Morning open chat! I already ate lunch. Well, I guess it's always morning somewhere.

Part of me is starting to actually feel sorry for Bonds. (Of course, then the rest of me slaps that errant portion back into reality.)

Unrelated topic, but a very well-written piece about DePodesta and other smart guys working in baseball in the Harvard Crimson...

http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article507550.html

Here's hoping that Bonds' antibiotics give him a wicked case of the runs.

Why all the hatred for Bonds? You mean he's the only guy doing steroids or is it because he's a Giant? I think we as regular people have no idea of the level of competition in professional sports, and the purpose of doing steroids is to compete and stay with those who are doing them as well. I think it's pretty cheap for us to win without facing the best our opponents have to offer, but I'll take it.

I hope Barry Bonds never hits another major league home run again.

Get well Barry!

vr

Xei

#4,

It's all of the above. Because he's been on steroids. Because he's a giant. Because he's bonds. Another reason may be because most "haters" picked the giants to win the west despite the injury to bonds. Another because he's chasing Ruth and Aaron.

I'm sure most people here don't want to wish the worst for any player. But I'm sure if all of us made a list of players we hate (on this board), barry would be at the top of nearly every one.

Speaking only for myself, I hold the steroid thing against Bonds not one iota. It's him being a Giant that offends me.

If you hate him for being a Giant, I can totally accept that. If you hate him for doing steroids, I think that's ludicrous. There are a few Dodgers (cough Gagne cough), who may be steroid users, and I don't hold it against them. It's hard to understand the athlete's perspective, but these are people who would kill themselves in order to win.

Re: #4 and #8

Bonds + Giants + Steroids = True Axis of Evil.

I'm still waiting for Barry to jump off that bridge like he promised.

That's the first time I've seen Gagne accused of using steroids, even obliquely. I see no reason to suspect him of using, not that I care if he does.

I guess I'm one of the few baseball fans who has no moral outrage over steroids whatsoever, and who thinks that what people put in their body is their business.

I do think the steroid controversy is one of the worst things ever to happen to baseball -- not the steroids themselves, but the lynch mob mentality they seem to have produced.

Hasn't the steroid issue been covered ad nauseum here already? On a better (or at least funnier) note, I actually laughed this morning when Jim Rome said this:

"Remember when Kevin Malone signed Kevin Brown to that long-term deal and a bunch of people asked what it would be like when he was forty and making $16 mil? Now we know."

I enjoy Bond's problems because he's a Giant and because he's a miserable human being off the field as well.

But I am equally enjoying what's going on over at YankeeTown. I was reading the comments at Bronx Banter and there was one really good one from a Johnny C:

This is not meant as a glowing endorsement of either Brian Cashman or George Steinbrenner and the way they've managed the roster of this team, especially in the last 4 years. However, certain facts and an undeniable series of events scream out for emphasis. To get perspective on how and why Kevin Brown is here and others are not, remember that from 2001 through 2004, Brian Cashman provided, among others, a young lefty with hard-to-hit stuff if not command (Lilly), a 26 year old righthander on the rise (Weaver), an early 30's righty with great stuff that need to be harnessed (Contreras), and a 27 year old righty (Vasquez)who was headed for a good if not spectacular season before the second half turned him into jelly. Because Torre and Stottlemyre totally botched the handling of every single one of these major league caliber+ pitchers, reducing their trade value as well as destroying any hope they could ever contribute to the team, we now have Kevin Brown, Jaret Wright, Carl Pavano, an aging Mike Mussina, no middle relief, and had to rape our farm system of its remaining viable prospects to obtain Randy Johnson. Great work if you can get it, eh, Joe?

I love it

Eric I've seen on baseball primer several times people think he has taken steroids because of his dramatic weight gain a few years ago. When he first came up, he was a lot thinner than he is now. I personally don't think he's done steroids because it looks like most of that weight gain is fat and not muscle. I've also read on the LA times that his workout regimen is very lax, something a steroid user wouldn't do.

I enjoy Bond's problems because he's a Giant and because he's a miserable human being off the field as well.
----------

Never having spent much time with Barry off the field, I can't say I know for sure what kind of human being he is. What's he like, Marty?

Wife batterer, tax evader is what I've read. Maybe it isn't true, but I believed it.

Look... the reason we really like or hate certain athletes is always going to be subjective and irrational. and that is ok.

I think anyone could make a good case of why to hate barry. probably just as many people could make a good case about why to love barry.

to me, it all comes down to what is great about sports. It's the one area in life where you can feel totally guiltless having completely irrational feelings for or against some one or some thing.

in religion, politics, business, etc... we are "supposed" to have logic behind why do things, feel things, etc. In sports, it's ok to be irrational. I hate the giants and love the dodgers. Why? because I grew up in LA and my family loved the dodgers.

that is why, for me, sports is such a great relaxer. I don't have to justify why I feel a certain way. I just do.

Long live gagne. Down with Barry. Hurrah.

Not to make too much of a discussion about Gagne and steroids, but I remember reading that he had some sort of eating disorder when he was younger due to stress and/or family issues (or perhaps he was trying to get modeling gigs on the side).

The increase in weight gain was supposedly a result of him actually eating again, and keeping the food down once he swallowed it.

If the guy's taking steroids, it doesn't look like he's on a weightlifting program to accompany them.

I don't think any one of us knows what kind of person he is off the field. But I don't think it's a stretch to deduce that he is a miserable person just by watching how he deals with the media for years. Also, that bizarre soap opera with Gary Sheffield (the ill-forsaken off-season training regimen) has me worried for his mental well-being.

should clarify... obviously you can cross the line and turn hate/love for a sports team or fan into something where you actually do dumb stuff. but short of that... its what sports is all about. why fret?

Eric Gagne looks like a big fat tub of lard.

#21

and isn't it great? its like when charles barkley was playing in the nba. someone who wasn't looking like a michelangelo statue. kind of refreshing.

...what people put in their body is their business.

So we have a bunch of players who are in the league for, oh, as long as their dried out rubber band tendons can last. That's not entertainment to me, that's sad.

We might as well have pinch runners on PCP.

We might as well have pinch runners on PCP.

Remember Donell Nixon?

Personally I've never understood hating a rival team. The Giants have broken our hearts, the Dodgers have broken theirs. It seems to me that great rivalries are best enjoyed as one aspect of a great game. Along those lines I've always enjoyed watching Barry play. Sure he is a jerk, and sure he plays for the Giants (and I'll heckle him every change I get), but this guy is amazing. How can you like baseball and not appreciate the things that he has done? Are you saying you only like Dodger baseball? Really?

I'm starting to worry that if Eric Enders doesn't get some sleep, he won't be back on Dodger Thoughts until the All-Star Break.

Off Topic-

My wife just had a baby shower & brought back about 20 "onesies" with Red Sox & Celtics Logo's. I must respond in kind. Can anybody help direct me somewhere?

George

I hope Eric's insomnia doesn't have anything to do with the recent un-banning of ephedrine.

Horseshoe-

My wife and I are due in less than 2 weeks. Congrats to you. Dodger baby gear can be found at Babies R Us in the greater LA area, and of course, at the Top of the Park gift store.

Funny thing is we've got tons of that stuff, and my wife's family (from Maine) has yet to come through with any Red Sox items.

Valentin is going on the DL - update in progress above.

Jacob- Thank you. Pending Congratulations! My issue is, being in NYC, I'm relying on my folks & have had poor success online to date.

I'm a little disappointed with the decision to call up Edwards -- I'd like to see Robles get a chance. That guy impresses me a whole lot.

Blue Horseshoe...

same boat. I'm just outside NYC. all I can find is yankee and redsox stuff for upcoming baby #3. Online has been crummy for dodger stuff (though it's been a while since I last checked). I just can't have my kids grow up with only AL East propoganda. what to do...

I've definitely heard the Gagne - steroids thing before, a little bit at least. I remember him getting asked about it a couple of years ago, when he made his leap forward (2002, I guess). His response was something like, "No, of course not. Everyone asks me about this because I added 5 mph to my fastball. That's not a big deal, lots of guys do that."

Well, once again Dodger Thoughts has beaten me into submission. Less than a day away from the computer and wham -- 4 new posts and somewhere near 600 comments. Yowsa.

Anyhow, I tried to look at last night's game thread, but I just don't have time. Please indulge me a comment and a question, and I forgive if these points are covered elsewhere. Comment: Saracens also had Damon Buford in the bigs, I believe. I didn't see him in the initial mentions, though he well may have come up downthread. Question: From Gameday it looks like Weaver gave up no SBs. Was he doing anything different, and/or did the Nationals even try to run against him?

Tonight, thanks to the Wonders of ESPN2, the game is on here in DC. About 60 feet from my backdoor is an Irish Bar part-owned by Walter Johnson's grandson, Hank Thomas. If the sleeping children align just right, I hope to be there watching the game. (If they align just wrong, I expect I'll be online part of the time with you all.)

Yeah, that's right about Damon. Damon's brother Daryl was in my class, but he transfered to Birmingham.

So does Jeff Kent need a rest? I ask because I think he does. We've backups behind backups at every position except 2b. Bradley took a day off when he started to struggle and it seemed to do him wonders.

Shorter version of this post: why not call up someone who can play 2b to relieve Kent?

That's a good question. Well, there's an off day Thursday...

The callup of Edwards makes me think that Gagne is coming back sooner than later. And then, after his suspension is over, perhaps Antonio Perez arrives.

#32: My assumption is that the Dodgers' agreement with the Mexican League is that if they bring up Robles, they'll keep him up. Since this is only a stopgap situation until Perez & Valentin are back, Robles likely does not make sense. Though, if things with Nakamura don't work out, I'd like to see Robles brought up to fill Nakamura's spot for the season.

I checked the Dodgers 40-man roster:
http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/roster_40man.jsp?c_id=la
and Mike Edwards isn't currently on it. So, to bring him up, they'd need to move someone else off the roster, right? I'd hate to lose another prospect in order to bring up Mike Edwards.

Regarding the bullpen size, aren't we currently at 12 pitchers? So, even with being short-handed for 2 days by adding Gagne and most likely demoting Schmoll, wouldn't that leave us with 11 pitchers? The following 6 would be the relievers available for those two days: Brazoban, Carrara, Alvarez, Sanchez, Wunsch, and Houlton.

Ah. The off day. Well, there you have the day of rest.

You wanna know what's more embarassing than not checking the schedule before posting #37? I'm glad you asked.

My first game was this past Sunday. I'm with the guys at work who are providing comp tix because I'm a huge baseball fan. They think I know it all.

I get in the stands and I'm yelling, "Let's go, Sean." I did that a few times. People started to look at me a little funny.

That's because I thought Scott Erickson was on the mound and I had somehow mixed up his name with Sean. Of course, it wasn't Erickson but Derek Lowe on the hill.

Yes, my wife is very, very concerned that I don't have life insurance.

I was also very impressed with Robles but Jon made the point that they wanted someone to bring up who will quickly be expendable and I don't think they want to do that with Robles.
Nori will now get his shot to prove he belongs. I think he will quickly prove he should have stayed in Japan.

This may have been brought up in another thread but since I can't read 400 comments every day I'll post it here. Since Repko came up as a SS, is it plausible that once Werth comes back and A Perez comes back that they send Repko down to play 3b at AAA and see if he could handle the position if A Perez can't? He certainly has the arm for it and I think he could hit just about as good A Perez.

I don't hate the Giants or Bonds, I only respect them and enjoy the rivalry. I do hate some fans who ruin the Dodger Stadium atomosphere to the point where I constantly have to stop myself from grabbing the idiots by the neck and flinging them over the fence onto the Dodger bullpen. I will never go to a Giant game again as it no longer is enjoyable.

I would have to think that calling up Robles would involve a couple of days since he's under a contract to a Mexican League team and more issues would have to be sorted than you could just do by calling up Las Vegas and saying "Send us a warm body with a bat."

Perez is most likely just not comfortable with 3B yet, thus the Dodgers are trying to give him the full rehab time. I'm pretty sure he's fully recovered from his hamstring injury, since he stole a base last night.

#37: The other thing to consider is that Kent runs really really slowly, so may be he doesn't get as tired :).

SB,

That was hilarious. Look at it this way, you haven't done anything Tommy Lasorda wouldn't do.

I'm very concerned about the 40-man roster issues with Edwards, since we lost Frank Brooks last time we added someone to the roster (Nakamura?). Obviously Frank Brooks is not a huge loss, but with our organizational depth, any time we drop someone from our 40-man roster, he's likely to be picked up by another team. Am I missing something?

#40 -

They have seven relievers now.

When they activate Gagne, if they get rid of Edwards, they'd have seven relievers including one suspended, for a total of six.

If they get rid of Schmoll, then they'd have six relievers including one suspended, for a total of five.

Right? Or is something off. Whatever it is, I blame it on Scott Erickson.

I think you mean Sean Erickson, Jon.

It's Sean, Jon. Sean Erickson.

Icaros - 1

SB - 0

So who's the back up middle infielder now? Will Nakamura be our shortstop or secondbaseman if Izzy or Kent goes down?
I suppose it would be just for one game and then Perez would be recalled. But still, it hampers Tracy's ability to make switches and to rest guys. Because of this, I think Perez should have been called up regardless of whether he's ready to go at third or not. We have two guys who can play third, we need a second baseman/ shortstop.

#48: Jon, you're trying to convince me that 1+1=4 and I'm not going to fall for your shenanigans. Somebody give Sean a call, because I need to have some words with him. :)

You're not counting Gagne in the new count for relievers, but you are subtracting him for the suspension, thus the off-by-one. For example, if they add Gagne and drop Edwards, they'll have eight relievers, with one suspended, thus seven available.

#52: Stop trying to jinx us. I have heard that in an emergency Nakamura could handle 2B. Also, I assume that in an emergency Repko could handle SS since that's where he started his professional career. Our emergency infield of Saenz (3B), Repko(SS), Nakamura (2B), Grabowski (1B) certainly would be exciting to watch.

#52 - yes, Screwgie...my concern as well. I guess if the White Sox can put Dye at shortstop in an emergency we could us Nori or, um, maybe Grabowski there? That would be fun.

Is it just me or does anybody else think that Valentin pushes the limits when he slides? I'm all for playing "hard" (i.e. Brian Jordan into Gary Bennett) but whenever I see him break up a DP he comes in awfully late. Does anybody know if he's always been this "aggressive"?. Wilkerson's leg was in a very vulnerable position last night and it appeared that Valentin went for it (and missed).

Sorry, that was Schnieder, the catcher.

#56: Valentin looked like he was trying to slide through the glove, which he did, knocking the ball out. On that play, if he didn't make an aggressive slide, he would likely have been out.

Re: the steroid issue discussed above

What players put into their bodies is not only their business, because it puts pressure on non-users to try to level the playing field. Whether they feel a lot or a little pressure is irrelevant; any pressure at all to put their health at risk is bad.

Re: bonds

Have the people who say that they don't know what Bonds is really like read his interviews? Granted, an ESPN interview is not the same thing as having a personal conversation. But first of all, he's very childish. The media has wanted him to jump off the bridge, and he has finally jumped? What exactly was that supposed to mean? Plus, the flaxseed oil bit was just inane and insulting. So after he gives grand jury testimony that he "unknowingly" used steroids but before we all knew about it, he's going to accuse the media of persecuting him by asking him whether he used steroids? Without having personally met Barry Bonds, I'm sure he's a selfish jerk because of what he says to the media.

Off topic but can we all just give a tip of the cap to JD Drew for playing 25 of 26 so far? The guy has some baserunning issues, but if we could have 2 more of him at $11m apiece we'd be in purdy good shape.

Also a fun link of the day:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/beanecount

"I'm very concerned about the 40-man roster issues with Edwards, since we lost Frank Brooks last time we added someone to the roster (Nakamura?)."
------

That's a good question, but if they were going to lose somebody it likely would've already happened with Edwards getting called up today. I have no idea how they solved the problem.

60-day DL guys don't count toward the 40-man roster, so you could move someone from the 15-day DL to 60-day. I guess this depends on how serious the injuries to Dessens/Valentin are.

Dreifort apparently is already on the 60-day DL because he's missing altogether from the 40-man on Dodgers.com. Looking at the guys on that list, I wonder if maybe they were able to somehow remove Carlyle from the 40-man upon sending him down. (Though he's still listed on it.)

Of the other guys on the 40-man, I think Joel Hanrahan is the most expendable, a 24-year-old pitching in Class A ball, and pitching poorly at that.

The increase in weight gain was supposedly a result of him actually eating again, and keeping the food down once he swallowed it.

Maybe he just got married. :-)

I was always ambivalent about Bonds. And I'd heard say stuff about how he loved the came, etc, etc. Then recently he made some comment about not caring about Babe Ruth. Not that Ruth was some great character but, as I told my wife, who asked why smoke was pouring out of my ears, "when Bonds pitches a couple of 20 win seasons, then he can start thinking of himself as in a class above/with Babe Ruth."

Sam DC -- I assume you mean Finn MacCool's?

I may try and stop by.

By the way, that Nick Christensen dude (mentioned in Jon's intro) totally rocks. I've made it a point this year to read the Las Vegas Sun online regularly because his coverage of the 51s is so outstanding. Well written, informative, great quotes, no apparent axes to grind -- it's just everything baseball reporting should be. He's definitely the best beat writer covering the Dodger organization, IMO.

Whatever happened to Jason Reid, by the way? Is he not around anymore, or am I missing something?

Jason Reid was covering NCAA Basketball. A search of the LATimes archives says that his last article was published on April 10.

And that April 10 piece was the Bogut Wooden Award article, likely the last of the college basketball season. I suspect Reid is simply on vacation after the season.

Yup, Den -- once a gay cowboy steakhouse, now Irish Pub Finn MacCool's (nee Cork Public House). If I can get out, I'll be alone at the bar around 10:30; but chances are only 50-50.

Random Dodger game callback

May 4, 1892
The Brooklyn Bridegrooms maintained their hot start at League Park in Cincinnati with a 4-2 win over the Reds. The Bridegrooms were tied for second with Louisville at 11-4, a game and a half behind first place Boston in the newly reconstituted 12-team National League, the American Association having folded the year before. Ed Stein limited the Reds to just 3 hits.

With such a large league, the National League decided to play a split season to increase tension in the second half. Brooklyn finished second in the first half, 2 ½ games behind Boston and finished third 9 ½ games behind Cleveland in the second half. Overall the Dodgers finished 95-59, the third best overall record in the NL, although the second most wins. The Dodgers would fare better the next time a split season schedule was used, but that would not be for another 89 years.

The Dodgers featured a pair of Hall of Famers in 1892 in Dan Brouthers, who led the NL in hits and RBI and Monte Ward, who was sold to the New York Giants before the 1893 season.

Thanks to Retrosheet, Baseball-reference.org and the NY Times

Posted earlier since I'm headed to the game tonight.

The opposing second baseman in that game, Bid McPhee, would have been the only player on the field not wearing a glove. "I have never seen the necessity of wearing one, and besides, I cannot hold a thrown ball if there is anything on my hands," he told a reporter in 1890. "This glove business has gone a little too far… True, hot-hit balls do sting a little at the opening of the season, but after you get used to it there is no trouble on that score."

McPhee finally gave in and started wearing a glove in 1896, the last major league player to do so.

Consider this your Schmoll fact of the day, only it's not about Schmoll. ;)

EE. Thats one of the most interesting tidbits I've heard in awhile. Thanks. I never knew anyone objected to wearing a glove. Great name too.

I'm a little late here, but I can't imagine why one would need a reason to hate Barry Bonds. As such, he's supplied us with so many, why is this an issue?

Hi all. Perhaps this is for the previous thread, but I was wondering if Jon, or someone else, might have the best address (e-mail or snail-mail) to which a letter of complaint about the crowd control might be sent. I'm thinking that a small letter-writing campaign might not be helpful, urging the team to hire more security, change their mandate (and that of the ushers), and to have Vinnie and maybe Jaime Jarrin or Fernando make PSAs. Obviously, one letter won't do anything, but there are a lot of us, and 100 letters might help.

I would think writing a letter, on paper that is, with a stamp and all that and sending it to the Dodgers office will work best.

Address it to Frank McCourt. He'll pass it on down, but there's no point in guessing the Dodger middle manager of the Day to respond to your complaint.

On the Bonds thing, I've opined before, but I love the guy. My favorite outcome is for him to homer, and the Giants to lose. He's the ONLY player that I will stop what I'm doing to watch. Of course, what I'm doing is usually watching the Dodger game, as that's the team I've rooted for for 30 years, but I'm in awe of Bonds the player. As for Bonds the human being? My view is that I don't have any idea at all about that. I refuse to believe what sportswriters tell me about that sort of stuff, not because it's all lies, but because we have no way of telling what's true and what's not, but we do know that these guys have an incentive to stir up controversy. And, frankly, unless he's breaking the law, I couldn't care less that he's a surly rich guy who just wants to be left alone. So what? As for how he treats reporters, that's a point in his favor, as far as I'm concerned. With 99% of athletes spouting cliche after cliche, with 3rd person self-reverence and dubious references to God's great plan interspersed, I love guys like Bonds or Barkley, or even Shaq, who call a stupid question a stupid question, and don't play the pointless PR game. As for being spoiled, rich athletes, don't you think Bonds would be a lot richer if he were to play along? Feh. Pitch to Barry, and whether it's talent vs. talent or talent+steroids on both sides, let's just see what happens.

In the May 4, 1892 game, Bid McPhee led off for the Reds and went hitless. He had 4 putouts and 3 assists with no errors.

The Reds made 3 errors and the brief story alluded to a "stupid play" by Reds pitcher Tony Mullane.

The Reds first baseman that season was a guy by the name of Charles Comiskey.

If you want to use e-mail, all the Dodger e-mail addresses follow this pattern:

bobt@ladodgers.com
jonw@ladodgers.com

etc etc

I agree, Bob (#74). Does Frank McC have an address for such things, perhaps on the Dodger website? I don't see one.

Oops, bad editing in #73. I meant to say that a small letter-writing campaign MIGHT be helpful (not "might not"). Clearly, I shouldn't have skipped lunch. I think I'll go remedy that right now....

Hey, didn't John Olguin get fired a couple months ago?

The website MLB operates for media members (MLBPressbox.com) still lists him as the Dodgers' press contact.

No, John Olguin still has a job. It was Gary with the last name I will misspell.

I like reading Christensen too, Eric.

Rockies up 4-2 in the bottom of the Sixth. SD has runnners on second and third, one out, with Nevin coming up to bat.

Roberts scores from third on a wild pitch by Jennings.

To close the loop, Nevin single, Kelso homer, 6-4 SD.

Every runner that has reached base for the Padres has scored so far - Roberts homered leading off, Hernandez homered, Roberts and Loretta walked and were signled home by Nevin, the Klesko homered.

6 Runs on 4 hits and 2 walks.

0 LOB in the 7th inning.

Whoops. There was one fielding error by COL, so one runner was left stranded. Still, that's very efficient scoring.

FWIW, my college baseball coach in Redding, CA ran into Dusty Baker once and got around to asking him about Bonds. According to my coach, Baker told him Bonds was as big a jerk as most of us imagine.

Win expectancy for the Padres against the Rockies, with a score of 6-4, no runners on base, 1 out in the bottom of the 7th is.

Exp: 0.907 or 90.7%

According to the "Win Expectancy Finder" at

http://walkoffbalk.com/tools/winexp/index.php

vr

Xeifrank

Re: #75

I don't understand why the opposite of "spouting cliches" has to be "act like a jerk." Barry Bonds is one of the greatest hitters in the history of the game -- and he was even before he started rubbing flaxseed oil all over himself. But it really doesn't take much of an effort to answer a reporter's question, even a dumb question, even a dumb question you've heard over and over again. In fact, if you answer it the first time, you're not likely to hear it nearly as often.

The two guys you mentioned -- Barkley and Shaq -- are good counterpoints. You're right -- they both manage to be entertaining and occasionally forthright in their press quotes. But they manage to do so without treating reporters like dirt, and Lord knows both of those guys have faced incessant dumb questions about touchy issues (see: free throws and fat and "i am not a role model") in their careers. Like 'em or not, the sportswriters are doing a job. If a guy wants respect, he should offer respect.

Re: #88

Win expectancy is now down to 63.4% for the Padres after the 2 run HR to tie things up in the top of the 8th.

vr

Xeifrank

re: #89

Years ago I had a conversation with Rich Marotta. He said hockey players were the best to deal with because, at least back then, they seemed truly grateful for the coverage. Football always depended on the athlete. Marcus Allen had the nickname "Garbo" for his elusiveness during postgame.

Anywho, he said baseball was the worst and he wasn't being bitter when he said it. They get interviewed literally every day and the athletes just get sick of it.

Re: Contacting the Dodgers, just e-mail Simers and have him give you McCourt's phone number.

Bonds was one of the greatest hitters in the HISTORY of the game before the 'roid controversy? I might have been a little on the young side during his Pittsburgh years, but wasn't he about equal to Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Ken Griffey, Edgar Martinez, and a handful of other players of that era?

Or were all of these players some of the greatest hitters in the history of the game?

Yes, he was really good in PIT and pre-steroids-suspicion years in SF, but he was considered a borderline 500-HR guy. Now he's got 700 HR in his career.

But he certianly wasn't one of the greatest in History. Generally, he was considered to be a level or two behind Griffey, Jr. throughout the 90s.

We forget how great Griffey was, pre-CIN.

I just got my Team Depo shirt and am wearing it proudly around my office and getting a ton of blank stares.

The other Luis Gonzales puts the Rocks up 7-6, Klesko re-ties it to open up the bottom of the Ninth. Xeifrank -- can you reset the Tote Board?

Does the Win Expectancy Table take into account the likelihood of the Rockies bullpen hanging on to less than a six run lead, which while not zero, approaches zero asymptotically?

Bottom of 9th, 0 outs, 7-7 tie, Padres have a runner on first. Win expectancy at this moment is now...

71.4%

Sac bunt would put it at 70.3%

an out would put it at, 66.3%

vr

Xeifrank

First and second, no outs, 7-7 tie.

81.4%

A sac bunt brings the win expectancy down. Brilliant.

Bunting brings down the odds of winning? That's pretty interesting.

Is the win table based solely on the situation, or on the particular teams in the situation?

Random comments on various sub-threads to this thread:

Re: 91
I've heard that hockey players are the most agreeable to the press, too. As to the reason, a Canadian friend of mine said that it's because so many of them are farm boys from the Western provinces who were raised the old-fashioned way, that you have to give respect to get it. Interestingly, when I was in college, I knew some of the jocks (roomed with a football player for a couple of years) and it always seemed to me that the hockey players were the rowdiest.

Re: 89
I agree that Shaq and Barkley are different cases from Bonds. Bonds just seems surly and even petulant. Shaq makes a game of dealing with the press, using humor and pulling their legs. That's how he gets away with it. Barkley seems like a complicated and thoughtful guy who sometimes has a bull-in-the-china-shop way of putting things. His "I am not a role model" quote has an importance that goes beyond how one deals with the press.

Re: Bonds in general
He doesn't much move me one way or another. A great hitter, yes. Boo! for playing for the Giants so well for so long (if he'd stuck with the Pirates or stayed in the NL East in general, I wouldn't feel that way). A petulant jerk? Quite possibly, but hard to tell without knowing him personally. The steroid thing? I don't approve, largely for reasons Aug C laid out in #59. But that gets into a whole other discussion about the role of sports in our society (cf. Bill James on the cocaine scandals of the late '70s-early '80s).

Can the Padres fire Bruce Bochy right now, or do they have to wait until the game is actually over?

Win expectancy is from Phil Birnbaum's site, which was derived from Retrosheet game data of every major league game from 1979-1990.

Type in the numbers yourself, it's just a simple JavaScript online form.

http://walkoffbalk.com/tools/winexp/index.php

vr

Xeifrank

I can affirm the good rep hockey players have for interviews.

In my experience, though I hated covering the sport, the most accessible people to interview were in auto racing.

re: bonds' place in history.

alright, fair enough, i'm not really looking to make a case for bonds' pre-steroids numbers. if you disagree that he was one of the greatest in the history of the game, i'm not going to expend much energy trying to persuade you, 'cause i don't care about him enough to do so. and you all are right, he certainly wasn't looking like a 700-homer guy before then.

nevertheless, he was an elite hitter, and a guy with what, three MVPs under his belt? he was a surefire hall-of-famer. and a hall-of-fame jerk. that's really all i was trying to say in that post.

SB: regarding baseball players vs. other athletes, i've actually heard the same thing from friends who've covered the major sports. from what i hear, football players are, by and large, the best of the lot. the writer who told me this theorized that it was because football players go to college, and most of them go for four years, so they get a little perspective that you don't necessarily get from signing a contract at 18, then playing for three years in backwater towns throughout the south.

Of course a bunt brings down the odds of winning - you're giving up an out. However, if you bunt you've got a reasonably good chance of successfully moving up the runner (say, 80%? I don't know). If you don't bunt, there's only a 1-league average OBP (say, 1-0.320, or 68%?) chance of not making an out. Getting out without advancing the runner is worse than advancing the runner with an out - and a DP is much worse. Just something you have to factor in. If an out would result in 66.3% chance and a sac would result in a 70.3% chance, then the decision to sacrifice might give you an expected chance to win (after the AB) of 69.5%. What's the corresponding number for the decision to swing away? I don't know, but you'd have to account for outs about 68% of the time and DPs (brings it down) as well as hits and walks (brings it up). Just saying.

Dan, that's one of the things that bugs me about Bonds' possible steroid use. He was already a top player in the sport. It just reeks of selfishness and greed to then get on steroids and threaten legit baseball records that, as far as anyone knows, were set with hard work, not boosted by roids.

My brother would bring his then 5-year old daughter to Blues practices. She hit it off well with the other kids. I guess she didn't get to close to Mike Danton however.

I oppose bunting in all its hideous forms.

That Win Expectancy site is broken. Enter in the first inning, 0 outs, bases empty, no score. Click on Home, and submit, then click on Visitor, and submit.

How are they tracking more games depending on whether or not you're the visitor?

Re: #73 & #74: Suggest we put all ideas on paper, fold them into airplanes, and have LAT plunk McCourt on the head with them. Go directly to the source.

After every throw, LAT csan point to the guy next to him :)

I don't understand the last sentence of 111. But punching in that situation gives you a .589 winning percentage if you're the home team. That sounds a little high, but not egregiously so. It's definitely over 50%.

Anyone know why the mighty Alex Cintron is starting in place of Troy Glaus for Arizona today, or is this just a case of Bob Melvin doing a favor for his former team?

Re: #111

Top of first game just started.
Visitors: 48.4%
Home: 51.6%

Bottom of first, no outs, nobody on, tie score.
Visitors: 41.1%
Home: 58.9%

Now, what is your question?

vr

Xei

"SEATTLE (AP) - Considered one of the best pinch-hitters in baseball, Dave Hansen is back in the majors after being called up by the Seattle Mariners on Wednesday.

Hansen played six games at Triple-A Tacoma since signing a minor league contract with the Mariners on April 28, and hit .300 with three RBIs.

The 36-year-old Hansen ranks fifth all-time in career pinch-hits (137) and seventh in pinch-hit home runs (15). He played in 57 games for Seattle last year, hitting .282 with two home runs and 12 RBIs, before being traded to San Diego at the trade deadline."

Home team down 2 in the bottom of the ninth with 0 outs and a man on 3rd: 18% of teams in this situation have won. (6/34)

Say there's a squeeze or a fly out that scores the man on third. Only 10% of home teams that were down 1 with 1 out and nobody on ended up winning. (334/3225)

This would be interesting if the first bit of information had more than 34 samples. Isn't it odd that out of all the games that only 34 times did the home team get a man on 3rd with no outs?

The more I play with this thing, the more it seems like 'smallball' isn't statistically supported.

There's an article in BP today about close games and strategy by Nate Silver (the PECOTA guy) - he does a breakdown of how valuable single and multiple runs are on a marginal basis depending on game situation - exactly the kind of stuff being discussed on the board right now.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4003

Not publicly available, unfortunately...

Top of the 12th now in SD. Fernando's twin is pitching for the Padres.

Here's a chunk from the end of the Silver article. He has a big chart/table and draws this as one of his conclusions:

"The later we go into the game, the more attractive one-run strategies become. Again, this should be considered a highly intuitive result. But it would be easy to understate just how profound the differences are. In the bottom of the first inning of a tied game, the ORVY is just 1.09, which implies that the first run that scores is only about 9% more valuable than the second run that scores. Once we move to the bottom of the eighth inning, however, the ORVY is 3.64 in a tied game, meaning that the first run is around 260% more valuable than the second. Managers are surely behaving in error if they give up too much to sacrifice bunt early in the game, when a second run is nearly as valuable as the first. At the same time, statheads surely underestimate how viable one-run strategies can be when the game is late, and the score is close. Generally speaking, it seems that the inflection point for one-run strategies in today's baseball environment comes in about the bottom of the sixth inning."

re: #117

Yeah, small sample size on some of the scenarios. I guess there aren't too many leadoff triples in the 9th inning!?

Of course in the course of a game you have other factors to determine if a small ball move is better, like who is up, who is the runner, who are the next couple of batters etc... ad nauseum. But the win expectancy calculator gives you a great baseline, that the manager could use in accordance with the real-time game situation.

vr

Xeifrank

And in the midst of all this, the other idiot manager in Southern California wastes an out trying to bunt with Josh Paul. Foul bunt 1, Foul bunt 2, swing through strike 3. Brilliant.

And now Rex Hudler goes on mute.

He's just taking a bong rip, Steve. He'll be back.

The Washington Post says that Terrmel Sledge's injury Monday was very bad.

http://tinyurl.com/9aae5

I'd rather have a doctor make that determination about Sledge than noted medical expert Jim Bowden.

Dodger team doctor performed an MRI and found a partially torn hamstring. So there is a second opinion.

What are the MRI results for Valentin? Anyone hear?

Based on Sledge's MRI, they're now upgrading the injury to a partially torn hamstring. He's expected to be out at least 8 weeks. Bowden compared it to Griffey's 2001 hamstring injury. Got it from ESPN's fantasy player news:

http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/flb/players/profile?statsId=7188

"Representing the tieing run as a pinch hitter in the ninth -- Robinson said he used Chavez against right-handed reliever Yhency Brazoban because Chavez hits from the left side -- he grounded into a double play."

Even when it helps us, it hurts me. It just hurts me. I can't explain it.

I'm not sure why, but MRI results seem to take ~24 hours to get released. Perhaps there's a doctor on DT who can explain why this is? Hopefully Vin can give us an update on Valentin's MRI during the game tonight, but I'm guessing tomorrow is more likely.

OK,
I just dislike Jim Bowden. He's on my list:
Bowden
Russ Oritz
Craig Counsell
Matt Herges
Kirk Rueter
Jason Jennings
Brett Tomko

I'm debating on adding JT Snow to the list.

The DBacks lead the Giants 4-1 in the 4th.

And Scioscia runs himself out of an inning. Nope, we've scored two boys, that's enough.

I think it takes a really good doctor to interpret an MRI correctly. They want to make sure they see everything correctly and not just make an educated guess.

maybe Valentin going on the DL will let his hand heal....he hasn't hit at all since being hit on the hand by the Rockies last week....I think he was hurt more than they have said....

Moving time, folks. Evening Open Chat is, well, open.

I hope this isn't annoying for you. Just been sticking to this feeling that the game chats should get their own threads.

bigcpa: depo shirts arrived. well done

Eric: Never received envelopes from Postal service that I thought you had ordered (maybe you didn't)

Are the shirts still suppose to arrive by the 6-7th? I know there were some problems.

Texas leads Oakland 16-7 in the bottom of the 9th and the two teams are in a rain delay of all things. Not a good thing given the score of the game and that tomorrow is probably(?) a get away day for the teams. This rain is headed to the southland folks, suppose to be .5 to 1 inches of rain starting tomorrow morning sometime. Good thing for the two LA teams that niether has a home game tomorrow.

Arizona leading SF 4-1 in the bottom of the fourth with one out and runners on first and second. Arizona's win expectancy is now up to... 90.6% (212/234)

vr

Xeifrank

Brendan, I did order the envelopes to be shipped to you. I'll try to find out what's going on.

ok. thanks eric. I can always go and pick some up but wanted to check with you first

Bowden
Russ Oritz
Craig Counsell
Matt Herges
Kirk Rueter
Jason Jennings
Brett Tomko

Can't disagree with any of these dislikes, except maybe Counsell. I kind of liked him when LA picked him up off the scrap heap, thought he could be the next Jody Reed.

I love blog posters who feel they no more about managing then World Championship Managers. Earl Weaver managed his way because his team was built for it. Mike manages his way and amazingly it seems to work very well for him. Unless you don't believe in winning % as a meaningfull statistic for a manager.

Is the dislike of Ortiz strictly based on the fact that he was a Giant or because he wins against all odds?

Well, it could be based on the fact the Ortiz grew up a diehard Dodger fan.

Then again, maybe not.

Unless you don't believe in winning % as a meaningful statistic for a manager.

I think it's about as meaningful as winning % for a pitcher.

I dislike Russ Ortiz because he always seems very whiny and he's always on teams I dislike.

That's Russ Ortiz of Montclair Prep in Van Nuys, teammate of the last man to steal home in the World Series, Brad Fullmer.

*Rampant speculation about the bacteria in Bonds' knee - their flagella look so pumped up from 5-10 years ago, you wouldn't even recognize them

*Met Jim Bowden once. Nice guy. Then again, that's what Hank Kingsley said about OJ...

*Players that rub(bed) me the wrong way:
-Randy Johnson (his back problem was miraculously healed by the application of an Astros uniform to the affected area)
-Jim Leyritz
-Paul "Pampers" O'Neill (the anti-Dykstra)
-Tom Goodwin (no explanation needed, right?)
-Most pitchers on the '90s Braves (until that "chicks dig the longball" commercial came out) something about Steve Avery's affectless gaze, Maddux' missing chin and Tom Glavine's Elmer Fudd-looking ballcap; like you were getting the crap kicked out of you by engineering students
-Jim Edmonds (did the Angels miss him for one second? After watching Mike Cameron and Ichiro for several years, I have a lot less respect for that "Look how hard I'm running to catch this ball!" approach)