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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Yep, This Is How It Starts
2008-10-22 20:01
by Jon Weisman

Jon Heyman of writes that "one (yes, one) person (that narrows it down) who's spoken to Dodgers people (we're talking an actual theoretical conversation) suggested that the team is considering proposing (I mean, heck, it could happen) a contract to Manny Ramirez that may come close to matching Alex Rodriguez's record $27.5-million average annual salary but on a much shorter term, perhaps only two years."

I mean, the qualifiers to that statement are deeper than the Grand Canyon.

However, that's enough for Heyman to write an entire column. And it's enough for to take the story and run:

Dodgers reportedly OK with Manny money over short term

ESPN's entire source for that headline?'s source? One person, who is not even a participant in the negotiations.

And yet the entire baseball world will now take it seriously.

Which means it's time for my annual reminder:

How To Survive the Hot Stove League Without Getting Burned
1) Rumors are not facts.

2) Teams and agents often float rumors to generate attention or to misdirect rivals. The media will report these rumors without much concern over how viable they are. The rumor is the news - whether it comes to fruition or not is not the media's problem (or so the media has decided).

3) A report that agents, players or teams "were talking" is meaningless. People talk all the time. It doesn't mean anything will come of it.

4) Any rumor attributed to an anonymous source is particularly useless.

5) Making judgments about a general manager based on a rumor reflects poorly on the judge.

6) Many deals, if not most, are never rumored, but spring up out of the blue.

7) Many Dodger Thoughts readers are eager to pass along rumors. If you are planning to post a rumor here, please check to see if it has been posted already. But whatever you do, don't take the rumors too seriously.

8) Hometown papers will often inflate the value of their own players, either on their own initative or that of their sources, and print particularly unrealistic trade packages.

I'm not telling you not to have fun with the Hot Stove. Have fun! I'm just saying that from my experience here, people take the rumors way too seriously, discussion gets heated, and the fun goes away. And that's what I'd like to avoid.

- Your Friendly Hot Stove Curmudgeon

Comments (395)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-10-22 20:22:36
1.   trainwreck
So you're telling me there's a chance?!!!


2008-10-22 20:32:20
2.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Might wanna close that italics tag.
2008-10-22 20:42:38
3.   Tripon
Russell Martin probably should stop clubbing never night.

The Dodgers should also stop trying to kill his knees and rest him every once of a while. Perhaps they should meet in a middle and a compromise can be achieved.

2008-10-22 20:45:10
4.   68elcamino427
Hey! I heard from a buddy who knows a guy we all read that .............
2008-10-22 20:45:23
5.   trainwreck
After seeing that TMZ video, the only problem I have with Martin is the people he brings home with him.

Come on, Russell. You are better than that.

2008-10-22 20:48:08
6.   rayg
El-whatever man....just passing on what I know...if that's ok with you.
2008-10-22 20:51:00
7.   rayg
Jon-sorry about the rumors....they just keep me going in the offseason.
2008-10-22 20:52:55
8.   bferb
5 Could not agree with you more! That was pretty disappointing
2008-10-22 20:53:45
9.   rayg
got to smell me a hotdog, let me know I'm that line
2008-10-22 20:54:15
10.   Tripon
3 Every night, not never night.

NeverNight sounds like a lame DC's superheros name.

2008-10-22 20:54:36
11.   rayg
will it be lights out Lidge? or lights out for Lidge?
2008-10-22 21:03:36
12.   checkityahla
Lights out D-Rays!
2008-10-22 21:12:02
13.   underdog
Don't don't don't let's start
This is the worst part
Could believe for all the world
All the hot stove rumors that unfurl
But don't don't don't let's start
I've got a weak heart
And I don't get around how you get around. o/^
2008-10-22 21:30:36
14.   68elcamino427
This hot stove could be a barn burner. Lots of spots that the Dodgers need to to fill.
2008-10-22 21:36:52
15.   Gen3Blue
Thank you--Jon.

I almost let myself get hysterical over the first off season rumours, while it isn't even worth getting worked up over the last ones in March.

2008-10-22 21:40:01
16.   El Lay Dave
As long as we keep the hot stove away from the Santa Ana winds....

15 Well put.

2008-10-22 21:54:00
17.   Dodgers49
For those concerned about Martin's workload he did have this to say after the season:

Russell Martin said Wednesday night he developed a better understanding of his body and the positive effects of taking a day off when he can.

So maybe he will actually take some days off next year instead of playing 3rd base.

2008-10-22 21:55:50
18.   trainwreck
Maybe he meant from clubbing ; )
2008-10-22 22:00:17
19.   Jon Weisman
TREMENDOUS Friday Night Lights tonight.
2008-10-22 22:18:58
20.   Bob Timmermann
Martin stopped his clubbing after the Greenpeace people caught up with him.

He has developed an alternative in his diet to seal meat.

2008-10-22 22:19:55
21.   Kevin Lewis
The most ridiculous part about this Martin rumor is: why would a team that wants to see what they can get in trade for their all-star catcher tell the world they are concerned about his makeup and his defense? The best way to trade someone for amazing value is to announce to the world that your catcher parties late and shows up looking tired. It always makes sense to tell the media about this rather than talking about it in house.

My guess is some attendant said they saw Martin come in looking like he had a late night...that coupled with the TMZ video led to the "facts". And as far as I can tell, one video on TMZ does not mean Russell is a party animal.

2008-10-22 22:48:57
22.   LAT
Could the SI/ESPN Manny story have been leaked by the Dodgers? What if their strategy for the next few months is to leak stories about deals they offered or are considering offering Manny until it looks like the Dodgers really tried but Manny (or Boras) is too greedy. Let's face it the Dodgers have to devise a strategy to blunt the backlash when they don't re-sign him. On the other hand maybe I'm just a paranoid conspiracy nut.
2008-10-22 22:56:12
23.   Tripon
How does super two work? Do players who receive super-two status get started on their arbitration years, but get another year tacked on to their arbitration service? Take Andre Ethier, does he have to serve 6 and a half years of time with the Dodgers before he's a FA? Does Russell Martin have to? Or do they serve only 5 years a half years?
2008-10-22 23:13:38
24.   Tripon

It is not looking good for Tom Brady right now.

2008-10-22 23:20:04
25.   xaphor
22 Boras to McCourt, "You go over odds for Varitek and I'll let drop you went toe to toe for Manny."
2008-10-22 23:20:07
26.   bhsportsguy
23 Normally I would Eric Stephen answer this question since he is the man with the Super Two knowledge but since I have the floor, here goes.

The short answer is, all Super Two players get is an extra year tacked on to their arbitration-eligible years. It does not change anything in regards to the 6 years MLB service time a player needs to have in order to declare free agency if his contract is up at that time.

So, yes, instead of the 3 years of arbitration time a player like Chad Billingsley will get (he is not eligible until after 2009), Ethier and Martin will have 4 years of arbitration time.

2008-10-22 23:21:35
27.   Bluebleeder87

I plan on playing it cool this year also, it kind of makes me want to print that Jon page & put it some where near my computer...

2008-10-22 23:22:21
28.   Bluebleeder87
one more thing, I hope Kershaw takes notes from Hamel man...
2008-10-22 23:32:29
29.   Linkmeister
ESPN and Drudge are very similar, don't you think?
2008-10-22 23:33:40
30.   trainwreck
This is the world's smallest violin playing for Tom Brady.
2008-10-22 23:46:31
31.   El Lay Dave
2008-10-22 23:49:19
32.   trainwreck
lol Awesome!
2008-10-22 23:51:32
33.   Linkmeister
Having once severed a patellar tendon myself (see here: I have some sympathy for Brady. They didn't graft a new one in, but rather wired it back together.
2008-10-23 00:51:42
34.   bhsportsguy
Just for fun, here are the players that have been on both Bill James 2008 and 2009, top talent under 30 list.

Note that only 12 players have been on both lists and they have not moved around that much.

The list below represents where those players were located on the 2007 list.

1. Prince Fielder, Milwaukee Brewers first baseman, age 23
2. Hanley  Ramirez, Florida Marlins shortstop, age 23
4. David Wright, New York Mets third baseman, age  24
5. Felix Hernandez, Seattle Mariners pitcher, age 21
7. Jose Reyes, New York Mets shortstop, age 24
9. Grady Sizemore, Cleveland Indians center fielder, age 24 
10. Cole Hamels, Philadelphia Phillies pitcher, age 23
11. Ryan Zimmerman, Washington Nationals third baseman, age 22
12. Troy Tulowitzki, Colorado Rockies shortstop, age 22
13. Miguel Cabrera, Florida Marlins third baseman, age 24
14. Ryan Braun, Milwaukee Brewers third baseman, age 23 
16. Nick Markakis, Baltimore Orioles right fielder, age 23
18. Adrian Gonzalez, San Diego Padres first baseman, age 25

2008-10-23 01:00:20
35.   Louis in SF

Agree with Jon and one of the real sad things about the SI article was how much of it was recycled. The quotes from Many were at least a week old, and I am still not sure how serious he was about a six year contract. I think the source may actually be a Boras connection, simply because he has to get pan hot to create a market.

IMO a great story that SI should do, given what Andruw Jones said the other day and the obvious Manny issue for the Dodgers, is a piece on how Boras handles what in my mind is a huge conflict of interest. Is Mr. Boras going to help the Dodgers get Jones traded, so he then can land Manny back with the Dodgers? As crazy as it sounds, if the Dodgers can't sign Manny, nor trade JP without eating a ton of salary, does it make any sense to keep Jones and pray he comes back to form or it least improves to a point that he can be traded at mid-season?

Has anyone ever heard Boras address any of these questions?

2008-10-23 02:01:50
36.   trainwreck
Boras is making his commission off Manny, so that is who he cares about. Wherever he can make the most off Manny is the best for him. He can worry about Jones later.
2008-10-23 05:54:07
37.   Ken Noe
Wow! Heyman has taken Rosenthal's peanut vendor-source away from him! This is big.
2008-10-23 06:59:44
38.   Sushirabbit
Yep no need to worry about second hand news.
2008-10-23 07:04:12
39.   Sushirabbit
I don't want to give up my 'Dreams' of getting Manny, but I'm 'Never Going Back Again' to thinking it can happen like I did with Vlad.
2008-10-23 07:44:01
40.   Ken Noe
Wasn't Heyman the guy who insisted up to the last minute that Manny was going somewhere other than LA? Even as Rosenthal was reporting the deal? I'd be thrilled with such a two-year deal--if nothing else it means that McCourt has the money--but I'd believe most anybody before Heyman.
2008-10-23 08:21:57
41.   Jon Weisman
40 - I believe Heyman had the news a few minutes before everyone else - not that it mattered.
2008-10-23 08:24:05
42.   Ken Noe
41 Thanks Jon, I stand corrected.
2008-10-23 08:30:45
43.   D4P
Hey, man - You can go your own way. Don't stop with the second hand news, but I don't want to know.
2008-10-23 08:50:55
44.   regfairfield
How many baseball players go home and curl up with a good book after the game?

I'm thinking Russ going out is the rule instead of the exception.

2008-10-23 08:52:02
45.   delias man
So Neyer does not think 88 was the greatest game 1 ever? You decide.

2008-10-23 08:53:55
46.   Kevin Lewis
I thought last night was a great game, but the Umpiring was very inconsistent. The strike zone kept changing, and the non-balk call was perplexing.
2008-10-23 08:56:14
47.   larry slimfast
It's make up your own Manny contract fun-time in my brain! You can play too!

4 years $95 mils with $1 mil performance bonuses for every all-star, MVP and playoff round MVP occurrence.

yr one - $20 mils w/ $10 mil deferred signing bonus over 3 yrs.

yr two - $25 mils

yr three - $20 mils or $10 mil buyout (team option)

yr four - $20 mils or $10 mil buyout (team option) or six yr deferred $15 mil buyout (player option).

2008-10-23 08:56:19
48.   Eric Stephen
I saw that the other day. He was going for an exciting game throughout. The end was certainly glorious in 1988, but I don't mind his choice of 1954. That game had a walk-off upset, and the Greatest Catch Of All Time®.
2008-10-23 08:56:38
49.   El Lay Dave
44 Next season, Ethier, taking a cue from the veteran Nomar, will be curling up with titles like "Goodnight Moon".
2008-10-23 08:57:49
50.   regfairfield
47 That seems pretty realistic actually. I'm sure Manny wouldn't mind getting 2/65.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-10-23 08:59:44
51.   Bob Timmermann
Game 1 of the 1988 World Series had an interesting 1st and 2nd inning and then nothing until two outs in the bottom of the 9th.
2008-10-23 09:00:52
52.   Eric Stephen
I've never seen a buyout as much as half of the year's salary.

Zito's buyout is $7m for a $18m salary.
Giambi's buyout is $5m for a $22m salary.

2008-10-23 09:01:04
53.   D4P
In addition to making Boras defend Manny's lack of effort in Boston, I would also make Boras defend Manny's lack of defensive ability.
2008-10-23 09:01:46
54.   Eric Stephen
I think Vic Wertz's ball would have been over the CF camera that Canseco hit. :)
2008-10-23 09:02:10
55.   delias man
48 I have always thought Hatcher's HR was even more improbable.

Still overall a good list. Imagine being an A's fan in that Game 4 of 1929.

2008-10-23 09:02:42
56.   Kevin Lewis

That reminds me...I am surprised at how many children's books don't make any sense. I mean "Goodnight Moon" is all about a woman that talks to inanimate objects. I don't know if I want my son hearing that :)

And the "Very Hungry Caterpillar"...why doesn't the Caterpillar eat all of the food he encounters? He just drills a hole, feels hungry and moves on. You still have the entire apple to go, buddy!

2008-10-23 09:05:57
57.   Eric Stephen
Not to mention the acid trip that Ted Geisel (aka Dr. Seuss) was on when he wrote all his books! :)

That said, he was a large contributor to UCSD and the Geisel Library is pretty kick ass.

2008-10-23 09:06:26
58.   cargill06
Personally, I don't see why Manny wouldn't jump at 2/55. If you play well the market for a DH could very well go up by 2010. By the time he becomes a FA again I'm sure he can get a 3/60 contract at least. That's 5/115 more than anyone will offer him this off-season.
2008-10-23 09:11:07
59.   Jim Hitchcock
49 I could see Ethier curling up with a good cookbook.

55 The best part about Hatcher's HR was the way he ran it out.

2008-10-23 09:13:24
60.   Eric Stephen
I don't remember the exact line, but I believe Garigiola said something like Hatcher was running like he thought they would take the HR off the board. :)
2008-10-23 09:14:24
61.   D4P
I think Mickey took "homerun" literally.

I mean, it's not called a "hometrot" or a "homejog" or a "homesaunter".

2008-10-23 09:16:34
62.   regfairfield
How about 4/100 with an opt out after two years?
2008-10-23 09:17:30
63.   D4P
Player opt out or team opt out?
2008-10-23 09:18:06
64.   regfairfield
62 Player opt out. I'm assuming Manny takes it.
2008-10-23 09:19:05
65.   Eric Stephen
Then our GM can act shocked in November 2010 when Manny exercises said option. :)
2008-10-23 09:20:17
66.   D4P
And question Manny's religious beliefs.
2008-10-23 09:20:51
67.   delias man
65 Then He will panic and sign Coco Crisp to 5/55 deal. NOOOOOOOO!
2008-10-23 09:21:09
68.   regfairfield
Heck, if we throw that in we might be able to get way with 4/90.
2008-10-23 09:21:41
69.   D4P
According to Win Shares (or whichever stat considers both offense and defense), how much is Manny worth per year (assuming his defense is more like it normally is, rather than how it was with the Dodgers in 2008)...?
2008-10-23 09:26:00
70.   Eric Stephen
Here are Manny's win shares total the last 7 seasons:

(offense + defense = total)

2002: 27.65 + 1.18 = 28.82
2003: 25.31 + 2.37 = 27.68
2004: 22.61 + 2.49 = 25.09
2005: 29.88 + 2.67 = 32.55
2006: 24.80 + 2.17 = 26.97
2007: 11.10 + 2.79 = 13.89
2008: 28.46 + 2.83 = 31.29

Not sure how that translates into salary though.

2008-10-23 09:29:30
71.   Brent Knapp
Hey Xeifrank,

I know you are familiar with China (and just visited) and I was wondering if you could help me gather some information. My little sister is moving to China for 6 months for an internship and is young, slightly naive, and has no idea what to expect. She is only 24 and among other things has some technology related questions. Any way you could shoot me an email for some specific questions? For one thing, she needs a new laptop, should she buy one there or here? Anyone else with prior experience/knowledge feel free to shoot me an email at bwknapp at gmail dot com. BTW, why do people write out there email addresses like that? Thanks.

2008-10-23 09:31:51
72.   regfairfield
70 MORP from BP:

Marginal Value Above Replacement Player, as introduced in this article. MORP is modelled based on the actual behavior of recent free agent markets, and accounts for non-linearity in the market price of baseball talent (e.g. teams are willing to pay more for one 6-win player than two 3-win players).
As listed in a player's PECOTA card, a player's MORP includes the major league minimum salary of $380,000 for 2007. Further, in a player's Five-Year Forecast, we assume salary inflation of 8% per year through 2010 (EXCEPTION: a player's Peak MORP does not include the minimum salary or the inflation adjustment.)

For 2007, a player's MORP is estimated as follows:
1200000*(WARP^1.5) + 380000

2008-10-23 09:31:57
73.   Eric Stephen
Wins above replacement (WARP1):

2002: 8.3
2003: 8.0
2004: 7.0
2005: 6.7
2006: 5.9
2007: 4.7
2008: 9.8 (4.5 with Bos; 5.3 with LA)

2008-10-23 09:32:44
74.   D4P
MLB owners spent a total of $2,667,386,933 on salaries in 2008, for a total of 2,428 wins. That comes out to $1,098,594 per win.

I don't know if that means that a player should get paid roughly $1 million for each Win Share or not...

2008-10-23 09:34:15
75.   Eric Stephen
Using that formula, a 6 WARP from Manny is worth ~$18m or so.
2008-10-23 09:34:28
76.   regfairfield
So according to this, Manny's season last year was worth 40 million. This seems high, but it works with my belief that elite players are priceless.
2008-10-23 09:35:32
77.   regfairfield
74 You need to adjust based on if the player was a free agent or arbitration eligible. I think the number a couple years ago was four million per free agent win.
2008-10-23 09:36:43
78.   regfairfield
Also keep in mind WARP doesn't really work because the number it uses to measure defense is terrible, like thinks Richie Sexson is an elite defender terrible.
2008-10-23 09:37:47
79.   D4P
Is that WARP 1, 2, or 3...?
2008-10-23 09:38:36
80.   herchyzer
65 . So long as the GM doesn't react in a panic.
2008-10-23 09:39:21
81.   regfairfield
79 One.
2008-10-23 09:40:57
82.   D4P
Then Matt Kemp was worth over $20 million last year, and Loney was worth almost $12 million.

I don't buy it.

2008-10-23 09:43:32
83.   Xeifrank
71. I can't send emails out right now, but email me at (xeifrank at yahoo dot com) and give me some details of questions, also let me know which city and what time of year she will be there. I would probably have to ask my sources as far as the laptop question, but let me know what the laptop is for. If I don't know an answer I can probably track it down fairly easily.
vr, Xei
2008-10-23 09:45:41
84.   regfairfield
82 That goes into the "uses a really bad number to measure defense" thing. I have a spreadsheet that figures this out using marginal wins above bench, but I forgot how it works.
2008-10-23 09:45:54
85.   herchyzer
Martin Thoughts:
I find it easy to believe that a very young man HAS been staying out late to the point that it has begun to affect his professional life. I find it easy to believe that the Dodgers are a bit concerned with his night-life habits and that something has gotten out about that. I find it more likely that the Dodgers are more concerned about his "habits", ie, a most likely temporary condition that can be rectifified, than his "makeup" with it's more permanent connotations. I find it nearly impossible to believe that the Dodgers have been shopping Martin. I'd call that part complete speculation.
2008-10-23 09:51:16
86.   Jacob Burch
Fun article on the creator of the MLB logo:
2008-10-23 09:52:47
87.   D4P
uses a really bad number to measure defense

Do you mean

1. the number tends to overestimate how well a player plays defense
2. the number tends to overestimate how much money defense is worth
3. both

2008-10-23 09:54:52
88.   D4P
Never mind about the "how much money defense is worth" in part 2 of 87 . I forgot what I was talking about.
2008-10-23 10:00:06
89.   regfairfield
Net Win Shares Value using 2007 salary numbers:
(Go here to see how this system works:

Ethier: 10.12 million
Manny: 9.62 million
Bills: 8.83 million
Kemp: 6.64 million
Lowe: 4.91 million
Russ: 1.79 million
Loney: 175 thousand

2008-10-23 10:02:03
90.   Eric Stephen
I was looking at the Rays roster, and here's my best guess at how their payroll stacks up for 2009

C Navarro - $3m (assumed; 1st year arb)
1B Peña - $8m
2B Iwamura - $3.25m
3B Longoria - $550k
SS Bartlett - $2m (assumed; 2nd year arb...or possibly Brignac?)
LF Crawford - $8.25m (club option or $2.5m buyout)
CF Upton - $500k (assumed; 3rd year)
RF Gross - $2.5m (assumed; 1st year arb)
DH Floyd - $2.75m option (or $250k buyout)

OF Gomes - $3m (assumed; 2nd year arb)
IF Aybar - $450k (assumed; 3rd year)
IF/OF Zobrist - $425k (assumed; 2nd year)
C Riggans/Hernandez - $425k (assumed)

SP Kazmir - $6m
SP Shields - $1.5m
SP Garza - $475k (assumed; 2nd year)
SP Price - $1.583m ($650k + spread out signing bonus)
SP Sonnanstine - $450k (assumed; 2nd year)

CL Percival - $4.45m
RP Wheeler - $3.2m
RP Howell - $475k (assumed; 3rd year)
RP Miller - $2m option (or $400k buyout)
RP Bradford - $3.5m
RP Balfour - $2m (assumed; 2nd year arb)
RP Niemann - $400k
RP Jackson - $2m (assumed; 1st year arb)

Baldelli - $4m (already bought out 2009 option)

Total - $67.133m

That's if they brought back everyone, which would be 26 guys. They can save $5-7m by declining the options on Bartlett, Floyd, and Miller, and trading Edwin Jackson.

The point is that's a really good team for only about $60m.

2008-10-23 10:02:04
91.   D4P
Billingsley was that much more valuable than Lowe...?
2008-10-23 10:02:47
92.   Eric Stephen
That's only for two months of Manny, right?
2008-10-23 10:03:08
93.   regfairfield
91 Slightly more valuable of a player while making way less money, so yeah.
2008-10-23 10:04:19
94.   regfairfield
92 No, that's his full season. If I prorated his salary and included only his Dodger numbers, he was worth a bit more than eight million for a third of a season.
2008-10-23 10:04:56
95.   kinbote
Regarding Manny, I don't buy any of the 6 year talk; nor do I think 2 will get it done. I think a team will eventually cave in to Bora$ and give Manny 4 years. Assuming he will get just shy of A-Rod money, I predict Manny will ultimately receive in the neighborhood of 4y/$100. I'm not sure who will give it to him, but I sure hope it isn't Arizona.
2008-10-23 10:10:12
96.   regfairfield
For any one who cares, the net win shares value formula:

(Win shares above bench-(Salary-380,000)/multiplier)*.887

Where multiplier is 1.76 million for a free agent 841 thousand for arbitration eligible, and 17 thousand for a non arbitration eligible.

2008-10-23 10:10:38
97.   regfairfield
That last part should be 887 thousand.
2008-10-23 10:18:38
98.   kinbote
95 Nevermind Arizona. Two articles just popped up about how they are overbudget and have little to spend.
2008-10-23 10:21:02
99.   JoeyP
90- Not bad, but I think they'll be back in the 85 wins & below next year. This year, they hit the middle relief lottery & got career years from Garza/Sonnanstine.

I supppose if David Price is as good as everyone thinks he is, he could make up for the above regressions.

They really need 1 more big bat to solidify a 3-4 yr run of 90+ wins.

2008-10-23 10:23:53
100.   ToyCannon
The Players Union could not have been happy about Longoria's contract.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-10-23 10:29:48
101.   regfairfield
99 But their core is still young and likely to improve. Garza was a very highly regarded prospect so it's not like he did anything completely unusual. Plus they have a chance to add Price, Wade Davis and Jacob McGee to the pitching staff.

Dunn would be a pretty good fit for Tampa actually.

2008-10-23 10:30:26
102.   Eric Stephen
I will bet you they have at least 360 wins from 2009-2012.
2008-10-23 10:30:29
103.   JoeyP
IF you were Longoria, would you have signed it?

Its certainly a great insurance policy, but severely limits his future earnings potential.

2008-10-23 10:42:54
104.   JoeyP

Garza was a good prospect, but I think the results he got this year were better than his peripherals (and career peripherals) would suggest.

Garza's K/9 was 6.62
But his h/9 was just 8.29.

His hit rate is really really low considering he's not a big K/9 guy. Some of that could be attributed to the Rays defense, but I think most of it is just pure luck that could change back next year.

2008-10-23 10:57:16
105.   regfairfield
104 A lot of it is defense. That the same hits per nine that the rest of the team gave up.
2008-10-23 11:18:07
106.   Humma Kavula
Willy Aybar is profiled by the paper of record:

2008-10-23 11:22:09
107.   Zak
I don't understand the benefit of signing Manny for 4/90 with a player opt out after two years. Wouldn't we be able to sign him for just the 4/90? Why give the player an opt out clause. The opt out clause only makes sense if we sign him for 4/70 with 2 years at 23 mill and 2 years at 12 mill or something. Then, after two years he's at the top of his game still, he can get a 3/50 from an AL team. If he sucks, he can stay and get the rest of his money.
2008-10-23 11:25:41
108.   regfairfield
107 So that way we only get Manny for two years. If he's still good, we can evaluate if we want him for his age 40 and above seasons.
2008-10-23 11:25:44
109.   ToyCannon
2008-10-23 11:28:43
110.   ToyCannon
Full and healthy years from Longoria/Upton/Crawford would certainly help in 2009 to keep them at that level. A full year from Price, a 2009 influx from Davis in the rotation and McGee in the bullpen. Maybe more growth from Jackson.

Abreu or Dunn would be excellent additions to this team.

2008-10-23 11:29:41
111.   Humma Kavula
107 I think the idea is that no, Manny won't sign for 4/90 without the opt-out.

Say Manny is offered two contracts:

Yr 1: 27.5M
Yr 2: 27.5M; can opt-out after this year
Yr 3: 22.5M; can opt-out after this year
Yr 4: 22.5M

Total: 100M


Yr 1: 20M
Yr 2: 20M
Yr 3: 25M
Yr 4: 25M
Yr 5: 30M

Total: 120M

Which does he take, the guaranteed extra $20M in the bank or the chance to make so much more if he can keep up his production?

I know which I'd take, but I'm not Manny.

2008-10-23 11:29:53
112.   Bob Timmermann
DT's favorite out of town announcer, Daron Sutton, will be calling ASU basketball games for FSN.

If you read the comments, it seems that the young Mr. Sutton isn't all that popular with the good folk in the Valley of the Sun for his work on DBacks broadcasts.

2008-10-23 11:36:35
113.   D4P
I just went to YouTube to look for a video of the Oregon-ASU basketball game 10 years or so ago that Oregon won despite trailing by 4 points with some 2 seconds remaining and the ball in ASU's possession.

I didn't find what I was looking for.

2008-10-23 11:39:25
114.   Jon Weisman
113 - U2 wrote a song about you.
2008-10-23 11:39:48
115.   Eric Stephen
Didn't USC beat Oregon in similar fashion within the last 10 years or so? I seem to recall Adam Spanich hitting two threes within a five second span or something like that to overcome a 5-point deficit.
2008-10-23 11:40:05
116.   Eric Stephen
Bad? :)
2008-10-23 11:41:14
117.   Eric Stephen
It was Spanich, and it was 1999:

2008-10-23 11:43:42
118.   D4P
It's more fun when your team has an incredible comeback win than when the other team does it to your team.
2008-10-23 11:44:01
119.   ToyCannon
From Ted Green at SportshubLA

This was the starting everyday salary of the team that was on the field for most of Sept:

Russ Martin, $500,000
Andre Ethier, $424,500
Manny, $0 (Boston paid his salary)
James Loney, $411,000
Matt Kemp, $406,000
Casey Blake, $0 (Indians paid)
Blake DeWitt, $390,000
Angel Berroa, $0 (Royals paid).

2008-10-23 11:46:00
120.   D4P
Did they film the video for the song that wrote about me on the streets of some town along the lines of Las Vegas?
2008-10-23 11:47:48
121.   Eric Stephen
It was in downtown Vegas. Everytime I walk down that street I feel compelled to sing that song.
2008-10-23 11:48:52
122.   Zak
108 But, with a player opt out clause, we cannot evaluate whether we want to keep him... only he can decide if he wants to stay. We won't be able to sign him for 4/100 if we have a team opt out clause after two years.

111 I would be surprised if Manny does better than $90 million on a contract this winter. I would think you can get him for 4/90 or if you're in the AL, you might fo 5/100. He is not going to average over 22 million unless he goes 2-3 years.

2008-10-23 11:49:18
123.   D4P
Do you kiss seemingly random women...?
2008-10-23 11:50:42
124.   fanerman
Sigh. What song are you talking about? I'm not familiar with U2 music videos.
2008-10-23 11:52:57
125.   Eric Stephen
Couldn't find video, but here's some info about it.

2008-10-23 11:53:13
126.   Jacob Burch
113. D4P
I just went to YouTube to look for a video of the Oregon-ASU basketball game 10 years or so ago that Oregon won despite trailing by 4 points with some 2 seconds remaining and the ball in ASU's possession.

*I didn't find what I was looking for.(

2008-10-23 11:53:34
127.   Eric Stephen
2008-10-23 11:53:58
128.   D4P
Sigh. What kind of crazy person isn't familiar with U2 music videos (from the late 80s)?

2008-10-23 11:54:03
129.   Jacob Burch
Oh curse my asterisk missing ways.

2008-10-23 11:54:20
130.   Jacob Burch
2008-10-23 11:54:33
131.   Eric Stephen
Only if what I was looking for was a slap to the face!
2008-10-23 11:55:07
132.   Bob Timmermann
It was 4 down with 4 seconds to go. The game was on March 2, 2000.

Arizona State made two free throws with 6 seconds left to take a four-point lead. Oregon threw a 3/4 length of the court pass to Alex Scales who hit a three pointer.

ASU then threw the ball out of bounds and Oregon got the ball back under the ASU basket although the news account says the pass went off of Eddie House's fingers.

Darius Wright hit a 3-pointer as time expired to give Oregon a 76-74 win.

2008-10-23 11:55:39
133.   Jon Weisman felt obligated to pass along the Heyman story.

2008-10-23 11:55:50
134.   Jacob Burch
131 If you told me your dream job at one point was a writer for Pop Up Video, I'd believe it.

Google Ads really, really want me to buy a Ryan Klesko baseball card.

2008-10-23 11:55:52
135.   Eric Stephen
Sure, 5 seconds later counts as a tie. In fantasy land!!!
2008-10-23 11:56:26
136.   Harold M Johnson
If 4/90 gets Manny, I think the Dodgers should definitely do it.
2008-10-23 11:57:29
137.   fanerman
128 I'm sorry. I'll go watch that video for the entire day as penance.
2008-10-23 11:57:57
138.   Eric Stephen
I would love to do that, or eventually be on Best Week Ever or I Love the 80s or something. :)
2008-10-23 11:58:26
139.   D4P
The Dodgers should only sign Manny to a 4-year contract if they are planning a move to the AL or have reason to believe that the MLB is going to institute the DH in the NL in the near future.

Can you imagine Manny in LF in, say, 3-4 years?

2008-10-23 11:58:54
140.   Eric Stephen
Sigh. What kind of crazy person isn't familiar with U2 music videos (from the late 80s)?

I am down with that sentiment.

2008-10-23 11:59:25
141.   Eric Stephen
I've seen Jeff Kent at 2B, so yes.
2008-10-23 12:01:06
142.   Harold M Johnson
139 Manny's not going to go for less then 3 years, so who do you see as the Dodgers' OF next year?
2008-10-23 12:03:00
143.   bhsportsguy
Scareduck may not be happy with this picture.

2008-10-23 12:03:23
144.   Ken Noe
The four year + opt-out clause works for me, as we'd still get the best of Manny before his knees surely head to the AL and another raise in 2011. I'd be happier with a two-year super big money deal.
2008-10-23 12:03:49
145.   fanerman
140 Okay okay okay. =(
2008-10-23 12:03:56
146.   D4P
who do you see as the Dodgers' OF next year

Kemp and Ethier are virtual locks. I wouldn't be utterly shocked if one of Pierre/Jones were given a chance to win the job, assuming they're not both traded. It's not so much that I think Management wants to give one of them a shot, as much as that I'm not convinced that Management will be able to get rid of both of them.

2008-10-23 12:05:02
147.   delias man
I just do not see any team except NYY that can afford to pull this off. In that case, at least he will go back to the AL and not hurt us.

But Minaya does have job security to do whatever he wants.

2008-10-23 12:06:50
148.   bhsportsguy
One of the best concerts I saw back in the 80s was U2 at the Coliseum. They worked hard for their money that night.
2008-10-23 12:08:34
149.   Jon Weisman
148 - Donna Summer sang a song about them.
2008-10-23 12:09:12
150.   Jon Weisman
Fernando Tatis bests Chan Ho Park again!

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-10-23 12:09:27
151.   D4P
U2 rocked Autzen Stadium back in 1997? or so. I could hear the concert from campus. That was during the "Pop Mart" tour, which was either their most popular or least popular tour of all time. You decide.
2008-10-23 12:09:35
152.   bhsportsguy
128 I liked this song more.

2008-10-23 12:11:03
153.   bhsportsguy
149 I never saw her in concert, I did see both early Madonna and Janet Jackson. I also saw Lionel Ritchie but I immediately went to a Billy Joel concert to erase as much of that memory as I could.
2008-10-23 12:11:40
154.   D4P
This is my favorite.

2008-10-23 12:12:06
155.   Sushirabbit
146 - Don't stop thinking about tomorrow.... :-)
2008-10-23 12:13:15
156.   kinbote
151 Concert Thoughts: I saw De La Soul & A Tribe Called Quest at UofO sometime within '93-'95.
2008-10-23 12:13:54
157.   fanerman
152 That's my favorite, too.
2008-10-23 12:16:56
158.   D4P
So, which is U2's best album: The Joshua Tree or Achtung Baby?

In terms of defining the bad, number of titanic anthems, and sheer impact on the music world, The Joshua Tree is the clear winner.

But in terms of song quality from start to finish, I tend to think Achtung Baby is slightly better.

2008-10-23 12:21:57
159.   Tripon

Clint Hurdle wants Jim Tracy as his bench coach! Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!

2008-10-23 12:26:00
160.   Zak
158 I can't access the links that everyone has put up at work, but I agree with you about Achtung Baby. I think One is probably my favorite song of all time and Mysterious Ways is better than almost anything on the Joshua Tree other than With or Without You. I also love All I want is you, but I don't remember what album that one was from.
2008-10-23 12:27:38
161.   Jon Weisman
160 - The "All I Want Is You" from Rattle & Hum gives me chills.
2008-10-23 12:30:05
162.   D4P
Rattle & Hum pretty much defines "hit or miss", with "All I Want Is You" representing a hit.
2008-10-23 12:32:34
163.   trainwreck
Oh, no! U2 Thoughts.
2008-10-23 12:34:49
164.   fanerman
158 The Joshua Tree is kind of the more "timeless" album, which makes it more quintessential I guess. But song for song, I like Achtung Baby better.

161 Me, too.

2008-10-23 12:34:52
165.   D4P
If and when U2 releases a new album, I hope it's a lot edgier than their other recent stuff. I haven't really liked anything since Zooropa. They went all adult contemporary on us.
2008-10-23 12:41:30
166.   Tripon
Rich ( Parker, Co ): Buster, would a package of Hughes, Kennedy, Montero & Jackson get you Lincecum??

SportsNation Keith Law: Don't call me "buster," pal.

And the answer to that is... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

2008-10-23 12:45:08
167.   BlueCrew Bruin

SportsNation Keith Law: Don't call me "buster," pal.

Rich ( Parker, Co ): I'm not your pal, friend!

SportsNation Keith Law: I'm not your friend, buddy!

Rich ( Parker, Co ): I'm not your buddy, guy!

2008-10-23 12:48:21
168.   larry slimfast
I was at Sun Studio in Memphis with my dad during some the recording of Rattle and Hum. I really wasn't mature enough to realize what I was experiencing but I do recall some tracking for "When Love Comes to Town"
2008-10-23 12:51:48
169.   underdog
167 I love Buddy Guy.

158 I'd vote Joshua Tree, but also think very highly of their first few albums, especially War. I like all of those better than any of their more recent works, personally.

I was a senior in HS when I saw U2 on their Joshua Tree tour, with the Pretenders! One of the best concerts I've ever seen.

2008-10-23 12:55:25
170.   Bob Timmermann
After a whole season, the NY Daily News doesn't have a file photo of Fernando Tatis in a Mets cap?
2008-10-23 12:57:55
171.   Marty
I'm not much of a U2 fan. I own War however.
2008-10-23 13:01:32
172.   trainwreck
I like Keith Law even more now.

I'm not your guy, friend!

2008-10-23 13:01:39
173.   Xeifrank
atleast it's not Bruce Springstreen Thoughts Day. Give me a couple days warning of when it is though, so I can plan to be out of the country again.
vr, Xei
2008-10-23 13:03:16
174.   bhsportsguy
173 Xei was born to run.
2008-10-23 13:04:23
175.   Eric Stephen
My favorite U2 songs:

1) Bad
2) Running to Stand Still
3) All I Want Is You
4) One
5) Where The Streets Have No Name
6) With or Without You
7) Love Rescue Me
8) Pride
9) So Cruel
10) Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own

Joshua Tree in a close race over Achtung Baby, with Rattle & Hum and All That You Can't Leave Behind within reasonable distance behind.

2008-10-23 13:04:29
176.   bhsportsguy
173 He could take thunder road or the river.
2008-10-23 13:06:08
177.   Jim Hitchcock
169 re: 167 Oh, hell yeah!
2008-10-23 13:06:29
178.   Xeifrank
Sorry, quick baseball question here then I'll move on. Last night the Rays had a huge infield shift against both Howard and Utley. Utley actually tried to bunt down the third base line one time. My question is why don't these players lay a bunt down the third base line against the shift every time they come to bat. It would almost certainly be an automatic single if they could get the ball in play and far enough away from the pitcher. If nothing else, one or two successful bunts against the shift may cause teams to abandon the shift or atleast move the thirdbaseman back to his regular position with less than two strikes.
vr, Xei
2008-10-23 13:06:38
179.   trainwreck
Abdul Gaddy, come on down! You are the next contestant on the Howland is Right.
2008-10-23 13:07:26
180.   D4P
Xei was born to run

Was he born in the USA? I really don't know...

2008-10-23 13:08:10
181.   regfairfield
178 Because by the time Ryan Howard makes it to first, the third baseman could easily run in and throw him out.
2008-10-23 13:08:28
182.   El Lay Dave
168 Fantastic!

Coincidentally (but not ironically), I have been listening exclusively to U2 during my commuting hours for the past week or so. Achtung Baby, Joshua Tree, War? Flip a three-sided object.

I remember being a college student in 1980 when "I Will Follow" started popping up on the radio and was immediately attracted to it. Bought "Boy" and was hooked.

2008-10-23 13:08:35
183.   Bob Timmermann
Ortiz and Pena drop bunts down from time to time. A lot of time they don't want to do it because they'd rather try to hit a home run. I've never seen Howard bunt against the shift.
2008-10-23 13:11:14
184.   Eric Stephen
I want to learn to play guitar in order to play two things:

1) The solo at the end of All I Want Is You
2) The entire song of Where The Streets Have No Name

2008-10-23 13:11:34
185.   bhsportsguy
178 Ted Williams didn't do it because he felt that his job was to hit the ball out of the yard.

Ty Cobb once wrote Williams to explain how he could hit balls to left.

2008-10-23 13:12:05
186.   Tripon

Bill James predicts that Andy LaRoche will draw 74 walks next year.

2008-10-23 13:12:49
187.   D4P
I would like to play the drums in With or Without You. It doesn't sound that hard as far as drumming goes.
2008-10-23 13:17:18
188.   Bob Timmermann
If you had a choice between getting four bases and a run once every three games or one base a couple times a game, which would you choose?
2008-10-23 13:17:40
189.   Eric Stephen
Dickie V took a T.O. from Rays fandom to announce that a source told him Lute Olson is stepping down at UofA.

Awesome, baby!!!

2008-10-23 13:21:33
190.   Nagman
175 I remember being captivated by the Live Aid performance of "Bad". I was unfamiliar with the song, but liked the Ruby Tuesday excerpt and enjoyed the moment when Bono danced with the girl in the front row.
2008-10-23 13:22:05
191.   bhsportsguy
189 Bob doesn't know of what school you speak of in your post.
2008-10-23 13:22:28
192.   El Lay Dave

Gurnick has a shortish recap/forecast article up. I didn't find it all that interesting, but this caught my eye:

"[Acquiring Manny] was the most spectacular deadline trade in the history of the organization and had the greatest impact of any trade in club history"

Maybe the full impact isn't known until after this offseason's roster reconstruction.

One could argue the following trades may have made more impact:

Mike Piazza - negative impact over a long period of time.
Reggie Smith - hugely instrumental player for the 77-78 World Series teams.

D4P might have another nominee.

2008-10-23 13:22:40
193.   trainwreck
Amy Nelson is on ESPNews right now. Too bad you cannot watch. ; )
2008-10-23 13:24:26
194.   Sushirabbit
178 - I think Bob is right about going for the HR.

Along the same lines, did you think the balls needed 'scuffing' like they did when Lowe was pitching. I didn't hear if that was mentioned in the broadcast because I don't listen to the FOX guys. (I put on Rattle & Hum!).

2008-10-23 13:24:44
195.   Bob Timmermann
I have ended the boycott of the name

I revel in the University of Arizona's shambles of a basketball program now.

Saturday will be the Wildcats traditional "Well, we've been playing over our heads and now we'll get killed" football game.

I hope the USC fans in Tucson storm the field.

2008-10-23 13:27:51
196.   Bluebleeder87

That's one of MANY U2 songs that give me chills. [high 5!]

2008-10-23 13:29:08
197.   das411 for all of the non-U2 and non-Martin-bashing fans here: how about that World Series?
2008-10-23 13:29:53
198.   Sushirabbit
When do the Dodgers have to commit one way or another on Penny's option?
2008-10-23 13:36:22
199.   ToyCannon
I think 7 days after the World Series

FA salary guidelines

2008-10-23 13:37:17
200.   Eric Stephen
Within 7 days after the end of the World Series.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-10-23 13:38:38
201.   Eric Stephen
198 ,199 ,200
The Dodgers still have option decisions to make on Brad Penny and Gary Bennett. Penny has a $9.25 million salary or $2 million buyout. Bennett has a $900,000 option or $50,000 buyout and is expected to be bought out. Penny's option must be exercised within seven days after the end of the World Series, Bennett 10 days after the World Series

2008-10-23 13:42:34
202.   Eric Stephen
The Phillies seem to have mastered the whole "get 7 strong innings from Hamels, have Utley hit a 2-run HR for our first run, and win 3-2 in Game 1" thing.
2008-10-23 13:50:04
203.   bhsportsguy
197 I thought the season ended last Wednesday.

Actually, I think it would add somethng if Lidge were to lose the game tonight.

2008-10-23 13:51:28
204.   bhsportsguy
195 If they pull off the upset, will you approve them running onto the field.

Of course Eric will then have to buy me a shirt so I am not without interest in the result.

2008-10-23 13:55:28
205.   Sushirabbit
I think for $7 mil ($2 mil buyout) you take a chance on Penny. Hopefully they're not that financially strapped.
2008-10-23 13:57:10
206.   silverwidow
Some say Penny's option is 8.75, some say 9.25. Which is it?

It's getting bought out either way, just don't know what he's in line to make.

2008-10-23 13:58:38
207.   Bob Timmermann
The more likely outcome will be Willie Tuitama leaving the field on a golf cart.
2008-10-23 13:58:43
208.   Eric Stephen
Everywhere that I've seen it lately in news reports has $9.25m, so I've taken to trusting that figure.
2008-10-23 14:01:00
209.   Eric Stephen
Because I do not have DirecTV and don't have FSN Prime Ticket, I did not watch last weekend's "game" against WSU, but instead listened to Pete Arbogast's call of the entire 69-0 blowout.

You haven't lived until you've heard his special brand of broadcasting during such a blowout. To my surprise, I believe his "How Do You Do?" quota went unfulfilled.

2008-10-23 14:06:03
210.   cargill06
Question of the day on Keith Law's chat.

Mikey (Philly): Are you angry because you are not allowed to ride all of the rides at an amusement park?

Keith Law: Sorry, I don't know when Tim is chatting.

Elementary humor still always gets me a cheap laugh.

2008-10-23 14:06:03
211.   Kevin Lewis
I am now listening to a mix of U2
2008-10-23 14:09:11
212.   Bob Timmermann
I am going to go out and fly a U2 today.

Smile when I come over your house.

2008-10-23 14:10:40
213.   ToyCannon
I'd bet on them not exercising the option. A year ago at this time he was our ace. For one more year it will be worthwhile to see if he just had basic arm woes and has something left. He will be plenty motivated.
2008-10-23 14:12:30
214.   Icaros
Never was the biggest U2 fan, but my favorite song is the lesser-known "Like a Song" from War.
2008-10-23 14:12:47
215.   scareduck
And I ... I am listening to Whiskeytown.
2008-10-23 14:13:38
216.   Icaros
Pardon me, that should be "Like a Song..."
2008-10-23 14:14:35
217.   Icaros
When you guys are ready to have The Cure thoughts, let me know.
2008-10-23 14:16:39
218.   D4P
I really only know three "The Cure" songs, and I like each one.
2008-10-23 14:20:20
219.   scareduck
13 - They might be Dodgers (boy)
They might be Dodgers
They might be good
They might be bad
They might be Ned Colletti's smoking hand ...

Tabloid footprints in your hair
Simers, Plaschke everywhere
We can't be lodgers
'Cause they might be Dodgers
And what are we going to do unless they are?

2008-10-23 14:21:14
220.   dzzrtRatt
Best album of 2008: Bob Dylan, "Tell Tale Signs." Two discs of unreleased songs and alternate or live versions of songs from 1989-2006. Don't know how many people realize that Dylan is making the best music of his career right now, but this collection drives the point home.
2008-10-23 14:22:18
221.   Bob Timmermann
I think it's time for Looking Glass Thoughts.

Or possibly Terry Jack Thoughts.

2008-10-23 14:23:18
222.   Marty
I'm waiting for Replacements Thoughts
or Stiff Little Fingers Thoughts
or Charles Wright Thoughts
or Minutemen Thoughts
2008-10-23 14:23:44
223.   scareduck
217 , 218 - having never heard "Killing An Arab" before I bought their Greatest Hits album, I was surprised at the warning sticker that came on the wrapper; it was pretty obviously about Camus' existential short story "The Stranger", but I suppose literary background isn't something you can assume.
2008-10-23 14:24:29
224.   scareduck
222 - and now I'm listening to The Refreshments. Not quite the Replacements, but if there was a better band to come out of the 90's, I'd like to know who it was.
2008-10-23 14:27:10
225.   wronghanded
224 Radiohead, Alice in Chains, Rage Against the Machine, Smashing Pumkins, Pearl Jam all come to mind.
2008-10-23 14:27:15
226.   Icaros

My Morning Jacket was late 90s.

2008-10-23 14:30:26
227.   wronghanded
Angel of Harlem and Heartland are 2 of U2's most underrated songs and my favorites.
2008-10-23 14:32:23
228.   fanerman
My favorite album of 2008 is Portishead's "Third." But I don't keep up too well.
2008-10-23 14:33:29
229.   wronghanded
225 Can't forget Face to Face either, the greatest punk band ever IMO.
2008-10-23 14:37:33
230.   scareduck
225 - Smashing Pumpkins and Pearl Jam I might allow... they had a bigger body of work, that's for sure. But anyway, musical tastes are really personal, so arguing over them is kind of silly.
2008-10-23 14:39:46
231.   regfairfield
Didn't the Refreshments do the Friends theme?
2008-10-23 14:40:29
232.   fanerman
231 Off the top of my head, I think that was the Rembrandts.
2008-10-23 14:41:31
233.   regfairfield
232 Okay, that makes Rob's statement way less out of left field.
2008-10-23 14:42:44
234.   Jacob Burch
Tastes aside, not even considering Radiohead seems a foolhardy move.

my favorite 90s albums:
liz phair - exile in guyville
neutral milk hotel -in the aeroplane over the sea
my bloody valentine - loveless
wilco - summerteethradiohead - ok computer
my morning jacket - the tennessee fire

2008-10-23 14:43:30
235.   wronghanded
230 I guess that kind of came off the wrong way because I really like the Refreshments. I love a ton of bands from the 90's but those were the only one's that I'd rank ahead of them, no argument at all if they're your #1 I can see why.
2008-10-23 14:44:06
236.   cargill06
Follow up,

Last week I posted the poll results of which pitcher under the age of 25 would you like to build your team around between; Garza, Lester, Hamels, Kazmir, and Billingsley with Billingsley being dead last (behind Garza? Really?) on the poll. Today they have the same question posted with Billingsley being replaced with Lincecum.

I don't know what this says about myself but this really angers me. Not that people would take Hamels, Lester, Lincecum, Kazmir over Billingsley but the fact that it's not even a debate. I understand most of the general public has no clue what periphals are but Billingsley's periphals are better than everyone on that list not named Lincecum. But look at his career ERA, it's 3.33! He's the Rodney Dangerfield of pitching, just for whatever reason he doesn't appeal to the mass public.

2008-10-23 14:47:29
237.   fanerman
236 Yeah.. His NLCS pitching performance didn't help things, though. I don't mind that Billingsley is under the radar. I don't think he does, either.
2008-10-23 14:50:12
238.   Icaros
Icaros's favorite bands of the 90s, during the 90s:

Cradle of Filth
Morbid Angel
At The Gates
Dark Tranquillity
In Flames

2008-10-23 14:51:22
239.   Harold M Johnson
236 The NLCS is the reason for it. Wait 'til next year!
2008-10-23 14:56:47
240.   Zak
One quick last note about U2. Someone mentioned about their new stuff not as good as the old stuff, and I agree, but there are a couple of songs I really like of the Atomic Bomb CD... Miracle Drug and Crumbs from your table. The latter makes me feel hauntingly guilty.. even days after hearing it sometimes. Overall, I do like that CD although I agree some songs are Adult Comtemporary and I really dislike Vertigo.
2008-10-23 14:58:50
241.   Zak
220 I agree about Dylan. His last two CDs are awesome. I wouldn't go so far as to call them better than some of his earlier work, but they are of a very high standard.
2008-10-23 15:01:29
242.   Marty
238 Wow, I haven't heard of any of them.

I was pretty much already out of the game in the 90's, but my favorite bands/artists were
Uncle Tupelo
Fatboy Slim
Beastie Boys
Janes Addiction

2008-10-23 15:05:53
243.   Icaros

I'd be alarmed if you had. Many of those groups were not available through domestic channels at the time.

2008-10-23 15:06:32
244.   regfairfield
238 I suddenly picture you with much longer hair.
2008-10-23 15:08:30
245.   trainwreck
2008-10-23 15:08:53
246.   Icaros

Interestingly, I never had long hair. I did dye it black once, though, in 1995.

2008-10-23 15:09:05
247.   scareduck
242 - I haven't heard anything by Uncle Tupelo, but Son Volt has had some really good stuff (Driving the View, and most of the stuff off Wide Swing Tremolo).
2008-10-23 15:11:02
248.   Icaros

Ha. That's great.

2008-10-23 15:13:42
249.   trainwreck
There is a better clip in the episode, but I could not find it.
2008-10-23 15:14:40
250.   Jacob Burch
Uncle Tupelo/Son Volt talk without Wilco love makes me sad. Although I probably have No Depression for a lot of the western singer/songwriter stuff I listen to mostly these days (Bonnie 'Prince' Billy, Smog, Neko Case, Songs: Ohia, etc)
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-10-23 15:18:22
251.   scareduck
250 - No Depression is also the name of a magazine that covers Having never heard the album or anything by Wilco, I can't judge, but it's one of those things I would like to get an earful given the subsequent efforts.
2008-10-23 15:18:23
252.   Humma Kavula
234 neutral milk hotel -in the aeroplane over the sea

Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes.

There was a period in my life lasting about six months when I listened to this album and Olivia Tremor Control's Dusk at Cubist Castle over and over and over again.

2008-10-23 15:19:23
253.   scareduck
231 - the Refreshments did the King of the Hill theme.
2008-10-23 15:21:45
254.   Jacob Burch
251 Wilco veers away from Country on more than half of their songs (especially the later stuff), but most of it is simply incredible music. Discounting their last two albums (simply because I haven't given them enough listen), I'd go Yankee Hotel Foxtrot > Summerteeth > Being There > A.M. YHF is in the top five of my favorite Ought albums.

252 I say it with little reservation its my personal favorite piece of art, of any form. A few books come close (Namely Nine Stories by Salinger), but the album has livened the best years of my life and gotten me through the worst. I doubt I'd ever get a tattoo in my lifetime, but if I did, it'd be a reference to that.

2008-10-23 15:22:21
255.   Humma Kavula
250 Songs: Ohia

How does this compare to his stuff as Magnolia Electric Co.? I have Soujourner and I'm very impressed.

2008-10-23 15:24:08
256.   trainwreck
The early 90's will be the last time that popular music is any good.
2008-10-23 15:24:39
257.   trainwreck
2008-10-23 15:25:07
258.   Kevin Lewis
I dyed my hair orange once. This was when I was in a Ska band
2008-10-23 15:27:14
259.   Jon Weisman
I can't believe my lame U2 joke started this whole conversation. Not that I object.
2008-10-23 15:28:23
260.   Jacob Burch
256 In general rock and pop maybe, but Mainstream hip hop can hit a homer two or three times a year.

255 On a per listens basis, his Ohia stuff gets about 3-4 more listens than the Magnolia stuff, and I love MEC. It's a little bit more lofi and darker, and some of the albums are understandably hard to digest (his Voice has more tremble, the songs develop slower, and don't mind sitting in noise). That said, The Lioness, Magnolia Electric Co. (the album by Songs: Ohia, not the band. Thanks for being confusing, Jason) are both incredible, but Axxess & Ace and the live album Mi Sei Apparaso Come Un Fantasma both rank very, very high on my favorite albums lists.

I own his entire discography (Ohia, Jason Molina, and MEC), so feel free to hit me up at jacobburch at gmail dot com if you wanted a sampler.

2008-10-23 15:29:10
261.   regfairfield
256 I think there's some good stuff going on now.
2008-10-23 15:29:11
262.   scareduck
254 - Something you might enjoy:

2008-10-23 15:37:28
263.   trainwreck
I absolutely hate hip hop now. If I ever tend to like a new song it is for comical reasons.
2008-10-23 15:38:00
264.   trainwreck
Which bands/artists do you like out now?
2008-10-23 15:39:49
265.   Kevin Lewis
Big fan of The Decemberists
2008-10-23 15:40:20
266.   regfairfield
Just from the most played list on KROQ:

MGMT, The Bravery, Silversun Pickups, Death Cab, Foo Fighters, Beck. I think we've recovered from the Linkin Park era.

2008-10-23 15:41:00
267.   Jacob Burch
261 It depends on what people allow to be good or not I suppose. I can listen past a lot of the easy-to-critique parts of a Kanye West song and see some absolute genius, but I realize others (my brother is often one) can't. I suppose that's where taste and preference come in, but there has to be some stuff out there that you can't say flat out is just bad.

264 Not at me, but I do agree with reg. This may go with what counts as mainstream or not. I'd consider anything that could play on Letterman or Kimmel mainstream, in which Neko Case, Radiohead, My Morning Jacket, Spank Rock, Feist, Joanna Newsom and Cat Power get nods

2008-10-23 15:43:27
268.   regfairfield
267 Yeah, that stuff's more what I listen to, but some good bands are getting mainstream play.
2008-10-23 15:44:19
269.   wronghanded
Good hip-hop died in the late 90's IMO, it's all about rims, grills and making it rain nowadays. Earth to rappers, nobody cares about the $$$ you make.

BTW, speaking of My Morning Jacket the song "One Big Holiday" has one of the best guitar solos I've heard in an very long time (it lasts about half of the song). Here's the link:

2008-10-23 15:46:42
270.   trainwreck
Well, I like Radiohead.
2008-10-23 15:47:27
271.   trainwreck
Haven't listened to Beck in awhile, but I respect him.
2008-10-23 15:47:56
272.   Kevin Lewis
The latest FJM is quite good.
2008-10-23 15:49:24
273.   Jacob Burch
A lot of the "$$$ hiphop" That is actually good seems to do it simply in a over-zealous, hyperbolic fashion in the vein that people love The Godfather or any anti-hero mold. Granted its done very, very, very poorly most of the time, but just because a rhyme drops Jacob the Jeweler doesn't necessarily mean it's illiterate.

If you think good hip hop died but havne't heard Spank Rock, MFDOOM, Blackalicious, Saul Williams, Ryhmefest, Black Star, or Common then its more result of the bizarre underground/mainstream dichotomy that the internet era has created.

2008-10-23 15:49:28
274.   cargill06
Give me some Dierks Bentley, Keith Urban, or Kenny Chesney and I'm happy.

I like Rascal Flatts too, it's hard to admit that. It's like admitting that you thought some Backstreet Boys/N' Sync songs are catchy.

2008-10-23 15:49:36
275.   Humma Kavula
269 Blackalicious. That is all.
2008-10-23 15:51:17
276.   cargill06
273 I'm down with Common, Kayne is very good lyrically and musically too. John Legand has great stuff but I don't think he is considered hip-hop.
2008-10-23 15:51:31
277.   bferb
I know there is a pretty persistent debate on here about James Loney. Thought I would point out a pretty interesting post today at
2008-10-23 15:52:54
278.   trainwreck
Of those guys though, I would only call Common mainstream and I am not sure Black Star even exists anymore.

There is good hip hop out there that is different like Dalek and Subtle, but I was just referring to mainstream stuff. Whenever I am in my friend's car I hear nothing but Lil Wayne and T-Pain and all that junk.

2008-10-23 15:53:18
279.   Humma Kavula
273 275

Let me speak the opposite of what's hot now /
and make THAT hot

2008-10-23 15:53:22
280.   trainwreck
But all Kanye does is sample from other songs.
2008-10-23 15:54:18
281.   Jim Hitchcock
266 271 I remember the last time I saw Jeff Beck (4,5 years ago?) I wondered out loud about how many people had showed up expecting to see Beck.
2008-10-23 15:54:38
282.   wronghanded
273 I don't think it's entirely dead, I personally love Talib Kweli, overall though the genre is tired and repetitive, kind of like emo/screamo bands, a lot of today's music lacks originality. Their will always be diamonds in the rough but the overall hip hop vibe of the 90's was a lot more introspective.
2008-10-23 15:57:54
283.   Humma Kavula
Can we call Gnarls Barkley hip-hop? They are certainly mainstream. And they're really good.
2008-10-23 16:01:48
284.   underdog
I'd forgotten how good and underrated Beulah was until I just started listening to them again (put a bunch of stuff on my ipod).

Oh and I agree with 252 completely. Had the same experience with NMH and OLT, so much so that I briefly burned out on them both and just about all Elephant 6 stuff until recently revisiting and re-loving it all over again.

Anyone listen to Clap Your Hands Say Yeah? Good stuff.

2008-10-23 16:03:24
285.   Humma Kavula
277 Seems about right to me.

Every one of the Dodger non-pitcher kids has room for improvement, with varying degrees of importance assigned to those improvements.

Most teams don't have a catcher as good as Martin is now, but the dropoff in his SLG is a concern.

Most teams don't have a right fielder as good as Ethier was this year, and similarly, most teams don't have a center fielder as good as Kemp is now. But I think we'd all like to see Kemp develop on his great promise, and I sure hope that Ethier's performance was a put-it-all-together thing and not a fluke thing.

Most teams had a better 1B this year than James Loney was. I root for him, but he needs to step forward or the Dodgers will find somebody else.

Most teams had a better 3B than DeWitt was this year. He needs to improve or he needs to be optioned.

2008-10-23 16:09:30
286.   Izzy
Some fave U2 songs

1. Surrender
2. Unforgettable Fire
3. 40
4. One Tree Hill
5. Yahweh
6. Beautiful Day
7. Still Haven't
8. Pride

2008-10-23 16:11:15
287.   bferb
285 Yea I agree. I was surprised to learn that Loney was last in VORP for national league 1B. Without thinking about the competition or checking myself I would have guessed middle of the pack.
2008-10-23 16:18:46
288.   bhsportsguy
287 I can't argue with the numbers but the Rays are starting a first baseman who had similar if not lower numbers at the same age, I'll grant he hit a few more balls out of the park but that didn't stop him from being released at age 28.
2008-10-23 16:27:31
289.   scareduck
287 - I think he is low-middle of the pack for VORP but he's dead last for VORPr (VORP accumulation rate, IIRC per-game).
2008-10-23 16:29:45
290.   Humma Kavula
288 Well, sure. But how many teams had picked up Carlos Pena, hoping that it would be that year that he would finally break through and make good on all the promise, only to be rewarded with slightly above average results?

The Rangers gave up, the A's gave up, the Tigers gave up, the Red Sox gave up, and then he finally, in his 7th major league season, he went to the Rays and hit like Ted Williams.

2008-10-23 16:32:22
291.   scareduck
266 - for me the golden era of KROQ ended after Clear Channel (or whoever it was) bought them out in 1986/7. And without the Rock-N-Rhythm KNAC to keep them honest (KNAC went all metal a little ahead of that), there wasn't much point anymore.
2008-10-23 16:36:32
292.   Humma Kavula
290 To put it another way, it's possible that Loney will eventually have a 172 OPS+ season like Pena did last year.... at age 29.

Even knowing that the great season was coming, would you be willing to sit through three full years of of mediocre production from 1B to get there?

2008-10-23 16:36:46
293.   Tripon
Dodger outfielder Andrew Lambo is very strong and has good bat speed, but his swing needs some help, particularly the tight two-handed finish that cuts off his power.

-Keith Law

2008-10-23 16:38:13
294.   bhsportsguy
292 What is the average age of the players in tonight's lineup for the Phillies?
2008-10-23 16:39:33
295.   bhsportsguy
294 My point being, we don't what the future holds for any of these guys that the Dodgers have decided are going to be their core group.
2008-10-23 16:43:31
296.   Humma Kavula
294 Touche.

And look, I see your point about Pena: you don't go giving away talent with great promise for nothing. And I'm not suggesting that the Dodgers do that.

I AM suggesting that the production from 1B was lacking last year and that James Loney's best tool in his arsenal is his age... that is, he has time to improve. That is both the easiest result, in that it'll take the question out of the team's hands, and the best result, in that I love rooting for Loney.

I am also predicting (not necessarily endorsing) that if Loney doesn't improve quickly -- like Pena didn't -- some other team will be the beneficiary when he does improve.

2008-10-23 16:43:54
297.   bferb
Its strange, but on a simplistic basis, part of the problem is just that Loney plays 1B where power is expected, and particularly with the recent makeup of the Dodgers, it is needed. Loney is big enough and strong enough, but just doesnt have a powerful swing. Scouts have been saying this for years now. If only he played 2B one would be complaining about him.
2008-10-23 16:45:01
298.   Humma Kavula
I posted 296 before I saw 295.

And I agree entirely with 295. James Loney should be our first baseman every day in 2009. He has time to improve, and we all hope that he will.

2008-10-23 16:47:59
299.   Jim Hitchcock
291 KNAC, in the days of Ron McCoy. What a station.
2008-10-23 16:49:59
300.   ToyCannon
Pena was not worthless while with the Tigers. They released him for reasons I've never understood and he never actually got a shot with Boston or NYY. His OB skills have jumped quite a bit since the move to TB.

Of the teams he played on only two Oakland and Detroit gave him meaningful major league at bats until he landed in TB. If Hee Sop Choi had not gotten hurt in the spring of 2007 who knows what Pena's future might have been. The key was getting the chance after he had been a decent 1st baseman for 3 years running. He didn't become the star the Tigers expected so they discarded him but he was just as good as someone like Casey or Minky who kept finding full time jobs with no problem.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-10-23 16:50:07
301.   D4P
we don't what the future holds for any of these guys that the Dodgers have decided are going to be their core group


2008-10-23 16:52:22
302.   bhsportsguy
Attention Fox and ESPN, Big Game James will not be on TV tonight, he will be on tomorrow night before the next Lakers pre-season game.
2008-10-23 16:52:30
303.   Tripon
300 How does Choi getting hurt affect Pena?
2008-10-23 16:53:22
304.   Eric Enders
I can't believe I missed Uncle Tupelo thoughts. They are among my favorite bands of all time.

The biography of Uncle Tupelo and Wilco by Greg Kot is really good, by the way; I highly recommend it.

2008-10-23 16:55:39
305.   Humma Kavula
He didn't become the star the Tigers expected so they discarded him but he was just as good as someone like Casey or Minky who kept finding full time jobs with no problem.

Well, I never said he was worthless. I said that he never fulfilled his promise, which -- judging by what he's shown he's capable of, he didn't.

And comparing Pena to Casey or Mientkiewicz is precisely my point: I'm not satisfied with that level of production and I sure hope that Loney can out-produce that. He should be given some time to see if he can. But I predict that he won't be given four more years to do so.

2008-10-23 16:55:50
306.   D4P
Was Uncle Tupelo the band that remade that "Gimme the beat boys, and free my soul, I wanna get lost in your rock and roll and drift away" song?

I hated that remake.

2008-10-23 16:58:28
307.   Humma Kavula
306 I believe that was Uncle Kracker.
2008-10-23 16:58:39
308.   Jacob Burch
Uncle Tupelo and Unckle Kracker? Not the same thing.
2008-10-23 16:59:28
309.   Jacob Burch
Kavula~ You have inspired me to start crafting a non-MEC Jason Molina mix, which is almost done. Shoot me at the email above and it is yours! And anyone else, for that matter.
2008-10-23 16:59:33
310.   Eric Enders
306 I think you're thinking of Uncle Kracker. Which is worlds away from Uncle Tupelo.
2008-10-23 17:02:05
311.   dzzrtRatt
It's because Loney is so easily replaced that I think we should stick with him another year to see how his talent develops. It's much easier to walk away from him at any point and replace him than it would be to walk away from someone you've slated as your catcher of the future, or your centerfielder, or your closer.

Conversely, if there's a realistic supposition that Russell Martin might not be the answer, the FO needs to start making moves soon to come up with Plan B. Catchers don't grow on trees. If the rumor-mongering about Martin has any merit, it would obviously have been insane to trade Carlos Santana. So maybe the Santana trade is evidence that Martin's problems seem fixable.

I admit, it's frustrating to see how well Navarro's doing. Martin had, what, a good month while Navarro was injured, thereupon Navarro became expendable for some Tampa junk. That's imprudent. If you've got two promising young catchers (like Anaheim does in Napoli and Mathis), the amount of time you wait to make the decision on which one to keep should be measured in years, not days.

2008-10-23 17:02:53
312.   southbaydodger
Headline on Front page of ESPN:
"Big Game James"

OK, this is going a little too far... We can definitely call Loney this after his grand slam against the cubs, however, the national media (i.e. ESPN) has taken off with this nickname for anyone named James doing anything remotely important. LA should keep exclusive rights to the usage...

2008-10-23 17:06:37
313.   scareduck
311 - So maybe the Santana trade is evidence that Martin's problems seem fixable.

Or that the front office is schizophrenic and reckless when assessing the talent of young players.

2008-10-23 17:08:37
314.   Eric Enders
I am shocked -- shocked! -- to discover that the Dodger front office is schizophrenic and reckless in regards to their young players.
2008-10-23 17:11:58
315.   scareduck
314 - here are your winnings, sir.
2008-10-23 17:27:34
316.   dzzrtRatt
Aren't there supposed to be some smart folks in the front office? Am I supposed to imagine Logan and Kim were reduced to hanging passive-aggressive Post-It notes off Ned's computer to stop him from trading Santana?
2008-10-23 17:28:37
317.   ToyCannon
Choi and Pena were both NRI's for Tampa in the spring of 2007. At one point Choi seemed to have the edge on making the team when he got hurt. That is my recollection, it could be wrong.

Ty Wiggington started the year as the starting 1st baseman and Pena got some game time in a job share. When Iwamura got hurt Wiggy moved to 3rd and Pena took the job. When Iwamura came back, Wiggy eventually moved to 2nd and that is how Upton became a CF. Then they traded Wiggy.

Without Choi or Wiggy getting hurt who knows where Pena would be. No one gave him a chance in 2006, who's to say he would have gotten another one.

2008-10-23 17:32:05
318.   ToyCannon
Eric we missed you during the post season run. Did you stay away on purpose?
2008-10-23 17:40:06
319.   scareduck
316 - the problem I have with the "smart folks" theory is how eager Logan White was to jump on the trade-for-Manny bandwagon, and the loss of Wesley Wright to the Rule 5 draft.
2008-10-23 17:40:30
320.   Eric Enders
318 Nah, I was just really busy. And traveling part of the time. One of those periods when I was reading all of Jon's stuff, but didn't have time to participate in the threads. I did pop in for an odd comment every now and then.
2008-10-23 17:44:26
321.   Tripon
319 Looking like losing Morris is going to hurt more than LaRoche will.
2008-10-23 17:45:42
322.   bhsportsguy
320 Are you still coming to LA tomorrow?
2008-10-23 17:48:50
323.   dzzrtRatt
319 But Logan was right. I don't think he threw LaRoche under the bus easily, but this was one of those rare times when you mortgage (some of) the future -- especially if the future is not living up to its potential. If LaRoche had ever impressed during a stretch of major league games, I assume Logan would have nixed the trade.
2008-10-23 17:49:25
324.   Eric Enders
322 No, I'm afraid that'll have to wait. After not attending a game at Dodger Stadium for 21 years, I promised myself I'd go to the next World Series game that's played there. Hopefully that's in 2009.
2008-10-23 17:51:28
325.   FirstMohican
Yeah i dont see how supporting a trade for Manny makes Logan any less smart than he was percieved to be. His comments about LaRoche were taken out of context.

Also, why is Logan getting blame for Wright? Is he in charge of rule 5 roster manuevering?

2008-10-23 17:51:54
326.   Eric Enders
Has any coach or manager ever had a swifter fall from grace than Lute Olson? Two years ago he was a universally respected and beloved Hall of Famer. Now he's a crazy, vindictive, unemployed old man with a seemingly tenuous grip on reality.
2008-10-23 17:54:25
327.   Eric Enders
Wouldn't DeJon Watson have more of a role than White in providing scouting reports on the Rule 5-eligible minor leaguers?

Anyway, not protecting Wright was unequivocally a mistake -- and we all said it at the time -- but it's not the kind of thing that wrecks franchises. He's just a LOOGY, after all.

2008-10-23 18:05:56
328.   Johnny Nucleo
All this talking down of Russell Martin is ridiculous.

311 Would you really have kept Navarro through 2006, 2007, and 2008?
Would you have wanted Navarro over Martin after Navarro's OPS+ of 70 last year (with an OBP of 286 and Martin's 2007 OPS+ of 113?
I'll give fifty bucks* to the person who said that they thought Navarro was a better long-term bet than Martin sometime during the 2007 season.
And I remember very well the incessant whining on DT about Navarro's poor hitting during the 2006 season and how happy we all were when Martin came in and caught fire. Martin has been great for us. He's our catcher. And we were never going to get much in return for Navarro in 2006 at the time because he had not shown much evidence that he would hit well enough to be more than a league-average catcher. So could people please stop whining about losing Navarro? He's a good catcher, granted, but to say in 2008 that we shouldn't have traded him so quickly while neglecting his 2006 and 2007 performances is expecting perfect foresight.

*Not really, but you get the point.

2008-10-23 18:08:17
329.   cargill06
Look at James Shields splits in high leverage situations. It's by far worse than any other leveraged situations. Just goes to show if you just make up cute stuff the media will run with it without cross referencing it.

We should make up a new nickname, Hiroki "Road Warrior" Kuroda

2008-10-23 18:13:10
330.   Tripon
Russell Martin OPS+
2006: 101
2007: 113
2008: 106

Dioner Navarro OPS+
2006: 79
2007: 70
2008: 98

To put it in perspective. Martin did regress this year, but despite that he still had the better offensive year over Navarro. Mostly due to the walks Martin has produced. Only 34 walks for Navarro to Martin's 90 walks he amassed in 2008.

2008-10-23 18:14:54
331.   dzzrtRatt
328 Would I have kept Navarro? Maybe. In any event, I would have treated him like a very valuable asset, and only traded him if compelled to do so to fill a need with a quality player.

I'm not talking down Russell Martin. I like him a lot. I figure the team and he will figure out how to better optimize his contribution to the team in 2009. What's been said about him losing favor with the Dodgers is, I assume, another case of 0 , i.e. thinly sourced falsitude.

I'm just saying, trading Navarro was done too casually. There was no urgent need to shed him, but at the time he was traded, it was as if Martin's arrival meant Navarro simply had to be gotten rid of, as if it would have been a quarterback controversy type of scenario if they'd hung onto him.

2008-10-23 18:17:32
332.   ToyCannon
Watching your long time wife die of cancer can have some side effects. Maybe he was always a bit crazy and she kept him in touch with reality.
2008-10-23 18:18:34
333.   ToyCannon
It was very urgent to get that left handed basketball player.
2008-10-23 18:19:03
334.   Bob Timmermann
Maybe that was the case with my dad.
2008-10-23 18:19:20
335.   bhsportsguy
331 One thing to remember about the Angels, Mike Scioscia cannot have too many catchers on his roster. I think it was because they kept Josh Paul on the roster, they dropped Bobby Jenks. Or Turnbrow.
2008-10-23 18:20:43
336.   Eric Enders
328 "I remember very well the incessant whining on DT about Navarro's poor hitting during the 2006 season"

Given that Navarro didn't hit poorly for the Dodgers in 2006, I find that extremely hard to believe. I do recall Navarro having some defensive troubles during the first part of that season though.

The criticism of the Navarro trade isn't some sort of "hindsight is 20-20" thing. Navarro was a great young prospect. He's younger than Martin and when they were coming up through the minors Navarro was considered the far better prospect. Even at the time of the trade, people here called it a terrible trade and a waste of a good resource.

Also, you're harping on Navarro's stats from his poorest season when every other season in his major and minor league career showed him to be a hitter of considerable promise.

I don't think anyone was clamoring to keep Navarro over Martin, but there was nonetheless consternation, even at the time, that Navarro was given away for nothing when he could unquestionably have fetched something useful in a trade.

2008-10-23 18:24:40
337.   fanerman
I recall the mine gripe about trading Navarro was what we got back in return. Many people were quite happy to keep Martin (and why shouldn't they be?).

Keeping both Navarro and Martin probably would have been unreasonable (though Jon did argue to keep both so that they'd both be fresh all the time). Trading one made sense. But who'd we get back?

2008-10-23 18:24:52
338.   Tripon
336 I don't know if Navarro was considered the 'far better prospect', I do remember chatter that when Navarro was traded, it was because the Yankees didn't see him as a great prospect. Of course this was counter balanced by DePo trading for Navarro because he saw value in him.
2008-10-23 18:25:14
339.   fanerman
337 "mine" should be "main."
2008-10-23 18:25:43
340.   bhsportsguy
336 I think my only quibble with that is that the one thing he doesn't possess, power would have hurt in terms of his trade value.

Maybe he could have gotten more than what was received but he never would have been a showcase guy.

2008-10-23 18:27:18
341.   Tripon
338 When the Yankees traded Navarro in the RJ to Yanks trade.
2008-10-23 18:28:25
342.   bhsportsguy
341 Do the words, salary dump also apply.
2008-10-23 18:29:41
343.   Tripon
June 27, 2006: Traded by the Los Angeles Dodgers with a player to be named later and Jae Weong Seo to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Toby Hall, Mark Hendrickson, and cash. The Los Angeles Dodgers sent Justin Ruggiano (July 19, 2006) to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays to complete the trade.

2008-10-23 18:41:16
344.   Johnny Nucleo
336 Dodger thoughts, April 25, 2006 "Dioner Becomes Electra" and May 19 "Dioner Demotion Delayed" provide some perspective.

"Incessant whining" was probably a Rule 6 on my part. I'd downgrade that to "a fair amount of griping".

2008-10-23 18:55:23
345.   scareduck
328 - And we were never going to get much in return for Navarro in 2006 at the time because he had not shown much evidence that he would hit well enough to be more than a league-average catcher. So could people please stop whining about losing Navarro?

Only when the Dodgers stop throwing away valuable young players for dubious rentals. Or to be more blunt about it, where are Jae Wong Seo, Toby Hall, and Mark Hendrickson these days?

2008-10-23 18:59:38
346.   bhsportsguy
345 Where are Joel Guzman,Sergio Pedroza, and Chuck Tiffany?
2008-10-23 19:01:23
347.   Tripon
Joel Guzman might get a ring.
2008-10-23 19:04:48
348.   El Lay Dave
343 "June 27, 2006: Traded by the Los Angeles Dodgers with a player to be named later and Jae Weong Seo to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Toby Hall, Mark Hendrickson, and cash. The Los Angeles Dodgers sent Justin Ruggiano (July 19, 2006) to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays to complete the trade."

Apparently, this "selling" the prospect to cover (part of) the contract process didn't start with Carlos Santana. According to Cot's Baseball Contracts (see sidebar), the cash amount was $1M, and Hendrickson's contract was $1.95M that year, so that seems like the remainder of his contract.

2008-10-23 19:07:11
349.   Tripon
348 Santana was a much better prospect than Navarro. What we should have done is demanded one of the Rays prospects, instead of trading for Toby Hall. Why Hall, if we were calling up Martin?
2008-10-23 19:08:22
350.   scareduck
346 - "where is Edwin Jackson" is a better question. Certainly, Julio Lugo, Lance Carter, and Danys Baez aren't with the Dodgers, and the latter two are out of baseball.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-10-23 19:09:57
351.   Johnny Nucleo
345 At one time, we could have traded Greg Miller, Joel Hanrahan, and Edwin Jackson for a big bat. And it probably would have worked out in our favor, all things considered.
2008-10-23 19:12:47
352.   Bob Timmermann
Danys Baez is still on the Orioles roster.

It's close to being out of baseball, but Baltimore still has a team.

2008-10-23 19:14:49
353.   D4P
Looking back, it's hard to believe that Baez ERA-plussed 103 for us, and WHIPped 1.289.
2008-10-23 19:16:57
354.   The Trolley Dodger
Late to the party...

1. Joshua Tree > Achtung Baby. Both are excellent.

2. I also saw U2 at the Coliseum on the Joshua Tree tour -- an amazing concert. IIRC the field had tons of folding chairs, with every one standing on them. I remember stepping down for a second, and the bass stopped compressing my ribcage since it was blocked by all the other bodies.

3. There is a ton of great hip hop still being made -- you just won't hear it on the radio. Check out anything on the indy Definitive Jux or Babygrande labels for starters.

4. The 90s were awesome for music, if only for the death of the processed cheese food product known as pop metal.

5. Sign CC, sign Manny, trade JP to the White Sox or Reds, trade Andruw to whoever will take him, and see if Beltre can be pried out of Seattle. Then let's see what November brings. ;)

2008-10-23 19:18:13
355.   bhsportsguy
351 You always run a risk, that is why for years the Angels didn't trade anyone.
2008-10-23 19:22:21
356.   scareduck
352 - ah, you're right. I saw his B-Ref page ended at 2007 and figured Baltimore had cut him.
2008-10-23 19:22:43
357.   El Lay Dave
349 And Casey Blake had a bigger contract; Santana brought in $2M. As for Hall, someone had to be the backup catcher. The only other players to catch for LA in 2006 were Sandy Alomar Jr. (age 40 and traded a month later) and Einar Diaz (for one inning, his last in the majors).
2008-10-23 19:33:10
358.   El Lay Dave
Toby Hall's contract was for $2.25M, so the $1M the Dodgers received could be considered to be paying for ~50% of each of Hall and Hendrickson for remainder of that season.
2008-10-23 19:52:17
359.   Tripon
Greg (Los Angeles, CA): how does clayton kershaw stack up against price? i know there's a gap, but how big is it?

ROB NEYER: Kershaw's a Grade A prospect, a two-or-three-per-year sort of prospect. Price is A+, a once-every-three-or-four-years prospect.

2008-10-23 19:54:48
360.   kinbote
Jacob Burch--You said enough interesting things about Wilco (& Salinger) that you piqued my interest in "Nuetral Milk Hotel"--I've never even heard of their album. I'm in the information gathering phase of my decision-making process. As for the last two Wilco albums, I strongly recommend "Sky Blue Sky." It's a cousin of "Being There" (which I would put #2 to YHF though I do like "Summerteeth") and marks a strong return after a subpar--I think--"A Ghost is Born." Thanks for flying your aeroplane past my radar screen.
2008-10-23 19:58:17
361.   herchyzer
Howard stinks!
2008-10-23 20:02:41
362.   El Lay Dave
361 World Series game thread is at The Griddle! (Over there, it's "Price is good".)
2008-10-23 20:23:40
363.   Gen3Blue
OK check Price vs. Kershaw in five years, and if both have been healthy, we will see what Neyer knows. ( And it is always hard to see what these "knowers" really know).
2008-10-23 20:29:04
364.   El Lay Dave
359 In the 2000s, only six ML pitchers have pitched over 100 innings in their age 20 seasons:

Clayton Kershaw 2008 - 104 ERA+, 107 2/3 IP
Felix Hernandez 2006 - 98, 191
Zack Greinke 2004 - 120, 145
Jeremy Bonderman 2003 - 77, 162
C.C. Sabathia 2001 - 102, 180 1/3
Rick Ankiel 2000 - 134, 175

2008-10-23 20:38:21
365.   Tripon
364 191 innings for Felix Hernadez? Are the M's trying to kill him?
2008-10-23 20:38:21
366.   Tripon
364 191 innings for Felix Hernadez? Are the M's trying to kill him?
2008-10-23 20:39:56
367.   scareduck
365 - I certainly hope so.
2008-10-23 20:45:10
368.   Tripon
367 Angels fan.
2008-10-23 20:46:32
369.   El Lay Dave
365 His Majors/Minors combined IP:

2003 - 69
2004 - 149
2005 - 172 1/3
2006 - 191
2007 - 190 1/3
2009 - 200 2/3

Who knows what he threw in winter ball or extended spring training or such things, but the one big jump is first to second year; the 2004 to 2006 increases look reasonable.

2008-10-23 21:00:17
370.   Eric Stephen
I haven't decided whether or not I like the new TNT score graphics. I think I like them, but it's still early.
2008-10-23 21:02:09
371.   Johnny Nucleo
360 A fair amount of their stuff is on YouTube so you can have instant gratification.
2008-10-23 21:30:49
372.   68elcamino427
Nails it again.
To say the least.
2008-10-23 21:57:25
373.   herchyzer
372 311 . Agreed to by many, expressed as succinctly by few (or whatever that was Pope used to say).
2008-10-23 22:17:32
374.   Eric Enders
Another important aspect of the Navarro discussion that's almost always overlooked: We had awful, awful, awful backup catchers in 2007 and '08, and that's one of the things that has contributed to Martin getting worked to the bone both years.

A lot of people say, "well, it's only the backup catcher so who cares?", which is a response I fail to understand. Baseball games are won at the margins. Everything counts. Lieberthal, Bennett, and Ardoin collectively OPS+ed about 55 in almost 200 plate appearances. That's a huge waste, considering that a gigantic upgrade was available in-house for free.

Martin played 155 games this year. 155! That's insane. No team's starting catcher should ever play 155 games. And the reason he was forced to do it was because we gave away Navarro for nothing.

I also don't find the argument credible that one of the two had to be traded. That's tortured logic at its worst. You have a choice between having a good backup catcher and a bad one, and you go out of your way to choose the bad one? It makes no sense to say, "this guy's too good, we need to get rid of him and find somebody crappier."

2008-10-23 22:30:15
375.   Bob Timmermann
I miss David Ross now.
2008-10-23 22:30:49
376.   68elcamino427
Excellent observations.
Little did we know at the time that this was the pattern which was to follow.

"Free Money" now in lieu of minor league player development money for a somebody crappier PVL.

The blame for this all rests on the shoulders of Gary Bennett.

2008-10-23 23:01:28
377.   scareduck
374 - the counterargument -- and believe me, I am not seriously advancing it, only repeating it -- is that Navarro had to be sent out becaues he was good enough to be a starting catcher. I find this unconvincing at two levels:

1) At the time of his trade, he still had options, and
2) So what if he ended up fighting for playing time?

The cost of the Navarro trade indeed has been probably 20-30 games to Martin, and all the miles that implies.

2008-10-23 23:04:05
378.   fanerman
360 I'm another huge "In The Aeroplane Over The Sea" fan. Get it!
2008-10-23 23:11:37
379.   Tripon
377 the counter counter argument to that is the Angels situation with Napoli, and Mathis. Napoli is probably the better player but Soscisca loves Mathis for some reason. But I guess the Angels could have picked the wrong player to trade.
2008-10-23 23:14:29
380.   dzzrtRatt
What do the Dodgers (or any team) owe a prospect that they project as a backup? Let's just say the Dodgers decided Martin and Navarro were both #1 catchers, and decided to hang onto both of them, indefinitely, for the good of the team. Maybe as a result, Navarro never gets to be seen as a starting catcher. However, when he plays, he plays well, giving Martin lots of time to rest. Or: perhaps Navarro is spurred to make the most of his playing time and becomes the preferred catcher, but with Martin backing him up.

Both catchers are young and under team control at reasonable prices, and the players can't really say anything about it for the first few years. What's wrong with the Dodgers doing that? Would they be criticized for holding Navarro back? Why should that matter to the team? By trading Navarro, they've paid more and gotten less. It's irrational.

2008-10-23 23:20:30
381.   LAT
380. By trading Navarro, they've paid more and gotten less. It's irrational.

I could be a GM. Lord knows that's how I've managed my 401K.

2008-10-23 23:23:03
382.   scareduck
380 - ask the Angels, who seem to have held on to two (purported, in one case) starting catchers.

381 - Branch Rickey? Theo Epstein? Brian Sabean? Brian Cashman? Steve Phillips? Kevin Malone?

2008-10-23 23:27:59
383.   Bob Timmermann
Now I really miss David Ross.
2008-10-23 23:30:07
384.   Tripon
380 I don't think anyone realized the going rate for catchers would skyrocket by 2007/2008. Who knew that you could get Lastings Milledge for Brian Schneider?
2008-10-23 23:52:46
385.   LAT
Someone offered me two tickets to tomorrow's Breeders Cup at Santa Anita. Let me think: Breeders Cup or work. Breeders Cup or work. Breeders Cup or work.

Hey, at least I have to pretend like it's a tough decision.

2008-10-24 00:10:51
386.   LoneStar7
312 so if Jamie Moyer manages to toss a great game tomorrow..what are the chances ESPN tries to pull off "Big Game Jamie"
2008-10-24 00:39:44
387.   Tripon,0,4005906.column

Dodgers Column by Simers.

2008-10-24 00:41:00
388.   Tripon
IRELAND & MASON had Frank McCourt on the radio, and when they asked about Manny Ramirez, the owner repeatedly referred to Ramirez as "the player," rather than by name. He's already forgotten the guy's name?

An Internet report has the Dodgers preparing a two-year deal approaching $27 million a year for Ramirez, knowing full well he won't take it. But it will give the owner a chance to say he tried to make the player rich, but he couldn't force him to take it.

Ramirez has said he's interested in a six-year deal, his way of joking, but always with a hint of truth attached. This will most likely be his final contract, so he's looking for at least four years.

The owner knows that, but the owner will be offering the player two years so the Dodgers don't have to sign him.

Wonder if "the fans" buy it.

2008-10-24 04:47:20
389.   Eric Enders
Just saw that Taylor Swift is doing the national anthem for Game 3. Ugh. With all the great music coming out of Philadelphia, you'd think they could have found someone better than that. How about Marah for Game 3, The Roots for Game 4, and Hilary Hahn for Game 5? That would have been a sweet lineup with three very different genres.
2008-10-24 05:04:03
390.   herchyzer
380 . Or perhaps the D's could have had Martin playing a lot of third base by now, thereby keeping both bats in the lineup with everyone fresh. If all that started becoming too complicated, one or the other player might then have been traded for a lot of talent. Aaah, what might have been.
2008-10-24 06:22:09
391.   Penarol1916
389. You're right, but none of those three acts could have gotten my 10-year old daughter to actually watch a world series game.
2008-10-24 07:51:32
392.   delias man
391 Penarol - Have you ever used the Buquebus ferry to BA? I am going in a couple weeks, and was curious if the experience will be smooth or a major headache.
2008-10-24 08:01:40
393.   Dodger Dawg
It's not that the Dodgers traded Navarro, it's just that they traded him before knowing what he was really capable of, that and the garbage they got back. It kind of seems management keeps making the same mistakes over and over, see E Jackson, Santana, etc.
2008-10-24 08:11:01
394.   LogikReader

I don't know why, but that passage makes a lot of sense. I would not be surprised at all to see the McCourts posturing to make it seem like he tried when he really didn't.

My guess is, they just don't want to give Manny 4 years, but they'd be more than happy to land Joe Crede to a 6 year contract! Ugh.

2008-10-24 08:19:21
395.   Jon Weisman

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