That's what I've been saying about the play. If the runners make one out on the basepaths it's probably something they did to cause the situation. It happens. Players run through stopsigns on a regular basis. But two outs on the same play on the basepaths? Someone got bad directions.

I agree, Jon. Hopefully, we can get the lead by the 7th, so Grady shouldn't mess around anymore and just use Broxton for 7th and Saito for 8th and 9th.

Hate to say this but I guess this is a must win game. I can't imagine us sweeping the Mets if we lose this one. But who knows?

2 - It's a elimination series. They're all must win games.

I think we've likely all tried to replay the play and understand it. I take Donellys word that Drew was coming to 3rd right behing Kent and so he had to send Kent. And from the replay, he IS sending Kent and following him down the line. Could he have waved Kent around while holding Drew, right behind him? Does he have enough arms? I don't know but given that directing traffic is the ONLY thing he is paid to do, he probably should have found a way. I blame Donnelly.

If there is one thing that separates Joe Torre from any other manager in recent history is his usage of Rivera when the game is in winnable position.

While the Yankees have had trouble getting to Rivera for what seems like four to five years, Torre will bring him into the game as early as the 8th with no one out.

But I also think that managers (as most of us) are creatures of habit and that is a hard concept to change once you get to October, to Torre's credit, he pretty much has used Rivera this way in the regular season as well as in October, whether he wanted to or not.

as i've mentioned earlier MLB.RADIO is throwing some pretty mean upper cuts on the Dodger brain trust.

Going into the series I had the Dodgers in four, and I thought that the game they were most likely to lose was game one. I had a hunch that Lowe would get hit hard (he wasn't really hit THAT hard) but that Kuo would come back and repeat his first Shea Stadium performance. Obviously that's asking a lot from the kid, but the playoffs are where stars are born, right?

And if we leave New York with a split, we've got Maddux on the hill Friday, where he's been practically untouchable. And then we get to game four, and while I don't have much confidence in Penny, hopefully Little will have Bills and Hendrickson (!) waiting in the wings to come in at the first signs of trouble.

While today's game is of the utmost importance, the eternal optimist in me won't concede the series if we lose either. If any team is capable of rattling of 3 straight against anyone, it's this year's Dodgers. That said, let's all keep the faith and remember that we're not out of this thing until the final out.

3 - I agree with what 2 is saying. If you're going to be literal, today is not a must-win game. If you're going to be figurative, I'd say Games 2 and 3 are must wins, and if they were won, the Dodgers could afford to lose Game 4.

I attended a playoff game in 1995 in Seattle against the Indians and the starter for the M's that day was a rookie who I don't think had any wins. Can someone who can work their retrosheet magic check that?

2 - Watching this team play all year long, I don't discount the possibility of a 2-game losing streak being followed immediately by a 3-game (or longer!) win streak.

It was Bob Wolcott, who had three career wins. Go to Mike's post, linked above, to see the whole list.

6 Washed up players and wanna-be GM's. Who cares? If they were anyone they're be on AM.

I just love how old Dodgers always come back to bite us. Green to Lo Duca, to knock out two of our recent imports (it's still quite easy to picture Furcal, Kent, etc. with their old uniforms). Valentin doing his thing, with Pedro watching from the dugout. Sigh.

If Penny starts game 4, Little should be fired. I might have him fired just for the Penny desicion in game 1, but that ain't my desicion.

8 - I say they're all must win games because they must be won to advance. There's no backing into the next round in the Playoffs.

6 Who on MLB.RADIO? I don't give much worth or credit to any radio or TV talking head (a few exceptions aside).

I decided to simplify things and make this the Padres-Cardinals chat thread as well.

15 - But they don't all have to be won to advance.

11. Thanks Jon. That was him. In case things start out rocky, if I remember correctly, Wolcott walked the first three batters of the game and was facing Albert Belle, bases loaded and no outs.
He worked out of the inning and ended up getting the win.

15 - That said, a must win game is not the same as a must not lose game. The latter category, in my mind, is when you stand a chance of being eliminated. That that game also happens to be a must win game is mere coincidence.

2 - It's a elimination series. They're all must win games.

i keep on coming back to the same question reading stuff like that, why experiment now during the playoffs Grady!!

20 - I agree with this logic.

18 - So are you saying that "Win or go home" is a false dichotomy?

21 How else would you have him deal with the seventh inning? Whatever he does at this point is an experiment.... because he does not have his usual player to trust in that situation.

He could bring in Tomko. Hendrickson. Sele. Penny. Do a Broxton/Saito combo. All are "experiments" and each have their own particular problems or issues.

20 - Well, okay. But you're sort of changing the common definition of "must win." By your logic, every regular season game you play until you clinch is a must-win - kind of renders the term irrelevant.

24 - Agreed.

Ironically at my son's t-ball practice yesterday evening, I was the third base coach for a baserunning drill.

With the game fresh in my mind, here I was trying to tell two different runners what to do (the runner rounding third and the runner rounding second). I'm not sure if it was any easier or any more difficult given the experience level of the runners (4-5-6 year olds) and yes, I managed to confuse them quite a bit.

16

"Seth & Bone" in all fairness the ex-player is being very diplomatic about it while Seth Everett (sp?) is really leating management have it.

24. Exactly. Whatever way Grady handles the pitching staff from here on out is winging it. We don't have 4 reliable starters and we don't have 3 reliable relievers. You can only move the parts around in so many ways. Someone who you don't want pitching is going to pitch when you don't want him to.

25 - Not irrelevant - just less powerful. Those post clinch games are not must win because they are irrelvant (excepting HFA, MetroArea Bragging rights, and the Heavyweight Title of MLB). The point is to not get elimiated and to be the last one standing. I put greater import in that.

24 - Broxton and Saito Streched out wouldn't be so bad. the kid's fresh isn't he?

I read Bob's latest piece in The Griddle and I thought about his mindset regarding the playoffs.

To me, this season started the day after the 2005 season when Jim Tracy was let go and the search for the new manager began. We then spent a month debating whether we should bring in a hot minor league manager, an old Dodger hero or some rethread.

Then, at the end of October, Paul DePodesta was fired and suddenly no one was running the store. Fears of Pat Gillick or Jim Bowden came to pass and horrors we go to our arch nemisis to hire Ned.

So in less than 2 months, we had gotten rid of what we knew and we were entering a period of what was to come.

Ned brings in Grady, last seen watching his team lose to freaking Aaron Boone, and then they went out and signed and traded and dropped and moved players to new positions and the 2006 Dodgers came to be.

Frankly by the team season started, I figured I would get some relief from the busy off-season.

I was wrong and we all witnessed a roller coaster season of tremendous ups and downs.

So when Sammy Saito struck out the last man on Saturday, I was as satisfied as I ever thought I could be with a season of following my team.

That is not to say that I don't want to them win some more but no matter what, to think that a year ago, I thought we would be here, I wish I could have known that, I would have put some money on the boys in blue.

How else would you have him deal with the seventh inning? Whatever he does at this point is an experiment.... because he does not have his usual player to trust in that situation.

call me crazy but i would have gone with Broxton & Saito only worry about tomorrow tomorrow.JMO.

I agree on the Donnelly stuff, but I was also surprised Kent didn't even attempt to dislodge the ball. If that'd been Fielder Dodger's score a run! And the media would be talking about how mean and unsportsmanlike the Dodgers are.

I'm really bummed about Penny. I can sort of see bringing him in, but after that inning, I sure can NOT see him starting. He's clearly got something screwing up his mechanics. His left foot is landing different, he's more upright, it looks like he's starts from the stretch with his glove lower. He's lost both command (location) and any late movement. Those guys really wanted those fast balls, and with absolute insanity of a floating strike zone, Penny started out on the ropes.

I think that Broxton/Saito is by far the best bet, particularly in retrospect. But Grady didn't feel that way, I guess. If the same situation comes up today, though, we'll see what happens.

This game really summed up the Dodgers' season, IMHO. This is a team that gets crazy breaks and loses in crazy ways. If we get to celebrate a 4-consecutive homer game, we have to expect getting a game with something equally crazy going against us.

Funny that nobody's talking about Marlon Anderson's lackadaisacal lack of a slide right when he doubled home a run right after the home plate mayhem. That made me as nervous as anything - those two moments together made the Dodgers look like a team that doesn't know how to run the bases or slide. I wonder if he got a talking to after that or was it lost in the shuffle?

Anyway, I agree with Jon exactly in his post here so I won't add more than that.

But tomorrow is another day, and in this case, tomorrow is today. (Channeling Casey Stengel or Yogi Berra here.) So let's just win the damned game today and forget about it.

Tell me if this sounds crazy:

Mark Hendrickson should start Game 4 instead of Brad Penny.

I actually think we would have a better chance to win in that scenario.

I think that Broxton/Saito is by far the best bet, particularly in retrospect. But Grady didn't feel that way, I guess. If the same situation comes up today, though, we'll see what happens.

dude!! he's already thinking of handing him the ball in game 4!!

I just saw the replay of THE PLAY on MLB Radio. It's better than what I saw on TV. It clearly shows Kent has rounded third, Drew is maybe 15 feet short of third, and the moronic coach is standing there with his hands in his pocket (figuratively speaking), watching Kent, probably wondering what to have for dinner, making no move at all to stop Drew (There was time). It's all on him. Add in all the other bad calls he's made this year, he definitely needs to be fired. The only thing I can consider in his defense is his age. As one who is on the wrong side of 65 myself, I know for a fact that old people cannot handle the volume of data and make quick decisions anywhere near as well as they used to. It's a young man's game and it would be a lot better, a lot smarter, if coaches and managers were in their 40s instead of 60s.

Assuming Penny starts game 4, which sounds likely at this point, who do you think would be favored in that game? Remember the Mets are starting Oliver Perez with his 3-13 record, 6.55 ERA and 1.75 WHIP.

I think we would be the favorites, and if we just got decent pitching out of Penny we would win it. That game could go a lot like Loney's 9 RBI game.

It was bad luck that Green received a perfect hop off the wall.

It was bad luck that they executed a perfect relay.

Then, the bad luck ends, and the ineptitude begins.

% responsibility in the debacle:
10% Drew: for hesitating between 3rd & Home
20% Kent: for getting a bad break
70% Donnelly: for NOT getting Kent moving; for watching Kent to home; for NOT stopping Drew

Drew looked angry after the play, and as Simers always points out - that takes a lot.

Meanwhile, Donnelly looked sheepish, like a little boy looking away from grape juice spill he just caused. I bet he thought about his mortgage payments last night.....

The bad luck would've resulted in one out.

The ineptitude caused the 2nd out.

35 - I don't think it's that crazy at all! But a lot of that hinges on how Kuo pitches today. If he manages to befuddle the Mets, then I'm all for throwing another lefty at 'em. Of course, if he gets rocked, then it's back to the drawing board.

40 Agree totally.

Let's just make it to Game 4 first...

Assuming Penny starts game 4, which sounds likely at this point, who do you think would be favored in that game? Remember the Mets are starting Oliver Perez with his 3-13 record, 6.55 ERA and 1.75 WHIP.

we spanked that guy, remember our Dodger Thoughts game at Dodger Stadium.

34 - That play didn't bother me much. He had the play in front of him and I think if he felt he needed to slide, he would have. It wasn't the best play but the fact is, he thought he'd be safe standing up, and he was right.

Considering what came before and after it, that play is pretty much of no moment to me.

I was quite taken with Bob's post at the Griddle and while I can't say the loss didn't hurt, and while I do feel that the Dodgers really do have an opportunity to reach the World Series, I would feel worse if the Dodgers were heavy favorites and lost. I do think any win that comes from this point on is gravy on the cake.

70% Donnelly: for NOT getting Kent moving

perfectly said.

I think I would rather have Oliver Perez starting for me. Perez has been terrible for longer, but he was recently good (in the minors) while Penny has a histroy of success, but there have been no recent glimmers of hope. I think it the height of insanity to pitch Penny in game 4, what is the saying: "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". Penny had clearly demonstrated with ERAs over 5 (and twice over 6) in each of the lasts 3 months and 5 ER in the past 2 IP (a robust 22.5 ERA.

40

Kuo being lefty & throwing 92+ is a potion made in heaven for us.

ps not to mentions hitters can't read his arm that well.

35 - I had that same thought.

41 - Seriously. I have tickets that I'd like to redeem, thanks.

43 - Mmm, gravy. I agree. And hey, outcome aside, yesterday's game had a lot of entertainment value. This is all bonus baseball as far as I'm concerned.

Joe Sheehan's column today at BP is a great read.

I implore everyone, including Jon, to stop referring to that debacle as The Play. We really should reserve the capitalized-proper-name treatment for something more positive and pleasing to remember, like a 5-lateral touchdown with time expiring or something.

43 I agree with those sentiments too, I recognize that this team could contend for the World Series but this is has been fun and I still expect a fun filled weekend at Dodger Stadium.

50 How about "Donnely's Doozie"?

go Tigers

50 - Yeah, you're right, except for the positive and pleasing part.

Honestly, I hope you all appreciate how tolerant I am of your Calishness. Because you know, deep down, it burns.

Thank goodness for the glory of the Revenge of The Play - which I proudly witnessed in 1990.

34, 43 - I was also troubled by Marlon's non-slide. That was much closer than it should have been. I'm loving Marlon, but the playoffs are all-out time. You don't play all-out, you don't deserve to win.

I haven't seen anyone else mention another troubling play: Kenny Lofton standing at home plate, bat in hand, watching his fly ball get caught in right field. The runner advanced to third, but Kenny never ran. If that ball gets dropped somehow, they throw him out at first.

This is not playoff baseball. Same with Kent not taking out LaDuca. When you see you're out by 10 feet, that's your only option.

All in all, I don't feel too bad about yesterday - we were right there, we came back, and we almost won. There are a lot of positives. But we've got to turn up the hustle a notch.

That's why I'm least mad at Drew on the double play. At least the guy was flying. I'm okay with that.

50. I agree. I'd love for that to fade away. But I'm afraid the only thing that will make that happen is winning 3 of the next 4 games. Otherwise it will gain momentum and become much more than what it reall was, a flukey running play in the 2nd inning of the first game.

43-I do think any win that comes from this point on is gravy on the cake.

And that's just the way the cookie bounces and the ball crumbles.

Perhaps this will only interest Jon and Bob but the Tribune Co. forced out the LA Times publisher today.

When I consider all the mistakes made on that one base running disaster the biggest would have to be that the 3rd base coach never gave a stop sign to anyone.

43 Maybe right. I just know that it was extremely close, and shouldn't have been quite that close... but compared to what had just transpired I suppose it looked less flagrantly dumb.

And I, too, am appreciating every game as if it could be the last, even if its not, because of what my expectations for this season were. Of course, then I look at the line up the 1988 Dodgers put out there and think we should be winning every game. (Oh wait, we don't have Orel Hershiser. Never mind.)

58 - Bob already made a reference to that.

43
Jon--You've been doing an excellent job keeping the proper perspective not only on the series, but on the season as a whole. As the memories of last night begin to recede a bit, I'm once again regaining some of my optimism about this series. A split at Shea is still very doable.

59 - Yep. Even if Donnelly has to come halfway down the line to throw up the stop sign to Drew, he could have done so. Coaches do it all the time. He should have stopped Drew and he wasn't even looking at Drew.

It all happened so quickly, etc. etc. but that's the guy's job and he blew it. That was the main problem. That and Kent hesitating at second.

By the way, the lineup tonight is the same as last night with Lugo replacing Betemit.

63 That and Kent hesitating at second.

Which is also sort of Donnely's problem.

64 - Which is to say:
Furcal
Lofton
Nomar
Kent
Drew
Martin
Anderson
Lugo
Kuo

I think Lugo is going to get a big hit tonight.

63 - Righto.

64
I wouldn't mind seeing Martinez play instead of Lugo. He's been much steadier and is much less likely to do something stupid on the basepaths (having a flashback to Lugo's ill-advised attempt at stealing home against Rockies in August).

Kent held up to tag. Probably not the best decision, considering the eventual location of the ball but with no one out I can appreciate Kent's decision.

But at that point, everyone should've ground to a halt. Drew should've recognized that Kent wasn't going and should not have been heading to third with blind urgency.

And Donnelly just flat out made a bad decision on sending Kent home.

59

oh how we needed Tommy Lasorda's mid 70's 3rd base coaching/yelling skills there.

I think Lugo is going to get a big hit tonight.

Lugos magical powers are expanding to fan territory now.

69 - That's a good point, and it illustrates how this whole play isn't quite as bone-headed as it appears at first.

Kent is thinking of tagging, Drew is thinking of scoring from first. Both good ideas, which end up presenting Donnelly with his dilemma.

He has to send Kent or else have two guys on third, but when Kent goes, he has to stop Drew.

I feel for Donnelly, I'm sure he feels terrible, but he has to stop Drew there. That was his best call.

Woooooooo Zumaya is the next KRod! This guy makes Billy Wagner look like Tom Glavine, wow!

My word. Even if ESPN's radar gun is on the high side, this guy can really throw heat. 103mph?

69/72 - I don't fault Kent for hesitating. It was an honest reaction, especially with one out No, the ball wasn't catchable, but he needed a moment to digest that.

62 - Thanks.

73 - Did Verlander really strike out ARod earlier with 2 pitches clocked at 101?

And they brought Zumaya in during the 7th inning, and he proceeded to pitch the 8th too? Egads, what a concept!

Yeah, the other thing about yesterday, is that I'd take the starter matchup again quite happily.

75 - Neither do I. But everything played out as a result of that. He did think to tag, at which point you should play station-to-station unless Green fumbles it. Bases loaded, no one out.

If he reads the ball correctly, he scores standing up and Drew is properly held at 3rd, as there is no confusion with Donnelly's intentions. One run in, 2nd and 3rd, no one out.

Ah, what could've been...

I think it's a break that they play this game right away too (no one-day break like SD/StL). Get right back out there and continue to hit the ball like they did yesterday.

75 - Right. Drew saw the ball better and was running, but Kent thinking tag was okay, too. He was wrong, Drew was right, but I'm okay with Kent hesitating to make sure. But that is why they were coming into third together.

That's when Donnelly has to be the traffic cop.

Broxton ain't got nothing on Zumaya. What movement on that nasty fastball.

81 Gameday just marked a called strike about three feet out of the strike zone. Accurate, or no?

79 - If Drew saw Kent hesitating or tagging, he shouldn't have been going full steam around 2nd towards 3rd. That's Drew's biggest contribution to the bundle of errors committed in that sequence.

I personally am going to stop talking about or obsessing over the double play from yesterday. (Y'all can continue of course.) But I'm done. It no longer makes me feel good in a cathartic way to talk about it. Now I'm on to feeling incredibly nervous about the game tonight!

76 - ESPN clocked his three strikes to ARod at 101, 103, 103. Gameday-E says 93, 91, 90 for pitch speed when they reached the plate. I would lean towards the higher end of those two.

83 All aboard the Big Blue Roller Coaster!

85 Heh. Pass the dramamine!

76 84
Those were some of the nastiest heaters I've ever seen. Zumaya abused Giambi and A-Rod.

83- I'm with ya, UD. It's just such an interesting and unique situation that it supports much discussion. It's what's beautiful about baseball, in spite of how it hurts us Dodger fans.

I'm feeing good about tonight.

That's when Donnelly has to be the traffic cop.

coulnd't have said it better my self.

88 - "feeling"

And the Tigers lose!

Tigers take a game. Nice pitching by the youngsters and then the old guy shuts them down in the 9th.

yay Tigers!

85 But I'll get whiplash... ohww.... my sinuses...

91 - Er win.

[64, 68] Is it a tribute to human adaptability that reading Lugo's name in the line up doesn't cause that sharp pain in the chest anymore, or is because Betemit has sunk to his level? Anderson MUST be capable of playing third! OK, try Martinez. Maybe I have been underestimating Grady Little: Maybe he hates Lugo as much as I do and he is just exposing him to destroy the value a not too bright GM might put on him...But it might backfire; we offer him arbitration but no body signs him because for 3 months they've seen what a failure he is. Oh, the pain...

91 - Liar!

Now I'm on to feeling incredibly nervous about the game tonight!

isn't this great!, i love every feeling that baseball brings.

91 - In the Bizzaro World, they do.

Did anyone else notice the slowdown on the toaster as the Yanks game ended? It was as if thousands of New Yorkers all cried out four-letter words at once and then were silenced.

96 - OK, try Martinez.

I don't get this. Martinez is basically the same player as Lugo, except older, slower, worse defensively (arguably), and worse offensively.

He hit in June and July. He hasn't since. If you're choosing between those two, I'm taking Lugo each and every time.

BronxBanter cannot be the happiest place on Earth right now...

If the Tigers can split in Yankee Stadium, anything is possible. Who had them winning Game 2? Did Xeifrank?

101 - He hit in June and July.

Oops, 0-for-2. He hit in May (1.141 OPS), a little in June (.767 OPS) and then nothing else for the rest of the year.

54 I was also there in 1990. I enjoyed it considerably less than Jon did, I'd imagine. On the other hand, I went to 2 of the best parties of my college years that night. Everything is relative.

The beauty of the Play was demonstrated again this past Sunday. Every so often, some football team tries the ol' "don't go down with the ball" gambit at the end of a game, and every time, as with the Jets this week, it doesn't work. 1990 was a wacky finish, to be sure, but the Play is impossible.

102

they'll get over it, Steinbrenner will pore another 100 million in there payroll & all will be fine in NY.

103 - I think some people did. A lot of people liked the Verlander-Mussina matchup for Detroit. But if I told you that Verlander was out of the game in the fifth after giving up three runs and Mussina pitched seven innings, would you think that the Tigers would win? Go Tigers, I really can't stomach a Yankees championship on the backs of overpaying at every position.

I'm actually rooting for the Yankees simpy because any team that gets swept by the Royals to lose their division does not deserve the championship.

has baseball ever seen a thin David Wells?

103 Sort of. He had 48% chance of a split and gave the Yankees a 65% chance of winning game two.

Well, Bob pointed out at the Griddle that if it were somehow a Dodgers-Tigers WS it would mean the Dodgers had played every one of the original 8 AL teams, which would be kinda cool.

I don't have a memory of a Dodgers-Red Sox series, though; surely Bob wasn't (gasp!) mistaken?

Tigers vs A's and LA vs SD to go to the WS...that's what I am hoping for!!

Thanks Detroit for taking care of business. now the NL west needs to do their part.

i don't like that Orel Hershiser didn't get the Dodger assigment yesterday.

i hate to say it but great throw by Roberts! wow!

Detroit actually looks good in the next couple of games. In their desperate attempt to try to avoid the Wild Card, they pitched both Bonderman and Rogers on Sunday, forcing them to start Robertson in Game 1.

They got a win from Verlander's start today, and now have 2 home games started by Kenny Rogers and Jeremy Bonderman. The Yankees start the very hittable Unit and Jaret Wright.

Of course Game 5, if it gets that far, is back to Wang vs. Robertson at the Stadium.

58 I'm sort of immersed in that story.

I take it back. 1916. Brooklyn Robins v. Boston Red Sox. Ruth pitched Game 2.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/ws/yr1916ws.shtml

Lving in NYC, I listen occasionally to Mike and the Mad Dog. They have both been mocking the Tigers the last few days (Mike is a big Yankees' fan), saying that Detroit didn't have a chance to even win a game!!

111 1916, but Brooklyn was called the Robins back then; maybe that's why you don't remember it.

My feeling on Lugo is that the guy's gotta be due any second now, RIGHT?? He hasn't even hit a home run since joining the club. He's like the San Andreas fault -- quiet, quiet, quiet, and then when we least expect it, KAPOW!

That's my positive spin on it, anyway.

Speaking of due, I just read that Lofton's 0 for 11 against Glavine in his career. Coming off of yesterday's oh-fer, hopefully Kenny breaks off a couple of timely hits.

119 Another reason I might not remember it is that it was 34 years before I was born. ;)

Funny, though; I remember the 1920 WS against the Indians because of the Bill Wamsbganss (or however that's spelt) unassisted triple play against our boys, but 1916 just slipped off the chart.

108 Hey, nobody's perfect. Down with the Empire. Go Tigers! Go BLUE!

If the Padres can't beat Jeff Weaver today, they don't deserve to move on anyway.

I still can't get over this play either. I was there yesterday, and my seats on first base line gave me a perfect view of what happened. It was clear that Kent was going to be out as he rounded third base. Donnelly did not throw up a stop sign. Drew was right behind him, no stop sign. Drew threw the brakes on only when he was about five feet from Lo Duca, and then he decided to make a try for it anyway.

It was the stupidest sporting moment I've ever witnessed.

111 It was only 90 years ago.
http://tinyurl.com/hm6yh

Some guy named Babe Ruth pitched a 14 inning complete game winning 2-1. That game also started a scoreless streak that day that would be the record until Whitey Ford broke it some years later.

Ruth, who was at that time, the best left-handed pitcher in the AL, said something to the effect that although Boston lost one game in their 4-1 series win, at least they lost to a former AL pitcher (Jack Coombs), his teammate Carl Mays (who was destined to be known for beaning Ray Chapman) who lost that game was not as forgiving.

(Of course, you could replace my statement above with the words "Cards" for "Padres" and "Wells" for "Jeff Weaver"...)

I have to admit I'm kind of a sucker for Jeff Weaver; if he even becomes a league-average pitcher, his story's interesting. Nice inning right there, even if it did involve getting lucky.

To be fair, I thought both managers were equally terrible yesterday. Little, for bringing Penny in and allowing Lugo to pinch-hit, and Randolph for letting Mota bat with two runners in scoring position. Coaching catastrophe, all around.

122 - what he said.

124. Everyone needs to get over the 2nd inning of yesterday's game. Even if Drew ended up at 3rd, what is to say that Maine doesn't pitch Anderson differently? We still may only get one run out of that inning off a sac fly, so let's move past it and get some positive karma for today!

128 Fair? Fair? What are you, the mainstream media? "On the one hand, on the other hand" reporting? C'mon! ;)

Heh, was I the only one who was a little bummed we didn't resign Weaver in the off-season? Turned out to be a great non-move in hindsight, though.

Hm, I just realized that if we should advance past this round, we'll be facing Old Friends no matter what. Ex-Dodgers, everywhere!

First time posting here, have been lurking for several months. Best community of Dodger commenters I've found, thanks Jon.

Forgive me for being off topic, but on an earlier thread some nice DT posters gave recommendations for a place to watch playoffs in Florence. Would any world travelers on DT have similar suggestions for London or Manchester? I'll have a laptop & signing up for MLB.tv but I can't be 100% sure of the connection quality in various hotels in the UK.

World Series Appearances for the Dodgers

New York Yankees
1941, 1947, 1949, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956, 1963, 1977, 1978, 1981

Oakland Athletics (originally in Philadelphia)
1974, 1988

Baltimore Orioles (originally St. Louis Browns)
1966

Minnesota Twins (originally Washington Senators)
1965

Chicago White Sox
1959

Cleveland
1920

Boston Red Sox
1916

133 Ooh! Easy! I did a search for MLB UK and found this site:

http://www.baseballfan.co.uk/

Which shows that Channel 5 there had several games earlier this year. Try the forums at the site to see about playoff coverage.

132 - Heh, was I the only one who was a little bummed we didn't resign Weaver in the off-season?

Kinda, sorta. But only because he ended up getting a 1-year deal anyway. I would've preferred for him to have accepted arbitration and signed for 1-year, but it looked like an almost certainty that someone would give him a multi-year deal. This would've precluded the signing of Tomko.

Looks like it all worked out for the best anyway, except LA has Tomko for next year too.

132 No tears were shed especially since the Dodgers received two first round picks, slightly bummed that one of them, Bryan Morris is going to have TJ surgery, which means that he will have 2 years after that to prove himself before a roster decision has to be made.

107 How much does Cano make? I thought he was still under the team's control. Also uh.. Melky Cabrera probably doesnt make too much.

/devil's advocate

130

all i know is that i was PO'D & i needed to vent!!

what the hell just happened in S.D.

Man Pujols AB in gameday was like 2 seconds. Popped a single on the first pitch to score the first run of the game. He good.

Maybe not:

Pitch 1 - Foul
Pitch 2 - Foul
Pitch 3 - Ball
Pitch 4 - Ball
Pitch 5 - In play, run(s)

138 - Woo hoo, two league minimum guys.

Look at this. It stuns me everytime I look at it.

http://tinyurl.com/7hp85

Are the Pads so sure they wanted "home field advantage"?

143
Looks like the Yankees are paying Roidger Clemens roughly $1 million/year every year through 2014. What a scam...

I feel like I just walked through another dimension... I just read this on the Bronx Banter board...

"I don't think I have the stomach to not win it all again this year."

145 - Now, now... What Grimsley said to the DA was Clemens would never do PEDs.

134 The Dodgers have never played one of the expansion teams in the World Series.

Even in their playoff experiences, they have only played the following NL expansion teams:

1980 - Houston Astros (1 game playoff for division)
1981 - Houston Astros
1981 - Montreal Expos
1988 - New York Mets
2006 - New York Mets

They also have played the following original NL franchises in the playoffs.

1974 - Pittsburgh
1977 - Philadelphia
1978 - Philadelphia
1983 - Philadelphia
1985 - St. Louis
1995 - Cincinatti
1996 - Atlanta
2004 - St. Louis

147 - And we know what an upstanding young man Mr Grimsley is.

146
If you're not with the Yankees, you're with the terrorists

We've kind of drifted from Jon's original point here, but let's face it: Little is nuts for wanting to start Penny in Game Four. Why is it that we have a better read on his personnel than he does? You start Lowe in Game Four and then takes your chances with Kuo (tonight's performance permitting) with game five.

It may be just me, but it seems that Grittle has walked on a egg-shells a bit with Penny ever since the famous incident where Penny got upset for being taken out before finishing the 5th inning

Consider me very irritated that the Padres offense finally reverts to the mean after playing .700 for a month at our expense.

135 Ooh, thanks! Just checked the site and their form lists at least 2 London pubs that show MLB.

154 That sounds a pretty fun night out. I watched the Bengals/49ers Superbowl in London in (I think it was) '89. A real blast.

153--no kidding, right? We should be at the Stadium now, watching game two against the Cardinals...

If you're not with the Yankees, you're with the terrorists

if you're with the Yanks the terrorist have won. :oP

143 - and what's scary is that starting next year or 2008, all revenue sharing is off (provided the next labor agreement is the same as the current one) because of their new stadium. Leave it to the Yankees....

151 - maybe Little's forestalling an inevitable rotation collapse that would occur during the NLCS.

Weaver looks suprisingly good today.

153
The Padres (who were better on the road than at home for the season) played 17 of their last 23 on the road

160 - this may be the best postseason game he's ever pitched.

Weaver looks suprisingly good today

The Padres OPS'ed .706 at home in 2006

Let's all let yesterday go and flow with Kuo today. Does that make any sense? :)

163
And opponents OPS'ed .703

Translation: PetCo makes pitchers look good (though not skinny, as David Wells evinces)

this may be the best postseason game he's ever pitched.

this may be the first time you ever answered any of my posts. :o)

166 - What is the sound of one hand typing? :-)

161 Yeah with Josh Bard batting cleanup! I'm not buyin it.

Weaver is looking Dodgeresk.

Lowe and Kuo and then have the Old Guy go.

Sorry if this has been brought up on another thread, but yesterday's isn't the all-time worst Dodger baserunning adventure.

There were characters in the earth in those days:

http://tinyurl.com/p2tep

164 That's positively Vic the Brick-ish.

171 Maybe this is how the nickname Dodgers was chosen...

Baserunners piled up at one base trying to dodge tags... ;-)

Jeff Weaver's career postseason ERA goes down to 5.66 from 9.72. Today's game was his best postseason appearance ever.

170 - Lowe and Kuo and pray for snow.

175 I was thinking that too but decided to work Maddux in there.

Though it seems unfair (especially since ESPN later showed that the foul ball Pujols hit touched the screen but no umpire saw it), that sequence which led to the Pujols home run may have set back the Padres for these playoffs.

I think this was Weaver's best start all season considering the circumstances. He only gave up 2 hits. Walks, now whats another story.

Hey! Somebody figured out what to do with Weaver -- pull him after five innings!

Here, a haiku:

Kuo, please go seven
Make it easy on Little
Lugo hits one out!

Those ADD meds the Cardinal trainers are giving him worked wonders today. They obviously kicked in after the first inning, however.

174 - oops, make that a 6.09 ERA.

179 - You have a jesting tone, yet you're dead on!

I am far more unhappy with Little using Penny in relief yesterday than I am with Little starting Penny in Game 4. Didn't we have a lot of talk about starting vs. relieving last month when the question was, should Stults start or Tomko? If Penny's back is feeling good, I don't see why he shouldn't have a fine start in Game 4. If he doesn't, we have Bills, Sele and Tomko ready to step in. If Game 5 is needed, and it probably will be, I'd rather have a rested Lowe. If somehow we can win the next three, I'd rather save Lowe for the Cardinals.

if i were a closer i rather have Gagne's last name over Loopers but that's just me.

It is interesting listening to Luis Gonzalez, he's says that the Padres look dead (which I think every team does whenever they are not hitting) but that it seems like they are waiting for someone (maybe he means someone else) to do something.

You have a jesting tone
Yet you're dead on, Linkmeister
Five, and Weaver's done.

Sorry Jon, but I finished your haiku for you.

187 So you are really Vic the Brick.

37 A bit late on this one, but...

50 years a Dodger Fan
"I just saw the replay of THE PLAY on MLB Radio. It's better than what I saw on TV. "

==Boy, you must have one great radio! If you really did that, contact me and we'll make a LOT of money. :-)

Our fellow posters on Ducksnorts are spouting about possible conspiracies ranging from ratings (a common small-market claim) to the umpires getting back at Sandy Alderson for his years of supervising the umpires at MLB.

Has there ever been a team like the Padres that is so cursed in their own ballpark? Their good road record suggests they might really be a much better team than anyone thinks, except they have to play half their games in a park they can't win in.

It's sort of the flip side of the Rockies' situation of a few years ago, where their dominance at home masked their essential mediocrity.

I'm wondering if there's a stat out there that might show us other teams with lousy home records that gained a postseason berth by virtue of an excellent road record? And are there any other teams where that's a consistent pattern?

Cursed is a pretty strong statement, I can't believe that Kevin Towers and others who run the club did not have any idea of what kind of park they were building.

For the first 5 months of the season, the Padres could not hit at home and even some of their wins at the end of the year were like 2-1 or 4-2, very low scoring affairs which allowed them to scratch out a run at the end and hand the ball to their bullpen.

191
Not sure this counts as a "stat", but the Tigers were the only other team to make the playoffs with a better road record than home record. However, if you doubled their home record, they still would have made the playoffs.

Grady thinks Penny is throwing well? what is he like when he is throwing badly. The last month or two he will walk a few men in his first inning, and then allow a hit or two. This is consistant, and happens more often then not.

I thought Maddox was pitching tonight. Must mean he only has 3 days rest. That can't be right can it. If he was rested only a madman wouldn't throw him.

180

I'll be happy if Kuo gives us 6. Anything after that is bonus.

Hope Lugo saved his hits for post season heroics.

will Looper come in & close it out for the Cards??

194 I always thought Maddux was going to pitch in Game 3 opening up at Dodger Stadium, it just makes too much sense due to his record at Dodger Stadium not to pitch him there.

But had he pitched today, he would be on normal 4-day rest since he last pitched on Saturday.

196

or atleast keep the Pads at bay? oops 3rd beer mistake.

194 - Little wants Maddux at home, and Kuo in Shea where he's had recent success.

199

makes sense to me

104 How many AB did Martinez get--or not get--from June on, especially after the arrival of Lugo?

Lugo seems to be well regarded by GMs, and maybe something good will come from his being a Dodger. Maybe he's better than Martinez.

But IMO he hasn't done anything as a Dodger that Martinez couldn't have done as well or better, certainly cheaper.

Supposedly Colletti wanted Lugo as Kent injury insurance, since he was trading Izzy. Kent insurance--Martinez--was already on the roster.

I agree with a comment which said Lugo is overdue. Tonight would be a real good time to begin paying that bill ....

Anyone know why Weaver was removed after 5 when he was pitching a shutout. Did LaRussa know that he pushed his luck with Weaver and took him out sooner than later.

Maybe Grady should take some notes because his tendency is wait little too long before he replaces a pitcher.

Jeez, is this the same Cardinals team with no bullpen? Wha happened?

I guess PetCo happened.

202 pushed his luck

you answered you're own question

I really don't understand starting Lugo. He's done nothing with the Dodgers. He also is a worse hitter against lefties than he is against righties. You don't play guys because they are due. You play them because they have played well. Martinez has had a couple of big hits recently, including yesterday. That alone should get him a start.

201 - Bringing value into the equation (wrt salary) is moot; they're both on the team now. Not arguing about the acquisition. Just who is the better option for playing time between the two.

Anything Martinez can do, Lugo can do better.

203 Lots of K's in there in the late innings tho.

They have set the times for the weekend games at Dodger Stadium.

Saturday - 4:35 p.m. PDT - Stay away from the Pasadena Freeway that day.
Sunday - 1:05 p.m. PDT

It is certainly possible that if the Dodgers are the only team playing on Sunday, that I could see them moving that game to late afternoon as well.

195 - Well it'll certainly be interesting to see what Little does if Kuo's gassed in the sixth, in a tied/tight game. Who's gonna be the bridge to Broxton & Saito? My money's on Tomko.

208 I got this from Yahoo Sports, MLB.com nor the Dodgers website have the times posted as yet.

209 I think James Loney should come in to pitch then. He's a lefty with a good arm, after all. Maybe they'll swing at his stuff.

208 - Is that 100 percent sure?

205 - True. I'd personally rather have Martinez in there today, but I think back to an article I read the other day (yesterday?) that touted Little as a manager who plays hunches. Maybe he knows something none of us do.

And since pitching Penny yesterday was obviously one hunch that didn't pan out... you figure Little's gotta be due, right?

211 - Hahahah. WAIT. He's a lefty you say? That might not be a bad idea after all. At the very least no one can say he doesn't have enough power at his position.

Make of it what you will, but Lugo is hitting .294 against Glavine lifetime [5 for 17]. And if you're looking for a HR from him, simply consider that none of his 5 hits off Glavine were for extra bases. Oh, and he pinch hit yesterday because he was 1 for 1 against Moto at the time.

One of the things that is strange about Little is that earlier in the season he seemed refreshingly flexible as a manager. Two examples that spring to mind are the bullpen, where his open-mindedness early on allowed players like Saito, Broxton and Beimel to become established in their roles, and affording ample playing time to rookies like Martin and Etheir. But, in the last part of the season, he seems to have become inflexible, often ignoring results when making decisions. For example, Lugo has done nothing to deserve any playing time, especially over Martinez or Saenz, yet he keeps running him out there. In addition, the Penny situation has become somewhat bizarre in that there is obviously something wrong with him, yet Little keeps throwing him out there, seemingly ignoring the reality of what he is seeing.

206 Lugo very well may be better than Martinez. He just hasn't shown that as a Dodger...maybe he's trying too hard.

Agreed that mention of salary muddies the water. It's not a consideration once a player is on the roster and a lineup is being made out.

Let's hope this is Lugo's breakout night as a Dodger. It couldn't come at a better time.

you guys think Baseball Tonight/there writters will be as happy today as other days?

206 But he hasn't done it. Since he came to the Dodgers Lugo is hitting .219 with an OPS of .545 with no home runs and 10 RBI in 146 at bats. In 30 more at bats Martinez is hitting .278 with an OPS of .703, 2 home runs and 24 RBI. Martinez has also struck out less and walked more than Lugo. I think Lugo is a better player than his Dodger numbers indicate but he hasn't shown it for whatever reason. Anyone in a three month slump gets to ride the pine.

i just love how there tone changes with a Yankee loss. i can smell the bias.

Just a week ago, I thought the Astros could be sitting in first place with Clemens pitching in one game while Jeff Weaver was pitching in the other. What happened, the Cards won and the Astros lost and then the Cardinals ultimately hung on.

Now they have outscored the Padres 7-1 and taken the first 2 games in San Diego, which next to Oakland's 2-0 lead, is the most surprising series so far. And probably it is even more frustrating for Padre fans since most "experts" had this series ending in 4 if not 3 games with the Padres on road to a possible World Series.

In my mind, there are only 3 options for 3rd base against lefties:

Saenz, for his bat.
Lugo, for his glove.
Betemit, if he's considered the fulltime starter at 3B.

Martinez is the ultimate "hunch" guy, because he's never shown any ability whatsoever to hit. At least Lugo, up until he put a Dodger uniform on, was an above-average hitter for an infielder.

206 Including:
1. Strike out
2. Make error
3. Make base running blunder
Except for possibly playing shortstop, Martinez can do everything else as well. Compare their career statam not a flukey 3 months.

Brynes hair is scaring me!!

218 - Anyone in a three month slump gets to ride the pine.

Well, Ramon Martinez is hitting .167 with a .437 OPS (!) after the all-star break.

Is there a Plan C?

Game chat is open!

Doesn't a manager's hunch fall under the "Gambler's Fallacy" category that Bob mentioned?

Hahah, I laugh at the misfortunes of the Padres. Every time Wells loses a game, an angel gets its wings. I'm forever happy that we "lost out" on the Wells sweepstakes and "settled" for Maddux.

223 Byrnes always reminds me of the cartoon character 'Freekazoid'.

222 - Bringing career stats in doesn't exactly bolster the argument for Martinez.

228 - I thought Byrnes made some ok points when I watched him yesterday. I kept waiting for him to drop an obscenity or two though, forgetting he was on TV or something.

224 Could LaRoche have done worse? Oh, I forgot; he's a rookie and not to be trusted. Now when he's a 'seasoned veteran' of 36 or 37 years old, with maybe 60% of his present abilities, we can use him.

231 - I agree in spirit, but LaRoche needed to be playing every day. With the Betemit trade, there wasn't a place for him to do so at the big club.

Also, I think the fact that LaRoche hasn't had a single major league at bat might have made him, y'know, not quite ready for playoff prime time -- but maybe next year!

233 - I figured he meant, like, in July. He's got a pretty banged up shoulder right now, so he can barely wave goodbye, let alone hit a gapper in the playoffs.

234 Ah, that's true. Hopefully we won't all be waving goodbye by the weekend. ;-)

I still think Betemit should get some more ABs vs. lefties, but I guess this isn't the time to ... experiment. Or play Saenz at 3B - he's really not that bad there, even if he doesn't have the mobility of Lugo.

Anyhoo... see you all later!