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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Your Call Is Very Important To Us
2005-10-13 08:45
by Jon Weisman

Baseball has umpires who make mistakes, and to blame a loss on a bad call is silly, no matter what the timing is. Anger is one thing; blame is another - and I apply this rule to the Dodgers like any other team. If your margin for victory is so small that an umpire's call blows it for you, it wasn't as if some grand injustice occured.
- Dodger Thoughts, October 11, regarding a two-out strikeout call benefiting the Angels

But it was certainly an interesting play, so if you want to read or discuss more about the finish to Wednesday's Angel-White Sox playoff game ...

Mike's Baseball Rants
The Juice
Baseball Analysts
Baseball Musings (and here too)

Update: And, Humbug:

... For those who are truly the best,
Who are worthy of winning the quest,
Don't live by befriending Joe West,
Then die whining, "I am oppressed!"

"I know I haven't seen it all, and I never will," Erstad said. "That's the beauty of the game, even if sometimes it stinks." - Darin Erstad in the Times

* * *

As I noted in the comments Wednesday, former Stanford Daily colleague Susan Sluser reports that Orel Hershiser is interviewing to manage the A's.

* * *

Agoura High School's Robert Stock, 15, was named Youth Player of the Year by Baseball America - the first high school underclassman to win the award.

* * *

Tonight's Game:
Houston at St. Louis, 5 p.m.

Comments (251)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-10-13 09:04:48
1.   Vishal
some A's fans aren't too thrilled about the idea of their former tormentor suddenly becoming their manager.
2005-10-13 09:13:47
2.   Kayaker7
Well, since you started this new thread, and I posted at the end of the thread, two threads down, here it is again, regarding the call. 270 refers to the post above mine.

270 But if the ump is able to explain away his hand gestures, then so be it.

This is another thing that is dumb about baseball. It doesn't seem like there is a set standard for hand signals. As a kid, I always thought outs were indicated with a thumbs up sign with an up and over the shoulder movement, but I have never seen an umpire use that gesture.

Do it like football. Have all the umpire do the same thing. The silly gymnastics that each umpire customizes for strike three outs is ridiculous.

2005-10-13 09:22:09
3.   Curtis Lowe
Maybe Orel is using the interview in Oakland to be convienently close to LA during the DOdgers own manager hunt.
2005-10-13 09:23:58
4.   JMK
Simers bashed Paul for not being serious enough which he claims led to his "mistake". Give me a break. Simers' whole schtik is supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. He's supposedly the iconoclast who jabs at those who take sports too seriously. And he's gonna get on Paul for not being serious enough? God, he's weak. I actually think that what Simers tries to do could be really good. It would be nice if there were a columnist out there who could make fun of the plethora of immature, self-centered, spoiled athletes and coaches and point out the silliness of fans and those in the media who take sports too seriously. A column like that could be written with humor and insight. Simers is not that guy. He's horrible.
2005-10-13 09:26:36
5.   popup
Remembering Sandy:

Game four of the 1963 World Series found the Dodgers with a 3-0 lead over the Yankees and Sandy Koufax on the mound at Dodger Stadium. It was a good time to be a Dodger fan.

Sandy was magnificient. Thanks to a mamouth homerun by Frank Howard in the 5th, the Dodgers took a 1-0 lead into the 7th. In the 7th, Mickey Mantle hit a solo homerun to even the score.

The Dodgers regained the lead in the bottom of the 7th on an unearned run. Jim Gilliam hit a high bouncing ball to Yankee third baseman Clete Boyer to open the frame. Boyer fired a throw across the diamond in time for the out, but Yankee first baseman Joe Pepitone lost sight of the baseball, allowing Gilliam to reach base. Gilliam scampered to third on the play. Willie Davis followed with a fly ball to Mantle to score the go ahead run.

Sandy made the run stand up. Bobby Richardson opened the Yankee 9th with a single to center. Sandy then retired Tom Tresh and Mickey Mantle on strikes to bring the Dodgers one out away from a sweep. Elston Howard hit a ground ball to short for what looked like the final out of the game. Sandy lept into the air for joy, but Dick Tracewski was unable to catch the throw from Maury Wills for the force on Richardson. With two on and two out, Hector Lopez hit a slow ground ball to Maury Wills. Maury fielded the ball cleanly and fired a throw to Bill Skowron that had the whole city of Los Angeles leaping for joy.

In game four Sandy allowed 1 run and 6 hits over 9 innings, with 8 strikeouts and no walks. His cumulative totals for the 1963 World Series were 2 wins, 18 innings pitched, 23 strikeouts, 3 walks, 12 hits and 3 earned runs.

Thanks to retrosheet.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 09:27:34
6.   Jon Weisman
2 - I like that umpires have different styles. Just like baseball has ballparks of different shapes. Football is rarely my role model for what I want baseball to be like.

The styles just need to fit certain guidelines - and until last night, Eddings' style never was a problem.

2005-10-13 09:27:43
7.   Curtis Lowe
Has anybody else been listening to the Angels players being interviewed before games? When each player was asked about Scioscia(Figgins,Kennedy,Quinlan etc..)they all had the same response,"He knows how to win because he was a winner.". Could it be that having a winner for a manager can play a huge part in the teams identity? If the answer is yes then would'nt Trammell be the best for the team?
2005-10-13 09:30:08
8.   Penarol1916
Guess I missed a controversial game last night, oh well, I got to watch a real conspiracy in action, unlike these phantom ones that the Angel fans are dreaming up as Uruguay and Argentina teamed up for the 2nd time in 4 years to give Colombia the big screwgie in their hopes of qualifying for the World Cup, god I love truly dirty sports.
2005-10-13 09:33:25
9.   Colorado Blue
3 - I had a similar thought but more along the lines of Beane helping DePo with pre-screening.
2005-10-13 09:41:10
10.   alex 7
re: 7 I would guess that many successful managers were "losers" as players.
2005-10-13 09:45:17
11.   Bob Timmermann
Umpires in all sports have different styles. I once saw my brother do impressions of all the Pac-10 referees (at the time) making foul calls. He had covered way too many basketball games by that point.

Think about some of the NFL refs and the way they yell "FIRST DOWN!"

In some respects, last night's game was like the doctor on "Arrested Development" who always said dire things, but paused before he could finish the sentence which would then change the meaning. "The Literal Doctor"

2005-10-13 09:47:13
12.   SMY
I haven't paid that much attention to the White Sox, but judging from the first two games of this series their baserunning is ridiculously awful. This is what passes for "smartball", or whatever you want to call it?
2005-10-13 09:47:49
13.   Mark
I understand that baseball is a very human game, and that's what gives it its charm and its quirks, but we live in the 21st century. If we can't have flying cars, at the very least we should have a coach's challenge, two per game. We live in an era where we could, if we wanted, have RFID tags inside the baseball and sensors around home plate to call balls and strikes down to the millimeter. The technology is here, today.

In deference to the concept of the umpire, we shouldn't enable this sort of technology, but in return we should demand some sort of accountability. In other words: in a world where I can get a close-to-live stream of a Dodgers game no matter where I am in the world, thanks to satellite internet, the idea that we shouldn't use 50-year-old technology--the instant replay--to correct mistakes is unbelievable.

What happens if the White Sox win game 7? Could Moreno, lame as he may be, sucessfully take the MLB to court, citing potential lost revenue from going to the World Series based upon one call? As someone whose team at the time benefitted from the infamous Hrbek-Gant basepulling incident, I'll be the first one to say that managers should have the ability to force a review of all recorded angles of any given play.

2005-10-13 09:49:46
14.   Bob Timmermann
Lucille: How's my son?
Doctor: He's going to be all right.
Lindsay Funke: Finally some good news from this guy.
George Michael Bluth: There's no other way to take that.
Doctor: That's a great attitude. I got to tell you, if I was getting this news, I don't know that I'd take it this well.
Lucille: But you said he was all right.
Doctor: Yes, he's lost his left hand. So he's going to be "all right."
Lucille: [Jumping on the doctor] You son of a bitch! I hate this doctor!
Lindsay Funke: How do we keep getting this guy?
Michael: Mom, he's a very literal man.
Doctor: Yes, that's more the way I would take the news.
2005-10-13 09:49:53
15.   Curtis Lowe
13- I agree, each manager should be alloted 1 0r 2 challenges a series.
2005-10-13 09:50:23
16.   dzzrtRatt
10 For this team, I think the answer could be yes, because the new manager has to bridge the gap between the need to give Kent, Gagne and the other veterans a reason to believe the Dodgers are interested in winning in 2006, and the necessity of allowing the future stars to develop and stay in the organization. To me, Luvullo, Royater and Collins all say: Future! Wotus is a cypher, but Trammell would be a way of saying, We can win now.

The confidence boost is needed only because a) Players hate to use injuries as an alibi, even though in 2005's case, it's a fact; and b) I think Jim Tracy did a lot of well-poisoning the last month of the season, griping to Kent, Gagne and who knows who else about what a misguided dweeb DePodesta is. Bring in an Alan Trammell, and the residual angst will quickly dissipate.

P.S. The counter-examples to winning players becoming winning managers are many: Frank Robinson, Ted Williams, Larry Bowa, Davey Lopes, Pete Rose...

2005-10-13 09:53:46
17.   Bob Timmermann
They are experimenting with RFID tags (or some type of transmitter) in soccer balls for big international matches. The idea is that it would make the single most important call in a soccer match (i.e., did a goal score, did the ball go completely over the line) foolproof.

If tests are successful, the system could be in place for the 2006 World Cup.

However, a baseball with an RFID tag in it might act like one handled by a 1986 version of Mike Scott.

Game 2 of the ALCS is over. If Angels fans are truly unhappy, they should go to their refrigerators, knock over a milk container and start crying.

It will have the same effect as complaining about the end result of Game 2.

2005-10-13 09:58:31
18.   gcrl
16 - i wouldn't necessarily put ted williams in that category. he was, of course, one of the greatest players ever, but not a "winner" in the same sense as trammell and the others you listed, simply because he never won a championship. also one of the most selfish players ever, apparently.

of course, this thinking would lead one to say that tim mccarver would be a good manager because he won a couple of championships...

2005-10-13 10:11:25
19.   Mark
17 Bob, I understand that Game 2 is over, done with, and there's nothing that anyone can do to change the outcome. That's fine. But it exposed what I think is a pretty big flaw in the way the game is played, and I think the league needs to take steps in the future to keep this kind of crap from happening again. I don't think it's too much to ask, for the '06 playoffs, to give each coach the ability to have the umpire crew look at the TV replays once or twice per game.
2005-10-13 10:14:05
20.   dzzrtRatt
18 It was said that one of Frank Robinson's problems when he managed the Giants and Indians was that he couldn't understand why players were unable to do what he did with the bat.

Scioscia fits the FBI profile of players who become successful managers. He was a catcher. Catchers have to learn more about the game than other players. They're the bridge between offense and defense. They can't be prima donnas; they have to find a way to communicate with stars, rookies, jerks, in more than one language. As a player, he was good but not great. Nothing came easy for him. But he was around some of the greats and played for winning teams, so he can apply experiences from that.

2005-10-13 10:15:48
21.   popup
#13, Mark, your opinion is very well stated but I don't agree. I am in favor of having the game being decided on the field. The field includes umpires who make the calls.

Regarding the play in question, I think the catcher caught the ball from the replay I saw. The ball seemed to roll around in the glove and the glove was on the ground. It is entirely possible that a raised stitch on the baseball made contact with the ground when the glove was on the ground. If that is the case, the correct call was made.

Replay in the NFL is one of the many reasons I no longer follow the NFL. I remember a game I did watch when replay first came in where the officials literally did not make a call on the field. Action stopped on the field while somebody from the press box watched tv to make the call. I turned off the set in disgust and have never really turned it back on as far as the NFL is concerned.

The human element, including human error, is the reason I watch sports. Robots may well play a game better and with fewer mistakes, and robot officials might make more accurate calls, but I don't think many people would watch.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 10:21:46
22.   schoffle
Regarding the umpire's hand signals, I have always been under the assumption that the umpire's calls the game on the field and that the hand signals are for the viewing audience. In this and most cases the catcher, who is facing the field, never sees the hand signals of the umpire and therefore must hear the call. Based on A.J.'s reaction I would assume that the umpire never called him out and that Paul left the field based on a strike three call. At no time did Paul look at the umpire therefore if there was no out call it does not matter what hand signals were given.
2005-10-13 10:22:27
23.   fawnkyj
2005-10-13 10:24:02
24.   Kayaker7
6 Different styles is one thing, but ambiguity is another. Uniformity of hand gestures is to prevent just that sort of thing like last night. All these variations may have charm 99.9% of the time, but getting it wrong .1% of the time is not enough to make that charm worth it.

The thing that gets me still is the calling of balls and strikes. There is no uniformity whatsoever. Isringhausen got called strikes on at least three balls out of the zone last night.

21 While I agree that human errors are a part of the charm of watching sports, like Chris Webber's errant timeout call, but I draw the line at officiating errors. It is a negative part of sports that is tolerated. If you had robot officials, there will be plenty of drama on the field. World Series of Poker is plenty exciting without the dealer making mistakes.

2005-10-13 10:25:02
25.   fawnkyj
What I was gonna say is that Depo and Beane are not interviewing the same guys, im sure they must be trading notes.
2005-10-13 10:25:30
26.   Bob Timmermann
L'affaire Josh Paul was just a weird event. It's not going to happen very often, or possibly ever again.
You can't guard against every eventuality. Weird things happen.
2005-10-13 10:27:15
27.   Izzy
Beane is interviewing Orel. What the? My brain can't handle that. One of the big differences between Beane and Depo is that Beane played the game professionally, and sometimes I wonder if he brings a certain amount of common sense and practicality to his decisions, that seem to be lacking in the Dodger front office. I will be kind of sad if we don't hire him though, and the A's do.
2005-10-13 10:31:55
28.   SiGeg
Weird things happen

And aren't we fans lucky when they do?

2005-10-13 10:33:28
29.   Colorado Blue
21 - Couldn't have said it better myself Stan! However, I still watch the NFL (Bronocs). They seem to have tamed IR fairly well... but, it's football. I, in no way want IR baseball. I detest the idea much the same way as I can't stand the DH.
2005-10-13 10:34:44
30.   Kayaker7
26 When various sports evolved, there was no TV nor replays. There was certain charm of arguing over what you saw in person. Kinda like "Rashomon."

With TV and Diamonvision, millions of people can see when officials make mistakes. Having to live with errors that can clearly be corrected is silly. Instead of managers arguing for 5 minutes, an official in the booth can have an answer in 30 seconds. The idea that replays slow down the game is a fallacy.

2005-10-13 10:36:30
31.   Colorado Blue
24 - Could you imagine Scoscia jaw-boning with a robot? It does have some comedic potential.
2005-10-13 10:37:04
32.   Curtis Lowe
21- Why do you consider adding instant replays robotic? And why would you insist that 100% of the game be called on the field? In life the instant replay is used to determine the guilty party of a crime caught on tape, it doesnt make the cop dumb for not being able to just automaticly know who was truely the criminal. Also just so the game doesnt become a replay fest limit the number of uses by series, it would move the game into the 21st century and clear up alot of the kinda garbage that happened last night.
2005-10-13 10:38:25
33.   popup
#24, There is no guarantee that robot oficials would always make the correct call. I must say though I think it would be entertaining to see Lou Piniella arguing with a robot.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 10:40:19
34.   Colorado Blue
30 - an official in the booth can have an answer in 30 seconds.

Apparently you have not witnessed IR in football... it would probably take them about 90 seconds to decide, but the networks found another opportunity for advertisement. It can take a solid 5 minutes from challenge until TV break is over.

2005-10-13 10:46:33
35.   Kayaker7
34 Football IR has improved, even it is not ideal, in my opinion. It used to take a long time. Now, the result is quicker. I don't like how the field referee peers into a monitor. Why can't a booth referee overrule the field referee? By the time the field referee is looking into the monitor, the TV audience has already seen it 10 times from three different angles, and the commentators have reached their decision. Maybe there should be a booth official watching TV.
2005-10-13 10:48:42
36.   Colorado Blue
32 - Comparing real, criminal activites to a sporting event is a stretch. Baseball is a game, a beautifully poetic game. Don't take it too seriously... if the ump blows the call, oh well; it all evens out. One of my favorite sights, believe it or not, is the out call by an ump on an attempted steal. Heck, they get it wrong a good precentage of the time, but if the play is awesome, you don't even get an argument from the baserunner.

And yes, if the ump blows a call that goes against the Dodgers I'm gonna get flamin' mad. But I'm just as happy to take them when they go our way.

To me, this part of the game... just as is watching a pitcher hold a bat.

2005-10-13 10:51:41
37.   Colorado Blue
Of course "this part" should be "this is part"
2005-10-13 10:54:11
38.   Curtis Lowe
36- If it affects the outcome of a playoff game that directly causes economic misfortune on the victim of the bad call, not to mention going from winners to losers because of a blatently horrible call. It could also affect how people feel about a game where the rule makers are too prideful to admit mistakes. It honestly makes no sense why the replay isnt and wasnt administered into baseball along time ago.
2005-10-13 10:55:14
39.   Steamer
I thought it was interesting that even in the heat of the moment, when asked about instant replay, Scoscia said "no".

13. As to your question "Could Moreno, lame as he may be, sucessfully take the MLB to court, citing potential lost revenue from going to the World Series based upon one call?"

Me thinks Moreno is going to be busy with another court case during the off season. January 9, Orange County Superior. (LAAoA)

2005-10-13 10:58:02
40.   dzzrtRatt
27 Beane has been GM of the A's since 1997. He's made the playoffs with the A's four years out of in 4 of his 9 seasons. DePodesta has been GM of the Dodgers since 2004. He's made the playoffs in 1 of his 2 seasons. Proving? Nothing, except you can't draw that kind of comparison yet between Beane and DePodesta. Beane needed three seasons at the helm before his A's made the playoffs. And he started with an advantage DePodesta didn't have, in that Beane had been part of the A's under Alderson, the first GM to apply sabermetrics.

Beane has notoriously poor relationships with his managers; it's been a weak spot of his reign that he hasn't found someone who can enhance his own accomplishments. DePodesta might be no better--we'll see. But he could hardly be worse in that department than DePodesta will ever be.

2005-10-13 10:59:35
41.   popup
Colorado, we are definately on the same page. While you were posting your comment about Scioscia, I was typing my comment about Lou.

Curtis, let me for a minute agree with you. Instant replay is great. Why then should there be some artificial limit on the number of times it can be used? I don't follow the NFL as I said earlier, but from what I understand the guy on the sidelines with the clipboard who is wired up like a telephone operator but who is in reality the head coach (there are lots of reasons I don't follow the NFL) throws some sort of flag onto the field to challenge a call. There is some limit to the number of challenges, but if he makes a successful challenge, he gets to keep his flag for later use.

OK. Scioscia throws the flag. Somebody watches tv for 10 minutes and decides there is not conclusive proof that the umpire made the wrong call, so Scioscia loses his flag. Next inning Don Denkinger, who is umpiring at first, calls a runner safe who should be out. But since Scioscia doesn't have a flag, the call stands. I think I have described the NFL, though it has been so long since I have even seen a part of a game I may be wrong.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 11:00:15
42.   dzzrtRatt
40 I messed up my last sentence. It should read But he could hardly be worse in that department than Beane has been.
2005-10-13 11:02:36
43.   das411
20 - I'm surprised nobody picked up on this. How many ex-catchers have won World Series in the last, oh, ten years? This sounds like a question for Bob...

39 - Yep, imagine in 50 years when someone looks up the playoff teams from the Chris Burke era and sees the following for AL West champions:
2004 - Anaheim Angels
2005 - Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim
2006 - Anaheim Angels

2005-10-13 11:05:39
44.   Curtis Lowe
41- Thats the beauty of it, it adds a whole new aspect to managing, the when to use your limited replay card.
2005-10-13 11:06:50
45.   dzzrtRatt
RE: instant replay

What is that strike-and-ball calling robot, Questec? It was being used to evaluate umpires in real time. It drove pitchers crazy. Up til then, it was pitchers' job to know the predilictions of certain umpires, but the presence of that damn machine made the umpires so self-conscious, they changed their patterns.

Among the qualities I like in a major league player (or a professional in any field) is the ability to figure out the intangibles, the grey areas, the human factors, and to deal with things like dumb luck and those 'life is unfair' moments.

I prefer baseball to remain a place where the human factor and luck count. I don't merely accept umpire blunders--I embrace them!

If the Angels let this episode get under their skin, they deserve their fate. But I seriously doubt they will. This is a team of tough characters that has experience dealing with weirdness, and has bounced back.

2005-10-13 11:07:08
46.   Curtis Lowe
It's pretty much like tivo, you might as well accept it early on because soon it will be an important part of watching baseball.
2005-10-13 11:08:27
47.   Curtis Lowe
45-How does the Replay take away human factor? It merely lets the human make a better judgement.
2005-10-13 11:14:33
48.   Kayaker7
Frankly, all the people saying that officiating errors add to the excitement and charm sound a lot like Smallballers claiming that hit and run plays, stolen bases and bunting add to the excitement of baseball.

To me, what makes a game exciting is the uncertainty of the outcome, decided by the play of the athletes. Eliminating the blown calls does not change that.

2005-10-13 11:17:22
49.   Colorado Blue
38 -
If it affects the outcome of a playoff game that directly causes economic misfortune on the victim of the bad call

I would need to see that quantified into an appreciable value.

It could also affect how people feel about a game where the rule makers are too prideful to admit mistakes.

What's pride got to do with it? They made the call as they saw it or judged it, right or wrong. If this turns people off to baseball such that they don't view it then they are too fickle for the game anyway.

I quit watching the NBA after the terrific LA teams of the late 70's and through the 80's because it began to lose any sense of humility, sportsmanship, and team. Does the NBA miss "me"? Not a chance...

2005-10-13 11:18:54
50.   Bob Timmermann
2004 - Francona (outfield/first base)
2003 - McKeon (minor league catcher)
2002 - Scioscia
2001 - Brenly
1998-2000 - Torre (infielder, but started at catcher)
1997 - Leyland (minor league catcher)
1996 - Torre
1995 - Cox (infielder)
1992-93 - Gaston (outfielder)
1991 - Kelly (infielder/outfielder)
1990 - Piniella (outfielder)
1989 - La Russa (infielder)
1988 - Lasorda (pitcher)
1987 - Kelly (infielder/outfielder)
1986 - Johnson (infielder)
1985 - Howser (infielder)
1984 - Anderson (infielder)
1983 - Altobelli (infielder/outfielder)
1982 - Herzog (1b/of)
1981 - Lasorda (pitcher)
1980 - Green (pitcher)
1979 - Tanner (catcher)
1978 - Lemon (pitcher)
1977 - Martin (infielder)
1975-76 - Anderson (infielder)
1974 - Dark (infielder)
1972-73 - Williams (IF/OF)
1971 - Murtaugh (infielder)
1970 - Weaver (infieder in minors)
1969 - Hodges (infielder, but played catcher as rookie)
1968 - Smith (outfielder)
1967 - Schoendienst (infielder)
1966 - Bauer (outfielder)
1965 - Alston (infielder)
1964 - Keane - ???? - so I will quit
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-10-13 11:20:19
51.   popup
#46, Curtis you may be right. The advertising behind homeplate is now part of the expierence of watching baseball. It does not mean I like it.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 11:21:18
52.   Curtis Lowe
49- Commons sense says that losers generate less money, and common sense or any grip on reality shows that pride is directly related to being too hard headed to admit a mistake or lapse in judgement. If your not sure what happened then admit it and use a little device thats been around for decades called the TV.
2005-10-13 11:24:49
53.   Colorado Blue
51 - How 'bout the advertising on the Dodger Stadium outfield wall? Try getting used to that after the tribute shrine it used to be! Seriously though, I can adapt to that and, in fact, it is very retro.
2005-10-13 11:25:25
54.   popup
Bob, (1979) Chuck Tanner was primarily an outfielder. Perhaps he caught a game or two, but I don't think he was a catcher by trade.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 11:26:40
55.   Mark
36 "And yes, if the ump blows a call that goes against the Dodgers I'm gonna get flamin' mad. But I'm just as happy to take them when they go our way."

I'm not as happy. I would much rather earn a victory than to be handed one by a mistake made by someone who is seemingly completely out of my control. This is where the "robotic" element actually adds to the human accomplishment, rather than detracting. Would we have seen Buerhle go out there for the top of the tenth, Jack Morris style? We'll never know. What we do know is that last night's game will never, ever go down in the annals of history as being a great neck-and-neck game--which it was, prior to the call.

Look, I'm not advocating a complete change in how the game is officiated. I would just like some sort of accountability, which just doesn't exist right now.

2005-10-13 11:28:00
56.   Nagman
If last night's game had used IR, it would be used as an argument against using IR since the ump would've said "After further review, the replay was inconclusive. Therefore, the play stands as called on the field."

And everybody would say how IR doesn't work, etc., etc.

2005-10-13 11:28:43
57.   Linkmeister
There was some discussion of instant replay at the college football level in the local papers when the season began. Evidently the WAC is one of (I think) two conferences which is not using it.

Pac-10 rules here:

If you've watched any college ball this season, you'd decide it wasn't very intrusive at all, very much unlike the way it was in the NFL in its early stages of implementation.

Above posted for info purposes only.

2005-10-13 11:30:33
58.   Colorado Blue
52 - How does one admit a mistake that was a blind judgement call? The 3rd base umpire said he didn't see it, and unless the home plate ump could see through the pitcher's eyes then how did he make a mistake?

I don't know, let's just agree to disagree on that point Curtis...

But on the point of revenue, I still want tangible evidence of true economic hardship to the Angels based on them losing the series in 7. Of course, not as many wannabes and bandwagoners will be buying Angels merchandise, but in my mind the Angels will not be financially crippled by that. They may not make as much, but they'll be all right.

2005-10-13 11:34:49
59.   Curtis Lowe
58- It doesnt matter that it wont cripple the Angels it matters that it affects profit which affects season ticket prices which affects beer prices which affects etc..
2005-10-13 11:34:59
60.   Linkmeister
Oh, and does anyone remember Don Denkinger?

(First game summary here:

2005-10-13 11:43:54
61.   Bob Timmermann
For some reason, I thought Chuck Tanner was a catcher. And he was easy to check. But you're right.
2005-10-13 11:47:40
62.   popup
Colorado, I don't mind advertising on the walls. On the backstop it bothers me because there is no getting away from it when you watch tv.

#48, I assume you were never at Dodger Stadium to see Maury run the bases. I find it sad that you don't consider a stolen base an exciting part of the game, though you are perfectly within your rights to find it unexciting. Please though don't look down your nose at those who value something other than a guy who strikes out 150 times, can't run faster than Benji Molina, but who hits homeruns. The moneyballers on this site would be more appealing if they were more appealing. I have listened to DePo being interviewed a few times on the radio and I find him to more reasonable than many if not most of his followers. On more thing. The Dodgers finsihed 20 games under 500. Maybe just maybe they would have had a sligtly better record if they had anyone on the club who had decent speed.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 11:48:49
63.   dzzrtRatt
13 Could Moreno, lame as he may be...

Why is he "lame"? Based on the evidence so far, I'd have to say he's as smart as any owner in the game right now.

If this is just another way of saying, "I hate him because he owns a team I hate," no need to respond. But if you really think he's incompetent, enlighten me as to what he's done to demonstrate that.

2005-10-13 11:54:00
64.   dzzrtRatt
60 Hey, it was the 80s, wasn't everyone in baseball on coke most of the time back then? Lots of weird stuff happened that decade that in retrospect was probably drug-related.
2005-10-13 11:57:45
65.   Bob Timmermann
The debate about whether the stolen base or the home run is more exciting has been around since Babe Ruth. The World Series between the Yankees and Giants in 1921-23 were sort of the first conflict between the long ball advocates and the little ball advocates. Miller Huggins and the Yankees (thanks to Mr. Ruth) were looked down upon by John McGraw and the Giants as playing "unscientific" baseball. And since the Giants won the first two meetings in 1921 and 1922, it was assumed that "scientific" baseball would rule the day.

But the change was inevitable. The Yankees won in 1923 and until the pitching heavy 1960s, little ball disappeared. The fact that the Dodgers won World Series in 1963 and 1965 without much power was looked upon as unusual at the time. Even the 1982 Cardinals were an unusual champion.

2005-10-13 12:01:34
66.   Kayaker7
62 I find baseball played at the highest level exciting. Therefore, wasting outs and making a lot of contact but hitting weakly is not exciting. I find the duel between the pitcher and the batter exciting. I don't find it very exciting that the pitcher throws to firstbase five times before delivering a pitch because the runner is taking a lead. You must find the White Sox last night virtually thrilling.
2005-10-13 12:07:59
67.   Kayaker7
62 One more thing. Like I said, I enjoy baseball played at the highest level. Watching Ricky Henderson steal bases is exciting to watch. But watching Oscar Robles get thrown out is not.
2005-10-13 12:08:07
68.   Steve
I would just like some sort of accountability, which just doesn't exist right now.


2005-10-13 12:15:14
69.   Bob Timmermann
I'm not sure about the accountability of bingo callers. A lot of that is done by volunteers.
2005-10-13 12:20:35
70.   Curtis Lowe
How often or not did Alan trammell employ the bunt?
2005-10-13 12:25:49
71.   Bob Timmermann
The Tigers had 44 sacrifice hits last season, 3rd most in the AL. The White Sox and Royals had more. The Angels had 43.
2005-10-13 12:32:18
72.   Curtis Lowe
71- Is Trammell known for bunts?
2005-10-13 12:45:04
73.   Bob Timmermann
Trammell is known for managing a bad offense in a pitchers park.
2005-10-13 12:45:19
74.   Colorado Blue
My name is Colorado Blue and I like attempted base stealing, throws over to first, pitchers who "bat", and egotisical/megalomaniacal umpires who want to rule the Earth.
I didn't think I had a problem until now.
2005-10-13 12:56:20
75.   Bob Timmermann

I'm sorry, but we will have to shun you from now on. I've talked to some Amish about this (since they don't use telephones I had to yell really loud) and they told me how to peform a proper shunning.

I may watch "Witness" again to brush up.

2005-10-13 12:57:55
76.   Penarol1916
69. Oh no, bingo callers are actually paid and it is an extremely stressful profession. I remember when I worked at a bingo hall as a way for our traveling team to make money in high school, those bingo players are a sad lot that will practically kill a caller for making a mistake, although not as badly as someone who calls out a false bingo.
2005-10-13 13:06:01
77.   dzzrtRatt
74 What about long, wet kisses that last for three days?
2005-10-13 13:07:30
78.   Curtis Lowe
76- Is there Instant Replay in Bingo?
2005-10-13 13:09:49
79.   Curtis Lowe
How well do you think it will go over with Dodger fans if Depo hires Ron Wotus a current Giant as our new manager? Seeing as how the majority thought Jim Tracy shouldnt have been fired. Riots? Abortions? Reruns of Will and Grace marathons?
2005-10-13 13:13:32
80.   Colorado Blue
77 - Yes! And a Constitutional amendment outlawing artificial turf!
2005-10-13 13:15:25
81.   Bob Timmermann
I think Ron Wotus's selection would be greeted with widescale yawns. Or be immediately tabbed as a no-name pawn of the evil Paul DePodesta (Destroyer of Worlds).

At least with Terry Collins, there would be people who remember him.

With Trammell, his 43-119 season would be brought up all the time.

Royster's bad year with Milwaukee would be emphasized too.

2005-10-13 13:20:08
82.   Vishal
[75] i have an amish friend. they use telephones, occasionally. they don't keep them in their own homes, however.
2005-10-13 13:23:49
83.   Colorado Blue
81 - I think Trammel carries some weight that would help those with humility and self-restraint not jump to conclusions.

Then there's the bozos over at the LAT, so yeah, you're probably right Bob.

I'm hoping Orel is on List B, or at least being enticed to interview for pitching coach.

Oh wait, I forgot... I'm being shunned.

2005-10-13 13:26:25
84.   Bob Timmermann

The Dodgers did not play a single game on artifical turf this year. That was the first time that happened since 1965, the first year of the Astrodome when it had "grass".

2005-10-13 13:29:04
85.   dzzrtRatt
84 everytime you think the world is going to hell in a bucket, you are reminded there is such a thing as progress.
2005-10-13 13:32:59
86.   Kayaker7
77 Or long walks in the rain.
2005-10-13 13:42:56
87.   Bob Timmermann
This was from if anyone is looking for anything close to a precedent for last night's to-do at The Cell.

July 20, 1947, St. Louis at Brooklyn: In the top of the ninth with the Cards ahead 2-0, Ron Northey hits a high fly deep to the wall in right center. The Dodgers CF Pete Reiser leaps but can't catch it, and after a couple of seconds the ball drops back on the field where RF Dixie Walker fields it, relays it to 2B Eddie Stanky, whose throw nails Northey at home. The first base umpire (there was a three man crew in those days) immediately ruled the ball in play, but the other base umpire signaled to Northey that it was a homer, so Northey slowed up. He was ruled out at the plate, and the Cards protested the game saying Northey had been deceived by the umpire and would have scored if he had not slowed down.

2005-10-13 13:45:38
88.   Bob Timmermann
Whoops left out the ending:

In the bottom of the ninth, the Dodgers scored three runs to win the game before the protest by a 3-2 score. NL President Ford Frick, who later became Commissioner, upheld the protest and awarded Northey a home run. However, he did not order the game resumed in the top of the ninth with the Cards ahead 3-0, which would have been the normal procedure called for by the rules. He allowed the Dodgers' runs to stand and ruled the game a 3-3 tie. (We can only speculate on what he would have decided if the Dodgers had hit a homer in the bottom of the ninth and scored four runs.) All the records counted except for the pitchers' win and loss. The game was replayed in its entirety as part of a doubleheader on August 18 that the Dodgers won.

Retrosheet's Dave Smith wrote an article about this game, which has more details, in the Society for American Baseball Research publication The Baseball Research Journal, Number 33, (2004).

And that's the rest of the story....

2005-10-13 13:49:00
89.   Kevin Maxwell
What do you call a man with is entire
arm shoved into a horse's rear end?

An "Amish mechanic"

Robin Williams

2005-10-13 14:05:34
90.   Curtis Lowe
What does a managerial canidate go through in a typical head coach interview for a MLB team? And was Depo involved in any way with the hiring of Macha in Otown.
2005-10-13 14:30:10
91.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
62 I think it's a common misconception to say that "Moneyballers" hate stolen bases. Joe Morgan embodies this view by making the point that it wasn't the Moneyball approach that helped the Red Sox to the championship last year, it was Dave Roberts' stolen base.

He's wrong, as usual. Moneyballers don't hate stolen bases, they hate caught stealings. Roberts, as one of the highest-percentage base stealers in the game, fits pretty well with the philosophy. The stolen base is a great play if you can succeed as often as he does, and that point wasn't lost on the Red Sox front office.

2005-10-13 14:48:01
92.   Telemachos
91 Moneyball can also really be defined as simply exploiting weaknesses in the market and valuing outs and on-base percentage higher than baseball minds traditionally have done.

There was an article somewhere (Baseball Prospectus) that pointed out that Brian Sabean's philosophy of hiring older veterans was, in a way, a sort of Moneyball philosophy, because he was targeting players who had lost their "value" due to age.

But let's face it -- "Moneyball" has sadly been defined by the masses as "don't steal and wait for the three-run homer".

2005-10-13 14:51:30
93.   Kayaker7
92 Exactly. If we were in an alternate universe where guys who strike out a lot, walk alot and hit a lot of homeruns were overvalued, then the "Moneyballer" would find the guys that steal bases at a 80% success rate.
2005-10-13 14:54:30
94.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Agreed. "Moneyball" really only says that speed is overvalued, not that it is useless.
2005-10-13 14:58:05
95.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
And really, that's why the Moneyball backlash is so amazing to me. Most other industries long ago figured out that it is harmful to your business, and possibly crippling, to overpay for the goods and services you need. This is not a revolutionary concept, except in baseball.
2005-10-13 14:59:37
96.   Jon Weisman
91 - And as many seem to forget, Roberts reached base by pinch-running for a batter who walked. Which is not to say that Moneyball is all about walking, but only that the Roberts moment was even less of an anti-Moneyball moment than commonly thought.

Roberts was acquired for next-to-nothing. That makes it a Moneyball move for the Red Sox to get him. DePodesta has expressed his disappointment in himself for giving Roberts away. He was no All-Star or 162-gamer, but he had value.

2005-10-13 15:01:30
97.   Langhorne
65 I believe it was John McGraw who advocated the use of hand signals by umpires. He did this so that his deaf players, Taylor and Hoy, would know what was being called.

This reminds me of a story. Richie Ashburn was trying to steal third base. The umpire, Beans Reardon, called him safe but at the same time made the out signal with his hand. Beans then declared Asburn out. Ashburn jumped up to argue. Reardon told him, "You know you were safe and I know you were safe, but 30,000 people saw me call you out, so you're out."

To me, this story is an example of what I love about baseball and is worth more than all the instant replays and accountability in the world. Public Servants should be accountable. Arbiters of a children's game should not. They do as well as anyone could and that's good enough for me.

2005-10-13 15:03:34
98.   Telemachos
Here's also what I don't understand. Sports-talk radio is driven by "controversy" -- if not actual controversy, then a host who can inspire and convince people to call in and argue with him. I've always been surprised that no one in a major market has hired a pro-Moneyball host, if for no other reason than it would inspired heated -- and interesting -- debate, instead of the completely idiotic crud that usually fills the airwaves.
2005-10-13 15:06:20
99.   Bob Timmermann

I believe the current school of thought on umpire's hand signals is that they were started by an umpire who was working a game and had some deaf friends watching.

Hoy and McGraw weren't on the same team. However, McGraw did manage a pitcher who went by the name of Dummy Taylor and played for the Giants from 1900-1908.

This leads me to wonder if Curtis Pride is travelling with the Angels and what he would have done in Pierzynski's situation.

2005-10-13 15:07:39
100.   Bob Timmermann

Then you'd have C-SPAN like radio chat. And it would put people to sleep in their cars and they would go careening off the road.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-10-13 15:10:56
101.   oldbear
I'd vote in favor of an auto-mated strike zone. I think it would improve the quality of the game.
2005-10-13 15:21:18
102.   Langhorne
Luther "Dummy" Taylor was a Giant. He also went along on several off season exhibition tours with McGraw. McGraw learned sign language (and asked his other players to learn it) so he could talk with his deaf pitcher. This backfired once when he cursed an umpire in sign language only to find that the umpire knew sign language. McGraw was tossed out of the game. After his playing days Taylor went back to his home town in Iowa were he taught and coached baseball at a deaf school.
2005-10-13 15:22:10
103.   Kayaker7
101 This is sad, but I find Gameday's balls and strikes more believable. Like I mentioned before, Isringhausen got a lot of generous calls last night.
2005-10-13 15:27:40
104.   Telemachos
100 No, just imagine the Moneyball equivalent of Vic the Brick.


That's too scary to imagine.

2005-10-13 15:31:00
105.   Kayaker7
I have no clue what you guys are talking about, as far as sports radio goes. My radio is perpetually on NPR, except for live broadcasts of Dodger games.
2005-10-13 15:33:50
106.   Bob Timmermann
If there was a sabermetric-oriented sports talk radio show, it would be like to listening to a geekier version of Terry Gross.
2005-10-13 15:37:18
107.   Kayaker7
I like Terry Gross. She sounds so sexy on the radio. I was disappointed when I saw her picture. I would have been happier with my imagined picture of Terry.
2005-10-13 15:38:18
108.   Langhorne
And on the history front, 45 years ago today the Pirates beat the Yankees 10-9 in game seven of the World Series. It featured a rather famous 9th inning home run.

2005-10-13 15:39:55
109.   Sushirabbit
Terry Gross is to Dynamite is to Mark
2005-10-13 15:40:42
110.   Bob Timmermann
I've seen Terry Gross in person.

She's about 4'10" and probably weighs about 90 lbs soaking wet. I think she needs to weigh herself down in strong winds.

2005-10-13 15:42:31
111.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
106 Put Plaschke and Neyer in the same booth, kind of like a baseball "Crossfire." You wouldn't listen to that? It would give every conceivable listener something to be angry about, and that's pretty much talk radio's mission statement.
2005-10-13 15:45:23
112.   Bob Timmermann
Speaking of Game 7 of the 1960 World Series, I hark back to one of my hangups which is the length of games. That game had 19 runs, 25 hits, and 5 walks. There were also 5 mid-inning pitching changes and a delay for a severe throat injury to Tony Kubek.

Total time of game: 2 hours and 36 minutes.

2005-10-13 15:46:33
113.   Bob Timmermann
Rob Neyer's voice is sort of like Plaschke's. That would end the similarity.
2005-10-13 15:47:38
114.   JSN
I havn't posted since sometime in early August because I was making the move from Santa Barbara/LA to Charlotte, NC in a tactical career move (college to anything). Anyways the demise of our boys coincided nicely with the move and I was able to give up my dogerthoughts obsession for a while.

But for some reason reading that Beane is interviewing Orel Hershiser struck some primitive nerve with me that was the catalyst for my return. Thus I offer up this prayer:

Dear Gods of Summer,
Please don't let this happen. I don't even necessarily want O.H. managing for us...I just don't want him managing for anyone else, at least while we too are looking for a manager... It seems to me that if he can work under Beane he could work under Depo AND there's that little Dodger history thing you bunch are so fond of.

Yet, upon reflection, dear Gods, I would be pacified by some good, healthy players instead.

Humbly yours, JSN


2005-10-13 15:48:42
115.   Bob Timmermann
Again, I'm shut out in all the Nobel Prize categories.

It's a conspiracy I tell you. I've done a lot for peace.

And I think my RDGCs are far more interesting than anything Harold Pinter writes!

2005-10-13 15:53:47
116.   Vishal
seriously, bob. what's elbaradei got that you don't have? if there was a final quiz for the nobel peace prize i bet you'd beat him out.
2005-10-13 15:56:39
117.   Bob Timmermann
You could send me to Iraq and I could go and not find anything either!

I can do the same in other countries too!

But does ElBaradei know what's the most runs the Dodgers have ever given up in one game? Huh?

Does he know anything important? I dare say not.

Besides, they give out the Nobels on my birthday. It would be a cool present. I might even get enough money out of it to buy a small townhouse somewhere.

2005-10-13 16:09:07
118.   blue22
Ken Rosenthal is reporting the Padres and Brian Giles are close to a long term contract.

2005-10-13 16:11:36
119.   popup
Bob, there was a game very similiar to the 1947 game you described that I saw. End of 1964 between the Braves and Phillies, with the Phillies taking the season into the tank. Braves had runner on third with one out, could have been no outs, but if I remember correctly this play ended the inning. Braves hitter, I think it was Rico Carty, hits a bloop into left that the left fielder either caught or trapped, could not tell which. Umpire closest to the play clearly gives the safe sign. Runner on third scores and Phillies, led by Mauch, go ballistic. Umpire ends up changing his decision, ruling the hitter out. Braves go ballistic. Game resumes and Phillies appeal at third, saying runner did not tag up after the catch. Ump rules in Phillies favor for a doubleplay and the run is taken off the board. Braves go ballistic again. Ended up the Braves played the game under protest. However, the Phils ended up losing the game anyway despite the play, so the protest went by the boards. Craziest thing I think I have seen on a baseball field. Last night was nothing compared to that.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 16:12:10
120.   Steamer
96. And speaking of the value of walks, Alex Rodriguez had an OBP of .435 in the playoffs, due to six walks and a pair of HBPs.
2005-10-13 16:14:44
121.   Jon Weisman
120 - Is your real name either Stanley or Bud Furillo?
2005-10-13 16:15:08
122.   Kayaker7
117 You'd make an interesting "Fresh Air" interview.
2005-10-13 16:15:51
123.   popup
#111, I think it would give me a headache.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 16:17:54
124.   regfairfield
120 So...A-Rod had a pretty decent post season then, despite the fact Skip Bayless called him C-Minus-Rod abount 50 times in his last article?

Bayless, wrong? I never.

2005-10-13 16:25:36
125.   Bob Timmermann


St. Louis


2005-10-13 16:25:44
126.   Xeifrank
Just got back from China. I was happy to see that Jim Tracy is no longer with the team. I guess some prayers do get answered. The trip was an interesting one to say the least. I got to see many wonderful and beautiful historical sites, but towing along a 15 month old baby was difficult. I got to climb the Great Wall, visit Tiananmen Square, The Forbidden City (in which my daughter had a great time running around and got filthy dirty), The Summer Palace and the Terra Cotta soldiers in the city of Xian. In Beijing we were able to stay in the hotel/dorm at the Chinese National Sports Training Facility. Most of the atheletes were gone, participating in a competition, but I was told that Yao Ming was there about 2 months ago. The food was great, I enjoyed the Beijing Duck, dumplings and hot pot. On the downside chinese cities have very poor air quality. Beijing smells a bit like a campfire and the sky is so dirty you can barely see any of the skyline. There are tons of people, many of whom ride bikes alongside wild taxi drivers and other cars. Definitely not a place to rent a car or be a pedestrian. If I had to walk anywhere, I would stand in the middle of a pack of people and just cross with them. To me, a crosswalk just seemed like a good place to get ran over by a bus, car, moped or bike. I was able to practice my chinese alot and proudly was able to buy a map at the bookstore and order a meal in a restaraunt all in chinese. Anyways, it's glad to be back and see dodger thoughts still up and running. I tried to visit DT while I had access to the internet in China but it seemed like the site was blocked. Perhaps Jon had a post up about Taiwanese Independence or something? :)
vr, Xeifrank
2005-10-13 16:27:14
127.   popup
#121, Jon, maybe his name is Stan Williams, Dodger pitcher whose name probably should not be mentioned on this site. Steamer is/was nickname for Williams.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 16:28:32
128.   joekings
Supposedly there's no Nobel Prize for Mathematics because Nobel's wife had an affair with a mathematician.
2005-10-13 16:29:26
129.   Bob Timmermann
Welcome back, xeifrank.

So, anybody watch "Lost" last night? Which new shows this season are likely to last?

We had to wait to have this discussion.

2005-10-13 16:29:41
130.   popup
Welcom back X

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 16:30:48
131.   Colorado Blue
101 - I'd quit following baseball. Period.
2005-10-13 16:31:23
132.   popup
Bob, I saw Lost. Was watching the 9th inning of the baseball game.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 16:32:02
133.   Strike4
Most of us used to think that during a game a home plate umpire would only raise his fist in the air because a player was out. Last night, the first 26 times an umpire raised his fist was because somebody was being called out. But for literally one brief moment, the Home Plate Umpire Eddings' fist call meant something else. I mean, what a time to decide to examine his manicure. Or maybe it was a bicep spasm. Maybe he really just wanted someone from the first base dugout to come on over for a visit. Or maybe he was asking for yesterday's lunch check. The good news is, I'm sure an umpire's on field fist call will revert back to one meaning from here on out.
2005-10-13 16:34:47
134.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Jason Phillips on the Fox pregame show.
2005-10-13 16:36:12
135.   Bob Timmermann
Phillips has been on a few of the pregame shows. The only place I've seen him though was in places where I could see, but not hear.

Sort of like last night's theme!

2005-10-13 16:36:21
136.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
They want his perspective on the Angels play last night. I thought he was a 1b?
2005-10-13 16:36:52
137.   das411
Good to see you back Xei, I started posting right around when you left so nice to finally "meet".

Our discussion of The Strikeout starts at about 108 on yesterday's LCS thread, I think the link to the article/video is in the 260s. You have a lot of catching up to do!

vr, das411 :)

2005-10-13 16:37:02
138.   LetsGoDodgers
The Amish mechanic joke kills me.
2005-10-13 16:37:14
139.   Colorado Blue
134 - Is he wearing his goggles?
126 - Welcome back Xei!
2005-10-13 16:39:31
140.   Bob Timmermann
Phillips was wearing very small glasses when I saw him. He actually cleans up pretty well.
2005-10-13 16:39:38
141.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Yep, they had him put his goggles on.
2005-10-13 16:40:16
142.   Jon Weisman
SportsByBrooks with a personal Eddings story.

2005-10-13 16:40:31
143.   Kayaker7
Perlozzo is the new A's manager, according to Yahoo! sports.
2005-10-13 16:40:57
144.   Jon Weisman
Xei - welcome back. Congrats on surviving with your kid!
2005-10-13 16:41:11
145.   Kayaker7
143 Sorry, I meant the O's.
2005-10-13 16:42:49
146.   Bob Timmermann
A - left pinky
O - right ring finger
2005-10-13 16:43:49
147.   Jon Weisman
146 - What if you're "all right?"
2005-10-13 16:44:17
148.   Kayaker7
126 This site was blocked by the Chinese guvment? Ha ha. Dodger Thoughts...promoting democracy in China.
2005-10-13 16:44:44
149.   Marty
Welcome back Xei. See any good movies? :) Seriously, I'm envious about your trip. The closest I'll probably get is my forays into Monterey Park and surroundings for the great Chinese food.
2005-10-13 16:46:00
150.   Kayaker7
146 was not a typo. I was just working along and briefly glanced at the headline and misread it. I was thinking, "Geez, that is strange. I didn't even know Beane was interviewing Perlozzo." It's been a long day.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-10-13 16:58:04
151.   Vishal
oh, no! i sure hope DT isn't blocked by the chinese government. i plan to spend the fall semester next year in china. is there anything you could do about that, jon? :)
2005-10-13 16:59:24
152.   Bob Timmermann
Dodger Thoughts will be blocked in China as long as Kuo is on the 40-man roster. Can't let people read about successful people from Taiwan!
2005-10-13 17:00:07
153.   Jon Weisman
151 - I think between now and the 2008 Olympic Games there's going to need to be some increased international website freedom chez Beijing.
2005-10-13 17:07:35
154.   Xeifrank
151. I am not sure if the site was blocked or just the DT server was bogged down. Luckily, Yahoo wasn't blocked so I was able to read and send email to friends and family. Internet cafes are very popular in China. I asked my nephew (my wife is from China) how much they charged and he said 1 Yuan per hour. 1 Yuan ~= $0.12 so at 12 cents per hour I'd say it's a pretty good bargain. But they did have 200 computers all being used. Everything was very cheap over there in US dollars. My wife loaded up on nice clothes. When we left Beijing we needed another carry on bag. She bargained the shop vendor down from 120Yuan to 30Yuan, which is less than $4. The bag would probably sell for $35 easily in the US. A big bottle of beer cost me $0.35 in the supermarket. The beer there is great. Just watch out for the rice wine, it is 60% proof. Which city will you study in?
vr, Xei
2005-10-13 17:11:20
155.   Bob Timmermann
I would have been very, very surprised if Yahoo had been blocked in China. Yahoo has made huge investments there and is also being accused of stifling dissident talk in chat rooms.
2005-10-13 17:15:19
156.   Bob Timmermann
After a day, Doug Eddings admits why some people may have been confused:
2005-10-13 17:16:08
157.   Vishal
[154] that's awesome to hear about the prices. i'm a little bit worried that a whole semester there could either go very well or very badly.

i'm applying to a program that will send me to tsinghua university in beijing.

[153] that would make a lot of sense. i probably won't have many problems, but without ever having been there, it's hard to really have a sense of it.

2005-10-13 17:16:20
158.   popup
XFrank, is there much baseball being played in China?

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-13 17:20:58
159.   King of the Hobos
118 "Jim Bowden, uncertain of whether he will remain Nationals GM after the team is sold, could surface as a candidate for the Devil Rays and Diamondbacks"

Please make that a reality...

2005-10-13 17:21:57
160.   das411
...did they just show Eckstein's stats from when he was with the LAA?

Does not compute.

2005-10-13 17:24:27
161.   Bob Timmermann
Jeff Angus talks to Mike Scioscia about his philosophy on how baseball should be played:

2005-10-13 17:32:53
162.   Vishal
[161] thanks for posting that, bob. too bad the tape was garbled for so much of the interview.
2005-10-13 17:35:44
163.   natepurcell
so if giles signs a long term deal with the padres, thats going to put a wrench in my "dodgers 2006 plan for sucess" excel worksheet.

odalis+ ?? will get us wilkerson...

2005-10-13 17:41:41
164.   King of the Hobos
163 The Rosenthal thing didn't really say he'd be signed, just that they were trying. he's going to try free agency either way. Unfortunately, it looks like we'll have to give up a draft pick (albeit 2nd rounder) to get him
2005-10-13 17:42:30
165.   King of the Hobos
164 That "either way" doesn't make much sense (as he can't test the market if he were signed). Just ignore that
2005-10-13 17:48:11
166.   natepurcell
even though we would be giving up a 2nd rounger. we are going to get a first or 2nd for losing weaver anyways.
2005-10-13 17:55:26
167.   Mark
We don't need Giles!

Look at his face:

That's the sort of "I've got a stick up my rear" pose we don't need in this town.

2005-10-13 17:56:47
168.   Telemachos
161 A very insightful interview. I have more respect for Scioscia than I did before. He has a very cohesive and adaptive philosophy that can flex based on the personnel he has available. Kudos to him, and to the Angels.
2005-10-13 18:27:24
169.   das411
Hey Xei, did they let you watch that space launch a couple of days ago?
2005-10-13 18:28:56
170.   King of the Hobos
Eckstein uses big words, like "funnest." At least his mastery of the English language is on par with the age he appears to be (roughly 12 years old)
2005-10-13 18:34:20
171.   das411
NOOOO! "Just before this broadcast, Scooter signed a lifetime contract with FOX"
2005-10-13 18:34:41
172.   King of the Hobos
Scooter has signed a lifetime contract with FOX. Too bad, I was really hoping he'd become our new pitching coach
2005-10-13 18:37:09
173.   fawnkyj
My idea for Reggie sanders is looking better now that Giles might resign huh?
2005-10-13 18:38:42
174.   D4P

If Fox keeps Scooter but cancels Arrested Development, I'll, I'll, well, I don't know what I'll do, but it won't be good.

2005-10-13 18:45:34
175.   das411
173 - Plus you would pick up the Reggie Sanders Playoff Streak. Especially since Kenny Lofton's is now dead.

Why do the "Prison Break" ads have air raid sirens?

2005-10-13 18:53:00
176.   Bob Timmermann
Reggie Sanders wife grew up in the San Fernando Valley I've learned.

He's married to another proud Kennedy High alum.

2005-10-13 19:01:32
177.   Vishal
"lifetime contract" depends on how long scooter lives. the execs could decide that he dies tomorrow. mascots' lives are rather arbitrary like that.
2005-10-13 19:02:24
178.   das411
Wow, how far would Eckstein have gone if that ball had caught him?
2005-10-13 19:07:14
179.   Bob Timmermann
I could sign my cat to a lifetime contract tonight.

However, I'm having her put to sleep tomorrow.

She deserves better than Scooter.

2005-10-13 19:08:32
180.   Marty
Man, this is my first real look at Oswalt. I'm very impressed.
2005-10-13 19:08:57
181.   Vishal
[178] way to kill the mood, bob. sorry about your cat.

man, roy oswalt is awesome.

2005-10-13 19:09:08
182.   King of the Hobos
177 That's what they said about Youppi! but look what heppened to him
2005-10-13 19:10:16
183.   Marty
179 Sorry to hear that Bob. It's never an easy thing. I'm really not looking forward to that decision with my dogs. Luckily, they are young, so it is hopefully a ways off.
2005-10-13 19:13:37
184.   Bob Timmermann
Sorry, didn't mean to get everyone down. I probably should have done this a while ago.

I just wish cats were so darn stoic. They play with pain. I will get a new one and call him JD perhaps.

2005-10-13 19:14:25
185.   Bob Timmermann

Marty, you didn't see Oswalt when he pitched against the Dodgers? He had a really bad first inning. He lost a game to Edwin Jackson!

2005-10-13 19:18:20
186.   Marty
185 Nope, I've only read about him here on this site. Now I understand why some of the people here really wanted to go after him in the off season.
2005-10-13 19:26:25
187.   Marty
Ya gotta love Brenley. He contradicted himself in two sentences. It was the most inopportune time to give up a homer, but fortunately it came with no one on.
2005-10-13 19:34:45
188.   Marty
So, if a guy writes a comment on a blog and there's no one around to read it, is it still badly written and poorly thought out?
2005-10-13 19:37:00
189.   Bob Timmermann
Sorry, I was doublechecking on how to get to Fillmore which is my destination tomorrow. Originally it was Montebello.

Montebello and Fillmore. They are not near each other.

Looks like I just go up the 210 to the 5 and then head across California 126 to beautiful downtown Fillmore.

2005-10-13 19:38:36
190.   Marty
Be careful Bob, I just read about stalling problems with the Prius.
2005-10-13 19:40:14
191.   Bob Timmermann
Fortunately that problem has been resolved. Well, if it breaks down, it's still under warranty!
2005-10-13 19:40:51
192.   Bob Timmermann
The NY Post is reporting that the Yankees are going to give Matsui a 3-year/$35 million deal.
2005-10-13 19:46:43
193.   D4P
Is the Post reporting that Matsui will accept the deal, or just that the Yanks are offering it?
2005-10-13 19:46:44
194.   Bob Timmermann
So Marty if my car stalls in Fillmore, will you drive out there to pick me up?
2005-10-13 19:47:34
195.   Vishal
is it just me or is oswalt getting squeezed big time?
2005-10-13 19:49:14
196.   Bob Timmermann
No word if Matsui will accept. I would think he would sign or settle for something similar. I still think he either plays for the Yankees in 2006 or the Giants.

But not the Giants of San Francisco.

The man has spent his entire baseball career playing for the two most presitigious baseball franchises in two different countries.

I don't Hideki Matsui doing something like patrolling left field at Camden Yards.

2005-10-13 19:50:10
197.   Bob Timmermann
I don't see Hideki Matsui ...
2005-10-13 19:50:57
198.   Marty
Is Fillmore on the way to Paso Robles? We could combine it for a "Sideways" type trip.
2005-10-13 19:51:56
199.   D4P
Do you think the Dodgers count as a "prestigious baseball franchise" any more? I'm not sure.
2005-10-13 19:52:13
200.   Bob Timmermann
Fillmore is on the way to Paso Robles if you want to go through all the farms of Ventura County. You end up in Santa Paula before you get dumped out on to 101.

I think you can go out and stop and eat lots of carrots along the way.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-10-13 19:53:11
201.   Marty
What is the common denominator between Montebello and Fillmore? I've got to know.
2005-10-13 19:53:49
202.   Bob Timmermann

For someone who has played for the Yomiuri Giants, the LA Dodgers are not a prestigious franchise. The Yankees are. No other team is.

Players for the Yomiuri Giants and fans of the Yomiuri Giants are generally insufferable.

2005-10-13 19:56:21
203.   Bob Timmermann
I was supposed to cover a high school football game in Montebello, but the Daily News switched me to a game in Fillmore because no one else would drive out there. It's really not all that far away. It's a little over an hour's drive.

It looks further away because it's in farmland. Farms connote "middle of nowhere" to people.

Fillmore, for some reason never fully explained to me, took a big hit in the 1994 Northridge quake although areas in between Norhtridge and Fillmore were relatively undamaged.

2005-10-13 19:57:48
204.   Marty
203 Interesting. Santa Monica also took a big hit from the earthquake, even though you would not think of Samo and Northridge usually.
2005-10-13 20:00:17
205.   Bob Timmermann
Chris Burke for Mayor of Houston!
2005-10-13 20:00:20
206.   King of the Hobos
203 I didn't realize that, possibly as I was in one of the areas in between Northridge and Fillmore

Astros finally get a hit with RISP. I think we should trade them Phillips (he can replace Ausmus!)

2005-10-13 20:01:34
207.   Bob Timmermann
If it weren't for Ausmus, the Braves and Astros would have finished Sunday's game in 9 innings.
2005-10-13 20:05:21
208.   fanerman
What do you say when you're having a debate and you make the winning argument? Like something that sounds like the end of a play. I'm sure I read it here. Thanks.
2005-10-13 20:05:35
209.   Uncle Miltie
Thom Brenneman just made Bob Brenly look stupid (which isn't very hard to do). Brenly was talking about how you don't bunt with your middle of the order hitters. Brenneman reminded him that he had Matt Williams bunt in the 2001 World Series. Brenly defended it by saying that he had seen Williams bunt in batting practice and knew that he could bunt. The last time Williams bunted in the regular season was 1990 with the Giants.
2005-10-13 20:05:55
210.   natepurcell
hmmm maybe we should scratch the sanders idea too. i think he just broke his tailbone and maybe whiplashed his neck there...
2005-10-13 20:06:54
211.   Vishal
2005-10-13 20:06:56
212.   D4P
Purcey - Where did you hear that Giles was likely to resign with the Pads?
2005-10-13 20:08:48
213.   natepurcell
hobos posted a link.
2005-10-13 20:09:06
214.   natepurcell
or i think it was hobos.... maybe someone else.
2005-10-13 20:11:28
215.   regfairfield
Going back a little bit here, but how is Wilkerson that much better than Werth?
2005-10-13 20:11:55
216.   D4P
Oh well. We've still got Grabowksi.
2005-10-13 20:17:55
217.   King of the Hobos
215 Look at his 2004 stats. 2005 was a injury-riddled off year
2005-10-13 20:19:07
218.   D4P
Am I the only one who would find it humorous if the Astros were to win the World Series the year after Jeff Kent left?
2005-10-13 20:19:54
219.   King of the Hobos
212 It was a Rosenthal article. It basically said they were discussing a long term deal, but Giles would test the market. They weren't very close (although it stressed they weren't that far apart either)
2005-10-13 20:21:51
220.   D4P
Thanks. While I haven't seen any mention of Giles and the Dodgers in the media, a lot of fans (myself included) think he'd make a sensible addition to the squad.
2005-10-13 20:23:07
221.   regfairfield
217 I could apply the same reasoning to Werth. As it stands, they both have similar isolated patience, and both slugged poorly after an injury. Granted, Wilkerson has actually hit 30 home runs before, but I see no reason why Werth couldn't do that healthy.
2005-10-13 20:29:48
222.   trainwreck
Nate, when do we see the 2006 Dodgers excel sheet?
2005-10-13 20:35:06
223.   das411
218 - No, but we would have to call it the Curse Of Carlos Beltran.

'cause Chris Burke is now batting .625

2005-10-13 20:38:09
224.   Xeifrank
203. Ahh Fillmore. Probably took a hit in the Northridge quake due to all the old brick buildings you will find in the scenic downtown area. Fillmore is probably most famous as being the gateway to the Sespe, where the Condors were relocated many years ago.
204. Funny you mention Santa Monica and the Northridge quake, as that is where I was during the temblor. It was definitely a shocking experience and I escaped with only a few scratches from items that fell on me in my girlfriend (at that time)'s bedroom. The brick facade of the church across the street ended up on the sidewalk a few feet from my parked car. A few buildings were collapsed and windows were busted out of most businesses. I was also up in the bay area during the Loma Creada(sp?) quake. It's never a good idea to live near me if you don't like quakes. Look what happened when I went to Asia. vr, Xei
2005-10-13 20:39:34
225.   King of the Hobos
223 I don't see the Royals winning the WS last year, not much of a curse
2005-10-13 20:40:29
226.   Romyrick
Must haves for the 2006 Off Season:

Kevin Brown and Darren Dreifort

2005-10-13 20:56:34
227.   alex 7

fanerman, put your hands on your hips, tilt your head a bit and say "So there!"

2005-10-13 20:57:07
228.   King of the Hobos
226 In theory, they could be decent NRIs
2005-10-13 20:59:03
229.   Marty
I was working for Copley Newspapers, who owned the Torrance and Santa Monica newspapers in 1984 when the quake hit. The SM paper took a lot of damage, but was still functional. That was a lot better than the Daily News. We ended up putting their paper out for them for that day. I think a 12 page no-ad paper.
2005-10-13 21:02:07
230.   King of the Hobos has yet to post its daily "the candidate interviewed" article. Maybe Wotus decided to not interview with the Dodgers, or got stuck in traffic...

Or maybe realized those "articles" were useless

2005-10-13 21:02:23
231.   Bob Timmermann
You would think that West L.A. would want its own paper since most of its residents are so annoyingly provincial about where they live. But after the Outlook died, nobody filled the gap.

Other parts of the area have its own suburban papers: Daily News, Pasadena Star-News, SGV Tribune, Daily Breeze, Press-Telegram, Ventura Star, AV Press, Press-Enterprise, SB Sun, to name a few.

2005-10-13 21:03:09
232.   Bob Timmermann
Maybe Ron Wotus remembered he was Jewish on the way to the interview.
2005-10-13 21:03:25
233.   D4P
See: Scott Erickson
2005-10-13 21:03:59
234.   D4P
Yes: those articles are useless.
2005-10-13 21:04:30
235.   King of the Hobos
233 Hence the "in theory." NRIs don't need to be placed on the roster afterall...
2005-10-13 21:07:00
236.   Marty
231 Yes, it's perplexing. You can even make the argument today that the smaller suburban papers have a better future in L.A. than the large metros, (I hope it isn't true). But nothing has filled the void in Samo.
2005-10-13 21:07:06
237.   D4P
Yeah. I guess Depo forgot that part.
2005-10-13 21:12:27
238.   Romyrick

Dreifort and Brown are much better than Erickson.

In fact i'm willing to be Brown would turn into a servicable pitcher away from the yankee's defense.

Driefort's pheriphals are pretty dam good and it wouldn't matter if either of these guys stayed healthy bc they'd be making less than 3 million between the two of them.

2005-10-13 21:14:12
239.   D4P
Wow. I can't believe I'm seeing Dodger fans making a serious case for keeping Dreifort around.

But I do agree that he was a decent pitcher when he got a chance to pitch.

2005-10-13 21:25:39
240.   Vishal

well, the problem was never dreifort as a pitcher. or even as a human being. he seemed like a genuinely good guy with a lot of talent and grit and heart, whose body totally failed him.

the problem with dreifort was purely his contract and his inability to live up to it because he couldn't stay healthy at all. dreifort on the DL most of the season at $11 million really really sucks. drefort on the DL for most of the season for $500,000 isn't so bad at all. and if he CAN stay healthy for 50+ innings or so and perform halfway decently, then it works out. it's a gamble but the downside is low if he's just a cheap NRI.

2005-10-13 21:27:48
241.   underdog
What Vishal said about Dreifort.
Great talent, but as brittle as a house made out of spun sugar.

Man, Oswalt is impressive. I wish the Dodgers had him. I hear they make a play for Oswalt* in the off-season.

*Patton Oswalt.

2005-10-13 21:55:17
242.   sanchez101
As long as we're talking about former dodgers, i wouldnt mind taking chance on Guillermo Mota if Florida is as sour on him as it seems.
2005-10-13 22:10:22
243.   das411
Isn't Nomo-san available too?

...does anybody on this board watch "Boston Legal", btw?

2005-10-14 01:41:55
244.   Tommy Naccarato
I do and its a great show, especially last Thrusday night. Shatner was at one of his all-time best.

I was out in Fillmore a few weeks ago on the way back from Ojai. (took the longer but much more pretty back road on the way back) What a great plac. When your out there, you feel like your a million miles from home. It's a great place, and hard to believe your just an hour or so from L.A.

If you ever wanted to see what 1920-1950's San Fernando Valley looked like, just go out to Fillmore.

2005-10-14 01:42:56
245.   Tommy Naccarato
Make that last Tuesday night! (Boston Legal)
2005-10-14 02:09:16
246.   dzzrtRatt
Why don't they rebroadcast shows like Boston Legal at 2 a.m.? When insomnia strikes, that would be perfect. They could sell out the ad slots with pitches for sleeping pills, beds, pillows, soothing noise generating machines...

Anyway, I figured it was a lock that the Dodgers would invite Darren Dreifort to spring training next year, without a contract or maybe with a minor league deal. Why not? He's certainly not too old. Not a lot of wear and tear on that arm over the past four years, and when he was good, he was one of the toughest pitchers to hit I've ever seen. His record would've been better, but he was one of those pitchers (like Weaver, Perez and Lowe) who would lose focus for one inning, and during that inning the opposing team would score anywhere from 1-6 runs off him. The other innings, he was unhittable. In '04, he was pretty effective as a 6th or 7th inning set-up pitcher in the first half, until he got hurt.

As for inviting Kevin Brown back...I can't believe he'd even want to come here. He lives in Georgia and hated playing away from his family (so Malone threw in the use of a private plane for a certain number of trips home during the season). So I figure he might come into the Braves' camp as a non-roster invitee, or maybe one of the teams in Florida. If he was in Vero Beach, it would be under some kind of duress, i.e. he lost a bet with Satan.

2005-10-14 07:25:37
247.   King of the Hobos
Lett is apparently going to be 3B coach for the Pirates, probably meaning Hoffman isn't going. I'm not sure retaining Hoffman would be that important though

The Mariners want Wallach as their new hitting coach

2005-10-14 09:02:40
248.   Vishal
The Mariners want Wallach as their new hitting coach

maybe it's because i haven't slept all night, but i find this hilarious.

2005-10-14 09:08:06
249.   Kayaker7
247 When Hoffman was out with the head injury, I thought Lett made a few questionable decisions to send/hold runners, as the third base coach.

248 Maybe it's funny because the Mariners realized that Beltre is not as good as 2004 indicated. Getting Wallach is grasping for straws.

2005-10-14 09:23:04
250.   Vishal
[249] oh no, that was exactly why i found it so funny. they need to do SOMETHING to protect their multimillion-dollar investment!
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-10-14 09:47:31
251.   das411
244 , 246 - Oh man, I totally agree with both of you actually. I watched the tape last night, since I didn't want to miss the Tues ballgame...Awesome show to begin with, AND since it was at like 1am that I was watching it was even funnier!

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