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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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Wishing Well
2006-07-10 09:01
by Jon Weisman

If you could change one thing in Dodger history, from the pitch to Bobby Thomson, to the trade of Pedro Martinez, to the elimination of the double-bagger peanuts at Dodger Stadium, what would it be?

* * *

Note: This is awkward, but if you are interested in supporting Dodger Thoughts ...

... read comment No. 6 below, where DT reader Sam DC does a incomprehensibly nice thing on the site's behalf. My response to Sam's gesture can be found here.

Comments (415)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-07-10 09:09:05
1.   Inside Baseball
The team would still be owned by the O'Malley family.
2006-07-10 09:09:15
2.   gpellamjr
This will show my youth and lack of perspective, but I would change that last-day-of-the-season-division-clinching win by the Padres over the Dodgers in '96, because it was the most frustrating loss I've experienced. It is also probably the reason Piazza wasn't MVP that year.
2006-07-10 09:13:12
3.   Jon Weisman
I expect Bob's answer to come from no later than 1910.
2006-07-10 09:14:10
4.   Jerry
Brad Penny will start the All-Star game, and Paul Lo Duca will catch him.

Funny how stuff works out sometimes.

2006-07-10 09:16:53
5.   Penarol1916
I couldn't change the Bobby Thomson pitch, because that game is what made my dad a Dodger fan, and thus me, so eliminating that would be like in Back to the Future when Marty pushes his dad out of the way of the car, I would cease to exist as a Dodger fan.
Because of that, I would have to say, I would eliminate the Fox ownership, I don't necessarily want the O-Malley's back in charge, but I just wish the club had gone to someone interested in baseball.
2006-07-10 09:20:02
6.   Sam DC
(reposted from the thred below)

Unofficial All-Star Break Fundraiser

Well, with the Dodgers playoff-qualified at the break, this seems like as good a time as any.

Once or twice a season, I've made a small contribution to Jon and the site. I've got two basic reasons. First, I just really enjoy Jon's writing, the site he has built, and the community that has grown up around it, and so it seems appropriate to contribute what I can to keeping it all running. Given the junk I pay for in my life, throwing a bit of cash to Dodger Thoughts is a downright pleasure. Second, I feel a bit of a "put your money where your mouth is" pressure -- it's easy to write in comments that I value the site and Jon's work; it's something else altogther to actually pay a bit back for it, and I think Jon really appreciates the gesture of support (as well as the support itself!).

Anyhow, this time around, instead of just making a contribution myself, I thought I'd make an effort to leverage our numbers a little bit. So, rather than straight up send Jon a paypal, what I'd thought I'd do is match contributions made by others (within reason and within my means) and also take a little time to pester and harangue you lot. Here's the idea:

I will match the first $10 of contributions made to Dodger Thoughts this next week. Now, some of you can probably afford more and I'd encourage you to contribute more -- but I'll match the first $10. Ideally, we'd get 25 folks or so to contribute $10 each, I'd match, and Jon can take his lovely wife for an overnight at Shutters or something (or you know, pay his baseball prospectus and like subscriptions). Since I'm a mere mortal, I can't match more than 25, but that's not to say more folks shouldn't greenback up.

This note is too long already, and I'm not going to hector/cajole much more than this (some reminders will issue over the week, of course). There's alot of junk in the world you pay $10 for; please consider spending $10 (or more) on something you value and enjoy. Jon puts in a heck of a lot of time, not just writing the site, but managing the community, setting the tone, and keeping this a smart, fun place for folks to hang out, talk, and learn.

Important Final Point: This is a free website that Jon publishes and others participate in just because they want to and certainly not for the money. For many readers, of course, money is tight and making a contribution right now won't be an option. Others may feel that their discretionary funds are better spent on things other than a baseball blog. Totally reasonable. And others write their own blogs for heaven's sake and deserve fundraisers of their own. True true. By asking folks who can comfortably afford it to join me in making what is essentially a gesture towards our host, I certainly realize that many readers/members of the community will have good reasons for not doing so. Obviously, no worries. Jon would be pissed as all heck at me if this little gimmick (which I didn't ask him about and which he is probably quite ambivalent over) made anyone feel uncomfortable or unwelcome or anything else.

That said, the many of you who can make a very small donation, that will be doubled (in part) by me, really should do so.

Logistics: You can contribute via the PayPal button at right. I'll ask Jon to let me know how many donations he receives so I can match. Maybe he can shoot me an update now or then so I can support my hectoring with some cold hard facts. If you don't like PayPal and want to send me a check that I translate into paypal, shoot me an email at sam.brodsok AT comcast DOT net.

NOTE Jon has some comments on this subject -- and the first donors weigh in! -- at the end of the Izturis no-trade thread below.

2006-07-10 09:24:27
7.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers shouldn't have replaced Bill McGunnigle as manager in 1891 with John Ward!
2006-07-10 09:29:13
8.   Sam DC
For my own selfish fan purposes, they should have hired Kim Ng as GM intead of Ned Colletti. At a time when I am following the Dodgers as or more closely than I ever had before, that would have been very exciting to see unfold, and would have continued one of the proudest traditions of the team.

Also, did they get rid of Spicy Dogs or is that just a rumor that circulated to torment us out-of-towners? If that happened, I'd put rectifying it high on the list.

2006-07-10 09:30:41
9.   regfairfield
Kevin Malone buried this team from the day he arrived until last year. That's pretty impressive for a guy who was around less than three years.
2006-07-10 09:31:24
10.   regfairfield
8 They've gotten rid of Spicy dogs multiple times in the past. I don't know if they're back this year.
2006-07-10 09:33:55
11.   dzzrtRatt
Dr. Frank Jobe would have been transported back in time to the mid-1960s so he could save Sandy Koufax's elbow, allowing the greatest pitcher in baseball history a chance to dominate for another five or six seasons.
2006-07-10 09:35:06
12.   NPB
Retract the firing of Ross Porter.
2006-07-10 09:35:08
13.   Bluebleeder87
the lose of Pedro was pretty bad, not signing Piazza this year was kind of bad, but Martin is playing now, so it makes it easier.
2006-07-10 09:35:45
14.   LAT
I am going to post this here because I assume Sam's generous offer will carry over to this thread. Embarrassingly, it has been a while since I contributed and am making up for that today. In addition to everything Sam said, for me DT has replaced the LA Times, so I think of my contribution, not as a contribution, but as a subscription. A subscription that buys me at least two very important things: (1) clever and original top shelf Dodger/baseball analysis and (2) keeps me from having to read the LA Times. Heck, I even get better movie and TV reviews here.

Thanks for all of it Jon.

2006-07-10 09:36:52
15.   Jon Weisman
8/10 - There's some confusion. At one point in the past, the current all-beef dog, I believe, was called the spicy dog. Now, I think at least at some food stands, they have a picante dog in addition to the Dodger dog and all-beef dog.

Do they still have sausages, by the way? I haven't noticed them this year.

2006-07-10 09:42:40
16.   Sam DC
Hey Jon, can I be so pushy as to ask you to put a note on the front page saying that a reader is trying to raise some funds for DT and folks interested should click through and look at comment #6.

Would like to reach folks who don't normally look at the comments.

If you don't want to, of course, it's your house.

2006-07-10 09:46:47
17.   Bob Timmermann
Operators are standing by...
2006-07-10 09:47:15
18.   JJoeScott
I would change the moment when Steve Howe met cocaine.
2006-07-10 09:47:46
19.   Robert Daeley
Off topic, but I would just like to protest the insertion -- thanks to the title of this post -- of the Terence Trent D'Arby song of the same name into my brain on infinite repeat.
2006-07-10 09:49:51
20.   Xeifrank
I probably wouldn't change anything. Well, maybe one thing. More publicity for Dodger Thoughts and an all-star break dedicated to movie and tv chat. vr, Xei
2006-07-10 09:50:47
21.   pancho
The Ravine just isn't the same without the...Cool-a-coo.
2006-07-10 09:52:22
22.   Eric Enders
Protect Roberto Clemente.
2006-07-10 09:56:11
23.   Bob Timmermann
As for 20th century changes:
1) Anyone but Ralph Branca
2) Anyone but Stan Williams
3) Anyone but Tom Niedenfuer
4) Don't sign Darryl Strawberry
5) Don't sign Darryl Strawberry
6) Don't sign Darryl Strawberry
7) Don't sign Darryl Strawberry
8) Don't sign Darryl Strawberry
9) Don't sign Darryl Strawberry
10) Don't sign Darryl Strawberry
2006-07-10 09:57:08
24.   still bevens
I think they sell sausages in certain spots. I think there's a stand in the right field section of the reserve level. The one right by the 'Beers of the World' stand.
2006-07-10 09:59:01
25.   Sam DC
19 That's Sananda Maitreya now, thank you very much. And if it's any consolation, you've now condemned me to an afternoon inifinite loop of Sign Your Name (Across My Heart).
2006-07-10 10:03:07
26.   Terry A
To appreciate this, you'd have to know how engulfed I am in a sea of Cardinal fandom, but I would undo the 1985 playoffs.

Tom Niedenfuer, meet Clarence Oddbody, AS2.

2006-07-10 10:05:12
27.   Peanuts in My Shoes
6. Can't wait until the wife sees the PayPal payment to "ShiftyJ" hit the account. Explaining it away is a very small price to pay for the quality of this site, Jon. Thanks to you and all the other posters for all the great insight.

(And, Sam, thanks for the reminder.)

2006-07-10 10:06:49
28.   bluetahoe
The Dodgers trading for Eddie Murray was something I HATED as a youngin.

In 1988 the Dodgers won the World Series. Eddie Murray and the Orioles satrted off 0-24(?) and finished GOD knows how bad in 1988.

In 1989 Eddie Murray and the Los Angeles Dodgers went from WS champs to sub .500. Meanwhile, the Murrayless Orioles went on to have maybe the greatest single season turn around in the history of the game only to lose out on the division title the last weekend of the season.

For some reason I blamed Murray. I think it was because I LOVED the Hatcher/Stubbs combo at 1b and I liked Holton too.

2006-07-10 10:09:04
29.   Blu2
Post Number 1 is the ONLY acceptable answer to this question.
2006-07-10 10:19:06
30.   bobbygrich
1. Posted by bobbygrich
1. Campy's drive home in 1957.
Everything else pales in comparison.
2. Dave Goltz vs. Fernando (1980)
3. Pedro Guerrero playing in that spring training game in 1986.
4. Reggie Jackson's "hip" move in 1978 Series.
5. John Franco for Rafael Landestoy.
2006-07-10 10:20:48
31.   Eric L
29 I don't know if having the O'Malley's around would have made the team any better. The decline of the farm system amongst other things started on their watch.

I'll go with a previous poster and say anyone but Fox.

2006-07-10 10:20:49
32.   Purple Hippopotamus
23 - My dad took me to a Strawberry autograph session in the early '90s. Needless to say, my dad soured on baseball after that interaction.
2006-07-10 10:21:59
33.   Bob Timmermann
Fernando was NOT an option to start in the 1980 playoff. He had pitched in relief the day before.

Lasorda had ZERO good options to start. He had to hope that Goltz would just not stink too much and Niekro would have an off day. Neither came to pass.

2006-07-10 10:22:22
34.   Bluebleeder87

yeah that happened to me too, I remember that song very well, I was still a little midget when I first heard that song, but I remember going to my brother in laws sunday league game & hearing that song for the 1st time.

2006-07-10 10:25:34
35.   Bluebleeder87
I'm watching the HR derby from fenway on ESPNCLASSIC & IMO you can't really appreciate Mark McGuires HR's from that stadium.
2006-07-10 10:25:54
36.   Jon Weisman
30 - As I commented on 6-4-2 last month.

It's a myth that Fernando was available to start. Putting aside the fact that he had never started a game in the majors to that point, he had pitched two innings the day before (Sunday) and two innings two days before that (Friday).

Had Lasorda sent him out there to start, we might never have seen Fernandomania at all. Just an earlier arm injury.

Don Sutton, by the way, got the save the day before. Basically, the Dodgers were just out of pitchers.

2006-07-10 10:25:56
37.   bobbygrich
29 Everyone does realize that under the O'Malley family, the scouting and player development fell off greatly and we are still paying for that. I think the problem wasn't that the O'Malley family had to sell the team, it was how Fox operated the franchise.

My disappointment was that there was no local owner that was able to step up and purchase the team in 1998. It was probably thought that only a corporate entitiy could afford such a huge purchase but unfortunately for the Dodgers, there were no Mark Cubans out there.

I believe the McCourts have made some mistakes but this year have basically stayed in the background and allowed Grady and Ned to be in the spotlight.

In the end, I do think individual ownership is better for a sports franchise because it promotes accountability, now maybe they won't accept it but it puts a face on it unlike the Cubs who are owned by the Tribune Corporation or the Braves that are owned by Time Warner.

2006-07-10 10:27:00
38.   bobbygrich
36 I stand corrected. But I hope no one disagrees with my number one thing I would change.
2006-07-10 10:27:21
39.   Blu2
Just spent some of your money, Sam.
2006-07-10 10:29:21
40.   bobbygrich
Bud Selig just said on the Dan Patrick show, "Let's look at the Pirates in a couple of years."

I'm wondering if Jim Tracy will get that view from a porch in Ohio or in the PNC dugout.

2006-07-10 10:30:09
41.   blue22
I'd say the Fox ownership is a pretty good call, however the Pedro trade (had it never happened) would've softened a lot of Fox's impact. I, too, am of the mindset that keeping the O'Malley's around wouldn't have necessarily changed history's course for the better. It's a bit before my time, but I've read that the game had started to pass the O'Malley's by. And who knows what kind of damage Fred Claire and Tommy Lasorda would've continued to have done.

Therefore, I'll go with the Pedro trade. It's not often that you trade the best pitcher in several generations before he's even given a chance to make an impact (although look out for Sabean/Liriano in 10 years). Building a team around Piazza and Pedro during the 90s would've produced more than 2 very innocuous playoff appearances.

2006-07-10 10:30:55
42.   Penarol1916
38. Your number one thing, you mean the posted by bobbygrich? Come on, you're not that bad a poster.
2006-07-10 10:32:51
43.   Sam DC
39 Go ahead, make my day!

I've heard from a couple of folks via email too; including one person who's having PayPal trouble and is going to send me a check that I will paypal in. So others can feel free to go that route too if PayPal is acting up.

2006-07-10 10:34:15
44.   bobbygrich
42 Sorry, sometimes when I accept a correction I hurry up with a response. Yes, I mean my number one wish that I could change would have been for Roy Campanella to play in LA.

Thanks for the comment and for the kind words.

2006-07-10 10:35:55
45.   Jon Weisman
38 - No arguments there whatsoever.
2006-07-10 10:36:08
46.   D4P
If you could change one thing in Dodger history

Signing Jeff Kent.

2006-07-10 10:36:19
47.   rageon
I was going to agree with #1 and go with the O'Malley's but after thinking about it, I'm going with the firing of DePodesta. It wasn't the worst move ever, and it still left LA in good shape, and Coletti was a decent choice to replace him. But for my own personal reasons, I'm going with that move, because it the move that finally pushed the Dodgers to #2 on my list of teams. I'd been fighting the urge to become an A's fan for years, but the fact I grew up a Dodger fan proved too strong. The hiring of DePo put them back in the running, but once he was gone, I just couldn't do it anymore.
2006-07-10 10:37:01
48.   Humma Kavula
Add another $10 to the support fund.

This site is an important part of my procrastination.

2006-07-10 10:38:37
49.   coachbean
1) Pedro Trade
2) Piazza Trade
3) Firing Ross Porter
4) Firing Depodesta
5) Hirin Jim Tracy
6) Signing Darryl Strawberry
7) Hiring Davey Johnson

8) Al Campanis appearance on nightline

The last one had many repurcussions... Fred Claire... who had a great start and terrible finish, also it set back the Dodger reputation and farm system, and tarnished the legacy of Campanis who by all accounts was the exact opposite of everything thayt came out of his mouth that night.

2006-07-10 10:41:29
50.   D4P
My $10 are on their way. I already own the Arrested Development DVDs, and we've got plenty of tote bags. Can I get a DT coffee mug?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-07-10 10:42:09
51.   bobbygrich
Just because I would like to see this discussion continued, I will repost from late last night an edited version of some thoughts regarding the Dodger's prospects at the midway point of the season. Sorry for the long post.

John Sickels is going to put out his review of his top 20 Dodger prospects on Thursday, I would like to preempt that by doing are own DT review of Dodger prospects.

Here was his original rankings in February 2006

1. Chad Billingsley, RHP, Grade A-
2. Joel Guzman, SS-3B-OF, Grade A-
3. Andy LaRoche, 3B, Grade B+
4. Jonathan Broxton, RHP, B+
5. Russell Martin, C, B+
6. Scott Elbert, LHP, B+
7. Blake DeWitt, 3B, B+
8. Chin-Lung Hu, SS, B
9. Andre Ethier, OF, B
10. Justin Orenduff, RHP, B
11. Etanislao Abreu, 2B, B-
12. Delwyn Young, 2B, B-
13. Travis Denker, 2B, B-
14. Matt Kemp, OF, B-
15. Blake Johnson, RHP, B-
16. Hong Chi Kuo, LHP, B-
17. James Loney, 1B, C+
18. Justin Ruggiano, OF, C+
19. Anthony Raglani, OF, C+
20. Josh Wall, RHP, C+
(These rankings are available for free on his site,

It's possible that at the end of the year, Kenshaw, Morris, Mattingly and Steven Johnson could find themselves on this list as Ethier, Martin, Broxton, Billingsley and maybe Kemp will all have played too many games to qualify as "prospects."

My review is that Billingsley could probably use more time in AAA to work on his control and pitching efficiency but otherwise his promotion was maybe a month or two early.

Broxton, Martin, Ethier are probably here to stay, Kemp could use some AAA time to work on his pitch selection but maybe having the attention of Manny Mota and Eddie Murray will do the trick.

Those 5 players have surpassed or in the case of Chad, will pass the "Rookie" definition in terms of number of at bats or innings pitched and no longer qualify as prospects under BA or John Sickel ratings.

Great first halves (players still in minors):
1. LaRoche, after a poor April, has really come on to earn his promotion to AAA, some shoulder issues but started playing again and homered after his layoff.
2. Loney, some still point at his lack of home runs but .370-.380 with an OPS hovering near .900 and still being identified as the best fielding 1B in the minors, and he is still only 22.
3. Scott Elbert, record aside, he began to really dominate at Vero Beach, made his first start in AA, walks a little high but dominated (9 Ks, only 1 hit (HR) in 5 IP)

Good first halves:
1. Chin-Lung Hu, never a big time hitter, still holding his own in AA, 2006 Futures Game selection and Southern League All-Star.
2. Tony Abreu, joining his teammate as a Southern League All-Star, again not big numbers but still progressing.
3. Blake Johnson, not eye-popping but he has about a 4-1 KK/BB ratio but he will probably spend all of 2006 in Vero Beach so his development is definitely on the slow track.
Disappointing first halves in the minors.
1. Joel Guzman, Future Game selection aside and I will discount his time in LA because of all the prospects, his time was the most inconsistent, but anyway he has not done anything in AAA to merit his press clippings. Now, there are a lot of top prospects who have had disappointing first halves, Marte, Daric Barton, B.J. Upton, to name a few and Guzman is still on the younger side so this is not a disaster but he will have to pick it up to avoid the "Dodger Hype" tag.

2. Blake DeWitt, disappointing only because he has been inconsistent, striking out too much but has started to pick it up and he has the second half to recover.

3. Travis Denker, started in VB, was sent back to Columbus.

Incomplete due to injuries:
1. Justin Orenduff

My current top ten:

1. LaRoche
2. Elbert
3. Loney
4. Guzman
5. Hu
6. Abreu
7. Aybar
8. Miller
9. Kuo
10. DeWitt

Like I said above, Steven Johnson, Kenshaw, Morris, and Mattingly may find themselves on this list by year's end.

2006-07-10 10:42:13
52.   blue22
49 - 8) Al Campanis appearance on nightline

Good one. I was never a fan of Fred Claire (Gibby notwithstanding), and it seems we've been trying to replace him as GM for 20 years now.

2006-07-10 10:42:32
53.   rubdawg
1985- Jack Clark
2006-07-10 10:43:10
54.   Bob Timmermann
The rest of your list makes sense. I think that in 1981, Dodger fans looked back in hindsight to 1980 wondering what could have been changed.

The Dodger position players at the end of the year were riddled with injuries. Cey hurt himself in Game 162, didn't play in the playoff. Mickey Hatcher started at third base. Derrel Thomas was playing shortstop. Jay Johnstone was starting in rightfield. Monday started in center although Rudy Law had started most of the season.

Game 162 of the 1980 was the last of Sutton's five career saves.

The only other pitcher who could have started was Rick Sutcliffe and he was buried in Lasorda's doghouse and hadn't started since August. However, Sutcliffe deserved to be in the doghouse since he was pretty bad in 1980.

2006-07-10 10:48:12
55.   popup
Lots of possibilities. I was thinking 1962, though in a way the collapse in 1962 actually deepened my loyalty to the Dodgers. It also made 1963 and the World Series sweep of the Yankees even sweeter.

Leaving aside the macro changes for the worst,the Foxes and the McCourts, I would go back to 1966 World Series. If I am writing the Hollywood script, Koufax for the second year in a row on two days rest pitches a complete game shutout in game seven to bring the championship to the Dodgers. After the game, a weary Sandy tells Vin that he feels like he is 202 years old.

Stan from Tacoma

2006-07-10 10:49:29
56.   Bluebleeder87

I'll just put it this way, I wish I could contribute but "I'm in between jobs" at the moment. :o)

2006-07-10 10:50:10
57.   bigcpa
I would grant the 63-99 Dodgers of 1992 the first pick in the 1993 draft they so richly deserved. We did have the worst record in the majors, thank you. Almost no question this results in deep playoff runs in 1996 and 1997 (they finished those years 1 and 2 gms out). Maybe the O'Malleys don't sour on family ownership. Maybe Piazza stays. Plus we save the $60M on Dreifort. The inane #1 pick flip flop between leagues each year set us back 10 years! Unless of course in my alternate history Fred Claire passed on AROD over "signability issues."
2006-07-10 10:53:21
58.   bhsportsguy
6 As one of my favorite columnists, Norman Chad would say, pay the man, Sam (for Shirley).
2006-07-10 10:54:56
59.   Penarol1916
44. Oh don't apologize, I was just busting your chops a little.
2006-07-10 10:57:16
60.   DXMachina
49 - I'm with you on the Campanis thing, but more for what it did to him personally, because I don't believe he was what the media made him out to be. As far as preventing Claire from getting the job goes, Campanis was nearing the end of his career, and my feeling is that Claire probably would've eventually gotten the job anyway.

I might wish that Koufax never got arthritis.

2006-07-10 11:04:21
61.   bobbygrich
54 Even though 1980 was a disappointment, 1981 with Fernandomania, the comebacks against Houston, Montreal and the Yankees, was a fitting conclusion for the team of my youth.

BTW, hard to believe but a game here or there, Lasorda could have had 4 straight division winners and 7 divisions in 9 years, so perhaps in spite of some who think his HOF regognition was because of his public persona, he may have been on of the top managers in the past 30 years.

2006-07-10 11:09:28
62.   Sushirabbit
6,43 Cha-Ching!

I'd un-do the Piazza trade.

2006-07-10 11:10:38
63.   dan reines
1985- Jack Clark

I'd agree with that. For that matter, how about 2003- Jack Clark?

2006-07-10 11:14:34
64.   bobbygrich
Kevin Goldstein in BP had some nice things to say about Scott Elbert (watch out for guys under 21 who can dominate in AA) and Preston Mattingly (more and more important scouts were attending his games and initially they thought he could be a 4th-6th round pick, at some point they began to look at their supplemental picks), some may frown that his size may eventually force a position move but the one thing that scouts like about him is that he can hit.
2006-07-10 11:18:48
65.   Johnson
43 The PayPal trouble has been resolved! Hopefully I was one of the lucky 25 who get to spend some of Sam's money!
2006-07-10 11:19:23
66.   Jacob L
I really can't argue with any, or at least many of the selections. All of those things stunk, and it just makes me realize, reading this thread, how much disappointment has figured into being a Dodger fan.

I think the degradation of the franchise post O'Malley has little to do with the on-field stuff. In retrospect, I completely agree with the notion that the decline was well under way when the team was sold. The real issue was with the Dodgers as a local institution, and in the unique relationship the club had with the fans. The reluctance to raise ticket prices. The traditional, and truly family friendly atmosphere in the park. The continuity and loyalty with employees. Basically, everything that set the Dodgers apart (lets call it "class") is gone, and not coming back. We've discussed this dozens of times, and I respect that this stuff just doesn't matter to a lot of people, but to me it does.

All that said, the most visceral, painful baseball thing, that has stuck with me the most, was Reggie's 4 straight homers in 77. I don't remember, at all, the game situations, but did we really have to pitch to him any of those times?

2006-07-10 11:21:22
67.   s choir
The one thing I'd change? I'd have drafted Albert Pujols. I covet him, and he will probably never leave STL.
2006-07-10 11:25:11
68.   Bob Timmermann
One of Reggie's homers came at the end of Game 5 which the Dodgers won handily.

The next one was in the fourth inning of Game 6. Munson on first and nobody out and the Dodgers ahead 3-2. By the time the inning ended, the Yankees led 5-3.

Then in the fifth, there was a runner on first and two outs, and Jackson homered. 7-3 Yankees.

The last homer was leading off in the eighth.

2006-07-10 11:25:16
69.   Inside Baseball
Imagine a world where Peter O'Malley still owns the Dodgers:

1. Mike Piazza is never traded.
2. Ross Porter is never fired.
3. Kevin Malone is never hired.
4. Jim Tracy is never hired.
5. Vladimir Guerrero is a Dodger.
6. Mike Scioscia and Orel Hershiser are employed by the Dodgers.
7. Outfield walls are a solid blue and warning track has always been dirt.
8. Dodgers spring training home is never threatened to be moved from Vero Beach.
9. The original version of "It's a Beautiful Day for a Ballgame" still plays before all radio broadcasts.
10. Dodgers are never for a moment considered to be a national laughingstock.

2006-07-10 11:25:17
70.   Eric L
This is slightly off-topic..

Did anyone see that Brad Penny is going to start the AS game? I saw it on the crawl on ESPNews.

2006-07-10 11:30:11
71.   D4P
If someone has the time and the inclination, altering the lyrics to John Lennon's "Imagine" to make them Dodger-centric might garner a few chuckles. I'm not up to the task.
2006-07-10 11:31:39
72.   Sushirabbit
66 you're not the only one to whom it matters
2006-07-10 11:33:08
73.   Bluebleeder87

I saw it on MLB.COM I like our chanches, but who pitches after Penny?

2006-07-10 11:33:33
74.   LAT
36. Don Sutton, by the way, got the save the day before. Basically, the Dodgers were just out of pitchers.

Funny how everything old is new again.

2006-07-10 11:34:33
75.   still bevens
69 That cover version of "Its a Beautiful Day for a Ball Game" that plays before the post game show is the most god awful thing I have ever heard in my life.
2006-07-10 11:35:07
76.   bluetahoe
My top ten worst Dodger transactions

1) Pedro for Delino.
2) Signing Darryl Strawberry.
3) Letting Dan Evans go.
4) Darren Dreifort deal.
5) The Hee Seop Choi fiasco.
6) Tim Belcher - Eric Davis deal.
7)the Grabowski's/Valentins/Edwards/Naki's/Erickson's/Houlton's/et all 2005.
8)Piazza trade
9)Brown signing
10) Trading Dave Roberts for garbage.

2006-07-10 11:35:17
77.   Johnson
69 I approve heartily of #9. And to my astonishment, this web page claims the song was written by Jon himself!

Who knew?!?

2006-07-10 11:40:43
78.   Eric L
76 You know, the Dodgers did get Brad Penny in the whole Hee Seop Choi fiasco.

People do seem to forget that Penny was the centerpiece of "the trade".

2006-07-10 11:42:11
79.   Inside Baseball
77 LOL
2006-07-10 11:43:06
80.   Bob Timmermann
Sheesh, and I was the one who typed out the lyrics to send them to Jon.

Here is a link to the full song:

2006-07-10 11:45:25
81.   Jon Weisman
77 - If the Internet says it, it must be true!
2006-07-10 11:46:05
82.   bluetahoe
Eric, we should have just let them keep Choi. The trade as a whole wasn't a fiasco, its actually benefitting THIS season. Getting Choi was the fiasco.
2006-07-10 11:46:09
83.   Bluebleeder87

dude I swear I just got chills, is this true or not!!? & how old was Jon when he wrote it?

2006-07-10 11:47:02
84.   Kris F
How about Tommy Davis' ill-fated slide into 2nd base? I remember seeing that as a kid. Tommy had Hall Of Fame potential, and never was the same after..........
2006-07-10 11:48:43
85.   Johnson
78 I think the problem was that Penny only made two starts before going down for the season, so between Choi's struggles and Encarnacion (well, I don't remember him being great), there wasn't the appearance of a lot of return. Mota had been considered basically the best set-up man in the league, and we all know about LoDuca - didn't he hit a home run in his first Marlins AB? But, yes people do seem to forget. It's not like we were throwing players away.
2006-07-10 11:49:03
86.   D4P
How does "The Hee Seop Choi fiasco" make the list over the Carter, Baez, and Hamulack fiascos, among others?
2006-07-10 11:49:03
87.   Andrew Shimmin
I wish the Dodgers had never signed Jose Offerman. It may seem like a small thing, but no baseball player has caused me more frustration and misery than Offerman did.
2006-07-10 11:49:51
88.   blue22
85 - Encarnacion (and his prolific ability to make outs) went to Fla, another very important aspect to the trade.
2006-07-10 11:49:58
89.   Sam DC
77 Now if that doesn't call for a click of the PayPal link, what does?
2006-07-10 11:50:00
90.   Jon Weisman
83 - I was negative-15 years old or so. (It's not really true.)
2006-07-10 11:51:16
91.   Bob Timmermann
I believe Jon would have been in negative numbers when that song was written. I'm pretty sure it was written in the early 1960s.

I believe it was written by Harry Simeone. It's performed by the Harry Simeone Singers, who were the popular music arm of the Harry Simeone Chorus, which had the big hit of "The Little Drummer Boy."

2006-07-10 11:53:51
92.   Jon Weisman
91 - Actually, I co-wrote that too.

Bum bum bum bumm. That was me.

2006-07-10 11:54:27
93.   blue22
I google'd (using one of the English language's newest verbs!) the song title and Jon's All-Baseball link (80) came up as one of the returns.

If you're lazy and/or in a rush, as the author of the link in 77 may have been, Jon could appear to be the author.

2006-07-10 11:54:33
94.   bluetahoe
D4P, Carter and Hammy were throw ins. There was no expectations there, unlike Choi. If you remeber Choi came to us to bolster our offense from the left side late in '04. He CHOKED a nasty steakburger.

Baez has been a disappointment, but not as bad as what I've read on here. He's actually 5-4 with a 4.00 ERA, far from TERRIBLE, though the BS's are TERRIBLE. I think were fortunate to have Baez in the pen as we head for the 2nd half. With Gagne and Braz out what other options are there? Keep in mind old friend Gio Carrara is going to be a mainstay in the pen down the stretch drive and he was SPECTACULAR in his last 2 pressure filled assignments.

2006-07-10 11:55:25
95.   Johnson
The funny thing about that song is that I simply cannot remember the correct lyrics at the beginning. No matter how certainly I know that the lyrics are "It's a beautiful day for a ballgame/for a ballgame today" I always want to sing it "It's a beautiful day for a ballgame/a beautiful day for a crowd" (with some slight changes to the melody where I've got the words wrong) and I don't know why.
2006-07-10 11:55:30
96.   blue22
94 - No, Choi was a "strategic throwin" in the Mota/Loduca for Penny trade.
2006-07-10 11:55:54
97.   bluetahoe
blu2, true Juan E struggled in 04. But he was hurt. He would have been a valued player on our '05 squad however. Not that I miss him or anything.
2006-07-10 11:56:26
98.   Bob Timmermann
"The Little Drummer Boy" was released in 1958.

The Rankin-Bass animated version came out in 1968.

There no such thing as a holiday without Rankin-Bass making some sort of bizarre animated feature.

2006-07-10 11:58:29
99.   Sam DC
I can't wait to see the Rankin-Bass feature for next year's Hee-Seop Choi Day.
2006-07-10 11:58:35
100.   Johnson
85 Riiiight. We had signed Encarnacion away from Florida in the offseason and then sent him back in the trade. I knew he was involved but got it backwards. I guess that's evidence of how much emotional investment I had in Encarnacion.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-07-10 11:58:48
101.   Eric L
Just cause I feel bad...

Jon, I'm sorry I started the Choi thing again. I wasn't even trying to say anything about Choi, but more about the trade.

2006-07-10 11:59:23
102.   bluetahoe
disagreed blu2. Choi came with expectations. He was to be our starting 1b in '04. He struggled and Werth emerged moving Greenie back to 1st. I like all Dodger nations was excited to see what Choio would do for the blue. But me, like most all of Dodger nation I'm sure, were thinking what the h-e-double hockey sticks is this after watching him bat for a week.
2006-07-10 12:02:39
103.   bobbygrich
76 People responsible for those transactions.
1. Fred Claire
2. Fred Claire
3. Frank McCourt
4. Kevin Malone
5. Paul Depodesta, Ned Colleti
6. Fred Claire
7. Paul Depodesta
8. Fred Claire (really, it was the Fox executives)
9. Kevin Malone
10. Paul Depodesta

I do think that Dan Evans and to some degree, Paul Depodesta, were operating in a time when the emphasis was cutting the budget from well over $100MM to the $85-95 MM that they operated at last year.

Unfortunately for both of them, they were not able to show what they could do with a productive farm system and a budget that could afford to make a few mistakes.

I think you could take 10 Kevin Malone transactions and put them on that list, though the Shawn Green and Kevin Brown moves were not bad unfortunately the market then was for long term deals that really set franchises back.

Some other smaller deals that go unnoticed.

1. Extending Eric Karros in 2000, it was done as some sort of payback for his years of service. Not horrible but a reflection of the open pocketbook that Malone had back then.
2. Signing Andy Ashby in 2000.

But most of all, the total decline in the player development from 1990 to 2002, which was why they had to go out and acquire talent which was one of the reasons the O'Malleys had to sell because they could not afford a payroll that could do that.

Interestingly, if the Dodgers were able to do what they are doing now, the O'Malleys may have been able to hold on a little longer and the "Fox experience" could have been avoided.

2006-07-10 12:05:32
104.   underdog
Folks here have already nailed some of the ones I wish we could change about Dodger history, so I'll toss in two more that I don't think have yet been mentioned specifically:

1) Bill Bene.
2) Kiki Jones.
3) Dan Opperman.

Basically several straight years of horrible drafting, which took the franchise years to recover from.

Someone above mentioned wishing the Dodgers could have the first pick in the draft from 1993 after their horrible season the year before, but given their record in drafting in that period I don't have much faith they would have done anything other than blow it anyway.


2006-07-10 12:05:39
105.   Bluebleeder87

it brings out the happy in me (memories I guess) hearing Jaime Jarrin really brings the happy in me (My dad loved listing to him) I don't really listen to Jaime Jarrin for some reason though.

2006-07-10 12:06:02
106.   blue22
102 - In '04, post-trade deadline, we had Green at first, and an OF of Werth/Finley/Bradley.

I don't think Choi was brought over to be the primary starter at first down the stretch of a pennant run. The Finley acquisition enabled Green to stay at first.

2006-07-10 12:06:41
107.   underdog
104 I meant three more above, of course. Or basically one more, horrible drafting. I still shudder at the thought of these guys. Not to mention Ryan Luzinski, et al.
2006-07-10 12:07:48
108.   bluetahoe
BOBBYGRICH, I cant see how Ned was partly responsible for the Choi fiasco. Ned was the cure.
2006-07-10 12:08:59
109.   underdog
And just to follow up on my thought above, Dodger Blues had a nice summary of the drafts (which I know has been covered here many times before but since this was my own wish list...)

Compare the 2000s with the decade or so before.

2006-07-10 12:09:59
110.   Bob Timmermann
I don't know if Jaime Jarrin can top the home run call that the ESPN Deportes guy (his name is Ernesto Jerez).

"A lo profundo! No no no no no no no no! Diganle no a ese pelota!"

Just louder.

2006-07-10 12:11:06
111.   bobbygrich
108 Did not know which way you were going (Okay, I could have guessed) but I wanted to be fair and represent both sides, some think that getting nothing for Choi was again a bad use of resources.

Enough about HSC please, let the man do his thing in Pawtucket.

2006-07-10 12:13:34
112.   Robert Daeley
(Not in order.)

1. Not taking Newcombe out sooner on 10/3/51.
2. Maybe #1 wouldn't have happened had Durocher not been fired in 1948.
3. Changing the circumstances of the Battle of Chavez Ravine.
4. Healing Sandy's arm.
5. Healing Fernando's arm.
6. Healing Gagne's arm.
7. Pedro trade.
8. Marty McSorley's illegal stick -- whoops, sorry, that's the Kings. How about getting Vlad?
9. Not trading LoDuca and Beltre.

2006-07-10 12:13:48
113.   bobbygrich
110 Bob, where does yesterday's head butt rank in all-time sports mistakes?
2006-07-10 12:13:57
114.   bluetahoe
what thing is that? LOL...
2006-07-10 12:15:43
115.   thinkingblue
Drew has not had a HR in 98 at bats, and 1 in his last 130. So we're paying 11 million dollars for a doubles hitter that takes days off and only has 50 RBIs hitting the the 4th spot.


2006-07-10 12:16:11
116.   thinkingblue
Oh yeah, I'd take back signing JD Drew.
2006-07-10 12:16:40
117.   Bluebleeder87

Jaime Jarrin rocks, But I'm just use to Vinnie, I've heard the ESPN guy & he's pretty good also.

2006-07-10 12:17:13
118.   Bob Timmermann

I would say it was on a par with Chris Webber and his "Brief History of Timeouts" in the Final Four against North Carolina

Except that the number of people watching is increased by a couple powers of 10.

2006-07-10 12:19:05
119.   Bob Timmermann
When the ESPN Deportes play-by-play guy had to fill in in English last night, he sort of went for a Dan Shulman-like delivery and he was able to flatten out his accent. Candy Maldonado wasn't bad. Carlos Baerga was struggling a bit in English.
2006-07-10 12:20:07
120.   Eric L
116 I think on the long list of dumb moves the Dodgers have made, overpaying for a still productive right fielder is pretty low.

That's just my opinion of course.

2006-07-10 12:20:33
121.   overkill94
I like how Rotoworld has always been on DePodesta's side. From their blurb about Penny starting the all-star game:

"Remember all the heat former Dodgers general manager Paul DePodesta took for swinging a deal for Penny? Good times."

2006-07-10 12:22:29
122.   the OZ
113 It wasn't a mistake at all; it was a perfectly executed head-butt. :)
2006-07-10 12:23:38
123.   Moon Shot
If I could change one thing in Dodger history it would be to give Sandy Koufax a healthy pain-free left elbow.
2006-07-10 12:26:08
124.   blue22
118 - The head butt had less to do with deciding the outcome as it did with Zindane's bizarre end to his career. What a way to go out.

But the game was just about over and ready to go into the shootout when it happened. Unless Zindane happens to be a world-class PK'er, I don't think his ejection did much to lose the game for France.

2006-07-10 12:28:12
125.   underdog
124 Zindane actually is a world class PK'er, one of the best I've seen. So one could argue that it did have an affect on the outcome (since it also seemed to despirit the French a little). But on the other hand, France's goalie looked like he couldn't have stopped much in PKs so I still think Italy would have won.
2006-07-10 12:29:34
126.   Rainman
If I could undo/change anything...

1) Fox buying the team/Piazza trade
2) Sheriff Kevin Malone taking over
3) Pedro trade
4) Kevin Brown/Darren Dreifort contracts
5) Failing to sign Vlad in '04 offseason

2006-07-10 12:30:25
127.   LAT
This morning Cowherd said there are reports that the French guy headbutted the Italian guy because the Italian guy had given him a nipple-twister which wasn't cought on camera.

(BTW this is not a joke)

2006-07-10 12:30:34
128.   blue22
125 - To be fair, Italy's goalie didn't get a glove on any of the 3 PK's by France, either. If that French kick gets just a little bit more of the cross-bar, it might deflect in instead of out, and they might still be kicking.
2006-07-10 12:31:47
129.   bobbygrich
128 See how fast I can make this a soccer thread.
2006-07-10 12:32:26
130.   Steve
Realignment. Some of that old hatred for the braves and the astros is wearing off, and I miss it. I just can't bring myself to hate the Rockies with the same fervor.
2006-07-10 12:32:31
131.   Bob Timmermann
Let the record indicate that I did not bring up the discussion of the final minutes of the World Cup.

Can everyone stipulate to that?

2006-07-10 12:34:38
132.   Sushirabbit
94 case Steve doesn't show...

Well that 4.00 ERA doesn't include all the other pitchers runs he allowed. Since his OPA is 25.00 his OPERA = 29.00 (and counting)

OK I made the 25 up, now I guess I'll have to actually go look it up.

2006-07-10 12:34:43
133.   blue22
131 - Sorry, Bob, your mere presence brings the "soccer guy" out in me...
2006-07-10 12:35:13
134.   D4P
Some of that old hatred for the braves and the astros is wearing off, and I miss it. I just can't bring myself to hate the Rockies with the same fervor.

I concur.

2006-07-10 12:35:49
135.   thinkingblue
overpaying for a still productive right fielder is pretty low.

The 11th best hitting outfielder in the national league for 11 million? In no order, the following are having better years.

Bonds (higher OPS, more home runs)
Andruw Jones
Jacque Jones (higher OPS)
Bobby Abreu

In fact, if Ethier had enough at bats, he would be better than Drew.

2006-07-10 12:36:12
136.   thinkblue0

what are you talking about? The guy is on pace for about 100 RBI...not everyone is David Ortiz.

2006-07-10 12:37:56
137.   underdog
128 True, and most of goalkeeping on penalty kicks is guessing right and hoping the kicker screws up badly. Otherwise, it's really tough.

And sorry for soccer talk -- back to baseball.. I still standby my picks of the Dodgers late 80s/early 90s drafts as high atop my wish list, along with the DeShields/Pedro trade, the O'Malleys, and the Dreifort contract.

2006-07-10 12:38:01
138.   brandesh
If I could change one thing I think it would be Lasorda's handling of Valenzuela and Hershiser. I think both would be HOF's if they had been worked less. Of course 1988 might not have ever happened...
2006-07-10 12:39:23
139.   blue22
135 - Most all of those players are either making more than Drew, or have not yet reached FA. What's your point?

And Jacque Jones? You sure you want him on there? He's having a good first half, but really? Would you do a Jacque Jones for JD Drew trade today?

2006-07-10 12:40:13
140.   Bob Timmermann
Would the Dodgers have a better onfield product if the O'Malley family was still running the team?

And how would that manifest itself?

2006-07-10 12:40:49
141.   D4P
Let's make a list of all the relief pitchers who are having better years than $4 million Danys Baez.

You go first.

2006-07-10 12:42:45
142.   blue22
140 - Raise prices on tickets, concessions, parking; more ads in the stadiums; move TV and radio affiliates every 2-3 years.

Hmm, sounds familiar.

2006-07-10 12:45:17
143.   Bluebleeder87

the one thing I trully trully hate are nipple twisters (I'll get in a fist fate with you if you pull that on me!!)

2006-07-10 12:45:19
144.   bobbygrich
140 From 1989-1997, the Dodgers had two post-season appearances. Since the sale in 1998, the Dodgers have made one.

My hunch is that the wish that the O'Malleys kept the franchise has more to do with the off-the-field issues than how the team performed on-the-field.

And since the O'Malleys have no other revenue sources, if they had kept the team, many of the changes people complain about, advertising, ticket prices, etc., probably would have had to been made at some point.

2006-07-10 12:47:05
145.   Bluebleeder87

yeah, I think Dan Evans brain wasn't working right that day/week, how ever long it took for the dael fo finalise.

2006-07-10 12:47:56
146.   Art H Tracy
When Depo was first hired, I told my Dad that the most overvalued (though phenomenal) player on the Dodgers was Eric Gagne. I hoped that Depo would have enough juice/Howard Roarke in him to trade Gagne. With the benefit of hindsight, I would undo the fact that Depo held on to him.

I read this sight every day - thanks to Jon and all the posters for the diversion. I think I'll put BODT on the birthday list.

2006-07-10 12:47:59
147.   Bob Timmermann
I don't think the O'Malley family could have maintained effective control of the Dodgers in the current finacial situation of baseball.

The problem was who ended up buying the team, not that the team was sold.

2006-07-10 12:50:07
148.   bigcpa
135 Baseball Prospectus NL RF ranking Runs Above Replacement Player:

1. Abreu ($14M/yr)
2. Hawpe (league min.)
3. B Giles ($13M/yr)
4. Drew ($11M/yr)

Seems about right. Hard to believe Hawpe is the only one on that list with 10+ HR.

2006-07-10 12:51:12
149.   thinkblue0
The 11th best hitting outfielder in the national league for 11 million? In no order, the following are having better years.

You say this as if the guys you list are making less money. Let's take a look.

Bonds (higher OPS, more home runs) 20 million

Bay - hasn't hit free agency yet, will definitely make more than 11 mill

Andruw Jones - 13.5 mill

Beltran - 13.5 mill

Jaque Jones - gotta be kidding. This guy is terrible...he's been playing WAY over his head while Drew hasn't even hit a full stride yet. Guarantee by the end of the year Jones' numbers aren't where Drew's are.

Soriano - 10 mill...will make A LOT more next year.

Kearns - Kearns is a good young player who also hasn't hit free agency...but he's not THAT great.

Holliday and Hawpe - haven't hit free agency.

Abreu - 13.6 mill

I don't get the point in your post. You say Drew makes 11 mill then post players with "better years" but they're all either making MORE than the 11 mill Drew makes or they haven't hit free agency yet.

That's like me saying I can't believe we're paying Lowe what we're paying him when Liriano makes basically nothing. The argument makes no sense.

2006-07-10 12:54:23
150.   Jason Watts
Scott Boras not injuring his knee in the minor leagues. He goes on to play a long career in the majors and never becoming an agent.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-07-10 12:54:29
151.   bobbygrich
135, 139, 141.

Once again a small tree in the forest but I just don't think linking a player's contract to production is a fair comparison or otherwise, any player that has a breakthrough prior to his arbitration/free agent eligibilty is always going to be better than a veteran.

Was Eric Gagne a better player when he made the minimun? How about Paul Loduca, his best years were when he made a much smaller salary than he does today.

David Wright and Jason Bay are great values today, how about when they start making the big money.

I just think if you want to say Drew is having a so-so year, that's fine but to say he is not a certain amount of money is not a valid argument.

2006-07-10 12:56:38
152.   Steve
Jason Watts just made The Best of Dodger Thoughts, Vol. II.
2006-07-10 12:57:10
153.   bobbygrich
146 If you are referring to the Dreifort signing, as referenced above, that was a Kevin Malone move.

The first move he could have made but didn't was re-signing Chan Ho Park.

2006-07-10 13:02:21
154.   DodgerFaninRedSoxLand
Although it's not my #1, it bugs me to this day that Jeff Shaw came over for Paul Konerko.

It really would be nice to have him at 1B right now, Nomar or no.

2006-07-10 13:02:30
155.   blue22
151 - Was Eric Gagne a better player when he made the minimun?

Years - Combined Salary - Combined WARP3's

1999-2003 - $1.44M - 22.4
2003-2006 - $23M - 9.4

I think its pretty clear Gagne was a better player when he made the minimum. Unfortunately it appears that he let the money go to his head, because he simply hasn't been the same since getting paid.


2006-07-10 13:08:30
156.   Andrew Shimmin
So, I didn't think much of it when Marty worried that LD% might hamper his enjoyment of the game, but, looking at Offerman's numbers I'm freaked out. There's this voice in my head that keeps trying to defend him: Look at that ISOd! He OPS+ed over 100 four times! Once he got out of L.A., his SB% climbed back up over 22%!

I don't like moneyball anymore.

2006-07-10 13:09:45
157.   Sushirabbit
150,152 I second the nomination!

Sorry, Steve, I didn't realize you were here to make your own comments about Baez.

2006-07-10 13:12:33
158.   regfairfield
156 His defense was abysmal though, so much that his WARP was basically non existant. As soon as Kansas City moved him to second, he became a worthwhile player.
2006-07-10 13:15:21
159.   Steve
I didn't realize you were here to make your own comments about Baez.

Oh, no I'm not.

2006-07-10 13:20:41
160.   blue22
158 - As soon as Kansas City moved him to second, he became a worthwhile player if LA had figured that out sooner, there'd have been no hole at second to fill in 1993, which of course would've only meant one thing:

Pedro Martinez for Jay Bell?

2006-07-10 13:22:35
161.   Marty
I'll chime in:

1. Koufax never hurts his elbow.
2. Tommy Davis doesn't snag his cleats at second.
3. Bill Buckner doesn't blow out his ankle and stays with the team.
4. Jody Reed never exists.
5. Bill Seinsoth doesn't fall asleep at the wheel.

2006-07-10 13:26:54
162.   Jacob L
Steve's 130 reminds me that I might like to change the end of the 1991 season, and in particular the way Reds and Astros laid down for Atlanta. If they'd only known the monster they created.
2006-07-10 13:29:27
163.   Mr Customer
I'm late to join, and I agree with much of the above, but I would gladly delete the Ted Lilly for Carlos Perez portion of that deal in '98.

Not that Lilly is all that good, but I detest Carlos Perez.

2006-07-10 13:29:34
164.   D4P
The entire decade of the 1990s should be erased. The loss of Piazza would be more than made up for by the erasure of Strawberry, Davis, Daniels, Delino, Worrell, Dreifort, Awfulman, etc. etc. etc. from our respective memories.
2006-07-10 13:30:04
165.   StolenMonkey86
the top 20 Ctrl-Z list, minus the obvious Pedro for Delino

1) Letting Kevin Malone be anything more than a spectator at Dodger Stadium
2) Trading Piazza, which ultimately led to Odalis Perez' Dodger career
3) Trading John Franco
4) Not signing Seung-Yeop Lee (better hitting Korean player, see for WBC numbers)
5) Stop Steve Howe from ever using drugs
6) Andy Ashby free agent signing
7) Giving Dreifort a $55 million deal
8) Letting Hershiser go, preventing the Dodgers from winning a postseason game in the 1990s and Hershiser from being a career Dodger and being a potential first-ballot HOF-er
9) Jim Tracy when they could have had Mike Scioscia
10) Kevin Brown free agent signing
11) Drafting Darren Dreifort
12) Stop Strawberry from being a worthless human being
13) Giving JD Drew a Dreifort contract
14) Not signing Beltre, or anyone else to be a third baseman
15) Konerko for Shaw
16) Guillermo Mota running away from Mike Piazza
17) Not ordering an intentional walk every time Chan Ho Park faced Barry Bonds
18) Letting Jose Valentin wear a Dodger uniform
19) The NY Post's rumors about Koufax
20) NBC stops covering baseball and basketball, instead covers the olympics and tennis.

2006-07-10 13:33:25
166.   deburns
I would like Stan Williams to have had an acquaintance with the strike zone in the 1962 playoff.
And I wish the team would scrap the saccharine song they play about raising a hullabaloo and reinstate "Follow the Dodgers" from Brooklyn days. You can find the lyrics in "Bums", which I recommend to those who haven't read it.
2006-07-10 13:39:39
167.   Sushirabbit
Using ESPN's numbers I just went through Baez stats and subtracting ERs from Rs I get 5 for the year. I sure thought he allowed more runs to come in than that (that were attributed to other pitchers). R just stands for runs, right? Anybody else want to verify my, um "math"? If that number holds up, those 5 runs sure made an impression on me.
2006-07-10 13:41:50
168.   blue22
167 - Runs minus earned runs simply gives you unearned runs.

To find "inherited runners allowed to score", you'll need to go somewhere else. Most mainstream stat db's won't have them. Maybe Baseball Prospectus or Hardball Times.

2006-07-10 13:41:58
169.   JoeyP
How was not signing Adrian Beltre a bad move?

Drew for 11mils a year, no one can convince me thats a bad move bc players of his talent usually make that amount of money.

Its when you pay money for players without that kind of talent (Beltre, Eric Karros) that you get hurt.

2006-07-10 13:43:57
170.   D4P
I'm no expert, but I believe (R - ER) just gives you the number of unearned runs, not the number of "inherited baserunners allowed to score," which is apparently what you're trying to calculate.
2006-07-10 13:44:37
171.   D4P
Er, yeah, what 168 said.
2006-07-10 13:45:59
172.   JoeyP
Kevin Brown's another guy that sure the Dodgers overpaid, but he had good years with the Dodgers. I dont think he's a mistake either. Maybe the mistake was not signing RJ to that deal instead of KB, but I'd take KB on my team. In the end, its all about whether a guy is a difference making player. KB was that. #1/#2 pitchers dont grow on trees.

How can letting Jose Valentin wear a Dodgers uniform be in your list as well? The guy was coming off a 30HR season and just happened to tear his knee sliding into home. He wasnt a bad player for what he should have been (platoon). He just got hurt. He's showing this year that he isnt completely done.

2006-07-10 13:47:37
173.   blue22
172 - The Kevin Brown mistake was the 7 years, not so much the cash involved, IMO.
2006-07-10 13:48:11
174.   ToyCannon
1. Campy's accident
2. Jody Reed wasn't an ignorant greedy little pig.
3. Roberto Clemente stays with the team who signed him.
4. O'Malley sells to Moreno
5. Dodgers win the 5th game of the 74 series so I could use my tickets to see the 6th or 7th game.
6. Jackie Robinson replaces Walter Alston in 1958 and uses Sandy Koufax the way he would have liked to have seen Alston use him.
2006-07-10 13:48:47
175.   Bob Timmermann
Baez has inherited 24 runners this season and 10 of them have scored.
2006-07-10 13:49:26
176.   Mr Customer

I've always been in favor of calculating ERA based on bases taken from each pitcher faced.

.5 Runs for a runner scoring from 2nd, .25 for an inherited runner scoring from third, etc.

The balance would be charged to the previous pitcher, therefore balancing the ERA descrepancy between starters and relievers.

Then again, ERA is completely and utterly useless, so we might as well leave it as-is.

2006-07-10 13:50:44
177.   Eric L
165 It would be nice to take a look at what BB-America was saying about Dreifort at the time of the draft. There were certainly players that were selected later on in the draft that have ended up being better than Dreifort.

I seem to remember him being fairly highly regarded at the time.

Once again, picking nits. Drafting Dreifort wasn't a horrible mistake. His first FA contract was the mistake.

2006-07-10 13:52:03
178.   Bob Timmermann
Other Dodger relievers in the inheritance department:

Beimel 16 runners/4 runs
Broxton 13 runners/3 runs
Carrara 3 runners/0 runs
Perez 3 runners/1 run
Saito 17 runners/5 runs

2006-07-10 13:57:02
179.   thinkingblue
what are you talking about? The guy is on pace for about 100 RBI...not everyone is David Ortiz.

So F'ing what that he's on pace for 100 RBIs? Since when do sabrly inclined people look at RBIs? He's hitting 4th, it's sad he doesn't have MORE RBIs with all those chances he gets.

2006-07-10 13:57:14
180.   JoeyP
173. That was the market then. Players were getting long-term deals. Its either give this guy what he wants and be a good team in at least his first 4-5 years, or dont sign him and have bad pitching.

The deal stunk, but thats the market. Lowe getting 4yrs will probably hurt the Dodgers in two years, but that was the market. I'm glad we have him now, and if he sucks in 2008 so be it.

I really dont think long term deals hurt, as long as they are given to truely difference making players. Its a risk, but the alternative is spending that money in the nearer term on lesser talents. Thats not going to help your team.

Malone's worst deal was giving Karros that extension, Dreifort's contract (mainly bc Dreifort hadnt shown he was good enough to warrant that type of deal), and Devon White.

I'll give him a pass on Green and Kevin Brown, bc at the time those two were difference making players. I'll never fault a GM for spending money on a guy that will make a difference for a team.

2006-07-10 13:57:53
181.   Jacob L
I don't think anybody would argue that Kevin Brown wasn't an elite pitcher, but 7 yrs at $105 million can put a real hurting on your franchise. When you figure in that Brown was what, 35, when he signed that deal, its certifiable. We got 2 or 3 good years out of Brown, and that was about all you could reasonably expect.

The only reason you wouldn't count Brown among the team's worst debacles was that Dan Evans pulled off a miracle trade, such that the Yankees were on the hook for the most worthless part of that contract (and got servicable talent in return!). On the other hand, that trade may have ended the era in which the Yankees were the place that bad contracts went to die - and that hurts everybody.

2006-07-10 14:00:51
182.   natepurcell
From Goldstein at BP (free content)

Scott Elbert, lhp, Double-A Jacksonville (Dodgers)

Quick rule of thumb: If somebody can get it done at Double-A before he is 21, watch out. In 17 Florida State League starts, Elbert had a 2.37 ERA with 97 strikeouts in 83.2 innings and just 57 hits allowed. Bumped up to the Southern League over the weekend, Elbert dominated in his Jacksonville debut, striking out nine over five innings while giving up one hit, a home run. While he turns 21 in August, his rise from Double-A to the majors might take a little longer than Chad Billingsley. His raw stuff is very good, but he's a little rough around the edges, struggling with control at times and still refining his changeup. Nonetheless, yet another young pitching stud in the Dodgers organization.

Preston Mattingly, ss, Rookie-level GCL Dodgers

Eyebrows were raised when the Dodgers selected Mattingly with the 31st overall pick in June. As it turns out, Mattingly had a impressive late charge in the season, drawing more (and more important) scouts to his games in Indiana, with a number of teams that thought they had a chance to grab him in the fourth-to-sixth rounds suddenly considering him with their supplemental picks. Currently riding an eight-game hitting streak in which he's gone 19-for-50, Matting is batting .367/.400/.449 overall in 13 games. Preston has very little in common with his father--he swings from the right size, he's much larger (6-foot-3, 205 pounds), and a significantly better athlete, though few believe he can stay at shortstop. The one thing he does have in common so far, however, is the most important thing: he can hit.

I apologized if this has been talked about already.

2006-07-10 14:01:07
183.   the OZ
178 So, 13/52 total bequethed runner scored on those dudes, not counting Baez, or exactly 25%.

Baez has allowed 10 of 24, so 41.67%. To get to 25%, he would have to strand his next 16 inherited runners.

2006-07-10 14:01:12
184.   blue22
180 - I was stoked at the time because he was fresh off of consecutive WS appearances and was a legit #1. That said, giving a big money, 7-year deal to a 34-year old starting pitcher is a major risk. There's a reason the market so vigorously corrected itself.

What were the other pitching deals of that length back then - Hampton I remember. Who else?

2006-07-10 14:03:41
185.   blue22
183 - Which puts his "not that bad" ERA of 4.00 into proper perspective.
2006-07-10 14:03:49
186.   JoeyP
How was that a bad deal for the Yankees?
They traded Weaver (7.5 and 9.5) for Kevin Brown (owed 15 and 15).

Unless my math is off, they were getting Kevin Brown for essentially 8 mils each of those two seasons. Even at KB's worst, he's still more likely to make a difference than Jeff Weaver (who doesnt make a difference whatsoever).

2006-07-10 14:04:47
187.   thinkingblue
You say this as if the guys you list are making less money. Let's take a look.

My point is that Drew is greatly underachiving for a guy who is expected to be a top outfielder. Money aside, he's only the 11th best NL outfielder right now, and probably about the 24 or so best outfielder in the majors right now.

The argument makes no sense

My argument is that I wish we wouldn't have signed a guy with only 1 healthy season, and now, he's not even producing like every says he will.

Jaque Jones - gotta be kidding. This guy is terrible...he's been playing WAY over his head while Drew hasn't even hit a full stride yet. Guarantee by the end of the year Jones' numbers aren't where Drew's are

Maybe, but right now Jones has more home runs and a higher OPS. I'll keep an eye on that.

I just don't like JD Drew. I think he's overrated. D4P doesn't like Jeff Kent. That's just his opinion. I don't like JD Drew. That's just my opinion.

2006-07-10 14:05:53
188.   natepurcell

They also payed for some of Weaver's salary. You also are not factoring the fact that Brown basically became a broken down shell of his former self.

2006-07-10 14:06:59
189.   gentega
Giving away Roberto Clemente. I can't think of anything even close to this one.
2006-07-10 14:07:31
190.   Mr Customer

Hindsight, and all that...

You are correct, in that talent was never DD's big problem, as we are all so painfully aware.

Without further ado, the following "impact" players were taking after Dreifort in '93.

7. Trot Nixon
12.Billy Wagner
14.Derrek Lee
15.Chris Carpenter
20.Torii Hunter
21.Jason Varitek
46.Scott Rolen
86.Matt Clement
207.Mark Lorretta
320.Kevin Millwood
389.Keith Foulke
414.Bill Mueller
488.Jermaine Dye
671.Richie Sexson

Old friends Alex Cora and Paul Lo Duca were also drafted in '93, as well as new "friend" Mark Hendrickson.

Some NYY 3B, too. (as if I had to tell you)

2006-07-10 14:07:52
191.   Jacob L
Its funny when you think about all the flak the Dodgers have had this year and last for signing "injury prone" players.

In the recent past the Dodgers signed both Brown and Fred McGriff, guys whose rep included never getting hurt. Just goes to show.

As a side note, does everybody remember the contest that had to guess the date of McGriff's 500th homer? My brother is still waiting to cash his ticket for "never."

2006-07-10 14:09:43
192.   natepurcell
I just don't like JD Drew. I think he's overrated. D4P doesn't like Jeff Kent. That's just his opinion. I don't like JD Drew. That's just my opinion.

No one takes D4P's Jeff Kent rantings seriously because he cant see straight through his emotions, should we do the same with you?

Yes Drew hasn't produced like he should but its been half the season. Lets see what the second half looks like before completely dismissing him.

2006-07-10 14:12:05
193.   the OZ
190 For that matter, I'll add this:

Losing the coin flip for the right to draft Alex Rodriguez with the #1 pick in 1993. I'd like to have that one back.

2006-07-10 14:13:11
194.   JoeyP
188. Thats valid, but before the deal was made the steroid policy wasnt in place. Maybe Brown could have maintained his excellence if the old rules were in place.

2003-Kevin Brown had a 2.39ERA and threw 211IP. He was 38.

Now, would you rather pay this guy 8mils for his next two years, or Jeff Weaver 8mils for his next two years, at that point in their careers?

I'd go with Kevin Brown in a heartbeat.
If you're evaluating based on thought-process, there's no way that was a bad deal for the Yankees.

2006-07-10 14:13:20
195.   natepurcell
So I've finally gotten around to watch "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic channel and its basically just as funny as the southpark parody of it.
2006-07-10 14:13:35
196.   thinkingblue
Lets see what the second half looks like before completely dismissing him.

I would just hope Drew can see the second half outside the trainers room.

2006-07-10 14:19:30
197.   natepurcell

Funny.... I guess.

2006-07-10 14:20:31
198.   natepurcell
Okay, whos going to win the homerun derby?
2006-07-10 14:21:32
199.   blue22
198 - If this last week/month is any indication, it's Ortiz in a runaway.
2006-07-10 14:23:18
200.   the OZ
194 I try not to assume that individual players were using steroids (OK, sometimes I do), but I seem to remember a lot of talk about Kevin Brown adding a lot of muscle before the 2002 or 2003 season and attributing it to switching to decaffienated coffee. I hadn't thought of it until your comment, and now I think it's funny.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-07-10 14:24:43
201.   the OZ
198 Nomar. And he's going to do it with only 10 home runs.
2006-07-10 14:24:44
202.   thinkingblue

Ryan Howard.

2006-07-10 14:26:15
203.   natepurcell

I might go with Ryan Howard too.

2006-07-10 14:26:30
204.   Sushirabbit
Thanks for all the info on inherited runners. I thought I knew what I was looking for, but couldn't find it. 10 of 24 sounds more like it. Wow.

195 The Dog Whisperer is one of the few shows I actually watch/like. Of course this is in large part due to the fact that my 4 year old, my wife, and myself can all stand to watch it. One of the coolest things I've caught on the show was when Cesar introduced a new dog to his "pack" and that dog was agressive toward one of the pack, the pack dog immediately looked at Cesar, like "are you going to take care of this, or am I?"

2006-07-10 14:28:53
205.   Mr Customer
180. The whole salary variable gets overplayed. The 3+3 Arbitration rules, and the general increase of an older player's salary, despite a decline in overall value, make any return-on-investment discussion very dicey. The money figures are really only meaningful in aggregate.

I get a lot more concerned over the term of contracts more than the cash.

IMHO, 4 years is about the longest any sane GM should be willing to go for guaranteed money.

2006-07-10 14:32:03
206.   natepurcell

"Don't reason with it, you must dominate it."

2006-07-10 14:37:42
207.   Penarol1916
194. You can't say Brown at $8.0MM a year and Weaver at the same salary, that is just stupid. It's either Brown at $8.0MM and Weaver at $0, or Brown at $15.0MM and Weaver at $8.0MM. You can't subtract Weaver's salary as savings on the Brown and then double count Weaver's salary. You are making it look like the Yankees would have paid them the same amount. If that is how the Yankees were thinking, then, yes, it is extremely easy to criticize the decision based on their thought process, because their thought process was more sloppy than my 8-year old daughter's.
2006-07-10 14:39:40
208.   bobbygrich
51 Nate, take a look and comment, maybe we could move to some of our more positive developments this year.
2006-07-10 14:41:06
209.   Brian Y
I remember Dreifort was heralded for not only his pitching at Wichita St. but also his bat. He was a good hitter even for us he was. I was wondering why they never tried to stick him at 1B or OF and put some use of him after he got hurt? If he can't pitch for $11mill he can still hit!

Anyways, too bad we didnt have the #1 pick and had gotten Arod

2006-07-10 14:41:54
210.   Vishal
[121] brad penny on paul depodesta:

"Paul DePodesta stuck his neck out for me," Penny said. "He thought I was the right guy to help the team, and it didn't work out. I felt bad that I got hurt in my second start. The injury was tough. It was hard to sleep at night, but hopefully somewhere DePodesta is smiling right now."

from's article on penny starting the all-star game.

2006-07-10 14:42:18
211.   Brian Y
Oh and let's just nip this all in the bud. The worst thing for the Dodgers was when it was no longer controlled by the O'Malley family. Therefore, no Piazza trade, no Jeff Shaw, no KEVIN MALONE!!!
2006-07-10 14:42:38
212.   bobbygrich
Bob, maybe my recollection of the story is different but if Roberto Clemente had any decision on where he played, he would have predated free agency by about 22 years.
2006-07-10 14:43:10
213.   blue22
I was happy to see Brown's 2/$33M off the books early, let me tell you. That last year he had was just enough of a lure to give him just a weensy bit of trade value.

Anything Weaver gave was gravy. 2 league-average years was plenty, thank you very much.

2006-07-10 14:44:01
214.   bobbygrich
210 Regardless of what you think, that's a nice thing to say and tells you that some of these guys realize how their play impacts the ones who makes the decisions.
2006-07-10 14:47:15
215.   blue22
211 - Thank you for setting that straight for all of us here. If it's ok with you, I'll disagree.

I echo Bob (and paraphrase Phil Hartman) in saying that "Sale - good. Fox - BAAAD".

2006-07-10 14:47:31
216.   Johnson
201 Nomar. And he's going to do it with only 10 home runs.

Yeah, but he'll still manage to rack up 100 RBIs doing it.

2006-07-10 14:51:07
217.   Bob Timmermann
I don't recall commenting on Clemente. That was Eric Enders.
2006-07-10 14:53:22
218.   Sam DC
There's some good stuff up over at Inside the Dodgers, including Josh's description of the sleepover night and his report that he's heard Peter Gammons is doing quite well.

And 3.5 won NL Player of the Week.

2006-07-10 14:54:27
219.   Bob Timmermann
My "Accuweather" ForecastFox icons on my brwoser indicate that the forecast for Los Angeles right now is 75 and light snow.

I really should have worn a jacket today.

2006-07-10 14:54:29
220.   natepurcell

The feel good story of the Dodgers minors is probably James Loney. Even skeptics cant really discount what he has done this year down in AAA. his ISOp was 200 in June and so far in July, over 250 or so. So his power is definately increasing. Sickels gave him a C+ last year and I think Loney will be moved up a full letter grade to a B+ this year. With Laroche moving up to an A- and Elbert staying at B+ (subjective to change with his AA performance)

2006-07-10 15:01:50
221.   bobbygrich
220 Nate has thrown down the gauntlet.
2006-07-10 15:02:17
222.   natepurcell
insidethedodgers say Ethier was named NL player of the week. Good for 3.5, he deserved it.
2006-07-10 15:02:46
223.   bobbygrich
218 Sam, what are people saying about Chad Cordero this year, is it the lack of consistent work or what?
2006-07-10 15:02:54
224.   JoeyP
You are making it look like the Yankees would have paid them the same amount

They would have.
If you trade Player A (7.5mils) for Player B (15mils), you end up having to pay 7.5 mils.
If you keep Player A (7.5) mils, then you end up having to pay 7.5 mils.

How are you missing this?

For the Dodgers, it did save them money. They saved aroudn 7.5 mils each season. They traded 15mils and took back 7.5.

But the Yankees ended up paying the same either way, whether they kept Weaver's deal, or traded him for Kevin Brown's deal.

That trade is overrated by some anyway. Its not like KB was broken down goods at the time of the deal. Dodgers got 7.5 mils in cap space each season, and a mediocre pitcher for him. Compare that deal to the Shawn Green deal, and its not even close. Green was coming off a bad season, and DePo still got more for Green than Evans was able to muster out of Kevin Brown IMO.

If you got a guy that throws 211ip of 2.39ERA, and the best you can get is Jeff Weaver and 7.5 mils bucks for two seasons, thats not a good deal.

2006-07-10 15:03:00
225.   thinkblue0
My point is that Drew is greatly underachiving for a guy who is expected to be a top outfielder. Money aside, he's only the 11th best NL outfielder right now

The thing is, you act as if everyone thought Drew was the best outfielder there is...when in fact, no one has ever said that.

Drew is a good hitter, good at getting on base, and decent defensively. You're overly biased against him to the point that you act as if he's the worst player in the game which he's not.

Also, who cares if he has 100 rbi? You kidding? I'm a saber guy but that doesn't mean I won't take a guy with 100 rbi. More times than not, if someone has 100 rbi and scores about 100 runs then they've had a pretty good season.

2006-07-10 15:03:15
226.   blue22
220 - Nate, what is going on with him? Just as early as this season in LA, he looked like he was using a wet, rolled-up newspaper to hit. Now he's at .380 with power? Is it for real, and should he be in the mix next year in LA?
2006-07-10 15:04:21
227.   Bob Timmermann
I'm surprised Ethier won player of the week. Usually when a Dodger has a big week, the player of the week goes to Shawn Green or Paul Lo Duca.
2006-07-10 15:08:02
228.   regfairfield
224 That is some really, really bizzare math you're using.

Say the Yankees have a 100 million dollar payroll pre Weaver/Brown

With Weaver: 107 million
With Brown: 115 million

You could say Brown is making seven million, while Weaver makes nothing, but there is no way they are making the same amount.

2006-07-10 15:08:28
229.   Sam DC
223 Cordero's never had dominating stuff; he's just had success really moving the ball around the zone. This year, he's pitched pretty well overall, but with (now 3) huge meltdowns -- one at ATL, one at Cincy, and yesterday at RFK. Last year, he flirted with disaster, loading the bases and getting out of it several times, and this feels a little like the odds just catching up to him.

I think most Nationals fans feel like the team has many bigger problems than Cordero coming back to earth.

2006-07-10 15:09:58
230.   Bob Timmermann
Still snowing in Downtown Los Angeles.
2006-07-10 15:10:39
231.   natepurcell
Nate, what is going on with him? Just as early as this season in LA, he looked like he was using a wet, rolled-up newspaper to hit. Now he's at .380 with power? Is it for real, and should he be in the mix next year in LA?

I guess hes just putting it all together. If he had went to college, this would be his first full years in the minors. I still don't think Loney is done growing as a player. I still think he still has untapped power potential waiting to be found. Loney could be looked at as a player in LA next season, if not, he gives the Dogers great depth at 1b and the corner outfield positions. Alot of this hinges on what they do with Nomar. Right now, I would probably offer Nomar a 2 yrs deal with a 3rd yr option that becomes guarenteed if he reaches a certain number of PAs in his first two years combined. This way, we protect ourselves from injury. This does NOT mean we should trade Loney though. Loney is our wedge against Nomar and if he rips his groin again. I also think Nomar should learn to play the outfield this offseason. a 1b/lf/rf rotation of drew, ethier, loney and nomar can provide pretty good production with Kemp in CF.

2006-07-10 15:11:48
232.   D4P
Yeah. Nothing wrong with RBIs as an outcome, but using them to predict future performance is another story.
2006-07-10 15:15:45
233.   Linkmeister
I'll go back even further for terrible things that happened to the Dodgers I'd like to see undone:

1) Hugh Casey's spitter that Owens couldn't catch in the WS
2) Pete Reiser's habit of running into walls, possibly ruining a HOF career
3) Branca/Thomson
4) Campy's accident
5) Koufax's elbow
6) Davis's broken leg
7) Gil Hodges not making it into the HOF

Most of the more recent ones have already been enumerated above.

2006-07-10 15:15:52
234.   natepurcell
my daily Kyler Burke vs Preston Mattingly watch:

Burke:.286/.359/.411 7bb 14k'

Mattingly: .367/.400/.449 3bb 10k

2006-07-10 15:16:57
235.   blue22
231 - Thanks. His eye was good, but he looked so overmatched in April, I figured this kind of development would be done in the offseason, when he has a chance to "lift weights" or whatever euphemism the players use these days ;-)
2006-07-10 15:20:36
236.   Bob Timmermann
The snow has stopped in Los Angeles.
2006-07-10 15:23:53
237.   PlayTwo
These comments are great. If Steve Howe were never introduced to coke. He, his family and the Dodgers, for many years, would have been so much better off.
2006-07-10 15:25:29
238.   Linkmeister
Assuming my PayPal transaction took, another contribution on the way.
2006-07-10 15:31:25
239.   Humma Kavula
a 1b/lf/rf rotation of drew, ethier, loney and nomar can provide pretty good production with Kemp in CF

wow, I like that idea A LOT.

2006-07-10 15:35:00
240.   thinkblue0
wow, I like that idea A LOT.

I hope this was sarcasm

2006-07-10 15:45:38
241.   natepurcell

Why don't you think this is a good idea?

2006-07-10 15:48:05
242.   regfairfield
I'm still not sold on The Rock as a long term solution. Maybe as a stop gap until Kemp, but no longer than that. I'd much rather see out efforts this offseason go towards getting the power bat we desperately need, either Carlos Lee or Jose Guillen.
2006-07-10 15:49:13
243.   underdog
Loney's such a good defensive 1B that I'd rather him stay at first instead of move to the OF, but the Dodgers have him trying the OF out now, too. As with Guzman, I guess they feel this gives him the best chance of contributing more quickly. If Nomar does become a fixture at first... I could see Nomar going back to the other side of the infield, too - 3b? But the idea of him playing in the outfield makes me even more nervous than Loney playing there.
2006-07-10 15:50:26
244.   underdog
242 Um, sorry if this is a stupid question but... The Rock would be who now?
2006-07-10 15:51:31
245.   regfairfield
Ethier. I'm on a crusade to change his nickname.
2006-07-10 15:52:35
246.   underdog
Ah, I see.

Well, things will only get ethier with time.

2006-07-10 15:53:49
247.   natepurcell
I still like 3.5 better then the rock.

although OPSing 948 makes him our #1 outfielder but who says nicknames always have to be politically correct?

2006-07-10 15:54:00
248.   thinkblue0

because constantly moving guys around simply doesn't work. Neither does having guys in and out of the batting order all the time.

I'd like to see Drew stay where he's at, Nomar stay, and same with need to rush Loney any time soon. I like loney a lot, but sadly, I see Ned trading him and just going with Nomar. Wouldn't shock me in the least bit if I hear in a couple weeks that Loney and Guzman are gone for Willis.

2006-07-10 15:55:47
249.   Johnson
241 The only thing that would make me a bit timid about it would be that, assuming each player gets the same number of rest days, two out of four days you'll have to have either Nomar or Loney in LF. Maybe that's not a big deal. Loney's young enough he can't really complain. Nomar would be learning yet another position. Would Nomar consent to play 1/3 of his games in LF - or re-sign with us if he felt he was being bounced around?
2006-07-10 15:57:50
250.   blue22
249 - Yep, Nomar's got leverage again. He might even be able to wrangle a shortstop job from someone this offseason, if he should so choose.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-07-10 15:58:16
251.   natepurcell

If you have players that can play a multiple of positions on the field, why not utilize that? Is there that much of a difference between lf and rf? If Loney can play the outfield reasonably well, why cant we utilize that ability to get his bat in the lineup?

I agree about Nomar, I am a bit weary of moving him off 1b but it would be up to Nomar. If he wants to give it a go, let him give it a go.

Flexibility is a great asset to any team and having it, and not using it it would be a negative.

2006-07-10 16:01:04
252.   natepurcell
I'd much rather see out efforts this offseason go towards getting the power bat we desperately need, either Carlos Lee or Jose Guillen.

What would be a bigger upgrade? Barry Zito over Tomko/whoever is #5 or Carlos Lee over Ethier?

I still think pitching should be a huge priority for this team over the offseason and with our positional prospects almost all pratically ready, the offense should be a 2nd priority.

2006-07-10 16:03:35
253.   JoeyP
250. Ideal situation would be to trade Furcal, resign Nomar to play SS, and then just wait it out until after 2007 when Dunn/Andruw Jones can both be signed.

This would be a killer lineup in 2008

Penny, Zito, Schmidt, Lowe, Billingsley

2006-07-10 16:03:36
254.   natepurcell
I just want to add that I dont think the Dodgers will be in the running for Barry Zito anymore. Colletti doesn't like to deal with Boras and doesn't like giving out contracts in excess length. Zito is going to get the largest contract out of any pitcher in this FA class and Carlos Lee is going to get the largest contract out of any positional player in this FA class.
2006-07-10 16:05:28
255.   underdog
252 I totally agree. I would be excited to add Zito next year, while those OFers mentioned would be about as exciting to me as a bowl of soggy bran flakes. And even less useful to the Dodgers. Pitching, pitching, pitching.
2006-07-10 16:06:46
256.   thinkblue0

it's not necessarily the defense that bugs me as much as the offense. Taking guys in and out of the lineup constantly never seems to work.

2006-07-10 16:06:51
257.   natepurcell

Yea that would be great but since there are 29 other teams out there, the chances of that happening is about .02%

2006-07-10 16:07:13
258.   underdog
I don't think Zito and Schmidt together are possible at all, especially given what Nate says above. One of them is unlikely, two would be near impossible. (I do think the Dodgers would make a run for Zito, though, and he may be up for a deal because he likely would be happy to come home to pitch.)
2006-07-10 16:08:59
259.   natepurcell
Taking guys in and out of the lineup constantly never seems to work.

Its not really taking guys in and out randomly, its about a rotation, one that would benefit drew and nomar greatly since both will be in their 30s and getting a little bit extra rest here and there might let them last a bit longer.

But I can see your point. It was just one idea I threw out there. Whatever Colletti decides to do this winter, there will definatwly be tons of criticism lol.

2006-07-10 16:10:06
260.   blue22
253 - My goodness, you have 8 players making in the $10M+ range. Who bought the team?

We're most likely paying Kent $11M that year too, right?

2006-07-10 16:11:34
261.   natepurcell

You want to trade Furcal now when all winter and late last year you were really vocal in signing him?

2006-07-10 16:12:51
262.   natepurcell

I agree, its basically a huge pipe. If you really are setting your heart on that 2008 lineup, you are preparing yourself for a huge letdown.

2006-07-10 16:13:44
263.   natepurcell
Can ESPN please bring back the catcher cam? That was one of the few gimmick camera angles that I really liked.
2006-07-10 16:22:12
264.   thinkingblue
I'm still not sold on The Rock as a long term solution. Maybe as a stop gap until Kemp, but no longer than that. I'd much rather see out efforts this offseason go towards getting the power bat we desperately need, either Carlos Lee or Jose Guillen.

WHY NOT? Goodness, what does he have to do, hit .400 with a 1.100 OPS? Look, why would we want an injury prone cancer like Guillen, or spend a large contract on Lee instead of on a pitcher like Zito or Schmidt? Makes no sense to have that much against Ethier.

2006-07-10 16:23:07
265.   thinkingblue

Why would you want Dunn?

2006-07-10 16:24:06
266.   thinkingblue
Also, who cares if he has 100 rbi? You kidding? I'm a saber guy but that doesn't mean I won't take a guy with 100 rbi. More times than not, if someone has 100 rbi and scores about 100 runs then they've had a pretty good season.

Drew hits 4th. He should have at least 60 by now.

2006-07-10 16:24:31
267.   Jon Weisman
I like "3.5" more than "the Rock," which, for one thing, is already taken. I like how 3.5 is an evolving nickname.

Of course, I won't ask Daniel Zappala what he thinks.

Thinkingblue, abbreviated cursing on this site is still cursing. Please don't do it.

2006-07-10 16:25:05
268.   ssjames
256 Plus didn't Dunn sign a 4 year extension last year? If so signing him in 2007 would be quite the trick.
2006-07-10 16:25:34
269.   natepurcell
Why would you want Dunn?

Well one reason why I wouldnt want Dunn through his 30 years is that historically, 3 true outcome hitters do not age well at all. Players like dunn who cant run, cant field, cant hit for average at a young age decline significantly faster and at a younger age.

2006-07-10 16:28:12
270.   natepurcell
Honeslty, Lo Duca starting the all stat game is a complete joke. Thats basically it from me when it comes to ASG thoughts.
2006-07-10 16:30:15
271.   natepurcell
Dunns contract situation:

06:$7.5M, 07:$10.5M, 08:$13M club option ($0.5M buyout)

2006-07-10 16:33:27
272.   dzzrtRatt
270 New York, New York. How many times did Omar Vizquel get to start the All-Star game when he was in the same league as Derek Jeter? (That's a rhetorical question by the way. If the answer is "5" I'm going to retire for the day.)
2006-07-10 16:38:45
273.   Steve
The current crop of prospects will either develop and we will win, or they won't, and we will not. The grass on the other side is a stinking brown dead mess. The problem is that we have perfectly good prospects (Hu, Abreu, Loney etc.) that would probably draw interest if they were in some other organization, but if you are trading with the Dodgers, you aren't going to ask for those guys. You are going to ask for Billingsley, Guzman, LaRoche, etc. That's just the way it is. See Boston's absurd Broxton-for-Wells abortion, or Texas's crazy talk for Kevin Mench. Wells isn't worth a copy of Regis Philbin's all-time greatest hits, but if you're dealing with Bill Gates, you ask for the moon.

But I digress. The problem is that our prospects are too good to trade. Only the Dodgers could figure out a way to make this a problem, but there you go. The question is whether we will get out of our own way, and let them develop, or whether Colletti decides that his ego is more important than our future. The early returns on that latter question are not promising, though absentee ballots have yet to be counted.

2006-07-10 16:39:50
274.   Steve
Or if you want a two word summary of that overlong post:

"Prospect inflation"

2006-07-10 16:42:02
275.   Bob Timmermann
Omar Vizquel played in 3 All-Star games: 1998, 1999, and 2002, and didn't star in any of them.

There was this Rodriguez guy....

2006-07-10 16:42:26
276.   coachjpark
Top 5 Worst (Korean-related) Dodger maneuvers:

1. Paul DePodesta's decision to retain Jim Tracy for 2005 season
2. Choosing Dreifort instead of the more proven Chan Ho Park (assuming that 1 of them had to be signed to a long-term deal)
3. Releasing HSC for nothing
4. Giving up on Seo way too early
5. (I can't think of any more...) :)

2006-07-10 16:42:56
277.   tjshere
Re: 6

OK, Sam, I'm in. Thanks for the kick in the butt to get me moving. I was overdue.

2006-07-10 16:50:44
278.   thinkblue0
Drew hits 4th. He should have at least 60 by now.

is there some sort of rule that says he has to have 60 right now?

2006-07-10 16:58:17
279.   the OZ
276 You forg0t:

5. Not acquiring Byung-Hyun Kim
6. Not acquiring Sun Woo Kim
7. Not acquiring Dae-Sung Koo
8. Not acquiring Jung Bong
9. Not acquiring Shin-Soo Choo


2006-07-10 17:04:57
280.   Blu2
278 A big factor in that case would be just how many runners were on base when he came to bat. Some of the stat people can probably tell us how many runners he left on base. Comparing that to the number he has driven in should give us some sort of efficiency rating for him. I'd kinda like to see his numbers in that category compared to Ethier's. I am not a Drew fan. I've always thought he was over-rated and he sure knows how to ride an injury. I don't think the Hall of Fame has reserved any room for him.
2006-07-10 17:06:46
281.   Blu2
279 And you forgot to list "Not acquiring that hot babe on LOST"!
2006-07-10 17:17:46
282.   dzzrtRatt
Brad Penny starting the All-Star game. Not bad for a throw-in in the LoDuca for Choi trade.
2006-07-10 17:19:13
283.   CanuckDodger
I guess I am not the only person who thinks it is unseemly that the guy who posted #276 is so concerned with personnel moves involving people who share his own ethnicity. Racial solidarity is as racist as racial discrimination. And I had no idea that Jim Tracy is Korean.
2006-07-10 17:22:55
284.   D4P
That's "LoDuca, Mota, and Juan E. for Choi". Don't forget the "Mota and Juan E." part.
2006-07-10 17:24:14
285.   Jon Weisman
283 - I am stunned by this comment. If there was an inappropriate comment made, it was this. The idea that a person who merely shows interest in his own culture is the same as someone who discriminates against another culture boggles my mind.

In any event, this is not a topic I wish to seen aired out on Dodger Thoughts. Not because I don't believe in the importance of the topic, but this forum is simply not equipped to handle it.

2006-07-10 17:24:23
286.   dzzrtRatt
283 My take: He was being funny -- self-deprecatingly.
2006-07-10 17:26:44
287.   dzzrtRatt
286 referred to 276. I hope that was clear.
2006-07-10 17:29:32
288.   Bob Timmermann
By the time we got to 276, all the good things to wish for were taken, so coachjpark, a fine sponsor of this site too, just went for something of interest on a smaller scale.
2006-07-10 17:43:29
289.   D4P
If a Canuck were living in Korea and following a Korean baseball league, I don't think it would be unreasonable for him/her to pay special attention to transactions involving Canadian players in said league.
2006-07-10 17:45:50
290.   JoeyP
Why would you want Dunn?

Why wouldnt I want Adam Dunn?
I cant think of another player available that I'd want to play 1st.

Players like dunn who cant run, cant field, cant hit for average at a young age decline significantly faster and at a younger age

I actually disagree with this theory. I've seen it bantered about, but have yet to read any story sighting examples or data that would support this case. If anything, players that depend on their athleticism (bat speed), would decline at a higher rate than players that depend on their strength and strike zone judgement.

My goodness, you have 8 players making in the $10M+ range. Who bought the team?

It could be done. I named 13 players that would probably make around 85mils combined. That leaves 20mils for the bench and bullpen. Thats enough.

You want to trade Furcal now when all winter and late last year you were really vocal in signing him?

Well, I never considered Nomar for SS. But I probably should have.

WHY NOT? Goodness, what does he have to do, hit .400 with a 1.100 OPS?

Once Ethier's luck subsides, then I'll make a more accurate judgement as to whether to want this guy to be a starter in the Of. Right now he's BABIP .430 or so its very hard to gauge how good he truely is. I'd rather keep Kemp/Drew and just sign Andruw Jones though.

2006-07-10 17:50:30
291.   Sam DC
Fundraiser Update

Folks checking in to the thread late, plz take a minute and read comment 6 and think about getting in on the action. Late word is, there's been a lot of support, but we still haven't capped my match. And remember that, while I'll only match $10, no reason not to give more if you can.

Tomorrow, by the way, is lurker day.

2006-07-10 17:51:03
292.   D4P
Andruw Jones' 2005 season seems a bit too Beltre-2004-esque for me. Plus, the guy really doesn't get on base all that much.
2006-07-10 17:52:01
293.   overkill94
290 I believe it's Sickels who uses the phrase "old man skills" or something to describe guys with excellent on-base skills, great power, and little speed. He also says that these players decline quicker than the more athletic types.

An example would be Sheffield, who went from a very athletic all-around player to more of a patient power hitter with less speed. Seems like Vlad may go the same route (less steals, but keeps his power) although I'm not sure he'll ever become an on-base machine.

2006-07-10 17:53:40
294.   popup
I already mentioned a different outcome in the 1966 World Series as my number one wish. A more contemparary wish would be for a good young broadcaster or two to have been hired after 2004 to go along with (and eventually take over for) Vin and Ross Porter.

Stan from Tacoma

2006-07-10 17:58:39
295.   JoeyP
Andruw Jones is a hacker, no doubt.
But he's a hacker that plays CF, is a great OF'er, and even if you take out last year, has still averaged around 34HRs a year. He's been fairly consistent.

I dont think he'd have to hit 40Hrs a year in order to be a good choice for the Dodgers. I think he'd significantly improve the team, moreso than just about every other free agent available (unless you could pry Johan Santana or something similar).

2006-07-10 17:58:51
296.   natepurcell
It was actually Bill James who developed that theory. But whatever. There are tons of articles out there if you cant find them, then you basically havent tried to search for them.
2006-07-10 17:59:01
297.   dzzrtRatt
294 I hear Gary Sutherland is available.
2006-07-10 17:59:45
298.   natepurcell
David Wright is putting on a show, wow. He is the new Golden Boy.
2006-07-10 18:00:37
299.   regfairfield
264 For me to like Ethier, he has to compile more than 180 plate appearances. Even if you don't believe everything about line drive percentage, do you really believe he's one of the best hitters in baseball? A lot can happen in the span from plate appearance 200 to plate appearance 500. After 200 plate appearances last year, Izturis was hitting .346/.391/.420 and look where he finished. While Ethier has more power, his patience right now is almost the same(.047 vs. .045). When his batting average starts to crumble, he's going to become very unpalatable unless that patience shows up again.

Let me put it this way, if you don't like Aybar (I don't remember if you do) it took him about 200 plate appearances before he started slumping. It can take a long time for luck to even out and/or holes to be exposed. I'm not ready to suddenly hand the starting job over to a guy I didn't really like to begin with after a little less than two months of at bats.

2006-07-10 18:05:06
300.   natepurcell
When his batting average starts to crumble, he's going to become very unpalatable unless that patience shows up again.

I think Ethier is suffering from "Andy Laroche in the FSL 2005" syndrome. We knew Laroche had pretty good discipline but he was hitting everything in sight in 2005. Same thing with Ethier this year and Loney in AAA this year. Both players have showed solid bb rates in the past, but right now for them, why walk when you can get a hit? I do think when you see the average come down, the walks will come up.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-07-10 18:05:08
301.   njr
291 Why wait till tomorrow! Lurkers unite!

(Add another donation to your list)

2006-07-10 18:15:22
302.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
What would I change:

#1 They'd (somehow) win the 1978 WS. It was crushing in my childhood for the Dodgers to lose to the Yankees twice in a row (and lose three times in the WS in the 70's). Maybe I'd have grown up a happier kid had the payback occured in 1978 instead of 1981. And, I distinctly remember thinking in '78 that the Dodgers had no chance of beating the Phillies in the LCS, so it would have been a sweet miracle. Furthermore, maybe I'd have less Yankee-hatred if the Dodgers had beaten them 2 out of 3 times in my lifetime.

#2 Trading Pedro Martinez. I know it has been said many times, but how many years can he go on, pitching like that, one of the very best of his generation, and it still hurts. I remember loving the kid fireballer when we had him, so I'm not completely using hindsight.

#3 Not signing Vlad. He's a monster, and it hurts kind of the same way that Pedro hurts. I don't think we'd be arguing about JD Drew if we had Vlad (not that I'm saying anything about JD Drew, I just don't think the Dodgers would have signed Drew if they had Vlad).

And, because I live in San Francisco, here's a few specific to my experience being a Dodger fan up here:
#1-SF Bobby Thompson's home run. I don't know if y'all realize how often you have to hear that insipid Giants-win-the-pennant blah-blah-blah game call if you live here. It's on television broadcasts, they play it at the ballpark... you can hear it coming out of manholes, and it didn't even happen in San Francisco. My life would have so much more harmony without it.

#2-SF Anything from '96-'03 so the Dodgers would have finished ahead of the Jints. That way, the Jints fans here would have had a reason to be so rabidly insecure, despite a lengthy era of superiority.

#3-SF Victor Conte / Barry Bonds. Kind of like the above two, but I can't think of anything more annoying that what Bonds has done since he allegedly started using the 'roids. It contributed to #2 above, and it makes being a Dodger fan here more difficult. Plus, I think I would have had to deal with fewer of his home runs in games I saw at PacBell Park.

2006-07-10 18:15:45
303.   scareduck
300 - I think this qualifies as wishful thinking, or, see McPherson, Dallas and a list as long as your arm of players who have imploded at the major league level because they couldn't make contact.

You certainly expect more K's as a player progresses up the ladder. But they also have to work them back down in order to be useful players at the major league level.

2006-07-10 18:19:28
304.   scareduck
283 - not to extend this discussion further than necessary, but.

Tommy Lasorda.

Mike Piazza.

I guess my point is that this kind of influence doesn't have to be a negative.

2006-07-10 18:20:11
305.   natepurcell

Well I forgot to add good contact rates. I thought that was implied when i used ethier, loney and laroche. all 3 have had good contact rates in the minors.

Thats why I stress contact rate when it comes to our positional prospects.

2006-07-10 18:22:41
306.   dzzrtRatt
300 I don't think I'd call what Ethier is doing right now "suffering."

As soon as I find my wallet, I'm going to give some money to Dodger Thoughts, because only at Dodger Thoughts will I find baseball fans complaining -- with an air of authority -- about a player who's been hitting nearly .500. Sucks to be you, Andre!

2006-07-10 18:23:11
307.   Marty
I never got a confirmation from Paypal. Jon, can you see if my donation made it?
2006-07-10 18:25:16
308.   Marty
307 Nevermind. I figured out how to look it up myself and it made it.
2006-07-10 18:25:43
309.   ToyCannon
JD Drew continues to have a very sore shoulder Shawn Green like season.

From Rotowire:
He is batting .287 with nine home runs and 50 runs batted in but has not hit a homer since June 1, a span of 98 at-bats. He has one home run in his last 130 at-bats.

On June 2nd I posted that JD needed to kick up his power because he was only on a pace for 18 or so. Jon reminded that he was on a pace for 27 with his 9 home runs. Evidently JD felt very strongly about proving me right and decided not to hit a home to get back on the pace I miscalculated for him in the 1st place. The power of Dodger Thoughts is astonishing.

2006-07-10 18:26:13
310.   dzzrtRatt
304 It was within my lifetime that mediocre white boxers like Jerry Quarry and Gerry Cooney were promoted purely because of their skin color. They didn't have the audacity to call them "great white hopes" but that was the idea. And, as I recall, nobody seemed to take great offense to it, although maybe they should've.
2006-07-10 18:28:45
311.   capdodger
Ethier's nickname is "3.5"? Is this because he's not quite a third outfielder but better than a fourth?
2006-07-10 18:29:22
312.   dsfan
Could be purely coincidental, but Drew has appeared far less comfortable since suffering the injury in Colorado some four weeks ago.
2006-07-10 18:30:54
313.   Bob Timmermann
I blame Kenny Lofton for not setting the fire under Drew to an appropriate height.
2006-07-10 18:31:21
314.   natepurcell

yes. Its a compromise. Greg Brock should get the credit for the nickname.

2006-07-10 18:31:56
315.   scareduck
311 - yes. I'm in favor of starting a Wiki just so irregulars or newbies can keep track of the nicknames.
2006-07-10 18:31:59
316.   CanuckDodger
285 -- It's Jon's site, so he can rule out discussing a topic if he wants, and I'll respectfully abide by that, but since I believe Jon unwittingly misrepresented my position, before I go silent on this issue I think it is only fair to let me say that what I meant by "racial solidarity" is a lot different than "a person showing interest in his own culture." I wish I could expand on that, but in the interest of not keeping this issue alive, I am not going to go beyond directly answering what Jon said in 285.
2006-07-10 18:33:33
317.   ToyCannon
I thought JD Drew was 3.5, someone who plays more then a 4th outfielder but not as much as a starting outfielder. Or was that Milton Bradley?
2006-07-10 18:45:29
318.   dzzrtRatt
There was lengthy, days-long discussion of whether Andre Ethier was a fourth outfielder, or if he was worthy of being seen as a starter. I guess he landed on the line.
2006-07-10 18:49:29
319.   ToyCannon
If you take away what Ethier has done against the Angels and all last week you have a 4th outfielder:)
Does mocking one's self come through as poorly as sarcasm in print form?
2006-07-10 18:51:40
320.   natepurcell
If you take away what Ethier did against the Angels and since June 17th, then the As got the better end of the deal.

oh wait, the As still probably wouldn't have gotten the better end of the deal thats how bad Bradley adn AP have been/injured.

2006-07-10 18:53:49
321.   Linkmeister
302 re: #1 in the non-SF specific portion of your list

There's nothing wrong with Yankee hatred. Mine carries back to 1941, and that was nine years before I was born.

2006-07-10 18:55:42
322.   Bob Timmermann
I will now bring a curse upon us all:

Bill Plaschke has not had a column in the LA Times since June 4.

2006-07-10 18:55:53
323.   Uncle Miltie
I'd love to see K Loft in the home run contest. He'd probably strain his ribs trying to hit home runs.
2006-07-10 18:59:13
324.   dzzrtRatt
319, 320...ah, the old "if you take away" gambit. We've seen that here before.

By the same logic, if you take away the 7th thru 9th innings, Nomar is only having a so-so season.

Just to counter: Ethier's games against the Angels were all fairly recent. They also have one of the best pitching staffs in the majors, far better than any of the staffs in the NL.

2006-07-10 19:01:40
325.   ToyCannon
Nate do you ever get wistfull when you see baseball analysts gush abot what a 21 year old just did in AA, and then think about what Greg Miller did at 19? Saddens me to think that my hoped for Koufax/Drysdale combo of EJ/Miller will probably never make it at any level.
2006-07-10 19:02:16
326.   capdodger
315 Having to ask is my pennance for leaving my computer for a week.
2006-07-10 19:03:17
327.   ToyCannon
Yes, hence the mocking comment since I was the idiot who started the thread weeks ago.
2006-07-10 19:04:32
328.   ToyCannon
Go back to your thread, you've got some action for once.
2006-07-10 19:05:33
329.   capdodger
318 I guess the question is: Is the line in (as in soccer) or out (as in basketball).
2006-07-10 19:08:14
330.   natepurcell

Simple answer: yes.

2006-07-10 19:12:35
331.   Steve
That's a fairly long "vacation."
2006-07-10 19:15:55
332.   Bob Timmermann
The line is "in" in tennis also.
2006-07-10 19:22:12
333.   sanchez101
325. Miller still has amazing potential in my eyes, his goundball ratio is amazing and his stuff is pretty good also. Im no expert, but after Elbert, Miller is our best pitching prospect IMO. Nate may disagree, if he does he's probably right.
2006-07-10 19:24:14
334.   sanchez101
... on a side note, i just took a shot and dedicated it to nate purcell. I figure he would take that as a compliment. none of my friends knew what i was talking about, but, hey, who cares?
2006-07-10 19:25:36
335.   sanchez101
also, I hate, I mean hate as in I would kick him in the balls if I ever saw him, Joe Morgan.
2006-07-10 19:26:09
336.   Sam DC
Marty -- any comment on 322, 331?
2006-07-10 19:30:41
337.   sanchez101

Thats not a curse, thats a blessing ...

one day I picture Matt Kemp and Andy LaRoche in this homerun contset ...

2006-07-10 19:40:02
338.   ToyCannon
But it will be JtD who will win it in someone else's uniform.
2006-07-10 19:45:14
339.   sanchez101
338. hey man, dont say that
2006-07-10 19:46:10
340.   Vishal
hey, i have no sound.. did ryan howard hit the "hit it here" sign with the clinching shot?
2006-07-10 19:48:36
341.   Andrew Shimmin
340- Yes. It's a little embarrassing to know the answer to that question, but I can't keep silent.
2006-07-10 19:50:11
342.   Sam DC
Home Run Derby post-mortem chat should move over here because really no comment should follow number 182 at Bob's place.
2006-07-10 19:50:42
343.   Vishal
[341] ah, i thought so! thanks. ryan howard is simply awesome. i wanted him or cabrera to win it.
2006-07-10 19:51:08
344.   Bob Timmermann
Yes he did.
2006-07-10 19:54:09
345.   Sam DC
342 Too late for that.
2006-07-10 19:56:24
346.   D4P
I didn't watch the Derby. Was Brazoban pitching to Howard...?
2006-07-10 19:57:19
347.   Bob Timmermann
The Home Run Derby is as exciting as the NBA 3-point shooting contest.

Which means it isn't.

2006-07-10 19:58:01
348.   Vishal
[342] it was comment 168 that was the uh, water mark for me.
2006-07-10 20:02:32
349.   Bob Timmermann
Comment 168 was by the Griddle's World Cup contest winner! He can say anything he wants to about Italy! He was the only guy who picked them to win.
2006-07-10 20:04:36
350.   thinkingblue
is there some sort of rule that says he has to have 60 right now?

No, but there also isn't a rule that says that you have to hit above the Mendoza line to play.

My point is, he has not been very efficient with runners on base, and it shows when he only has 50 RBIs batting 4th.

Regfairfield, could you find some stat to show how Drew does with runners on base, and compare efficiency with other players?

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-07-10 20:05:16
351.   thinkingblue
I called it, Howard won!
2006-07-10 20:08:08
352.   underdog
346 No, but Lo Duca was pitching to runner up David Wright. He was lobbing nice softballs so well that Chris Berman actually said something like, "I bet runners will run on Lo Duca after seeing these throws." All of a sudden?
(I still like Lo Duca, however.)
Howard's "pitcher" was his bullpen coach. I can't believe I watched this thing. Shows you how much I'm procrastinating about work this evening.
2006-07-10 20:09:10
353.   thinkingblue
1. Paul DePodesta's decision to retain Jim Tracy for 2005 season
2. Choosing Dreifort instead of the more proven Chan Ho Park (assuming that 1 of them had to be signed to a long-term deal)
3. Releasing HSC for nothing
4. Giving up on Seo way too early
5. (I can't think of any more...) :)

Ok, so you don't think letting Mike go to the angels, or trading Pedro, was worse than what you suggested?

Since when was Hee Seop Choi worth anything? At this point, he'd be a "player to be named later."

And Seo? LOL

2006-07-10 20:12:29
354.   Sam DC
Meanwhile, Nationals fans are busy marvelling at the fact that Ramon Ortiz appears more valuable in trade than Livan Hernandez.

The other hot topic -- can the Nationals catch Pittsburgh and KC for the #1 pick, and who's out there if they can?

God bless the All Star Break.

2006-07-10 20:12:49
355.   thinkingblue
But it will be JtD who will win it in someone else's uniform.

But that may be the only time JtD actually shows off his "light tower power."

2006-07-10 20:15:52
356.   natepurcell
updating my dewitt tracker.

in his last 84ABS

286/427/607 8hr 19bb 15k

Dewitt has been a pretty weird hitter this whole year, bouncing back between high contact/high average hitter to a patience/power hitter to a crap hitter. Hopefully he can find a happy medium by the end of the year.

2006-07-10 20:17:57
357.   Sam DC
From Deadspin's list of proposed questions for the Bud Selig chat tomorrow afternoon:

"Joe Mikulik as manager of the Pirates. An idea whose time has come?"

2006-07-10 20:21:01
358.   Jon Weisman
316 - I'm sorry for misstating your position and for the misunderstanding. Thanks for your response, Canuck.

353 - Clearly you didn't see the "Korean-related" part. Anyway, we'll call that Coach's post that started it all a joke that didn't translate...

2006-07-10 20:26:55
359.   Uncle Miltie
347- which still makes it more exciting than the world cup :)
2006-07-10 20:27:44
360.   StolenMonkey86
320 - If you take what Ethier has done against the Angels and consider that he would play 13 more games against them as a division rival, it hurts that more for the A's. It will also hurt when Milton Bradley punches them in the face.
2006-07-10 20:33:38
361.   OaklandAs
Drew's splits:
Bases Empty: .288 AVG/.361 OBP/.538 SLG , 132 AB (7 RBI)
Runners On: .287 AVG/.393 OBP/.413 SLG, 143 AB (43 RBI)

Nomar's splits:
Bases Empty: .363 AVG/.428 OBP/.621 SLG, 124 AB, (7 RBI)
Runners On: .354 AVG/.424 OBP/.542 SLG, 144 AB (46 RBI)

2006-07-10 20:41:50
362.   thinkingblue

And to no surprise, Drew is at his best leading off an inning.

2006-07-10 20:44:45
363.   Marty
336 Sam, no. I'm thinking it's all vacation coincidence. TJ's off for a month also. I've heard of no changes in the toy department over here.
2006-07-10 20:47:52
364.   Steve

"I will not shoot the messenger"
"I will not shoot the messenger"
"I will not shoot the messenger"


2006-07-10 20:50:06
365.   JoeyP
Drew is at his best leading off an inning.

As is Nomar, if you are consistent in your logic.

2006-07-10 20:50:07
366.   Bob Timmermann
I would think that the Winter Olympics messed up vacation schedules since a lot of sports writers take February off because nothing goes on then.

Then UCLA made a long run in the NCAA tournament, the Clippers and Lakers and Ducks were all in the playoffs for a while.

I know that my brother Tom has a ton of vacation coming to him from the World Cup because he was pretty much working every day for two months.

2006-07-10 20:52:41
367.   D4P
Is it worth pointing out that Nomar usually has Drew "protecting" him in the lineup, while Drew has guys like Lucille II behind him?
2006-07-10 20:55:18
368.   das411
Hey Steve!

Hey Nate, Andrew, and the rest of the DRays watchers!

2006-07-10 20:59:05
369.   Steve
Isn't the point that Jimmy Rollins is capable of having 48 doubles, 16 homeruns, and still sucking?
2006-07-10 20:59:17
370.   JoeyP
367. I agree. Drew hit for more power last year, but he also had Kent behind him, meaning he wouldnt get pitched around so much, would see more strikes, and would be able to hammer the ball.

Now, when guys reach base, Drew gets pitched around since the banjos are hitting behind him. Hence a reason why his SLG'ing is lower with men on base. He sees fewer strikes to hit in those situations. Thus higher OBP (more walks), but less extra base hits (SLG).

2006-07-10 21:02:24
371.   King of the Hobos
"Baseball's Secret Formula" is starting on The Science Channel. Not really sure what to expect, but Bill James seems to be an important focus.

2006-07-10 21:02:47
372.   Brendan
If I had a wish I would wish that the Coliseum Commission/City Council had allowed Dodger Stadium to be considered for an NFL franchise. That franchise would have been owned by the O'Malley's and the money from the NFL team(NFL is an ATM machine) would have allowed O'Malley to keep the Dodgers and L.A. would now have a football team. I miss the O'Malley's and I miss the Rams.
2006-07-10 21:14:03
373.   D4P
Darn, I don't get that channel.
2006-07-10 21:32:21
374.   Daniel Zappala
I've been out all day, but ... the one thing I would change in Dodger history is that Reggie Jackson would have been called out for sticking out his hip to break up the double play in Game 4 of the 1978 World Series. It would have become as infamous a play as Jeter's interference years later, and he would never live it down. The Dodgers would have gone up 3-1 and won the series handily.

This is the first year I remember being invested so heavily in the Dodgers, and I can still see the play in my mind. I still can't believe that play was allowed to stand.

2006-07-10 21:39:02
375.   Bob Timmermann

Well to be accurate, Reggie Jackson already was out. Lou Piniella should have been called out as he was the batter.

2006-07-10 21:44:03
376.   Bob Timmermann
And yes, I am no fun.
2006-07-10 21:45:13
377.   D4P
If there is joy, Bob will kill it.
2006-07-10 21:49:11
378.   Bob Timmermann
I prefer to think of myself as more of a buzzkill.
2006-07-10 21:51:24
379.   D4P
Seems like it should either be:

1. "killjoy" and "killbuzz", or
2. "joykill" and "buzzkill,", not
3. "killjoy" and "buzzkill" nor
4. "joykill" and "killbuzz."

2006-07-10 21:51:43
380.   DaveP
371 - I tuned in late, but Bill James just gave his all-time best at each position:

Bill James All-Time Team
C: Yogi Bera (maybe Josh Gibson, but not enough data to evaluate properly)
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Joe Morgan
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Honus Wagner
LF: Ted Williams
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Babe Ruth

SP: Roger Clemens

2006-07-10 21:54:04
381.   Bluebleeder87
Joe Morgan & Mike Schmidt suprised me a bit. The other ones are almost no brainers no?
2006-07-10 21:54:20
382.   dzzrtRatt
327 D'oh! My apologies. I missed the meaning of Mr. Smiley Face. I'm a little autistic when it comes to reading emoticoms. They all look like this to me:


2006-07-10 21:54:27
383.   Bluebleeder87
no love for catchers?
2006-07-10 21:55:22
384.   Bob Timmermann
I'm amazed they could get Bill James to explain all this in a polite and understanding way. He can be a bit grouchy and somewhat shy.
2006-07-10 21:57:43
385.   D4P
Do his all-time best evaluations consider only offense, or defense as well?
2006-07-10 21:58:35
386.   D4P
somewhat shy

What? A shy baseball stat geek? Now I've seen it all...

2006-07-10 21:59:03
387.   Bob Timmermann
I haven't got to the end, but I imagine that James uses Win Shares so that would use both offense and defense.
2006-07-10 21:59:58
388.   Bob Timmermann

Trust me there are some who are not shy at all.

2006-07-10 22:01:57
389.   Bob Timmermann
The Discovery Channel people insist on using the word "sabermetricist" instead of "sabermetrician".

Time for quixotic battle #358

2006-07-10 22:04:01
390.   D4P
Is that "say-burr-met-rick-ist" or "say-burr-met-riss-ist"?
2006-07-10 22:04:43
391.   Bob Timmermann
The latter.
2006-07-10 22:07:03
392.   D4P
How many of the first 357 battles quixotic did you win?
2006-07-10 22:07:38
393.   Daniel Zappala
375 OK, Bob -- you know what I meant! You have to understand, I was just a kid and it felt terrible to realize for the first time that injustice existed in the world.
2006-07-10 22:08:03
394.   Bob Timmermann
In one sequence, there is a demonstration of the three types of pitchers:
1) starters - Curt Schilling is shown
2) closers - Eric Gagne is shown
3) middle reliever - Doug Creek!
2006-07-10 22:08:40
395.   King of the Hobos
The program was pretty much what I expected and didn't really provide anything special. The little commentaries were interesting (James, Schwarz, Alderson, Dewon and his BIS cohorts, Francona, Piazza, Varitek, and Mirabelli all had something to say), and we got to see the inner working of BIS, but most of the information provided is well known information that's easily accessible.
2006-07-10 22:08:48
396.   Uncle Miltie
Didn't Joe Morgan and Bill James get into a little verbal dispute? I'm pretty sure it was James. Whoever it was, they called Morgan a hilarious insulting name (and it wasn't calling him a "Joe Morgan").
2006-07-10 22:10:38
397.   Bluebleeder87

he sugar coated it alittle, But the last comment he made me think that he thinks he's way is the best way. I could be wrong though.JMO.

2006-07-10 22:11:16
398.   Bob Timmermann

However, I think the show was aimed at an audience that didn't include me.

Did anybody see this when it was on?

2006-07-10 22:29:14
399.   thinkingblue

Well, Drew should have Kent behind him most of the second half, so we'll see.

2006-07-10 22:41:13
400.   Bluebleeder87
I'm just a stupid fan, but any of you think incentives will be a way of the future? I dought it hu? greedy players & agents won't allow it.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2006-07-10 23:16:35
401.   Jon Weisman
Are we really complaining about a .400 OBP with runners on? Are we really complaining about a .900 OPS leading off an inning?

Is our glass that full?

2006-07-10 23:32:54
402.   Eric L
309 Hitting the way back machine..

Green OPSed .815 and .811 his last two years in LA. Drew is OPSing .851 this year.

Now I know that it isn't significantly better, but Drew is outperforming the injured Green seasons.

2006-07-10 23:34:04
403.   Eric L
402 Heck, just for fun..

I should add that Drew is outperforming Green this year and Green hits in a better run scoring environment than Drew.

2006-07-10 23:40:20
404.   ToyCannon
Looked to me like they were complaining about a 413 slug% with runners on base and I sure don't see how 413 and 393 add up to 900.

The Baez inherited runners arguement seems empty. Without knowing how many outs and where the runners were for each situation the final premise of one allowing more inherited runners to score means nothing. Context is everything in that discussion.

2006-07-10 23:46:32
405.   ToyCannon
Yes, but I didn't say JD was doing this all season. Seems to me since the Colorado injury his power and plate selection skills have taken a significant downturn. His at bats since then is what reminds me of those Green years. If he does have a lingering shoulder injury then by the end of the year he might approach those Green numbers.
I haven't seen enough of JD over the years to know if he goes through power slumps like this all the time or if this is an injury related power slump. Either way he better come out of it because a slap hitting JD will not get it done when he's the main power source for the team.
2006-07-11 01:37:07
406.   JoeyP
Drew did have a down June...286/.354/.414 in 70abs.

But his first 30abs in July have been better: .333/.429/.500

2006-07-11 02:49:00
407.   Andrew Shimmin
Caught the replay of the Basball Alchemy show. Bill James uses an HP laptop. I used to have a Compaq laptop, and such is my hatred for that piece of garbage (I ended up having to decapitate it, and hook it in to a monitor because of an engineered obsolescence design flaw) that I immediately suspct anyone who gives those highwaymen any of their money of plotting against me, personally.

Also, the bit at the very end about how James's approach is no better than any other, just different, rings a little hollow. If it's no better, at all, why bother?

2006-07-11 05:50:41
408.   scareduck
407 - if you use the MacBook Pro, you will have no hate. A little heat, maybe, but no hate.
2006-07-11 06:48:58
409.   Sam DC
Fundraiser Continues

Lurker Day

If you're just jumping into the thread, see comment 6 and Jon's comments at the top of the post for details on a small fundraising push I'm trolling the thread with. I'll have an update later -- bottom line, huge success so far.

I expect most folks who are able and who are interested in doing so have already taken the plunge. But I did want to make a special plea to to the many folks who regularly read the site but elect not to comment. We learned on Delurker Day(or was it Unlurker Day?), there's a bunch of you!

A few folks have offered that they enjoy reading but don't comment because they don't really feel they have much to add or contribute. Now, for one thing, that's hogwash; virtually every comment containing such sentiments has also included some engaging or thoughtful insight, story, or rant as well. And heck, I spend like one of out of every three comments bragging about my kids. For all his "SABR-this" and "Remember the Superbas" that, Bob posts pictures of his cat!

Anyhow, that said, I'll just toss out this thought: If you choose right now not to join the DT conversation, another way to support the site is by making a small (or, you know, if you want, big) contribution to the fundraising effort. (PayPal button at right.)

As always, of course many people will have many good reasons why this doesn't make sense for them. Totally understood (and as his comments in yesterday's thread make clear, by Jon more than anyone).


2006-07-11 07:07:21
410.   Jon Weisman
Toy, I am concerned about J.D.'s home run drop, despite the other strengths. Just think he was getting put down a little too much in some ways.

I will say that Drew unleashed a nice throw home over the weekend that encouraged me. I didn't think he had it in him this year.

2006-07-11 07:07:41
411.   Suffering Bruin
Before I get into this, special citation to Greg Brock for manning the ABI club over at the Griddle during my absence. We failed but we went down swinging...

409 Well, I'm off to Tennessee (because it's July... wouldn't you want to be in Tennessee?) so I'll act on how much this site means to me when I get back. A deep tip of the cap to Sam for coming up with an idea that I should've thought of christ knows how many months ago.

Is it too late to play this thread? 'Cause I got a few things to say, just a few but Jon's asking for just the one thing, right? So here goes...

1. O'Malley wins four state lotteries and tells Fox to take a damn hike.

Pedro, Piazza and the close calls hurt but Fox buying the Dodgers is like... you know what? I'm off to Tennessee in July so I don't have the analogy. You guys got the talent--you think of the analogy!

It hurt and I'm glad they're sort of gone.

2006-07-11 07:09:18
412.   Suffering Bruin
410 It's a rightfielder playing for the Dodgers, Jon. I expect to hear about Drew's labrum any day know.


I'm sorry. I don't mean to be pessimistic but I don't know if you heard that I'm off to Tennessee and it's July...

2006-07-11 07:11:02
413.   Blu2
I have made a lot of posts here lately and I apologise for that and promise to stop. I feel I must make this one last post by way of apology to Drew. I still don't like him because he never lives up to my expectations for a season. The ability is there but he cannot hold it together for 162 games. There are many players in the Majors with far less ability. If one pf them hits .290 with 25 HRs and 80 RBIs, we say, "Nice year." We recognize and concede that is all that player is capable of doing and we're happy with his output. The problem with Drew is our excessive expectations. His agent, the evil Scot Boras, has convinced us, or more meaningfully, the GMs, that Drew is capable of .325, 35 HRs, 125 RBIs, and should be paid accordingly. Fine except that he, like most of us mortals, is unable to reach his full potential, although I'm sure he does the best he can. It leaves a bitter taste in some of our mouths when it happens. If we could change our perception of Drew to one with a more pedestrian potential (and a more pedestrian salary, say $7 to $9 million), we would consider ourselves well paid when he hits .280 to .290, 25 HRs, 90 RBIs. Maybe I shouldn't say I don't like him, I don't even know him. But I should sympathize with him more, if for no other reason than I have many of the same faults and failures.
2006-07-11 07:28:44
414.   Jon Weisman
413 - That was a nice post. The only thing I'd add is, I believe someone showed earlier that almost everyone ahead of Drew in production is either getting paid more, or not free-agent eligible yet.

Drew is performing a little below my expectations are hopes, but he's still an unmistakable asset to this team.

2006-07-11 08:12:41
415.   Sushirabbit
412 Hey! What's wrong with Tennessee?! :-)
Oh, the July part... If you're in Nashville, I'm extending an open invite to my house to enjoy extra innings... I'm sure there are better sports bars, but hey Southern Hospitality prevails. Of course, I really have no idea what games I will be able to get.

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