Unless, of course, Andruw gets a day off tomorrow, in which case the argument is moot.

An example of a blogger seeing the forest instead of the trees is the Kemp versus Pierre battle for playing time.

Torre and Colletti and the Plashke's can't see the forrest because of the trees. They are in the middle of the forrest. Someone has to climb to the top of the tallest tree and see a path to success. That is sometimes the role of the blogger.

russell gets more opportunities to work himself out of a slump because the alternative is (gulp) gary bennett. for better or worse, the outfield is crowded - let's see who rises to the top. does anyone care to speculate on chan ho's role now that his vegas contract got bought out?

From Ken Gurnick http://tinyurl.com/4p3uoa

> "He had pretty good at-bats, but at people," said Torre of Pierre. "I'm thinking about [starting Pierre]. Haren is pretty tough. I may do that."

> Pierre is 2-for-4 lifetime against Haren, and Kemp has never faced the right-hander. Torre said that even if Pierre starts, he isn't sure whether to bat him at leadoff, as he did on Sunday, or move him down in the order, as he did in Pierre's other two starts.

> "I may take a different look," he said. "When you're not scoring, you do things to try to change things up. Obviously, it didn't have a big effect today. Overall, I like [Rafael Furcal] in the leadoff spot. When he's batting second, he doesn't know where he's hitting. He gives the same at-bats."

1

Maybe he should; but his defense in center field is terrific so far. In a place like the ol BOB where the ball jumps off the bat, Druw's footwork will be most appreciated.

5 That's for sure.

Don't count on Jones getting too many days off

He has started no less than 152 games since he became a regular player.

4

I can understand why Torre thought those were good ABs. But, they are exactly why Pierre should not be playing. He got good wood on the ball each time, hitting the ball about as hard as he can in the air. And each time the outfielder barely had to move from their shallow position to catch the ball. The thing is, Pierre can't be successful when hitting the ball in the air (unless a line drive). He gets no respect and the outfield is at little league distance. So really, we have a hitter who doesn't hit the ball on the ground who can only succeed when hitting the ball on the ground. And because Torre doesnt really know much about Pierre other than "200 hits, 100 runs, .300 average", he's going to keep playing him at the expense of the ballclub and the development of a guy with superstar potential.

Sorry if this has already come up, but was Torre just asleep at the wheel when Iguchi was hit by Martin's throw? Its early, but we have some very disturbing trends forming with Torre. It's pretty tough to hear the SD announcers saying "wow- we really got away with one there" and not see Torre in the field disputing the call... I mean, let's face it- in the early innings there isn't much for a manager to do... When a runner gets hit by a ball thrown by a catcher the natural reaction is to wonder if he was in the basebpath. No?

7
Yeah, why would Torre want to drag Jones into this mess? Torre already has Pierre's agent and Colletti on his tail.
8
Great post, right on spot.
Really, what's the difference in the net result when Pierre pops out to shallow left field or Kemp strikes out when runners are on base? The runners don't advance and an out is recorded.
When Kemp swings the bat, there is at least the possibility that the ball will be traveling past the defense, not to it.

Meh!

Re Kemp vs.Pierre: Do you think someone got to Torre?

I remember seeing a 19 year old lean mean Andruw Jones hit two World Series home runs against the Yankees.

This year when I heard a 31 year old Jones was taking a short but pricey contract with the Dodgers to proove himself I said what a deal. Then he reported looking like the Pillsbury Dough Boy. I am worried. Is anyone else yet.

10 Wondered the same thing myself when it happened, though I didn't have the Padre announcers to listen to. Vin didn't make mention of it even though the replay cleary showed Taguchi on the infield grass.

Then again, yesterday Torre nailed the dugout foul call.

*clearly

*clearly

5 Yes, he's been great in CF, despite that miscommunication between him and Ethier the other day (What was going on there anyway?) But I'm a little worried at his lack of power/contact overall - 3 Ks today even. And he does look big, but somehow manages make difficult plays in the outfield.

Kemp looked more like a deer in the headlights on that last atbat rather than a Bison. Frozen venison.

Hu has definitely been a pleasant surprise for us. I hope Ned doesn't try to flip him him to another team when his stock gets higher.

Comparing W/L records this early in the season shouldnt be a huge deal. Whether the Dodgers were 6-0, 0-6 (like the Tigers), or somewhere in between--the real substance is looking at what is going on during the game:

The most important thing to look for early in the season IMO is managerial decision making/trends.

The Kemp/Pierre thing will no doubt hurt the team in the long run. Torre benching Kemp against tough pitchers is disturbing. How will Kemp learn how to hit tough pitching if he's never exposed to it? And whats worse---benching him for Juan Pierre?

Also, if Martin doesnt get a day off in the Arizona series--thats also a red flag. I figured he'd get sunday off, but he was in there again.

Lastly, Torre thought Pierre had good Abs? Whats he looking at? He's either hit lazy fly balls or grounders. He wont take a walk. He's putrid in comparison to Kemp.

From the 1st week:

Good:Dewitt's patience, starting pitching, Ethier's continued his good spring.

Bad--Pierre over Kemp, Andruw/Russ at the plate (its only the 1st week though..no need to be too upset).

When you're not scoring, you do things to try to change things up.

FJM would have a field day with that quote.
One suggestion: When you arent scoring runs, you dont start Juan Pierre thinking that will fix things.

If I remember correctly (from last year) Russell Martin said when he is tired he tends to try & pull everything (subconsiously I guess) & gets into that funk he is in right now, I'm hoping he's watching video from last year when he was hitting the ball hard everywhere.

another thing I wanna mention is that we're facing SOME REALLY TOUGH PITCHERS, & tomorrow won't be a walk in the park with Haren pitching for the Snakes.

Re: Martin tired?
The Dodgers have only played six games and they had a day off on Thursday.
How many games did Martin play in last year?
The kid wants to play. The pitchers are doing fantastic. The defense is great.

I don't want to see Bennett. When he's warming up the pitchers, he lobs the ball back to them.

Your probably right 68elcamino427, but he does seem a little off balance/lost at the plate at the early going.

Comment number 208 is (I think; it fits with my recollection, but I can't prove it) the last Steve comment, ever.

http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/608530.html#comments

Will Steve come back if/when Juan Pierre leaves?

Just letting you know that someone out here is listening.

Idiot.

He hit .382 last September. Come on it's not like he forgot how to hit..He can't hit good pitching, what the heck? Your manager thinks (or implied so publicly), after 6 games he cant hit good pitchers? That's great for the confidence.

Larry Bowa is an idiot. So is Joe Torre.

22 My 25th birthday! And it was a very nice comment on his part.

Ken Levine is an idiot.

Well I don't know, but somebody had to say it.

But it's never to early to watch videos & study your swing right 68elcamino...

what's happening on dodger talk?

28- It really makes me miss Bob Harvey. Levine and the other guy are smug homers who remind me the the out of town broadcasters who we feel so fortunate not to have.

As for Pierre, I can't read minds but I would be surprised if Torre really thinks that Pierre had a good game, Pierre has been horrible, anyone can see that, they pitched around a pich hitter to face him! there could be many reasons that Torre is starting Pierre, I doubt that the reason he gave to the press is the one.

I have to agree with that 31 for my sanity. There has to be more to all this.

This time Jon did get to give his opinions about Juan Pierre (Kemp should be given the chance to play since he is the better player), Larry Bowa (kind of ridiculous), working the counts (good especially in the NL West divisional games).

It was less about blogging more about the Dodgers this time.

30 Jon was just on with Ken Levine and he kept saying that whenever he has him on somebody makes a comment on DT that "Ken is an idiot." I figured I might as well.

But anyways, it was a good interview.

I tried very hard to avoid Yankee news overload as much as possible over past decade so I don't pretend to know Torre's style in depth.

I do fear that Torre has made questionable, LONG-TERM lineup decisions in the past. Bernie Williams was putrid and he played forever.

11

I for one am worried. Like I've said before in the Spring, Jones looks horrible. He looks slow to me (especially in person), so I worry a bit about his range in CF. Don't see how he is going to get another gold glove. At the plate, he has been bad to say the least. I am now thinking that we might be lucky to get a 222 average with 26 dongs out of him this year, but hey it is only the first week, so hopefully I am way off.

Ethier is looking more and more like an every day player, so if Pierre is going to get starts it may come at Kemp's expense unless he can get hitting soon. Right now we only have 1 OFer who looks in sync (we thought we may have 4). Like I said it is early so let hope some of these trends don't continue.

25

To be fair to Kemp, its only 16 at bats, or the equivalent of 4 games. The whole scenario is just frustrating and it is completely avoidable.

There has been talk about playing Pierre just to showcase him for a trade of some kind

Ken Levine is not an idiot. There - I said it :)

36 I think Andruw Jones will win the Gold Glove because he is Andruw Jones.

39 If only I knew what you guys were talking about. Long-distance-fan-being is not all it's cracked up to be.

40 made it sound like I was unhappy with his defense. Quite to the contrary, I have really enjoyed watching him play out there.

38

If thats true, Coletti is a bigger fool than i thought. Everyone knows what Juan Pierre can do. He has a track record of doing the same thing for the last 4 years. There is no reason to hurt your ballclub in order to showcase a "proven veteran" to the rest of the league.

38 There's no need to showcase Pierre at this point. He has a body of work for anyone to see. If you like what he does, you'll trade for him (or in Ned's case, sign him for 5 years).

Or what 42 said.

I actually thought Torre managed the game very well today, especially the pitching. I am pretty happy with his managing so far. I am still less concerned over JP. The whole thing with Pierre may be over reaction. Torre might be trying to build a fire under Kemp, or pump up JP's sale value. .91 BA won't even get us a corn dog though. Honestly, Kemp should be taking a couple hundred extra cuts in BP EVERY day until he gets it figured out, or work with Easler one on one or whatever it takes. This is the bigs and you don't hold back. Jones concerns me too.

I wish Juan Pierre just quit playing. You know, like Steely Dan after the "Pretzel Logic" tour.

Neddy (Rikki) needs to lose that (Juan Pierre's agent) number.

46 Perfect.

Pierre is like some weird fungus that's attached itself to the lineup and won't go away. Our pitching and defense look better this year, and we may be able to work around him for a while. But if, in the long run, he ends up with more at-bats than Matt Kemp, the Dodgers will be the laughingstock of baseball.

I have seen several readers alude to the possiblity that Torre may be "showcasing" Pierre for a trade, and I must ask why anyone thinks Pierre value has risen in the past week... past month... or past year? Oh and as for Torre well, "meet the new boss"

Since the same Kemp nonsense has happened under both Little and Torre, I have come to think that this may be Colletti's doing. Someone in management obviously has issues with Kemp, because they have spent the past two seasons pulling him out of the line-up the first chance they get, and now he seems to have fallen behind Pierre and Ethier on the depth chart. If they are going to continue on in this manner, why don't they just trade Kemp already?

If you look at Jones' at bats, his bat isn't slow, his weight isn't an issue...he's simply pulling outside pitches. Means weak grounders to short whether you're Jones or a little leaguer. He's just a tad bit out in front right now.

I'm not worried long-term about it unless he doesn't listen to the hitting coach who I'm sure has/will point it out soon.

Torre can't call Kemp the starter when Pierre will have started the majority of the games tomorrow. He's done nothing to show he deserves it. It would be one thing if he was playing his normal below average game but he hasn't even done that so far.

what's really a bummer is that when laws of average catch up and Pierre does dump a few hits in a game, he'll then be given a few more starts right after that.

I was also thinking about this--has Pierre sat since his agent complained to Colletti?

38 Isn't the talk of showcasing JP based on comments from this site? The thing that I still don't get about JP today, even though Kemp is still slumping he is a power threat, just as Jones is even though is also slumping. With Hu and DeWitt being lighter hitters and for right now at least we are not expecting volume home run production from them, this would have been the day against a "tough righty" to play a slumping Kemp. I wonder how much the agent's call to Ned added to JP's playing time this weekend!

53

I hate that, also. You know that if Juan bunts for a hit and bloops one in tomorrow, steals a base, and scores a run that he will earn more playing time. It stinks that i feel like I have to root against a Dodger so that the best players will get to play. It's sort of like Pierre watching is now a game within the game. You first ask, "How'd the Dodgers do?" The next question is "Did Pierre do anything worthwhile? Please tell me no."

48 In fairness to the Dodgers, I think the Reds have set out to be the laughingstock of baseball this year. They are playing Patterson and Hatteberg over Bruce and Votto so far. What makes it worse is that they traded away Hamilton to play Bruce. This would be like if we traded away Kemp to play Ethier and now we were sitting Ethier on the bench to play Repko. However, I think the Dodgers are on the verge of being a strong number two laughingstock. They may possibly be sitting their best player on the bench for half the season. I don't know if any team has ever done that before without an injury being involved.

29
Bluebleeder87
Yes, look at that good stuff every day.

Martin had a Martin-type day today.
On Offense:
AB-2 R-1 H-1 RBI-1 BB-2

On Defense:
Starting Pitcher: 6-INN 2-ER
Four Relief Pitchers: No Runs Scored

Look for Martin to have great games in Phoenix:)

9 Yah, I mentioned that during the game thread. Wondered about that also, seemed pretty clear he was out of the base path and they had a good case if they argued it. (Which seems especially clear since even the Padres announcer brought it up.)

Ah well. I do have to say, the more Pierre plays over Kemp the more I'm gonna gnash my teeth. As I said earlier, I think everything and everyone now involved with the team deserves some patience and time before everything is assumed, interpreted and projected. And Kemp clearly has some work to do. But they need to let him do that in games at this point. If they are showcasing Pierre for a trade, well, I hope they are, but he's not doing much to excite any potential suitors. I also wasn't expecting much from tomorrow's match up no matter who was in the line-up. It sure would help if they could face a pitcher who was less than superb for once.

Kemp has really looked bad at the plate so far this season. He's shown that he's a streaky hitter. As soon as he has a good game and belts a couple of balls out of the park, he'll be the regular right fielder.

I doubt an agent calling had anything to do with Pierre's playing time this weekend.

Btw, it may have been mentioned earlier, but how about old friend Tomko pitching five shutout innings versus the Twins today. A nice outing - just to tease the Royals into thinking he'll be like that the rest of the year, poor things.

Could it be that Kemp is out for three games because: (1) he's slumping and isn't getting good swings in his at bats, (2) Mr. "Dirt on the Hand," Young, and Haren are tough pitchers, and (3) Torre realizes that any young player might have a hard time getting out of a slump against those three.

Pierre is playing because (1) he has more experience hitting poorly, so he will better be able to handle slumping against the big three, (2) it's not as important to the team for Pierre to get out of his slump, and (3) "OK, so you're going whine about not playing? Fine! Let's see how you do against three of the toughest pitchers around.

Of course, that's not what Torre's going to say. It's better to make Pierre believe he's getting a chance to play, rather than being made a sacrificial lamb to good pitchers.

Just playing devil's advocate here. When Pierre plays over Kemp for a week -- then I panic.

Well, on the positive side, Ethier is looking very sweet.

The thing is, it doesn't matter why Pierre is playing over Kemp. Whether its because they are showcasing him, because they think he's better than Kemp, or because Torre's stuffed pink bunny holding a carrot that he got from his niece on Easter told him to play Pierre is irrelevant. The fact is each game Pierre plays instead of Kemp we are a worse team. This eventually will lead to more losses and losses in April count just the same as losses in September.

"When Pierre plays over Kemp for a week -- then I panic."

After tomorrow's game, only four days to go until panic sets in.

The optimist in me likes to believe that Kemp will be back in the lineup when the pitchers are a little bit easier than what we're facing now, during Kemp's benching. Yes, panic could set in in four days, but I'll start getting antsy on Wednesday if Kemp isn't in the lineup.

64 Ethier always looks very sweet ... oh, you're talking about his ballplaying ... (sorry, guys, couldn't resist -- I hope I didn't just lose all credibility)

What about starting D. Young?

What makes the OF situation hard to deal with is that during spring training, we all expected Pierre to be the starter, but at the expense of Ethier. Then, the season begins, and Torre declares Pierre a bench player, and punctuates that by ending his consecutive game streak on opening day. At that point, we're all thinking that we finally have the Ethier-Jones-Kemp OF we all wanted. And now, less than a week later, everything seems to have been turned upside down. Very hard to deal with, or even understand.

The optimist in me likes to believe that Kemp will be back in the lineup when the pitchers are a little bit easier

So, that means, assuming we get to the playoffs, that Pierre starts because he's a better option against "tough" pitchers?

I like it. Torre said you have to try something different when there's no offense.

Or if he wants something truly radical, that he hasn't tried yet, how about a set lineup with Kemp, Ethier, and Jones in there every day?

I'm going to piss Underdog, and maybe Jon off here.

Hudsucker Proxy is on now, and I have to say, (in my opinion) Jennifer Jason Leigh may have given the worst performance ever on screen. Wow, if she had only not tried to be Kathryn Hepburn, it may have been watchable.

Every other Dodger except Pierre that has started more than 1 game has walked at least twice and only Loney is averaging less pitches per PA (3.5 to 3.75), all other players that have started more than once (which is basically the other main 8 guys except for Hu who started today instead of Kemp and yes that includes Pierre) is averaging better than 4 pitches per PA.

Its only a week but last year the only player on the team with over 150 PA that average better than 4 pitches per PA was Wilson Betemit.

65 Hey, man, don't go dissing the pink bunny. It knows things.

71 No, Kemp won't be slumping in the playoffs. The thought is to let him get his swing back against easier pitching.

By the way, I by no means am advocating playing Pierre over Kemp -- ever -- I'm just trying to point out that there may be more to Torre's thinking than an incidious plan to make Pierre a starter.

Hey, so Hu won the game for us?

(sorry, I had to get that one out there)

The only optimistic view is that the Dodgers are trying to trade Pierre and thus are trying to showcase him. Short-term loss for long-term gain.

74 How did Torre and Easler do it???

It all comes down to How do you get your swing back on the bench

76 That's "insidious." And when I think of insidious, I think of dementia. And when I think of dementia, I think of Larry Bowa. That man so crazy. We might as well have Frank Costanza as our 3rd base coach - "You want a piece of me? You got it!"

80 - Attitude.

http://tinyurl.com/3g7o2c

Sorry if this has come up before, but Sweeney this weekend was quoted as saying that Pierre has the potential to be a good pinchhitter because he knows how to shorten his stroke and make contact. So the second half of that sounds like garbage, but the first half might not be so far off. I'm not convinced that the best Dodger team is one without Pierre. He does have value: as a pinch runner, as a pinch hitter in situations where making contact and staying out of the DP are crucial, as a fourth or fifth outfielder. I don't buy the argument that Pierre must be traded because the manager cannot resist the temptation to play him. If, on the other hand, the Dodgers were to get a few decent prospects for him ...

81 Thanks for the correction -- that's what I get for not having spellcheck in front of me.

As for Bowa -- it was at least entertaining, particularly when the crowd started chanting "Larry, Larry."

we have to be pretty excited about a 4-2 start when four of the six we faced Cain, Lincecum, Peavy, and Young. A win tomorrow against Haren would be huge.

I guess the point of having Kemp sit against these ace pitchers is to let him get his swing back against lesser pitching as some of you mentioned.

While I guess I understand Torre's logic, it just doesn't make sense to replace him with Pierre. If Pierre is starting again against Davis then we know we'll have a problem.

We're 4-2 while facing some awesome pitching...there's reason to feel good about this team so far.

Now Jones on the other hand...he's the biggest worry to me....

Some potentially good news (down the road at least) for anyone affected by MLB's annoying TV blackout policies:

http://tinyurl.com/3s99a5

73 Hah hah. That's okay, while I like her performance better than you, a) I think it's an acquired taste (i.e., it's grown on me), and b) can understand how it could be just found annoying. I just think of it as a great Stanwyck-meets-Hepburn impression and it fits in with the whole breakneck speed, screwball comedy feel. But can appreciate how not everyone would feel that way.

86 Good--I hope.

I don't really think Joe will throw Loiaza and JP against Haren. That would be suicide.