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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Youth Movement Bullet Points
2007-09-23 08:54
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

It does not make sense to blame a youth movement for a team's troubles:

  • if a team for the most part has been acquiring the wrong veterans

  • if the ability of young players to fill key roles frees up money for a team to pursue truly great veterans

  • if a team's young players have been among its most productive, no matter how pampered you perceive them to be

  • if a team's veteran players are more pampered than the younger players, not only through excessive salary but also a sense of entitlement that means they don't need to play well to retain their jobs

  • if a team's younger players are held back by a manager who won't let them contribute as much as they can

  • if a team's true leader is one of its youngest players

  • if a team's chemistry was a non-issue until the losing started, and the losing isn't the fault of the younger players' on-field performance

  • if a team hasn't really committed to a youth movement in past disappointing seasons, because in the past the prospects weren't as good as they are now

    One of the phonier damnations of the Dodger farm system accuses the team of failing to produce a bonafide star from the minor leagues, despite the Dodger system being highly rated for years. The flaw in the argument is that until recently, these so-called high rankings for the Dodger farm system did not exist.

    Both Baseball Weekly and Baseball America had low rankings for the Dodger system as this decade began. As recently as 2002, the Dodgers were considered incompetent at the draft, with their No. 1 pick, two-way player James Loney, an apparent anachronism - a tools player from high school drafted ahead of proven, specialized college talent. That the dim Dodgers were putting Loney at first base instead of on the mound befuddled analysts even further. ...

  • if a team has preached patience with youth in the past but never really practiced it

  • if any idiot can see that the team's future is brighter than its past.

    * * *

    Today's 1:40 p.m. game:

    Gameday

    Retro Gameday

  • Comments (608)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2007-09-23 09:03:02
    1.   Bumsrap
    AMEN
    2007-09-23 09:05:27
    2.   D4P
    Here here. (Or is that hear hear...?)
    2007-09-23 09:11:23
    3.   PlayKempDaily
    If you're a red ass and a butcher with no range @ 2nd base, it does not make sense to blame a youth movement for its troubles.
    2007-09-23 09:16:51
    4.   Howard Fox
    we all agree Kent is a jerk, and probably a racist, and a poor clubhouse influence, and has very little range at this point in his career, but how many guys on the team are batting .300 and have 20 or more homeruns?
    2007-09-23 09:17:31
    5.   Bluebleeder87
    I was reminded of Jeff Foxworthy reading this.
    2007-09-23 09:18:10
    6.   Howard Fox
    Jeff Foxworthy read this?
    2007-09-23 09:21:27
    7.   Ranma
    Could it be too much to ask Ned to come to the realization that his "safety net" veteran acquisitions are the real monkey wrenches to the Dodgers' prolonged and post-season successes? Things aren't okely-dokely and its high time he move away from his fuddy-duddy way of thinking. Heck, just let Logan White and Kim Ng do his job for him.

    I'm sure someone like Dan Evans could do a whole lot better with the current team assets and resources. Evans was really under-appreciated for what he accomplished (e.g. bringing in Kim Ng, trading for Paul Quantrill, and his mid-value bargain trades) and his and would have accomplished (i.e. on the verge of locking Vladimir Guerrero to a contract before the impending ownership change to McCourt) despite him being handcuffed during his entire tenure as GM.

    2007-09-23 09:21:57
    8.   Gen3Blue
    Hear him, gentlemen.
    2007-09-23 09:22:14
    9.   PlayKempDaily
    4.

    imo, martin, kemp, and ethier will bat over 300 and 20 dingers next year...

    martin is the only one this year that got close to those numbers.

    2007-09-23 09:23:51
    10.   Ranma
    Apologies for the mis-typing in the second paragraph in the previous entry.
    2007-09-23 09:26:09
    11.   Howard Fox
    9 I hope you are right, and I will root hard for them whether they do or not, but baseball history is littered with guys who shoulda woulda coulda...

    and while I think they and the others are good ballplayers, the only ones I see potential greatness in are martin and loney and billingsley, and that would be terrific if 3 of the youngsters were to be great...

    2007-09-23 09:31:48
    12.   PlayKempDaily
    11. i forgot to add loney to the potential 300/20 club for next year.

    I agree with you about Eithier but I think Kemp has serious potential to be great. He has great physical tools. He just needs some seasoning and plate discipline. Oh, and start obeying the 3rd base coaches hold sign! :)

    2007-09-23 09:32:19
    13.   Izzy
    3 and 4. Uh, no we don't all agree on that.

    I agree for the most part with your article Jon. Especially the point on the sense of entitlement, that is exactly what every good player should never have. Neverthless, the complete disregard for what Kent said by some posters here only shows an inflated opinion of their own "baseball knowledge." To say that Kent is a jerk and what he sees and knows on a much more personal level than we will ever see, is as useless as spit, well, that is the point where this board becomes like the Dodger Forum. It seems to me that there are things to be learned on the part of both the kids and the veterans. And it will not surprise me if Kent's spouting off is part of the solution, for everyone involved.

    2007-09-23 09:35:10
    14.   Bluebleeder87
    (i.e. on the verge of locking Vladimir Guerrero to a contract before the impending ownership change to McCourt)

    I didn't even realize/new the real story about that until TC told me during a game once that it was actually Bud Selig (MLB/commissioners office) who blocked that from happening.

    2007-09-23 09:40:11
    15.   Icaros
    14

    It wasn't Selig directly, it was McCourt sucking up to Selig so he'd get to buy the team.

    2007-09-23 09:42:36
    16.   goofus
    12 Add running to first base on passed balls to your list of things Kemp needs to improve. He may have great talent but I'm starting to think he's a jerk-in-training...
    2007-09-23 09:44:11
    17.   Bluebleeder87
    13

    well I have to admit when I heard Kent's comments on the radio they definitely sounded different but the bottom line IS the kids pulled this ship just as well IF NOT BETTER than the vets & there's #'s to prove that. Another thing is Kent isn't exactly a "TEAM GUY" so you have to take what he says with a grain of salt.

    2007-09-23 09:44:28
    18.   PlayKempDaily
    13. maybe not ALL of us agree but most do! :)

    I wouldn't go as far as to accuse Jeff Kent of being racist, but a butcher @ second? yes

    A poor club house influence? Right now yes.

    A red ass? YES!

    He should let Lugo stick up for himself instead of going public and hanging his manager and teammates out to dry.

    If Kent, Lugo, Nomar aren't back next year... this is one dodger fan who wouldn't mind.

    2007-09-23 09:55:53
    19.   Chris H
    13 Kent is a jerk because he whined to the media. Right or wrong, I don't blame him for his opinions, but if he had a problem with the young players he should have handled it quietly.
    2007-09-23 09:59:45
    20.   Jon Weisman
    18 - First of all, it's not at all true that most people agree with 3 and 4, not here, anyway.

    Also, "red ass" is a term that I'm officially banning here.

    Finally, if the worse thing you can say about a player is that he needs to learn not to get thrown out on the bases as much, I'll take that player. As for effort, show me someone on the Dodgers who runs harder than Kemp.

    2007-09-23 10:01:41
    21.   Jon Weisman
    20 - Let me clarify. I don't think there's a universal opinion on Kent - he's almost too complex for that.
    2007-09-23 10:02:04
    22.   paranoidandroid
    The thing that put this over the edge in my opinion was the game in SF when Kent hit two homers for our only two runs. We had chances to score, namely a runner at third with one out and Ethier up.

    When we lost two of three in SF, that hurt going into the SD series. Had we won at least two in SF, we would have gone to Colorado within a game or two of the wild card after our weekend with AZ and SD sweeping SF.

    Maybe Kent is angling for a trade. If not, his motivational attempts don't translate well outside the clubhouse or the field.

    The youth is our future and the one thing Kent is right about is that you can't get experience without actually playing. Kemp, Loney, Martin, Abreu, Broxton, Bills, and LaRoche are gaining that every at-bat. They are our future. We'll be better off in the long run with these guys on the field.

    2007-09-23 10:02:39
    23.   goofus
    18 Well, two of the three will be back, only Lugo will bid us 'Farewell'. Someone mentioned trading one of the kids in the previous thread to teach the others a lesson. Sorry, I just can't see being sent to Boston or New York or even Chicago as being much of a punishment or a lesson. I think every player, even the kids, understand that being traded or signing a free agent contract to another city is a very real part of baseball and there is a 99% chance it will happen to him. They still make lots of money and live well. Sent down to the minors or DFAed, that's a different story.
    2007-09-23 10:02:44
    24.   immouch
    13/Jon's post
    Well said, Jon. Less well said, 13, but I think I see your point, too. It would be arrogant to pretend to know as much about baseball as Kent knows about baseball. However, Kent, in addition to being a 17 year vet and a dynamite hitter of fastballs, is also an idiot. So that sorta cancels out the experience thing. Plus, he (and, apparently, TJ Simers) is critiquing the play of players who happen to be knocking the snot out of the ball every time they get the opportunity to do so. Are young players young? Sure. Is youth often annoying to people who are no longer young? Absolutely. I think, beyond that, we can look to the poetry of, well, I don't know any poets, but I'm sure some have written about this topic.
    Also, it's possible to think that two thoughts at that same time - that McCort is an empty hat AND that it's smart to keep the young players when they happen to be Kemp, Loney, Martin, Billingsly and Broxton. The ideas are not mutually exclusive.
    2007-09-23 10:05:41
    25.   paranoidandroid
    The man is 39 and leads the team in homers and is hitting over .300

    He is a gamer. He gets hit in the head and plays the next day.

    He wants to win. He wants to win now. In his mind, if the entire team had this attitude we'd be right in this thing still. Perhaps he's right? The young kids aren't experienced enough to appreciate being in a pennant race?

    I was hoping Kent would be the veteran that would be mixed into a productive young line-up next year. I remain hopeful that is the case.

    2007-09-23 10:06:58
    26.   Pedro Astacio
    25. The young kids are playing hard...when they get to play that is.
    2007-09-23 10:10:06
    27.   Jon Weisman
    By the way, Kemp joins the 23-and-older club today.
    2007-09-23 10:10:39
    28.   Pedro Astacio
    27. Congrats.
    2007-09-23 10:10:52
    29.   Bob Timmermann
    In other news, Matt Holliday strained an oblique and may miss today's game in San Diego.

    Or more.

    2007-09-23 10:13:43
    30.   Suffering Bruin
    "... if any idiot can see that the team's future is brighter than its past."

    As my students would say, "day-amn!"

    This is as close as I've seen my main blogger go the name-calling route. A little vitriol instead of cause and effect. Just a touch of Aristotilean pathos instead of the logos he usually adheres to.

    I like it. :)

    By the by, in response to previous posts, Simers is terribly important because of his position. Public opinion is shaped by the media and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts Kemp and Loney will be on the business end of Simers' spew for months to come. Dodger fans will follow. Not us, of course, but many will, particularly when Kemp and Loney inevitably take the bait and talk back to Simers who will then have quotes he can shape to his liking.

    It's going to happen, people. Heck, it's already happened.

    Off to the family breakfast.

    2007-09-23 10:16:19
    31.   PlayKempDaily
    What does Jeff get out of all this? What was his motivation to go public?

    The seasons over, The kids aren't going anywhere?

    Maybe it's more to do with grady little?

    2007-09-23 10:17:45
    32.   Bob Timmermann
    When I was 23,
    it was a very good year.
    It was a very good for speedy guys
    Who hit balls way up into the sky.
    With all that greatness inside.
    I hope it that we make a plea
    Not to get rid of the guy who's 23.

    But now the days grow short
    We're in the autumn of the year
    And now we think of the year as vintage wine
    drunk from fine old kegs
    from the brim to the dregs
    And it poured sweet and clear
    But was it a very good year?

    2007-09-23 10:23:04
    33.   Bluebleeder87
    29

    You know what, I'm actually saddened (sp) about that, the Rox are playing there underdog butts off & I for one want the Rox to sweep the Pads

    2007-09-23 10:26:18
    34.   Bluebleeder87
    30

    Not if Josh Rawitch gets a hold of 'em, I'm really rooting for him on this, BIG TIME!.

    2007-09-23 10:27:47
    35.   Bluebleeder87
    31

    Maybe a little of all & sprinkle some frustration in that mix as well.

    2007-09-23 10:30:02
    36.   Bob Timmermann
    30
    The fact that Simers was instrumental in Kevin Malone's ouster shouldn't be overlooked.
    2007-09-23 10:31:01
    37.   paranoidandroid
    26 I am a big fan of our kids. I don't deny they play hard. My point is that Kent does as well and has for a much longer period of time. He would fit right into this team for next year, at least from my point of view. Unless this disrupts things.

    They had a closed door clubhouse meeting Friday night and Kent and Nomar spoke. We won't know what was said. Then Loney's quote hits the next day. Who knows what is really going on. I suspect much of this is basic frustration and disappointment that the season slipped away when we had a real shot of being in the mix.

    I am glad Kent is upset about not winning. That is what I expect from a team that wants to win. Is he blaming? I suppose. But without being specific, he might just be saying that we need stability and a defined set of roles for next year.

    We are finding our identity this year. I wanted Kemp up from AAA and that made for a four man outfield. I thought that made sense. I also thought Juan would sit at times and that hasn't happened. That means LuGo sat and he had a great first half. That is what frustrated Kent. That and LaRoche who has had accusations in the past of not working to improve enough.

    2007-09-23 10:33:41
    38.   Jon Weisman
    Just want to be clear that my post wasn't aimed at one person. I said, "any idiot" :)
    2007-09-23 10:37:39
    39.   Fallout
    20 Jon Weisman

    I'm glad that you cut those words 3 out of this discussion board. The raciest statement 4 was also over the top. People don't like what Kent said but yet they say even more venomous things.

    2007-09-23 10:44:03
    40.   D4P
    BTW: If the kids are as bad as we're being told, where is the criticism of the GM who put them on the roster in the first place? Has Ned taken any criticism in the MSM whatsoever?
    2007-09-23 10:46:13
    41.   sporky
    Did Simers write TWO columns bashing the Dodgers over the weekend? The man has too much time on his hands:

    It's up to Colletti to take control, and so far he hasn't done it. There's talk Grady Little lost the clubhouse, but in truth it's the Dodgers who have lost a grip on their kids.

    The kids know they're not going to be traded. They know they're something special, management telling them so over and over again. They have no respect for players like Jeff Kent, Luis Gonzalez and Nomar Garciaparra, who are on their way out, although they should hope to have as good a go of it as those guys.

    They have been brought along as a pampered group in the minors, which is going to make it quite the challenge for the next veteran acquired to crack the clique.

    And just wait until you really get to know your heroes: Matt Kemp, offering as much promise as any prospect in baseball, but also a jerk in the making and one of those gifted athletes who doesn't necessarily have to work hard to get by.

    James Loney, hardworking and solid in performance, is also packing an attitude that suggests he needs no more help to prosper.

    You're just going to love cheering for a group of arrogant pro athletes.

    2007-09-23 10:47:25
    42.   immouch
    simers/kent
    i generally like simers' column. he has just one tic i find grating - he pretends to loathe suck-up sportswriters while, at the same time, being the biggest suckup sportswriter there is. to wit, his coverage of kent's tirade. kent blasting his team while that team is still in a playoff hunt isn't leadership, it's narcisism. if anybody else would have done what kent did, simers probably would have described it as such. but kent is simers' bud these days so he gets a pass.
    that's pathetic.
    2007-09-23 10:47:36
    43.   Bob Timmermann
    Simers only criticizes Colletti as working as a puppet for McCourt:

    "The Parking Guy had to find someone willing to go along with a plan that calls for the Dodgers to win somewhere down the road.

    He hired Ned Colletti, who took orders as a public relations guy for the Chicago Cubs and who then worked as second banana for 11 years in San Francisco -- the good soldier with a history of not striking out on his own. Or second-guessing his boss.

    How ironic, though, to find him striking out as GM of the Dodgers so far, toeing the company line, all right, but striking out with one bad Band-Aid hire after bad hire.

    One of his first moves might have been his boldest and his best, overpaying by some estimates for free agent Rafael Furcal, but getting a player who has been brilliant, disappointing this year, but more than likely brilliant again. Hard to come up with many more Colletti highlights."

    2007-09-23 10:48:34
    44.   Howard Fox
    39 I said maybe a racist...and those accusations have been around since he was with the Giants...
    2007-09-23 10:48:51
    45.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
    Don't forget this gem:
    Hard to argue right now with either Kemp or Loney, both finding this game pretty easy to play, and shoving their batting averages into the faces of anyone who might disagree.
    As I said at BBTF, that translates as: "I don't like them, but they're hitting so well there's not much I can do except slag their attitudes."
    2007-09-23 10:49:12
    46.   Jon Weisman
    40 - He's taking it now, but it may be for the absolute wrong reasons. He got the wrong vets, and is being blamed for supporting a youth movement.
    2007-09-23 10:49:26
    47.   PlayKempDaily
    39.

    I don't see how calling Jeff Kent a red ass is over the top. It's a baseball term.

    note: last time you'll see red and ass in the same post from me per jons request.

    2007-09-23 10:50:02
    48.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
    You're just going to love cheering for a group of arrogant pro athletes.
    If they win, I won't care. The athletes' arrogance may cause the writers trouble, but I'm not a writer.
    Suffer, Simers.
    2007-09-23 10:52:43
    49.   D4P
    The Parking Guy had to find someone willing to go along with a plan that calls for the Dodgers to win somewhere down the road

    Um, wasn't DePo that someone...? We're supposed to believe that McCourt replaced DePo with Colletti so that payroll could be reduced and that we'd have a GM who was willing to use cheap kids instead of expensive vets?

    2007-09-23 10:53:44
    50.   Howard Fox
    I guess the main point of all this is that Simers is a pretty damn good writer, causes all to pause and discuss his articles, bringing attention and readership to the LA Times...i.e., his job??
    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2007-09-23 10:55:42
    51.   Pedro Astacio
    I don't think Kemp and Loney are arrogant. They seem rather nice to me. it's Ethier that really needs an attitude change.
    2007-09-23 10:56:55
    52.   Howard Fox
    51 and your personal involvement with, and knowledge of, them was what again??
    2007-09-23 10:58:19
    53.   Jon Weisman
    Question/Open Chat at Screen Jam.
    2007-09-23 10:58:50
    54.   KG16
    I'm going to point out one thing about Kent and his desire to win/hatred of losing. In general, those are very good things to have in an athlete. Unfortunately, you still have to communicate those things the right way to your teammates and to the public.

    As an athlete, I was almost always the most competitive guy on the team. But it took me a long time to learn how to be a leader. I use to get mad at teammates who were loafing, I'd call guys out, and looking back, was pretty much a jerk. Once I figured it out, things worked much better - but it was at the expense of a couple of potentially very good teams.

    That's the biggest problem I see with Kent right now. Sure, he puts up great numbers. Yes, he's driven and competitive. But he's lacking some clubhouse intangibles. At this point of his career I don't expect him to change, but I would at least hope he realizes that being a veteran doesn't mean that he is a de facto leader. Just go out and play your game, be one of the guys - at least as much as you can.

    2007-09-23 11:00:08
    55.   Jon Weisman
    50 - Being good at his job and being a good writer ... not necessarily the same thing at all.
    2007-09-23 11:01:43
    56.   Howard Fox
    I happen to like his style of writing. That makes one of us. And us spending the better part of the weekend discussing his thoughts...
    2007-09-23 11:02:26
    57.   sporky
    From Leung's game recap:

    Manager Grady Little confirmed that he met with second baseman Jeff Kent regarding comments he made Thursday criticizing the team's young players. Kent pulled aside one of the youngsters before the game.

    I wonder what the nature of that conversation was.

    2007-09-23 11:02:36
    58.   KG16
    41 - this is LA, we turn arrogant athletes into lovable superstars. All we ask is that they win a championship, or three.
    2007-09-23 11:02:43
    59.   Howard Fox
    But you are correct, they aren't necessarily the same thing...
    2007-09-23 11:02:43
    60.   Bob Timmermann
    55
    Simers has a position where he can write just about anything and if people disagree he can just claim that they don't get his joke.

    Dictators would love such an arrangement.

    2007-09-23 11:03:38
    61.   Howard Fox
    58 and that the woman they abuse isn't one we know personally
    2007-09-23 11:04:25
    62.   Bob Timmermann
    Phillies take a 2-1 lead at RFK. On a single by Dobbs who went to second on a bad pickoff throw by the catcher and then on to third when Austin Kearns failed to pick up the errant throw. Carlos Ruiz scored Dobbs with a bloop single.

    Cole Hamels is being pinch hit for in the sixth.

    Florida leads the Mets 2-0.

    2007-09-23 11:04:38
    63.   fanerman
    So, what's the basis for calling the young players arrogant?
    2007-09-23 11:04:52
    64.   D4P
    Simers has a position where he can write just about anything

    And there's no one to hold him accountable or challenge him for flip-flopping or any such thing.

    Dictators would love such an arrangement

    I think Deciders love it too.

    2007-09-23 11:05:14
    65.   Howard Fox
    62 wouldn't that be something if the Mets didn't make the playoffs
    2007-09-23 11:05:22
    66.   oswald
    simers hasn't written much about the dodgers this year, but i guess he's only around to kick them while they're down. fwiw, i think he does make a good point about the roster going into next year in that the team is going to be VERY young, and that could be a bad situation. young, wealthy, famous men have a tendency to make bad decisions.
    2007-09-23 11:06:00
    67.   Pedro Astacio
    52. Spring Training, I saw Ethier refusing to sign autographs.
    2007-09-23 11:06:20
    68.   eusmus
    Reggie Willits and Dustin Pedroia - "Confident"
    Matt Kemp and James Loney - "Arrogant"

    Who needs talent when you can have nice guys? I'm sure the Cardinals would love to trade us David Eckstein for some promising youngsters.

    2007-09-23 11:06:35
    69.   Bluebleeder87
    Little 'ol me ain't reading his stuff anymore, fairness is all I ask for.
    2007-09-23 11:06:53
    70.   Howard Fox
    66 isn't that why we have managers and coaches?

    as I recall, Arizona is quite young as well

    2007-09-23 11:07:00
    71.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
    Just a hunch, but I think McNabb figured out what he's been doing wrong.
    2007-09-23 11:08:10
    72.   Howard Fox
    71 did Coletti just pick him up as our set up man?
    2007-09-23 11:08:44
    73.   Jon Weisman
    56 - He can write. But his thought process is often just way off - sometimes purposely, it would seem. And thinking is part of writing.
    2007-09-23 11:08:59
    74.   Bob Timmermann
    68
    I think there's another difference between the "confident" and "arrogant" groups that you're overlooking.

    It's as clear as black and white.

    2007-09-23 11:09:35
    75.   sporky
    69 - Me neither. I'll take Tony Jackson over Simers any day.
    2007-09-23 11:10:21
    76.   Howard Fox
    73 I happen to see him as sarcastic and ironic...which I personally enjoy...
    2007-09-23 11:10:55
    77.   Howard Fox
    74 now look who is calling the kettle black
    2007-09-23 11:11:14
    78.   Bluebleeder87
    So, what's the basis for calling the young players arrogant?

    They rock & they know it!

    2007-09-23 11:12:09
    79.   PlayKempDaily
    67.

    I asked Kurt Gibson for an autograph after an angel game when I was a little and he told me get lost kid. I think he played for the Royals at the time. I'll never forget that day, he was my hero.

    2007-09-23 11:12:34
    80.   Sam DC
    I looked for that Jimenez jersey today Bob but no luck.

    Sold out I guess.

    2007-09-23 11:12:54
    81.   Bob Timmermann
    77
    What can I say?
    Gary Sheffield's book touched me deeply.
    2007-09-23 11:14:37
    82.   Bob Timmermann
    A 2-run homer by Heart and Soul ties it up for the Mets.

    Nats threatening to tie it up at RFK with 1st and 3rd and no outs.

    2007-09-23 11:17:17
    83.   Sam DC
    Don Sutton: "That one would have been low to Eddie Gaedel."

    (It was called a strike.)

    2007-09-23 11:17:30
    84.   oswald
    70 i don't think you really understood my point. i'm not saying that it's doomed to fail, just that there is a certain volatility there that you can't ignore. yes, it's worked before, but i can think of other situations where it has been an unmitigated disaster.
    2007-09-23 11:18:17
    85.   Fallout
    I question the Dodger farm system and their coaches. How can a player come through the system and have so many basic base running mistakes? I haven't seen many Dodger games to know if there are other issues too, like calling off someone on a fly ball then letting it drop.:) By the time I was 18 I had a good idea about base running because my HS coach was a fanatic at teaching all the fundamentals. If a HS coach can accomplish that...
    2007-09-23 11:19:55
    86.   Bob Timmermann
    85
    You are also assuming that other teams don't have players who make baserunning mistakes.

    All teams have players that screw up.

    And they're of all ages.

    2007-09-23 11:20:08
    87.   Lexinthedena
    Been away from DT for awhile...

    My grandmother, who was as passionate of a Dodger fan as there could be, passed away on Thursday. Alzheimer's disease is brutal. Had she had her mind, she would have loved this site. Thanks again for creating such a forum.

    2007-09-23 11:20:57
    88.   Bob Timmermann
    87
    You have my deepest condolences. I'm sure she followed the Dodgers in her own way.
    2007-09-23 11:21:18
    89.   Howard Fox
    sorry to hear it
    2007-09-23 11:22:45
    90.   Sam DC
    Sad news Lex; that's a real tough road. Hope you and your family're doing OK.
    2007-09-23 11:23:14
    91.   PlayKempDaily
    That's terrible. :(
    2007-09-23 11:24:48
    92.   sporky
    87 - I'm so sorry. Alzheimer's is a horrible, horrible disease.
    2007-09-23 11:25:24
    93.   sporky
    Kid's day (as per Diamond's blog):

    Pierre, cf
    Abreu, 2b
    Kemp, rf
    Loney, 1b
    Martin, c
    Ethier, lf
    LaRoche, 3b
    Hu, ss
    Billingsley, p

    2007-09-23 11:25:46
    94.   Lexinthedena
    88- It's tue, in her state she had decided that Jackie Robinson was her best friend. It actually made her quite happy.
    2007-09-23 11:28:45
    95.   Bob Timmermann
    Nats take a 3-2 lead, but Utley starts a great DP against Church to end the inning.
    2007-09-23 11:30:07
    96.   Bob Timmermann
    93
    Apparently, we're speechless.
    2007-09-23 11:30:08
    97.   willhite
    As long as Grady has decided to go "young" for the day, why not sit JP and start Young?

    Juan could always come in to pinch hit and keep his streak alive that way.

    2007-09-23 11:31:37
    98.   sporky
    In recent weeks, whenever Grady put together a predominantly young team, they've failed to produce. I hope they kick some serious tail today.
    2007-09-23 11:32:38
    99.   shamrok
    97.

    Consecutive games baby!

    2007-09-23 11:32:46
    100.   Howard Fox
    there must be something in his contract that says he starts every game...isn't he closing in on the consecutive game record?
    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2007-09-23 11:33:57
    101.   Howard Fox
    98 and if they don't produce today, everyone will point and say "see??"
    2007-09-23 11:35:33
    102.   Howard Fox
    and if they do produce, those same people will say anyone can play with no pressure
    2007-09-23 11:36:57
    103.   Bob Timmermann
    Pierre is closing in on Ripken's record at the same rate as I'm approaching my 100th birthday.
    2007-09-23 11:37:27
    104.   D4P
    102
    "That LaRoche. He only plays well when it doesn't count."
    2007-09-23 11:37:36
    105.   The Mootz
    To the 2007 Dodgers manager, GM, and players:

    "FLAT! HEARTS! I HATE FLAT HEARTS!"
    "FLAT! HEARTS! I HATE FLAT HEARTS!"

    2007-09-23 11:37:41
    106.   Lexinthedena
    Is it only in L.A that the media knows so little about it's baseball team?
    2007-09-23 11:37:45
    107.   willhite
    99,100

    It's consecutive games played, not started. I don't think he's even started every game since he's been with the Dodgers.

    2007-09-23 11:39:24
    108.   Bob Timmermann
    Pierre didn't start two games this year and Brady Clark started in center.
    2007-09-23 11:41:23
    109.   Bob Timmermann
    Gigantor in to relieve for the Nats with two on and one out to face Rowand.
    2007-09-23 11:41:54
    110.   willhite
    108 -

    Thank you Bob. Therefore, no reason he can't sit for the beginning of the game and be brought in later to pinch run, pinch hit or to relieve toward the end of the game so we don't have to use Hernandez :)

    2007-09-23 11:46:19
    111.   Bob Timmermann
    No runs for the Phillies. Nats lead 3-2 going to the bottom of the 7th.

    Mets and Fish still tied 2-2 after 5.

    2007-09-23 11:46:55
    112.   MollyKnight
    Maybe I'm totally naive, but I'm kind of glad this implosion happened. There were obviously some issues that needed to be addressed this off-season, and I don't think they would have been so glaring had we not gone into this slide.

    I still don't see why we don't sign A-Rod. Doesn't that pretty much fix everything?

    2007-09-23 11:47:57
    113.   eusmus
    110 I'm sure Pierre's LaLob would bring back a lot of memories for Andy.

    112 I just wish the right people were being blamed for it.

    2007-09-23 11:48:54
    114.   sporky
    112 - I'm afraid it might highlight the wrong things (i.e. youth movement = bad, PVL = important).

    But I agree about A-Rod. It's an expensive but effective panacea.

    2007-09-23 11:52:50
    115.   Bob Timmermann
    113
    Andy was born the same year his dad pitched his last season in the majors.
    2007-09-23 11:54:51
    116.   eusmus
    115 Pfft, you think he's never played catch with his old man?
    2007-09-23 11:58:44
    117.   StolenMonkey86
    Today is also former utility infielder Woody Woodward's birthday. Woody Woodward had the most striking name on the birthday list at B-R. For his career, he hit .294 (5 for 17) against Sandy Koufax.
    2007-09-23 12:06:01
    118.   StolenMonkey86
    I still don't see why we don't sign A-Rod. Doesn't that pretty much fix everything?

    Well, yes. It's just a matter of whether or not it's worth $250 million over 7 years.

    2007-09-23 12:10:16
    119.   Bob Timmermann
    116
    Andy and Dave only played Burnout.

    Dave expected his sons to be good.

    2007-09-23 12:11:06
    120.   Howard Fox
    119 and yes, the were well behaved
    2007-09-23 12:11:52
    121.   Bob Timmermann
    Hey, Andrew Shimmin sponsors Andy LaRoche's BR page.

    He's investing in futures.

    2007-09-23 12:12:27
    122.   Eric Enders
    117 , 118 Great juxtaposition there. Woody Woodward was the man who originally drafted A-Rod.
    2007-09-23 12:12:35
    123.   Andrew Shimmin
    What are the chances that the only reason Kent had his little tirade was that LaRoche hit his first home run, that night, and was a little too happy about it?
    2007-09-23 12:13:39
    124.   Bob Timmermann
    Edwin Jackson had given just one hit through 5 to Boston and Tampa Bay led 4-0, but the Sox have loaded the bases on two singles and a walk and Ortiz is up.
    2007-09-23 12:14:30
    125.   Eric Enders
    I have never spent more than 30 seconds thinking about Woody Woodward before, but I thought this Wikipedia tidbit was amusing:

    "He had an unusual scare near the end of his playing career on September 4, 1971, when a 10-pound sack of flour which had been dropped from an airplane exploded on impact 15 feet away from him in the ninth inning of a game at Dodger Stadium."

    2007-09-23 12:14:51
    126.   Bob Timmermann
    4-2 Nats in the 8th on a pinch single by Fick.

    Fans in NYC and San Diego may be breathing easier.

    2007-09-23 12:15:24
    127.   Howard Fox
    Kent also wasn't too happy when, during a pitching change a couple of days ago, Loney went over to socialize with Chris Young who was on 2nd base at the time...
    2007-09-23 12:16:55
    128.   Eric Enders
    123 Wha? LaRoche acted like Buster Keaton on his home run. I don't think he even cracked a smile. Which must have taken great self-control.
    2007-09-23 12:17:07
    129.   Bluebleeder87
    I was hoping Josh Rawitch would have addressed T.J Simers article on ItD but I guess not...
    2007-09-23 12:19:26
    130.   Eric Enders
    129 After what's happened this week, I think he's probably done criticizing the media for a while. He should have saved his "embarrassing" salvo for someone who deserved it, probably.
    2007-09-23 12:20:20
    131.   Bob Timmermann
    125
    If that event happened, it wasn't reported in the L.A. Times.

    That story has the strong whiff of apocrypha.

    Don't you think Vin Scully would have mentioned that story sometime?

    Also the Reds didn't play in the field in the ninth inning as the Dodgers won the game 2-1. And Woodward didn't bat either.

    2007-09-23 12:20:38
    132.   Andrew Shimmin
    128- Kent (and Simers) are mind readers. He didn't have to smile for his crimes against baseball to be discovered.
    2007-09-23 12:22:06
    133.   trainwreck
    Well the lineup definitely makes this game more interesting.
    2007-09-23 12:22:48
    134.   Gen3Blue
    Oh boy, I just saw the line-up!!
    2007-09-23 12:23:02
    135.   Bob Timmermann
    The Woodward incident now smacks of a coverup.

    ProQuest does not have a copy of the September 5, 1971 LA Times avaiable.

    2007-09-23 12:25:52
    136.   berkowit28
    As has been pointed out before, the Kent frustration points up a genuine generation gap. For Kent, especially, and other vets who care (Gonzo, Nomar), not to make the playoffs really is the end of the world. They probably will never get to the World Series now. For the kids. no matter how much they also wanted to get there, tried to get there, and were more effective for the games they were allowed to play in, it's just the beginning of things. They will get there - I'm sure that's how they feel. Next year, or the year after, or in 5 years. (Of course, some will not, but they probably all think they will. And some will.)

    That's the generation gap. That's why the kids can still have fun, and joke around, even if the team is losing this year. For them, there's "next year". For Kent, well, barely. He's really depressed, seeing his life's dream go down the drain (his Toronto rung came so early, and he was so incidental to his team in 92, he probably feels just now as if it doesn't count). The fact that the kids aren't similarly affected must really grate. But he should have kept it to himself.

    2007-09-23 12:28:08
    137.   Bob Timmermann
    There are no references to Woody Woodward nearly being hit by a bag of flour in the LA Times or NY Times.

    Why would an airplane be dropping a bag of flour?

    2007-09-23 12:28:49
    138.   Eric Enders
    131 This page...
    http://ask.metafilter.com/62565/Woody-Woodward-vs-Flour-Photograph
    ...claims that the incicent was mentioned in the Dayton Daily News.

    Also,
    "IN THE NEWS: In Los Angeles, the Reds lose to the Dodgers, 2–1, and almost lose SS Woody Woodward. A 10-pound sack of flour dropped from a passing airplane, explodes 15 feet from where Woodward is positioned in the 9th inning." This was an incident in a game back in 1971.... I believe it was Vin Scully who alertly announced to the stunned crowd for anyone with binoculars to get any information they could about the passing plane, (number on wing?), which helped identify the persons later."
    http://tinyurl.com/36wsaf

    2007-09-23 12:30:29
    139.   Bob Timmermann
    For the time being, Woody Woodward has not been attacked by a bag of flour, according to Wikipedia.
    2007-09-23 12:30:48
    140.   Marty
    I love the smell of apocrypha in the morning.
    2007-09-23 12:33:00
    141.   Bob Timmermann
    138
    But Woody Woodward was sitting in the dugout in the 9th inning.
    2007-09-23 12:33:28
    142.   underdog
    I'm still trying to figure out what 105 meant, but am prepared to laugh if someone explains it to me.

    Yeah, when the Dodgers are officially out of it, will Pierre finally sit and come in as a PH or something? C'mon. Well, whatever, I'm fine with him in there today, given the rest of the line-up, but it would be fun to see DYoung in there.

    I still say this implosion and Kent's outburst could actually have helped this year's team if it happened 2 months ago. But we'll never know.

    2007-09-23 12:34:09
    143.   D4P
    Bob's one of those guys who ruins the magic of baseball by using facts.

    Not that I'm surprised. The guy's no fun.

    2007-09-23 12:34:16
    144.   Howard Fox
    141 eating a sandwich
    2007-09-23 12:35:32
    145.   Bob Timmermann
    Phils make it 5-3 and have runners on 1st and 2nd with one out and Wes Helms up.
    2007-09-23 12:37:14
    146.   Bob Timmermann
    Helms whiffs. Old friend Werth is the Phils last chance.
    2007-09-23 12:38:01
    147.   alnyden
    Simers article was a purely emotional reaction to the Dodgers losing and flew in the face of every fact and statistic. And because he can't back up his argument with logic or facts he bashes the character of our young players (also not backed up by anything of substance).

    I was so frustrated I e-mailed him, and he wrote back "if the young players are so good why are the Dodgers in 4th place?" Well, gee, I don't know. Maybe because the vets didn't produce and our ace pitcher didn't pitch this season? How about we expect the players making 7-13 million dollars a year to earn their salary instead of blaming 1st and 2nd year players making 1/10th as much but who actually produce? How about putting the responsibility of club leadership with the vets instead of our 2nd year catcher?

    John, your post says it all. I am so disappointed in the end of the season -- not that the Dodgers lost or didn't make the playoffs, but because of Jeff Kent's comments and these youth-bashing articles that have no basis in reality.

    2007-09-23 12:38:15
    148.   Eric Enders
    Bob is going to have to reinstate the Wiki entry!

    "MYSTERIOUS FLOUR BOMB FALLS IN DODGER INFIELD

    A huge sack of flour splattered on the Dodger Stadium infield Saturday night about 10 feet in front of Cincinnati shortstop Woody Woodward.

    Dodger officials reported the event to the Federal Aviation Administration.

    Nobody reported seeing or hearing an aircraft pass over the stadium when the flour fell in the bottom of the fifth inning. The sack of flour was heavy enough to kill anyone it hit.

    Last year a sack of bottles fell on the playing field but there was no injury."

    - Oxnard Press-Courier, Oct. 5, 1971

    2007-09-23 12:38:22
    149.   bhsportsguy
    Is it so terrible if there are grains of truth in Simers' column?
    2007-09-23 12:38:24
    150.   Bluebleeder87
    Well it looks like the D-Rays are having there way against the BoSox & Taveras is out of the game.
    Show/Hide Comments 151-200
    2007-09-23 12:38:46
    151.   Bob Timmermann
    I found Hal McCoy's story. It was written in 2000. And McCoy said the event happened in 1970, not 1971.

    Yet in 1970 there is still no mention of Woody Woodward getting attacked from the sky.

    2007-09-23 12:39:30
    152.   Bob Timmermann
    So long, RFK.

    Werth whiffs. Nats win 5-3.

    2007-09-23 12:40:39
    153.   bhsportsguy
    Phillies finally lose 5-3. The Nats win the last game at RFK.
    2007-09-23 12:43:31
    154.   D4P
    Juan Pierre and Short Chris Young provide an interesting contrast.

    Pierre: .290/.328/.351/.679
    Young: .239/.299/.481/.779

    Which set of numbers would you rather have, especially for a "leadoff" hitter?

    2007-09-23 12:44:10
    155.   Eric Enders
    The Woodward Incident was also reported the next day in the Butte (Montana) Standard and the Van Nuys Valley News.
    2007-09-23 12:45:36
    156.   Bluebleeder87
    149

    the grains of truth are so small that it makes his whole article LAUGHABLE! & then 147 drops the little tid bit of what Simers e-mailed Alnyden back, you just can't help & laugh at Simers integrity. The fact is Simers didn't write a FAIR article PERIOD! it's almost insulting.

    2007-09-23 12:47:43
    157.   Bluebleeder87
    152 153

    that's a pretty nice story. "The Nats win there finale game in that stadium" (I don't know the name of it sorry) I can see the head lines.

    2007-09-23 12:48:58
    158.   dzzrtRatt
    Certainly, the on-field implosion of the second half has made A-Rod a more live possibility. McCourt's PR sense if nothing else would inevitably guide him there. And if there is room for more fans and the possibility of squeezing out a few 4 mil attendance seasons (and bigger road cuts, and maybe a fatter TV contract, and maybe another boost in parking, plus merchandising, special A-Rod hot dogs, etc.), I think Frank would feel like he's got to get into the bidding. The problem is whether we'll ever have the opportunity.

    I don't think there is any possibility of the Dodgers winning anything in the short run without A-Rod. In the long run, perhaps, if McCourt and Colletti don't lose patience with the young players, who I think are coming in for such unfair criticism now. I'm not talking about Kent -- whose comments I still maintain were not interpreted correctly -- but about the constant media and fan attention to any flaws or mistakes they make. Some of these guys are going to be ruined by it unless there is someone better than Kent perceived as "leading" the team in the next few years.

    Edwin Jackson is the instructive example. Way too much was expected of him way too early. He still hasn't delivered, but at least now he's in an environment where his learning curve can proceed, and the possibility continues to exist that he will become a consistent 12-15 game winner, a solid #2 or #3 starter. But it takes time. Out here, if our young guys can't produce with the rapidity of a Russell Martin, they get picked apart. Even if they do (Kemp, Loney), they get picked apart.

    Everyone wants to reproduce the "great Dodger teams of the 70s." But what was the real timeline for that team? Drafted in '68, first division win in '74. By that calender, we'll be doing better than they were if we can win the division next year, with 2009 and beyond the more likely period of greatest success. Can this management, this area's media and these fans wait that long? No. But if we get A-Rod, the others will be able to develop in his shadow.

    2007-09-23 12:49:45
    159.   Andrew Shimmin
    149- It is, as far as I'm concerned, pretty terrible to accept somebody's being called a jerk if it isn't true, especially if no evidence is given.

    It's certainly plausible that any given professional athlete is a jerk. Lots of people are jerks, and athletes, as a group, don't seem to be underrepresented. At least when it was decided that JtD was a jerk, there were (what I considered) the thin reeds of his having been disappointed over his demotion, and having once failed to run out a ground ball. What are we hanging our hats on this time? At some point, is there going to be an accusation of some jerky behavior?

    Is taking Simers word for it that somebody is a jerk substantively different from doing the same on Don Rickles' say so? I've never had a lot of use for him, so I'm not particularly objective here, but isn't Simers a professional name-caller?

    2007-09-23 12:49:57
    160.   Bob Timmermann
    155
    The next day of which year? 1970? 1971?

    The Van Nuys Valley News wasn't the name of a paper then.

    There was a paper called the Van Nuys News and Green Sheet and it only came out four days a week. It usually didn't cover the Dodgers at the time.

    2007-09-23 12:49:58
    161.   Bluebleeder87
    Somebody mentioned earlier today that today is Matt Kemp's birthday, I hope he has a good day at the plate & gets us our first W in a while.
    2007-09-23 12:50:48
    162.   Eric Enders
    158 "I don't think there is any possibility of the Dodgers winning anything in the short run without A-Rod."

    I find that unduly pessimistic, given that we were in first place most of the year and every remotely important player will be returning.

    2007-09-23 12:51:41
    163.   underdog
    So I'm sure this was discussed earlier, but let's look at the numbers:
    How much salary is freed up after this season for the Dodgers, and how much will ARod cost? Is this even a possibility, even with a lot of salaries off the books? I'm thinking, with all the youngsters and their cheapie salaries, even with Schmidt and the like, it can happen.
    2007-09-23 12:52:48
    164.   Eric Enders
    160 1971. See 148 .
    2007-09-23 12:53:56
    165.   underdog
    But yeah, I don't think the Dodgers absolutely have to have A-Rod to win their division next year. Wouldn't take it that far, just would be a lot more likely if they brought him in.
    2007-09-23 12:54:24
    166.   Andrew Shimmin
    Any second now, there's going to be a knock on Bob's door. Assuming self-flagellating, albino monks knock.
    2007-09-23 12:55:32
    167.   Bob Timmermann
    164
    October 5?
    2007-09-23 12:55:47
    168.   Eric Enders
    160 The database I'm looking at calls it the Valley News. The page on which the article appears, which I'm looking at right now, just says "The News," however.
    2007-09-23 12:56:20
    169.   underdog
    Matt Leinart, who's looked awful so far this season, was pulled in the game vs. Baltimore for Kurt Warner, who has lead the Cardinals to two scoring drives...
    2007-09-23 12:57:11
    170.   underdog
    So no explanation for 105 ? I'm very disappointed.
    2007-09-23 12:57:27
    171.   bhsportsguy
    The Yankees have no one remotely close that can replace A-Rod, next year is their last season in (Old) Yankee Stadium, they sold over 4.2 million tickets this year, I cannot foresee, even with losing the Rangers' payment of part of A-Rod's salary, a situation where they will draw the line on how much they will pay him.

    Why not secure the most likely player to break the all-time HR record for another 7 years or so?

    2007-09-23 12:59:08
    172.   Bob Timmermann
    It's this paper:
    http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/32536839

    Valley News and Green Sheet

    2007-09-23 13:01:40
    173.   D4P
    171
    I'm with you. I think the Yankees will want him back, which means they'll offer more money anyone else will, which means Boras will accept.
    2007-09-23 13:02:31
    174.   underdog
    171 I think you're probably right, but what if he decides he wants to play elsewhere? Or if the Yankees match any offer then he has to stay? Not sure exactly how that works...
    2007-09-23 13:03:07
    175.   underdog
    Ah, and then there's the Boras factor.

    The Dodgers would have better luck dealing with Borat.

    Feh.

    2007-09-23 13:05:33
    176.   dzzrtRatt
    162 We're set at two of the four infield positions (Loney/Furcal optimistically), we have another year of Pierre. So three question marks/potential black holes among the starting eight. I'm confident of Penny and Billingsley in the starting rotation, somewhat confident of Lowe. But one of the two major flaws of this season, lack of back-end starting pitchers who were even remotely reliable only is solved in the short run if we assume Schmidt and Loiza will come back healthy. The other flaw, lack of power, is only solved from the outside, unless we think Kemp, Loney and Martin will pick up significantly in the HR department. Could happen, but nothing to count on.

    Surveying that situation, you and I might say, okay, let's see what happens. Let's let our players develop. Squeeze whatever remaining value exists in Kent and Nomar as we transition in LaRoche, Abreu and Hu. Suffer through the learning curve of all the young players without panicking if we go into a long slump.

    But Colletti won't do that. He'll tinker in ways that are potentially counterproductive.

    A-Rod offsets and diverts that. Even if we lose, Colletti will feel like he did all he could do. But the likelihood of winning increases exponentially. And if (example) Kemp only hits 10 home runs next season -- "sophomore slump" -- no one will freak out, because A-Rod will hit 50.

    Added bonus. A-Rod's position flexibility. Maybe we can have A-Rod and LaRoche in the same infield. Or A-Rod and an extended Furcal, or Hu.

    A-Rod is worth more to the Dodgers than to any other team in the majors next year, except the Yankees. So we should be willing to pay for the many, many benefits he would bring.

    2007-09-23 13:06:38
    177.   Bob Timmermann
    Eric is free to put back the Woody Woodward/sack of flour incident into Wikipedia.

    I won't be convinced until Woody Woodward tells me.

    2007-09-23 13:07:38
    178.   Bob Timmermann
    And on the day of the last Sunday home game in San Francisco, the Giants are starting Fred Lewis in left field.
    2007-09-23 13:08:17
    179.   bhsportsguy
    Trust me, there are more folks in San Diego upset because the Chargers are 1-2 versus the Padres 2 game losing streak.
    2007-09-23 13:08:36
    180.   dzzrtRatt
    171 I also agree. I certainly don't count on A-Rod being available. If he is, though, I think the Boras factor can and should be overcome.
    2007-09-23 13:08:52
    181.   Pedro Astacio
    Pierre, CF

    Abreu, 2B

    Kemp, RF

    Loney, 1B

    Martin, C

    Ethier, LF

    LaRoche, 3B

    Hu, SS

    Billingsley, P

    Yay for Hu.

    2007-09-23 13:09:03
    182.   D4P
    178
    Maybe their other leftfielder is pouting.
    2007-09-23 13:13:28
    183.   Bob Timmermann
    182
    Nate Schierholtz or Dave Roberts?
    2007-09-23 13:15:13
    184.   D4P
    183
    Nate, of course. Dave is a happy guy.
    2007-09-23 13:15:20
    185.   WillieD
    181 It's as if the team has read Jon's column today. Hoorah! Looking forward to watthing today's youth, led by Billingley.... Looks as if we will have Vin on Extra Innings too.
    2007-09-23 13:21:13
    186.   Pedro Astacio
    Can't wait to see Hu hit 4 home runs today.
    2007-09-23 13:25:11
    187.   Bob Timmermann
    Holliday is not playing in San Diego for Colorado.
    2007-09-23 13:27:22
    188.   Bob Timmermann
    Uggla homers in the bottom of the 9th and the Marlins tie the Mets at 6-6.
    2007-09-23 13:30:34
    189.   D4P
    I'd like to see the Phillies win the east and the Padres win the wild card. I'm not expecting that to happen.
    2007-09-23 13:31:54
    190.   Bob Timmermann
    My Extra Innings broadcast of the Marlins-Mets game cut out so they could show a blank screen for the Dodgers-DBacks game.
    2007-09-23 13:32:43
    191.   Bluebleeder87
    176

    Really nicely said dzzrtRatt, your last sentence pretty much says everything.

    2007-09-23 13:33:35
    192.   Bob Timmermann
    This stat on YES.

    Yankee reliever ERAs in past 29 games:
    Chamberlain and Rivera: 0.94
    Other guys: 8.81

    2007-09-23 13:34:53
    193.   Eric Enders
    In order for me to see the Dodger game, Todd Linden needs to hit a walk-off home run right here.
    2007-09-23 13:36:02
    194.   Bob Timmermann
    193
    But even a triple's OK?
    2007-09-23 13:38:58
    195.   sanchez101
    i really like this lineup, if ned could some how trade furcal for a leadoff type CF and throw pay pierre to go away id like to see this 2-8 next season
    2007-09-23 13:39:22
    196.   Eric Enders
    If anyone wants to sign up for MLB.tv, it's only $30 for the rest of the season!
    2007-09-23 13:40:24
    197.   JoeyP
    I find that unduly pessimistic, given that we were in first place most of the year and every remotely important player will be returning.

    I disagree.
    This Dodger team will finish in 4th place/10 games out of 1st place most likely. Thats rather significant.

    2007-09-23 13:41:22
    198.   Eric Enders
    For those on Extra Innings, the Dodger game has been bumped to Channel 4.
    2007-09-23 13:45:09
    199.   Andrew Shimmin
    Scrappy.
    2007-09-23 13:46:14
    200.   Bob Timmermann
    They're saying "Abre-ooooooo"!
    Show/Hide Comments 201-250
    2007-09-23 13:46:18
    201.   Bluebleeder87
    it could have been 2-0 on the Abreu dinger.
    2007-09-23 13:47:49
    202.   Connector
    Hi everybody -
    Does anyone know how I can watch the game video on MLB.TV but without having to listen to Mark Grace? I can't stand him.
    2007-09-23 13:47:52
    203.   Bob Timmermann
    These hits are all out of order.

    The whole system's out of order!

    2007-09-23 13:48:04
    204.   ucladodger
    this is how we should hit Edgar Gonzalez. The guy really doesnt have much of anything.
    2007-09-23 13:48:19
    205.   Marty
    Argh. I'm stuck at work and the always flaky cable system here isn't showing the game. Maybe I'll wander over and harass TJ
    2007-09-23 13:48:39
    206.   Bob Timmermann
    Rockies take a 1-0 lead on a Helton double in the third.
    2007-09-23 13:51:58
    207.   Bluebleeder87
    I bet Russell wishes he had that pitche back! right down the pipe/his wheel house!
    2007-09-23 13:53:30
    208.   natepurcell
    so, why is it incredibly hard for the LA media to accept the fact that we have talented, young players that should be playing the majority of the time and that its not because of them that we are in the position we are?
    2007-09-23 13:54:28
    209.   nick
    LOVE the lineup!.....if that young punk Pierre had shown a little patience on the basepaths the Dodgers'd be in the middle of a big inning right now.....
    2007-09-23 13:55:45
    210.   natepurcell
    did everyone see that msnbc article by Michael Ventre? Its worst then a Simers article.
    2007-09-23 13:56:52
    211.   Bob Timmermann
    210
    It was hacked to a million little pieces last night I believe.
    2007-09-23 13:57:53
    212.   JoeyP
    Is anyone surprised Andre Ethier is being singled out recently for his attitude?

    Didnt he win the good citizen award in the Oakland organization? Wasnt that one of the reason Ned traded Bradley for him--his character?

    Speaking of Bradley, he ties it up with a homer in San Diego. 1-1.

    2007-09-23 13:58:16
    213.   natepurcell
    211

    Did any DTers write to Ventre explaining nicely how much of a moron he is?

    2007-09-23 13:58:30
    214.   nick
    wrt the, ulp, crimson donkey: I remember Bill Lee writing that Burleson possessed such an animal--"some guys get mad if they're behind, but Rick was if the game was even tied"--always liked that line....
    2007-09-23 13:58:35
    215.   MollyKnight
    I love Joba Chamberlain so much.
    2007-09-23 13:58:49
    216.   trainwreck
    Good start for the young guns.
    2007-09-23 14:00:27
    217.   Bluebleeder87
    Let's do this Bills...
    2007-09-23 14:01:41
    218.   JoeyP
    Selig has to love how the playoff are shaping up---most major TV markets represented.

    Anaheim--LA
    Mets/Yankees---NY
    Cubs---Chicago
    Red Sox---Boston

    Cleveland, Arizona, San Diego arent great media markets--but MLB has to be pretty happy I suspect. They'll be the biggest Cubs fans of anyone.

    2007-09-23 14:01:43
    219.   nick
    208 cause the LA media are grumpy guys who feel their livelihoods are threatened by talented young bloggers?
    2007-09-23 14:02:31
    220.   Bob Timmermann
    Mets back ahead in the 10th, 7-6 and have two on and none out.
    2007-09-23 14:02:56
    221.   StolenMonkey86
    122 - Wow, that's amazing.
    2007-09-23 14:03:25
    222.   Bob Timmermann
    The Mets game is in the 11th actually.
    2007-09-23 14:03:26
    223.   Andrew Shimmin
    208- Now is not the time for such stories. When the team is in first place, that's when you talk about how good the young players are. Right now they have to explain why the year is over; none of them have any bleeding clue (this I don't understand, but I think it can be attributed to indifference to the subject). So they make stuff up. Kent was kind enough to provide the template--but they took it and ran with it, making up new, complementary stuff.

    Next year the stories will be about the talented young players, again, if the team is winning. If they have another ho-hum year, it'll be about what despicable people they are. Again.

    2007-09-23 14:06:11
    224.   Bluebleeder87
    That was a nice call by Ethier to catch it, we all know Pierre has a noodle arm.
    2007-09-23 14:06:18
    225.   Bob Timmermann
    Rockies go single, triple, single and score twice to lead 3-1.
    2007-09-23 14:06:48
    226.   Pedro Astacio
    Rockies up 3-1, we might not get eliminated today.
    2007-09-23 14:08:41
    227.   bhsportsguy
    218 It is yet to be proven that the Angels will draw an LA TV audience (short of the World Series). I would not be surprised if the Yankee games draw as many fans as the Angel games will in LA.

    211 Ventre's column is a little extreme but the evidence he is not making up anything.

    It seems that some here are just a little sensitive when it comes to any criticism directed at the younger players, first both Ventre and Simers (aside from Simers "entitlement comments" re youth) are directing most of their hits at management.

    And again, no matter what you think of Ned, he did not trade the bulk of the youngsters that were here when he arrived so if it was plan or not, the evidence points toward the Dodgers going with their younger players than dealing them for help.

    And I think there is no question, for older players, they would rather play with older guys, so Simers earlier point about guys being able to adapt themselves to the adjustment was a key thing that perhaps did not happen this year.

    2007-09-23 14:09:26
    228.   Bluebleeder87
    225

    I wanna see them win (underdog factor) but it would be nice seeing the Dodgers beat them badly when they come in to town.

    2007-09-23 14:10:24
    229.   Marty
    Gameday shows Billingsley's first pitch went through Reynolds' knee.
    2007-09-23 14:10:59
    230.   natepurcell
    This has been a slow game so far.
    2007-09-23 14:11:09
    231.   Bob Timmermann
    Old friend Aaron Sele in for the save in Florida.
    2007-09-23 14:11:19
    232.   natepurcell
    nice play andy!
    2007-09-23 14:12:18
    233.   trainwreck
    Nice defensive play by LaRoche.
    2007-09-23 14:12:20
    234.   bhsportsguy
    Its amazing guys like Aaron Sele and Brett Tomko will have an impact on who gets to the post-season.
    2007-09-23 14:13:29
    235.   silverwidow
    The 2008 3rd baseman flashes his great glove.
    2007-09-23 14:14:21
    236.   Bob Timmermann
    Schoeneweis brought in for a save for the second straight day. Sele got the first two guys out and Randolph went lefty-lefty to face Hermida.
    2007-09-23 14:14:33
    237.   Bob Timmermann
    And the Mets win 7-6.
    2007-09-23 14:14:36
    238.   JoeyP
    227--Ventre's point about not ante'ing up for A-Rod is probably spot on.

    Too much veteran riff raff to make a competitive bid on A-Rod's services I suspect. IF McCourt doesnt sign him, that will be a primary reason because no matter what you may think---the Dodgers payroll isnt unlimited. If the Dodgers didnt have payroll constraints, they'd be making bids on Dice-K, Roger Clemens, etc.

    A-Rod's a must this winter.

    2007-09-23 14:15:07
    239.   Bob Timmermann
    4-1 Rockies now.
    2007-09-23 14:16:41
    240.   Bluebleeder87
    good call by the umpire, no question about it.
    2007-09-23 14:16:44
    241.   natepurcell
    that line is retarded. To run in that lane, its not the most direct route to the bag.
    2007-09-23 14:16:49
    242.   bhsportsguy
    Not a good day for San Diego sports fan.
    2007-09-23 14:16:52
    243.   JoeyP
    These young'uns just cant run the bases!
    2007-09-23 14:17:04
    244.   Bob Timmermann
    And Helton drives in another run and it's 5-1 Rox.
    2007-09-23 14:18:01
    245.   Bob Timmermann
    241
    You're allowed to make a stride outside of the box when you're right in front of the base.

    LaRoche was still a few steps away.

    2007-09-23 14:18:52
    246.   Andrew Shimmin
    227- What's the evidence for this: "the owners of the club, Frank and Jamie McCourt, have decided they would rather populate the roster with low-priced youngsters and make gobs of profit in the process rather than put the absolute best team possible on the field given their revenue stream."

    In what sense is that not just made up? I'm not saying he's knowingly lying; the guy's an idiot, for all I know, he thinks he made a good point. But it's not based on anything I can tell. Just made up. It's as made up as my theory that Pierre is the one speaking Cantonese in the locker room.

    2007-09-23 14:19:16
    247.   Dodgers49
    30. By the by, in response to previous posts, Simers is terribly important because of his position. Public opinion is shaped by the media and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts Kemp and Loney will be on the business end of Simers' spew for months to come.

    I think you're probably correct. Jeff Kent is one of the few people in sports that Simers actually likes. He gets along quite well with the guy he calls "Mr. Chuckles." I can see him bashing Kemp and Loney for months (or years).

    2007-09-23 14:20:06
    248.   Bob Timmermann
    Rule 6.05
    The batter is out when
    (k) In running the last half of the distance from home base to first base, while the ball is being fielded to first base, he runs outside (to the right of) the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of) the foul line, and in the umpire's judgment in so doing interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base, in which case the ball is dead; except that he may run outside (to the right of) the threefoot line or inside (to the left of) the foul line to avoid a fielder attempting to field a batted ball;
    Rule 6.05(k) Comment: The lines marking the three-foot lane are a part of that lane and a batter- runner is required to have both feet within the three-foot lane or on the lines marking the lane. The batter-runner is permitted to exit the three-foot lane by means of a step, stride, reach or slide in the immediate vicinity of first base for the sole purpose of touching first base.
    2007-09-23 14:21:04
    249.   JoeyP
    Wont Simers be trashing Kobe in a few weeks though?

    TJ probably wont write another Dodger related column till next March.

    2007-09-23 14:23:45
    250.   Bluebleeder87
    on a kudos note, they brought up Billingsley as perfectly as one could bring up a Rook pitcher, Kudos Dodger management.
    Show/Hide Comments 251-300
    2007-09-23 14:25:15
    251.   bhsportsguy
    The Padres playoff fates will rest more on the arms of Tomko and the winless since July, Chris Young then Jake Peavy. Peavy only has one scheduled start left on Wed. night.

    The Padres will start, Young, Tomko and Peavy in San Francisco and then close out in Milwaukee with Cassell, Maddux, Young and hope that the last game doesn't mean anything.

    2007-09-23 14:26:48
    252.   bhsportsguy
    249 Kobe made a similar comment about the makeup of his team and then got blasted about his leadership qualities.

    It doesn't pay to speak your mind these days.

    2007-09-23 14:27:32
    253.   Bob Timmermann
    Tomorrow night for the Padres should match Tall Chris Young and Overpaid Barry Zito.
    2007-09-23 14:28:08
    254.   Dodgers49
    100. there must be something in his contract that says he starts every game...isn't he closing in on the consecutive game record?

    Pierre isn't even "closing in" on Billy Williams National League" record. I have no idea why Grady won't sit him down once in a while.

    2007-09-23 14:28:39
    255.   Bob Timmermann
    Tuesday it should be Tomko vs Cain and Wednesday it will be Peavy vs Pat Misch.

    The Padres better win Wednesday.

    2007-09-23 14:30:02
    256.   Felton
    Will Carroll when Ned and Grady were hired - "wrong men in the wrong place at the wrong time". Read BP 2007 yearbook - PECOTA was right on the money in many, many instances where a younger player was projected to be better than the older player. Tell Kent the kids will play and if he does not like it, maybe he can go to a better situation for him.
    2007-09-23 14:30:20
    257.   Bob Timmermann
    254
    Steve Garvey will be sending you a letter to remind you who holds the NL record for consecutive games played.
    2007-09-23 14:31:33
    258.   JoeyP
    Pecota's 82 win projection looks really good right now. Even the Dodgers run differential this year matches up with exactly where they should be record wise.
    2007-09-23 14:32:54
    259.   Dodgers49
    127. Kent also wasn't too happy when, during a pitching change a couple of days ago, Loney went over to socialize with Chris Young who was on 2nd base at the time...

    Loney and Young have been friends since their high school days in Houston. Jeff Kent is really "old school." :-)

    2007-09-23 14:33:28
    260.   nick
    please tell me Kemp was running hard down the line...
    2007-09-23 14:35:04
    261.   Dodgers49
    257. Can you believe a Dodgers fan would forget about Garvey? My bad.
    2007-09-23 14:38:55
    262.   Bob Timmermann
    260
    Umm....
    2007-09-23 14:39:00
    263.   Jon Weisman
    260 - I had the same question, but I don't know. Reynolds did get rid of the ball very quickly.
    2007-09-23 14:40:05
    264.   Dodgers49
    131. 125 If that event happened, it wasn't reported in the L.A. Times.

    That story has the strong whiff of apocrypha.

    As hard as this may be to believe, it happened. I was listening to that game and remember Vin calling it. But my memory cannot be trusted. :-) Because,

    1). I remember it happening during the middle of the game, and
    2). I've been thinking it almost hit Maury Wills

    2007-09-23 14:40:24
    265.   Jon Weisman
    Angels are six outs away from clinching.

    Rockies continue their charge in S.D.

    2007-09-23 14:41:27
    266.   Bob Timmermann
    264
    There appears to be more evidence of it, but when Eric Enders corrected Wikipedia, he said it happened on OCTOBER 4, 1971, when the season was over.

    I still want to know who drops a sack of flour out of an airplane.

    2007-09-23 14:42:22
    267.   Jon Weisman
    266 - Anyone think "flour" is a euphemism?
    2007-09-23 14:45:46
    268.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
    267 - Euphemism for "a fine powder made from cereals or other starchy food sources," sure. ;)
    2007-09-23 14:45:56
    269.   nick
    267 you think it was coke!?
    2007-09-23 14:46:01
    270.   Dodgers49
    264. I should also add that they showed the sack of flour exploding on the 11:00 O'clock news that night so I remember actually seeing it. Unfortunately, that happened before the days of "SportsCenter." :-)
    2007-09-23 14:48:54
    271.   Andrew Shimmin
    Loney's lucky Snyder couldn't handle the short hop.
    2007-09-23 14:49:05
    272.   Bob Timmermann
    Does Byrnes really get anything extra on his throws by falling over?
    2007-09-23 14:50:17
    273.   Dodgers49
    267. 266 - Anyone think "flour" is a euphemism?

    As I recall, the feeling at the time was that the sack may have been dropped deliberately as some kind of joke. But somebody could have been killed had it actually landed on a players head.

    2007-09-23 14:50:17
    274.   Dodgers49
    267. 266 - Anyone think "flour" is a euphemism?

    As I recall, the feeling at the time was that the sack may have been dropped deliberately as some kind of joke. But somebody could have been killed had it actually landed on a players head.

    2007-09-23 14:50:27
    275.   Andrew Shimmin
    272- He gets extra adoration from me.
    2007-09-23 14:51:20
    276.   silverwidow
    Nice clutch hit by Andy.
    2007-09-23 14:52:02
    277.   bhsportsguy
    Without the teacher, the flat buns commercial is jus flat.
    2007-09-23 14:54:42
    278.   Linkmeister
    There were some documented stories about Washington Senators catchers attempting to catch balls dropped from the top of the Washington Monument (in the 30s, maybe?).
    2007-09-23 14:57:15
    279.   Bob Timmermann
    278
    It was actually earlier than the 1930s. Gabby Street did it and he played in the Deadball Era.

    Some guys who tried it ended up with hand injuries.

    2007-09-23 14:57:52
    280.   Jon Weisman
    The Angels' celebration keeps getting delayed by their offense scoring.
    2007-09-23 14:57:56
    281.   trainwreck
    277
    Yeah, that is all they used to show. So I never got to see this hot teacher you guys kept talking about.
    2007-09-23 15:01:30
    282.   Marty
    No matter how they try to hide it, that teacher does not have what they advertise.
    2007-09-23 15:04:21
    283.   Bluebleeder87
    277

    there's some hotness in the back ground bro, watch, check it out next time.

    2007-09-23 15:05:31
    284.   Bob Timmermann
    The Angels got a gift run because it looks like Izturis did not touch home before Kendrick made the last out at third.
    2007-09-23 15:08:59
    285.   bhsportsguy
    281 During last night's broadcast, Coach Howland was talking abot Kevin Love's outlet passing to Darren Collison, just hearing him talk, makes you look forward to basketball season.
    2007-09-23 15:09:17
    286.   MollyKnight
    Perfect Hu at-bat song for next year?

    "Who Are You?" By the Who.

    2007-09-23 15:10:10
    287.   Marty
    285 But...it's football season. And it's off to a great start if you ask me :)
    2007-09-23 15:11:35
    288.   jujibee
    Did Kent's option vest yet???
    2007-09-23 15:11:55
    289.   Marty
    Abreau is hacktastic.
    2007-09-23 15:11:59
    290.   Bob Timmermann
    287
    Marty has already spent $1000 on O.J. Mayo gear.
    2007-09-23 15:13:38
    291.   Bob Timmermann
    287
    bhsportsguy and I agreed that USC will score over 50 points at Washington next week and likely rush for over 500 yards.
    2007-09-23 15:15:29
    292.   Bluebleeder87
    Abreu swings at anything with in radar distance, so to me he's, Radartastic!
    2007-09-23 15:18:04
    293.   Marty
    I still can't believe there's another O.J. at USC.
    2007-09-23 15:18:58
    294.   bhsportsguy
    291 I say let everyone whoever played running back get a chance to run the ball next week against Washington.
    2007-09-23 15:19:19
    295.   Bob Timmermann
    New York magazine reports that Boras is interested in moving Alex Rodriguez to Chicago once its new ownership is in place:

    http://tinyurl.com/2py97z

    Cubs, not White Sox.

    2007-09-23 15:20:02
    296.   natepurcell
    Loney Bomb!
    2007-09-23 15:20:05
    297.   bhsportsguy
    293 The Vegas incident could not come at a worst time.
    2007-09-23 15:20:29
    298.   fordprefect
    Take that, Simers!
    2007-09-23 15:20:32
    299.   Bluebleeder87
    Crazy eyes delivers yet again, he knew it was gonna go out too if it stayed fair, good job.
    2007-09-23 15:20:37
    300.   trainwreck
    Loney Bomb!!!
    Show/Hide Comments 301-350
    2007-09-23 15:20:49
    301.   nick
    credit that HR to Pierre's veteran baserunning skills!--knowing just when and how to distract the pitcher...
    2007-09-23 15:21:14
    302.   Marty
    295 I'm going to be glad to not own the Cubs anymore. I think I'm still paying Sosa's salary.
    2007-09-23 15:21:48
    303.   oswald
    loney really should drop that attitude of knowing what he's doing.
    2007-09-23 15:22:57
    304.   Jon Weisman
    Two straight wild pitches by Justin Speier cuts the Angels' lead to 7-4.
    2007-09-23 15:22:59
    305.   MollyKnight
    295- "We'll let you own the team if you play for us for the next five years"
    2007-09-23 15:23:23
    306.   Jon Weisman
    But he gets out of the inning. Three outs to go.
    2007-09-23 15:23:49
    307.   fordprefect
    Speier just wild-pitched two Seattle runners in, (ouch!) 7-4 LAA.
    2007-09-23 15:23:59
    308.   Izzy
    "Too much veteran riff raff" may be a hindrance to signing Arod next year, but we lose some of that at the end of the season. And most of the rest drops off the following year. Signing him has to be done with a bigger picture than our payroll for that one year. Course, that might be a problem too.
    2007-09-23 15:24:42
    309.   trainwreck
    Aramis Ramirez cannot be too happy about that.
    2007-09-23 15:25:16
    310.   fordprefect
    305 306
    Old & slow here.
    2007-09-23 15:25:22
    311.   Jon Weisman
    Tony Abreu made a play worthy of Alex Cora!
    2007-09-23 15:26:25
    312.   Andrew Shimmin
    I wish the Dodgers could trade the McCourts for A-Rod.
    2007-09-23 15:27:47
    313.   Gen3Blue
    Just got in in time to see the Abreu play--wow.
    2007-09-23 15:28:21
    314.   Bluebleeder87
    man, Billingsley looks awesome as always, take that Simers!!
    2007-09-23 15:29:51
    315.   Benaiah
    This game is going just about perfectly to plan. The long losing streak, Kent's comments, the misery of another year of mediocrity and then Grady finally plays the kids and good things happen. I am loving the high comedy of writers finally deciding that the problem this year was the kids!

    Jason Schmidt, Randy Wolf, Rafael Furcal, Juan Pierre, Nomar Garciapara, Brett Tomko, Mark Hendrickson... (entirely acquired by Colletti)

    Chad Billingsley, Russell Martin, Matt Kemp, James Loney, Jonathan Broxton... (acquired primarily by Logan White)

    Penny, Lowe (acquired by Depodesta)

    I am leaving out Kent, Ethier and Saito which were nice accomplishments of the Ned administration, but the Simers/Plaschke analysis is still just hilarious.

    2007-09-23 15:29:54
    316.   oswald
    i love watching the kids play!
    2007-09-23 15:30:21
    317.   bluedog
    Our ace Chad Billingsley.
    2007-09-23 15:31:33
    318.   Dodgers49
    309. Aramis Ramirez cannot be too happy about that.

    But why? If A-Rod goes to the Cubs he'll play shortstop.

    2007-09-23 15:31:56
    319.   Jon Weisman
    Risking the jinx: Billingsley has allowed 50 earned runs in 145 innings at this moment. With one start remaining this year, he is five scoreless innings from an ERA of 3.00.

    He could also allow one earned run over his next eight innings to get to 3.00.

    2007-09-23 15:33:18
    320.   Sam NYC
    Hey, "oswald," get back to work! Mom and Dad will be royally ticked off if you're late tonight.
    2007-09-23 15:33:25
    321.   Andrew Shimmin
    Anybody watching the Padre game?
    2007-09-23 15:33:27
    322.   fordprefect
    Does Bradley need a specific reason to be furious?
    2007-09-23 15:34:25
    323.   Johnny Nucleo
    Juan Cruz: 1.2 IP, 5 strikeouts.

    And one Loney bomb.

    2007-09-23 15:35:14
    324.   Jon Weisman
    Wow, it's a media dream come true. Bradley injures himself arguing with an ump.
    2007-09-23 15:35:34
    325.   natepurcell
    ummm, so Bud Black injured Milton Bradley?
    2007-09-23 15:36:03
    326.   Jon Weisman
    Two outs to go in Anaheim.
    2007-09-23 15:36:25
    327.   trainwreck
    Milton Bradley...

    Wow.

    2007-09-23 15:36:30
    328.   fordprefect
    Two outs to go in Anaheim.
    2007-09-23 15:36:40
    329.   Jon Weisman
    One out to go in Anaheim. Channel 13 in Los Angeles if you want to see.
    2007-09-23 15:36:49
    330.   Bob Timmermann
    I believe everyone will end up being ejected in San Diego.
    2007-09-23 15:36:57
    331.   Andrew Shimmin
    There's a lesson in this for any who dare speak ill of Eric Byrnes. No good can come of it.
    2007-09-23 15:37:01
    332.   Jon Weisman
    Garret Anderson with the clinching catch.
    2007-09-23 15:37:02
    333.   fordprefect
    326
    I'll just let you post for me, ok?
    2007-09-23 15:37:30
    334.   fordprefect
    one out!
    2007-09-23 15:37:33
    335.   Bluebleeder87
    324

    I didn't think that was humanly possible until I saw the replay of it, absolutely WOW! It's like he's arguing & then he goes down!?!?!?

    2007-09-23 15:38:16
    336.   fordprefect
    334
    D'oh!
    2007-09-23 15:39:01
    337.   dzzrtRatt
    From the video shown by Scully during the Dodger broadcast, it looks like Bud Black had to use so much force to restrain Bradley from killing the umpire that Bradley hurt his knee.

    If the wheels are coming off in San Diego, I couldn't be more delighted. We took our dose of reality in August when it was tolerable. To be Milton Bradleyed out of the race in the last week would be a fine comeuppance.

    2007-09-23 15:39:05
    338.   Blaine
    Bud Black got kicked out and has to go into the locker room and face Milton Bradley. I would love to see that.
    2007-09-23 15:39:09
    339.   Bluebleeder87
    Congrats to the Angel organization, good luck in the playoffs.
    2007-09-23 15:42:46
    340.   Bluebleeder87
    You gotta wonder if Rob was out there today, I'll be rooting for them come October...
    2007-09-23 15:43:32
    341.   CanuckDodger
    319 -- Jon, by any chance do you know how many earned runs Chad has given up just since the All-Star break?
    2007-09-23 15:44:51
    342.   natepurcell
    341

    28ERs so far.

    2007-09-23 15:46:07
    343.   Bob Timmermann
    341
    Counting today, I have 28.
    2007-09-23 15:46:24
    344.   Marty
    I wish I could see the Bradley video. I'm sure it'll be up on Deadspin soon enough.
    2007-09-23 15:46:28
    345.   Andrew Shimmin
    341- 25 ER over 80IP in 13 starts.
    2007-09-23 15:47:29
    346.   Marty
    Why did Abreu come out?
    2007-09-23 15:47:56
    347.   Andrew Shimmin
    Oh, I didn't count today's run. That was dumb. But I don't see where the other two runs come from.
    2007-09-23 15:47:58
    348.   Pedro Astacio
    Wow, that's the funniest thing I've seen this season. If the pads don't make the playoffs this season, it'll be some kind of poetic justice.
    2007-09-23 15:49:52
    349.   Andrew Shimmin
    Ah. There they are. Stupid Bob, always being right about stuff.
    2007-09-23 15:50:15
    350.   MMSMikey
    a nice one from vin

    "a commerical about going to hawaii...and Byrnes is going back to the dugout"

    Show/Hide Comments 351-400
    2007-09-23 15:50:37
    351.   Bob Timmermann
    349
    I was wrong about something today, but I've covered my tracks.
    2007-09-23 15:55:14
    352.   eusmus
    Stephen Drew OPS
    Vs Lefties 664
    Vs Righties 672
    2007-09-23 15:55:19
    353.   Bluebleeder87
    We need some Joe Beimel comebacker magic at the moment.
    2007-09-23 15:56:37
    354.   bigcpa
    Billingsley was pitching too well to allow him to the lose the game right there.
    2007-09-23 15:56:37
    355.   scooplew
    Did anyone happen to notice whether or not Kent congratulated Loney after his home run?
    2007-09-23 15:56:59
    356.   Bluebleeder87
    man, Jared Weaver looks plastered already & the festivities barely started.
    2007-09-23 15:57:24
    357.   MollyKnight
    I think Vinnie has a man crush on Auggie Ojeda.
    2007-09-23 15:57:48
    358.   Bob Timmermann
    MLB.com headline for Angels clinching:

    "Hollywood Ending!"

    Get these guys a Thomas Guide.

    2007-09-23 15:59:23
    359.   Gen3Blue
    Pick-it Wilson.
    2007-09-23 15:59:38
    360.   Bob Timmermann
    357
    If that's so wrong, I don't want to be right!
    2007-09-23 16:00:02
    361.   Benaiah
    What kind of a chance do you think Loney has in the rookie of the year voting? 13 home runs and 60 RBI don't blow you away (and I doubt the voters will take his 900+ OPS into account) but .333 is a really high batting average. Kemp is ineligible by my calculations.
    2007-09-23 16:00:54
    362.   Bluebleeder87
    I have to say though, John Lackey looked like a seasoned Vet in that interview.
    2007-09-23 16:01:17
    363.   Bob Timmermann
    361
    Ryan Braun will win easily and Troy Tulowitzki will be second.
    2007-09-23 16:01:57
    364.   Benaiah
    Bill Murphy, we hardly knew thee.
    2007-09-23 16:02:07
    365.   natepurcell
    361

    none really. Ryan Braun has it locked up I would think.

    2007-09-23 16:03:18
    366.   Bluebleeder87
    361

    yeah, that's when you get frustrated he didn't start up here, oh well.

    2007-09-23 16:04:08
    367.   CeyHey
    In what positions have the Diamondbacks surpassed the Dodgers this year?
    LF
    CF
    3b
    2007-09-23 16:05:58
    368.   Bluebleeder87
    A full season of Loney would give you what? (traditional #"s) 320 24 80,90 RBI it still would have been tuff for him to win it.
    2007-09-23 16:06:57
    369.   Benaiah
    365 - Deservedly so I guess, but I hope big game James makes some noise anyway.
    2007-09-23 16:16:39
    370.   Bob Timmermann
    368
    A full season of Ryan Braun would have been really good.

    It's the Brewers fans chances of thinking of what might have been with this year.
    The Brewers four games at the end of the year with San Diego may only end up meaning something to the Padres.

    2007-09-23 16:22:12
    371.   silverwidow
    Billingsley's career as a starter:

    197 IP, 3.20 ERA

    How do you like that?

    2007-09-23 16:24:11
    372.   StolenMonkey86
    295- so what happens to Boras if he's caught of tampering?
    2007-09-23 16:27:37
    373.   Bob Timmermann
    372
    It's the teams that can't tamper with free agents. I think the agents have more leeway. The putative Cubs owners would be the ones in trouble.
    2007-09-23 16:35:03
    374.   Bluebleeder87
    Vinnie can finally say, "Hu is on 1ST"
    2007-09-23 16:35:24
    375.   Gen3Blue
    Wonderful. though Vin beat me Hu's on first.
    2007-09-23 16:37:51
    376.   Bob Timmermann
    I believe everyone has now taken a nap during this game.

    Drew's throw to first there was "unique."

    2007-09-23 16:37:54
    377.   fordprefect
    Hu scored?
    2007-09-23 16:38:39
    378.   Gen3Blue
    Joy makes me succomb. Who scored. I can't help myself.
    2007-09-23 16:39:03
    379.   eusmus
    It's going to be such a shame when Delwyn gets traded, he hits such nice looking line drives.
    2007-09-23 16:39:40
    380.   StolenMonkey86
    Pierre still gets credit for a hit, so he's now at 189 for the day. 4-4 with a walk so far.
    2007-09-23 16:40:51
    381.   CanuckDodger
    Abreu, Loney, Kemp, Loney, Hu, Martin, Ethier, and Young have all produced at least one hit today. This is a special game, and I wonder how many Dodger fans realize it. And with Billingsley probably getting the win today, the Times' headline tomorrow should be: DODGER KIDS TO VETS: DROP DEAD.
    2007-09-23 16:41:24
    382.   eusmus
    ... what? why hasn't Broxton been shut down?
    2007-09-23 16:42:53
    383.   KG16
    382 - does seem like a strange choice with a 6 run lead.
    2007-09-23 16:43:08
    384.   Jon Weisman
    http://tinyurl.com/yuvbot

    Delwyn Young (.421) on pace for the 17th-best season batting average in Los Angeles Dodger history, minimum 5 at-bats, and top season batting average in Los Angeles Dodger history, minimum 19 at-bats.

    2007-09-23 16:45:11
    385.   Benaiah
    Why is Broxton pitching? Grady is a butcher on par with Dusty Baker... Well, not quite but between Martin and Broxton you have to wonder about his short term first approach to young players' health.
    2007-09-23 16:45:51
    386.   CanuckDodger
    381 -- Rats, typed "Loney" twice and missed LaRoche.
    2007-09-23 16:46:49
    387.   StolenMonkey86
    373 - So, can the Cubs be punished by not being allowed to sign A-Rod, and Boras get off with a wag of the finger?
    2007-09-23 16:48:40
    388.   Gen3Blue
    come on now, Broxtons a big guy. And his problem was pitching so many games in the span of a month or so. He's had plenty of rest and needs to get his confidence back.
    2007-09-23 16:50:16
    389.   StolenMonkey86
    come on now, Broxtons a big guy.

    So Grady thinks exercise will help? :)

    Or is it so Broxton can reach 100 strikeouts on the year? That's what I'm guessing. He just punched out numbers 95 and 96.

    2007-09-23 16:51:24
    390.   Bob Timmermann
    387
    Agents are sanctioned by the Players Association. Teams are sanctioned by the Commissioner.

    It wouldn't do much for labor relations if management could go and slap sanctions on the representatives of the players.

    2007-09-23 16:51:32
    391.   paranoidandroid
    Any way to search our previous posts? I think about a month ago I posted something along the lines of "How long until Milton Bradley explodes and causes a riff in SD?"

    I think I put "by mid-September." as a response to my own question.

    Just wondering if I could find it in the archives somehow if I can't remember the date it was posted.

    Anyway, the Pads can find themselves out of this thing with that type of behavior and the hot Phillies and Rockies teams behind them.

    2007-09-23 16:54:24
    392.   Bob Timmermann
    The Padres are still playing the Giants three times. And Jake Peavy will face Pat Misch in one of them.

    And the Brewers at the end of the year could well be done.

    2007-09-23 16:55:36
    393.   paranoidandroid
    384 I would really like to see him get a shot at a month in the starting line-up somewhere in the bigs.

    As you know, I'm a big fan. I just don't see a way for him to break into our line-up unless there are injuries. If he's out of options, I don't see him being our fourth outfielder but I sure hope he gets a chance to win that job in Vero.

    2007-09-23 16:58:01
    394.   StolenMonkey86
    390 - yeah. I'm reminded of that dream sequence in office space with Boras playing the role of Peter, when the judge tells him he's a very bad person. Can Selig do that?
    2007-09-23 16:58:56
    395.   KG16
    6 run save? Wow.
    2007-09-23 17:00:27
    396.   StolenMonkey86
    he needs some PT, I guess
    2007-09-23 17:01:01
    397.   paranoidandroid
    395 Off day tomorrow. What would you save his arm for now? He's our best guy in the pen. Makes sense to me.
    2007-09-23 17:04:38
    398.   KG16
    I'd have preferred to give some of the called up pitchers some time in the 8th and 9th. Bring in Brox and Saito if it gets close.
    2007-09-23 17:06:04
    399.   trainwreck
    Hopefully, we will see a lot of games like this in the future.
    2007-09-23 17:08:05
    400.   bcg60
    Pretty nice game by the "Rugrats." Take that Simers. Never have liked him, mean spirited and not a very talented journalist in my opinion.
    Show/Hide Comments 401-450
    2007-09-23 17:08:47
    401.   Bob Timmermann
    We win! I can take a nap!
    2007-09-23 17:09:21
    402.   Bluebleeder87
    Watching Bills pitch is a treat in it's self, it's gonna be fun next year but I hope upper management does there part to get us over the hump, SIGN A-ROD NED!!!
    2007-09-23 17:11:02
    403.   Pedro Astacio
    Why can't we talk about something funny? Like Milton Bradley.
    2007-09-23 17:11:33
    404.   Jon Weisman
    Gurnick: It's finally been decided that maybe Furcal should have an MRI on his ankle. Not to rush into it or anything.

    http://tinyurl.com/yt6fya

    2007-09-23 17:13:36
    405.   trainwreck
    404
    This is why we got Stan Conte.
    2007-09-23 17:13:46
    406.   Izzy
    Great... The Cubs may offer Arod part ownership in the team.

    I have to see that clip of Bradley. When someone finds it, make sure and post it here.

    2007-09-23 17:14:35
    407.   Gen3Blue
    Who ended this game?
    2007-09-23 17:16:53
    408.   Pedro Astacio
    MLB.TV replays are free now, but you got to seek onto the bottom of the 8th. Bud Black took down Bradley and Bradley started clutching his right knee.

    PS: Earlier in the game, Milton stepped on Mike Cameron's hand when trying to pick up the ball that Cameron missed. Not a good day for the Pads.

    2007-09-23 17:17:34
    409.   Bluebleeder87
    Saito finished it, 406 I saw the replay of that & it looked pretty bad, cause he twisted his ankle pretty bad.
    2007-09-23 17:17:56
    410.   Eric Enders
    This may have been my favorite Dodger game of the year. We finally start the 2009 Opening Day lineup, and we win in blowout fashion with everyone except Billingsley getting at least one hit, plus some spectacular infield defense. Broxton and Saito close it out, and D. Young gets a solid pinch hit for good measure.

    Why do I have a queasy feeling that all of the beat writers and columnists will either miss the lesson of today's game, or willfully ignore it?

    2007-09-23 17:18:37
    411.   berkowit28
    I hope (vain hope) they play the same starting lineup again. Then, do you suppose it's worth losing, or risking a game against SF, to field this team?

    Pierre CF
    Furcal SS
    Saenz 1B
    Kent 2B
    Garciaparra 3B
    Gonzalez LF
    Sweeney* RF
    Lieberthal C
    Loaiza SP

    Saenez RP
    Proctor RP
    Hernandez RP
    Saito** RP

    (*I was stumped to come up with an oldie outfielder; Sweeney played OF several years for the Cardinals and Padres.

    Fair's fair: should they be winning at the end, ahem, they get the sophomore 37-year-old closer.)

    Let's see how they'd do. Well, it's not right to lose a game on purpose, but I bet there's at least one game with Kent, Gonzo and Nomar, who might go all out and do OK - with some help from the remaining youngsters like Loney and Kemp or Ethier.

    2007-09-23 17:18:56
    412.   Bluebleeder87
    ankle should = Knee.
    2007-09-23 17:20:43
    413.   Linkmeister
    NOW Furcal gets an MRI?

    Speechless, I am.

    Well, no I'm not. For cryin' out loud, it's not like Hu or anyone else was gonna take his job if he'd gone on the DL to recover from the bad ankle, unlike some other vets.

    Sheesh. Macho doesn't cover it.

    2007-09-23 17:21:41
    414.   scooplew
    First Dodger win since UCLA was undefeated...
    2007-09-23 17:22:49
    415.   Gen3Blue
    I feel like Delbert in "O brother, where art thou"

    I have seen the future, and it is fine!

    2007-09-23 17:23:32
    416.   CanuckDodger
    410 -- Eric, my prediction: what our young guys did today is down-played by knocking the Diamondbacks' pitchers. We weren't facing Brandon Webb today, so it doesn't count.:)
    2007-09-23 17:31:16
    417.   Eric Enders
    Little wouldn't necessarily field such a youthful lineup for the remainder of the season "out of respect for the game."
    -- Dylan Hernandez

    That sound you just heard is me banging my head against the wall.

    2007-09-23 17:35:08
    418.   trainwreck
    Not like the youthful lineup is bad, so I do not see how he is not respecting the game.
    2007-09-23 17:42:25
    419.   Izzy
    417.
    Wait. I think I heard that.

    418.
    If I am taking a guess Little thinks he is honoring guys like Gonzalez because of the memories they have created etc. etc.. He is playing them based on "what they have done for us." I can live with it. It'll change soon enough.

    2007-09-23 17:48:37
    420.   Linkmeister
    419 That would make sense except that the veteran with the longest tenure on the team is Olmedo Saenz. Gonzo is in his first and probably last year with the Dodgers. Kent's in his what, second?

    Sorry, Izzy, your explanation doesn't compute.

    2007-09-23 17:50:09
    421.   Eric Enders
    What Gonzalez has done for us:

    1) Crush us while playing for another team
    2) Go through the motions as a Dodger while making it clear he'd rather be in Arizona
    3) Put up below average offense for a left fielder
    4) Put up far below average defense for a left fielder
    5) Complain about his playing time
    6) Help polarize the clubhouse

    Those are the memories he's created.

    2007-09-23 18:06:21
    422.   Bob Timmermann
    420
    Kent is finishing his third season with the Dodgers.
    2007-09-23 18:13:27
    423.   Dodgers49
    Boras denies report of talks with potential Cubs owner on A-Rod

    >> Agent Scott Boras says he hasn't had talks with any of the possible bidders for the Chicago Cubs about Alex Rodriguez, denying a report on New York Magazine's Web site. <<

    ## "Great players with great demand create great rumors," Boras said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press. "While I would enjoy having lunch with Mark Cuban and Canning, at this point of the year that conversation would not include Alex Rodriguez. I have not talked to anyone."

    Boras also pointed out that it would violate major league rules for a player to have equity or potential equity in a franchise. ##

    http://tinyurl.com/2g7rkm

    2007-09-23 18:13:34
    424.   Sam DC
    FWIW, whoever was hosting the XM mlb roundup show this afternoon was commenting how the Dodgers how feel off the cliff about a week ago, and the clubhouse had volcanoed. Then he wondered if Grady Little's job was at risk for this and then he said it should be.

    In other news, we brought home two hamsters today. Believe me, I resisted this for as long as humanly possible. They're cute. During the day. Their names are Morro and Pismo.

    Why kids suck: I must have warned my kid 50 times that hamsters make noise at night. He must have sworn up and down 50 times that he understood and it was OK and he would not complain. So 20 minutes into his bedtime, they start gnawing the cage or Choi knows what. "Daddy. These hamsters are driving me crazy. I can't sleep. Make them stop."

    2007-09-23 18:17:43
    425.   Robert Fiore
    The youth movement controversy points out how perceptions have been changed by the free agent era, namely that it's created the illusion that any team can have a lineup of front line veterans if it's willing to pay the necessary salaries and trade the necessary prospects. The most destructive idea that comes out of this is that big-time teams don't rebuild, and only losers like the Kansas City Royals play kids. Consider for contrast the 1973 Dodgers, who started Bill Buckner, Steve Garvey and Bill Russell in their third full seasons (by "full season" here I mean seasons in which the player spent no time in the minors), and Ron Cey, Davey Lopes, and the Joe Ferguson/Steve Yeager platoon in their first full seasons. Also in first full seasons were Charlie Hough, Doug Rau, Tom Paciorek (played in 96 games) Lee Lacy (48). The graybeards were Willie Crawford in his sixth year (himself a leftover from an earlier youth movement that included Bill Grabarkewitz, Bill Sudakis and Jim Lefebvre) and Jimmy Wynn, the only proven star. The pitching staff were veterans, but the 2007 pitchers are veterans too; the difference is that the 1973 veterans were all good. Of course, back then the Times didn't criticize the team under any circumstances, but I don't think anybody called this a disgrace; rebuilding was something that teams did, regardless of status. We all know how it worked out in the long run.

    Creating a situation in which Kent is signed through 2008 because he had a good year in 2005 is like continuing to play a slot machine after you hit the jackpot on your first pull. The machine is designed so you lose over time.

    2007-09-23 18:22:40
    426.   Bob Timmermann
    how the Dodgers how feel off the cliff about a week ago, and the clubhouse had volcanoed.

    That's an interesting geological formation in the Dodgers.

    2007-09-23 18:24:32
    427.   Bob Timmermann
    425
    I think you mean 1974 there. Wynn wasn't on the Dodgers in 1973.
    2007-09-23 18:28:54
    428.   Dodgers49
    In Theory, Diamondbacks Are Winning Way Too Often

    >> Mention the Pythagorean Theorem to a baseball statistician, and he will probably not even recall the grade-school equation relating the lengths of the sides of a right triangle. Instead, he'll think of the formula derived by Bill James, the father of objective baseball analysis, which predicts a team's record based on its runs scored and allowed.

    James christened the discovery the Pythagorean Theorem because of its similarity to Pythagoras's equation, and it is nearly as accurate: Since 1901, 95 percent of major league teams have finished with a record within eight games of the formula's projection. <<

    ## But this season, that consensus is facing one of its stiffest tests, thanks to the Diamondbacks, who going into Friday's games were 86-67 despite having given up 21 more runs than they had scored. According to the Pythagorean equation, a team with the Diamondbacks' 671 runs scored and 692 runs allowed should win 48.6 percent of its games, while Arizona has won 56.2 percent. The 8 percent gap, representing more than 12 wins in a 162-game season, is the largest outperformance of a Pythagorean projection since 1905. Only one in 689 teams would manage to defy Pythagoras to this extent by pure luck. ##

    http://tinyurl.com/2avmef

    2007-09-23 18:32:21
    429.   Robert Fiore
    And of course by "Jim Lefebvre" I meant "Ted Sizemore."
    2007-09-23 18:33:11
    430.   KG16
    425 - I'm not sure it's an illusion that "any team can have a lineup of front line veterans if it's willing to pay..." Clearly, there are a few teams that have tried this (I'm thinking mainly Florida, twice; and maybe Seattle). But if you look around the bigs, the team tier teams (meaning the teams that you can ink for a playoff spot in April, i.e. the Yankees and Red Sox) have found a balance between developing from within and getting top line veterans through free agency and trade.

    There is nothing wrong with a full blown youth movement, but like any other strategy in professional sports, it is one that requires a great deal of PR work. The problem we've seen with the Dodgers recently has been a failure of the front office. It's not that they've signed one bridge contract too far, it's that they have failed to truly market the young talent (Martin being the lone exception). LA fans are not as fickle as the ESPN types think - they are smart fans with a knowledge of sports history in this town. They will accept rebuilding and a youth movement if it's done right. The problem is, the Dodgers (much like the Lakers the last couple of years) have not been doing it very well. LA fans will not tolerate mediocrity (unless you're the Clippers).

    2007-09-23 18:35:10
    431.   Robert Fiore
    Timmerman is right about Wynn (I misread the old media guide I was looking at), but the year I'm talking about is 1973.
    2007-09-23 18:35:30
    432.   KG16
    430 - top tier teams, not "team tier teams"
    2007-09-23 18:37:49
    433.   trainwreck
    430
    Calling the Clippers mediocre is quite a stretch.
    2007-09-23 18:39:52
    434.   KG16
    433 - traditionally, they've been mediocre, now, they're decent.
    2007-09-23 18:43:40
    435.   Robert Fiore
    If LA fans won't tolerate mediocrity then what have they been doing for the last 15 years? In "The Hidden Game of Baseball" Pete Palmer and John Thorn demonstrated that Los Angeles attendance was least affected by won/loss record of any franchise. That goes back to 1984, but I don't think things have changed much. The idea that L.A. fans aren't loyal is one of the great unfounded myths, but as Bill James pointed out, people are not going to stop saying things just because they aren't true.
    2007-09-23 18:51:58
    436.   KG16
    435 - a few words as to why fans have been going back to Dodger Stadium the last 15 years:

    1. Strawberry
    2. Piazza
    3. Ramon Martinez 1
    4. Gagnè
    5. Nomo
    6. Five consecutive ROTY

    I would also add that given the sheer size of the market, it is quite possible that the numbers can stay high while turnover also remains high (meaning fewer renewals of season tickets, different people walking up, etc).

    I'm not saying that LA fans aren't loyal. But the fact is, there are enough other things to do in this area, that you have to constantly be on top of the PR.

    2007-09-23 18:52:04
    437.   Robert Fiore
    Since no team or nearly no team can pay full price for every position a modern championship team is built on a foundation of players at the pre-free agent stage. The Yankee team that won three out of four World Series recently was primarily system built. Since then they've tried to stay in championship form by the checkbook, but it hasn't worked as well.
    2007-09-23 18:54:40
    438.   Robert Fiore
    436 -- You've got one free agent acquisition, one player brought over from Japan, and eight system-produced players. Thank you for proving my point.
    2007-09-23 18:59:06
    439.   Sam DC
    I'm concerned that my hamster situation hasn't sparked more discussion.

    Here's another issue I'm working through. We have two hamsters, Morro and Pismo. Problem is, unless you've got special training, they look exactly alike.

    So, is it gonna get me in trouble with PETA if I dab some nail polish or something on one of their backs?

    2007-09-23 19:00:20
    440.   Jon Weisman
    Did you guys see that Abreu is day to day with a hip flexor irritation?
    2007-09-23 19:01:13
    441.   KG16
    438 - how did I prove your point? Your point was that LA fans were loyal, at least that's what I think your point was. I simply pointed out that there were several reasons that fans would return to Dodger Stadium, namely that the team has continually made efforts to put a good product on the field. They don't always win, but with few exceptions, they have been competitive.

    I also pointed to another reason why the numbers would be less affected than other markets - the sheer size of the market.

    Again, my basic point is that the Dodgers, since the O'Malleys sold have been horrible at PR.

    2007-09-23 19:02:21
    442.   KG16
    439 - I would go with nontoxic paint, maybe a nice blue, kind of like those wings that they sell at the stadium.
    2007-09-23 19:04:45
    443.   underdog
    440 Yep. Was that the same thing he'd injured a couple of months ago? Hope no one accuses him of loafing! Or that he gets tagged as injury prone. We need he and LaRoche to prove themselves healthy and give this team more options next year.
    2007-09-23 19:04:49
    444.   Sam DC
    The Nationals hazing outfits -- worn for today's train ride to NYC -- seem pretty harsh.

    Joel Hanrahan really rode to NYC in a diaper? I guess it depends on accoutrements, but that's a far cry from a dress.

    http://tinyurl.com/2v96sz

    2007-09-23 19:05:04
    445.   surfing slug
    440

    The last I saw, he was running from 1st to 3rd.

    :)

    2007-09-23 19:05:10
    446.   trainwreck
    439
    Put shoes on one of them.
    2007-09-23 19:16:25
    447.   underdog
    439 Did your hamsters go to school at Cal Poly SLO or somethin?

    446 Congrats to your Raiders. I figured they'd win today but I guess you never know. My Broncos played like crap and deserved the wake up call they finally got. Next week at Indy should be fun unless their rushing D wakes up.

    My fantasy QB threw for almost 450 yards and his team still lost by a ton.

    2007-09-23 19:21:47
    448.   Robert Fiore
    441 -- Another thing the "Hidden Game of Baseball" study showed was that the market most affected by Won/Lost record is New York City. Pretty big market, I'd say.

    So what you're saying is that the L.A. market is so big, when a million people stop going because the team is mediocre, another million show up to see why the lights are on?

    What I object to is the notion that the team should take action to its long-term detriment in order to protect against a phenomenon that doesn't exist.

    2007-09-23 19:22:44
    449.   trainwreck
    447
    Thank you. Funny how we win in the same exact way we lost last week.
    2007-09-23 19:23:13
    450.   Izzy
    Sheesh. I meant "us" as baseball fans, not Dodger fans. I kind of figured you would get the world series memory thang, but I guess people are on the train and nobody is slowing it dowm.
    Show/Hide Comments 451-500
    2007-09-23 19:24:02
    451.   Izzy
    That is to 420 above.
    2007-09-23 19:27:52
    452.   Dodgers49
    440. We saw it. But the question is, did Ned see it? :-)
    2007-09-23 19:31:00
    453.   KG16
    448 - ok, I'm sorry, we seem to be talking past each other at the moment.

    First, in re New York - New York fans are the most over rated fans in the country, or perhaps second most over rated, next to St. Louis.

    Second, basically, yes, different fans show up. I've had years where I haven't gone to a game (like this year), and years where I went to 10-15 (a couple years ago, including 4 in a week).

    I never said that the team should "take action to its long-term detriment", I'm pretty sure I've never even joked about such an approach. PR is important in pro sports, almost as much as winning. I don't see how marketing players that they expect to have here for more than a year is in the team's "long-term detriment". If anything, it will sell more hats, jerseys, and other merchandise.

    As an example, look at the Angels. Six years ago, you could walk up on any night of the season and buy field level seats. Then they won a championship and there was a waiting list for season tickets. Then there was a near revolt over the LA Angels of Anaheim thing - it was spun, the team kept winning, and the stadium is pretty much packed every night.

    2007-09-23 19:36:48
    454.   natepurcell
    Marion Barber is tough.
    2007-09-23 19:41:13
    455.   Andrew Shimmin
    Strawberry?
    2007-09-23 19:50:48
    456.   Gen3Blue
    Sam. No.424 makes me think you are being played, as I was many times as a father.
    As for Morro and Pismo, do you know their sexes?
    2007-09-23 19:55:43
    457.   Paul Scott
    "Only one in 689 teams would manage to defy Pythagoras to this extent by pure luck."

    The guy is talking about this being the most anyone has outdone pythag in 102 years. Then he uses the word "only" in that statement above. Unless I am misunderstanding that quote or unless the math in that quote is wrong (I did not check it nor did I even bother to figure out on what grounds the stated probability is based), it seems vary obvious to me that we are simply "overdue" for such a result. There have been a hell of a lot more than 689 team seasons since 1905.

    2007-09-23 19:57:18
    458.   Sam DC
    456 Well, when I was asked, I said they were girls, even though I forgot to find out at the store, and I was believed.

    Who's getting played now? :)

    2007-09-23 19:58:08
    459.   Sam DC
    Sir Albert up in a big spot (at least for purposes of this particular game in SL). Tow on, no outs, down by two, bottom ninth.
    2007-09-23 19:58:44
    460.   Bob Timmermann
    459
    The baseball says "OUCH!"
    2007-09-23 20:01:04
    461.   Sam DC
    Albert takes Lidge to the wall -- runners at the corners, still no outs.
    2007-09-23 20:04:19
    462.   Bob Timmermann
    And Rick Ankiel goes back to being a hero for one day.
    2007-09-23 20:08:24
    463.   Dodgers49
    This article is a week old but it appears Ned isn't the only one who believes in chemistry. :-)

    Good team chemistry makes big difference

    >> Said Bell: "Every team has a jerk on it. Well, we don't have one jerk. Guys on other teams ask me about it, but it's true." <<

    ## But does chemistry influence the outcome of games?

    "It's very important," Maddux said. "How do you measure it? There's not a stat for chemistry. You don't say that a guy's a .250 hitter but he's hitting .300 because of chemistry. It makes the season more fun. There's a lot to be said over 162 games for chemistry." ##

    http://tinyurl.com/2jhu4m

    2007-09-23 20:16:52
    464.   Dodgers49
    457. There have been a hell of a lot more than 689 team seasons since 1905.

    But he said "Only one in 689" so I don't see a problem there. Wouldn't "a hell of a lot more than 689 team seasons since 1905" include multiples of 689?

    2007-09-23 20:18:37
    465.   Slikk
    Here's the Bradley video. Just thank our Dodger stars he's not here.

    Have your kids watch this and learn something.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070923&content_id=2225825&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=sd

    2007-09-23 20:21:43
    466.   Sam DC
    So, do all the half games go away tomorrow?
    2007-09-23 20:22:11
    467.   Paul Scott
    If 1 in 689 teams should exceed Pythag expectations by 12 games, then we should have expected more than 1 team to have done so in the last 102 years, since there would be more than 2000 such team seasons in that period. So the use of the word "only" there (in an article suggesting that the Diamondbacks 2007 season is some sort of challenge to the validity of pythag) is rather misleading.
    2007-09-23 20:24:27
    468.   Paul Scott
    "Just thank our Dodger stars he's not here."

    Yeah, instead we have Pierre. Lucky us.

    2007-09-23 20:28:36
    469.   Bob Timmermann
    466
    No, Cleveland is off tomorrow and plays a doubleheader Wednesday in Seattle.
    2007-09-23 20:31:11
    470.   Slikk
    Wow, you'd really take Bradley before Pierre? Some folks just won't learn ...
    2007-09-23 20:38:51
    471.   Gen3Blue
    Anyone fairly computer literate, including my kids, would probably have howled watching me get to 465's Bradley video. But I got there, and I had to reflect on how nothing happened in time to help the D's, but probably in time to sink SD's playoff hopes.
    2007-09-23 20:47:46
    472.   LAT
    Wow reading about the Bradley explination at the Pods site sounds like an epithet (sp?) might have been thrown by the umpire. The first base coach is really going after the umpire. Someone better get on the batphone to Bud.
    2007-09-23 20:53:17
    473.   Dodgers49
    467. What he actually said was:

    1). (Arizona's) 8 percent gap, representing more than 12 wins in a 162-game season, is the largest outperformance of a Pythagorean projection since 1905.

    2). Only one in 689 teams would manage to defy Pythagoras to this extent by pure luck.

    So it seems to me that the "one in 689" only applies to "by pure luck." And he goes on to indicate he thinks more than luck is involved in Arizona's case.

    2007-09-23 20:59:39
    474.   Slikk
    "That guy, Mike Winters, no reason for it. You don't ride people. He kept talking to me, he wouldn't stop. Meach was standing right there. It's terrible, and now because of him my knee's hurt. If he costs me my season because of that he needs to be reprimanded. I'm going to take some action."

    Yup, it's always their fault buddy ...

    2007-09-23 21:01:07
    475.   Paul Scott
    470 Umm. Yeah. Of course. I'd think that would be quite obvious.

    Pierre is barely, barely above replacement level, both offensively and defensively. He also cost's a fortune.

    Bradley is well above replacement level and because of his issues (both personality and health) he is cheap. So Bradley played 61 games this year (combined at SD and Oak). If you are asking me if I'd rather have 61 games of Bradley + 101 games of replacement level (which, in the case of the Dodgers is not right, since our actual "replacement" is not only above replacement level by a good margin but is (obviously) also better than Pierre), then the obvious answer is yes.

    In fact, even if all we got was replacement level play when Bradley was not playing and even if Bradley played 0 games, he would still be a better deal than Pierre.

    So, yeah, your question is easily answered in the affirmative. I cannot even guess what tortured logic would be required to say otherwise.

    2007-09-23 21:03:47
    476.   Paul Scott
    467 Yes. I am sure he does. Probably pixie dust or character or grit or [pick your "intangible"]. Which is (in part) no doubt why he chose the misleading language in the first place.
    2007-09-23 21:05:25
    477.   Daniel Zappala
    Did anyone else notice that MLB is using a video player based on Microsoft's Silverlight technology? Can you use this if you are on an Apple system, because I sure can't on my Linux machine. I love how MLB is so clueless that they use technologies that turn people away from their web site, rather than trying to gather as broad a customer base as possible.
    2007-09-23 21:06:23
    478.   underdog
    There's no question that Milton Bradley has more tools than Pierre. On sheer talent alone it's clear which player is superior. But Bradley is constantly an injury risk and constantly losing it emotionally. Today both things happened and it could cost the Padres in the playoffs (if they get there). I don't think he's even a good teammate. Frankly, I'd rather have neither guy on my team, whether for 61 or 101 games, but I'm not sure Bradley is such a great deal even if his contract is a lot cheaper than Pierre's because you can't count on Bradley - except for him to implode right when your team's counting on him. Anyway, not the greatest choice in the world to have to make. ;-)
    2007-09-23 21:07:36
    479.   Gagne55
    475 I think it has something to do with throwing baseballs on the field, beer bottles at fans, accusing teamates of being racist and reporters of being Uncle Toms.
    2007-09-23 21:08:02
    480.   Bob Timmermann
    MLB videos play on my Apple system. At least the highlights do. I don't have MLB.tv or watch condensed games.

    I don't think I can download whole games.

    2007-09-23 21:11:31
    481.   Paul Scott
    478 479 Yeah. I get that. I'm not sure I think Bradley is a good deal either. But that was not the question. The question was if he was a better choice than Pierre. I think that answer is quite obviously yes - again - even taking into consideration is behavior and injury risks.
    2007-09-23 21:17:45
    482.   Daniel Zappala
    480 Including the Bradley video linked to up above? Only some pages use the new player.
    2007-09-23 21:18:05
    483.   Da Dodge
    Late on the entry here. Nice bullet points Jon. Time to take the plunge. Jump in the deep end. Kids never will mature unless given the chance. The Snakes did it. We must do it now. When have we had a chance like this with so many young quality players. Early 90s we had Piazza and Karros and management freaked and traded Pedro for a veteran 2B. And Konerko? All the Juan Samuels and Delino Deshields since 1988 have gotten us squat. We always try to grab a crafty vet whose days are behind him (Strawman, anyone?) Our fans will accept a true rebuilding year (and will it have to be that with out pitching staff and Schmidt's return?) so let's do it. Save the $9 million here and there for NG and JK and LG, play the youth, and save up for a truly game-changing free agent (like Vlad would have been or A-Rod).
    2007-09-23 21:18:44
    484.   Nagman
    I live and work in SD and I've been telling my Padre fan colleagues that he's a time bomb and it's not a matter of if he goes off, it's a matter of when. I told you so.

    Despite all that talent, you just can't count on MB for all the reasons mentioned here. I can remember how relieved I was when he was traded.

    2007-09-23 21:21:26
    485.   Dodgers49
    Bradley injured after getting tossed

    >> "In 26 years of baseball, I couldn't believe my ears the way that he spoke to Milton. [It] was so disrespectful, so angry, so vindictive. The boiling point is when he called Milton a name. Milton did not saying anything to him to get him to do that." <<

    http://tinyurl.com/2napjf

    I'd be interested to know what was said. :-) Still though, Bradley has no one to blame but himself. Why even question the umpire? Especially since he knows they don't like him. I think Milton is a talented player. But if I were a GM I'd pass on him. He just seems unable to control himself. So despite his talent you can never be sure of his availability

    2007-09-23 21:22:49
    486.   trainwreck
    If all it takes is one player having a meltdown for your team to go down the drain then that team has a lot of problems.

    I think the Pads will still make it without Milton. They will rely on their pitching, like they have been doing all year.

    2007-09-23 21:23:54
    487.   Bob Timmermann
    482
    The Bradley video played fine on my PowerBook.
    2007-09-23 21:27:54
    488.   Bob Timmermann
    486
    You mean like having Brett Tomko try to win a big game for them in San Francisco?
    2007-09-23 21:29:40
    489.   Daniel Zappala
    487 My iMac too ... after loading the Silverlight plugin.
    2007-09-23 21:30:23
    490.   trainwreck
    How can you stop Back to the Basics Brett?
    2007-09-23 21:30:49
    491.   Bob Timmermann
    489
    Maybe I loaded that in sometime without knowing it.
    2007-09-23 21:56:33
    492.   regfairfield
    467 Thank you. I hate when I see theories that work well in almost every occassion get called worthless because one team in a century blows it out of the water.
    2007-09-23 22:17:04
    493.   Dodgers49
    How long would it take T.J. Simers to start his "campaign" against Matt Kemp? Not as long as even I imagined.

    These young Dodgers can't even be homers

    >> PHOENIX -- Tony Abreu hit a first-inning home run for a 1-0 Dodgers lead Sunday, reason enough to stop the game and mark the occasion with a rousing ceremony, but Matt Kemp never moved off the on-deck circle some 20 yards away.

    Abreu circled the bases, and while he should have been greeted by a high five, enthusiastic handshake or energetic pat on the back from his teammate at home plate, Kemp remained in his own little world.

    "How come?"

    "What kind of question is that?" Kemp said later, his answer once again a reminder of an attitude that threatens to sabotage potential for great success. "If you had been on the field you would have heard me say, 'Good job.' You got to come with better questions than that." <<

    ## Luis Gonzalez, who has done everything he can to remain positive knowing this will be his final week in a Dodgers uniform, refused to bite his tongue Sunday, taking offense to Loney's rebuke.

    "Look at the back of his bubble-gum card, and all those numbers compiled over the years, which tell you how consistent [Kent] has been," Gonzalez said, "and consistency is what gets you respect in this game."

    Or, as Lowe put it, "you can't have young players thinking they are bulletproof. No one should be bulletproof around here, walking around believing they don't have to listen to anybody ##

    %% "This has to be settled going into spring training," Lowe said. "If there has to be a knockout, drag-out fight, so be it. But it cannot carry over where we're having this same conversation. We can't have the young players believing they are bulletproof. %%

    http://tinyurl.com/2oa8zx

    2007-09-23 22:21:02
    494.   Bob Timmermann
    493
    The only reply I can think of is:

    Sigh

    2007-09-23 22:24:22
    495.   trainwreck
    Why must everyone just assume the young guys have to be conceded jerks that think they are bulletproof?
    2007-09-23 22:25:58
    496.   Dodgers49
    493. "This has to be settled going into spring training," Lowe said.

    I agree. And I would start by trading Derek Lowe.

    2007-09-23 22:31:05
    497.   ToyCannon
    I always wondered what would have happened if Steve Finley had never been traded for in 2004. Upto that point Milton had been a great teammate, playing solid baseball, and being a motivating spark on a fun baseball team to watch. Then we traded for Finley and even though Milton was the better center fielder he was the one who was forced to move to a position he wasn't comfortable in. From there it just got worse.

    I never liked Steve Finley and thought he got to much credit for hitting a grand slam when all we needed was a sacrifice fly. From a subjective view I thought he played a terrible CF during his time with us and he royaly sucked in Sept.

    I was in Miltons corner until he screwed Depo/Tracy and took his Kent problems to the press. I'd have fired him the next day and he's been dead to me since, but at one time in July of 2004 he was my favorite Dodger.

    2007-09-23 22:33:13
    498.   Suffering Bruin
    Derek Lowe, future GM:

    "... historically teams with a lot of young players don't win championships right away."

    " Do they already know the team they're going to field is not going to be competitive next year?"

    Thank heavens for veteran leadership. I mean, if that doesn't inspire the young players, I don't know what will.

    2007-09-23 22:34:51
    499.   Bob Timmermann
    498
    And yet the Dodgers were just playing in Arizona.

    Apparently, Tony Clark is why Arizona is in first.

    2007-09-23 22:35:38
    500.   Suffering Bruin
    Oh, and TJ? It's not just Kemp and Loney who are young. Russell Martin is pretty young, too.
    Show/Hide Comments 501-550
    2007-09-23 22:36:32
    501.   bhsportsguy
    Why does one side have to be right? Isn't it possible that there are somethings that need to be communicated between various memebers of the team.

    I'm not saying that Kemp is wrong but I am also not saying that Gonzo is necessarily wrong either.

    If A-Rod came to the team, are guys going to respect his achievements or just consider him someone who almost 10 years older then them.

    This is why I think there may be grains of truth mixed in with some other agendas that the people who cover the Dodgers may have.

    And Derek Lowe is right, this will have to be dealt with before Opening Day next year.

    2007-09-23 22:36:51
    502.   arnold
    In this discussion of Dodger youth versus veteran, only the positional player has been considered. All writers fail to mention the other half of the team. Isn't our pitching staff a blend of youth, players in their prime and older veterans with varying degrees of success? I find it ironic there is no mention of this matter. I believe our team success/failure came down to lack of good pitching throughout the year. Next year there is no young player replacement for Penny and Lowe. In fact we are unsure who our 4th and 5th starters will be. There will be no youth movement with our starters that is not already there. The same goes for our relief pitching.

    Go Ducks vs. Cal.

    2007-09-23 22:43:08
    503.   Dodgers49
    497. I never liked Steve Finley and thought he got to much credit for hitting a grand slam when all we needed was a sacrifice fly.

    I've never had anything against Finley. But your post reminded me that it's always kind of bothered me when folks seem to place his grand slam almost on the same level with Gibson's homer. Jayson Werth had already gotten the key hit in the game to tie the score and remove all the pressure. All we needed from Finley was a long fly ball that didn't even have to leave the park. I've witnessed an awful lot of Dodgers hits that I would place ahead of that one.

    2007-09-23 22:43:35
    504.   trainwreck
    I am positive our players would respect A-Rod. and highly doubt anyone would just seem him as just some older guy.
    2007-09-23 22:45:44
    505.   Eric Enders
    502 "Next year there is no young player replacement for Penny and Lowe. There will be no youth movement with our starters that is not already there."

    This is simply untrue. Unless something unexpected happens, Kershaw, McDonald, and perhaps Elbert will be misdeason callups.

    498 "Do they already know the team they're going to field is not going to be competitive next year?"

    In fairness to Lowe, this quote has been removed from its context. In context (that is, as quoted in Simers' article), it appears to be a genuine question on Lowe's part, not a rhetorical one. He really wants to know if we're going to field a competitive team; he's not saying we aren't.

    However, I will admit the ridiculousness of Lowe's point of view. I mean, just over a month ago, he blasted the team for not trading away all the young players. Now he expects them to look to him as a leader?

    2007-09-23 22:46:19
    506.   CanuckDodger
    504 -- Trainwreck, how did you like Twitch City, if you have watched much of it yet?
    2007-09-23 22:46:54
    507.   LAT
    I don't know if Kemp is a jerk or Loney is aloof but even if they are who cares? Is Manny Rameriz "out there." Is A Rod selfish? Is Barry . . . (too easy). There are lots and lots of extremely good ball players who may not be the person we want them to be. They are not all Russell Martin. Heck, I don't know if Russell Martin is the Russell Martin that the press portrays. If he is great. If he isn't so what. If Kemp mashes and he arrogant who cares? Jeff Kent mashes and he is irrasable as they come. This whole notion that the young guys are supposed to fulfill some NOrman Rockwell image in TJ Simmers mind is nonsense.

    One more thing, props to Nomar for keeping his mouth shut throughout this whole thing. (There isn't much he could say but that hasn't stopped LuGo.)

    Finally, I agree with Lowe. This must be settled by next year. At least next year anyone who comes to the Dodgers should know what they are up against. Anyone who comes in with LuGo expectations about playing time will only have themself to blame.

    2007-09-23 22:48:20
    508.   Suffering Bruin
    501 You're right, of course. But the issue is not whether both sides are right. The issue is that there is a problem that exists with the team and no one knows why. We can only guess because this story is being driven by the most (ahem) 'creative' columnist in the history of the Los Angeles Times.

    I mean, really, what is the problem here? Is it that the vets think the kids are too playful? Or is it that the youngsters are too careless with... whatever?

    What I do know is that Kemp, Loney and Martin are the future of this franchise and all three are infinitely more valuable than the vets who are complaining.

    2007-09-23 22:49:10
    509.   ToyCannon
    Veterans are taught to keep things in-house. If the veterans have been sniping about the kids to the press that is not keeping it in house. What Kent did is not keeping it in house. The kids just responded, I expect they felt that someone had put a knife in their back.

    I'm disgusted with Kent, Lowe, and whoever has been sniping to the press. I don't care if anything they say has merit, it needn't be played out for the hounds. They eat up this stuff and turn it into a circus.

    Camille has been doing a poor job of managing this situation. The idea that quotes are still being flung about makes us look like a pathetic organization.

    I'm disgusted.

    2007-09-23 22:50:20
    510.   CanuckDodger
    505 -- What is Lowe's ERA post-All Star Break? What is simply astounding to me is that these vets can't see that their OWN failures are what drew the curtain on our season. It is like they are out of touch with reality, delusional.
    2007-09-23 22:50:53
    511.   Greg Brock
    If this is the kind of petty back-biting that I've missed over the past two weeks, well, I'm glad I've missed it.

    And if this is the future of next year's club, I'm certainly happy to miss all of it. The Nats move into their new yard next year. Excitement abounds.

    And kudos to Grady for handling this situation like a pro...Keeping it all in house. I'm really disappointed in Grady.

    Bring on Bobby V, or...gasp...Joe Girardi. I like Grady, but I can't believe he's allowing these shenanigans in the press.

    2007-09-23 22:51:05
    512.   trainwreck
    506
    I watched the first episode and I think it is going to be a good satire on the TV generation.
    I liked the cameo from Snake from Degrassi Junior High, on the Rex Reilly Show.

    I also found it funny that two of the characters on the show were in David Cronenberg's eXistenZ. I think that is a pretty good joke by Cronenberg.

    2007-09-23 22:52:09
    513.   Dodgers49
    498. The thing that surprised me was that the Dodgers had a team meeting the other day after the Kent vs Loney/Kemp thing in the newspapers. I had assumed Grady had asked the players to handle this in-house and not in the press. Yet Lowe and LuGo, two of the most veteran players on the team, decided to go public. What does that tell you? Probably that this situation is even worse than I thought.
    2007-09-23 22:52:14
    514.   Suffering Bruin
    505 Thanks for that clarification. Lowe's comment, taken out of context, sounds much worse that it actually is.

    What I did inadvertently, TJ Simers does by design very, very frequently.

    2007-09-23 22:57:43
    515.   bhsportsguy
    A quick run through of all the current playoff contenders, the Mets are the oldest, Arizona is the youngest (some of that due to injury) but most of the teams average around 29 years old.

    I agree with most that the problem isn't that these issues exist, its that we keep hearing about them.

    2007-09-23 22:58:33
    516.   LAT
    I mean, really, what is the problem here? Is it that the vets think the kids are too playful? Or is it that the youngsters are too careless with... whatever?

    BH, your comment hits the nail on the head. This is the only relevant inquiry. If the kids were stinking up the place this controversy would not exist. The only answer I can come up with is the Kids are not showing the Vets enough respect.

    2007-09-23 23:00:37
    517.   CanuckDodger
    ToyCannon, did you get my response to your questions about Xavier Paul the other night? I think I might have sent my reply to your business e-mail address.
    2007-09-23 23:02:56
    518.   ToyCannon
    517
    I haven't sent you a question yet. Must have been someone else who saw your email. Mine will come from my molokai email address.
    2007-09-23 23:04:52
    519.   ToyCannon
    Tuesday Night should be a near empty stadium. I hope I see the same lineup but I know I'll see Gonzo, Kent, and Nomar.
    2007-09-23 23:05:07
    520.   trainwreck
    Just throwing this out there, but maybe the issue is not whether the youngsters respect what the veterans have accomplished, but whether they respect their attitudes and personalities.

    Not like Jeff Kent, Derek Lowe, and some of our other players have the greatest of reputations.

    2007-09-23 23:05:22
    521.   Greg Brock
    I would like somebody to think of a time when they were young, and somebody above them (job, paygrade, age, etc.) sided with the newcomer or youngster over their peer. It doesn't happen.

    The function of every bureaucracy is to perpetuate itself, and the function of every veteran is to perpetuate the importance of veterans. This is self preservation and cronyism. I've said it a bunch of times...It seems like, sometimes, baseball (from the field to the front office) is the very antithesis of a meritocracy.

    2007-09-23 23:07:45
    522.   CanuckDodger
    518 -- Oh, okay. I thought that person was you using your real name, but I did think it was weird that the e-mail address they gave didn't match the molokai e-mail address.
    2007-09-23 23:11:49
    523.   bhsportsguy
    519 Its Japanese American Heritage Night, the place will be full.

    Actually, I'll be there because a friend of mind got some free tickets.

    If the place is empty, it won't because of all this talk.

    2007-09-23 23:15:43
    524.   eusmus
    Welp, I just watched Abreu's dinger again on MLB.TV and Matt Kemp did indeed congratulate him. It's sad that I actually cared enough to check.
    2007-09-23 23:16:53
    525.   Greg Brock
    I wonder where Russell Martin is in the middle of this. I'd guess he's just trying to lay low and play baseball. Like a professional.
    2007-09-23 23:20:06
    526.   Eric Enders
    And whether Kemp congratulated Abreu or not, the fact that Simers identified something so ridiculously minor as being emblematic of "what's wrong with the Dodgers" is proof that he had really just made up his mind to look for something negative to say about the young guys. That he had to look so hard and still couldn't find anything legit is fairly encouraging.
    2007-09-23 23:21:31
    527.   ToyCannon
    523
    No, it will have nothing to do with the talk. Meaningless weekday Sept games, usually mean season ticket holders stay home and they can't give away their seats. Your JAHN are all special seats but when you look down you'll see a lot of empy FB and Loge seats between the bases.

    Friday Night will be packed because we love our fleece blanket night.

    2007-09-23 23:22:12
    528.   Eric Enders
    I kind of like Gonzo sticking his nose in all this. You know, I do believe that seniority should mean something in baseball. And since both Loney and Kemp have more seniority on the Dodgers than Gonzo does, he should just shut the hell up and do whatever they tell him to.
    2007-09-23 23:24:10
    529.   Greg Brock
    Simers identified something so ridiculously minor as being emblematic of "what's wrong with insert situation" is proof that he had really just made up his mind to look for something negative to say about everything he writes about.

    FTFY

    2007-09-23 23:29:32
    530.   Icaros
    I just want the LA Times to go out of business.

    But keep Marty on payroll.

    2007-09-23 23:30:14
    531.   jasonungar07
    I am glad our GM prefers charchter and guys who want to be here over talent. Where would we be without guys like that. We can't fire Coletti soon enough for me.
    2007-09-23 23:33:34
    532.   LAT
    If the company you keep reflects on you then how can Kemp and Martin be judged so diffrently. They are best friends on the team. Maybe Matt;s just a reseve guy. Maybe he's standoffish. I hate when people kiss me socially. If you are not Mama LAT, Mrs. LAT, daughters LAT or a really hot stripper my buds hired for me why are you trying to kiss my cheek? Some people have some strange hang-ups. That's mine. Maybe Matt hates middle aged reporters who tease him and call him trite made up names in print. Mayne he wants to avoid getting drawn into Simmers webb like a wet kiss.
    2007-09-23 23:34:45
    533.   KG16
    521 - you really thought baseball was a meritocracy? The only sport that is worse than baseball in being an anti-meritocracy is the NFL - how many head coaches have been recycled in the last few years? And Matt Millen still has a job.

    Baseball's culture is well settled. It has little to do with actual ability and more to do with how much time you put in, and whether you did it the "right" way. That's why it took baseball 75 years to integrate, it's why a lot of the legends of the Negro Leagues are left out of the Hall of Fame. It's why Pete Rose, despite being one of the best ballplayers of all time isn't even allowed to enter the Hall of Fame. I'll even through in everyone's favorite gripe of late, playing through injuries so as to not let the team down.

    Yes, a lot of it is incredibly stupid. But that is baseball, for better or worse.

    You want a meritocracy in sports? Start following UFC or hockey - where good young players take over every year and old players who were once good buy teams.

    2007-09-23 23:41:55
    534.   Dodgers49
    526. The problem I have is that I knew this was coming once T.J. got involved. When the Kent vs Loney/Kemp thing hit he sided with Kent as I knew he would. That doesn't matter that much. But I also knew that whenever he wrote anything about the Dodgers from here on out he would be taking shots at Kemp and Loney at every opportunity. And they're young guys who are not media savvy so he'll turn their words against them whenever they consent to an interview. Simers is going to keep this stirred up for all it's worth for as long as he can keep it going.
    2007-09-23 23:43:46
    535.   trainwreck
    533
    I do not think there is complete meritocracy in any sport.

    Certainly not in the UFC. Much of the matchmaking decisions in the UFC are based off building up certain fighters they find marketable (such as Roger Huerta) or based off the marketability of matches. There is a reason why Randy Couture got an immediate title shot in the heavyweight division.

    2007-09-23 23:44:08
    536.   natepurcell
    This is retarded. Simers is that he is an arrogant smartass. Does he even give intellectual answers when he is emailed with criticisms of his articles? You can't even argue common sense into him.
    2007-09-23 23:48:16
    537.   CanuckDodger
    536 -- Did you e-mail him and get a ridiculous reply?
    2007-09-23 23:49:57
    538.   natepurcell
    536

    I don't even want to bother. I've seen enough people in the past who try to do that and in return get a flaming bag of manure in their mailbox.

    2007-09-23 23:53:47
    539.   Eric Enders
    538 Or, worse, in his next column.
    2007-09-23 23:54:31
    540.   natepurcell
    I also want to say Derek Lowe is an idiot. And if he feels his time is running up as well, then he can go too.
    2007-09-24 00:05:46
    541.   natepurcell
    but seriously though, we are going to have a decent amount of money freed up this winter and limited holes to fill. How is Colletti going to spend (waste) it?
    2007-09-24 00:07:37
    542.   regfairfield
    540 While I don't like D-Lowe complaining, he's clarly one of our best players, and I don't see how people (not necasarilly you in particualar) can argue for wanting a mertiocracy then went Kent/D-Lowe/whatever player actually deserves a job gone.
    2007-09-24 00:08:14
    543.   natepurcell
    Who said this
    "Nice effort by Billingsley today... I'm telling you, this kid is a potential No. 1 starter who could become one of the league's elite starting pitchers as soon as next season."

    HATER!!!

    2007-09-24 00:10:57
    544.   natepurcell
    542

    I don't want him gone. But if he doesn't want to be here, then he can go. If these are the types of quotes and attitude we are going to be getting all year next year then its not worth it. Especially with his hip problem and horrible second half.

    2007-09-24 00:12:04
    545.   Greg Brock
    I guess I don't understand why Jeff Kent would lash out at Kemp, Loney, Ethier, or any other young kid. They've all surpassed LuGo, Nomar, and our CF. Is their production diminished by some veteran matrix I don't understand? What have they done wrong. Why is this an issue?

    What is Jeff Kent so angry about? How are the young kids failing? What is the real problem?

    What am I missing? What is the problem?

    2007-09-24 00:16:04
    546.   Strike4
    I wonder if any of this year's young players felt they missed an opportunity to learn from the veterans. The rotating lineups certainly would have made it more difficult for a rookie to ask for input. It would have taken veterans to break the ice and take some time with a rookie. Grady and his staff should have pushed this too. Kent's point about there being too many to train at once only emphasizes the need for Grady to have recognized the need and set up some mentoring or at least some interaction. I don't think management should wait for this to happen on its own.
    2007-09-24 00:16:53
    547.   El Lay Dave
    545 Jeff Kent thinks he has tenure. ;)
    2007-09-24 00:21:19
    548.   dzzrtRatt
    In America, we sentimentalize youth. I think that's a cultural factor here. We expect youth to "be seen and not heard," to be adorable, innocent, uncorrupted by the world. And when they disappoint us, we eat them.

    We're not much different from sharks.

    2007-09-24 00:25:07
    549.   El Lay Dave
    The worst thing about all these comments from Kent, Loney, Kemp, Lowe and so on is not exactly what is spoken, but the inability of Grady Little and the Dodger front office to manage this situation and keep this from continuing to be played out in front of the worst piranhas of the press (e.g. Simers). The more public this stays, the more difficult it will be for the Dodgers to bring this to a workable conclusion.

    As someone pointed out the other day, the irony is that the oldest vets have been fine (Kent, Gonzo for the most part) and the kids have produced (Loney, Kemp, Billingsley, Martin, Broxton, et al.), but it is the 30ish crowd that has posed the significant problems: Pierre, Furcal, Nomar all low OBP and powerless, Wolf and Schmidt unable to stay or be healthy, too many bad starts from Tomko and Hendrickson.

    2007-09-24 00:29:12
    550.   Greg Brock
    In America, we sentimentalize youth.

    There is a very good reason for that. Youth represents a fresh start. Youth represents energy and determination. Youth represents the opportunity to make amends for the mistakes of the older generation. Youth represents promise.

    It's especially nice when youth is more talented than the established vets. The Dodgers have the very best of youth. I hope we don't defer to the dilapidated past. I hope we embrace the youth. I hope we jettison preconceived notions of veteran leadership.

    Show/Hide Comments 551-600
    2007-09-24 01:14:09
    551.   dzzrtRatt
    Yes, but what I'm referring to is the comments especially of TJ Simers, Lowe and Kent and how they're being interpreted. The media likes the fresh-faced boys until they start acting like men, expressing emotions, getting angry, showing strength, refusing to be silent. Then youth is attacked.

    This happens in politics, business, everything. It's especially absurd when it happens in sports since that's a youthful pursuit. Compared to, er, me, Derek Lowe is a young man. But he's acting like his nose is out of joint because some kids a decade younger than he is are acting just like he did a decade ago.

    They should initially be judged on their abilities. If they need to be taught, the investment of time and energy in teaching them will pay off for everyone. If Kent or Lowe sincerely see something Kemp or Loney ought to change, take them aside quietly, don't humiliate them, just help them get better. And Lowe and Kent will be among the beneficiaries.

    2007-09-24 01:37:13
    552.   Andrew Shimmin
    Another day, still no explanation of what the young players did to get anybody's back up. Lowe's complaint seems to be that they think too much of themselves, which could be true. But what would have to be wrong with James Loney for him to think he wasn't better at baseball than Nomar is? What would have to be wrong with Kemp, or Ethier to think they weren't better than LuGo and Pierre? It's only arrogance if you're wrong.

    Can we all agree that the young players should have had to do something wrong, before they started getting called names? That picking on somebody who hasn't yet done anything wrong is jerky behavior?

    I like that Martin isn't saying anything quotable about this. The old guys had better hope he continues not to; if he opens up on them, it's all over. L'etat, c'est Russ.

    2007-09-24 01:39:21
    553.   Andrew Shimmin
    Going by WARP, Odalis Perez's 2006 was better than Nomar's 2007. Perez's 2007 has been better than Pierre's 2007.
    2007-09-24 01:48:32
    554.   Andrew Shimmin
    How fantastically irritating. Perez's 2007 WARP is 2.1. Pierre's is now 2.2. It was 1.8 the other day. I regret the error.
    2007-09-24 06:10:40
    555.   D4P
    I wonder if any of this year's young players felt they missed an opportunity to learn from the veterans

    Kemp has apparently picked up some baserunning tips from Kent...

    2007-09-24 07:03:25
    556.   RELX
    Is baseball about winning, or is some veteran code more important? The veterans all seem to have the attitude, "we could have made the playoffs this year if it weren't for the fact that we played all those rookies who dragged the team down." Do they mean rookies like Loney, who has carried this team in September; Martin, who has been our best player all season; Billingsley, who has been our best starting pitcher the last two months; Broxton, who has been our second best reliever all season; Kemp, who has been our best outfielder the second half of the season?

    Even more laughable is the fact that the veterans who are speaking out, particularly Kent and now Lowe, have had clubhouse problems in the last few years, well AFTER they had become established veterans. Lowe said in 2005 that the whole Carolyn Hughes thing was the reason he was pitching so poorly (great veteran focus), and Kent has the whole motorcycle thing, plus the fight with Bonds in the dugout, which, no matter what you think of Bonds, is not exactly showing veteran leadership.

    2007-09-24 07:43:02
    557.   Marty
    Only the Dodgers could screw up one of the best youth movements since the early 70's Dodgers.

    This seems to be a generational thing that I see being played out at the Times as well. The Times is buying out a lot of people who've been there 20 years and more and they are hiring lots of young, cheap, more energetic people to replace them. There's a lot of resentment.

    The start of this I'm convinced was Kemp's base running errors. I suspect he wasn't contrite enough or didn't "listen" to any advice from the old guys or coaches. Before that, we didn't hear a peep about problems with the kids.

    2007-09-24 07:52:04
    558.   D4P
    What is the most likely scenario:

    1. Management keeps the veterans, gets rid of the kids, and replaces them with more veterans
    2. Management keeps the kids, gets rid of the veterans, and fills the holes with (presumably) other veterans
    3. Management keeps the roster intact, and fills the holes with (presumably) other veterans

    2007-09-24 07:53:33
    559.   Daniel Zappala
    The Times is buying out a lot of people who've been there 20 years and more and they are hiring lots of young, cheap, more energetic people to replace them. There's a lot of resentment.

    Quick, we need a couple of journalism majors who will offer to write sports for the Times at half the price of Plaschke and Simers. I promise not to be resentful.

    2007-09-24 07:53:54
    560.   screwballin
    I guess I side with BH on this one in that they all could be wrong. When Kent sounded off, there was nothing surprising about that. But when other vets joined in, I had to wonder if the kids haven't done something to deserve it. If I were a veteran player, I could imagine having a hard time with the youth of today and their "don't disrespect me" attitude.

    I just think that much of what happens behind the scenes in sports is unknowable to fans, so we'll never really be sure what caused this. That leaves me with no one to blame, and just hoping this dies out over the winter. That could happen, because a few of these veterans will be gone and a few others will be expecting diminished roles.

    2007-09-24 07:54:52
    561.   RELX
    557. I also think the problems started to develop when the vets realized the kids were good, and therefore a threat to their jobs, ala LuGo. That is why it is also laughable that Kent and Lowe have problems with the young players, as their jobs are in no danger.

    While many of us have mixed feelings about Colletti, to say the least, I think this off-season will sort of be his proving ground. Does he go full throttle with the young players next season, or does he trade a few of them because "they don't play baseball the right way," or some other absurdity?

    2007-09-24 07:55:44
    562.   screwballin
    559 There are probably only a few million sportswriters who'd be willing to do that.
    2007-09-24 07:57:17
    563.   fiddlestick
    I'm still waiting for one of these "journalists" to ask the questions of the veteran complainers-- "Should not the best players on the team play to give the team the best chance of winning, and if so, which young players exactly, do you think are performing worse than the older guys whose AB's they're taking?"
    2007-09-24 08:03:57
    564.   LAT
    I wonder how Broxton and Bills are viewed in all this. I guess it depends on how they behave. As I understand the current state of things, if Broxton, who blew a few games down the strech, has the proper contrite attitude it ok he lost those games. But if Bills, who has been lights out is arrogant, than there is a problem. What kind of alternate universive are we living in?

    For the next hazing stunt. The kids should make Kent and LuGo dress up like Aretha Franklin and belt out R-E-S-P-E-C-T

    2007-09-24 08:10:52
    565.   ToyCannon
    558
    1. 0%
    2. 0%
    3. 100%
    2007-09-24 08:13:42
    566.   JoeyP
    I don't know if Kemp is a jerk or Loney is aloof but even if they are who cares?

    This hits it right on the head.
    The whole problem here is with the veterans thinking that the youngsters "owe" them something. As if the veterans on this team are baseball "yodas", who have some special dose of enlightenment.

    In all honestly, I'm not really sure what the young players could learn from the older ones. Its not like a rookie NFL QB having to learn NFL defenses---we're talking about baseball. A game that is the same at virtually all levels.

    Why does one side have to be right? Isn't it possible that there are somethings that need to be communicated between various memebers of the team.

    What needs to be communicated?
    All the Dodgers need is for each player to do their job--produce--on the field. Thats it. Its not rocket science. Who cares how they act outside of the white lines?

    The only reason the veteran players are bringing this inconsequential garbage is up, is because they have nothing else to hang their hats on. All they have is that mythical "experience", and "chemistry". In todays blog world, people see right through that stuff, which is why most of the quotes from Gonzo, Kent, Lowe---get totally disected and destroyed.

    I'm not surprised that the veteran attitudes on this team are direct correlation to upper management. Take a look at the quotes of Greg Maddux about team chemistry, or Chris Young about holding base runners. There's an entirely different upper management dynamic in San Diego, and you see it all the way down to the players.

    Unfortunately for the Dodgers, they are the exact opposite.

    2007-09-24 08:14:02
    567.   Bumsrap
    Can anybody really imagine the uproar if Kemp had jumped up and down high fiving Abreu at home plate after Abreu's homerun at a point in the season where the Dodgers are all but eliminated and coming off a 7 game soling streak?

    Now is a time for for quiet pride and it looks like Kemp mastered that after Abreu's homerun. Remember Mondesi prancing to first after hitting his 30th homerun after the Dodgers had been eliminated. Everyone said he was selfish and only excited with his acomplishments and apparantly did not care if the team won or not.

    2007-09-24 08:20:14
    568.   Bumsrap
    Here is my replacement for Pierre: Ellsbury, Jacoby OF BOS

    Although with Pierre playing instead of Young it looked like Pierre is considered part of the youth movement.

    And, not that it is posible in that the young pitchers will be ready or ever will be, but if they were I repeat I would love to see the 2008 rotation be Billingsley, Kershaw, Miller, McDonald and either Meloan, Elbert, or a young pitcher obtained in a trade like Cain.

    2007-09-24 08:27:43
    569.   D4P
    565
    I'm not ready to rule out 1 and 2 completely, but I definitely think 3 is the most likely scenario in terms of what Management would like to have happen.
    2007-09-24 08:29:16
    570.   Terry A
    566 - At times like this, I'm reminded of the words of Paul DePodesta, who said: "If you are an ageist, I will attack you with the North."
    2007-09-24 08:29:38
    571.   D4P
    Quick: which team has the best record in the MLB?
    2007-09-24 08:42:11
    572.   Bob Timmermann
    571
    Can I play?
    2007-09-24 08:43:43
    573.   screwballin
    566 Who cares how they act outside of the white lines?

    Their co-workers have every right to care how they act, no? We've all had to work with people who were unpleasant or worse, we just didn't have the press asking about them. Given such a megaphone, probably a lot of us would have spoken out.

    2007-09-24 08:44:22
    574.   Bob Timmermann
    568
    Ellsbury will stick with Boston so they can keep up with the Yankees in the Prominent Native Americans Department.
    2007-09-24 08:46:42
    575.   screwballin
    568 How good does Penny have to be to earn a spot? We would have been in trouble without him this season, and I think the same goes for next.
    2007-09-24 08:47:28
    576.   Ken Noe
    I repeat what I said here two months ago: move Lowe and Kent ASAP for the best prospects possible, and DFA any other vet who can't be moved. Yes, without Lowe next year's pitching may be worse. I'm ready to bite the bullet.
    2007-09-24 08:48:10
    577.   Bluebleeder87
    It's official T.J Simers is on a crusade of, "youth bashing" It's pretty funny too cause his daughter seems to have more reason then Simers. You can't take a guy like Simers serious when theres no balance in his argument, he just spins things to his liking, oh well.
    2007-09-24 08:51:35
    578.   Daniel Zappala
    571 I believe that would be the Indians, with the Red Sox and Angels right behind. But then, I've been fanatical about following the standings this year.
    2007-09-24 08:52:13
    579.   Ken Noe
    577 I wonder how much of it is simply that Simers and Kent have become favorite sparring partners, if not buddies. Weren't they giving away together signed jerseys for charity earlier in the season?
    2007-09-24 08:53:50
    580.   Daniel Zappala
    Amazing that the Rockies could challenge for the wild card. They're only a game and a half back, and if they sweep the Dodgers again they could be in really good shape.
    2007-09-24 08:55:07
    581.   screwballin
    576 Hey, why stop there? Why not line them up against a fence and bullwhip them first?

    Here's hoping the Dodgers can handle this without crippling our chances by getting rid of players we need. Let's face it, this probably happens all the time in every clubhouse; you just don't hear about it unless Kent is on the team.

    2007-09-24 08:59:25
    582.   Ken Noe
    581 Please. We're talking about two guys who will be gone anyway after 2008. Get something now or nothing in a year. Not to mention that a statue of Jackie Robinson could field second base better right now.
    2007-09-24 08:59:46
    583.   underdog
    Maybe TJ Simers is on a youth bashing brigade because he identifies with the worries of veteran players. As a once-talented veteran sportswriter he probably worries about young upstart talent they have at the Times. And... oh wait, TJ Simers was never talented, and the Times doesn't seem to have any good young sportswriters. Never mind! Still, I think he relates to the curmudgeons, and since he basically doesn't know what he's talking about he just writes from his gut.
    2007-09-24 09:00:02
    584.   JoeyP
    573---Thats true. However, if the co-workers do their job, its up to us to just put up with them. Its not our obligation or right to change the attitudes of the people we work with, if in fact they are doing a good job at the task they were assigned to do.
    2007-09-24 09:00:53
    585.   jasonungar07
    -Coletti should have kept this in house.
    -Coletti is the one who has had this attitude all year in actions and words that veterans are better than kids because kids have alot to learn.
    -Coletti put together this joke of a roster.
    -Coletti hired the manager (for those who think the manager should have kept it in house).

    For Jeff Kent this is all par for the course. Just like 05. As soon as we are eliminated or about to be, he causes problems.

    2007-09-24 09:01:37
    586.   GoBears
    All I know is that if they're determined to lose fans, this is the way to go about it.

    I'm with ToyCannon - disgusted.

    I'm also with D4P - worried that Colletti is dumb enough to buy into this garbage and ruin what could be a great thing.

    2007-09-24 09:01:48
    587.   underdog
    And yeah, as someone pointed out above, what the heck is Camille Johnston's job again? Their PR department is obviously incapable of dealing with these kinds of fires, even though it's part of their job. Not that it's easy to intervene with player communications within the clubhouse, but sheesh, time to figure this out.
    2007-09-24 09:02:05
    588.   Bluebleeder87
    & like a lot of you mentioned here yesterday, there was no mention that the youth were the ones that got the Dodgers out of there 7 game losing streak.
    2007-09-24 09:06:10
    589.   GoBears
    Has anyone read a peep from Colletti since this all started? Is he in self-imposed exile, or what? The most optimistic interpretation, I suppose, is that he knows guys are just blowing off steam, that it doesn't matter any more this year, and that a few months off will settle things down without any drastic measures necessary to fix a non-problem.

    Unforunately, I'm not an optimist by nature.

    2007-09-24 09:08:08
    590.   Paul Scott
    586 "I'm also with D4P - worried that Colletti is dumb enough to buy into this garbage and ruin what could be a great thing."

    What do you mean "buy in"? He is the one selling it. And he started ruining what should have been a great thing the day he was hired. He has not succeeded yet, but given time he will.

    2007-09-24 09:08:17
    591.   Ken Noe
    583 Simers functions better in attack mode. The only reason he backed off this year was because he started writing all those "Jeff Kent is really my kinda guy" essays. Right now he's defending his boy.
    2007-09-24 09:12:06
    592.   Ken Noe
    589 I'm guessing--hoping--that yesterday's lineup was his answer. But let's see what the next few look like.
    2007-09-24 09:13:35
    593.   ToyCannon
    Go Angels
    2007-09-24 09:13:44
    594.   Eric Stephen
    Sorry to lump together crappy sportwriters (I feel like ESPN), but in Michael Ventre's horrible article on the Dodgers this weekend, he had this quote from Lowe:

    "To go with a total youth movement is not fair to the veterans, and not fair to the city. I am a firm believer that you use the minor league system to help the major league team now. You try to win today, and four years from now, you will probably have a kid just as good as the one you got rid of."

    I'm not saying this quote is all bad; I can sort of see where Lowe is coming from (channeling my inner-bhsportsguy). But I think there is an incorrect assumption that all youth movements coming with automatic losing. If the young players are good, won't the wins come sooner, perhaps even immediately (although I'm not saying there is no immunity to growing pains).

    I just find it incredible ironic (perhaps I need a ruling from the irony police that Lowe is a believer in "use the minor league team to win now", the same attitude that produced one of the most lospided trades of the last 50 years:

    July 31, 1997
    Seattle gets RP Heathcliff Slocumb (31 years old)
    Boston gets C Jason Varitek (25) & P Derrek Lowe (24)

    2007-09-24 09:18:08
    595.   underdog
    589 I saw Colletti quoted a few times this past week. There was this:
    http://www.beloblog.com/Pe_Blogs/baseball/dodgers/2007/09/ned_responds.html

    594 Yeah, that trade's always a good one to toss back into Lowe's face if he brings up this POV again. But of course most of the sportswriters talking to him are buying into the same crap or don't remember things like that.

    2007-09-24 09:18:17
    596.   jasonungar07
    590 Exactly Paul. He has been selling it from the start. I belive TJ is involved because they WANT him to be.
    2007-09-24 09:23:01
    597.   Ricardo
    594. When Lowe starts players like Sweeney, Saenz, Martinez, Gonzo, Kent, Lieberthal, Pierre and Garciaparra should be in the lineup. I´m sure he´d change his mind about the young players.
    2007-09-24 09:25:23
    598.   Jon Weisman
    594 - There is also an incorrect assumption that the next kid will be just as good. If that were true, the Dodgers would have Pedro Martinez clones in place of Lowe in their rotation.
    2007-09-24 09:25:30
    599.   Bumsrap
    Sportswritters: They rarely look a gift horse in the mouth.

    Players, GMs, Managers: Don't quarrel with those that buy their ink by the barrel.

    Two cliches in one post. How cute.

    2007-09-24 09:27:03
    600.   kinbote
    to quote mercer mayer: "What a mess!"

    so what can we get for a nomar/furcal/kent/lowe package anyway?

    Show/Hide Comments 601-650
    2007-09-24 09:27:19
    601.   Bumsrap
    Where is Joey Thruston when you need him?
    2007-09-24 09:28:21
    602.   Bluebleeder87
    and four years from now, you will probably have a kid just as good as the one you got rid of."

    I was taken back by that one, It's pretty incredible that 2 or 3 prospects work out but we have at least 4 youth that can really pan out it's not always like that & Lowe makes it seem like Logan White can you just make them appear magically, It doesn't work that easy Lowe.

    2007-09-24 09:29:13
    603.   Jon Weisman
    New post up top.
    2007-09-24 09:29:34
    604.   Daniel Zappala
    Just be glad you aren't seeing any quotes from Pierre about playing the younger guys, because that would drive you guys insane.
    2007-09-24 09:32:20
    605.   screwballin
    582 Please. We're talking about two guys who will be gone anyway after 2008.

    It was actually the "DFA every other vet" suggestion I was reacting to. That'd be a lot more than two.

    2007-09-24 09:51:14
    606.   underdog
    600 I dunno if I'm ready to lump Furcal in with the other guys, or give him away. He had an injury-slowed year but when he's healthy he's one of the best shortstops in baseball, on defense and offense. I'd want him back next year.
    2007-09-24 11:13:39
    607.   Ken Noe
    605 Nomar, Gonzo, Hillenbrand, Sweeney, Martinez, Hernandez, Lieberthal, Seanez, Loaiza, Wells, Hendrickson--which ones do we need to keep?
    2007-09-24 14:38:01
    608.   Andrew Shimmin
    Nobody will ever see this, but, tip of the cap to 570 .

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