that blog actually does.

But then we would hear about Tigers prospects all the time from some weirdo goatee'd alternate universe Nate.

Steve would be played by Betty White.

And Jon? Eric Stoltz.

Unless you assume that Grady and many many managers around the league are clueless.

There's that "many many" qualifier again. It again needs to be replaced by "all." ;)

20 OK; I still don't understand what you were trying to say. You said the D's would have lost anyway. I'm trying to understand how.

Saito pitches the 9th and 10th. Sele pitches the 11th and 12th. That happens, we're still playing. Hamulack doesn't get to blow it until the 13th at earliest.

Anyone wish to hazard a guess as to the name of a particular reliever that Bruce Bochy didn't use for the Padres tonight in San Diego?

Ooops i mean:

It should not have been played tonite, at the very least the game could have been delayed an hour until the rain stopped.

Just an awful all around game.

25 Calvin Schiraldi?

25 He's a closer.

25 It was in Cincinatti, making the point all the more relevant.

I can think of at least 3 games the Dodgers should have won going away but I can't think of any right now that they did not deserve to win.

20 - Grady didn't blow the game with that move. He just decreased his chances of winning.

24 I'm sorry to have even got into the "what would have happened" game. Of course, everything changes with every move. Perhaps if Saito starts the 9th, the Padres all catch colds and are out for the year. I was trying to simply say that the Sele for Saito move didn't kill them.

The White Sox are not playing by Jon's book.

32 Good for you. Noboby ever factors in biological warfare.

And they should.

The Dodgers blew the game when they could not make a play in the 5th inning or get a big hit in the 4th or 5th to make it really hopeless.

If Repko was in center, the runner would have been dead at the plate.

32 When you lose a game 9-8, especially after being up 7-0, it's nto really possible to point to one thing that caused the loss. The point is, not playing Saito was a mistake. It was a move that decreased the probability of winning the game. It does not have to be the reason the game was lost to be the wrong move. The Dodgers could have won tonight and the decision would still have been foolish.

In a parallel universe, the A's, Padres, Marlins and Dodgers all won and life remained thread-free.

36 Or even more runs would have scored as the ball bounced off the top of the backstop...

37 Ahhh. On that conecpt can agree 100%. I still disagree about the move.

OK, I'm going to bed before everybody starts making like Red Sox fans and Grady finds himself on the next bus back to North Carolina.

Let's win tomorrow.

35 If the Dodgers don't win the West. This will be The Game of Infamy. And the fifth inning will be forever remembered as "The Inning". Well, probably not, but that was one of the quirkiest innings I ever saw. A bleeder to short. Misplayed bloops by Kemp and Ethier. A popfly landing just fair. And Martin throwing it high when Lee was a dead duck at second.

Could have I phrased my question about Bochy any more poorly?

Or should I have asked:

Is there a poorer way in which the question that I might have asked about San Diego and relief pitchers been phrased in such a way that it was more ambiguous than it was in its past form?

The problem is that closers have become such specialists, managers are reluctant to use them in anything but situations in which a save is on the line. That philosophy has evolved over the last few years, perhaps a decade. It was not always the case. Look at the records of some of the great closers for the Dodgers and you will see that they often came in in non-save situations. I can think of Clem Labine, Ron Perranoski, Phil Regan, (kinesiologist and rubber-armed) Mike Marshall and Jay Howell. I might have been OK with saving Saito had we had some of our excellent set-up men from recent years, such as Matt Herges, Paul Quantrill or Guillermo Mota, or, more recently, Duaner Sanchez or Yhency Brazoban. But Sele and especially Hamulack don't fit that category. That is the key reason I believe Little was wrong in saving Saito.

"Let's win tomorrow."

Brad "Terrible Pitcher" Penny is on the mound tomorrow. Still, the Dodgers should win.

You should always bring your best pitcher in during a sudden death situation.

However, given the Cubs lineup, if they only want Saito to pitch 1 inning, I can understand going with Hamulack to get out the scrap that the Cubs throw out there.

Hamulack should be able to get out Izzy, Blanco, Soto, etc......Those guys are horrible.

Little's trying to preserve Saito for the Padres series I think. Not many off days from here on out. It burned him tonite, but against the Cubs lineup even our worst relievers should have been able to get the job done.

If were going to start discussing "what ifs" I think we need to start using the subjunctive mood.

If not, I'm out of here.

45 I'm sure he would prefer to be called Brad "Winningest Pitcher in the National League" Penny.

42 - The 5-0 collapse vs. SD dwarfs this.

47 Shouldn't Bobby Darin have sung, "If I WERE a carpenter, and you were a lady..."?

Frank Robinson brought in Chad Cordero for a possible four out save tonight.

And there was rejoicing and mirth and drinking of the small beer.

49 So so true. April 30th hurt much more despite being so early in the year.

51
Mark Grace thinks the Nats have the DBacks jinxed.

Well, the Rockies have the Nats jinxed, so maybe the Diamondbacks should buy Jamey Carroll from Colorado.

Or maybe they could just rent him out for Nationals games?

At least the Marlins lost.
But with the Giants winning, the magic number I dont decreased today.

If the Dodgers end up not winning the West, it will be because they won fewer games than the Padres. Sorry, someone had to say it.

38 - That must be the 2007 Gary Sheffield universe, not to be confused with this year's NL Benito Santiago Wild Card race, available only on The Griddle!

The Nats have passed up the Orioles in the DC/Baltimore Metro Area Battle.

55. Not sure what you meant to say regarding the magic number. But the magic number to win the NL West decreased by 1 today.
vr, Xei

59
He was referring to the magic number to clinch a playoff spot.

60. You got that from the magic number I dont decreased today.? You must work in a library or something. :) vr, Xei

Since we're all going on record debating this game, I'll just add that I too wonder why Saito wasn't brought in. But can also scarcely blame the loss on that - when you blow a 7 run lead to a team that can't field worth a damn on this particular night, it's a team-wide effort. (Still, let's just say this was not one of Grady's* best efforts - I would have brought Repko in as defensive sub and Saito in first, made Hamulack a later, last resort type choice). But again, there are a lot of reasons they lost this game and it's just a shame. Best they can do - and it's one of the good things about baseball over, say, football, that there's always another game soon after - is play and win tomorrow and forget it.

*But for those pointing to the Angels manager over the Dodgers' - the Angels will also more likely be the one of the two not making the playoffs this year.

61
Hey, I helped a guy tonight who came up to me and said "Give me the book about money."

I actually found the book he was looking for without eliciting much more information. It's an old Jedi librarian trick.

Can anyone tell me why it is called the "magic number"? Wouldn't "mathematical number" or, more prosaically, "clinching number" be better?

Jon:

You and I agree re the earlier inning circumstance. As you put it that one day, when it's in the middle innings and we need to close down the other side lest the game get away, yes, bring in the closer if our middle relief is currently as pourous as that seive with the manhole size openings, and shut them down while there's still a game to save. And that's your answer. There was no game for Saito to save. So why bring him in? We play the worst team in the National League twice more, and then our recent nemesis. So another reason not to use Saito.

Pinch hitting for Sele was a whole other matter. We didn't bring up a masher, so we're gonna need another hit anyway, so why, with two out, pinch hit for a starting pitcher who looks like he can give you another 2-3 innings?

I won't otherwise speak about the walks given that the same are simply inexcusable, i.e., let him hit it over the right field wall before I walk him, at least in extras in a division race, but hey, to borrow that line from that cult classic, that's just the kind of hair pin I am....

Greg Brock:

To put it in terms that you can tell your students tomorrow, to borrow historian Dan van der Vat's remark from his work on that war in the Pacific, like Percival at Singapore, the Dodgers abdicated in their minds long before all was irretrievably lost on the field...And the work in question is: THE PACIFIC CAMPAIGN World War II: The U.S.-Japanese Naval War, 1941-1945 [New York: Simon & Schuster 1992]. Oh, and Greg, next time, save me the friendly advice. Thanks. I can count on my left hand the number of people who've said they were offering friendly advice who weren't otherwise motivated by some malicious intent. Given your and Bob's prior running commentary on "treatise", you've given no indication that you're the rare exception.

Miltie:

Kemp pinch hits for power when needed. Otherwise Lofton starts.

Jon:

Sorry, one more. For another word on that pitching I've been treatising about recently, this is what happens when you don't have your Johan Santana. Or your Kirk Gibson to remind all, in no uncertain terms, that this is serious and until the umpire calls, game over, it's always up for grabs, so one need maintain focus. And to add to what Greg can tell his students tomorrow, the standing order otherwise is, in the words of the late Admiral William F. "Bull" Halsey, Attack, repeat, attack!

I'm otherwise envisioning a Twins-Marlins World Series [only because, well, Johan wins 3 of every 7, so his fellow starters only need win 1 of the other 4, and the Marlins seem to have a grasp of the opportunity presented while all is not yet irretrievably lost].

Because some writer back in the 1940s thought "magic number" sounded nice. The Japanese have a different term, although I think they've adopted "magic number" too. The number is slightly harder to determine in Japan because not all the teams have an equal number of wins and losses at the end of the year because they have ties which are not replayed, nor counted in winning percentage.

The Marlins grasped the opportunity so well tonight that they blew a 4-1 lead in the 8th and lost.

66. That's wierd that they have tie games in baseball. I remember you mentioning before that they have a time limit. You would think they would give each team a point like in world cup soccer. Or maybe better yet they could have the two manager partake in a homerun hitting contest to break the tie. If they did that in the MLB, there would be ONE good reason to have an ex-player manage a baseball team. :)
vr, Xei

Update: The 17 runs in the game were scored by 17 different players - the highest total since at least 1974 with each player scoring no more than once, according to David Pinto of Baseball Musings.

69. wow, what are the odds of that? Tonight seems like one of those nights where you expect to get hit by lightning even with clear skies. 17 different players?? 7-0 lead. 6 errors. Somebody must've broke a mirror tonight. vr, Xei

65 - Most of what you wrote, I couldn't follow.

68
Author Robert Whiting claims that Japanese managers like to play for ties so they can avoid losing face.

A Japanese friend of mine thought that idea was laughable. He says nobody likes tie games, but they accept the fact that they happen because you can't strand people at the games because public transportation doesn't run late enough.

66 Thanks re Magic Number.

69 As the late, great Johnny Carson used to say to sidekick Ed McMahon: "I did not know that."

After the split in NY, the Dodgers have a bit of a cushion to where sweeping the Cubs wasnt a complete necessity. However, losing 2 to the Cubs would be very disappointing.

71. hehe, I read a couple of sentences then lost interest. If your post is longer than four or five lines and your name isn't Weisman, Timmermann, or a few others, I move on to the next post. I think any post more than 2 or 3 paragraphs should also contain a cliff notes version. vr, Xei

Dodgers vs Cubs, Padres vs Reds...

I would like to pick up one game on them. Gaining no ground would be disappointing but I could live with. Losing any ground would really disappoint me. vr, Xei

anyone know if Penny is a mudder? Lowe was good in the slop, but obviously prefers the shorter distances.
vr, Xei

Are there any major league teams that use their best reliever the way sabermetricians would use the best reliever? Oakland, maybe? If not, I wonder why not on a team led by Billy Beane?

Watching the Cubs, I'm reminded of the numerous reasons to hope that Ned passes on Juan Pierre again.

I'm thinking the Dodgers will probably bring in a veteran CF'er, and the two that are reasonable price range and wont command long deals...are Eric Byrnes and Juan Pierre.

I'm hoping for Byrnes.

78 Oakland? Well, maybe, unless you count tonight's game, when the A's best reliever, Justin Duchscherer, sat watching while Joe Kennedy gave up four runs in the eighth inning.

Argh.

78. Very few do. The "save" statistic has really fogged the minds of modern day managers. Closers (often best relief pitcher on the team, but not always) are often classified on how good they are by how many saves they have. They also tend to get paid more money based on this statistic too. I think you would see a big uproar if someone were to move the cheese in the bullpen. There are a few other (what would be called) strategical oddities that I'd also like to see. vr, Xei

thank god i took a nap & didn't witness the whole thing, i can't believe they didn't bring in Saito to close it out!!

i don't even know what happend, all i know is that i wake up & see the Dodgers lose 8-9 i can't freaking believe it!! wow!!

i'll say this Lowe did give up 5 big ones when i was watching.

Dodgers may rue this day if they lose out on the playoffs. Anytime you have a team with your boot on their throats, you keep it on, you don't take it off so they can catch their second win. Losing a 7-0 lead to a team that made 6 errors, unfathomable! That's the Dodgers for you. They absolutely stole defeat from the jaws of victory tonight. I'm sick to my stomach!
They better win tomorrow, it's my birthday. I'm hoping Penny doesn't suddenly lose it like Lowe did in the 5th tonight, though a couple pop bloopers aren't all his fault. Good night!

Not that this has anything to do with holding him out tonight, but Saito's fuel tank might be rather low. Little has made vague references throughout the year that lead one to believe he is skeptical about Saito's ability to stay strong enough for the entire season.
Saito's not the youngest closer out there and relies quite a bit on fastball speed, so I suspect any fatigue is to be taken pretty seriouslt. This is his first full season of riding a very live tiger. Not to downplay the rigors of the Japan leagues, but I suspect the demands of closing here over six months exceeds any one season he experienced in Japan.

Last I checked, Saito had thrown something like 400 pitches more than Hoffman. I submit that he's never had to throw so many high-adrenaline, low-margin-for-error pitches in one season. With the SD series coming up and the dearth of open dates, the fresher he can be for the San Diego series and down the stretch, the better. And again, I realize that has nothing to do with whether you use him tonight in a tie game or to get the save tonight.

86 said what I was thinking, as did JoeyP. Saito's the best we've got, but he's old and the MLB season is a new experience for him. We don't want to be wearing him out on a cold night in Chicago when it looks like an Evil Armadillo has already cursed the game. Losing to Chicago when SD is already losing to Cincinatti is an opportunity missed, but oh well it happens. Losing to SD could be disastrous.

Thus, I disagree with Jon. Saito was the guy to bring in only if we had a chance to WIN the game, not just extend the game. The only point in the game where that might have been Saito's opportunity was in the 7th, at the moment when Grady brought in Broxton. But did anyone argue with Broxton at that moment? I sure didn't.

I listened to the game tonight. I thought the highest leverage situation in the game was when Derek Lee was at bat with two on in the sixth. Dessens got the out. If I am the manager and I am going to use Saito only in the most important situations, I would have used him there.

Baseball is better than any other game. It is not basketball or football; you can't put a player in the game, take him out for a rest, and then put him back again. There are often several high leverage situations in a game. A relief pitcher is simply not going to be able to pitch in all of them.

If I have any criticism of Grady tonight, it was not that he didn't use Saito, it was that he only got one out from Dessens. With two outs and none on and a two run lead, I would not have sent Marlon Anderson to pinch hit for Elmer.

A very bad loss tonight. The two walks by Tomko and the two by Hamulak put the Cubs in a position to tie and eventually win the game. The Cubs are a bad team and they did what bad teams usually do: they beat themselves. The Dodgers were not good enough tonight to let the Cubs lose.

Stan from Tacoma

Can I take legal action against the club for insomnia? I just woke up a half-hour ago and while teaching has been on my mind every minute of every day for the last three weeks, I woke up this morning thinking to myself...

Holy crap, how could they do that?

... and that can't be healthy.

Six errors by the Cubs. And we still lose. It hurts, folks. I'm going to be bleary eyed in front of some less-than-forgiving teenagers and I blame the Dodgers. I think I have a case.

Very tough to cheers for this team. To play a game like that in a September pennant race? WOW. Dodgers stink.

Too much moaning and gnashing of teeth over this loss. Games like that happen. There was a beautiful sunrise today, the Dodgers are still in first place, and more baseball tonight. Be thankful that you're here.

91 No. When your pennant-contending team blows a 7-0 lead to the worst team in baseball, all while having their best pitcher on the mound and benefiting from 6 errors, life is terrible. The sunrise this morning was ugly. And my breakfast tasted awful, too. :P

91 You are right... but this is the way the West will be lost. I'm still pissed about last night. And then I have to come into work this morning with all the Angel fans and transplant New Yorkers, and take all their crap!

They leave Lowe in there to go the 5 and get the W and it ends up all being for not...
U G L Y !

79 Byrnes is not what I'd consider "a veteran CF'er", and come on, it's Eric Byrnes, the guy's a serious nut job!

92 "The sunrise this morning was ugly."

Hey, at least you live in California. Here, the sunrise was nonexistent.

According to Fan Graphs, the highest leverage situation last night was when Aramis singled with the bases loaded.

I understand the concern about overworking Saito, but he has pitched zero innings since Friday and one inning since last Wednesday. In the first 12 days of September, Saito has thrown 45 pitches, allowing one baserunner in 10 batters. If he needed to be rested, then the Dodgers have a much bigger problem than any of us have realized.

The 64 thousand dollar question this year, really, is- is this team so much better than the rest of the NL west that we can win in spite of Grittle. You cant swing a dead cat during any given game without hitting a bad decision by him. And for goodness sake get Hamulack off the team. Seriously.

97 Grady's done very few boneheaded things prior to this week.

worst. game. ever.

Apologies if this was already cited, but SI has released it's version of MLB stadium rankings according to something called the "Fan Value Index". The Angels' Stadium ranks #1 overall. Dodger Stadium? Well, it's 26th.

http://tinyurl.com/es7vn

100 - https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/503568.html

92 - Funny you should mention that, because I felt like today was a particularly nice sunrise. Normally I'd take pictures of it while driving, but there was a little more traffic on the 10 East this morning making taking pictures a little more dangerous an act that I'm comfortable with.

91. It was not a beautiful sunrise in Chicago this morning. Luckily, every Cub "fan" in my office has given up on the season and isn't even paying attention to the games anymore. I'm not sure any of them realize that the Cubs actually won last night.

92 I hope the Dodgers aren't buying into this "worst team in baseball" description of the Cubs. They've been losing, but with Lee back in the lineup, they can be dangerous on offense at least. Plus, they've played so badly the past four weeks, you have to figure regression to the mean applies.

Doubleheader action in Pittsburgh today! Freddie Sanchez has gone back ahead of Miguel Cabrera in the NL batting race with a first inning double!

The more I think about last night the madder I get. Why does Ethier swing at the first pitch he sees with two on and two outs? And how can Hamulack come out throwing balls? The run that scored reached on a walk? once again...U G L Y!

"worst team in baseball" probably played as bad a game as they can play and beat the dodgers.
lets hope the penny can screw his head back on straight, stop the allstar induced over throwing and keep the team in the game for a while.

My first reaction after the loss was that I just can't watch the Dodgers lose in this type of fashion again and ruin their season.

That was the reactionary in me.

However, upon contemplative reflection, the goal was to win every series subsequent to the New York split this past weekend.

That being said, no matter how ugly yesterday's game was, if they take 2 of 3 against the Cubs, mission accomplished.

This club has a strange resilient way about them. Unfortunately, they just don't have the killer instinct that we all would love them to have.

To get us off this depressing topic and onto another one. ESPN.com's Page 2 came out with a Hometown Bums ballot. I am saddened by the fact that Kevin Malone is coming in dead last among the 5 Dodgers.

109 JD Drew is leading for two teams.

108 Its funny that you point out the killer instinct thing. I was wondering last night as to what kind of memes will surface regarding this season once we head into the off-season and how management will move to address it. Is Ned going to go out and try to trade for some players to remedy this 'killer instinct' intangible problem we may or may not have? Is this going to result in signing more shoddy vets? Are we going to go the Cubs route and pay big money for middle relief? Just thinking out loud here..

109 - Penarol1916, a trustee of the museum where I work has been nominated to be to be Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the United States of America to the Oriental Republic of Uruguay:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060912-3.html

I was Ambassador Ordinary to Uruguay once, but nobody listened to me with that title.

Bad news out of Minnesota, Liriano left the game in the third inning with a reported left elbow injury.

Oriental Republic of Uruguay??

115 - Yeah, apparently it has something to do with this:

1812-20—Orientales, or Uruguayans from the eastern side of the River Plata, fight against Argentinian and Brazilian invaders.

1828—Brazil, Argentina renounce claims to territories which become the Eastern Republic of Uruguay.

1830—Constitution approved.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/42/211.html

112. That's very interesting, it should be a lot of fun for him. Uruguay is going through some interesting issues right now and they've always been among the most anti-American countries in Latin America.

A picture I've never seen before. (Ignore the sad text next to it!)

http://tinyurl.com/egbq4

115. The name Uruguay actually refers to the river Uruguay. Uruguay was originally a sub-territory of the Vice-Royalty that became Argentina and the name is just that it is the Republic East of the Uruguay River. Kind of like Burkina Faso used to be called Upper Volta.

I was listening to some of the commentary after the game and there was some mention of killer instinct, etc. It all comes down to execution and again we saw it last night. I think the odds are really in your favor when you enter the 7th inning and beyond with the lead.

Last night we saw the Astros lose a game in the 9th, the A's and the Marlins lost leads in the 8th, the Dodgers and Padres had games tied in the 7th and 8th respectively and then lost them in extra innings.

And yet, the odds are that better than 9 times out of 10, the teams that lost those games last night are going to win those games.

The Reds tied the game off Scott Lindbrink in the 8th when their 3B, who is no speed king, stole third off of Piazza and then scored when Phillips beat out a potential double play.

The Twins got back to back doubles and scored 4 runs to comeback from a 2 run, 8th inning deficit off Joe Kennedy, who is not the A's main setup pithcer or closer.

Brad Lidge had 2 out and one on when he hit the mighty Scott Spiezio to bring up Albert Pujols who then doubled in 2 runs to beat the Astros.

LH middle reliever, Taylor Tankersley, had gotten the Marlins out of the 7th and the Marlins led by 3 going to the 8th when the first two batters got up and Carlos Delgado, who was probably Tankersley's batter, hit a 3-run homer to tie the game and the next two Marlin pitchers gave up back to back doubles to give the Mets the lead and eventually the game.

Only one closer got beat yesterday, Lidge, while you could argue that Joe Torre would have brought in Rivera in the Padre game (1 out, two on), but in the other games, the game changed so fast, it was hard to do anything except start those innings with different pitchers.

Lots of second guessing out there for arm-chair managers but at least there are games today so all those teams can move on.

112 At first glance, it looked like you said that Penarol1916 is a trustee of your museum and just became ambassador to Uruguay.

On further review, your prudent omission of a comma after "work" cleared the matter up for me nicely.

Wow. Last night, I had to leave for dinner with my mother-in-law with the score 7-5. I recorded the game, but by the time I got home, the recorder was off, because the game had run too long. So I wasn't going to get to watch the end, and I just checked the score online.

Judging from the conversation here, it looks like I picked a good game to miss.

Now, what is this "sunrise" you're all talking about? Not a term I'm familiar with...

121. I'm a little too young to have the gravitas of this trustee at Jon's museum, plus, he seems like he is probably too busy to be posting here every day.

OK, I just learned the full name of Uruguay and the definition of plenipotentiary. There continues to be so much I don't know.

121/123 - Still, I could have written my comment better to avoid the confusion!

In college football news, the backup punter for Northern Colorado has been arrested for stabbing the starter in the leg...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2585781

and

The Stanford Cardinal have made an appearance in the Bottom 10.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2585138

126 - We might have reached the nadir last year after the Davis loss.

I don't know if the Twins will rue bringing back Liriano, but he left the game in the third with an "undisclosed left elbow injury."

I shaved my beard off today to bring the Dodgers good luck. Or at least clogged sinks.

But I didn't shave today.

Because I have the day off mainly.

126 How do two 1-1 teams make the bottom 10? There are well more than 10 0-2 teams.

Info on teams that have committed 6+ errors in a game and still won ...

http://diamondsareforhumor.mlblogs.com/diamonds_are_for_humor/2006/09/winerror_you_ca.html

131. The same way that 1-loss teams can be ranked higher than undefeated teams at the other end of the spectrum. If rankings were simply the same thing as standings, what would be the point of rankings (leaving aside the bigger question about the point of sports)?

If your 1 win is against East Texas State Bible School and Beauty College, why should you get any credit for that?

OTOH, if you're 0-2 against two tough opponents, and lost, but lost well, then why should you be condemned?

And so on.

133 - So clearly, Cal should be in the Bottom 10 as well.

120. Actually my "killer instinct" thought generally gravitated to the fact that the Dodgers were 4 games up a week or so ago and could have put a lot of pressure on those teams chasing them by winning a few more games.

Somebody out there will know immediately what the Dodgers' won/loss record is after reaching the 4 games up plateau. I would venture to guess that they are a .500 team since that time, maybe slightly less.

Is killer instinct infallible? Or just another myth. I vote for the latter.

Can you not possess killer instinct and still lose? Can you not lack it and still win?

Killer instinct seems like a euphemism for having a better combination of talent, execution and fortune than your opponent, when you have a lead. But it's not this mystical force.

When Kemp came up earlier this year and started out so well, I became a fan. I understood when his performance degraded so much and he had to be sent back down. I rejoiced when he rebounded at Las Vegas and had high hopes when he was recalled. But what I've seen from him the last week is downright depressing. He has no power and very little contact skills, not to mention his defensive lapses. I am beginning to think he may go the Guzman route. At the very least it keeps us in the market for another outfielder next year. Soriano would suit me. Lofton as a pinch hitter only. Someone mentioned Eric Byrnes. Byrnes looks funny to me and always seems to be doing strange things, but his numbers are OK, so I wouldn't object to giving him a try. I think both Kemp and Ethier need hours and hours of outfielding practice this offseason. Also starting to get disenchanted with Betemit. He might be the biggest excuse for offering Nomar another contract, but specified to play third base unless Little chooses to move him around later. Speculation from me, nobody knows what Colletti will do. Except maybe the Tampa Bay GM...

118 That is a great photo of Drysdale and Koufax. While perusing that site, I looked at all the Sports Illustrated covers that can be purchased. While one can buy covers with Labine, Snider, Newcombe, Alston, Parker, Garvey Guerrero or other Dodgers on them, none of the five covers featuring Koufax is available for purchase. Does anyone know why?

137 I think the difference is that Kemp continued to progress in AAA, though perhaps not with HR power but a high OPS and better stike recognition, he too is just 21, a few months older than Joel but he has shown some ability to adjust at each level plus I think he is coachable.

He has already said that he is going to play winter league ball so I would not give up on him yet.

Betemit had a week where the Dodgers face 4 LHPs and Grady has shown a reluctance to play him plus it gives him a chance to play Lugo. I still think his power game has great potential as he led the Dodgers in homers in August.

When the photo in 118 was first posted it said "1962 Brooklyn Dodgers"

139 I'm not giving up on either of these guys, I'm just saying I don't think Kemp is going to be ready to step in in April, a little more training in Las Vegas can only help him. Same with Betemit, he needs a lot of at bats against Lefties. my thought was sign Nomar to play third till Betemit or LaRoche is ready to take over, then use him to replace Kent or Loney or the third baseman as needed, a super sub.

139. plus it gives him a chance to play Lugo

Just like Jim Tracy with Grabowski or Phillips, the ultimate responsibility for allowing the manager to play with dangerous toys lies with the GM who gave him the toys and won't take them away. At this point, I'd much rather see Betemit against lefties than see Lugo at all. The former has upside potential and a future with the team. The latter has neither.

134. While I applaud your intent, I conclude that you're just joshing. Cal got well and truly trounced by a very good team, and then obliterated a decent team. Minnesota is a middle-of-the-pack Big-10 school, not ETSBSBC.

I was actually amazed to see the transformation of Cal's QB, Longshore, between the Ten game and the Min game. He went from a deer in the headlights to a confident team leader in one week. I wonder where reality is.

Cal's preseason #9 ranking was a huge joke, but they're probably a top 25 team when all is said and done.

In Roy Smith's new post at ItD, he mentioned that the only person from Jacksonville that will join the Dodgers is John Shoemaker, the Suns' manager.

136 I agree its a myth. Im just curious to see which myths become part of the narrative of 2006 when the dust settles and what management will do to respond to them. Last season it was team chemistry and although we kinda lucked into Ethier on that route, it was more of a fluke than anything intentional.

It was just one decision in just one loss. All I'm saying is that I don't understand the decision, not that the decision was the end of the world.

it wasn't just one decision, it was typical Grady Little...not much different than when he says the hitters are better when they know they have the next day off...or giving the regulars off every 4 or 5 days even tho there are only 3 weeks left in the season and the West and the Wild Card races are toss ups...

133 - "If your 1 win is against East Texas State Bible School and Beauty College, why should you get any credit for that?"

Obviously you've never seen the girls from ETSBSBC. They make up one serious offensive line. And they clean up nice for Sunday meetings, too.

Gimme a E
Gimme a T
Gimme a S
Gimme a B
Gimme a S
Gimme a B
Gimme a C

Honestly, Kemp is all of 21, and a fairly raw 21 at that. He'd barely played above A-ball until this year, and since returning has shown certain qualities--like an occasional ability to hit a curveball--he didn't when he was here before. Yep, he flails at pitches down-and-away, just like Howie Kendrick (for example) does, and just like every young hitter I would bet who's not named Pujols or Cabrera. He could do so for a while, and it still wouldn't make him a bust.

The fact is, we probably shouldn't just hand the center-field job over to him in spring training, and the team desperately needs a big bat that's already in (not past) its prime. But how we're gonna balance that need against benching or underselling our promising rookies I'm not entirely sure. The trouble with being a Dodger fan is, we--the franchise and the fans--get impatient with developing talent (see under: Konerko, Paul) and sell short. To be too impatient with Kemp at this stage--and for the next few years, frankly--would be unwise.

The Marlon Anderson experiment in left field continues tonight.

I forget whether the DT Zeitgeist leans in favor of Ethier playing or against. Zeitgeist is often fickle.

I think this part of the Zeitgeist would rather see Ethier out there with Loney as the first alternate.

Anderson playing over Ethier has to be Little AKing Colletti; Even against lefties, Ethier is better than Anderson. Anderson and Lugo will join Jason Phillips on our Most-Hated-List. McCourt has to make it plain to Colletti" "If you must make a trade, make it for a GOOD IMPACT player, no more Salvation Army rejects!"

151 Hey, no demeaning comments about the Salvation Army. I once did a brochure for them. Great organization. At the board luncheon I attended, the menu was bologna on white bread, a can of soda and a cookie. No frills. That was an organization that did not waste money and one that truly helped people of all faiths, or no faith, in need.

they are resting Ethier for the World Series...I don't understand why everyone can't see that...

153
Along with Don Drysdale in 1962 no doubt.

yes, no doubt

I am hoping that after watching Little operate this year, no one is surprised when ever regular gets a day off during the Padre series...

Speaking of Stanford, their beautifully (newly) remodeled stadium premieres this weekend.
Check it out:
http://tinyurl.com/e4wvm

And speaking of any lingering bitterness or nausea from last night's game, the giddiness the Giants and their fans felt after seeing the score should make the Dodgers (and their fans') "killer instincts" come out after reading about it:
http://tinyurl.com/hbpd5

Speaking of closers, does anyone know if there's a particular reason Eric Gagne has been kept on the 15-day DL all this time?

118 A great picture, poignant even.

Freddy's not dead,
Freddy's not dead,
that what I said.

Freddy's not dead

159 referring to the el-perfecto so far???

Not going to talk about that, but I will say it's fun that old friend Sandy Alomar Jr. is catching today. Good ol' Sandy...

160 See #9 to the right.

160 - You just committed an error, a foul, and a penalty, all in one post.

In my book, a game does not become "interesting" until the 7th inning is completed. The game in Anaheim is now interesting.

164 Ben Sheets couldn't make it then.

165 However, after giving up his first base hit, he picks off the runner and then strikes out the next two so he has only faced 21 batters.

If you're a strict constructionist, no violations of rule #9 have taken place.

167 - Since "no-no" is allowed, I'm thinking I might allow 160. But it's borderline.

rule #9?? what is that?? not mentioning a perfect game while in progress??

you mean not mentioning 23 in a row so far??

168 - Activist judge.

I thought we were supposed to be liberal constructionists here. My mistake.

169 - Aw man, now that definitely violates the spirit of the rule.

call me a pisher

You can talk about it now

I now feel better about turning down a free ticket to the Angels game today and instead opting to take my car in for service.

175 now there is nothing to talk about....

Howard -- see the rules posted at bottom right. I'm sure someone can also point you to the post Jon did about why #9 is a big deal for him.

The hit came five minutes after the jinx.

He should have walked Kennedy but I give credit to Garcia for not giving in and going for the perfect game.

I'm going to my first game this year Saturday. I don't think I'll get to Phillipe's before the game though.

Oh man, Howard jinxed him.

The Blue Jays have had a 3-run double and a grand slam in the fourth inning in Seattle.

They're ahead by a lot.

if there is such a rule, then why did the announcers for the angels talk about it incessantly since the 5th inning??

Howard, Freddy Garcia is gonna come looking for you tonight. He'll be looking to kick butt and chew some bubble gum. And he'll be all out of bubble gum.

yeah, well...every party needs a pooper, that's why you invited me...

181 I think there will be 50,000+ with another 90K + going to the USC/Nebraska game that kick offs a few hours before. Plus the pregame celebration for 1981 team.

184 - Announcers are exempt from Rule 9 per sub-paragraph b

185 that's ok, Freddy and I are on a first name basis, I spoke with him about the no hitter between the 6th and 7th innings on our cell phones

184 I believe Jon has said before that broadcasters are there to report what is going on, even Vinny on the classic 9th inning call of Koufax's perfecto told everyone what was going on.

Ben Sheets will probably have a higher game score.

Howard, the rule is only for this site and it's one of the ones Jon feels strongest about. It's acknowledged that announcers must talk about it he wants no discussion on here about it.

Personally, I don't believeyou can jinx a no-hitter but if you are going to ban it, I'd also ban the "intersting" talk since everyone knows that's what is being discussed. If you believe in jinxes, you ought to believe in obscure references also being jinxes.

I also believe the jinx rule is waived in Howard's kitchen.

boy, 192 spelling and missing word mess.

192 - I don't think Jon takes it that seriously. It's just a fun little superstition, and the "interesting" meme is just a clever way to talk about it without actually talking about it. Just to make thingsaround here, um, interesting.

Plus, now we get to tease Howard for ruining Freddy's perfect game.

Rationalist that I (mostly) am, I'm also of the opinion that even thinking about the ramifications of an "interesting" game is asking for trouble, never mind mentioning it out loud.

This hypothesis came from experiments conducted by my childhood self during Cowboys games that I inadvertently screwed up by doing something wrong. ;D

196 You didn't screw up nearly enough Cowboy games if you ask me :)

195 I take pride in having such power and influence so as to be able to affect something physical 75 miles away...if that is so, I suggest you all be careful, be very careful...

Jon believes in not calling it i just know it, sabermetrics & all.

195 - Right. It's meant to be fun, but I'd kinda like to preserve that fun. It's selfish of me because I know many don't buy into it, but I am, at my core, a selfish person.

200 that's what your wife keeps saying

197 Ha! :)

I can still remember that devastated feeling I had when they did lose. There's something to be said for Grady's never-too-sad, never-too-happy sports approach -- works for fans too.

201

i know that's what my girl says.

The Cowboys and the Vikings were the bane of my existence when I had a pro football team to root for.

I am a little bugged by all this. I realize that nothing that I do or say has any effect at all on the outcome of a game or play or what have you, but I also still do stupid little things in hopes for a positive outcome. And I get irritated when someone (usually my wife) doesn't respect my stupid, but passionate superstitions. I think it is a little rude to ignore a rule, as dumb as you may think it is, that is set by the owner of this site. I realize the first time was without knowing the rule, but after that it just seemed a little distasteful.

191 Barely. Sheet's game score was 84, Garcia's was 83.

I don't want any bad vibes to come out of this. Really, happy thoughts!

ANYhoo... Jeff Passan has written about Grady Little in a nice little piece for Yahoo:
http://tinyurl.com/faj4n

Too bad he chose yesterday of all days to hang out with him - although maybe that gives the article more, uh, flavor...

No bad vibes. I shouldn't have written that I guess. Sorry everyone.

208

i shouldn't joke with you like that Jon sorry.

ps it was meant to be a joke.

210 - No, I appreciated what you said, but I'm in a good mood and just didn't want people to feel bad on my account.

211 - I deleted 202 because of the language, not because I didn't get the joke :)

212 I don't even like the White Sox:)

and what play has the song "Happy Thoughts"??

211

thank you?? i guess??? ;o)

210 sorry to everyone? wow...that's a lot of people...

a little early for yom kippur wishes I might add...

213 - And I like the Angels.

I saw 202 but didn't get the joke. I figured you're little brother or someone posted for you when you were away from your computer.

What's the weather like today in stockyard town?

Sorry, I'm Mr. Tiny URL today, but here's a new first person piece by Marlon Anderson on adjusting to playing for the Dodgers:
http://tinyurl.com/zytf8

Makes it hard to dislike the guy.

214

"South Pacific" has "Happy Talk".

Jon-just out of curiosity, and I am sure this has already been covered here, where do you stand if the no hitter is being thrown against the Dodgers?

222 - History trumps team loyalty.

223 - That is, making history trumps team loyalty. In this case.

I've seen opposing no-hitters against the Dodgers, and they're worth trading a loss for.

That doesn't mean you can't root for the Dodgers to break it up. I just don't want it jinxed here. Just my quirk.

Why do I think that a Kyle Lohse vs. Jake Peavy matchup is not favorable for the Dodgers?

I guess for me, nothing trumps team loyalty. I would be doing all I could to jinx the thing, just not on this site.

My fear of Kyle Lohse was not misplaced. The Padres lead 1-0 in the first.

227 Having Peavy on my fantasy team, trust me, Kyle Lohse will settle down and he will lose 2-1.

228 I mean Peavy.

With their season on the line, the Reds are starting De Wayne Wise in center field tonight.

230 - Does that rhyme with DeWayne Buice?

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5963668

Cubs reliever Glendon Rusch was diagnosed with a blood clot in his lung and will miss the rest of the season. A team trainer said the condition was not life threatening.

The resemblance between the two men is striking.

218

I won't joke around with you like that.

Its not so much that I don't think Peavy is a better pitcher, he is this year's no run support guy, so he eventually gets beat by giving up a few runs.

Now being in the playoffs this week, I could use a good start by Peavy so I always find myself just hoping that he doesn't get hit up.

Thanks Dusty for giving D. Lee a well deserved day off.

[channeling Steve Phillips]

Pitchers earn run support through their demeanor on the mound. Some offenses just don't want to hit for certain pitchers.

(Exorcist walks into room and yells "Begone goatee-ed one!")

Padres lead 2-0 as Peavy doubles in a run.

Game thread is open.

i'm gonna be wearing my Dodger hat all this series, just because i know these games will = something against the Padres.

Kevin Hench compiled a great list on foxsport.com last winter titled, "Grady's Brain Cramps: Not Just Pedro."

The cache link is inordinately long, but if someone can tell me how to hyperlnk, I'd love to post the cache.