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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

The Situation
2008-08-30 00:48
by Jon Weisman

With the Dodgers at this moment firmly in a battle for second place with Colorado, I just wanted to let you know a couple of things.

I've written in the past that I see no incentive in giving up the season until it's over. It doesn't take a genius to see how big a longshot the Dodgers are becoming, but what do you gain by making a concession speech? We're not running for office, here. I'll still be following the games - even if we're headed into Losers Dividend territory.

I hope I've done decent work on Dodger Thoughts this year, though as always, there have been gaps. The new baby and the book deal both came within two weeks of the start of the 2008 season, so there have been times this spring and summer where I have had to choose between those things and this site. There have definitely been times that the site has suffered, though there have been posts I've been proud of.

Anyway, with the book's due date of October 1 nearing, I have already moved into sprint mode, which means you might not see me microanalyzing the team until after the season is over. I'm not going anywhere, but if you feel the site lagging here and there, please know that it's only temporary.

I feel every Dodger loss, that's for sure. This team has really disappointed me – I thought it would be better than this, even though the reasons why it hasn't been have been discussed at length. Every season is precious, and if this one is over, its loss is felt.

But I urge you to enjoy what you can. Enjoy the players you like. Enjoy Vin. Enjoy the game. Life's too short to let the frustrations of the Dodgers bury us.

Comments (81)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-08-30 01:08:54
1.   JRSarno
2008-08-30 01:36:43
2.   Jacob Burch
This is a much prettier version of what I meant earlier in the thread. I'm not "giving up," in the sense of stop watching games or not relishing a victory, but I can't bring myself to feel as pained as I have over this last week. My expectations have shifted, but I'll continue to enjoy Kerbilshawingsley, Matty, Andre, and Russ, and if we win, I get to hear Randy Newman.

Seeing what you've written this year--both attacking and patient--has proved as an nagging inspiration for me to pick up a few projects of my own since graduation--possibly sports related, possibly own--so I think you for that. The DT Picnic was one of the true highlights of my year.

2008-08-30 02:27:33
3.   Andrew Shimmin
O look, look in the mirror?
O look in your distress:
Life remains a blessing
Although you cannot bless.
2008-08-30 03:30:09
4.   thinkblue88
oh how the years go by.......

i'll always follow and support the team. i have been my whole life. why stop now? il stand by them till the end. because you know what, miracles can happen.

2008-08-30 04:47:30
5.   Kevin Lewis
Excellent points, Jon. The site has been wonderful as always.

I'm just checking in from St. Louis. I just watched the sun rise over the Mississippi, and I am reminded of just how beautiful things are when we stop to watch.

Oh, and I dreamed last night that DeWitt hit in the game winner today. Of course, in the same dream Mia Hamm was a crooked auto mechanic, so I don't know how valid it was.

2008-08-30 05:34:19
6.   Bob Timmermann
Mia Hamm once tried to sell me on replacing the suspension in my Prius and told me that my brake pads were badly worn after 10000 miles.
2008-08-30 06:08:53
7.   Bob Timmermann
5 - Ahh, St. Louis. People go there for the views all the time.

I would suggest a visit to Forest Park and perhaps a trip to the Historical Museum. Or the Art Museum. Or the Zoo. They're all free.

2008-08-30 06:14:06
8.   D4P
The Rockies are 1.5 games behind the Dodgers.
2008-08-30 06:16:35
9.   Felton
Jon, you and everyone here have always done excellent work. Here in New Orleans, there is not a lot of Dodger information and this site is great. I can still remember the days when I would get a partial line score in the morning paper and would wait anxiously for the afternoon paper for Dodger scores from the exotic coast.

Whou would have thought that after Andre Ethier's walkoff saved the day against the Brewers on Sunday, August 17, that we would be here now? Colorado looks more and more like they may pull off a repeat of last year.

I decided to investigate the last 11 games, suspecting that the Dodger offense has underperformed and also underperformed their underperformance. I used the Bill James Basic Runs Created Model and this is what I found:

Col - L 3-8 Runs Created 5.3
Col - L 3-4 RC 2.6
Col - W 3-1 RC 2.3
@ Phi - L 1-8 RC 2.0
@ Phi - L 2-9 RC 1.4
@ Phi - L 2-5 RC 6.0
@ Phi - L 0-5 RC 6.3
@ Was - L 1-2 RC 2.8
@ Was - L 4-5 RC 9.5
@ Was - L 2-11 RC 2.3
@ Az - L 3-9 RC 6.3

I think the RC formula overstates the number of runs created a little bit, but that's 41 RC vs 24 RS in the 1-10 run. This could easily have been a 5-6 run with an offensive line of roughly .254/.303/.332, dreadful to be sure, but not like the current existential crisis we feel. Yet in spite of all of this, wins Saturday and Sunday will make all of us feel pretty good on Monday morning. I can only hope that patience can prevail and the breaks go the Dodgers way - they have to eventually, don't they?

2008-08-30 06:21:33
10.   Bob Timmermann
Sadly, breaks never do have to even out in the short run.

Ask Cubs fans.

2008-08-30 06:24:01
11.   D4P
breaks never do have to even out in the short run

And then, by the time the long run rolls around, we're all dead.

2008-08-30 06:29:09
12.   Dodger Dawg
Jon, your site is a breath of fresh air where Dodger info is concerned. As far as the team , yes they've underperformed IMO, but it's almost like watching a train wreck, you really don't want to see it but something makes you look anyway. I expect them to lose every game, and this way if they do ,I'm not to upset, and if they win it's a pleasant surprise.
2008-08-30 06:52:45
13.   timm
I really enjoy the site Jon and appreciate all the work you put into it.
2008-08-30 07:24:19
14.   Ken Noe
If you wake up and don't want to smile,
If it takes just a little while,
Open your eyes and look at the day,
You'll see things in a different way
Don't stop thinking about 2009
Don't stop, it'll soon be here
It'll be here and better than before
Ned will be gone, Ned will be gone
2008-08-30 07:40:04
15.   Eric Enders
"So what brings you to St. Louis?"
"I came here for the views."
"But we're in the Midwest!"
"I was misinformed."
2008-08-30 07:52:22
16.   Kevin Lewis

I am surprised you didn't list the City Museum. I have been to all before...all my family lives out here now. The good news is American Airlines did not lose my luggage like Northwest did over Christmas last year.

2008-08-30 07:55:19
17.   thinkblue88
Looks like Kent really is hurting. Will undergo MRI and he has taken himself out of today and tomorrows game.

2008-08-30 08:04:15
18.   Tripon
Go on the DL Kent. Go on the DL and never emerge from it.
2008-08-30 08:04:26
19.   Terry A
17 - Wow. Another Dodger playing very poorly while hiding an injury. Shocking.

0 - Jon, I don't presume to speak for everyone here, but I've felt for a while now that it's a matter of time until the attention you deservedly receive for DT pulls you away from regular blogging. That seems to be happening now, and I'm glad you're not just closing the doors. Waiting a few days -- even a week -- for good content is better than what you'll get from the vast majority of the "dailies" in the blogosphere. Take your time; we'll be here. Probably talking about corduroys and Mike Ramseys, but still here.

2008-08-30 08:05:48
20.   old dodger fan
17 Kent's a surly old guy but was one heck of a ballplayer. We're not seeing the real Jeff Kent these days. I hope he takes this opportunity to watch the rest of the season, maybe pinch hit now and then and make Mark Sweeney fade into oblivion (another guy even further removed from his prime) and enjoy the rest of the season.

I would hate to see Kent go out there and play hurt and humiliate himself.

It's time to start prepaing his speech for Cooperstown. He's earned it.

2008-08-30 08:22:39
21.   scareduck
20 - We're not seeing the real Jeff Kent these days.

A doppelganger?

2008-08-30 08:26:56
22.   Tripon
We are seeing the real Jeff Kent these days. We're seeing the 40 year old version that plays hurt for a month and doesn't bother to think playing hurt on a bad knee might actually hurt the team, especially when he's not doing anything defensively.
2008-08-30 08:35:08
23.   Kevin Lewis
Shouldn't he be fined for playing through an injury that may have cost the team runs and defense?
2008-08-30 08:48:08
24.   DaDoughboy
Hear hear Jon..I got at least 3 texts last night of various 'I'm so done with the Dodgers this year' variety. Thanks for putting this in perspective (for me at least).
2008-08-30 08:59:51
25.   Bumsrap
Kent will hustle when healthy and Kent has been stopping at a base when he usually would advance one more base. It was obvious that Kent was hurting and Torre had to know it and yet Torre still played the veteran.

A couple of years ago Kent jumped on Bradley for stopping at third instead of hustling home when he and everybody else knew Bradley had quadriceps that needed protecting. That wound up ugly with Bradley calling Kent a racist. But my point is that Kent has been protecting his knee in the same way Bradley was protecting his quad and to me that is hypocrisy.

2008-08-30 09:06:34
26.   Bumsrap
I think the Dodgers would have been better served by Torre recognizing that Park and Kuo were starters and not one inning relief pitchers. I think both pitchers should have been used only every fifth day in relief and pitch three to five innings. All the better if those appearances closed games without turning the ball over to the one inning guys. Other pitchers could have been used in the same way.

Torre seemed to be forcing a square peg in a round hole instead of thinking (sorry about this)outside-the-box.

2008-08-30 09:19:33
27.   silverwidow
Elbert's debut was fun. His fastball was excellent, although he overthrew a few of them. Curveball is also a plus pitch similar to Kershaw's. He also flashed a nice slider in the mid 80s.

He's going to be a great starter, hopefully next year.

2008-08-30 09:43:05
28.   Brian Y
Minor League Stuff:
Schmidt threw a hitless inning but did give up a walk. Proctor went 2 IP with 4K's and only 1 hit. Greg Miller was atrocious giving up 1 hit but 3 ER's and 3 BB without getting an out. Delwyn Young went 4 for 5 with a HR and Andruw went 0 for 3 playing 1B and striking out twice.

Biggest News is Lambo going 4 for 4 with another HR in AA. He is now hitting .409 and played both LF and 1B in this game. Not bad for a kid who turned 20 less than 3 weeks ago.

2008-08-30 09:46:44
29.   Marty
It was great to see Elbert for the first time. That was the only part of last night's game I actually sat down and concentrated on. I'm excited and hope he doesn't hurt himself. Billingsley, Kershaw and a healthy Elbert would be a nice 1-2-3.
2008-08-30 10:00:37
30.   briano
Jon, you've done a great job on the site and I wish you the very best with your book. I'm sure it will be fun, informative, and inspiring. I'm looking forward to getting it. I agree with what you have said here in this post. You know that I have already conceded that this season is over but your right, we need to enjoy what we do have right now. We still have Vinny and just looking at the best uniform in all of sports (I know, broad statement. But I actually believe it) still inspires me to dream of playing first base for my childhood sports heroes. I love this site and read it everyday. So keep up the great job. Thanks Jon.
2008-08-30 10:02:52
31.   arborial
28 "Andruw went o for 3 with 2 strikeouts"

Can someone please explain to me how it is that Andruw hit 26 home runs last year and now cannot even produce close to that in AAA ball. Is it just his weight, or has his knee injury totally changed his swing? I just don't understand how you can go from a top-tier centerfielder to a person who shouldn't get a call up from AAA in about a year.

Any explanations?

2008-08-30 10:09:17
32.   Icaros


2008-08-30 10:11:31
33.   Eric Stephen
I told a friend of mine before the season that Billingsley would have a better season than Dan Haren. They're pretty close, but I'd like to see Chad take that bull by the horns this evening.

I personally guarantee a Dodger win this evening. If the Dodgers don't win tonight, I'll purchase a Toby Hall Dodger jersey t-shirt.

Hey, look at that, USC football starts in a little over two hours!

2008-08-30 10:11:32
34.   MC Safety
This might help calm a few down. Ariel Pink covering The Human Expression's Calm Me Down. Can't find the original so I went with this version. It's actually quite nice, but the vocals are a bit muffled.

2008-08-30 10:26:49
35.   the count
31 - Is there such a thing as a hitter's version of "Steve Blass Disease"? I am trying to think of an example in which this happened, but I can't.

Just guessing, but this can't be just one thing. I think it's a combination of a swing with many holes in it, losing confidence, and a subsequent drop in motivation.

2008-08-30 10:31:32
36.   Jon Weisman
31 - Andruw Jones' 2008 minor-league stats extrapolated over 140 games would give him 51 homers. He has a 1.071 OPS with Las Vegas.

Feel better? :)

2008-08-30 10:37:32
37.   Johnny Nucleo
35 Wilson Betemit for us last year was a terrible starting 3B, but great as a pinch hitter. It was frustrating to watch.
2008-08-30 10:39:14
38.   trainwreck
I think my handle has subliminally caused people to use the words train wreck more often.
2008-08-30 10:41:13
39.   Harold M Johnson
It was great to see Blake DeWitt get a hit last night, I feel OK with Kent being out since Blake's (apparently) going to be in.

I'm also excited to see Pee Wee come back up to the bigs, I think he has a future in MLB.

Elbert was also fun to watch, although to be honest I don't understand why Kuroda doesn't get more innings-- that's what he's there for, or so I thought.

In any case, baseball can be unpredictable, but teams and players almost always return to the mean.

2008-08-30 10:41:44
40.   arborial
36 a little, I am just trying to figure out what would lead to such a dramatic/tragic fall. I firmly believed that he could only improve on his horrific start to the season but to my amazement he has gotten worse.
2008-08-30 10:43:02
41.   superbas
that's a bold statement eric, i hope you're right. i usually watch billz games "in tivo". if he does well a 4-5 innings in i'll watch. otherwise i shut DT, espn, tv highlights, other blogs etc out for the night. billz generally don't pitch well in AZ so i'm hoping for the best.
2008-08-30 10:43:29
42.   dkminnick
31 - My own opinion is that Jones is/was a "talent" player - not a "skill" player. He's the kind of guy who succeeded based on reflexes and pure athletic ability. When those attributes diminished, for whatever reason, it was revealed that Andruw Jones did not know how to hit. Watching him repeatedly chase breaking balls down and away, when everyone in the stadium knows that's what is coming, is some of my evidence. I've enjoyed hearing how obsessed Manny is with studying and practicing his hitting. I've heard no such claims made about Jones.
2008-08-30 10:49:03
43.   Bob Timmermann
Greetings from Ann Arbor! Beautiful day here. Hope the game is interesting.
2008-08-30 11:29:21
44.   JRSarno
I wonder if Kent the anti-hero will go on the DL, and re-emerge by the end of the season as a pinch hitter. I'm sure he'd like the opportunity of hitting a pinch hit walk off in the playoffs and limping around the bases. (Oops, this presupposes we're going to the playoffs...)
2008-08-30 11:32:32
45.   trainwreck
I do not think he would be very happy about that.
2008-08-30 11:36:37
46.   Tripon
With that noted, why is it that these same people don't have a problem with a system that costs Alvarez millions of dollars and freedom of choice at the only point of leverage he'll have for a decade? The rules that prevent Alvarez from offering his services to multiple employers cost him a heck of a lot more than his current actions ever will. From Joe Sheenan at BP.

So, wait, six million isn't enough for a young player starting out Joe? And nobody is forcing Alvarez to play baseball for a living, he could always back to school, graduate and join the rest of us in the workplace, but oh, wait. He wouldn't be able to earn $6 million out of the gate that way either. The fact that the team can offer Alverez $6 million as a bonus compared to what he can earn not playing baseball makes Sheenan's comment on the current draft a strawman's argument.

2008-08-30 11:37:04
47.   Bill Crain
Does anybody remember--or know where to find--the Bill James formula for when your team is not mathematically eliminated but so far back you can forget about it? The tags on the articles at James Online are way too cryptic and I haven't got the patience to open all of them.

Not that I'm anxious to pack it in or anything, but watching this on a daily basis is getting painful. And we got to wait two more weeks for Ohio State to show up.

Like the punk told Dirty Harry, "I needs to know."

2008-08-30 11:38:09
48.   D4P
I, for one, am in no hurry for The Ohio State to show up.
2008-08-30 11:42:36
49.   arborial
42 Good point, I never thought of it that way. In my mind his debut at 19 further supports this hypothesis. 19 year olds in the ML typically rely more on natural talent than learned skill.
2008-08-30 11:49:00
50.   trainwreck
Things should be much easier for USC if Beanie Wells cannot play.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-08-30 12:03:08
51.   NoHoDodger
According to the website, it must be the curse of the magic gloves.
2008-08-30 12:03:29
52.   Tripon
East Carolina beats VaTech. Beamerball fails again!
2008-08-30 12:12:05
53.   Bob Timmermann
I am at Michigan Stadium.

I am not alone. .....

2008-08-30 12:17:34
54.   D4P
I assume you're alluding to the scene in "Tell Me You Love Me" where Jamie and Hugo (presumably smoked the marijuana like cigarette and) had the entire empty football stadium to themselves to roll around on the grass and run up the stairs.
2008-08-30 12:17:54
55.   Daniel Zappala
Jon, you're doing a great job. Keep up the fantastic work, and do your best to balance family and work responsibilities. Your family needs you more than we do.

This season hasn't worked out for the Dodgers, but then I've had years that haven't worked out too. I can understand, and I'm willing to stick with them and see what comes next. I'm also crazy enough to hope against hope that they suddenly go on a 10 game winning streak.

2008-08-30 12:31:02
56.   cargill06
How many points to I need for UVA to score to cover the 19.5 spread? I'm thinking 16+ would be good enough
2008-08-30 12:42:08
57.   Physics DR
Jon, Jon!

I am depressed. I continue to depend on you for "ONLY" positive writing!

With my bet, it may be time to leave the country again.

2008-08-30 12:42:16
58.   jtrichey
46 I think you are really missing the point here. It's the American way to grab what you can when you can. If Alvarez was free to peddle his services to all 30 teams he could possibly make 12-15 million dollars. Sure 6 million is a lot of money, but who would begrudge someone trying to get more than that. The draft does not allow players to do that. I personally think the draft works fine for its purposes, but it's no straw man argument. These players have no control of their employer for up to 9-10 years. That's what it's about.
2008-08-30 12:52:07
59.   cargill06
Andrew Lambo, Scott Elbert, Ivan Dejesus, and Ned's axe coming puts a smile on my face this morning.

This core will have many many chances.

2008-08-30 13:06:03
60.   Bob Hendley
Oh Jon, say it ain't so. When we are winning, who needs ya. But in these trying times we need the one-eyed man.

I for one, remain optimistic. You are never as bad as you look and I have seen what these guys can do when everything is clicking. When they left for this road trip, I found myself thinking of Hawkeye telling Miss Munro to "just stay alive". If they can remain within striking distance, I like very much the possibilities given the schedule going into the last two weeks of the season.

Torre seems to realize that time is running out and that he cannot go with the same-old-same-old (witness Martin leading off last night). With the season on the line, Dre is getting the starts and I assume that Nomar's days a numbered. Whether the adjustments work or not remains to be seen, but when push comes to shove, I cannot imagine him letting the PVLs take him down.

2008-08-30 13:09:51
61.   Harold M Johnson
60 But who would play in place of Nomar? Berroa is a defensive upgrade based on how he's played this year, but he can't hit. Hu is probably a bigger defensive upgrade, but again can he hit?
2008-08-30 13:11:54
62.   Eric Enders
Hu can probably hit as well as Nomar has been hitting lately. The sum of Hu's offense + defense would certainly be greater than that of Mr. Walk-Off.
2008-08-30 13:15:40
63.   cargill06
56 the answer to your question is 50+
2008-08-30 13:58:13
64.   sporky
61 In August, Nomar's been 'hitting' .167/.196/.222
2008-08-30 14:01:19
65.   Harold M Johnson
64 Oh :)
2008-08-30 14:03:47
66.   Andrew Shimmin
Nomar's August BABIP is .170; .218 on the year, off of a 17.6% line drive rate. Not to roll out the Sweeney defense, or anything.
2008-08-30 14:07:10
67.   Bob Hendley
Jeez, I am guessing that Bennett could match those numbers, if given half a chance.
2008-08-30 14:25:49
68.   Bob Timmermann
Very quiet here in Ann Arbor.

Strangely, the crowd is applauding an award given to Lloyd Carr.

Utah is outgaining Michigan 313 to 102.

2008-08-30 14:26:23
69.   nick
jon, even the grumpy, foul-mouthed Yankee fans of Bronx Banter (well, this one, anyway) admire your work: without you--

well, without you, and Vin, and the shameful and cynical removal of my previous NL team of choice from the city of Montreal, and moving to the West Coast-- ;^)

--without all that, I wouldn't root for the Dodgers!

2008-08-30 14:28:21
70.   sporky
66 Speaking of defense...
2008-08-30 14:31:21
71.   Bob Hendley
Hu was sent down for batting .159/.224/.206, as he should have been. He also batted 8th, where he should have been. But he also was capable of fielding at a level that a guy like Lowe could appreciate (Nomar, I love the guy, can only make errors on balls that he can get to).

As regards M. Sweeney, yes, lets roll him out. Bring on Pee Wee!

2008-08-30 15:06:41
72.   dzzrtRatt
Even the lousy teams finish their schedules, and at least a die hard core of fans roots for them til the very end.

It's going to be hard to get excited in September when their schedule won't even allow them to be spoilers. If they fall out of the race this weekend, they haven't got a single significant game left in the season -- unless Colorado goes on a run, I suppose.

But that might be a good thing. No other managers will be pressuring Joe to play his major-league lineup. We can see some lineup creativity, a few starts for James McDonald, Hu at short, PeeWee in left. It's already happening with DeWitt up here to replace Kent.

My theory on the team is, the ravages of time caught up with them. The kids lack stamina because they aren't used to a full season. The veterans lack stamina because they're old. We don't have many players right in their prime years who aren't on the DL (Furcal) or the bench (Pierre).

P.S. If Pierre is such a great September player, why hasn't it occurred to Ned to trade him, now, to a contender. He's clearly a surplus player now. Just a money deal would be fine with me, with maybe a low-A player thrown in for the optics. Couldn't the White Sox use him? The Mets? The Phils? Red Sox?

2008-08-30 15:14:05
73.   Bluebleeder87
I was catching up on the score in my phone & even then it hurt watching the end result... like I mentioned before I go to these Alcothon meetings (a lot of great sobriety there, LOVE the company i'm with) but anyways I'll be with y'all in spirit.

sorry peepz but my dna coding tells me never to give up, so I'll be there until there mathematically out of it.

2008-08-30 15:14:19
74.   Tripon
72 Because Pierre's still owned about 30 million/3 years on his contract. He's entering the decline phase of his career, and there's few suitors for him.
2008-08-30 15:20:19
75.   Andrew Shimmin
Pierre's prime ended after 2004. He's been in decline since then.
2008-08-30 15:26:55
76.   Tripon
USC is a bully.
2008-08-30 15:30:51
77.   Alex41592
The Cubs and Rays are incredible. The game is never over with those two teams. If the Dodgers fall out I know what teams I'll be rooting for in October.
2008-08-30 15:37:34
78.   Bluebleeder87
My teams if my team doesn't make it:

1) Halos
2) Rays
3) Cubbies

2008-08-30 15:39:46
79.   Mike De Leon
Hey folks, yeah I got over the trade. In truth I've been watching every game I can and dying with everyone else during the last 10. I'm surprised by Andy's attitude, I can understand how he might be p.o.'d about his treatment in LA but to go to Pitt and dog it, if true, is incredibly STUPID. I'm surprised Adam hasn't taken him to the wood shed and beat some sense in him.

I also don't understand the love affair here for MR or Blake. Yeah MR's a great hitter but at the same time he also turns 37 next month and will want at least 3yr/60 mil. Do you really want another Kent in LF? Wouldn't you rather have something like this:

LF Matt Holiday FA next year
CF Kemp
RF Ethier
1B Loney
3B Hank Blalock FA this year
C Martin
2B DeWitt
SS Raffy

Holliday's contract runs out after next year and the Rocs aren't going to be able to hold onto him so will probably try to shop him. He's 9 years younger than MR has better D a better Arm, just as good of hitter and will want just as much $$. Blalock's a FA this year and seems to need a change of scenery he'd also solve the 3B ? for quite a while since he's only 27. Would we have to give up a ton for Holliday probably which is one reason s'den rapping the farm was so bad.

2008-08-30 15:43:26
80.   Andrew Shimmin
Utah is trying to help make this game more exciting for Bob.
2008-08-30 15:44:56
81.   Jon Weisman

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