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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Mostly Pointless Comparison II
2006-05-18 10:00
by Jon Weisman

Rafael Furcal's first 39 games as a Dodger:
.326 on-base percentage
.301 slugging percentage
.627 OPS
10 stolen bases in 14 attempts
28 years old

Delino DeShields' first 39 games as a Dodger:
.348 on-base percentage
.265 slugging percentage
.613 OPS
14 stolen bases in 15 attempts
25 years old

For those mostly pointlessly keeping track, here's the prequel.

Comments (212)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-05-18 10:20:23
1.   Bob Timmermann
Sheesh, you might as well compare the poor guy to Stalin.

Or someone with an even better reputation!

2006-05-18 10:23:05
2.   bluetahoe
Raffy ALWAYS starts slow. He's an on base monster in the 2nd half of seasons. You think our offense is great now. Just wait till Raffy gets going along with Kent.

The pieces are finally falling into place for our boys in blue. By the end of the month we should be in 1st place. By the end of June we should have a comfortable stranglehold on the division.

Gagne's on his way back. Baez is reverting back to his dominance he displayed last season and early this season. Saito's making a run at the rookie of the year as could fellow bullpen mate Johnny Brox. Beimel may be establishing himself as one of the best left handed set up men in the NL. Sele's been on fire since his 1st pitch in triple A. Lowe's pitched with some bad luck but he's been solid. Tomko and Penny are fighting neck and neck to see who gets the honor of making the 1st pitch in the mid summers classic in Pittsburgh.

I hardly touched on the offense. Navarro/Martin have been good and they will only get better. Nomar's looking to win 2 of 3 triple crown categories and take home an MVP trophy. Like I said, Kent's gettin it in gear as will Raffy. Aybar can hit and should hold the fort down to Mueller returns. Ethier will only improve. The centerfield combo of Repko/Lofton are constantly on base and creating havoc when they get there. Drew is healthy and being the player we need. Seanz continues to be AWESOME.


2006-05-18 10:29:34
3.   Curtis Lowe

Does that mean Ned will Trade Furcal for the next Pedro and what will Grady do with another Pedro on his hands?

Could I hire you to do my resume?

2006-05-18 10:32:30
4.   Penarol1916
2. Come on Mrs. Colletti, you're just giving yourself away when you refer to Baez as dominant.
2006-05-18 10:33:46
5.   Jon Weisman
"Mr. Burns, your campaign has the momentum of a runaway freight train. Why are you so popular?"
2006-05-18 10:36:54
6.   grandcosmo
2. For his career Furcal has an OPS of .742 before the All-Star game and .760 after the All-Star game. However he has played in over 150 more game in the pre ASG period.

In the last 3 years the numbers are .774 pre and .782 post.

2006-05-18 10:37:41
7.   Bob Timmermann
Man, I would sell my soul for a three-eyed fish right now.
2006-05-18 10:38:48
8.   dzzrtRatt
I'm okay with this team...somewhere short of love. But as long as they do better this season than last season, it will provide needed diversion.

That said, I think Colletti's painted himself into a ridiculous corner with the logjam on the left side of the infield. He can't trade who he should trade, Izturis, unless he plays him and demonstrates to other teams that he's still Izturis (or better than that.) But if Izturis does well, given Furcal's slow start, what then? Moving Furcal to third base might be one solution, but then what do we do with Mueller? I suppose he's fairly tradeable, if healthy. Or does he trade Aybar, who unlike Mueller and Izturis is inexpensive and we control him? And none of the above has any power -- under all these scenarios, we'll have a third baseman who doesn't provide corner infield power numbers.

If Nomar punches his weight at first base, that will ameliorate it, partly. But the Dodger season right now hangs on a large number of variables in which the odds are not in favor of success. We are underpowered and have an unreliable bullpen. Good starting pitching and lots of singles and doubles won't be able to overcome these shortcomings.

If the Blue Fairy gives us back the Gagne of old, then good. If the Blue Fairy keeps giving us home runs from Nomar, Kent and Drew, and maybe allocates a few to Martin and Repko, then very good. Then we can worry whether Tomko, Lowe and Sele are really the kinds of pitchers they've pretended to be this season.

2006-05-18 10:54:05
9.   Bob Timmermann
Speaking of Izturises, last night on the Angels broadcast, Rex Hudler said that the Halos would have fared better against Toronto pitcher Casey Janssen if they had had Maicer Izturis available as another lefthanded bat in the lineup.
2006-05-18 10:55:54
10.   blue horseshoe
NL Worst to NL Best? Everyone over .500 and its almost June.
2006-05-18 11:01:13
11.   GoBears
2 Funny. I'd like to spend a day in your world. So does that make Lasorda the Oompa Loompa?
2006-05-18 11:01:58
12.   Vishal
plural = izturisae? iztures?
2006-05-18 11:04:26
13.   Jon Weisman
Not that it's correct, but I've never had much of a problem with Izturii.
2006-05-18 11:08:50
14.   Bob Timmermann
Nomar Garciaparra is going to lead the league in RBI?

How? He's already 23 behind Albert Pujols. He's in 25th place.

So if Nomar wins 2 of the 3 Triple Crown categories, I'm assuming RBI would have to be one of them, unless somebody thinks he can overtake Pujols in HRs. He trails there by 14.

And just who leads the NL in batting average now?

Why of course? It's Brian McCann at .354!

2006-05-18 11:09:05
15.   Jon Weisman
Upon reflection, my comment in 5 shouldn't have been made - I meant it in fun, but now it feels sarcastic/mocking in tone. So, I apologize.
2006-05-18 11:14:19
16.   Blu2
Here's my trade offer for Cabrera:
Odalis Perez
Jose Cruze
Ricky Ledee
Ramon Martinez
Is that enough? Except for Perez not much money involved. What is nice about it is that all of those players have some attraction around the league and could be spun off for a nice collection of prospects. Wouldn't cost a thing to offer it. Repko and Navarro will soon be back, as well as Muellar. We got the guys ready in Vegas to fill the holes.
2006-05-18 11:15:21
17.   Bob Timmermann
That's a lot of players just to get Melky Cabrera! :-)

Or maybe you are thinking of Orlando Cabrera?

Or Daniel?

2006-05-18 11:15:31
18.   Nagman
14 He overtook Shawn Green?!?
2006-05-18 11:17:06
19.   Bob Timmermann
I think it was a case of McCann finally getting enough PAs to qualify.
2006-05-18 11:17:10
20.   Vishal
this is meant entirely good naturedly, but i suspect i know what bluetahoe's favorite beverage is:

2006-05-18 11:18:04
21.   Vishal
[17] i would trade all those guys for daniel cabrera in a heartbeat.
2006-05-18 11:18:10
22.   Blu2
Addition by subtraction. The team would be improved simply by removing some players so Grady can't waste a lineup spot on them. Note also that it is necessary for us to 'pay someone' to take Perez, that's why so many players.
2006-05-18 11:19:54
23.   Jon Weisman
16 - "Is that enough?"

It's an eminently unattractive package that just gets more unattractive with each additional name. So in that sense, yeah, it's plenty.

2006-05-18 11:22:40
24.   Jacob L
I'm sure Florida would take that if you add in Oscar Robles.

BTW, pending today's AL results, the Freeway Series this weekend could be a "Battle of Last Place Teams" (tm)

2006-05-18 11:24:33
25.   Steve
"Is this anything, Paul?"
2006-05-18 11:25:11
26.   Marty
16 That's like trading all you duplicate baseball cards for a Christy Mathewson. We would need to offer better players or prospects.
2006-05-18 11:27:09
27.   Vaudeville Villain

If we trade Aybar so Izturis and Furcal can get more at-bats, Ned Coletti would have made one of the worst trades of the year.

Unless he trades him for something comparable, which does not mean "proven middle relief".

2006-05-18 11:27:41
28.   Blu2
(24) 24. Jacob L
I'm sure Florida would take that if you add in Oscar Robles.

Done! Done! Done! Done! Done! Done! Done!

2006-05-18 11:28:24
29.   Jacob L
26 I pulled off a version of that trade once, only for a Mickey Mantle (granted with a crease in it). I sold the other kid on the idea that 8 or 9 brand new cards had to be better than one old one. Come to think of it, I kind of feel bad about that, but I'm not sure I even remember who the trading partner was.
2006-05-18 11:36:36
30.   thinkblue0
The pieces are finally falling into place for our boys in blue. By the end of the month we should be in 1st place. By the end of June we should have a comfortable stranglehold on the division.

you're getting a little ahead of yourself here. Just about every team in the division is playing well right now...highly doubt there's any stranglehold come July.

Gagne's on his way back. Baez is reverting back to his dominance he displayed last season and early this season. Saito's making a run at the rookie of the year as could fellow bullpen mate Johnny Brox. Beimel may be establishing himself as one of the best left handed set up men in the NL.

we have NO idea what we're going to get, if anything from Gagne. Baez has never been dominant...he's serviceable. And Beimel being one of the best set up men? Please.

Nomar's looking to win 2 of 3 triple crown categories and take home an MVP trophy.

And what two cats are those? No way in you know where he wins either HR or RBI.

Drew is healthy and being the player we need.

This is my favorite comment. You've railed on Drew since the moment he got here and now he finally gets props, but he's just being "the player we need." Drew is probably the MVP of this team right now and the most important player we have, yet he's just being the player we need while Saenz is "AWESOME". Weird.

2006-05-18 11:38:39
31.   Vishal
[28] i have a feeling jacob was being sarcastic. why would anyone trade a really good player for a lot of bad players?
2006-05-18 11:40:14
32.   blue22
31 - I think Blu2 is having a little fun with us, too.
2006-05-18 11:41:57
33.   Jon Weisman
32 - I thought of that possibility, but if that's the case, he's being very deadpan.

Are Blu2 and blue22 related?

2006-05-18 11:42:18
34.   Nagman
bah, we don't need Drew. The team is something like 4-1 on days he sits. Apparently Russ Martin is who we need.
2006-05-18 11:47:12
35.   Bob Timmermann
The Nationals have scored a run in Chicago!

The Nationals have scored!

This is not a drill.

2006-05-18 11:48:33
36.   blue22
33 - Are Blu2 and blue22 related?

First, I'm shut out of the "Best of..." book, comments section. Now this.

Jon, what have I done to deserve such harsh treatment? ;-)

2006-05-18 11:53:08
37.   joekings
I'm starting to feel a bit bad for Pittsburgh. They scored six runs in the bottom of the first inning but are now losing 9-7 in the 7th.
2006-05-18 11:54:54
38.   Vishal
[37] I'm starting to feel a bit bad for Pittsburgh

don't worry, it'll pass.

2006-05-18 11:55:33
39.   Jon Weisman
36 - Nothing. I'll have to make amends.
2006-05-18 11:56:29
40.   Steve
Like a kidney stone
2006-05-18 11:59:22
41.   fanerman
37 - You, sir, have a heart of gold.
2006-05-18 11:59:39
42.   55Dodgers
Lofton's number is better than Furcal so far....

.342 on-base percentage
.406 slugging percentage
.748 OPS
10 stolen bases in 0 attempts
38 year old

2006-05-18 12:04:24
43.   GoBears
Wow. 10 SBs in 0 attempts? He IS fast.
2006-05-18 12:13:50
44.   blue22
39 - No need, just screwin' around.

Will at UTK is reporting that Gagne may be back soon (like in a week), pending his live session tomorrow?

Great news, and hopefully it ends the Hamulack era. Baez can also continue to improve his confidence in the 7th and 8th innings now.

2006-05-18 12:18:09
45.   Linkmeister
43 Wasn't it said of Cool Papa Bell that he could get into a hotel bed between the time the switch was thrown and the time the light actually went out?

Lofton's The Second Coming of Cool Papa Bell!

2006-05-18 12:18:46
46.   Penarol1916
Anyone paying attention to the upfronts. Veronica Mars is confirmed to be coming back, on Tuesdays after Gilmore Girls, which should be a better lead-in than re-runs of America's Next Top Model. Everwood, my wife's favorite show, will not be back next season.
2006-05-18 12:19:46
47.   GoBears
45. Yeah, but electricity was slower in the old days.
2006-05-18 12:21:50
48.   Jon Weisman
Cole Hamels had a pretty good start through six innings: three hits, three walks, five strikeouts, one run. Unfortunately, he stayed in for the seventh.
2006-05-18 12:21:51
49.   Sushirabbit
Isn't Gagne throwing a BP session today?

Also, I think Mueller has been fine, he's just hurt.

2006-05-18 12:25:45
50.   Jon Weisman
46 - Paying a lot of attention, just not writing too much about it.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-05-18 12:27:23
51.   blue22
49 - 6-4-2 links the UTK article saying it was a Friday session.

48 - Chad Moeller took him deep. Chad Moeller!

Grabowski Prinicple in effect one batter after that, pulling Hamels after he walked Gabe Gross.

Hamels' control is surprisingly bad so far.

2006-05-18 12:30:20
52.   Vishal
hamels seems to be having trouble throwing from the stretch, too.
2006-05-18 12:30:36
53.   joekings
41 - Well I feel for the kids who don't know any better and can't understand why TracyBall isn't working.
2006-05-18 12:30:57
54.   blue22
And there goes the win for Young King Cole...
2006-05-18 12:33:10
55.   blue22
"Old friend" Jose Valentin just went deep for the Mets.
2006-05-18 12:34:18
56.   Steve
I have an idea. Let's take our "closer," who can't hold a three-run lead in the ninth inning, and let's bring him in with the bases loaded and two outs in the seventh. That makes so much sense.
2006-05-18 12:34:25
57.   regfairfield
Pirates fail to score in the 9th despite getting a lead off double. They lose 9-8.
2006-05-18 12:37:03
58.   regfairfield
Pirate fans have figured out Jim Tracy's lineup strategy. From the Van Slyke comments:

Every position player except for Freddy Sanchez and Ronny Paulino have the letter "J" as the first letter of their first name. Jim Tracy is prejudiced against non-"J" players. Once Joe Randa returns, Freddy's gone. If you think this is the dumbest way to put together a lineup, try explaining the lineup some other way.

2006-05-18 12:37:36
59.   Sushirabbit
I don't know what to think about Furcal, but I like the idea of guys like Kent, Garciaparra and Mueller being around for young players to watch. I think Drew has pretty good plate discipline, but Mueller has had some really impressive at bats. Or at least to my eyes, which admittedly have been pretty sleepy much of the time. Then again Kent still looks a little off and Mueller, Drew and Nomah have all had their time off.
2006-05-18 12:38:50
60.   das411
Cholly "I Need A" Manuel has cost his starters wins in back to back games now, and you guys think Grittle has trouble with his bullpen??
2006-05-18 12:40:35
61.   Jon Weisman
Jose Lima lowered his ERA from 9.31 to 8.79 today with his 4 2/3 innings of four-earned-run ball.
2006-05-18 12:44:41
62.   blue22
60 - Is it the personnel, or the strategy?

I haven't had too much trouble with Little's use of the pen, it's just that they can't pitch.

2006-05-18 12:49:26
63.   Jon Weisman
Cardinals in danger of blowing a four-run lead.
2006-05-18 12:49:43
64.   sanchez101
61. Its Lima Time!
2006-05-18 12:50:42
65.   Steve
How's Jimmy Izturis doing?
2006-05-18 12:51:13
66.   sanchez101
Has anyone noticed that Aybar has a better VORP than Mueller?
2006-05-18 12:52:15
67.   Jon Weisman
63 - Never mind.
2006-05-18 12:53:04
68.   Jon Weisman
Rangers in danger of blowing a four-run lead.
2006-05-18 12:54:03
69.   Sushirabbit
66 not me. :-) Not that I'm surprised, but is that a SS Error (Small Sample Size, sometimes known as a TracyBall Fallacy)
2006-05-18 12:57:15
70.   sanchez101
69. not really, Aybar only has 17 PA's to Mueller's 126. I think it says more about how badly Mueller was struggling before he went on the DL. His batting line on the season stands at 252/357/402.
2006-05-18 12:57:58
71.   Bob Timmermann

Lima gave up an unearned run when he dropped a throw from Carlos Delgado at first base.

2006-05-18 12:59:18
72.   Bob Timmermann
Buddy Bell has announced that Elmer Dessens will be the Royals closer now.

In case you want to grab him for your fantasy team.

2006-05-18 13:00:49
73.   JoeyP
Has anyone noticed that Aybar has a better VORP than Mueller?

Isnt VORP a counting stat? Considering Mueller played alot more games than Aybar has so far, thats impressive.

2006-05-18 13:01:34
74.   Bob Timmermann
Scott Erickson has given up a home run to Rod Barajas which has put him in to the familiar territory of having allowed more HRs than getting Ks. Granted, it's just 1/0, but it's a start.
2006-05-18 13:03:25
75.   Marty
58 They need some Ja(y)sons
2006-05-18 13:05:20
76.   Jacob L
Woh woh woh woh woh. Woh! Wait a second.

Scott Erickson is pitching?

2006-05-18 13:06:15
77.   Marty
Beltre is not in the Mariners lineup today. Is he hurt, or has Seattle figured out he can't hit?
2006-05-18 13:07:47
78.   Marty
Erickson pitched 2 innings. Gave up 2 runs, one hit, the HR and 4 walks. No K's

Sounds about right.

2006-05-18 13:08:39
79.   das411
62 - Strategy!! He has left Floyd and now King Cole in to start innings they had no business starting. What are the Geoff Gearys of the world for if not for that??

65 - Hey Steve, the Phila Inquirer was thinking of you:

MILWAUKEE - Jimmy Rollins sidled up to Bobby Abreu on Tuesday at Miller Park and offered this observation:

"Imagine how good we're going to be when you and I start hitting."

Abreu smiled.

Rollins and Abreu have been mired in prolonged slumps. Entering last night's game, Rollins was hitting just .191 (22 for 115) since April 13. Abreu was hitting just .139 (5 for 36) since April 29, although he had a .404 on-base percentage in that stretch. Manager Charlie Manuel said he has thought about dropping Rollins in the lineup to help him straighten out, but so far that has not happened.

2006-05-18 13:09:49
80.   Bob Timmermann
Not anymore, Ron Villone is in to relieve.
2006-05-18 13:10:49
81.   Marty
Van Slyke blog after today's loss:

Ugh, I don't even want to think about what he's going to do in an AL park this weekend. Common sense dictates Doumit will DH, he looked fine last night taking Burnitz sized cuts at the plate, but Tracyball dictates that Hernandez will start at first three days in a row and Craig Wilson will DH. I just threw up in my mouth after I typed that sentence.

2006-05-18 13:14:53
82.   Jon Weisman
77 - Hamstring. That's (at least partly) why he got pinch-hit for last night.

Putting everything else about Beltre aside, he's one of those guys who doesn't want to come out of the lineup - for better or worse. I did some reading today and it appears he's had hamstring issues for a couple weeks or so.

2006-05-18 13:16:29
83.   Jacob L
Erickson is a member of the Yankees??? The New York Yankees?!? The ones that just demoted Tanyon Sturtze? I'm looking through box scores trying to find where he pitched, and its like, KC, no, Pitts, no. Yankees?

Why, in the name of Bubba Crosby, do they think they can pull things off our scrap heap and make something of them?

We talked a lot about the supernatural powers of one Mr Erickson last year, but if he can pull his voodoo on Tanyon Sturtze, he's more powerful than I thought.

He's very nice. The things he does are very good. That Scott.

2006-05-18 13:17:18
84.   Marty
82 Thanks. I feel a little small for making fun of him. I still like him as a player. It's just hard not to point out how badly he's doing after signing with Seattle.
2006-05-18 13:18:40
85.   underdog
The fact that Jose Lima and Scott Erickson are still pitching, are still wanted by anyone, comes close to opening a seam in the space-time continuum, but mostly I'm just glad they're not pitching for the Dodgers.

Meanwhile, I just looked at the SF Chronicle sports section at lunch and noticed they had the Dodgers in last beneath the Giants in the standings (they have all the teams listed by city, except "Giants"- thus do they win the alphabetical order battle). Does the LA Times do the reverse at least? Then we can say homerism is in effect and it's a wash. Not that I care about such things, but just thought it was amusing.

2006-05-18 13:20:16
86.   Bob Timmermann
Re: Erickson. This was posted Sunday.

2006-05-18 13:20:58
87.   Jon Weisman
84 - Beltre's not hitting, there's no getting around it. For me, it's one of my biggest disappointments as a fan. Even though he left the Dodgers, I really wanted him to do well.
2006-05-18 13:21:37
88.   Bob Timmermann
I have the Dodgers listed ahead of the Giants in my standings on the Griddle, but that's usually just a factor of what spot they were in last and trying to minimize keystrokes.
2006-05-18 13:22:44
89.   Bob Timmermann
Yankees outfielder Kevin Reese is depicted in his Gameday photo with a black eye.
2006-05-18 13:23:25
90.   Marty
The Dodgers get the top slot with ties in the L.A. Times standings.
2006-05-18 13:24:27
91.   Marty
So do the Angels.
2006-05-18 13:26:23
92.   underdog
Whew! I can sleep easy at night now. Heh.

It kind of makes me laugh to look at The Pittsburgh Tracys box score and see under pitching "J. Grabow"... just looks like it's missing a -ski.

2006-05-18 13:27:48
93.   Bob Timmermann
But the Angels aren't tied with anybody.
2006-05-18 13:28:02
94.   JoeyP
Maybe Beltre is like Jeff Cirillo. I think Cirillo put up like 1-2 really good years, but in the end was really an inconsequential, highly paid, player.
2006-05-18 13:28:09
95.   Jon Weisman has a story on Grady's role in the making of Bull Durham.
2006-05-18 13:28:56
96.   Marty
93 I meant that if there is a tie, the local teams will be listed first.
2006-05-18 13:29:16
97.   Jon Weisman
68 - Never mind.
2006-05-18 13:29:39
98.   sanchez101
I think its about time people stopped think about Beltre as a phenom or potential star, he's a decent regular with a nice glove. I like Beltre and its a shame that he's becoming Seattle's version of Chan Ho Park.
2006-05-18 13:29:56
99.   Jon Weisman
Nationals in danger of blowing a five-run lead.
2006-05-18 13:30:26
100.   Marty
I think Jon is having fun with this.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-05-18 13:32:28
101.   Marty
Neifi! with a solid .494 OPS and .203 average.
2006-05-18 13:32:50
102.   katysdad
Speaking of Mostly Pointless Comparions:

Dodgers after 14 games: 2005 12-2; 2006 6-8
Dodgers after 41 games: 2005 22-19; 2006 21-20

Is this progress? LA is one game worse this year after 41 games, but five games better when comparing games 15-41. With a win tomorrow, the Dodgers record last year and this will be an identical 22-20 after 42 games.

For what it's worth, game 41 last year was a 9-0 loss to the Angels (W: Washburn; L: Erickson). The Dodgers last time at .500 in 2005 was 33-33. They were in the midst of an eight-game losing streak (Royals, White Sox, Padres) at the time.

What's the over/under on wins this year after 66 games?

2006-05-18 13:33:18
103.   regfairfield
94 Cirillo strung together about five good years from 1996-2001. During that stretch his worst year was .288/.367/.426 and I think he had the second or third most hits in baseball during that run. Then he went to Seattle and hit .249/.301/.328 and it went down hill from there.

Third basemen go to Seattle, and then they suck. It's just a fact of life.

2006-05-18 13:36:10
104.   regfairfield
The last good third baseman Seattle had was Mike Blowers in 1995 (.257/.335/.474).
2006-05-18 13:36:40
105.   natepurcell
Eddie Bane posts on the perfect game message board. I think thats pretty cool. Angels pick 25, Dodgers pick 26. I hope he donest steal one of our players.
2006-05-18 13:37:01
106.   sanchez101
103. no wonder they kept Edgar Martinez in the minors for so long
2006-05-18 13:38:50
107.   katysdad
The same Mike Blowers who blew out a knee while running from third and home while playing for the Dodgers. Other than Ron Cey (and one year of Adrian Beltre), the Dodgers have had little luck at the hot corner as well.
2006-05-18 13:40:45
108.   sanchez101
My guess (prediction?) for the Dodgers on draft day:
#7: Clayton Kershaw
#26: Greg Reynolds
#31: Chris Tillman
2006-05-18 13:42:07
109.   Kayaker7
71 Question. Doesn't an error by the pitcher count towards an earned run, since he earned the error? If he gives up a run via wild pitch, for example, it is earned because it's all on him, though it is kinda like an error.
2006-05-18 13:44:01
110.   Daniel Zappala
99 This is the Cubs they are playing. Not much danger there. See the latest CubTown post on the Toaster.
2006-05-18 13:44:19
111.   Jon Weisman
109 - Errors are errors, regardless of who makes them.

The rationale is basically this: A wild pitch is part of the act of pitching. An error is not.

2006-05-18 13:47:38
112.   Vishal
[111] yeah, but a pitcher who can't field his position is less effective than a pitcher of the same pitching talent who can also field.
2006-05-18 13:49:28
113.   Jon Weisman
112 - That's entirely true, but irrelevant to the concept of earned runs, which is what we're talking about.

You're welcome to argue that ERA is a flawed stat, but it's not because of this. It's because of the whole concept of errors being factored in but obvious non-error misplays not.

2006-05-18 13:50:23
114.   natepurcell

7- kershaw
26- kasey kiker
31- travis snider/chris parmelee

If kershaw gets past the tigers, hes ours. Dodgers area scout has met with kiker numerous times, even taking him to a catfish game on may 15th, the scout has told one of Kasey's coaches they plan on taking him at 26. the only thing that could get in the way of that is the rangers at 12 really like him.

Dodgers also like colton willems, White has seen him live.

2006-05-18 13:51:06
115.   Jon Weisman
A pitcher who can't hit is less effective than a pitcher of the same pitching talent who can also hit. That doesn't mean we should factor pitchers' hitting into ERA.
2006-05-18 13:52:26
116.   Nagman
Can a run change from being unearned to earned in the course of an inning? For example if a runner from third scores on an error (which I assume would make it unearned) but then the next batter homers (so he would've scored anyway to make it earned)?
2006-05-18 13:53:00
117.   Kayaker7
Yeah, I understand...I guess my thinking is, if the pitcher makes the error, then he earned the resulting run. :-)
2006-05-18 13:54:34
118.   Jon Weisman
116 - Yes.
2006-05-18 13:57:49
119.   Humma Kavula
102 For giggles, I'll put the over/under for wins after 66 games at 35. Four games over .500. What can I say -- I'm an optimist.
2006-05-18 13:59:23
120.   thinkblue0

Unless that error occurs with two outs, correct?

2006-05-18 13:59:38
121.   Kayaker7
116 That seems so unjust. It assumes that things would have happened exactly the same way, if the unearned run did not score. But I think something would be different in the universe if that unearned run did not score, to make the homerun ball stay in the ballpark.

Give me a moment to meditate...

2006-05-18 14:01:31
122.   Jon Weisman
121 - Got to draw the line somewhere ...
2006-05-18 14:06:33
123.   Kayaker7
What if the next guy lays down a great bunt? Would the unearned run become earned, as a suicide squeeze? :)

Sorry, I'm getting woozy from too much work...

2006-05-18 14:10:48
124.   Vishal
[115] that's taking a little far. fielding is at least on the same side of the diamond as pitching. it's still run prevention.
2006-05-18 14:13:22
125.   Jon Weisman
124 - I exaggerated to make a point. Run prevention is one thing. ERA attempts to define run prevention independent of fielding. Once the pitcher lets go of the ball, he becomes a fielder like anyone else.
2006-05-18 14:19:58
126.   Jon Weisman
99 - Never mind.
2006-05-18 14:20:50
127.   Jon Weisman
A's in no immediate danger of blowing a five-run lead.
2006-05-18 14:21:34
128.   Vishal
[125] i feel like ERA should attempt to determine the pitcher's contribution to run prevention, and his fielding is a part of that. it's just wrong that, if a pitcher makes an error, he's more or less off the hook for the remainder of the inning, even whatever happens is all his fault.
2006-05-18 14:22:38
129.   Vishal
grr, i keep missing words here and there.
2006-05-18 14:22:45
130.   Sam DC
Actually working today so not yet had time to read comments, but wanted to pass along that, down by 2 with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth, runners at first and third, Neifi! just ended the game against the Nationals trying to sneak a bunt down the third base line. Didn't work.
2006-05-18 14:25:13
131.   Bob Timmermann
Keep in mind that a good fielding pitcher helps his ERA by not allowing hits.

So if you're Matt Young or Tommy John and throw everything away, that's too bad. If you're Greg Maddux, good for you!

2006-05-18 14:26:29
132.   regfairfield
Ronny Cedeno and Todd Walker have just lost their jobs. The Cubs signed Tony Womack to a minor league deal.

2006-05-18 14:28:30
133.   Jon Weisman
128 - And batting average should determine the batter's contribution to run scoring. But it doesn't. Instead, we have other statistics as alternatives. I just don't see the point of redefining what ERA is after 100 years.

Pitcher errors are such a small part of the big picture. Pitchers are on the hook for so many things that aren't their fault - bloopers and grounders that are easy plays but are ruled hits - I just have never understood the campaign to make the kind of adjustment you want.

2006-05-18 14:41:37
134.   Kayaker7
133 I guess the issue is the name of that stat. It is "batting average" not "run scoring average." I guess a lot of people have issues with how "earned run average" is figured, not "pitching average."
2006-05-18 14:42:00
135.   Vishal
[133] oh, i don't think we should redefine it. i think it should have been originally defined that way. now, it is what it is. this whole argument is purely academic. my sense of justice is provoked when a pitcher's blunder doesn't affect his reputation.
2006-05-18 14:42:10
136.   Bob Timmermann
The earned run (as we know it today) did not come into official use until 1912.

It was originally defined as "Earned runs are charged to a pitcher when a player scores by means of safe hits, sacrifice hits, bases on balls, hit batters, wild pitches, and balks."

It wasn't until 1917 that stolen bases were added to the list of things that made runs "earned".

There have been times when pitchers got errors when batters reached on dropped third strikes (or the catcher would get an error if need be, that was the case with Mickey Owen in the 1941 World Series.)

2006-05-18 14:43:05
137.   Bob Timmermann

Do you want to get on board for my campaign to get rid of the double error on one play?

2006-05-18 14:44:29
138.   Jon Weisman
134 - That's simple enough. A run enabled by a pitcher error is not earned.
2006-05-18 14:55:48
139.   Marty
So, any thoughts on whether there will be a Jimmy Hoffa sighting?
2006-05-18 14:58:47
140.   Jon Weisman
I still want to find D.B. Cooper.
2006-05-18 15:13:28
141.   King of the Hobos
Nothing earth-shattering, but John Dewan's Stat of the Week™ focuses on the Dodgers this week

2006-05-18 15:14:22
142.   Bob Timmermann
The White Sox pitching coach's name comes out as D.J. Cooper, but he just goes by Don.

Maybe that's been where he's been hiding out all this time.

2006-05-18 15:14:53
143.   Linkmeister
139-140 Don't forget Judge Crater!
2006-05-18 15:17:51
144.   Jon Weisman
I wasn't familiar with this before today, but I've found a Hank Aaron-Danica McKellar connection:

2006-05-18 15:19:38
145.   Jon Weisman
141 - I've been meaning to write about the Dodger walk totals. I keep forgetting.
2006-05-18 15:27:32
146.   joekings
144 - I've never even heard of an Erdos number. Makes me think I was wise to not have chosen math as my major in college like I intended to.
2006-05-18 15:39:51
147.   Johnson
144 That's strange that you're not familiar with the Erdos-Bacon number - I recall it coming up once before on Dodger Thoughts in regards to Ms. McKellar, though for the life of me I can't find it with the search function. I discovered at that point that I in fact have an Erdos number (but not a Bacon number, and thus an undefined Erdos-Bacon number). Interesting stuff.
2006-05-18 15:47:37
148.   Jon Weisman
147 - I probably saw it, but it probably went right over my head.

If you are willing to count writing credits, my Bacon number is 2.

2006-05-18 16:00:56
149.   underdog
Speaking of hockey (well, someone was earlier), and the Dodgers (?), how about a little Q&A with 51s catcher Eric Langill, the other Canadian catcher:

Where I learned that "cheesecutter" is a term for double bladed ice skates, among other things.

2006-05-18 16:06:04
150.   Bob Timmermann
Is "She's Having a Baby" the key film?
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-05-18 16:16:53
151.   Jon Weisman
150 - You're good.
2006-05-18 16:25:30
152.   Bob Timmermann
I'm an expert on Elizabeth McGovern films.
2006-05-18 16:29:57
153.   Vishal
bob, pardon me if this has been asked before, but have you ever tried out for jeopardy!?
2006-05-18 16:35:58
154.   Bob Timmermann
I only use my powers to benefit others out of the goodness of my heart, not to make money.

I think I would also get killed on Jeopardy!

2006-05-18 16:36:51
155.   D4P
Bob = Ken Jennings, remember?
2006-05-18 16:37:45
156.   Vishal
like baseball though, it's just a game. the money is incidental :)

i bet you'd do pretty well. it's fun just to go down there and take the test.

2006-05-18 16:38:13
157.   Vishal
[155] bob is not NEARLY as smarmy as KJ.
2006-05-18 16:39:53
158.   D4P
Superman was not NEARLY as mild-mannered as CK...
2006-05-18 16:42:07
159.   Vishal
hahah good point.
2006-05-18 16:42:41
160.   Xeifrank
High probability of rain on sunday, so if you are headed to the game in Anaheim plan accordingly. It's always possible the storm won't hit that far south...??
vr, Xei
2006-05-18 16:44:18
161.   Xeifrank
A Dodger off day. Must be movie or tv talk. Only TV I will be watching this evening that doesn't have the words Sesame, Wiggles, Einstein in it will be the Clipper game. :) vr, Xei
2006-05-18 16:44:48
162.   Bob Timmermann
If you go to the game in Anaheim Sunday, you will be very lonely since the game will be played at Chavez Ravine.
2006-05-18 16:45:22
163.   natepurcell
laroche is heating up. 3rd homerun in 4 games. 5 on the season.
2006-05-18 16:46:34
164.   Bob Timmermann
I would have been a lot better on Jeopardy about 10 years ago. I paid attention to more stuff then. Things in different fields.

Now my brain's power is wasted on trying to remember which character is which on "The Sopranos."

2006-05-18 16:51:05
165.   Xeifrank
162. haha! Sorry about that then. Yahoo sports has the game listed as Tomko vs E.Santana which led me to believe the Angels were the home team. Either way, be prepared for some wetness. vr, Xei
2006-05-18 16:57:23
166.   joekings
Anybody seen the article about Shawn Green on Yahoo. This line sticks out.

The Dodgers wanted to unload Green's $16 million salary, but the trade looks like a steal for Arizona.;_ylt=Au1jHlnk0R.qRH4WLl4RbLkRvLYF?slug=ap-diamondbacks-green&prov=ap&type=lgns

2006-05-18 16:58:02
167.   joekings
167- Oops, didn't mean to stretch the page out. Apologies, next time I'll use tinyurl.
2006-05-18 16:58:15
168.   Humma Kavula
I'm going to the game on Sunday. Last I checked, chance of "few showers" was 30%. Has the probability increased?
2006-05-18 16:58:35
169.   Jon Weisman
On, I see 30 percent chance for a few showers Sunday. Doesn't sound too threatening, knock on wood.
2006-05-18 17:04:45
170.   natepurcell
laroche doubles in his 2nd AB. I think he's heating up guys.
2006-05-18 17:06:07
171.   natepurcell
In his last 66ABs, laroche is hitting 303/425/500 14bb 6k

sexy numbers.

2006-05-18 17:07:10
172.   Bob Timmermann
The way the weather was in April for some of the games against Atlanta and San Francisco, I think Sunday will be no problem.

I suppose a rainout would necessitate a make up day-night doubleheader played in two cities a la the Yankees and Mets? Go to Dodger Stadium at noon and then when the game is over, truck on down the Santa Ana Freeway to Anaheim for Game 2.

The only sporting event scheduled for Anaheim Sunday right now is Game 2 of the Ducks-Oilers series at the Arrowhead Pond.

Anaheim has not won a game in Edmonton in seven years.

2006-05-18 17:10:28
173.   Marty
I'm golfing Sunday. It better not rain. Golf is no fun in the rain.
2006-05-18 17:12:41
174.   Bob Timmermann
Some of us think that if you golf in the rain, you have a built in excuse for shooting 130.
2006-05-18 17:15:12
175.   D4P
Rain = An uncrowded course = A good thing
2006-05-18 17:15:35
176.   natepurcell
in the jax boxscore:

Outfield assists: Kemp (Saltalamacchia at 1st base)

1b? interesting.

2006-05-18 17:16:22
177.   Marty
I guess it's because I just don't like being out in the rain.
2006-05-18 17:16:49
178.   Bob Timmermann
Was the guy doubled off on a fly ball?
2006-05-18 17:16:59
179.   Jacob L
Golf in hail. Now that's fun.

Sunday is my daughter's first birthday party. Supposed to be outside. How in the heck can it rain in mid/late May?

2006-05-18 17:17:24
180.   D4P
Why would the rain lower your score...?
2006-05-18 17:17:26
181.   Bob Timmermann
I left a cake out in the rain once.

Didn't bother me much. I had the recipe.

2006-05-18 17:22:04
182.   Bob Timmermann

Sadly, that isn't a joke.

2006-05-18 17:25:56
183.   Vaudeville Villain

How sexy are we talking here?

Olmedo Saenz sexy?

Also, our "city" rivals, the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim from the Greater Southern California area and Hell Let's Say They Represent All of California, were shut out last night. Their offense aside from Vlad is terrible, I'm thinking we should be able to take the series from them. But then again, we have Brett Tomko.

2006-05-18 17:34:52
184.   underdog
My one "worry" about Friday is that Jeff Weaver is majorly due and has some further motivation of course against the Dodgers. On the other hand, he's been genuinely terrible, so it's just as likely that will continue and that his suckiness could override his due-ness. (I'm making up words because it's late in the workday and I'm sleepy.)

Anyway, 2 out of 3 would make me happy.

2006-05-18 17:39:43
185.   sanchez101
184. I would say the Dodgers have more motivation to make Weaver pay for his meltdowns in a dodger uniform. Anyway, Weaver can pitch the best game of his season and that wont help the Angels anemic offense.
2006-05-18 17:41:23
186.   Marty
Mickey Hatcher needs to go.
2006-05-18 17:44:22
187.   sanchez101
Saturday's game features Sele facing off against Kevin Gregg. Other than the fact that that pitching matchup signal a 51's-Bee's game, could Sele end up getting away with another credible performance? If he does, is that a good thing?
2006-05-18 17:53:14
188.   King of the Hobos
Orenduff has an interesting game through 5 IP
2006-05-18 18:00:20
189.   natepurcell
suns have 14 hits through 5. the other team has 14 less.
2006-05-18 18:00:40
190.   sanchez101
188. thanks
2006-05-18 18:02:36
191.   thinkblue0

Definitely a good thing. Get what you can out of far we've been lucky and gotten some real good starts. As long as Sele at least keeps us in the game I'm happy.

I can't believe I'm defending Sele.

2006-05-18 18:03:44
192.   sanchez101
Its like LaRoche just woke up a couple weeks ago. To bad Kemp has "only" 2 singles and a walk, and a dp. Im glad he's doing his best Francour impression against the Braves.
2006-05-18 18:03:53
193.   D4P
That brings a question to my mind. From the standpoint of "skill" and "things the pitcher can control," and setting aside rarity of occurrence, which accomplishment should we be most impressed by:

1. Giving up 0 hits in 9 innings
2. Giving up 0 walks in 9 innings

2006-05-18 18:07:04
194.   Prescott Pete
The Suns promotions tonight.

Suns vs. Mississippi Braves
Thursday, May 18, 7:05pm
Thursday Night Throwdown! Enjoy Buds for a buck, compliments of Budweiser and Planet Radio 107.3FM, plus Elvis Himselv is is back for another night!

2006-05-18 18:07:40
195.   King of the Hobos
Orenduff has extended his special game an extra inning.
2006-05-18 18:08:41
196.   natepurcell
how can kemp do a francouer impression when he walked?
2006-05-18 18:09:03
197.   Steve
166 -- See, Andrew? If Shawn Green is a steal, my Hyundai is an armed robbery.
2006-05-18 18:11:05
198.   LAT
166. The article is not very informative. While Green is not pulling the ball as much the real question is not even raised. Where did his power go? Is it the shoulder? Is it a choice to hit for average? Is it age? How can you write an article about the guy, point out he hit 49 HRs a few seasons ago and not mention he only has 3 HRs this season without addressing why?.

In any event, it made someone I know very happy.

2006-05-18 18:18:46
199.   Steve
Shawn Green wields a nasty mean banjo.
2006-05-18 18:26:25
200.   King of the Hobos
Nothing to see in Jacksonville (Nall replaced Orenduff before the hit occurred)
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-05-18 18:36:23
201.   natepurcell
wow, laroche is 4-4 and kemp is 2-3 with 2bbs.
2006-05-18 18:44:22
202.   Andrew Shimmin
If Shawn Green is a steal, [Steve Finley] is an armed robbery. Is it too much to hope that the Giants will sign him for three years/$30 million? Because that would be awesome.
2006-05-18 18:46:34
203.   sanchez101
LaRoche's batting average has jumped 20 points this game, nice.
2006-05-18 19:35:17
204.   Steve
So tonight answers the immortal question: "Can America withstand two straight hours of Will & Grace if NBC promises to take it off the air?"

Stand strong, America. Just make it through tonight.

2006-05-18 19:48:41
205.   D4P
Too bad "Will and Grace" couldn't have been the Jesus to Arrested Development's Barrabus.

Also too bad that "Ned and Stacy" turned into "Will and Grace."

2006-05-18 19:56:31
206.   natepurcell
i was a fan of ned and stacey.
2006-05-18 19:58:47
207.   Steve
Message to future Challengers of Roy Halladay: To beat Roy Halladay, you have to get big hits. Please forward royalty checks to Mr. Rex Hudler.
2006-05-18 19:59:49
208.   Steve
Nor was that a good hard slide. That was Cabrera screwing up and thinking he had the throw beat and getting lucky he didn't separate a kneecap.
2006-05-18 20:21:38
209.   Andrew Shimmin
Somebody should have tried to get Bob to live-blog the Will and Grace extravaganza. With the way he caved on the Bonds show, he'd probably have done it.
2006-05-18 20:40:37
210.   twerp
No comment, just link to maybe a more meaningful comparison...good story and stat analysis ruth vs. bonds===

Hope it works. Article really good IMO.

2006-05-18 20:59:03
211.   Bob Timmermann
The Bonds show was 30 minutes.

Will and Grace is 120 minutes. That's 119 minutes than I can take.

2006-05-18 21:14:14
212.   Bob Timmermann
Lawler's Law!

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