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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Navarro and Aybar Climb Back
2008-06-08 15:25
by Jon Weisman

I've been meaning for a while to write about Dioner Navarro. The former Dodger catcher, who went with Jae Seo to Tampa Bay in the June 2006 Mark Hendrickson/Toby Hall trade, has suffered through some rough times - the least of which was the 70 OPS+ he posted for the then-Deviled Rays last season.

In September 2003, his wife suffered a brain aneurysm and nearly died. In July 2006, his SUV flipped with him, his wife and infant son inside. (Everyone, amazingly, was okay.)

On the field, in May 2006 he went on the disabled list and lost his starting Dodger catcher job to Russell Martin. And this past April, Navarro suffered lacerations on this throwing hand.

Now, Navarro and his family all seem healthy - and so is Navarro's bat. In 152 plate appearances this season, his OPS+ is 117 (.364 on-base percentage, .427 slugging percentage). He has thrown out 9 of 29 attempted basestealers.

"The people around me have helped me tremendously," he told Brittany Ghiroli of "They [coaches and teammates] always knew that I was capable of doing this, but having them [work with me] has helped my game so much."

Things are going so well, Navarro wasn't even suspended despite being involved in last week's Rays-Red Sox brawl.

Then there's Aybar, who was traded by the Dodgers to Atlanta for Wilson Betemit in 2006. A substance abuse problem was revealed in the spring of 2007, and then in February, Aybar was arrested in the Dominican Republic on domestic violence charges that were later dropped.

Of course, this is very often not the end of a domestic violence story, and I haven't found anything to indicate what kind of counseling or treatment Aybar is receiving. All I can report is that Aybar is now a Ray, and after recovering from a left hamstring injury that hastened his replacement at third base by Evan Longoria, Aybar is 12 for 41 with six doubles and a homer (132 OPS+) while playing some third, first and designated hitter.

* * *

Lakers-Celtics Game 2 chat is at The Griddle.

* * *

Cubs at Dodgers, 5:05 p.m.

Comments (463)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-06-08 15:35:13
1.   Bluebleeder87
Very happy for Navarro & hoping Aybar gets things straitened out.
2008-06-08 15:36:36
2.   Bluebleeder87
I also wanna take this time to congratulate Jon's alma matter for making it to the CWS.
2008-06-08 15:38:42
3.   Bob Timmermann
NBA Finals chat here:
2008-06-08 15:50:30
4.   Bluebleeder87
I know NOT basketball.

but I'll give it a shot.

2008-06-08 15:55:19
5.   Bluebleeder87
watching the Irvine versus LSU college game, man, the Irvine pitcher can't find the zone all of a sudden.

walks in one runner 7-5 now WITH NO OUTS.

2008-06-08 15:57:00
6.   Bob Timmermann
7-6 with one out! LSU is facing elimination.
2008-06-08 15:58:10
7.   Bob Timmermann
Tied up in Baton Rouge.
2008-06-08 15:59:47
8.   Bob Timmermann
Time for a new pitcher Irvine.
2008-06-08 16:00:21
9.   bigcpa
Today is the anniversary of Kemp getting called up to stay after his overlong stay in Vegas. Tuesday is the same anniversary for Loney. Fingers crossed for LaRoche to get the promo and stay here.
2008-06-08 16:00:42
10.   Bluebleeder87
The electricity in that stadium is rejuvenating.
2008-06-08 16:03:22
11.   Bob Timmermann
And I have finished the NYT crossword and with that I will get ready to make the long trek to Dodger Stadium.
2008-06-08 16:05:12
12.   Bob Hendley
4 - Bleeder, I see that you actually gave it a three-point shot.
2008-06-08 16:05:55
13.   Bob Hendley
9 - Here, here!
2008-06-08 16:08:16
14.   Bob Timmermann
Irvine's CF channeling the spirit of Juan Pierre on his throw home.
2008-06-08 16:12:11
15.   Bluebleeder87
yeah, that throw wasn't anything to write home about.
2008-06-08 16:15:02
16.   Bob Timmermann
The LSU LF is now extremely dirty.
2008-06-08 16:15:42
17.   JoeyP
Billy Wagner implodes.
Padres looking for their 5th straight.
2008-06-08 16:18:12
18.   Bluebleeder87
you know what though IMO he just timed it perfectly it really wasn't that good of a catch.

Runner at 2nd with only 1 out 9-7 LSU.

2008-06-08 16:19:29
19.   Bluebleeder87
WOW, LSU showing some resolve.
2008-06-08 16:20:30
20.   Bluebleeder87
So is the Standford Cardinal the stud team this year or what?
2008-06-08 16:23:43
21.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Jon, I hate to bring this to your attention, as it puts a damper on a heartwarming story, but Dioner fought with a teammate today.
Apparently, Navarro and pitcher Matt Garza had a heated conversation on the mound and later in the dugout it got physical.
2008-06-08 16:24:14
22.   Bluebleeder87
Personally I don't indorce the dog pile, you just can't breath when your way down in the bottom of it.
2008-06-08 16:43:40
23.   68elcamino427
Billy Jack and the Trash Can

Starring Jeff Kent as Billy Jack

Also Starring:

Larry Bowa

Mark Sweeney

and Special Guest Appearance by - Ken Rosenthal

Outnumbered and the only voice of reason, Billy Jack schools the ignorant kids in the Dodgers Clubhouse and saves a franchise on the brink.

2008-06-08 16:47:24
24.   D4P
Amusing Angel stats:

Hunter: .273/.340/.449/.789
Guerrero: .254/.319/.437/.756
Matthews: .234/.312/.355/.667

2008-06-08 16:56:52
25.   D4P
I think I just saw that Sweeney's gonna have knee surgery and miss 4-6 weeks.
2008-06-08 17:01:17
26.   D4P
Jon and Joe!
2008-06-08 17:02:35
27.   Megaballs
(25) You're pulling my leg.
2008-06-08 17:03:46
28.   Bob Hendley
23 - Perfecto!
2008-06-08 17:03:58
29.   MonkeyBlue
We have the starting lineup yet?
2008-06-08 17:04:25
30.   D4P
Oops: turns out it's Mike Sweeney. I knew I saw Sweeney go across the page, but I didn't see the first name.
2008-06-08 17:04:36
31.   Megaballs
(25) Oakland's Sweeney, not ours.
2008-06-08 17:07:56
32.   Bob Hendley
26 - I have me beloved Mexican announcers. I don't think that this is just some guys sitting in a studio either (so I can't change the idioma on the tube). They actually have a one of those roaming announcers. They tend to pretty much stick to the action on the field and don't do much musing,
2008-06-08 17:09:14
33.   Bob Timmermann
Angel Berroa's name during the lineups was greeted with an "excess of befuddlement."
2008-06-08 17:10:02
34.   Bluebleeder87
I have to admit, I get my Sweeney's wrong also.
2008-06-08 17:11:15
35.   Bob Hendley
{32] - Actually they sound like Dominicans.
2008-06-08 17:13:11
36.   Bob Hendley
2008-06-08 17:13:18
37.   Bob Timmermann
I've worked so hard to avoid Sweeney confusion this year.


2008-06-08 17:15:09
38.   Bob Timmermann
Ouch again
2008-06-08 17:15:37
39.   Bluebleeder87
in the early going it doesn't look like he's fooling anybody so I wouldn't mind a Kuo sighting.
2008-06-08 17:16:12
40.   Bob Hendley
One of the announcers is Candy Maldonado. He says that he was asking around the club house about Penny this year and the guys were telling him that he has not been agressive enough and has been nibbling. And that he has a knee problem.
2008-06-08 17:19:03
41.   Bluebleeder87
attack this dude with Pure heat man...
2008-06-08 17:19:28
42.   Bob Timmermann
Did you get the "no no no no no" home run call?
2008-06-08 17:20:35
43.   Bluebleeder87

does he have a golf size ball in his knee?

2008-06-08 17:20:58
44.   MMSMikey
i think pennys biggest problem is he doesnt have good secondary pitches, his curveball is average, and his splitter is below average, most times it looks like hes just throwing a fastball straight into the ground when he throws his splitter. But, he never really has had good secondary pitches, the reason why he had so much success the last 2 years was he was able to locate his 95 mph fastballs on both sides of the plate on the corners, this year he doesnt have command of the fastball, like that 3-1 pitch to derosa.
2008-06-08 17:21:05
45.   Bob Hendley
They are saying that the Cubs despite leading the league in hitting, they are last in RISP with two outs, hitting around .200. And then the fellow proceeds to ground out.
2008-06-08 17:22:13
46.   Bob Hendley
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. {sigh}
2008-06-08 17:23:23
47.   Bob Hendley
with "retira la pelota".
2008-06-08 17:23:28
48.   Bluebleeder87
ever since I found out Ethier had a restaurant review blog my eyes tend to look at his stomach.
2008-06-08 17:23:47
49.   D4P
Marquis is a scrub. Dodgers should score some runs tonight.
2008-06-08 17:26:05
50.   68elcamino427
Is Ethier getting his leads from Penny?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-06-08 17:26:33
51.   Bluebleeder87
I hate to admit this but Dodger Stadium looks marvelous with that ESPN HD thing. wow.
2008-06-08 17:26:33
52.   D4P
Havoc is being wreaked.
2008-06-08 17:27:01
53.   underdog
Did anyone else think Penny's stuff looked a lot better after he got hit in the foot? I swear he pitched better after that. Maybe he should get hit in the foot more often. We'll see how he does next inning and thereafter of course.
2008-06-08 17:28:21
54.   underdog
Oh god, shut up, Morgan.

Veteran players grumble mumble yadda yadda..

2008-06-08 17:28:38
55.   68elcamino427
Dodger Stadium is the most beautiful baseball stadium in the world.
2008-06-08 17:29:48
56.   D4P
Situational hitting!
2008-06-08 17:30:27
57.   Bluebleeder87
what the hell??? who is that...
2008-06-08 17:30:42
58.   bhsportsguy
54 But he is right.
2008-06-08 17:30:53
59.   68elcamino427
Actually, Kent knows that ball is supposed to be hit on the ground to the second baseman, not the shortstop.
2008-06-08 17:31:13
60.   Icaros
Muscle kinda looks like Piazza with that mustache.
2008-06-08 17:32:03
61.   bhsportsguy
59 With the infield back, any ground ball to the middle of infield is going to score that run.
2008-06-08 17:32:42
62.   Bluebleeder87
Martin kind of looks like Roy Campanella with the stash.
2008-06-08 17:32:43
63.   imperabo
When did Russ join the cast of Reno 911?
2008-06-08 17:33:34
64.   underdog
58 = He was right, Ethier should've held up, that wasn't even a good pitch to hit. BUT why does it have to be a veteran player vs. a younger player thing, again? Ethier should know better, not because he's a rookie, which he isn't. Mostly I just wanted to tell Morgan to shut up.

Yeah, I was thinking Russell was half Kent, half Piazza with the stache, but I prefer to think Piazza.

2008-06-08 17:34:14
65.   El Lay Dave
61 Hmmm, I thought savvy vets try for the sac fly there.
2008-06-08 17:34:17
66.   underdog
Maybe Russell, giving a nod to jazz history, is calling back to Cab Calloway with the moustache.
2008-06-08 17:35:39
67.   Bluebleeder87
Matt Kemp has made some really encouraging strides in CF you gotta be encouraged by that if your upper management.
2008-06-08 17:37:59
68.   D4P
I thought savvy vets try for the sac fly there

I can see how you might be confused. But keep in mind that young players care about their stats, and veterans only care about winning. Ergo, young players want the sac fly (cause it won't count against them), while veterans prefer the Olney (as a means of demonstrating their selfless dedication to the team).

2008-06-08 17:39:00
69.   bhsportsguy
64 Well partly because it is that, I mean Ethier hasn't played 2 full years and he isn't batted 2nd much is in career. So he is not used to having a base stealer having to take a pitch now and then.
2008-06-08 17:39:10
70.   blutomania
Looks like Bad Penny.
2008-06-08 17:39:56
71.   El Lay Dave
Gammons just said that Penny had been battling some shoulder tendonitis up until two starts ago.
2008-06-08 17:41:11
72.   blutomania
I think it's stunning how local reporters can't get a story like that (shoulder tendoritis).

And they wonder why the LA Times sports section is so maligned.

2008-06-08 17:41:44
73.   Bob Timmermann
Just who was it on the Angels who disliked Edmonds and got him traded? Was it just about everybody?
2008-06-08 17:42:29
74.   Bob Hendley
Not too many like Junior in that spot.
2008-06-08 17:42:46
75.   underdog
71 - And the rest of Gammons anecdote there was kind of interesting too -- that Torre was getting frustrated with Penny, even watched a bullpen session and kind of yelled at him, wondered if his head was in the game, etc. I actually liked hearing that. Between his shoulder feeling better and Torre getting at Penny a bit maybe he'll turn the corner.
2008-06-08 17:42:55
76.   MonkeyBlue
Man, Penny won't even pass the 5th inning. The pitch count is already too high.
2008-06-08 17:43:15
77.   Bob Timmermann
How do we know Gammons is right?
2008-06-08 17:43:20
78.   Bob Hendley
74 - In reference to 69 .
2008-06-08 17:44:25
79.   underdog
77 - Because he's not Ken Rosenthal, at least. Or at least Gammons seems to actually talk to the real people involved whereas Rosenthal talks to imaginary characters.
2008-06-08 17:44:37
80.   Bluebleeder87

it's 1-1, what are you talking about? unless you want him to cough up strikes left & right.

2008-06-08 17:45:19
81.   Bob Hendley
77 - Candy says its the knee and its affecting his pushoff.
2008-06-08 17:46:24
82.   Bob Hendley
Looks more like gutty Penny.
2008-06-08 17:46:55
83.   Bob Timmermann
Again I ask.

How do we know Gammons is right?

Not being Ken Rosenthal doesn't guarantee truthfulness.

2008-06-08 17:47:51
84.   Bluebleeder87
to me he looks like the Penny that will give us a chance to win & that's all I can ask for.
2008-06-08 17:48:29
85.   Bob Hendley
Interview in Spanish with Mariano Duncan. He is saying nice things about the "muchachos".
2008-06-08 17:49:03
86.   underdog
83 - Because I just consulted the i-ching and it revealed that he was right.
2008-06-08 17:49:26
87.   Bluebleeder87
Gammons is WAY MORE likable then Rosenthal, that's why. I swear Gammons can pretty much say anything & I'd be cool with it.
2008-06-08 17:49:36
88.   Tom Meagher
Hearing Morgan and Miller go on and on about Penny and Joe Torre's handling thereof, I'd like to ask the community of Dodger Thoughts to come up with a consensus of how much credit/blame Joe Torre should get for how well Penny does from here on out. If anything, Torre's track record suggests that the way he handles "struggling" pitchers does not make them better, so I'm pretty dubious that getting all Big Brother on Penny's bullpen sessions is a surefire cure for what ails him. So, let's just agree in advance on what percentage of the credit Torre should get. Since we'll have no way to verify anybody's claims once we've seen the results, let's decide how much credit blame to give Torre.

What I'd like from everybody is a) their projection for Penny's ERA over the rest of the season assuming he had an average manager and b) what percentage of the credit Torre should get for the over- or under-performance. So, if you'll join me in this exercise, I'll try to tabulate the results. Then, when the inevitable news stories about Penny's struggles or lack thereof and whatever Torre's spin will be eventually come out, we can just ignore them. If I remember, we can then give out scores at the end of the season. I'll start:

A. 3.95
B. 7%

2008-06-08 17:49:58
89.   El Lay Dave
69 Has anyone ever studied the run expectancies between 75% basestealer on 1st, no outs, trying to steal; and staying on 1st with a LH hitter up. Doesn't the first baseman on the bag add to LH hitting success? Is it a small effect?
2008-06-08 17:50:00
90.   68elcamino427
At that time, the coaches on the team felt that Edmonds lacked intensity and that he "gave away" at bats late in games and that he wasn't a "team guy". Ha!
Was Collins the manager then?
2008-06-08 17:51:43
91.   Bob Hendley
Question: Who was the first Latin rookie to come up with the Dodgers?
2008-06-08 17:52:26
92.   El Lay Dave
83 I believe that Gammons said that "Penny told him ...". If so, I doubt Gammons makes up a story like that. Doesn't Rosenthal tend not to attribute things?
2008-06-08 17:52:26
93.   Bob Timmermann
86 - OK. That'll work for me.

But who does Gammons talk to about the Dodgers besides Torre? Gammons is a popular place to leak news. Or "information."

2008-06-08 17:53:09
94.   underdog
Heh. Joe Morgan looked so incredibly bored during that Jim McKay anecdote from Jon Miller it was almost painful. Surprised he didn't stifle yawn.
2008-06-08 17:53:55
95.   Bob Timmermann
The first Latin rookie with the Dodgers was Al Lopez I think.
2008-06-08 17:54:34
96.   D4P
Joe Morgan doesn't listen to baseball talk from people who never played the game.
2008-06-08 17:54:53
97.   68elcamino427
I think that Torre puts that kind of stuff out with a specific purpose in mind.
2008-06-08 17:55:23
98.   El Lay Dave
94 Joe should have loved McKay, a consistent veteran who cocetrated.
2008-06-08 17:55:39
99.   MonkeyBlue
Nice inning.
2008-06-08 17:56:14
100.   Bluebleeder87
Nice inning, I really think this upcoming inning will be very telling if he's good Penny bad Penny.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-06-08 17:57:42
101.   Bob Timmermann
Al Lopez broke in with Brooklyn in 1928.
2008-06-08 17:58:19
102.   blutomania
What a trippy little Gammons' segment that was.
2008-06-08 17:59:37
103.   Bob Hendley
95 - Nope. I don't know the answer myself, but it was presented as mutliple choice and that name was not on the list. I am keeping the list secret because I figure that it is to help the general audience and would not be needed by a group as storied as you DTs.
2008-06-08 17:59:50
104.   D4P
Hey, there's Ned!
2008-06-08 18:01:42
105.   Bob Timmermann
I'm wondering what the definition of "Latin" is. Al Lopez's family was from Cuba, although he was born in Florida.
2008-06-08 18:01:52
106.   underdog
Did you guys know that Dodger shortstops replacing Furcal have hit very poorly? In case you didn't, ESPN would like to tell you about six times.

That Peter Gammons report on the Dodgers struggles should have been accompanied by Adagio for Strings in the background.

2008-06-08 18:02:40
107.   Bluebleeder87
I'll be doing the back & forth thing also...
2008-06-08 18:02:54
108.   El Lay Dave
102 It was bizarre. With all that bluster, the simple logic wasn't completely connected. If the loss of Furcal is the single, largest cause of Dodger downturn, aren't there exactly two obvious things that happened after he went down? 1. Offensive black hole at SS (but in the 8 hole) 2. JP leading off every day.
2008-06-08 18:02:59
109.   underdog
Okay, I'm gonna have a hard time flipping channels between Lakers game and Dodgers, and typing here, so I'll check back with y'all later. Go LA!
2008-06-08 18:03:30
110.   Bob Hendley
101 - Ok, just in case they didn't specify the question correctly and are only thinking of LA, what is the answer?
2008-06-08 18:04:16
111.   El Lay Dave
Penny had 40 pitches through two and 17 in the third. That rate needs to come down; he needs some 1-2-3 innings.
2008-06-08 18:06:15
112.   Bob Timmermann
In LA? That would make less sense.

They don't want Sandy Amoros as the answer?

2008-06-08 18:06:43
113.   Blaine
Why do they start games at 5pm? So ESPN can broadcast it. That is the dumbest question of the night so far.
2008-06-08 18:07:38
114.   Bob Hendley
105 - Yeah, that's the problem, perhaps, he was born in Tampa. They must mean born in Latin America.
2008-06-08 18:07:48
115.   El Lay Dave
Walking Jim "sub.300 OBP" Edmunds twice doesn't help the pitch count.
2008-06-08 18:08:45
116.   scareduck
I haven't had much of a chance to check in here over the last couple days. Has there been a consensus on the wisdom of the Berroa trade? My own assumption is that it was yet another case of Proven Vetruhn Leadership outweighing Obvious Case Of Suck, but what do I know?
2008-06-08 18:09:08
117.   Bob Hendley
105 - OK, they coughed up the answer, so at least I know now.
2008-06-08 18:09:42
118.   Bob Timmermann
Is Luis Olmo one of the choices?
2008-06-08 18:11:16
119.   Bluebleeder87
Penny is gonna have around 80 pitches thru 4 I really hope he gets us thru the 5th & the bullpen dose what they do best
2008-06-08 18:12:08
120.   Bob Hendley
118 - Nope.
2008-06-08 18:14:50
121.   Bob Hendley
118 - Actually, when I saw the name, I realized that I had heard this before and on DT.
2008-06-08 18:15:01
122.   Bob Timmermann
Unless it's a player who played before Al Lopez, I refuse to acknowledge the question's legitimacy.
2008-06-08 18:17:05
123.   El Lay Dave
What is with Soriano's little bunny hop when he catches fly balls? Silly.
2008-06-08 18:17:06
124.   MonkeyBlue
How many times do I have to see a mediocre pitcher giving a Dodgers a hard time?
2008-06-08 18:19:18
125.   Bob Hendley
122 - Well, I guess that questioning the question is one way of answering it. Since all of the names on the list played in LA, I think the question is Latin American born with the LA Dodgers.
2008-06-08 18:22:07
126.   Bluebleeder87

so he's Cuban than right. That whole "latin" thing confuses me also, & I feel very strongly that it's one of those, what came first the chicken or the egg.

2008-06-08 18:22:40
127.   Bob Hendley
122 - By the way, when I went to look up Lopez, I was directed to the Robins and not the Dodgers. What's up with that? (this is a bonus question).
2008-06-08 18:24:06
128.   Tom Meagher
All right, if no one wants to take the 88 bait, anybody want to offer up what they think Furcal will hit over the rest of the season? Torre and every announcer has made him out to be Elvis. I've got him down for .285/.352/.415.
2008-06-08 18:24:12
129.   Bob Hendley
Yuck. Let's see how Torre handles Brad now. The old hook?
2008-06-08 18:24:19
130.   bhsportsguy
A classic Penny blowup inning, balls in play, getting hits in sequence.
2008-06-08 18:25:38
131.   Indiana Jon
128 .277/.328/.377
2008-06-08 18:25:41
132.   Bluebleeder87
Chan-Ho park makes his triumphant return to sunday night baseball brought to you by ESPN minus Tatis.
2008-06-08 18:26:36
133.   Bob Hendley
128 - With that, where would he end up for the season?
2008-06-08 18:26:45
134.   JoeyP
Has Berroa had a ball hit to him yet?
2008-06-08 18:26:46
135.   El Lay Dave
What is Fukudome staring at?
2008-06-08 18:28:08
136.   Bob Hendley
134 - The Cubs have decided to avoid hitting the balls to the Dodger players.
2008-06-08 18:28:47
137.   Bluebleeder87
I feel that if Penny keeps them at 3-1 we still have a good chance of making it a game.
2008-06-08 18:29:04
138.   Bob Hendley
134 - None that I recall. He is not even covering 2nd on the throws down.
2008-06-08 18:29:56
139.   Bluebleeder87
Soto keeps doing that thing were he thinks he got all of it but it lands right at a Dodger player.
2008-06-08 18:31:28
140.   El Lay Dave
22-pitch inning gets Penny to an even 100 through five. If the Dodgers don't get to his spot (due fifth) will Torre send him back out there for the 6th and hope he can finish in 15 pitches or so?
2008-06-08 18:32:11
141.   Bluebleeder87
ahhhh look how cute a Dodger Cub couple...
2008-06-08 18:32:56
142.   Bluebleeder87
Loney has a nice little 8 game hitting streak if I'm not mistaken.
2008-06-08 18:32:57
143.   nofatmike
141 Rob and Helen?
2008-06-08 18:33:48
144.   Gen3Blue
How many times have I watched the Dodgers lose while listening to Joe Morgan. It is almost as depressing as his voice.
2008-06-08 18:34:12
145.   Bluebleeder87
some might disagree but I feel Penny gave us a nice chance for the W.
2008-06-08 18:34:26
146.   D4P
Martin + Penny = Goatee
2008-06-08 18:34:27
147.   El Lay Dave
142 Yep, but only one game with more than one.
2008-06-08 18:34:27
148.   Bob Timmermann
So what was the iilegitimate answer?
2008-06-08 18:34:32
149.   Bob Hendley
126 - Not sure how this becomes a chicken and egg thing. Are you thinking because Spain used to own Florida?
2008-06-08 18:34:49
150.   MMSMikey
foul, of course.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-06-08 18:35:15
151.   Bob Hendley
148 - Giving up, eh?
2008-06-08 18:36:21
152.   fanerman
Why should be subject to the same black outs as TV?
2008-06-08 18:36:39
153.   El Lay Dave
145 If he comes out now, the middle relievers have to pitch two innings.
2008-06-08 18:36:40
154.   Bob Timmermann
I have no more psyhcic energy to expend on this traveshamocracy of a question.
2008-06-08 18:37:09
155.   fanerman
152 I ask more out of frustration than anything.
2008-06-08 18:38:01
156.   Bob Hendley
They have the Dodger Mexico scout in the booth. He's talking about the 17 year old RHP Javier Solano who the Bums bought the rights for from the Monterey Sultanes.
2008-06-08 18:38:36
157.   scareduck
145 - after going to two straight games at Chavez Ravine, we're at home watching the game on our #### Scientific Atlanta cable box that keeps locking up on us.
2008-06-08 18:39:15
158.   nofatmike
157 Well I was hopefull...
2008-06-08 18:39:57
159.   MMSMikey
i could swear thats alfredo griffin, and he looks a 100 years old.
2008-06-08 18:40:47
160.   Bob Hendley
154 - Now your making me feel like perhaps something was lost in the translation. When I tell you the answer, you are going to say that you knew all along and you are going to blame me.
2008-06-08 18:41:12
161.   jtrichey
Boy, I just love watching bad pitchers mow through our lineup!
2008-06-08 18:41:18
162.   JoeyP
Angel Berroa does look really really old.
2008-06-08 18:41:39
163.   D4P
I see that the Lakers have 10 fouls to the Celtics 5.
2008-06-08 18:41:48
164.   scareduck
This should provoke a lot of reaction. Not only is Angel Berroa not a major league hitter, he's not even league average at short defensively. Bob Schaefer supposedly suggested this; why isn't he fired?
2008-06-08 18:43:15
165.   MMSMikey
he seriously looks like hes 48 years old. what is ned doing up there. when can we get GM up there that knows what hes doing. ever?
2008-06-08 18:43:17
166.   Bob Hendley
162 - I noticed the same. He makes a lot of money, but toiling in the minors must get to you.
2008-06-08 18:43:22
167.   Bluebleeder87

I guess I'm confused. But this is how I feel about that whole thing, if:

player A was born in Ecuador then that makes him Ecuadorian

if player B was born in Peru then he is Peruvian, kind of like what Bob does when he goes to other parts of the country. If he goes to Boston he calls the natives Bostonians & so forth...

2008-06-08 18:44:08
168.   Bob Timmermann
I don't care. I pulled Al Lopez's name out of thin air and I wanted it to be right!
2008-06-08 18:44:24
169.   Bluebleeder87

I was gonna say, he kind of reminds me of the old school dominican players from back in the day.

2008-06-08 18:46:01
170.   JoeyP
Quality Start for Penny.
2008-06-08 18:46:27
171.   Bob Hendley
167 - And now I have Bleeder confused with the question. Let's forget the whole thing. Sorry, I was just trying to give a breather from Jon & Joe.
2008-06-08 18:46:41
172.   Bluebleeder87
o.k. so that was definitely Penny's last inning, so you bring in Pee-wee right.
2008-06-08 18:47:09
173.   Jon Weisman
164 - I've seen more than one person suggest that a fresh start could help Berroa regain his one-time (and I really mean one-time) form of five years ago. It's remarkable wishcasting.
2008-06-08 18:47:23
174.   Bob Hendley
168 - Al Lopez was a very good answer, just not to this question.
2008-06-08 18:48:20
175.   Bob Timmermann
When Al Lopez broke in, he had to prove that he was sufficiently "white" despite his Spanish surname. So discounting his background is not easy.
2008-06-08 18:48:44
176.   Bob Hendley
173 - That is pretty idiotic. Pee Wee time!
2008-06-08 18:49:35
177.   MMSMikey
the difference in marquis tonight hes facing a bad offensive team.
2008-06-08 18:49:55
178.   bhsportsguy
I don't understand the big deal, it cost the Dodgers nothing to get Berroa and he certainly can do no worse than other Dodger shortstops have for the last month.

Sometimes I swear people complain just to complain.

2008-06-08 18:51:02
179.   Bob Hendley
175 - I thought that the deal was you could "pass" if you were Cuban.
2008-06-08 18:51:26
180.   Jon Weisman
LaRoche feature.

2008-06-08 18:51:43
181.   Bob Hendley
Jeez, we are making this guy look better than he is. Come on Bums!
2008-06-08 18:53:21
182.   Bob Hendley
178 - I assume that Hu is not going anywhere until Furcal gets back. So why bring up this guy? That's the nature of my complaint.
2008-06-08 18:54:43
183.   Bob Timmermann
The Cubans who played in the majors prior to Jackie Robinsons were subjected to scrutiny about their ethnicity. Bob Estalella was a notable case.
2008-06-08 18:55:37
184.   Jon Weisman
178 - It's not a big deal, but by now you know everything in this forum gets analyzed over and over. If there were bigger news out there, we'd talk about it, but this is the news of the day.

Beyond that, "can do no worse" is never a very tantalizing argument for an acquisition, especially when the upside is so limited. There's a legit argument that Berroa's offense won't justify replacing Hu's defense, woeful as Hu's offense is.

I'm fine with Hu being sent down, but it's okay not to like the Berroa acquisition.

2008-06-08 18:56:00
185.   Bluebleeder87

I feel Bob H. complaint is a legitimate one, I mean for me I'd rather have Hu manning Short stop then somebody like Berroa who has no future as a Dodger, I would have stuck with our own, but the brain trust feels differently.

2008-06-08 18:56:14
186.   Jon Weisman
182 - It's pretty clear that as soon as Berroa shows he is ambulatory, Hu will be sent down.
2008-06-08 18:56:31
187.   Ken Noe
Berroa's age has been a question mark for some time. He initially claimed to be two years younger than the age he acknowledges now. As for "wishing" I've been astonished how Schaeffer, Ned, and Torre all admit that they made this deal without really knowing if the guy can still play. "We'll wait and see." I realize we didn't give up much, but come on, is this the sort of foresight that has so much money on the DL?
2008-06-08 18:56:48
188.   D4P
Ratio of Celtic free throws to Laker free throws:


2008-06-08 18:57:23
189.   fanerman
188 Are you sure you're commenting under the right post?
2008-06-08 18:59:04
190.   El Lay Dave
178 I think LA has to pay for the $0.5M buyout of his '09 option, but the financials on this deal have been murky.
2008-06-08 18:59:44
191.   ToyCannon
After you have watched Angel look just as bad as Hu at the plate and just as bad as Offerman in the field we'll see if it is no big deal.
If they want a temp SS then get a SS not a player who is so lousy he can't even get playing team on a team who until recently was starting a SS hitting 154. He was unable to crack a depth chart of Pena, German, and Aviles but here he is in DS starting for us.

You settle for less, you get less.

2008-06-08 18:59:44
192.   D4P
I got tired of talking to myself at the other place during game one. Plus, I'm not watching the game.
2008-06-08 18:59:58
193.   Bob Hendley
There you go Angel!
2008-06-08 18:59:59
194.   Gen3Blue
If things continue to go this poorly I will put this to Joe Morgan-- The Dodgers managed a split in this series with one of the hotter teams in baseball, even throwing one of their most unpredictable starters--- what do you think this portends? I would love to hear the response or answer, although I doubt I could understand it.
2008-06-08 19:00:30
195.   D4P
It seems like every close call at a base this series has gone the Dodgers's way.
2008-06-08 19:00:34
196.   Jon Weisman
Berroa has just initiated a double play! Well, really, Derrek Lee initiated it. Well, really, Chan Ho Park initiated it. Well, really, the powers that be for baseball that granted Park license to pitch initiated it. But still, congrats to Berroa!
2008-06-08 19:01:02
197.   bhsportsguy
187 Its the extreme example but no one knew what a guy out of baseball for drug additction could do either yet they gave yhim a 25 man roster spot last year.

Sports are filled with stories with guys who no one knew if they could play or not.

2008-06-08 19:01:04
198.   Bluebleeder87

It's like there saying, kid you ain't cutting it we're gonna have to get somebody else because WE DON'T TRUST YOU CAN TURN IT AROUND, I feel there sending the wrong message plus the dude was playing great defense, NedCo just isn't patient enough.

2008-06-08 19:01:21
199.   Jon Weisman
195 - That one, at least, seemed correct.
2008-06-08 19:01:54
200.   Jon Weisman
192 - If I were Fanerman or the others, I'd feel insulted!
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-06-08 19:02:17
201.   jtrichey
What was the answer to the dodger latin question already!?!
2008-06-08 19:03:42
202.   Bob Hendley
Time to put some runs on the board.
2008-06-08 19:04:35
203.   D4P
You know, even though it is disappointing that the Celtics will beat the Lakers in the finals, the fact that the Lakers ended up with the best record in the West and made it to the finals was quite an accomplishment. If Bynum can come back next year and pick up where he left off, they should be the favorites to win it all.
2008-06-08 19:04:41
204.   Bob Hendley
201 - I thought no one would ask. Hector Valle, Puerto Rico, 1965.
2008-06-08 19:05:37
205.   JoeyP
Joe Morgan is an idiot.
2008-06-08 19:05:42
206.   Ken Noe
197 I think Toy Cannon's points in 191 should have provided some indication of his current skills.
2008-06-08 19:05:50
207.   Bob Hendley
203 - No pony, eh?
2008-06-08 19:06:12
208.   Bluebleeder87
I think I've had a full stomach of this superhero business.
2008-06-08 19:07:07
209.   Bluebleeder87
we need to get some timely hits.
2008-06-08 19:07:18
210.   D4P
Man, I get tired of hearing people talk about "how the game should be played" or "how to play the game." Is there really that much room for variation in how to play?

When you're playing defense, field the ball and throw it to the proper place.

When you're on the bases, run hard at the appropriate times.

When you're at the plate, try to get on base.

When you're pitching, throw the pitch at the catcher's mit.

What is there to know?

2008-06-08 19:07:24
211.   jtrichey
so if that truly is what Kent is saying (I don't believe it is), then isn't it the coaches and the vets fault that the young players are so stupid?
2008-06-08 19:07:32
212.   LAT
This place is going to implode. Thanks Joe Morgan
2008-06-08 19:08:16
213.   jtrichey
I mean if none of the coaches are calling out the young players after a mistake, what the hell are they around for?
2008-06-08 19:08:42
214.   Bob Hendley
Given the alternative presented by Berroa, I'd rather see Hu struggle at the plate until Furcal gets back, just so we have his glove in there (I think that the pitchers would agree). I hope to be surprised.
2008-06-08 19:09:17
215.   fanerman
200 I'm more insulted by the refereeing.
2008-06-08 19:09:32
216.   Brent Knapp
Russell martin must have lost a bet with that mustouche. (Sp.?).
2008-06-08 19:10:03
217.   JoeyP
Can Gammons go one game without talking about the Red Sox?

It's like Dick Vitale with Duke

2008-06-08 19:10:41
218.   Bob Hendley
Here we go 3-0.
2008-06-08 19:11:03
219.   nick
you know, as rambling and content-free as this is, it's not, actually, a criticism of the young players: it sounds to me as if Gammons and Morgan are saying "these Dodger kids are no better or worse than any other kids; but unlike other kids they lack suitable veteran leadership"
2008-06-08 19:11:29
220.   Bob Hendley
Jeez, here comes Marmol.
2008-06-08 19:11:48
221.   jtrichey
Yes Troy Percival who sits in the bullpen the whole game is the one grabbing the young kids in the dugout explaining their mistakes for the Rays. That is why the Rays are so good this year, not Kazmir, Upton, Longoria, etc.
2008-06-08 19:12:34
222.   jtrichey
219 That's what I'm hearing, but they aren't really saying it succinctly.
2008-06-08 19:14:53
223.   Bob Timmermann
So regarding the Hector Valle question, how do you "arbitrary" in Spanish?
2008-06-08 19:15:41
224.   Bob Hendley
223 - No entiendo.
2008-06-08 19:16:05
225.   scareduck
178 - the big deal is Berroa's upside has come and gone. He has no value. Hu, at least, has some upside due to his age.
2008-06-08 19:17:04
226.   jtrichey
Gotta admit that has been the story for Kemp. Missed 2 hanging pitches in that at bat.
2008-06-08 19:18:08
227.   jtrichey
Say Dewitt walks. You have to pinch hit for Berroa right?
2008-06-08 19:18:25
228.   D4P
First half free throw attempts:

Boston: 19
LA: 2

2008-06-08 19:20:47
229.   Bob Timmermann
Nancy Bea Hefley lost track of the outs and started playing "Charge" after DeWitt's out.
2008-06-08 19:20:54
230.   fanerman
210 You only know how to learn to play the game the right way if you've played in the majors.
2008-06-08 19:21:30
231.   Bob Hendley
223 - If I had given it as a multiple choice it would have been too easy (for you). Vicente Romo, Victor Alvarez and Manny Mota were the others on the list.
2008-06-08 19:22:11
232.   ucladodger

That hanging slider was begging to be crushed. Thats the difference between the great players and the good ones. Must make pitchers pay for making bad pitches.


That game is a joke. Hard for the Lakers to do anything with that type of differential and with Boston hitting everything on the perimeter.

2008-06-08 19:23:36
233.   Louis in SF
I have respect for Gammons, but ironically his point was not just supporting Morgan, but he made the point of young players constantly coming up and yes than having the PVL's offer their experience and clubhouse info to help them along. Ironically while the Dodgers had an influx of young players last year, it has not been a steady flow of players.

The logical player to eventually do this is Martin. Anything about the Dodgers from Morgan always has to be taken with a grain of salt. However a nice clean extra base hit from one of our players with someone on would offer the most help in tonight's game as well as going forward. We need Furcal back ASAP

2008-06-08 19:24:28
234.   trainwreck
It is almost like Joe Morgan is trying to appease FJM with this consistent talk.
2008-06-08 19:25:03
235.   Uncle Miltie
Joe Morgan's story is one of the worst I've heard during a baseball broadcast.
2008-06-08 19:25:13
236.   Bob Hendley
Chan Ho is one of those players that have come back. Lets hope Berroa is as well.
2008-06-08 19:25:30
237.   bhsportsguy
Jon Miller just stole my line about Al Oliver.
2008-06-08 19:25:46
238.   Bluebleeder87
again I really hope they throw nothing but cheese to Fukudome.
2008-06-08 19:26:10
239.   D4P
Were you around for the Prefontaine Classic?
2008-06-08 19:27:35
240.   Uncle Miltie
I'm still Eugene...this week is finals weeks.
2008-06-08 19:28:17
241.   D4P
How did your school year go?
2008-06-08 19:29:18
242.   scareduck
I was looking for foreign-born rookies to come up with the Dodgers, and that would have to be Sandy Amoros.
2008-06-08 19:29:33
243.   Jon Weisman
Here was tonight's irony - as the whole conversation was taking place the last inning, they completely ignored Loney drawing a walk as the tying run. It's exactly the kind of thing they were talking about, but they're so busy making their point that they don't pay it any mind.

Of course you want players to do the right thing. Of course you want young players to learn. No one disagrees with that. The endless problem is ignoring the good things the kids do and the bad things the vets do.

It's not the philosophy. It's the double standard.

2008-06-08 19:29:36
244.   Uncle Miltie
It went well. I'm still debating whether I want to go straight to grad school or work a few years first.
2008-06-08 19:29:42
245.   scareduck
242 - foreign-born Latin rookies, that is.
2008-06-08 19:30:28
246.   Bob Hendley
They just showed Lasorda and Candy suggested that the fellow he is sitting next to is getting a full nine innings of earfull.
2008-06-08 19:30:51
247.   scareduck
243 - that and Miller and Morgan being impressed with the sound of their own voice.
2008-06-08 19:31:38
248.   Indiana Jon
Candy is one of my all time favorite Dodgers.
2008-06-08 19:32:25
249.   Bob Timmermann
Did Olmo play for someone else before the Dodgers? I think he may have. He had an odd career path.
2008-06-08 19:33:53
250.   underdog
Someone needs to put michael wilbon, jon barry, joe morgan on an oceanic flight to the Lost part of the south pacific. My world will be a happier place.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-06-08 19:34:01
251.   Bob Timmermann
Sweeney is in the ondeck circle.
2008-06-08 19:34:03
252.   Indiana Jon
249 Who is Olmo?
2008-06-08 19:34:22
253.   Bluebleeder87
Jon Miller at least does a very good Vinnie impersonation, but that's about it.
2008-06-08 19:34:44
254.   Bob Timmermann
Berroa is also ondeck.
2008-06-08 19:35:35
255.   Jon Weisman
247 - Frankly, I felt Miller injected some skepticism into the conversation, although clearly he was letting Morgan carry it. And it's true, Morgan indicated that he ultimately believed the kids would get it.

But the endless repetition of this as the story of the Dodgers is just too much.

2008-06-08 19:35:58
256.   Sammy Maudlin
Matt Kemp is on pace to break the Dodger season record for strikeouts. Billy Grabarkewitz has held the record for 38 years, he had 149 in 1970. Kemp is on pace to have 156, but his impending suspension might throw him off track.
2008-06-08 19:36:38
257.   Bob Timmermann
Luis Olmo. He played for the Dodgers in WWII. He is one of the few players to have a bases loaded triple and a grand slam in the same game.
2008-06-08 19:37:18
258.   D4P
Andruw Jones had 45 Ks in 43 games.
2008-06-08 19:38:25
259.   bhsportsguy
255 I think its the national story about the team and that the team has been on Fox and ESPN for the last couple of weeks.
2008-06-08 19:38:26
260.   scareduck
Angel Berroa having the kind of game we knew he could/would. I wonder why Jon and Joe aren't talking up his Proven Vetruhn Leadership?
2008-06-08 19:38:29
261.   ucladodger
Berroa IS an offensive upgrade. He did hit the ball once tonight!
2008-06-08 19:39:10
262.   Bob Hendley
249 - BR says he broke in with the Bums in 1943. Later was with Boston Braves for a totla of six seaasons.
2008-06-08 19:39:14
263.   Indiana Jon
257 Olmo played for Brooklyn first, then later played for Boston for two years. Did I miss something or did you just bring his name up out of thin air?
2008-06-08 19:39:16
264.   Bob Timmermann
There is a guy trying to heckle Berroa.

He has said:
Go back to San Diego
Go back to Las Vegas
Go back to Oklahoma
Go back to the 66ers

He needs some work.

2008-06-08 19:40:06
265.   MMSMikey
he hit a foul tip
2008-06-08 19:40:06
266.   LAT
How long is this Sweeny experiment going to go on?
2008-06-08 19:40:11
267.   bhsportsguy
258 You are not inferring that the media has not crushed Andruw Jones so far.

I saw Kemp strike out 4 times in games that I went to this weekend and he is striking out a lot now.

2008-06-08 19:41:02
268.   Bob Timmermann
Luis Olmo would precede Amoros as a foreign born Dodger rookie from a Spanish speaking country.
2008-06-08 19:41:18
269.   bhsportsguy
A you know what on the loose.
2008-06-08 19:41:19
270.   trainwreck
Always nice to heckle a guy on his first day.
2008-06-08 19:41:31
271.   nick
I really wish Pierre were just 10% better...
2008-06-08 19:42:13
272.   Jon Weisman
255 - No doubt - you don't need to explain to me how the media works - but it doesn't make it the right story.
2008-06-08 19:42:29
273.   Jon Weisman
272 was directed at 259.
2008-06-08 19:42:56
274.   Bob Hendley
268 - Puerto Rico is not a country.
2008-06-08 19:43:19
275.   Bluebleeder87
based on what has unfolded with the Furcal situation I really feel they will sign him to at least a 3 year deal.
2008-06-08 19:43:30
276.   trainwreck
Jeff Kent is the only Dodger capable of knowing that Marmol throws a lot of curveballs.
2008-06-08 19:44:31
277.   Indiana Jon
269 Is Puerto Rico considered foreign born? I know it hasn't always been a U.S. territory, but many other states haven't either and we consider all those people U.S. born.
2008-06-08 19:44:33
278.   LAT
Sweeny at .128. Good thing we don't let Laroche give it a try. Everyone rides Kemp and Loney every chance they get and yet Sweeney gets a pass. Huh?
2008-06-08 19:45:23
279.   Indiana Jon
275 That will be a mistake.
2008-06-08 19:45:32
280.   Bob Timmermann
Ahh, I thought Olmo was Cuban.

Ask Candy Maldonado if Luis Olmo is Latino.

2008-06-08 19:46:12
281.   MMSMikey
does marmol even have a fastball?
2008-06-08 19:46:30
282.   Indiana Jon
278 Since we replaced Hu with Berroa and Hu was hitting better than Sweeney, then maybe we should replace Sweeney with Ryan Shealy.
2008-06-08 19:46:36
283.   Bluebleeder87
why would it be a mistake? I mean the dude is a great hitter & a good enough defender were at least a 2 or 3 year deal would be good for the blue, who else is available?
2008-06-08 19:46:37
284.   nick
re. Jon's comments: I have to say, watching baseball and listening to announcers over the years, conventional baseball thinking is simply unable to account for the possibility (indeed, the fact) that veteran players also make dumb plays.

All dumb players made by veterans are merely the exceptions that prove the "rule", which is that veteran players play smart ball.

2008-06-08 19:46:48
285.   LAT
Uniphase your killing me!!!!
2008-06-08 19:47:36
286.   D4P
Sweeney strikes out, Kent grounds out.
2008-06-08 19:47:40
287.   Bob Timmermann
And now it is time for Saito.
2008-06-08 19:48:29
288.   D4P
Free throw update:

Boston 23
LA 2

2008-06-08 19:49:50
289.   Indiana Jon
283 Great hitter? I really don't want to get into the discussion again, but Furcal is not a great hitter. I would replace him with Hu or eventually Dejesus before I would pay 15 million a year. That money would be better used to lock up Martin and others.
2008-06-08 19:50:16
290.   Bluebleeder87

it's not like that at all a couple of us talk trash to him, I once forgot the S in Sweeney & typed in Weeney.

I like living on the edge.

2008-06-08 19:51:15
291.   Bob Hendley
277 - Only in retrospect when they became states, I think. And that was different, in that it was generally US citizens mmigrating there. As I recall, you couldn't run for president, however, if you had been born outside one of the states.
2008-06-08 19:52:08
292.   Bluebleeder87

so he doesn't have a good VORP? what is his VORP by the way?

2008-06-08 19:52:30
293.   Jon Weisman
288 - Maybe the Lakers are committing more fouls.
2008-06-08 19:52:53
294.   trainwreck
Furcal is easily our best player.
2008-06-08 19:53:08
295.   jtrichey
How long are we going to have a bench of Delwyn and 4 jokes? 2 of Hu/Maza/Berroa, Sweeney, and Ardoin. Torre is famous for bad benches, and this definitely qualifies.
2008-06-08 19:53:59
296.   D4P
Maybe the Lakers are committing more fouls

Maybe Barry Bonds just lifted a lot of weights.

2008-06-08 19:54:01
297.   Indiana Jon
291 So anyone over 50 that was born in Alaska can't run for president? That doesn't sound right.
2008-06-08 19:55:03
298.   Bob Hendley
280 - Both BR and BA say PR.
2008-06-08 19:56:25
299.   Bob Timmermann
Since John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone and nobody is complaining, a Puerto Rican could run for president too.
2008-06-08 19:56:36
300.   Bluebleeder87
if we developed great hitting I wouldn't mind a Hu (awesome D no bat player) to play short but as of right now I'd like Furcal to stay for at least 2 years, any of you agree with me or should we give the position to Hu next year.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-06-08 19:56:47
301.   Indiana Jon
292 294 I'm not saying the guy isn't good, but he is not a great hitter. Three years from now he will be worse than he is now. What happens when he hits like last year?
2008-06-08 19:57:29
302.   bhsportsguy
Cubs scored 19 runs in 7 games against the Dodgers.
2008-06-08 19:58:21
303.   trainwreck
Just because he is going to get worse with age does not mean he is not a great hitter.

He was hurt last year. I think the previous year and this year have shown that to be obvious.

2008-06-08 19:58:26
304.   Bob Timmermann
Barry Goldwater was also born in the Arizona Territory and he was eligible to run.
2008-06-08 19:58:52
305.   trainwreck
Practically everyone sans Bonds gets worse with age.
2008-06-08 19:59:41
306.   Gen3Blue
Man, this has been the most disgusting comment I have heard in a major league game. I am really considering not bothering with ESPN unless they contract Vin.
2008-06-08 20:00:02
307.   Bob Hendley
297 - I recall that there was an issue with Barry Goldwater in 1960, so, perhasp the Supreme Court resolved this techncial issue, i.e., the Constitution saying that you have to be born in one of the states. I am guessing at the time that they were afraid that some English born fellow might run. In any event Puertoricans were granted citizenship in 1917 (just in time to be drafted into the war).
2008-06-08 20:00:32
308.   fanerman
306 What was?
2008-06-08 20:00:55
309.   Indiana Jon
What do you guys consider "great"? Maybe it's the definition of the word that is our disagreement. Great hitters to me are A-Rod, Barry, and so forth. There are at least 5 shortstops I would trade Furcal for today.
2008-06-08 20:01:12
310.   bhsportsguy
306 I'm guessing the whole night.
2008-06-08 20:02:11
311.   Bob Hendley
Bill Richardson was born in Mexico City, I believe.
2008-06-08 20:03:33
312.   D4P
Hard to believe we're only 2 games ahead of the Giants.
2008-06-08 20:03:43
313.   Bob Hendley
Well. We split.
2008-06-08 20:03:44
314.   Jon Weisman
296 - I've just never been impressed with a free-throw differential as evidence as something unfair is going on. The underlying assumption that two teams should have the same amount of free throws never made sense to me.
2008-06-08 20:03:58
315.   MMSMikey
ho hum.
2008-06-08 20:04:34
316.   Bluebleeder87

what, are you serious? I thought he was born in NM. Man, Kemp looked totally out matched there.

2008-06-08 20:06:45
317.   Bluebleeder87
I'll take the split against the best team in the NL.
2008-06-08 20:09:21
318.   Louis in SF
Not a great night for LA sports teams. The Celts are hammering us, and the Dodgers could not get a clutch hit tonight, a run in either the 7th or 8th makes such a difference.

Best thing about Berrora was that he didn't make any errors. Only Dodger extra base hit comes from JP!

2008-06-08 20:11:23
319.   trainwreck
I am sure you would take most of them based off youth and not actual production. I would take Hanley (even with the terrible D), Reyes, and Jeter over Furcal, but that is probably it. Not sure about Tulo.
2008-06-08 20:12:05
320.   bhsportsguy
It appears that the weight of the Celtics breezing into the Finals was too much and they struggled on the road in the first two series and then they faced their tough challenge when Detroit won Game 2 of the last series.
2008-06-08 20:12:09
321.   bhsportsguy
It appears that the weight of the Celtics breezing into the Finals was too much and they struggled on the road in the first two series and then they faced their tough challenge when Detroit won Game 2 of the last series.
2008-06-08 20:12:41
322.   MC Safety
317 And perhaps the best team in the game.

Not bad for a bunch of kids who are still figuring out how to play the game the right way.

2008-06-08 20:13:01
323.   D4P
If I were Phil Jackson, I would employ a "Hack-a-whomever" strategy for the remainder of the game. Foul the Celtics immediately when they have the ball, and commit intentional offensive fouls when the Lakers have the ball. Repeat until every single Laker fouls out, and the team loses by disqualification.

That would be pretty sweet.

2008-06-08 20:13:20
324.   Bob Hendley
302 - That's amazing, only 19 runs in 7 games. Not too shabby.
2008-06-08 20:14:05
325.   MC Safety
319 I'll take Rollins over Furcal 365 days a year.
2008-06-08 20:16:13
326.   Bob Hendley
316 I was serious, but I was wrong. His mother went to the states for the birth, in Pasadena, and they returned to Mexico until he was 13 years old.
2008-06-08 20:17:04
327.   Indiana Jon
319 Tulo had a higher OPS+ as a rookie than Furcal has ever had in any full season. He's also quite possibly the best fielding SS in baseball, although I admit to not knowing his fielding stats.
2008-06-08 20:19:27
328.   Indiana Jon
319 I would also trade him for Rollins, Drew and possibly Guillen.
2008-06-08 20:20:08
329.   bhsportsguy
327 Tulo also played in the best offensive ballpark in baseball.

Players are not paid on their ranking in terms of their position relative to other players in the league. Furcal would have the advantage of being the best player available which is a powerful negotiating tool.

2008-06-08 20:21:33
330.   Bob Timmermann
16 minutes from final out to my getting car parked at home!

Woo hoo!

2008-06-08 20:22:21
331.   ucladodger

No way i take Jeter over Raffy. Right now, Raffy is a better offensive and defensive player than Jeter.

2008-06-08 20:22:24
332.   trainwreck
Rollins is overrated. Drew just does not get on base enough. I am not sure about Guillen's ability to play short anymore, since Detroit moved him.
2008-06-08 20:23:26
333.   JoeyP
Celtics were just too athletic for the Lakers. Way better defense.

Lakers have too many slow white dudes. It is a great accomplishment they got out of the west though.

2008-06-08 20:25:11
334.   ToyCannon
This isn't a serious discussion is it? Thousands of kids are born from Military and Diplomatic families all over the world and they are all eligible to become president.
2008-06-08 20:25:47
335.   trainwreck
I agree about Jeter's defense and he is having a slow start, but just look how good he has been for years and years.
2008-06-08 20:25:54
336.   ucladodger

Everything will change when the series goes back to L.A. I dont know if we'll win all 3, but home court is so huge in the NBA. The Celtics wont be shooting over 50% from 3 nor have the free-throw differential they had tonight. Its really amazing how much better teams are at home in the playoffs.

2008-06-08 20:26:58
337.   MC Safety
332 Rollins is definitely overrated, but that's not the point. And he shouldn't have won the MVP, but I'll take him over Raffy.
2008-06-08 20:27:34
338.   Indiana Jon
332 Rollins is overrated, but I would trade Furcal for him in a second. Drew will get on base at a better rate than Furcal over the next three years. Guillen can't play defense like Furcal, but his VORP, OPS+, or any stat you want to use says he's a better overall player. He is two years older, that's why I gave him a maybe.
2008-06-08 20:28:22
339.   ucladodger

Definitely agree, but I'm talking about right now. He is one of the worst fielding shortstops in the game and he is also 4 years older than Raffy. Jeter will be in Cooperstown, but if both are healthy, give me Raffy.

2008-06-08 20:28:42
340.   Pedro Astacio
So what's the general consensus on what the team needs to do to turn this season around? The current team is obviously not cutting it. Maybe it's time to trade Loney or Kemp for a power hitter at OF or 1B.
2008-06-08 20:29:56
341.   Bob Hendley
334 - Perhaps military and diplomatic kids, but not normal people.
2008-06-08 20:30:09
342.   bhsportsguy
340 Who is this mysterious player they would trade for?
2008-06-08 20:30:57
343.   trainwreck
Granted small sample size:

2008 VORP
Furcal: 26.7
Guillen 15.7

2008-06-08 20:31:32
344.   Indiana Jon
340 Be patient. That's what they need to do.
2008-06-08 20:31:37
345.   MC Safety
340 Juan Pierre to the bench for Delwyn Young.
2008-06-08 20:32:18
346.   trainwreck
I am arguing for Furcal, but there is no way I think Jeter is truly 4 years older than him after all the stuff I heard about Braves changing Furcal's birth date.
2008-06-08 20:35:46
347.   Indiana Jon
343 VORP is by position and Guillen is being compared to first basemen this year if I'm not mistaken. Here are the last two years as shortstops.

Guillen 66.3
Furcal 46.9

Guillen 46.9
Furcal 11.8

2008-06-08 20:35:58
348.   trainwreck
Funny, because all year I kept saying we have too many white guys.

Yes, I realize how horrible that sounds.

2008-06-08 20:37:42
349.   trainwreck
Yeah, but it appears he cannot play the position anymore so doesn't that make it a moot point?
2008-06-08 20:38:04
350.   CanuckDodger
Perhaps nobody has thought it worth discussing, but why are the Dodgers wearing the old-style batting helmets this season, not the ventilated ones? I thought the new helmets, when they came in, were mandatory.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-06-08 20:39:37
351.   trainwreck
I say, blame Larry Bowa.

I am getting Trailer Park Boys season 7 next week. Cannot wait.

2008-06-08 20:40:52
352.   Bob Timmermann
The new style helmets weren't mandatory. Kent wore an old style one last year. He switched after taking a pitch off his helmet and he said he felt more comfortable at the plate with his old helmet.
2008-06-08 20:41:26
353.   MC Safety
Trainwreck dissing his fellow Bay Area resident, Jimmy Rollins. Wow. You gotta root for the local guys.

Next thing you know, I'll be on here claiming I wouldn't trade Jeff Kent for Chase Utley.

2008-06-08 20:42:16
354.   Bob Hendley
Lakers heating up? Can we complain now about the officiating?
2008-06-08 20:43:38
355.   Bob Timmermann
Jose Guillen was such a good shortstop that he plays left field now.
2008-06-08 20:43:43
356.   trainwreck
The local guys like the Giants so I do not like them lol.
2008-06-08 20:44:11
357.   Bob Timmermann
Whoops Carlos Guillen. Not my MORTAL ENEMY Jose.
2008-06-08 20:45:54
358.   Indiana Jon
349 If it's true he can't play SS anymore, yes. Can he really not play there or is Renteria just better defensively? I'm not good with defensive stats. Was he that bad last year defensively?
2008-06-08 20:46:45
359.   Bob Timmermann
I don't know about the defensive stats, but from watching Guillen play SS last year, he was not very good at it.
2008-06-08 20:46:48
360.   Indiana Jon
357 Jose has been hot lately, but I would not trade Furcal for him.
2008-06-08 20:47:47
361.   Indiana Jon
359 Maybe he's the Jeff Kent of shortstops.
2008-06-08 20:50:30
362.   CanuckDodger
351 -- Wish I could say that season 7 of Trailer Park Boys was good, but I can't. Oh, well, maybe you will enjoy it more than I did. Have you watched any other Canadian stuff since you asked me for recommendations? If you are open to a gritty drama, a DVD for the first season of a great series called Intelligence is out.
2008-06-08 20:54:19
363.   MC Safety
356 I think the human race, as a whole, would be dead to me were I to find out out Jimmy Rollins grew up a Giants fan.
2008-06-08 20:54:22
364.   trainwreck
I just read the plot of the show and I will try to get a hold of it.

I need to get some of Finkleman's avant garde works.

2008-06-08 20:58:04
365.   trainwreck
I thought I heard him once say it, but I am not sure.

I know Dontrelle loved the Giants. I was at a Warrior game when he was on the Marlins and he was there decked out in all Giants gear.

2008-06-08 21:00:14
366.   MC Safety
365 That's too bad. In a perfect world, C.C, Dontrelle, and Jimmy would all be A's fans who hated the Giants.
2008-06-08 21:05:11
367.   CanuckDodger
364 -- Do you ever download TV episodes from torrents? I wonder if Finkleman's non-Newsroom stuff is available that way. I have all of the Finkleman television stuff on videos I recorded off of TV. It is too bad I don't have the means to copy my videos onto discs, as I would make copies for you. Maybe a friend of mine who has that ability wouldn't mind copying something, but I don't know how much he would go to the trouble of copying.
2008-06-08 21:08:05
368.   trainwreck
Yeah, I probably could get it off bittorrent.
2008-06-08 21:19:13
369.   Jon Weisman

Mike DiGiovanna almost seems proud that he had apparently never heard of "Smilla's Sense of Snow" before today. I'm not saying he should have heard of it, but I personally never like to brag about being ignorant about something.

I actually thought the book was a little overrated, so I never ended up seeing the movie.

2008-06-08 21:21:22
370.   Bob Timmermann
I didn't read the book, but the movie was pretty bad.

Julia Ormond is gorgeous. She should always light up the screen with her face. And she is always incredibly boring.

2008-06-08 21:23:57
371.   trainwreck
I did not really get any sense that he was proud or bragging about not knowing the movie. Seems like he had just never heard of the movie.
2008-06-08 21:27:03
372.   ToyCannon
I watched the movie because of her and the great name. I don't remember it being bad but it certainly didn't do anything for me.

Watched the Kite Runner last night, loved the movie but how possible was the reality of him escaping into Pakistan with the child? Amir's father was quite a character, one of the best I've seen in the movies in quite a while. We planned to follow that up with Charlie Wilsons War but sleep beckoned and we answered it's call.

2008-06-08 21:27:51
373.   LAT
Would someone mind stopping by my house and setting it on fire. My daughters recently discovered Friends and just came home with seasons 1,2 and 3. I foresee I'll be working late for a while.
2008-06-08 21:29:09
374.   trainwreck
I definitely sympathize.
2008-06-08 21:30:19
375.   Jon Weisman
371 - Okay, bragging wasn't the right word. But he didn't attempt to hide that he hadn't heard of it, which I find odd. Why would you want to go out of your way to show you didn't know something? It doesn't help the story any. If Titanic had cut into the game broadcast, the story would be just as good.
2008-06-08 21:31:00
376.   Jon Weisman
372 - I liked the Kite Runner movie. DIdn't read that book.
2008-06-08 21:32:01
377.   ToyCannon
Did anyone see Navarro getting into it with his pitcher after he shrugged him off twice and then gave up a monster home run?
You don't normally see a catcher give it to a pitcher on the mound in front of everyone and Garza let him have it in the dugout at the end of the inning.
2008-06-08 21:33:56
378.   Bob Hendley
334 - Its actually a fairly complicated issue largely because it is not a question of citizenship per se and the 14th amendment added new concepts as to "natural born". Clearly in the case of Goldwater and even perhaps for McCain a non-frivolous case might be made. The problem is that anyone can run for president, the constitutional question is whether they could hold office.
2008-06-08 21:35:01
379.   ToyCannon
With teenage daughters the fact they like Friends will be the least of your worries. At that age we were sneaking the girls out of their houses. It still amazed me how oblivious parents were to what their girls were upto.

Sleep well, Larry:)

2008-06-08 21:36:46
380.   Bob Timmermann
Children born of U.S. citizens anywhere in the world are "natural born citizens."

The Constitution prohibits naturalized citizens whose parents were not U.S. citizens. So, Arnold Schwarzenegger (Austria) and Jennifer Granholm (Canada) are out of luck.

2008-06-08 21:37:33
381.   ToyCannon
I came within several weeks of being born in Taiwan instead of Glendale. So even though I was a citizen there would be a question of being able to hold office as a President if I'd been born in Taiwan?
2008-06-08 21:40:39
382.   Bob Timmermann
You'd have my vote!
Have you lived in the U.S. for 14 years?
Are you over 35?

Congratulations! You're eligible.

But you wouldn't want the job because the Secret Service requires all presidential candidates to wear batting helmets now.

2008-06-08 21:45:34
383.   Bob Hendley
380 - Well, at least Bill Richardson disagrees with you. Perhaps he was spinning, but he thanked his father for having his mother go to Pasadena to give birth to him so that he could one day run for president.
2008-06-08 21:48:09
384.   Bob Timmermann
But Richardson's mother wasn't a U.S. citizen at the time, so if he had been born in Mexico, then things would have been complicated.
2008-06-08 21:52:49
385.   LAT
379. Actually one of them is annoying me to the point I almost wish someone would sneak her out for a couple of hours.
2008-06-08 21:53:41
386.   trainwreck
2008-06-08 21:54:51
387.   Bob Hendley
Thanks. That little spinner, he never mentioned that. In the interview he kept focusing on his father and the fact that his father had been born on a boat off the coast of Nicaragua and that this had haunted him all his life, so he wanted his son to be born on US soil.

I'd vote for Toy Cannon and defend his constitutional right to hold office with armed bears.

2008-06-08 21:56:29
388.   Bob Hendley
Richardson is a ballplayer, though.
2008-06-08 21:57:26
389.   LAT
Its official! I'm a loser, Both daughters walked out five mins ago and I'm too lazy to get up and turn DVD player off. Thus, I am sitting here by myself watching Friends. Take pity on me.
2008-06-08 21:58:35
390.   trainwreck
LAT is not inspiring me to want to start a family someday.
2008-06-08 22:03:00
391.   tjdub
389 to quote Bugs Bunny, "Oh agony! Oh oh agony, agony"

My wife is layed up at the moment with some torn knee ligaments. I was keeping her company the other day while she watched a syndicated episode of Friends. It was dreadful. I don't remember hating it this much when it was in first run, but now it may be the worst show ever.

2008-06-08 22:04:29
392.   Bob Hendley
Jeez, this is starting to get weird. George Romney was born in Mexico after his parents fled the US to avoid polygamy laws. Apparently all his mothers were US citizens.
2008-06-08 22:05:41
393.   Jon Weisman
389 - As someone who never hated Friends, I think maybe you don't hate it so much. If it were the King of Queens, for example, I'd be rushing to get that off the screen.
2008-06-08 22:06:31
394.   LAT
There is a God. The crappy DVD from Hollywood Video stopped working and I had to get up to fix it which means I might as well change the channel. No doubt girls will come back in and complain "Hey, I was watching that."
2008-06-08 22:11:48
395.   Bob Hendley
Someone needs to introduce LAT to the remote, one of the world's truly great inventions.
2008-06-08 22:22:31
396.   Bob Timmermann
If Becker were left on, Jon would have taken down the entire California power grid if necessary.
2008-06-08 22:23:42
397.   Louis in SF
Logan White is on Dodger Talk now
2008-06-08 22:24:43
398.   Jon Weisman
396 - Ah, Becker jokes. Where has the time gone?
2008-06-08 22:28:55
399.   LoneStar7
a disappointing and frustrating evening. I had great seats for the dodger game tonight, and a pass for the all you can eat in the sports bar.

After watching the dodgers struggle to put runs on the board again, I went up to the bar with some friends for the fourth quarter of the laker game, while i got to see a decent comeback..I was left thoroughly disappointed after both losses, especially what i saw a must win for the lake show..

2008-06-08 22:31:04
400.   Brent Knapp
395 . The greatest invention was the remote control that controls the remote control that you've temporarily misplaced or is out of reach.

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2008-06-08 22:33:07
401.   LAT
390. LAT is not inspiring me to want to start a family someday.

One of the summer projects in our house is cleaning out the garage. This includes shredding the 10+ years worth of bills, insurance forms and cancelled checks we have in boxes. You want a reason not to start a family--money. Its an expensive proposition. I'd be retired and living on an island without kids. Even nursery school was expensive and we went to a co-op.
To give you an idea how old some of this stuff is I found some LA Cellular bills. I forgot all about life before Verizon and AT&T took over the world.

2008-06-08 22:34:38
402.   trainwreck
Well this won't make you feel any better, but this is the first time I have ever heard of LA Cellular.
2008-06-08 22:38:13
403.   Bob Hendley
Obama was born two years after Hawai'i became a state. His mother was a US citizen.
2008-06-08 22:43:04
404.   LAT
Yes but has Obama ever heard of LA Cellular?
2008-06-08 22:44:23
405.   dzzrtRatt
While I realize there must be millions of dollars in focus-group tests suggesting it's a good tactic, a "call to action" if you will, I hate how about half all ads end in a question.

I can't tell yet if "In Plain Sight" belongs in the pantheon of crime shows, or whether it's just a cheesecake show.

2008-06-08 22:53:50
406.   Bob Hendley
401 - Back in the day, of course, having kids meant that they would generate income for you and take care of you when you did retire. I am talking about a long time ago.
2008-06-08 23:00:50
407.   Bob Hendley
397 - What did he say? Did he explain the Florida tilt of the draft?
2008-06-08 23:06:19
408.   CanuckDodger
407 -- White was on the radio very briefly, and he just addressed the questions the two hosts put to him. He was asked about Ethan Martin, and he told us what we already know about Martin. That was it for the recent draft. He was asked about why he drafts high school players. Nothing we haven't heard before.
2008-06-08 23:25:21
409.   Reddog
I think if we give up 3 runs every game, we're going to win a lot of games. But then again, maybe not.
2008-06-09 06:47:24
410.   Ken Noe
Rosenthal's at it again, including a new jab at Martin. Meanwhile, the Dodgers miss having Jones in the lineup.

2008-06-09 07:01:06
411.   D4P
The Dodgers clearly miss injured shortstop Rafael Furcal and even center fielder Andruw Jones, who — as poorly as he was hitting — at least provided veteran presence in the lineup.

Amazing that guys like Rodenthal get paid to say this kinda stuff. Seriously: is there absolutely no quality control in the MSM these days? Does no one actually read the material to ensure that it makes sense before it goes out?

2008-06-09 07:05:53
412.   Ken Noe
411 I know. Sure the kids look good statistically but they don't know things veterans know, they feel "entitled," and they lack "presence." I just wonder who is spewing this nonsense in his ear. By the way, did you catch the Berroa comment at the bottom?
2008-06-09 07:10:55
413.   D4P
No, I had stopped reading after the first Dodger blurb. I'm not surprised Berroa didn't want to be in AAA, and I'm not surprised that some team (especially one run by Ned) might think that Berroa would be more motivated (and thus perform better) in the big leagues. The problem is that Berroa at his very best was average, and and was only average for one year. He has been terrible every year since.
2008-06-09 07:11:07
414.   Bob Timmermann
What does an "entitled" get? Do they get a discount at the movies? Do they get a better seat on the bus?
2008-06-09 07:14:55
415.   Bob Timmermann
I should say an "entitled" player?
2008-06-09 07:15:07
416.   D4P
Do "entitleds" get lockers without garbage cans in front of them?
2008-06-09 07:20:40
417.   Ken Noe
413 My problem isn't with Berroa, really. He was cheap and will be gone soon. My problem is with the mindset that trades for Berroa while admitting they have no clue what to expect, or signs a backup catcher with the yips, or keeps a pinch hitter who can't hit on the roster.

416 Based on recent public quotations, it's hard to identify a Dodger who feels more entitled than Kent.

2008-06-09 07:25:43
418.   D4P
My problem is with the mindset that trades for Berroa while admitting they have no clue what to expect

AKA "Who'sToSayberMetrics"

or signs a backup catcher with the yips

Incompetence and no player evaluation ability.

or keeps a pinch hitter who can't hit on the roster

Some kind of nostalgic/romantic commitment to older players and the "Baseball Guy" idea that every team needs these kind of players in the dugout/locker room and on the field in order to succeed. Plus, Ned seems to be concerned about hurting people's feelings, especially those of veteran players whom he probably likes a lot as people.

2008-06-09 07:29:29
419.   Marty
Berroa looks like he's 42. Was his birth certificate done with pencil?
2008-06-09 07:31:39
420.   D4P
There is no way Berroa is 4 years younger than me.
2008-06-09 07:46:41
421.   Marty
Helene Elliot of the Times just called the kids out to produce now or be traded.
2008-06-09 07:57:24
422.   Bumsrap
I say, shake up the kids. Open their eyes. Scare them to better performance. Trade Pierre and Kent.
2008-06-09 08:01:28
423.   jasonungar07
412 Ned. All this stuff has always come from him. That's his job. To meet the press and do PR. It surely isn't talent aquisistion.
2008-06-09 08:06:18
424.   jasonungar07


.316 /.425 /.432 /.857 martin

.307 /.355/.460/.815 kemp

.299 /.359 /.443 /.802 ethier

.298 /.372/.444/.816 dewitt

.280/.331 /.418/.749 loney

.276 /.344/.313 /.657 pierre

.257/ .296 /.433 /.730 kent

2008-06-09 08:08:49
425.   Ken Noe
419 420 Berroa's age, as I've mentioned, has been subject to debate. He now says he's two years older than he once claimed. You have to wonder if that's optimistic.

423 I've been thinking about that too. If Rosenthal has an ounce of integrity (yeah, I know) "club officials" doesn't refer to a player or coach. Doesn't sound like White or Ng. The one guy on the list whose job is tied to the 2008 record is Ned. Perhaps this is that "reverse psychology" Andy used to use so well on Opie.

2008-06-09 08:10:18
426.   jasonungar07
I can't wait for Ned to be fired and I am willing to live with what that means. It's better than never winning a thing which is the path I have always felt he is leading us on.
2008-06-09 08:19:45
427.   Ken Noe
Kuo .286/.286/.429/.714
Lowe .192/.192/.192/.385
Penny .167/.167/.167/.333
Sweeney .128/.222/.170/.392
Kuroda .091/.130/.091/.267
Bills .091/.130/.091/.221

Rather than Sweeney, honestly, just let the pitchers bat.

2008-06-09 08:20:07
428.   JoeyP
Dodgers finished their 26 games in 27 day stretch at a record of 11-15.

Not too bad.

But if you look further out, they are 11-19 over their last 30 games.

2008-06-09 08:20:36
429.   MollyKnight
410- Writers/TV personalities who make comments like that are simply projecting their own fears about younger, more talented people taking their jobs. It's pretty transparent.

Also, if it's true that the kinds aren't blossoming into real baseball players, shouldn't the veterans be on the hook for failing to provide that leadership and guidance?

2008-06-09 08:22:42
430.   Bob Timmermann
As bhsportsguy noted earlier in the thread, "Traded for whom?"
2008-06-09 08:23:14
431.   Bumsrap
This concept of entitlement if anything is being used as if it were negative when, Martin, Loney, Kemp, Ethier, DeWitt should be told they are now entitled and this is your team--now go out there and win some ballgames. Don't confuse them by having Kent and Pierre on the team or hitting anywhere other than 7th and 8th.
2008-06-09 08:24:50
432.   Kevin Lewis
I was at the game last night, and I enjoyed it. The offense is anemic, but it is encouraging to see our pitching handle the Cubs pretty well. Penny seems to be getting into a lot of hitters counts, and they are hitting him hard when he does.

I know this is being pretty optimistic, but I feel like this team is going to catch fire pretty soon. If Furcal can come back 100%, I think it will make quite the difference.

2008-06-09 08:25:00
433.   D4P
Also, if it's true that the kinds aren't blossoming into real baseball players, shouldn't the veterans be on the hook for failing to provide that leadership and guidance?

This is what bugs me. On one hand, we're told we need veterans because they create a winning atmosphere, show the kids the right way to play, don't complain about playing time, do veteranny stuff like confront teammates in private rather than blabbing to the media, etc. etc. etc.

But then every time we turn around, we get examples of how our veterans aren't doing the things we're told we need veterans to do. Our veterans complain if they're not playing, run to the media to complain about their teammates, don't appear to teach our children well, etc.

2008-06-09 08:26:06
434.   D4P
And another thing: we were told that paying Joe Torre™ $4 million a year would put a stop to the veterans vs. kids thing.
2008-06-09 08:32:45
435.   D4P
At the very least, if he can't resolve the clubhouse issues (which is in part what he was paid to do), shouldn't Torre be telling the players and coaches to keep everything in house? Is that too much to ask for $4 million dollars?
2008-06-09 08:34:29
436.   Bumsrap
Kenny Easler was Vegas' hitting coach when Loney was there and doing poorly at the beginning of 2007 and wasn't at vegas in 2006 when Loney hit .383. In 2006, Easler was at the Dodgers AA team and LaRoche, Loney, Martin, Ethier, and Kemp weren't. I think DeWitt went back to A ball in 2006 while Easler was the AA hitting coach. I haven't verified anything other than where Easler was in 2006 and 2007.

If Ned and Joe are not going to accept any heat and they want instead blame inexperience, maybe at least Easler should come under the microscope.

2008-06-09 08:34:46
437.   Ken Noe
453 Don't forget, had Kemp been thrown out for arguing balls and strikes, it would be cited as an example of his immaturity and lack of baseball savvy. But when Kent does it, it's a positive that should be emulated by these meddling kids.
2008-06-09 08:36:06
438.   jasonungar07
If Kemp and his .300+ avg and .349 OBP would just take his at bats as seriously as Jeff Kent and his .251 avg and .291 OBP things would be way better.
2008-06-09 08:36:08
439.   D4P
If Ned and Joe are not going to accept any heat and they want instead blame inexperience

And another thing: when Ned blames the kids, how is he not simultaneously blaming himself (for putting the roster together in the first place)?

2008-06-09 08:38:07
440.   LogikReader
I dunno you guys, I thought I saw mostly positive things from the Cubs series this weekend. We stifled the Cubs offense for the most part and managed a split with the best team in the NL. Not sure where all this "vets vs kids" brouhaha is coming from, but with Furcal back we should be a-ok.

Andruw Jones can stay on the DL all he wants.

2008-06-09 08:39:11
441.   Bob Timmermann
Even though that comment is referencing something in the future, I'm inclined to agree.

And I thought he was a history professor!

2008-06-09 08:44:33
442.   Ken Noe
441 I go back and forth in time using a cool machine. It really helps the research.
2008-06-09 08:45:37
443.   Bumsrap
I was going to go and do something productive but I think I will now hang around to read post 453--I am really curious.
2008-06-09 08:46:20
444.   Bumsrap
2008-06-09 08:51:07
445.   underdog
Rarely is the question asked, is our kids learning?

Seriously, molly, i think you're right about the mentality of the rosenthals of the world. You and jon can counteract such thinking with your own more reasoned, factual approach. Help us won't you?

2008-06-09 08:52:51
446.   OhioBlues12
437 - I thought that was such an odd topic during last night's broadcast. In one breath they talk about Kent being frustrated that this generation doesn't question umpires etc. and then they we turn around talk about how the kids aren't "getting it" and they shouldn't have the audacity to question veterans. These stories and commentators are so without logic that it borders on the surreal.
2008-06-09 08:52:58
447.   blue22
429/433 - That seemed to be Joe Morgan's inadvertent argument last night. He can't bring himself to criticize old veterans like Kent, whom he certainly sides with on these issues. Yet he called on personal experience to point out how Nellie Fox and others helped him to learn how to play the game when he first came up. Without intending to, I really thought he was calling out the PVLs for not helping the kids.

But I guess the follow up argument is that these dang kids just won't listen, with their iPods and Xboxes and what not.

2008-06-09 08:56:07
448.   D4P
I guess the follow up argument is that these dang kids just won't listen, with their iPods and Xboxes and what not

I don't reject that possibility, but I haven't been shown any evidence that it (if true) affects team performance. Not only that, but why do we need veterans teaching the kids anyway? Isn't that what we're paying the coaches to do? If not, what are we paying the coaches to do?

2008-06-09 08:56:34
449.   Jon Weisman
Let me add some drama: Will 453 even be allowed to happen?
2008-06-09 08:58:01
450.   MollyKnight
I meant "kids," not "kinds."

But guys, I gotta say, after spending some time around the team, my opinions have changed a little bit. I'm not saying that the veteran leadership is good, but some of the kids could be a little more focused. Not saying they are to blame or should be traded or whatever, but it is possible that trading one of them would scare the daylights out of the rest of them, and perhaps light a fire.

And you know I've been pro-kids all along. But I'm just sayin'..

Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2008-06-09 09:03:49
451.   D4P
Will 453 even be allowed to happen?

Let's see...

2008-06-09 09:03:49
452.   D4P
Will 453 even be allowed to happen?

Let's see...

2008-06-09 09:04:50
453.   MollyKnight
445- I have a sister six years younger than me, and about 20 years less sure of herself. When I got to be about 12 or 13 years old, my mom would have me babysit her all the time.

If something went wrong--broken window from playing ball, mud all over the house, rabbit flew the coop and ended up down the street--I would take the heat, even if it was Sarah's doing. Being the older sibling, I was supposed to be the one who policed her, and lead by example.

I have a feeling this is the way it goes in most households. I have no idea why when it comes to the media writing about the Dodgers, it's the other way around.

2008-06-09 09:05:03
454.   D4P
Tried a triple-post in 451 .

It didn't work, so I'm guessing this post won't show up either. Here goes...

2008-06-09 09:05:24
455.   Bluebleeder87
429 Molly just gave me goosebumps with that comment, nicely said.
2008-06-09 09:07:00
456.   berkowit28
449 Hard to say - do you mean you may remove post no. 453 - whatever it is - as soon as, or before, it appears? You're the only one who can do that. (It's also unlike you to bracket numbers, so I'm very curious.)

... Or which post number did you really mean?

2008-06-09 09:08:11
457.   Bumsrap
453 was worth the wait
2008-06-09 09:09:11
458.   blue22
450 - I wonder how a trade of one of them shakes things up. Do they have it so good here in LA that the threat of being traded to Pittsburgh would scare the living daylights out of them? If I was Andre Ethier, I might welcome the opportunity to play 162 games for the Pirates. It would definitely help his future earning potential.
2008-06-09 09:09:22
459.   Jon Weisman
2008-06-09 09:09:54
460.   Kevin Lewis
Dang it,

I was going going to post something in 453 to go in context with the future citing. I was too slow

2008-06-09 09:10:18
461.   regfairfield
Why is it only the Dodgers that get the "we're losing because of the kids" story. Why don't, say, the Diamondbacks get similar stories about how their failing because Eric Byrnes is hurt and isn't there being veterany, and maybe they should send Chris Young and his career .237 average back down to the minors.
2008-06-09 09:13:46
462.   MollyKnight
The other thing that gets me is that most of these columnists/TV talking heads saying these things are not in the locker room every day. How can they possibly understand the dynamic from their living rooms? I think the only people who would be allowed to make "so and so should be traded" statements are Ken Gurnick, Dylan, Diamond, and Tony.
2008-06-09 09:23:31
463.   adrian beltre
molly, your credibility obviously opens my mind to the idea of a trade of one of the young guys, but i cant figure out who it would be and for what. do you have any ideas about that? btw i have come to hate calling them "the kids" recently, it just feels like im playing into the hands of the losers like rosenthal and plaschke and morgan, etc.

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