I wonder if there are statistics on how many runners we've had thrown out at home this year. There's something wrong with either the players not picking up the coach's signs or the coach's judgment.

very painful loss

I had trouble following today's game as the internet was down most of the day and no radio reception. What did the 3rd base coach do that was bad? What was the situation and what happened? Thanks.
vr, Xei

All of Jon's concerns about usage of Lugo and Penny came true today.

Let's hope for better results tomorrow.

No more Penny sighting or even Lugo unless for defense or pinch running.

3 - the assumption is probably that this was the fault of the third base coach for waving both Kent and Drew home. I'm not sure that's true.

With Penny, the issue will be how was his back, did he get loose
At this point, I don't care what he says. He said something that resulted in Grady trusting him today and he was the same pitcher who's been throwing garbage recently. He's done. Shut him down.

Grady did a very poor job of managing today, but he still has at least 2 more games to redeem himself. Playing Olmedo Saenz at 3B instead of Lugo tomorrow would be a good start.

5. Thanks, but I want to know the situation.
Buehler? Buehler??
vr, Xei

If there was anything gained in the Monday Night Homerama game, it appears that this club really has picked up its ability to have good at bats in late innings to come back. If they were successful today, they would have had 4 comeback wins out of their last 6 games after trailing by 3 runs, something that they had not shown any ability to do during the season.

So its one thing if we had lost 4-1 and was shutdown by the Mets bullpen, but since we put up 5 runs on the best bullpen in the league and had the tying run on in the 9th with Mr. Hometown Hero (sorry Jackie) at the plate, (I could hear him now talking about the guys who got the hits before him so he would have the opportunity to bring the run home), I say tough loss, shake it off, and lets play hard like this tomorrow. Hopefully Delgado turns human against Kuo and we can come home with a split. I think at least all of L.A. and ESPN would appreciate one competitive series.

They just showed the "play" from an angle where you could see Donnelly. He waved Kent home but didn't even look at Drew. JD apparently went on his own. So Donnelly is wrong for sending Kent but I think Drew was boneheaded all on his own.

Two runners tagged out at home within two seconds of each other--you don't often see that in a ballgame. It would remind me of something out of bugs bunny (you know where a batter gets three strikes on the same pitch) if it weren't so horrific.

8 2nd inning, Kent on 2nd Base and Drew on 1st. Martin hits a fly to deep right, landing at the base of the wall. Kent apparently thinks Shawn Green has a chance to catch it, and gets a very late start. Donnelly waves Kent around 3rd, and also waves Drew around, who is right behind Kent. Green relays the ball into Valentin, who throws to LoDuca, and LoDuca tags out both Kent and Drew, for the first two outs of the inning.

8 ESPN is gonna replay that for the rest of the day. I've seen it on SportsCenter three times already.

It looked like Drew kept running with his head down, not seeing any signal Donnelly may have made to stop him at third.

Kent should have flattened Loduca on principle alone.

8 It's a little painful to keep describing. Suffice it to say that two runners were thrown out at the plate on the same play. I'm sure you'll be able to catch it on the highligts. Like a thousand times.

At least this was the Dodgers team we all know and love. Grady is obviously not a big-game manager.

Martin hit a ball deep to right field, Kent and Drew tried to score from second and first respectively and both managed to get thrown out at home. I couldnt tell whether Kent was able to mow down Lo Duca like he should have and whether Drew should have put the brakes on and gone back to 3rd.

http://tinyurl.com/euvlv

Here's an AP story specifically on the play. I get the impression Drew was so close behind Kent arriving at 3rd that he saw Kent's GO sign.

12. wow, that sounded awful. Kent should've been half way and scored easily. Then the 3rd base coach sends him for an out... then Drew tries to score too??? Unbelievable. Glad I didn't see it. Thanks for the description all. vr, Xei

Don't forget Kent's laconic relay throw that allowed a lumbering Delgado to score from second. And his lack of hustle on a ball hit to the hole. And his dumb error on a soft Reyes liner.

And never forget the lessons of Brad Penny's 7th inning. Which is to say: Don't pitch Brad Penny in the 7th inning of a tie game.

16 That is a thoughtless, throw away inaccurate post. Would be swell if it you took it elsewhere.

I don't understand why Kent thought Green had a chance to catch the ball in the first place. That was clearly an erroneous judgment on his part. There was never any point at which there was a reason to think Green was gonna catch the ball.

BTW: Does anyone know what Kent's salary is next year...?

Don't worry... the Dodgers will win tomorrow.
vr, Xei

21 - Same to you. Please, God. Same to you.

5 Drew, took a look back at the 3rd Base Coach after LoDuca tagged him. His face looked somewhat perplexed.

I think there is no way Drew could see what was happening in RF. Since Donnelly didn't put up a stop sign, Drew just kept on going.

What compelled Little to use an injured starting pitcher in a tie game?

7 - Starting the Tomato means not having him for a spot pinch-hit against Wagner in the 9th ... I don't think you can afford to start him.

29. Five at bats vs 1 possible high leverage at bat. hmmm. The only thing I'd worry about with Saenz is his defense, not a possible late inning pinch hitting appearance that may or may not even come to truition. vr, Xei

I think Drew saw the third base coach waving Kent home and thought he was being waved home.

5 scareduck
Yeah, I wish we knew for sure.

13 Linkmeister
ESPN will show the end of the play over and over, but lack the sense to show the full story.

I don't think blaming a guy with one pinch hit at bat for today's loss is fair, I am not a Lugo defender but to me he was put in a situation unique to any player on the team, he was obtained as backup for a position he does not play.

He is not Marlon Anderson or Ramon Martinez who are primarily bench guys who occasionally get in games until the deal he was one of 30 regularly playing shortstops in the majors. Its not that he has gun to Grady's head and forces him to play him, it is Grady's choice like it was his choice to stay with Anderson instead of Ethier.

I do think that it is one reason why most benches are comprised with veteran players, they can handle the schedule of not knowing when they will play or not play.

It appears that Julio Lugo has never been able to adjust and you combine that with a new league, probably sets him back further.

Again, he is also a professional and if he wants a no-trade clause in his next contract, he can try and negotiate it but he is a Dodger now and there is nothing he can do now but compete and play hard.

Saying, that whether having someone like Loney or Ethier batting in the 7th was probably a better choice but in the end unless you think anyone else would have gotten on so Nomar could drove him anothr run remains to be seen.

In the end, I just think this board has been pretty critical of a guy who I don't think has ever dogged it or mailed it in but I am sure he is not happy with how he has played for the Dodgers.

Jeff Kent:

signed extension 3/06

* $2M signing bonus (paid in installments)

* 07:$9M, 08:$9M club option ($0.5M buyout)
* 2008 option guaranteed with 550 plate appearances in 2007
* additional $2.35M in performance bonuses & escalators, 2007-08

Also, Kent should have a least pulled a Delwyn Young in the second inning. Then at least Drew would have scored. When your out by more than 10 feet, trying to slide is futile. A veteran like Kent should know that.

I just realized/remembered that Kent is not only signed for 2007, but quasi-signed for 2008.

Wow.

I want to bring attention to a fact that nobody's mentioned: This was the first postseason game (in front of 50,000+ hostile fans)for a lot of players. Broxton and Martin, for example. These two young KIDS were incredible.

34
Thanks, Kevin Arno. BTW: You're not from Dunsmuir, CA by any chance...?

28 - He flipped a coin. Unfortunately it was a pe....

I'll stop. That's too easy.

There are several reasons Penny went in. First, it's possible they think he's healed enough to pitch an inning. Secondly, it's possible they think he's healed well enough to start and this was his 3rd day bullpen session. Finally, they may have wanted to see if he was healed enough to pitch.

"Struggling Brad Penny is brought in to relieve in the bottom of the seventh, instead of Jonathan Broxton (we saw this coming), walks two and allows two runs."

Me, I'd move the parenthetical phrase to the end of the sentence...

That was a tough loss—one of those losses that affects you physically, you know? I can't help thinking about what could have been, but I also want to try and dwell on the positive. Betemit had one of his best days at the plate in weeks, especially against Wagner in the 9th. Furcal looked better than Reyes at the plate, and matched him with a stolen base. Anderson came through again, and Martin didn't look like he had any postseason jitters. We didn't get blown out; barring the instantly infamous baserunning blunder in the 2nd, we might take this game. I could very easily have seen us scoring 4 or 5 in that inning and knocking Maine out very early.

We still have a few tomorrows left. I'm going to try to be optimistic a little while longer.

16/25 Same person? Guess so.

If everyone wants to yell and scream fine, but I just think it doesn't achieve much.

I do think that given that Tomko (okay prepare to be lit up) had done okay over his last few appearances but at least he has done it before should have been chosen before Penny. If Penny wasn't used before the 6th inning, I don't think you use him today.

28 what, his era was only 6 since the break and he has all that postseason relife exp as a Marlin. Yah right.

That calls for a real men of genius commecial.

"Mr. bad pitching decesion postseason manager guy"

25 - ???

42 - No. Definitely not.

42 Greg S

Strange no matter what.

41 Well said. Everyone looked pretty good today, except perhaps Kent on D, but you cant have everything now can you?

45
Steve is unpredictable, though predictable in his unpredictability

Boy, the guy manages the team to the playoffs, one guy does not perform and he is forever scarred. If everyone is going to be this way during the playoffs, I'm glad I will be at the games over the weekend instead of at DT.

I moment I saw Penny take the mound, I knew the Dodgers were goin to lose.

The loss of Beimel has already cost the Dodgers a game.

46 I am fairly sure they are not the same person.

For the record, I thought leaving Pedro in was defensible, I have no clue how most people thought about it at the time, and I find all the hyperbole regarding Grady and Pedro to be childish, smug, and the kind of thing reserved for manic Boston fans.

There, I've said it. Of course, everybody in the world just knew it was the wrong decision, so continue to pile on Grady for one pitching decision.

was anyone expecting more than a split in New York?

I know I wasn't.

50 Awww... But you'll still read the grousing (or cheering) when you get home, won't you?

Everyone looked pretty good today

Except Grady Little and whoever the baserunning coach is.

Keep up the hope. Let's not forget, in 1988 the Dodgers also lost the first game in New York. (Recognizing that it was a seven game series.)

However, a split is required at this point.

Criticize Grady for bringing in Penny, lord knows I am.

Harkening back to Pedro? Come on, let's be a little better than the millenarian Red Sox fans.

50. it's all a part of the big game atmosphere. In big games, people are going to be more critical of errors in judgement. Take the good with the bad, and let's root on our team to a game #2 win. vr, Xei

I went back and looked through the comments and there was barely an eyebrow raised when Penny came in. The guy had to wade through Beltran, Delgado, Wright, Floyd. I think there's way too much hindsight going on. If he whips through that inning no one's calling Grady an idiot. Plus Penny got squeezed on both ball 4's- the Floyd called third strike was further out of the zone than either ball 4.

This would be a good time to start an eleven game win streak.

60 - I'm not even calling Grady an idiot now. I just felt, before the game, that this situation might come up, and I would rather attack with Broxton an inning early than hope to get to him.

56 Gagne55

I can't fault Little for this loss. Penny must get in the flow of things before he enters the ballgame. Two walks is inexcusable.

I was only hoping for a split, I was just hoping the game we would win would be today so that there would be less pressure tommorrow if that makes any sense. Now we are in a must win situation.

One of our problems with the bullpen is that we have too many starters in our bullpen (Sele, Hendrickson, Penny, Billingsley, Tomko).

50

I'll be at the stadium too, which brings up the question: when on earth is MLB expected to announce the Dodger Stadium game times? What's the hold up? LA people have to make plans.

53 Everyone in the world knew that it was the wrong decision because Fox flashed Pedro >90 and <90 pitch ERA, BAA, K, and BB numbers when he reached that mark. For the record, I was sitting in a room with about half dozen Sox fans and a Yankees fans. The Sox fans, and everyone else in the dorm were, screaming to take him out, whereas the Yankee fan (and me, because I wanted extra baseball) were cheering to leave him in. When that game tied up, it sounded like the dogs of Hell had been let loose upstairs. Men cried and screamed. Women cursed. Beer bottle took flight down the halls.

So yes. At the time, everone I was in earshot of thought it was a bad call.

53 I did too. The alternatives were lousy.

I think Jon's post echoed my feelings about the game exactly. When Nomar came to bat in the 9th, I was thinking that the Dodgers have played a terrible game and yet they still had a chance to win it with one swing of the bat. I know that close does not count in baseball (and especially in the playoffs) but it was nice to see that the team had the heart to make a game of it after that terrible blunder in the 2nd inning. When they were down 2-1 and then 4-1, I was afraid that one play was going to cost them the series. Now, although I am disappointed about today's lost, I am still optimistic about the team's chances in this series.

One correction to Jon's post: I think you inadvertently typed the word "forward" before the word "lateraled."

Odalis Penny strikes again!

I actually agree with you Greg in regards to Pedro. I was just trying to be funny. Plus I love those real men of genius commercials. There is nothing worse than the feeling Gagne55 had because I had it to. I don't mind loosing or even having two guys thrown out at home plate on the same play. It's just when you put someone in a situation they have not even had the chance to succeed in all year, at a pivotal time in the game; just after we regained momentum I just do not understand it.

Honestly if Penny was mowing people down all September as a starter and then was asked to pitch a 7th inning in the playoffs I would have still questioned it. But bad performance, bad back and situation you have not been in since 2003 is just poor managing. It goes to show what Grady thinks of Tomko

59 Its one thing to be critical, its another to throw a label on someone because they don't work out.

There are probably only two managers/coaches who have enough goodwill to deflect any bulets for playoff decisions, Joe Torre and Phil Jackson, and even they get criticized when their teams lose.

45 - ah, the mysteries of Steve. But my guess is that he means he finds himself frustrated by Grady Little's apparent misuse of the bullpen in the postseason continues anon, undisturbed from his 2003 appearance; the move to make was obvious to everyone save Little, and yet he did the exact wrong thing everyone feared (2003: leave Pedro in; 2006: put Penny in).

67 For the record, I think the Penny move was slightly defensible. You have to see if he can do anything useful and he did carve through a formidable lineup in a two inning appearance at the all-start game.

Our middle relief again reared it's ugly head today. I believe the middle relief is going to be a key point in whether we win this or not.

The Mets actually have relief pitchers performing in relief.

Okay, storm clouds are passing, though if I knew any Mets fans, I would stay away from them for a day or two.

At this point, with Beimel out for the series, if the starter can give us six innings, we should use Broxton and Saito to pitch innings 7-9 in any game that we lead, is tied, or that we are down by a run in. End of story.

75 - The Mets actually have relief pitchers performing in relief.

Fat lot of good it did them. The Mets' pen gave up four runs. Ours only gave up two.

62 Jon for the record I'd have had Broxton start the 7th too. Bringing in Penny was a bit cutesy especially given they're both RH power arms. I just don't think it was a game-blowing decision. As discussed here Penny did have 28k/7bb in Sept with a .400 BABIP.

75 Would that be the guy who gave up 3 runs or the closer that gave up 1 and had the winning run at the plate (who had done few things recently) in the ninth.

Not to be funny but I think Willie was happy to squeeze this out but if he has to keep pitching almost 5 innings a game, we'll see what happens.

77 Gene Mauch is reborn.

29 But you forget, we'll then have Little's all-time favorite player to pinch, er make that strike out, the magnificent Julio Lugo. We have an idiot for a manager. But most of them are....

74 I think the biggest mistake was putting Penny in with nobody warming up in case he proved to be ineffective.

Just watching the play for the first time on mlb.com and the sick thing is listening to Joe Morgan giggling throughout.

But I can't decide if it's sick because it's Joe Morgan, or if it's because the play is so sick to watch. Probably both.

75 Brad Penny's second relief appearance, again, I would have gone to someone else but he was not part of the bullpen at all this year so I would be careful to blame this on those guys.

69 - There's no dispute about there being forward laterals (plural) on the Play. Whether that fact is relevant to something that ended up being bigger than all of us, you can debate.

I wonder if Grady would have gone to Broxton with a lead but stayed with Penny in a tie. I'm not agreeing with that but it would seem to fit his philosophy. Let the innings guy pitch in a tie game on the road, late innings. Don't go for the kill until you have the lead.

After viewing it seems pretty clear to me that Kent didn't know Drew was behind him (I think he would have moved out of the way sooner than he did) and that Drew either ran through a stop sign or Donnelly didn't stop him (Donnelly is block on the angle).

Wow. Never seen nothin' like it.

Hope we get 'em tomorrow.

Where's Maury Wills when you need him? The Dodgers made four separate inexcusable baserunning mistakes today, although only two came back to bite them.

1) Donnelly waving in Kent
2) Drew running home
3) Anderson half-assing it to second on his double and almost getting thrown out
4) Betemit trying to advance an extra base down by two in the ninth and almost getting thrown out.

86 69 Hmm... Immoral or Immortal 21? Fight!

Second guessing Little seems to be a little off-point, in that half of his controversial moves actually worked.

For most of this season, a 4-1 lead late, or a 6-4 lead in the ninth was a very safe thing for the opposition. There has to be some good reason the team now battles to get back into these kinds of games.

As for the Penny decision: Broxton is a rookie. Having him pitch two innings from behind in a playoff game might've struck Little as too much to ask. Penny is a big game pitcher, or at least he was at one time. Maybe Little needed to see what would happen. Now he's seen it. I doubt he makes that mistake again. I'd rather they just let Penny start game 4, and have Bills throwing behind him from the beginning.

So did I miss anything?

When I saw Penny, I said "oh no." When Little came out after the second walk, I thought, "well at least he realized the experiment failed."

To be fair though, Delgado would have grounded into a double play if it wasn't for that damn shift.

I'm not the same person as #25, and am well-used to internet contretemps caused by my thoughtless commenting. Forgive my anti-Grady transgression but, you know, it was an upsetting game.

91 Why not just start Billingsley? The kid has pitched well for the entire second half, and he can't start over Penny who is obviously not right? If Kuo can go, then why not Bills?

On this Lugo thing, somehow they won 38 games out of 57 since he got here and they won a lot of those when he played. Now he was no Marlon Anderson or Wilson Betemit but if he was a such a drag, how did they do it.

I know that's a stupid arguement but if you can't give one player credit for wins in spite of his being on the team than I don't think you can blame him for losses either.

Julio Lugo was part of the 25 man roster during the most successful part of the season, whatever he did or did not do apparently was enough to win 2 out of 3 games for the last 2 months of the season.

Lets remember that for most of the 16 out of 17 wins, Kent and Garciaparra were out and Lugo played a lot during that time. Again, he did not have the offensive impact that others have had for the Dodgers but it was enough to propel this team into a position to go for the postseason.

And on the Saenz, with a lefthanded power closer, I don't think Olmedo will see anyone else in this series except Wagner or maybe Oliver if the situation calls for it.

93 - That could be said for two of Delgado's singles, but something tells me it wouldn't have helped on the homer.

88 Even if he didn't know Drew was trailing, his best chance of being safe when the throw beats him by that much is to go Delwyn Young on LoDuca.

93 Gagne55
To be fair though, Delgado would have grounded into a double play if it wasn't for that damn shift.

If it wasn't for the shift, Delgado wouldn't have it it the other way.

97 I was referring to the hit Penny gave up.

Is there a rule that penalizes a player (Kent) if that player unnecessarily charges into a player (LoDuca) in order to help another player (Drew) following him to score? Can the umpire call both players out?

98 - Agreed. It was a lame slide.

Eric Byrnes is coming up on BBTN... (???)

99 - I don't know about that. Let's look at where he was pitched: low and away. The one ball that came in on him he hit over the fence. It really doesn't make sense to shift on a hitter if you're going to pitch him low and away. Of course he'll hit it through the defense.

To be fair, Lugo battled in his at-bat, and was called out on a pitch that was closer to being in the dirt than it was to the strike zone.

Indeed. Delgado burned the shift twice and it helped zero times. Perhaps Delgado is not a player to put shift on against.

96 Now I'll really p everyone off.

Given how Kent played today, wouldn't the Dodgers be better off with Lugo at second base and batting 8th, with Kent on the bench in a kind of Saenz-ish role? It's obvious that Kent's ailments make him nothing like the second baseman he normally is. And he's a liability on the basepath.

Is there a rule that penalizes a player (Kent) if that player unnecessarily charges into a player (LoDuca) in order to help another player (Drew) following him to score? Can the umpire call both players out?

In theory yes, but umpires pretty much let runners barrel over anybody if you can touch the base you are going to.

Is Lofton playing tomorrow against Glavine?

109 He better. Lefties hits Glavine better than righties do.

96 And if we'd picked up A-Rod, we'd still have had the same record, we wouldn't have won even one more game. None of us could say for sure, of course. But it is probably possible to plug in A-Rod's or any other thirdbaseman's numbers and run that many game simulations to see how the won and lost changes. I cannot ever be convinced that sticking in even a .250 hitter instead of Lugo would have got us 3 or 4 more wins this year. Lugo has not shown one single thing to encourage an intelligent manager to play him. And play him. And play him....

108

Then maybe Kent should have rolled over LoDuca unless he didn't know if Drew was coming right behind him. If he knew, then that was bad move.

The strange thing about putting Penny in for relief, was that Grady did the exact same thing right before the All-Star break, and even then Penny couldnt get through an inning.

Brad Penny IS NOT a reliever.

I think the game was lost when you only get 1 run off of John Maine. He's one of the worst Mets starters. They essentially threw their #5 against our #1, and beat the team.

I'd be surprised if the series isnt a sweep at this point.

107 Short answer: No

Long answer: No, because he's still one of the better hitters on the team. No, because the error on the basepaths could have been covered up if the third base coach had, you know, coached. Finally, no, because the hits that went through his position got through because of pitching against the shift.

107 No, I'll agree with you: Kent is done, stick a fork in him.

107 dzzrtRatt

I don't see how you can take his bat out of the line-up. I agree that his defense is worse than usual.

that shift really worked good on delgado. he goes 1-5 and hits into 2 DP's and the dodgers win if they they use that retarded shift.

10
They just showed the "play" from an angle where you could see Donnelly. He waved Kent home but didn't even look at Drew.

How is this not a problem? Where else would a third base coach be looking?

I simply don't get saving Saenz for the 9th. Why not put him in a postition to end the game long before then?

107 - He still hits.

117 MMSMikey

You're assuming that line drive off of Penny wouldn't have put a hole in Furcal trying to stop it. :)

113
I thought that Maine was sorta the 3-4 starter and that he was slated to start the fourth game of the series? Now that's Oliver Perez's spot. If it goes that far, that is.

122 That is, Maine is the third or fourth best starter w/ No Pedro or El Duque.

I'm looking foward to a young team that doesn't need crutches, but I doubt management will tolerate young players.

119 He may only get one or two at bats against Glavine before he goes out, the Met's starters had a few less innings pitched than the Dodgers this year so Willie is not hesitant to pull pitchers and then mix or match. Grady is going to hit whoever plays 3B at number 8 so if he played Olmedo, where would he bat maybe 6th in the lineup, I don't think he would see 3 at bats against Glavine unless he was pitching well. Once Nomar became established at 1B, it pretty much sent Olmedo to the bench and when you add the fact that he is only RH power on the bench, he is simply not going to start.

124 Its pretty evident that this team is microcosm of how Ned likes to build a team, while Kenny and Nomar maybe gone, it would not surprise to see some other veterans added somewhere.

So while guys like Loney or Kemp may get their opportunities next year, don't look for the Arizona D-Backs out there either.

Kent is hitting very well right now and is probably worth his defensive and running liability. But it's close. Saens can hit too but we don't start him for those same reasons. In the end, I don't think we can lose Kent's bat.
We'll just have to play a tad better tomorrow. I don't think that's asking too much.

That was a bizarre play, but the real gaffe was using Brad Penny in the 7th. Not only was he used, but he was left in well after he had established that he was still the crappy pitcher he has been for about 3 months. I can see using him, but to not have a tighter leach... ugh. The the mistakes together just hurt, because we could have/should have been in the drivers seat.

124 You mean guys like Martin, Ethier, Broxton, Betemit, Billingsley, Aybar, and Loney? Yeah, your probably right.

I just hope Ned doesnt think he can get lucky every year with the mediocre stop gap vet that plays beyond his capilities: (Anderson, Alomar, Lucille, Bemeil).

At some point, you have to go with the kids. If the kids develop, it doesnt really seem near as lucky or chancy as hoping for a 1.000+ OPS out of next year's version of Marlon Anderson.

WHY BRAD PENNY? WHY? WHY?

113 Where is that joy of 2 weeks ago, seems like in 1988, we lost a game 1 at home with a guy who had not been scored against for a month.

Now did it take some weird stuff like Scioscia hitting a homer of Gooden and then Kirk Gibson hitting 2 homers in about 12-14 hours to help win 2 games, yes it did but losing game 1 on the road does not spell doom.

132 As I'm sure you've noticed, joy and despair are traded here by the inning,

The 88' series was a 7 game series though. Losing the 1st game wasnt a killer there.

When you throw your #1 in the first game of a 5 game series (and lose), it makes thing very difficult. Just look at the Twins. Once Santana lost, they're done.

No body mentioned that Martin was moved up to the 6th spot. Interesting timing. So it was Little's fault for putting him in a situation causing two runners to be thrown out at home.

But we didn't have to lose--- Penny how on earth could someone put him in?

134 Our situation is not like the Twins, they were playing at home and Santana was not just a No. 1 starter, he was basically given a win before the game started.

Sure, is it difficult, yes, would I prefer winning, no doubt, but have we done things the easy way this year, no. And again, the thing that gives me hope is that the guys kept battling.

Sure the Mets feel great and I would rather be in their position but it is still a series.

136 Not only put him in, but leave him in when he was clearly struggling in...especially for Delgado, who's hit him in the past...ack.

Just got back from the game. Dang! It was fun but Mets fans are jerks and that play at home plate still has me reeling. Penny looked really bad, couldn't locate that fastball to save his life. But all things considered, like Jon said, we were still in the game and there's something to be said for that. Let's go Kuo!

135 - Wha?? Martin hit what should have been a double

Umm. Nobody that is...

Can I just ask the question if it had been anyone else but Penny would be arguing about that move?

Probably we would be throwing Kent and the 3B coach under the bus instead.

Jon is right, of course. Painful loss, but it's not over by any means.

We've won 8 out of our last 10 and we nearly won today despite some big blunders. I hardly think it's quitting time. But some here quit in August and again repeatedly in September so...

139 Did it look like Green could make a play on Martin's ball?

139 Was there a stop sign to Drew?

144 We're LA fans. It's our birthright to be fickle. (smiling sarc.)

140 capdodger

I was kidding. See 63. I don't blame Little.

Ned likes players who have been in the playoffs before. That covers a range of veterans from excellent to horrible, but it does tend to clog up the pipeline for prospects to emerge. Still, Ned has faith in the ones we know about, plus Loney and Kemp are obviously still part of his plans.

I think Ned should be held accountable for how the playoff-experienced veterans like Lofton, Kent, Nomar, Lowe, Penny, Maddux, Drew and Furcal respond to today's loss. If they can pick up the others and deliver a crusty, scrappy, hair-growing-out-of-your-ears old guys' victory tomorrow, then Ned will look like a genius.

Its not quitting.
I think the Mets have a stronger team even with injuries. The Dodgers best chance to win would have been to throw Lowe/Kuo 4 times in the series. But that doesnt look like its going to happen.

132
After today's game, I went back and looked at the box score of Game 1 of the 1988 NLCS. Orel took a 2-0 lead into the 9th and gave up the first runs he had given up in over a month.

Granted, this is a shorter series, but if the Dodgers can win tomorrow, the momentum will be back on our side coming home.

Someone may have already posted this, but I thought it was worth repeating. Mlb.com quote from Rich Donnelly "If I hold him, we've got two guys at third base," Donnelly said. "I was hoping they'd throw the ball away. I didn't really want to send Jeff. J.D. was right behind him, and I thought, one's going to be out and one's going to be safe."

Sounds like JD screwed up by not seeing the ball, but kinda dumb thing for Donnelly to say the thought they'd throw the ball away - lame really - it implies he sent Drew.

142 - I'm throwing the third base coach under a bus anyway. It's his job to make sure things like that DON'T happen.

145
My view of that play was obstructed. But that means that it was in the furtherest corner of right field. So basically I don't know.

146
I didn't see one. I was wondering why there wasn't. He never slowed down though and it felt like an hour between Kent getting tagged out and Drew reaching the plate. I had time to throw up and then swallow it.

Actually I am surprised though, no one here comes close to going over the line compared to what happens to the UCLA boards when they lose a football game like the one in Washington.

By the way, had the distinct pleasure of meeting Coach Walker, the new Defensive Coordinator, very impressive, frankly it was the most candid discussion I have ever participated in with anyone in authority over anything, not just limited to sports. He is going to be a head coach at some point in his career.

152. I think he's confused. The replay clearly showed him ignoring Drew. I could almost buy the explanation for sending Kent (that Drew was on top of him) but he should have just stopped at that. Now he sounds even more... not smart.

Eh. I'm done. Pitching against the shift and Base-Coach Blunders, yet they still had a chance to tie in the ninth. New day mañana.

124 In terms of starting a bunch of rookies next season, I think the Angels kinda screwed the pooch for us in that regard. They tried to go with their hot hand in prospects but got burned pretty badly. Granted, we're not the Angels, but I could see McCourt or someone else insisting on picking up some vets for the lineup next season.

The Angels didn't get burned that badly, they won more games than the Dodgers did.

All things considered, I like it better when the Dodgers win, than when they lose.

Three things I believe are true: Lugo is a better baseball player than Merlin; Penny is a better pitcher than Beimel; sometimes things don't work out the way they should.

Also, on the meta-undercurrent of the thread, whenever it's possible to ignore an irritating comment, that's usually the best way to go. Where it's impossible, the Lovejoy principle (A gentle answer turneth away wrath) is useful. Where that's not possible, please try to make it funny for the rest of us. 8^)

159 True, but the perception in the media went the other way. And we all know how McCourt acts in response to the media.

155 He can have the job today if he'd like.

The UCLA boards go crazy because the head coach is an incomp.

"If I hold him, we've got two guys at third base," Donnelly said. "I was hoping they'd throw the ball away.

Someone alert Donnelly that the Dodgers are playing the Mets, not the Rockies/Cubs/Pirates/Giants.....

Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard.."hoping they'd throw the ball away"...lol

I was hoping they'd throw the ball away. It's not the thing you'd like to hear the guy whose job was to not let that happen, say, but if he means that that's what he thought after Drew rounded, I don't think it's dumb. That it was an afterthought, not the strategy. That's how I read it, anyway.

tomorrow ould of been so much easier to watch if they won tonight, even if shawn green hit a walk off grandslam off saito down by 3 runs.

Just had time for first fifty here.
BH _ I like your positive approach, and your compassion. I don't think some folks here are "screaming." I think they are loudly questioning basic incompetence (in the base-running blunderbuss, on the part of two guys paid a collective twenty millions or so to get it right, especially at the most important moments) and unthinkable, inexplicable choices - not mere "mistakes." I think you were a "long" series guy in a previous post...apparently Grady is, too.
Much to my disappointment (Grady, not you).
Grady can't treat this telescoped five games as the same laid-back and pleasant (and effective) favorite uncle. Donnelly's (and
Hoffman's before him) inability to read time and space fairly well could kill the season
in a short series. If CapD is correct with Grady's thinking in the Penny-less seventh,
then Grady needs a quick bracing from the owner and/or GM about the Brand New Timeline mentioned above.
I like the defense of Lugo - changing leagues, mid-season, pennant-pressure quotient, city size are all powerful obstacles. Grady should have noted his struggles a while ago, and turned to the less-predictable (anyone think Lugo would do anything other tha "K" in that situation?) but more hopeful kids.
Which leads to last for a while: Greg S:
my own take is any blanket statement about the mgr might be premature, but I don't think
it's intellectually indefensible. Some folks intuit more quickly than others, and are often right! I don't yet support that judgment, but I don't think you have a right to edit it - how 'bout you just disagree?

Somebody was standing at home directing traffic, right? Was it Merlin? If there isn't a sign for, 'Pound LoDuca into the dirt,' there ought to be.

158 I don't think its just the McCourts, Billy Beane did it in Oakland, obviously the Yankees always do it, only in situations like Minnesota and Detroit (who still got guys like I-Rod and Ordonez as well as Kenny Rogers) can you play a bunch of young guys.

No matter what happens from this point on, Ned has the goodwill, deserved or not, that recent occupiers in his chair never got so he can do whatever he wants with the team.

We'll be here to agree (or probably disagree) but I think that the basic formula you see out there today is the same one we will see next year. Not saying he will trade all of the kids but will we see lineup with Loney, LaRoche, Kemp, and Ethier all out there in April, its possible but not very likely.

And what exactly is the problem with hoping LoDuca throws the ball away? He was not looking at Drew either, and having already gotten an out at home, he may well have thought the play was over and tossed the ball back to Maine or over to 2B.

After all, who expects a coach to send two runners home on the same play? ;)

Andrew: Just saw 160 before headin' out.
May I respectfully suggest, re: Penny/Beimel - not right now, and not in that particular context. And may I wonder, along with you, just how a competent young athlete manages to cut himself on a hotel glass just prior to the biggest engagement of his life? Wonder how many other adult hotel patrons across the land last night cut themselves on a hotel glass?

The only way Donnelly's statement makes sense is if Martin was going to third (he wasn't), now I have not seen the play (do I want to) but unless JD was a few steps behind Kent, once the throw goes towards home, you have to do everything short of tackling Drew to stop him.

Kent was probably done in by his hesitation which probably doomed someone to make one out.

Kemp is definitely going back to Vegas. I wonder if they would be comfortable with a platoon of Laroche/Betemit at 3rd?

107- when the alternatives are Ramon Martinez and Julio Lugo, you have to stick with Kent even though he is a horrible defender. It's a shame that Nomar can't 3B or the outfield, then Grits would be able to shift Kent over to 1B and move Marlon Anderson back to 2B. The Dodgers are going to have to do something about Kent in the offseason, whether it's the majority of his salary so they'll be able to trade him or move him to 1B and therefore block Loney for another year. Kent is still a solid offensive 2B, but his defense is horrendous. If you move Kent over to 1B, he loses a lot of his offensive value and becomes an average offensive 1B. Jeff Kent's defense has deteriorated so much that he's entering Alfonso Soriano territory. A few year ago, statistics showed that Orlando Hudson was more productive than Soriano because his defense was so much better. Defense is important, especially up the middle. It's a real shame that the Dodgers didn't pick up Brandon Phillips after he was DFA'd. There are a few good 2B that should be available in the offseason, either as a free agent or through trade.

Marcus Giles- had an off year, but is usually a very good offensive 2B who also plays quality defense. I'm sure Furcal and Betemit wouldn't mind either
Mark DeRosa- coming off a career, DeRosa is a career utility man, who has produced when he's been given a chance to play. DeRosa kind of reminds me of Mark Loretta. I'm not sure if he's a free agent, but Texas would probably be willing to trade him since they already have Ian Kinsler
Orlando Hudson- would the Diamondbacks trade him? Hudson is arbitration eligible and is coming off the best offensive year of his career.
Omar Infante- a former shortstop who has been pushed to bench because the Tigers believe that Placido Polanco is a better player. Infante quietly had a nice year in 2004, but blew it last year, while suffering through some injuries. My top choice after Hudson.

If the Dodgers don't want to explore the free agent/trade market, then they can always move Betemit over to 2B and start Andy LaRoche at 3B. LaRoche is a big question mark because of shoulder injury though.

160 - Well said.

164 - I can retract thinking Donnelly's dumb and agree with your thought if inside Donnelly's brain something happened like, "Yikes! What the ... well, I hope he scores!", rather than "Hmmmmm. JD's right on top of him. I wonder if he'll score?"

I'm waiting on Lowe's mlb.com blog (which was quite thoughtful today on the trip to ground zero, btw) about what happened from his perspective in the 2nd.

Sorry, just one more. Y'sign old guys, fragile guys, they can't be barrellin' into catchers in game one of the five-gamer, if y'think (and I don't particularly) they are keys to winning the day after, and the day after that, and if they think so, too. Gotta hope Ned comes away from this old-guy-as-key-guy thing he was fed by Drug-guy up north; old guys should be heard, but only occasionally (a la Saenz) seen...

All the rants here are expected -- and I've ranted too, to co-workers and friends. But I do think some perspective is in order. Yes, this was a winnable game. Yes, terrible mistakes were made. But I liked the fight back to the almost-win.

170- I don't think it's anything like beyond argument that Penny is better, right now. It's entirely possible that he's hurt, or that there's something else mechanically (or, I suppose, psychologically) wrong with him, that's making him worse. It's not really provable, either way, which is why it would be (could be, at least) fun to argue.

I take do Beimel's story at face value. It doesn't seem likely that a rookie having a phenomenal year would fall down a flight of steps carrying dear meat, but I think that happened, too. Weird stuff happens. Like Marlon Anderson turning in to Babe Ruth for a month. Or Beimel putting up the kind of year he has, without striking out even four batters per 9IP. It's one of the reasons I gave up solipsism; no way could I imagine all this stuff.

Three errors of judgment on one play.
1) Kent not realizing that the drive was uncatchable.
2) Kent being sent in by the base coach.
3) Drew trying to score on an impossible attempt.

Wow. Deer meat, and that sentence should have started, "I do take Beimel's. . ." Sorry.

179 some meat is dear ...

It's one of the reasons I gave up solipsism

Wow, giving up solipsism and smoking at the same time :)

I was at the game tonight, and it was excruciating. We gave it to them. Optimism is entirely warranted: we got to Wagner and Mota, Nomar and JD were hitting the ball really hard, and Kent looked dialed in with his swing in his own professional way.

The most impressive thing I saw was Marlon breaking up the double play while tackling Reyes. Everyone in the entire place gasped and fell absolutely silent as the ball rolled into left and Anderson took third. Completely heads up, big momentum shift. It was the only time I could feel any doubt in the crowd.

Oh to be up 1-0! And to have tickets for tomorrow night... but I'm saving up for a trip to Yankee Stadium in a couple weeks.

178 - You forgot:
4) Donnely not even attempting to stop the trail runner.

I know Penny didn't do the job but in the game I watched Broxton loaded the bases before whiffing Delgado. Everyone is assuming that Broxton gets the job done in the 7th which I think is a smug assumption considering he let 3 of the 6 batters he faced get on base.

Donnelly was caught between a rock and a hard place. The big mistake has to lie at the feet of Kent for not getting a good read on the ball hit by Martin. For a man whose seen so many games he really has no excuse, as at no time did that ball look catchable. Of course Kent had no idea that Drew was behind him, do you all think he grew eyes in the back of his head while he was running the bases but he still should have clocked LaDuca instead of the stupidest slide in baseball which is the headfirst slide into home plate. La Duca should have broken Kent's finger and then Drew's.

Is it smart for me to should start watching Lost tonight? I know most of the major storylines, but I haven't watched the show.

*Is it smart for me to start watching...

185 I would say no.

Netflix or rent the first two seasons, and catch up on this season during the myriad reruns that will air.

The pilot alone is worth waiting for. Don't dive in now. I missed the whole first season, and caught up while the second season was on the air (thank you iTunes).

135-140-148 - Hence, guideline #7.

If I'm reading things correctly, Kent was a lost cause because Drew was running up his back at third. Fine. But Donnelly has to put the brakes on Drew and at least limit the damage.

I'll open a Lost chat thread at Screen Jam.

188 - Guideline #7?

I noticed that Screen Jam is Lostless tonight, so I will simply say that the TV Guide fellow (Ausiello, I think) says that this episode of Lost may be the best one since the pilot.

I will also say that I'm not particularly fond of the TV Guide fellow, so do with that what you will.

190 Nice timing.

191 - on the sidebar. Thank You For Not ...

Um. "Lost" is gonna run for six weeks, then take a whole bunch of time off, then start 17 consecutive new shows in February (I think). I don't think there are gonna be myriads of reruns; I think it's gonna be different new shows. So my suggestion would be to start watching season 3 and then rent during the two months or so in between Episode 6 and Ep. 7.

As far as Kent goes, his bat is too valuable to leave out of the lineup, and besides, the guy's now 100%, so his defense suffers a little because of it.

Oops. "NOT" 100%.

Hey wow Eric Byrnes is really bad on baseball tonight. He refuses to look at the camera. Nice tie tho. heh

195 - Or, put Episodes 1-6 on one video tape or TiVo slot and start watching seasons 1 and 2 now.

If you all haven't seen it, Bill Simmons did a running diary of Mets-Dodgers today on espn.com. At the end of describing "the play," Simmons writes: "All that play needed was some Benny Hill music."

http://tinyurl.com/s8c78

One more Bill Simmons entry:

2:44 -- Thorne and Phillips gush about Paul LoDuca's various positive effects on the Mets. Somewhere in America, Paul DePodesta rises from his sofa to make a mixed drink.

200
An appletini, light on the tini...?

I guess Penny being in there in the seventh was not so much Little's fault as Beimel's for not knowing how to drink a glass of water.

Unfortunately for Dodger fans, Bill Simmons was live-blogging the game this evening. Now, I love Simmons' articles as much as anybody, but the guy has a unique memory for incidents, happenings and references, keeping alive little bits of arcana that might otherwise drift away into obscurity. The other day he had a reference to Jim Belushi's portrayal of a penniless Captain Kangaroo on SNL back in the '80s. The only reason anybody remembers that is because guys like Simmons, with a razor memory for esoteric cultural minutiae, don't let it fade into oblivion.

This is in reference, of course, to Kent and Drew's "Major League"-esque double tag-out at the plate in the 2nd inning. That's the kind of play I want to forget ever happened, but rest assured, for as long as Simmons is writing about sports, a reference to that play will always be lurking around the corner. It'll stay alive in the sports pop-culture zeitgeist for perpetuity.

His description of the play is emblematic of what I'm talking about. He employs three random pop culture references to describe it:

1:31 -- Now this was incredible: First and second, no outs, Russ Martin slams a potential double off the wall, Jeff Kent (is he wearing gravity boots?) takes so long to chug around third that the Mets gun him down Kent ... only JD Drew is coming right behind him, and HE GETS THROWN OUT, TOO! Who tagged those guys out, Tom Berenger? Unbelievable. All that play was missing was some Benny Hill music.

1:37 -- Wilson Betemit pushes a double down the line (1-0, Dodgers), followed by Maine striking out Lowe to get out of the inning. I still can't get over that last play. All bets are off when Grady Little's involved. Remember the scene in "The Naked Gun" when the cougar ran onto the field and mauled the second baseman? Even that's possible. I'm not ruling any scenario out.

An unfortunate media tendency is to label people, then view whatever happens afterward through the lens of that label.

(Media: meet Grady Little, maker of the worst managerial decision EVER, of ALL TIME, staying with Pedro in '03.)

Quick now, the name of that Red Sox lights-out reliever he didn't put in instead was.........
funny, no one else seems to recall that name either.

The Pedro decision alone has caused every playoff preview I've seen to give the Mets' Randolph an edge at manager over Grady. Hello? Grady's not an idiot. He's well regarded over a long history in the game. The Red Sox won quite a few games under Grady. Maybe a few even were won or lost mostly because of his decisions.

Today's game is like that one in '03, or many others. A manager makes or doesn't make moves; if they work, the player came through. If not, the manager's an idiot for making them (AND the player's terrible to boot).

Is a manager going to be right every time? Absurd question. Is a player (or team) going to win in every situation all the time? Just as absurd.

But, sure, managers and players have to come though often enough to keep their jobs.

The Dodgers actually have exceeded expectations just by making the posteason. Maybe we should all take a deep breath. Count to 10. Exhale, slowly. If needed, repeat until calmed down.

Enjoy! This is supposed to be fun.

You know, we could be Brewer or Cub or maybe Royal fans and not have to worry about posteason, except rarely, over years and years....

Rereading my post, I think I came across a little too harsh on Bill Simmons. Don't get me wrong, I usually love all the pop culture tidbits (like the Captain Kangaroo SNL sketch). His live-blog of the game was funny, as usual, and had this gem:

2:44 -- Thorne and Phillips gush about Paul LoDuca's various positive effects on the Mets. Somewhere in America, Paul DiPodesta rises from his sofa to make a mixed drink.

205 meet 200
200 meet 205

Well, it's a long diary, so the fact that we both quoted the same items must be indicative of something.

has the news on bryan morris, scott elbert and jon meloan been reported yet?

Incredible Stories

Would ninety % of the people who post here have managed better tonight. Would 95% have not used Penny

Our they marketing the Grudge II the same way they marketed Godzilla vs. Mothra.

Is Jon Stewart using obsenity tonight.

The tantalizing thing still about using Penny is his 95+ mph fastball, according to tonight's tv gun. Apparently his bad back hurts his control but not speed so much. His back doesn't seem to loosen up with more pitches, so he's either got control from the first pitch or he's wild. This would seem to be a recipe for a potential start or long relief. In late relief or a tie game, he needs to have a very short leash, which wasn't the case in Game 1.

Hey, someone mentioned this at the bottom of the ItD comments section, and it looks bad. Article on Scout.com says something about top prospects needing tommy john, and there's a picture of Elbert up front.

Note that the article is not free, so I don't know any details.

http://tinyurl.com/h9y6u

What happened to Scott Elbert. Please let it be good.

211

elbert shut down with sore arm, out of AFL. Meloan taking his place. Bryan Morris complained of a sore elbow, MRI revealed ligament damage, TJ surgery is recommended and he will miss all of 2007.

Is there a more pitiful figure than Grits or Hannity?

Under normal circumstances, I would have used Penny to start the 7th. Let him get some work in before a potential Game 4 start, and let the Mets deal with a 95+ fastball in the late innings without having to burn your setup man.

The logic was there, but the context was not. Penny has not been pitching reliably, and he may not be healthy.

all i can say is that i am not laughing this morning.

213 Why don't you just kick my dog, too?

That is just all kinds of suck.

215 - my roommate watched the game on TV, and said Penny looked like he was hurting, said he was standing kinda funny. I don't know if anyone else noticed this

Well it looks like our drafts of young arms are following the trend of '85-95 when a long string of of first and high draft picks never even reached the majors. I can't even remember the names but there was something like Opperman, many more and finally we broke the string with the success of Driefort. This may justify certain teams that never draft arms.
Where did the tradition of guaranteed contracts come from, anyway. I have looked everywhere and even in entertainment there is nothing. if Elvis had a five year contract with a Vegas casino, he had to provide the show or he didn't get paid.
When did pitchers dare to demand huge salaries if they were injured and unable to pitch. I see no precedent. What the heck is the story.

Well it looks like our drafts of young arms are following the trend of '85-95 when a long string of of first and high draft picks never even reached the majors.

and how did you come to that conclusion?

Penny may not be healthy? He has been horrible lately, until finally it was revealed he is not healthy. He was one person guaranteed to blow up and lose, he has terrible back problems.

Well, poop. Just finished watching the rest of the game via TiVo. I'd listened to the earlier innings live at work, but between "The Play" and then the two home runs, I decided I'd be too frustrated and nervous to concentrate at work so I avoided hearing anything and raced home to watch the last 5-6 innings.

in some ways, the game was emblematic of the Dodgers season as a whole - a tease, lots of heart, comebacks, some boneheaded mistakes, a few seconds where I want to strangle Rich Donnelly, some great plays, good pitching, bad pitching, tantalizingly close to victory, and then, unlike some of their amazing comebacks, they just fell short. I was hoping for and expecting no more than a split in this series (and frankly won't give up even if they lose tomorrow, but...) it's a pretty critical game.

I did say earlier we could get to Mota, and we did. We couldn't punch it wide open against the other guys though and it wasn't to be.

But after watching the game on ESPN I think the ultimate reason the Dodgers lost is that Tim Robbins left the booth. If he'd stayed in there for just one more inning the Dodgers would have won.

196 Linkmeister

Glad you fixed 195 because I thought you were being sarcastic.

Nothing wrong with Clayton Kershaw (so far), last I heard...

D-Lowe's blog post is up. Nothing too interesting. Good game, one play, taking everything in stride, etc. I figured he would have some beer drinking on his intinerary and wouldn't post tonight.

220 are you funning me, or do I need to say only through the facts, which may take a bit of work to find. And I appreciate your posts totally Nate.

190 "I'll open a Lost chat thread at Screen Jam."

Isn't this, too, a Lost chat thread?

226

no, im really curious. As we have found out through Hong Chih Kuo, having TJ surgery isnt the end of the world as far as making the big leagues as a starting pitcher. The attrition rate of pitchers is the same for the Dodgers as any other organization. There isnt some bad luck curse. Its just pitching prospects have high risks and higher chances for injury at every level they pass.

TJ surgery sucks but its not something Morris cant come back from. And the Elbert thing is just precautionary I think. He pitched a ton this year already and i doubt they were going to let him pitch in the AFL anyways and this just gives them an excuse to let him rest. Besides, Meloan needs the innings more then Elbert.

228 I see what you mean. But if someone finds the stats, it still looks incredible.
'85 to 95 may not be the precise period, but it is close. The D's spent a long string of first round picks on pitchers who had an unreal string of arm failures and never reached the majors. This is bad luck and I'm only bitchin cause we lossed tonight.On the other hand, it may make sense to pick position players and steal pitchers from small market teams who can't afford them.

228 - So you think that this is no big deal Nate? Because I'll be honest, this is not good news on a bad baseball day. However, if you think that this is only a minor setback then that is good enough for me.

Is there anywhere I can find D's first round picks from '85 to 95 and their ML stats.

230

Well any surgery is always a large matter but this isnt a huge deal in that Morris wont have a shot to get to the bigs. Its just he cant go straight from point A to point B, hes going to need to take a detour and maybe work a bit harder. It does suck but tons of pitchers come back from TJ surgery to become great pitchers and have long careers. If it was the shoulder or labrum or something of that nature, then you should be more worried.

Although I guess now the comparisons to AJ Burnett are now kind of justified eh?

231

I am not disagreeing that in the late 80s we didnt have a drought. But i am saying that this current period with our top pitching prospects does not match the period of the late 80s.

231

http://tinyurl.com/p7j84

Dodgerblues lists all the first round picks from the 80s onward.

204 - The name you're looking for is Scott Williamson, who once his family situation straightened out (his child was sick) was teriffic in 2003, especially the post-season. Alan Embree and Mike Timlin were the setup men who had not allowed a run in the entire post-season. We've got a little saying about it here in Boston: Embree and Timlin in the 8th, Williamson in the 9th. Yes, the bullpen was shaky during the regular season. But it wasn't in the post-season; it was fantastic in the post-season. And Pedro was cooked. He had to struggle in the bottom of the 7th, and he thought he was done (he did his point to the sky and got a hug from Nomar. Everyone thought he was done.) It took multiple hits and 3 runs to tie this game, and there were several points Grady should have acted. I was new to baseball in 2003, and I was yelling at Grady to take Pedro out. If I could tell Pedro should have gone, then Grady damn well should have been able to tell.

Look, I've been reading this blog and rooting for the Dodgers all year. I'm pulling for the Dodgers to go all the way. (You've got my shortstop playing first base for you, for one thing. And I strongly covet Martin.) I sincerely hope that Grady gets redemption, and that everyone can brag about their World Series rings. I hope Grady becomes the most successful manager in Dodgers history, leads the team to a record number of NL titles in a row, and that there's huge debate over whether Nomar should go in the HOF with a Red Sox cap or a Dodgers cap. But while we may be loud and obnoxious about Grady here in Boston, we're not wrong about this. He screwed up, and we lost a series we should have won.

Having looked at the picks from 1983 to 1995 confirms my thoughts. I'm not saying our prospects are following the same path, but that a high draft pick used for an arm is very likely wasted. Get pitchers from poor teams, there are only five to ten teams that can afford them. High pick pitchers have a shocking rate of wrecking their arms, even if its not in bar fights like Brien Taylor.

235 Casilda- I'm an old D fan lives in Ma. and roots for the Sox. But I fear while Grady can put the team together, he has to go before we can get further and win. Perhaps you can get Nomar back, for legend says our young guys must do it--led by Martin. I have valued Nomar, but it is time for youth to triumph here in Ma/La.

236 Brien Taylor's career troubles went beyond an arm injury in a bar fight. I'm sure you knew that, I just like to point that out for people who think it's that simple. He wasn't a baseball player, just a kid with a rocket arm.

234 by the way thank you very much;0)

236 I didn't really know the story. Did he have troubles beyond the obvious and well publisised. I am not insensitive to anything, having survived ridiculous problems myself.

110. The old Glavine was pretty much a wash vs left handed and right handed hitters. The 2006 wiley old veteran version was much much more effective against left handed hitters. I'd start Saenz and give yourself the best chance to win, instead of rolling the dice that a high leverage pinch hitting opportunity will arise vs Wagner. vr, Xei

240 make that 238

235 Welcome, Casilda, and thanks for the good wishes. We hope they come true.

Regarding your feelings on that Sox team a few years back, you're entitled to your opinion and were obviously closer to it than most of us here were, but I seem to recall the Sox mostly horrible bullpen having something to do both with leaving Pedro in there a mite too long. Hindsight is also 20-20. I do hope Grady gets a chance to redeem himself because I think he must be beyond tired of having to answer himself on that one. Series are often looked at as being won and lost on pivotal moments but they are more won and lost on a cumulative level by a team, by their players as much as managers.

That said, I sure hope the Dodgers get another chance to erase their baserunning miscues from today. ;-) Cheers.

242 Brien Taylor was a poor kid from a North Carolina family, who was blessed with a left hand from God, and absolutely no baseball IQ. He was the stuff of legend in high school, and did pretty well at the lower minor league level. The problem was that he wasn't an athlete, had no knowledge of the game, and probably wouldn't have made it to stardom, even before the injury.

The arm injury was surely a disaster, but the legend of Brien Taylor has been blown completely out of proportion. Moreover, it's brought more undue attention than necessary on a nice kid from the South who just wanted to play baseball. I think he works construction for a living nowadays.

Does anybody else think Simmons is wrong and that these are the funniest commercials they have seen in a long long time?

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=mtfallon

204 You make good sense; we are in it.

Does Penny's outing today mean that he is not the game 4 starter?

I'm probably late to the party... but...

Hey! There were no forward laterals in "The Play." Go Bears!

247 - See 86.

I just saw a promo for the new Sophia Coppola movie "Marie Antoinette," which is fine.

Of course, the preview ended with..."Based on a true story."

Uh, do people really need to be told that the story of Marie Antoinette is, you know, not a work of fiction? There was really a woman named Marie Antoinette. She really existed. Does this need clarification?

I weep.

Ben Kinglsey is Gandhi...

Based on a true story.

Oliver Stone's "JFK" was based on a true story too I believe.

So there you go.

Just thinkin' out loud: there aren't many five-tool managers, any more than there are many five-tool players, or five-tool presidents, or, well, y'get the drift...
Tom L, in my memory, was a great baseball psychologist, and a lousy strategist and technician. His best season (IMO) just happened to be the year the 'pen was virtually bulletproof, career years everywhere y'looked ('88). Just as I would like to temper let's say Drew's passivity and perfectionism with Nomar's oh-what-the-hell-let's-give-it-a-shot approach at the plate, I can't.
Baseball is the great medicine for folks in serious contemplation of the path of anti-solipsism (A Lincoln - in debate with Douglas in Cairo, Il, Aug 6, 1856)
Was about to regress to ten when I first read Grady's quip about LA traffic and the meeting of the mindless at base four, but somebody shot a bolt and I realized that's a genuine part of his worth as a season-long success.
Even wider, I like the fact he keeps remindin' - it's just a game, and this one, the pain now seriously diminished, was a gas!
Andrew, my sense of dread at Grady's pitching choice was so great from the moment the tv first flashed Unbendable Ben atop that little hill, I might have called for Beimel to pitch
RIGHT-HANDED!!!!!
And forty years ago I might have believed at least one of those stories. Trapped in cynical dotage, the shortstop and the bullman
are ohfer with me.
About eight to ten guys have flat-out cracked me up in the last hundred or so; you know who you are! A t'ousand t'anks....

251 Yes, Mr. Timmermann, that would be the most liberally applied example of "Based on a true story." Of course, it was also a brilliant movie, however factually wrong it was (which is to say, a lot).

There's a messiah...He's fighting for vengeance...He's the Saviour...Commando Jesus...Coming, 2008...Based on a true story.

Re: Penny's body language: he looked stiff and uncomfortable, to these amatuer eyes, from the gitgo; even Steve P. mentioned it. I'd be less critical of Grady if he'd had him on a Sparky Anderson leash, and once having seen that and the results to Reyes, or, a little late, Beltran, had gone to plan B.
(Grady and Rick did have a plan B for that inning, didn't they?)

249 - I think they did that tongue in cheek because this movie version of Marie Antoinette will have pink converse and other modern designer fashions.

255 My students are running up to me left and right and saying "Hey, Mr. Brock, there's a Marie Antoinette movie coming out!"

I'm not going to debate the merits of the movie. They are truly excited about a historical movie. That makes me happy, and it's a great first step.

[248] pshaw, that's just stanford revisionist propaganda :)

Though still incredulous about the two-outs-at-home thing, here are some things I appreciated about today's game:

1) I got to watch it in HD
2) Joe Morgan left the game early
3) I had fun correcting the mispronounciation of Garciapara's name (announcer kept prounouncing it "pehr-ah" instead of "pahr-ah")
4) The Dodgers scored four runs off the vaunted Mets bullpen
5) Broxton worked himself out of a jam (that Kent helped get him into), against tough hitters
6) It was entertaining to have the tying run on, in scoring position, with one run in, and Garciapara at the plate - it made Wagner look breakable

There is no such thing as a "forward lateral", somthing that is lateral is not forward. Something that is forward is not lateral.

The rules of football don't even use the word "lateral". They just use "forward pass" and "backward pass".

But Jon being angry about something that happened at Stanford in 1982 is like me complaining that "Dickerson was out" or that the 1939 Bruins should have gotten the Rose Bowl bid instead of USC.

Jon,

Jayson Starks references the Three Stooges,
Bill Simmons Benny Hill music. I wrote here about the "Daffy Dodgers," and, just finishing the early Newsday, your Saint Vin did as well.
That's why I was givin' you a serious hard time about the droll "mistake!" :)

259 I would have gone with Brad Melsby's non fumble in the '98 UCLA/Miami game.

Grrr. Stupid refs costs us a title shot...That, and giving up 208 yards to Edge James.

In any event....MELSBY DIDN'T FUMBLE!

177 "I take do Beimel's story at face value... Weird stuff happens."

Well, according to the Times, anyway, Beimel wasn't telling the truth. Seems a dumb thing to lie about when there are witnesses around.

Do the Dodgers lead the league in players with a history of lying or otherwise misleading their teams about injuries? You've got Kent, Gagne, Penny, now Beimel; am I forgetting anyone?

Also, for once in my life, I am in complete agreement with Bill Plaschke.

Does that make me a bad person?

[263] no eric. to make yourself feel better, just consider the aphorisms about a even stopped clock being right twice a day, and about a room full of monkeys eventually typing shakespeare.

dodger blues to joe beimel:

> 10.4.06 - Joe Beimel
Thanks, Joe. Loved watching Brad Penny in the 7th inning on Wednesday.

Luckily I missed watching the game yesterday -- so I just now watched "The Play" on dodgers.com. Ick. Drew was just brain dead on the play, I hope it doesn't affect his performance the rest of the series. Not much seems to affect Kent, so no worries about him.

And for good measure it's the headlines all over. I'll beat Sam DC to a Boswell column, all about "The Play". It's at http://tinyurl.com/j23x7. It's fun to read about Babe Herman but not in this context.

266 You did beat me! I was just coming over to link that. It's very well written column.

Other very interesting thing in the Post is Mike Wise's Appreciation for Peter Norman, the third man on the Podium with Tommie Smith and John Carlos at Mexico City in 1968. http://tinyurl.com/p38qy

Bill Simmons is horrible.

259 - But Dickerson was out.....and I'm still angry about it! And UCLA should have gone to the Rose Bowl in 1967 (1966 season); where have you gone Norman Dow?

Lance Carter has filed for free agency.

Lance, we hardly knew ye.

Friend's of Dodger Thoughts Fantasy Basketball league is forming. Format is H2H with a Live draft the week before the season starts. vr, Xei

http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/nba

League id: 41973
pw: dodgers

Just want to reiterate that the Wise article linked in 267 is really quite a fine piece of work. Well worth the read time.

Lance Carter has filed for free agency.

say it aint so!!

Lofton is 0 for 11 vs. Glavine. I almost wish we could start Jason Repko today but I guess the game is too important to not have the veteran in there.

As for Carter, man, we could really use him in this series. {Ahem, no we're not that desperate.}

272

thanks for the link Sam, great read indeed.

263. Even Plaschke couldn't get this one wrong. That's how obvious of a gaffe it was.
vr, Xei

274 RE: Lofton 0-11

He's Due!!

Lance, we hardly knew ye

But we learned an awful lot in a very short time

I just saw baseball prospectus has the Dodgers edging the Mets offense in terms of VORP. Must be a stat I will never fully understand, unless the Mets have a couple of players dragging them down. (Floyd?)

276

i'm sure Grady will have a smaller leash on him next time around.

279
The Dodgers out-OBP'ed and out-OPS'ed the Mets, while the Mets had the edge in SLG.

Belated LOL for 201.

From today's LA Daily News: "Manager Grady Little said Penny's stuff was so electric that he feels more confident than ever in handing him the ball for a potential Game 4 on Sunday at Dodger Stadium."

What's more disturbing: that Grady made the fateful decision to bring in Penny in the first place? Or that he was so impressed with what he saw that he's now ready to start him in Game 4 (assuming we get there)?

Not to bring up an old, dead yarn, but to those who Dodger-fan Peeves include knowing nothing about the opposition, I'd suggest looking around in the comments of mets blogs now.

The lack of accurate info on the blue is astounding, particularly regarding starting pitcher selection (Maddux in DS and Kuo in Shea).

283

I'll just keep my fat mouth zipped for that one.

283 Im fine with it as long as we have him on the shortest leash of all time. Have Bills warm up in the pen right when the game starts..

282
It's about time...

283. I'm not sure I get that either. Penny's "stuff" was not good other than his fastball being fast. No movement on the FB and no breaking ball to speak of. More importantly, he's wilder than Pam Anderson on a bender.
He's missing up and not only can't hit spots, he's walking people. It's been multiple outings in a row.
BUT, perhaps he will click in given that he's throwing hard and I'm not too sure we can win without him anyway. Too many holes to fill with not enough fingers. I'll give in and agree that I would let Billingsley start game 4. But than he's not available until then and how many inning do you expect from Kuo?

All this while the 8th Best Lefthander in the AL™ rots on the bench against a team who can't hit lefties...

If we don't have a strong outing against Glavine today (and a good performance by Kuo) then Game 4 may not happen.

However, rather than continue to dwell in the Dark Land of yesterday, I choose to take some positives from all this:

- in all likelihood, the Mets won't average 6 runs/game against us.

- in a game where all their big bats contributed in a big way, where all the breaks went their way, we still fought back and had a chance to tie. We beat up their bullpen.

- Down 4-1, there's no quit in the team.

Now, I have a sneaky suspicion that Glavine will either be really good today (wily veteran-ness coming through) or pretty bad (aging body not able to do what he needs it to). In a perfect world, we'd get Kuo a few runs and be able to breeze through a good chunk of the game. A very interesting question will be, if it's close in the seventh inning, how will Grady manage the second time around?

284 Anyone want to volunteer to pop in there and be Official Record Setter Straighter? (Whee, I'm making up phrases!)

290 Yeah, let's not forget how streaky the Dodgers are - a 2 game losing streak could be followed by a 3 game winning streak. However, I highly recommend the Dodgers try not to do a 3 game losing streak.

262- Well, the physics were, it seems, true. Just not the contents of the glass, or the setting. I don't see what Beimel thought he was getting by lying about it, but I'm as surprised as he is that anybody recognized him.

262 I must have missed that story. What did they say happened?

292 You know, that's a good point - if Mets fans can barely identify anything about the Dodgers, how did someone there correctly identify... Joe Beimel? An old college chum? A Giants fan?

Anyway, I guess Joe was embarrassed about being in a bar the night before a game. I wonder if anyone would care. He could have said a smaller lie, that he was drinking club soda in a bar when...

An alternative opinion on The Play (ie, that Drew's baserunning wasn't quite so boneheaded) from King Kaufman at Salon.com:

http://tinyurl.com/rlwmp

you have to sit through a short ad to read the entire piece. King's got some good points, but it still isn't taking the sting out. Taking the sting out would be laughing about it after the Dodgers beat the Mets in the series.

293- He dropped his glass at a bar, then cut it when the glass shattered while he reached out to try and catch it. It was the hotel story, without the hotel, or the tap water.

294 Its possible its a teammate who was there with an axe to grind.

So is Beimel out for the whole playoffs?

297- Maybe it was Penny!

298 The article said Beimel was flying to LA to get a plastic surgeon to do multiple layers of stitching to have him healed up in 7-10 days.

297 Who has an axe to grind against... Joe Beimel?

But the Penny theory works for me. He was in a trenchcoat and Groucho glasses hiding behind a palm plant.

295
Makes sense that the play would have worked out differently if Kent knew he was coming. But I still think the fault lies with Donnelly. He saw what was happening and he should have held Drew. Or even yelled out to Kent that Drew was coming. As long as we're throwing around blame here, why didn't Merlin yell to Kent?

I've just been reading quickly, but I gather now that the story is that someone ground an axe against Joe Beimel's left hand, causing the wound.

301 A very large palm plant, in fact, a forest...

303 - in a hotel bar.

300 ...flying to LA to get a plastic surgeon ...

No. Too easy.

303 Colonel Penny in the library with an axe to grind?

"I'm sorry, that's incorrect. It was Rich Donnelly in the clubhouse with a stop sign."

302 - Or why didn't Donnely yell at Kent that Green wasn't going to catch it?

288
It does seem that Little's threshold for what's "electric" is rather low. Throw it hard, regardless of control, and Little's voltage meter goes off the charts.

290
I agree that, for all the frustrations arising out of yesterday's game, there were a number of positives as well. I liked the fact that even after suffering through the 2nd-inning baserunning blunder and Penny's poor performance, the Dodgers kept battling up until the final out. They showed heart, and that gives me reason for optimism for tonight's game.

I seriously think what happened is that Donnelly and Kent couldn't see very well because they're both old, and with the sunlight doing tricks and Green's outfielding unpredictable they just plum lost where it was. Maybe they should have another coach stand out in the outfield or in the outfield stands with a walky-talkie.

The emotional flip flop at the stadium on that play was amazing. My Dodger buddy and I were up and so pumped, the Mets were up and scared. Then IT happened and the Mets fans turned to ridicule us but saw that we had suffered enough. I laughed because it was so funny, in that getting kicked in groin kind of way.

Is Grady's decision of bringing in Penny in the 7th comparable to Grady's decision to let Martinez continue pitching in 2003.

MLB.RADIO is having a field day with our brain trust ouch!

[307] so that's where he keeps it. he should bring it out onto the field every now and then.

I laughed because it was so funny, in that getting kicked in groin kind of way.

you mean in the Johnny Knoxville kind of way? sorry i ricently saw jackass 2.

310 Stupid Green and his erratic oufield paths....

[sorrowful piano music] There are two worlds: good, and evil. And sometimes these two worlds collide. And sometimes, evil wins. Brad Penny opposes relief pitching. He ruined Gagne's career, and now he's gunning for poor Joe Beimel. Brad Penny: He may just be the devil.

317 I'm Derek Lowe and I approve this message.

I think Drew should share part of the blame yesterday. He should have kept his head up then he could see the play in front of him yet he just kept running.

Aggressive baserunning is one thing but reckless is another. Our players need to know the situation and Drew should have realized that there were no outs and played safe at 3rd base.

Just like Torii Hunter should not have tried to dive for that ball yesterday knowing the situation.

I may be coming into this late, but am I the only one who didn't find Little's comment about L.A. traffic funny? Shining humor onto a situation is fine, but that was just banal and blame-shifting...

I'm pretty sure that the play at the plate will be the worst play I see in my lifetime. It's pretty much impossible that that happened.

King Kaufman usually is a voice of reason in the madness of print and talk media.

What's amusing -- in an annoying, hideous sort of way -- is how sports talk people this morning are breaking down the play(s) but completely miss the boat with their criticism. For example, Grady brings in Penny. This certainly turned out to be the wrong decision, and it's very valid to criticize Grady for it. However, Colin Cowherd's rant was that "you experiment in June, not in the playoffs".... without a word about the loss of Joe Beimel and why Grady felt he needed to experiment.

I think we all agree that the "experiment" should've been a combo of Broxton and Saito to cover three innings, but the whole point wasn't that Grady chose randomly not to use what got him to the playoffs, it was that the Dodgers were missing a key ingredient that they had counted on to this point. Very frustrating to hear a bunch of blather without having the correct information put out there.

317
I think you just stole the first paragraph from Plaschke's next column.

Lots of blather, agreed. But everyone on this site--extremely knowledgable Dodger fans all--have been criticizing Little while knowing the circumstances full well.

but the whole point wasn't that Grady chose randomly not to use what got him to the playoffs

amen to that brother.

Time for me to start my new job as publisher of the LA Times!

324

some of us are knowledgable but can't spell, but please don't hold that against me. :o)

Grady chose randomly not to use what got him to the playoffs

Yeah, why didn't he just use Beimel?

Two new posts up top - one on the Dodgers, one a Padres-Cardinals chat thread.

328 As was the point I believe of 322, he couldn't. Our pitching staff is thin. Very thin. You've got to move parts around. There is no choice right now.

324 I'm not blaming Grady for yesterday, although I think he should have had Penny on a tighter leash. I mean, c'mon folks, if he'd put Sele in and he was shelled people would complain; if he'd left Hendrickson in longer and he started to fail, ditto. He couldn't bring Beimel in. He could have brought Broxton (or Saito?) in earlier but then where would that leave the Dodgers in the 9th. Face it, middle relief is a problem with the team (it's a problem with a lot of teams - have you seen the Yankees middle relievers) and Grady's options are fairly limited there. So count me as at least one person who doesn't blame him for the loss yesterday at all.

312 No. Not even close.

Face it: Our manager isn't Phi Beta Kappa and neither is his coaching staff. Probably anyone posting here could have managed the team better. That is the way baseball has always been run. The owners know that is one way they maintain our interest in the game.

[319] if drew had kept running he would've scored. unfortunately he paused along the 3rd base line, giving lo duca enough time to recover.