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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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The Aybar-for-Izturis Trade
2006-07-29 09:30
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Okay, something's nagging at me a little bit about Friday's trade. And it's not the news that the Dodgers are paying the remainder of Danys Baez's contract, though I suppose that's kind of annoying.

In Willy Aybar, the Dodgers got rid of a player who displayed a nice grasp of the strike zone (he walked about once every six at-bats, with fewer strikeouts than walks) and an excellent doubles rate (20 doubles in his first 214 major-league at-bats, projecting to roughly 50 for a full season) for an older player (how much older, we're not exactly sure) whose principal advantage, at least for now, is home run power. There are mixed reports on both players' defense.

It's not that Wilson Betemit's nine home runs in 199 at-bats this season don't matter to me, but do they outweigh the points against him?

I'm splitting hairs a little bit. The trade succeeds in boosting the Dodgers' thin hopes for this year without sacrificing the future in any significant way - in fact, it may help the future as well. The worst possibility is that in a few years, we learn that Aybar is the superior talent.

But I woke up this morning feeling a little sad about how much the Dodgers focused on what Aybar lacked instead of what he offered.

A couple days ago, when I pointed out the Baseball Prospectus study that Alfonso Soriano and Carlos Lee each represented just a one-win improvement for the remainder of the season if either replaced Kenny Lofton, I have to admit that it puzzled me. You can imagine Soriano coming in here and hitting a three-run homer that gives the Dodgers a victory - is the idea that putting that aside, Soriano and Lofton would be equal?

And then you think about it. Baseball's a tradeoff. On another hypothetical night, Soriano would go 0 for 4 when Lofton might get two hits and stolen base. It goes back and forth like that over 60 games, and somehow the differences minimize. Soriano's still better, but he's not better every game.

So I think about how Aybar was benched so that Cesar Izturis could play. Izturis is without a doubt the more spectacular fielder. But in many games, Aybar would make all the plays at third base that Izturis would make. And yes, in a few games, Aybar would make more plays than Izturis, because Izturis isn't perfect.

In the end, Izturis comes out ahead. But when you have the reptuation of being a better fielder, people tend to focus on the plays you make and forgive the plays you don't. For Aybar, it was the opposite. The differences get blown out of proportion - just like the differences between Soriano and Lofton, which is why you don't break First Prospect Bank to get Soriano.

Meanwhile, at his worst, Aybar hit home runs more often than Izturis, who celebrates them like birthdays. In fact, there isn't a single aspect of using the bat in which Aybar, at age 23, isn't already superior to the 26-year-old Izturis - and that factors in Aybar's summer slump. You don't know offensive slumps until you've seen Izturis.

Again, I get what Friday's trade was about. It was an attempt to balance prayers for 2006 with hopes for the future. I'm not complaining about that.

But another underlying truth about the trade - unless other moves are made - is that it was a final exchange of Aybar for Izturis. Given that Izturis was contributing almost nothing toward the team's current hopes, and that he realistically has no future with the Dodgers - as soon as Jeff Kent returns, Izturis is supposed to go to the bench if he hasn't already been traded - this is the trade that's bugging me.

And I don't even have the raging dislike for Izturis that some others have. I love his glove, and I'm dispassionately bored by his bat. He is who he is. A great-fielding No. 8 hitter. Just like the great-fielding 22-year-old the Dodgers have at AA Jacksonville, Chin-Lung Hu.

I don't know if Atlanta would have taken Izturis instead of Aybar, though it does appear that their primary goal was Baez and so the second player in the trade could have been either infielder. I also don't know if Izturis will yield a bigger prize in a few days or months. All I can say is that as I write this, I'd rather Aybar were still in the Dodger organization, for all his flaws, even if he were at AAA, than Izturis.

* * *

Update: James Loney has been recalled from Las Vegas, according to Inside the Dodgers. Techincally, Loney takes Aybar's spot. Betemit will be held off the active roster until Sunday, at which point another roster opening will have to be made available. Perhaps that will be Izturis? Or someone else whose time as a Dodger has expired?

Olmedo Saenz got hit by two pitches Friday - at least one painfully - so that could be a factor as well.

* * *

Today's Game

Comments (633)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-07-29 09:46:02
1.   StolenMonkey86
Loney got recalled, as announced by Inside the Dodgers
2006-07-29 09:49:40
2.   StolenMonkey86
I wonder what the lineup looks like today. I also wonder if Aybar and Baez got to Atlanta in time; that game starts in about 20 min!
2006-07-29 09:53:36
3.   overkill94
2 With Pete Orr starting at 3B for the Braves, I think it's safe to assume Aybar didn't make it in time :)
2006-07-29 09:55:04
4.   StolenMonkey86
I guess 11 1/2 hours in between games is kind of pushing it
2006-07-29 09:55:38
5.   overkill94
What seems intriguing about the Loney call-up is that it means that another transaction will have to take place tomorrow, which means either a DFA or a trade probably. Do we finally get the Izturis trade we've been hoping for? Cruz? Ledee? Lofton even? The next couple days should be very interesting.
2006-07-29 09:56:37
6.   StolenMonkey86
Hey, is Pete related to Kyle? Pete is from Richmond Hill, ON.
2006-07-29 09:57:35
7.   StolenMonkey86
5- that or that Nomar is going to the DL

Nice to see Loney back

2006-07-29 09:59:04
8.   overkill94
Oh man, I haven't watched The Three Stooges in ages, classic stuff.
2006-07-29 10:10:34
9.   StolenMonkey86
Prior to today's game, the Dodgers will recall James Loney from Triple-A Las Vegas. Loney was leading the Pacific Coast League with a .372 average, the sixth-highest mark in minor league baseball. While with the 51s, he played nine games in the outfield and 74 at first base. He's basically been getting some playing time at first, left and a little in right field, which is a good thing. With Nomar down for at least a couple more days, this gives us a first baseman/outfielder for now. Betemit will arrive later today and be activated tomorrow, when another move will have to be made to free up a roster spot.

So that's Nomar to the DL, or the dumping of Jose Cruz.

O'Connor is a lefty, so that makes me wonder if Loney still gets the start, as well as whether Repko gets the start in CF.

2006-07-29 10:14:27
10.   underdog
Glad to see Loney back too - I think it's smart anyway, with Nomar hurting (it doesn't sound like he's going on the DL - they said he'd definitely be back for the game in Cincy on Tuesday) and with Saenz hurting now too, they need 1b help. It could be for a couple of days, or someone else will indeed be going. If they trade Izturis though, doesn't that leave them kind of thin in the 2nd-ss-3rd positions?

About Aybar-Betemit, I pretty much said what I felt about it in last night's thread, but it does appear that the Dodgers were trading Baez to the Braves and the Braves required a utility infielder in return to replace him. I don't think the Dodgers were as down on Aybar as it may appear but they'd obviously soured on him as a starter a little.

I do think when you see Betemit play for LA you will see a better all around player than Aybar.

2006-07-29 10:15:53
11.   underdog
10 "...and the Braves required... to replace him" obviously refers to Betemit.

I need breakfast.

Wow, I can't believe it - the game is on Fox here in SF today. Not that they usually do well on Fox telecasts, but hope springs eternal.

2006-07-29 10:18:58
12.   MartinBillingsley31
All I can say is that as I write this, I'd rather Aybar were still in the Dodger organization, for all his flaws, even if he were at AAA, than Izturis.

Amen to that, jon.

Techincally, Loney takes Aybar's spot. Betemit will be held off the active roster until Sunday, at which point another roster opening will have to be made available. Perhaps that will be Izturis? Or someone else whose time as a Dodger has expired?

That's what i brought up at the end of the last thread.
I think izturis will be out the door to activate betemit, then loney sent down when kent returns (unless another position player is dealt with izturis).

What i would like to know is where does betemit fit in our long term plans:
2b?, what about kent/dewitt?
3b?, what about laroche?
ss?, what about furcal? (this is where i'd like betemit)
Maybe 3b the rest of this season, utility next season assuming kent 2b furcal ss laroche 3b, 2b in 2008 since kent will be gone, then ss in 2009 when furcal is gone and dewitt is ready for 2b.

2006-07-29 10:21:40
13.   overkill94
12 I have the same questions, but it's better to have excess talent than having to scrounge for players. I think it would be a waste to keep Betemit as a utility player, a trade seems the most likely possibility, hopefully it doesn't include Laroche unless it nets an impact pitcher.
2006-07-29 10:24:10
14.   dzzrtRatt
I figure Betemit and LaRoche will compete for the third base job, with the loser going the Dioner Navarro route. Since that's a decision for 2007, why worry? It's "a good problem to have," goes the cliche.
2006-07-29 10:24:43
15.   underdog
All good questions, and agree better to have too many options than not enough! And with minor leaguers, no matter how good they appear now, or what their raw talents are, there are no guarantees with any of them. Again, better to have options...

Also interesting to read the comments about the trade on the MLB Trade Rumors blog:
http://tinyurl.com/rlvm8

2006-07-29 10:25:26
16.   bhsportsguy
Betemit is probably a better bet to be used as trade material in the future.

Izzy is a shortstop masquerading in any other position he plays. And while his salary is in line for a defensive plus shortstop, there is no such thing as a defense first third basemen.

2006-07-29 10:26:00
17.   underdog
I still think Betemit is not here to take the third base job for the long run, but just for this season, with 2nd base being more of his long haul possibility - maybe DeWitt will have to compete with him for that.
2006-07-29 10:28:47
18.   bhsportsguy
Today's lineup

Furcal, SS
Repko, CF
Drew, RF
Saenz, 1B
Ethier, LF
Martin, C
Izturis, 3B
Martinez, 2B
Lowe, P

2006-07-29 10:31:13
19.   MartinBillingsley31
I look at it this way in the future:

Laroche > betemit at 3b
Kent then dewitt > betemit at 2b
Betemit > furcal at ss, plus you dump furcal's contract.

But right now this season anyone is better than izturis at 3b, therefore this season betemit is an upgrade no matter what.
But this season is over as far as i'm concerned.

2006-07-29 10:32:34
20.   blue22
If Betemit can play shortstop for LA, he distiguishes himself from Aybar. The fact that they either wouldn't let Aybar play short, or he flat out couldn't, limited his value to the organization, IMO.
2006-07-29 10:35:20
21.   Bluebleeder87
I'm hoping we dump Cruz Jr. or Maybe Carrara will be the odd man out (call up Alexander) I really doubt management will let Izzy go to triple-A (they love his glove) like somebody else mentioned maybe Nomar will go on the 15 day D.L. who knows.
2006-07-29 10:38:38
22.   StolenMonkey86
Ha! I knew it! So they said to Loney, "Congratulations, you got called up, but there's a lefty on the mound."
2006-07-29 10:42:19
23.   overkill94
Wow, Solomon Torres must still get nightmares from those days with the Giants. From Rotoworld:

Salomon Torres, who been mentioned in trade rumors with the Giants, doesn't want to go back to San Francisco.
"If I could beg, I would beg. Send me where you want, but not to San Francisco," he said. Torres added that he hated his last two years with the Giants, and he also doesn't want to again play for Felipe Alou, who managed him while with the Expos in 1997. "By far, that's the worst time I had in my career," Torres said. "It prompted my (temporary) retirement. He didn't treat me the way I felt he should have been treating me. ... He never went straight to me and told me what was going on, and I resent him for that."

2006-07-29 10:46:14
24.   Bluebleeder87
I do kind of wish Aybar was still here, but management didn't like his D. I wish they would have just thrown him out there & see what he had for about 2-4 weeks.
2006-07-29 10:48:00
25.   Bluebleeder87
he has nightmares of Piazza.
2006-07-29 10:53:38
26.   mountainmover
Statistics count for a lot, but they cannot measure many things. I liked Willy Aybar, but the past 2 Springs in Vero, I watched him closely and he has "hard hands." There's no stat for that, but day-in and day-out he struggles with defense. I think he'll end up in the AL and maybe be a nice DH. He can hit. That I know!
2006-07-29 10:53:58
27.   Giant Hater
Bout time Loney was callled up. No reason tp keep his hot bat down in the minors.
2006-07-29 10:55:36
28.   Bluebleeder87
27

he's only gonna be here for a little bit, unless Nomar will go on the D.L. or something.

2006-07-29 10:57:40
29.   underdog
I don't know if Betemit will be at his best defensively at SS, either. I think he could be the 2nd base starter candidate for years if Kent doesn't last that much longer, and if DeWitt doesn't work out. (Or one of them will ultimately be trade bait.) I also wouldn't, as tempting as it is, worry too much about what will happen when.... if "when" is 2007 and 8.

21 "I really doubt management will let Izzy go to triple-A (they love his glove)" -
I don't think Izturis can be sent down to AAA unless it's for an injury rehab, no? He's probably well out of options as a veteran.

Definitely will be an interesting couple more days. I just hope it's interesting because the Dodgers win more than anything else.

2006-07-29 10:59:17
30.   Giant Hater
I seem to get the feeling that there is an apparent lack of love for Loney, even with all that he has done in AAA the past couple of months.
2006-07-29 11:00:27
31.   Daniel Zappala
9 I think Jon would prefer that you post a link, rather than a lengthy verbatim copy from another blog. Pull out the one sentence you wanted to focus on, rather than quoting the whole thing. It's also a good idea to attribute the source. Anything under your name is supposed to come from you unless you have a citation for where you got it.
2006-07-29 11:01:03
32.   Marty
Jered Weaver up 2-1 in Boston in the 2nd. Man it would be nice to have THAT Weaver.
2006-07-29 11:04:05
33.   Marty
Weaver in some trouble in the 2nd. A double and a walk with one out.

Now first and third with two outs.

2006-07-29 11:07:28
34.   overkill94
I have a feeling Weaver's gonna get a rude awakening his 2nd time through the league. His deceptive delivery can only fool batters for so long.
2006-07-29 11:11:36
35.   chumsferd
With Loney being called up, I take this as a sign that either Tomato is hurt enough that he can't play or Izzy is gone. I hope the latter obviously.

One thing that I'm not sure has been mentioned is that by obtaining Betimit we block the Pads from getting him. I think they need a 3b as much as we did.

also, and this is pure speculation on my part, I wonder why izturis isn't mentioned in any possible deals to Toronto. He would be no worse offensively than Adams or McDonald and with GBers like Halladay, AJB, and Janssen, he would be a huge upgrade defensively.

2006-07-29 11:12:14
36.   Marty
Fox says Beckett has SWAGGER
2006-07-29 11:13:10
37.   gpellamjr
35 I've heard repeatedly people saying that Izzy would be a good fit in Toronto. But what would the Dodgers get in return?

Oh yeah, and I HATE FOX!!!

2006-07-29 11:14:29
38.   natepurcell
After sleeping on it, I still like the trade.
2006-07-29 11:15:29
39.   gpellamjr
38 Me, too. And I slept for, like, 9 hours last night.
2006-07-29 11:15:35
40.   overkill94
37 Alex Rios of course
2006-07-29 11:20:49
41.   MartinBillingsley31
2007, if we can trade furcal:
Martin c
Drew rf
Nomar 1b
Ethier lf
Kent 2b
Kemp cf
Laroche 3b
Betemit ss

Bench: Saenz, guzman, loney, repko, backup catcher, a cheap guy

Looks good to me.

Get some pitching with the money comin off the books.

2006-07-29 11:22:29
42.   JoeyP
But when you have the reptuation of being a better fielder, people tend to focus on the plays you make and forgive the plays you don't.

Exactly.
This trade would have been better if Izturis was going to Atlanta instead of Aybar. The Dodgers gave up a guy that knows the K zone, for a hacker. Hopefully the hacker is having a legit spike in HRs and can play 2b. If not, all this trade accomplished was taking away the dilemma of offering Baez arbitration.

2006-07-29 11:27:39
43.   Disabled List
For all the we-gotta-trade-Furcal talk in today's and last night's threads, it's worth mentioning that he is in the middle of a multi-year contract.

Now somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if he's traded, doesn't that mean that he can demand a trade from his new club at the end of the season? (Or does he have the right to opt out of his contract?) I imagine that would make him quite untradeable, or at least would give him serious veto power over any deal.

I doubt very much that Furcal gets dealt anywhere.

2006-07-29 11:33:59
44.   Gen3Blue
Another Gameday saturday because of f-----Fox. Sorry about the stutter.
Saying Betemit>Izturis would need a good bit of actual proving.
If we trade Iz, which isn't ness. bad, we don't need to undermine his value with venom. He is among the best D ss's available, should get a good player straight up.
In otherwords, I think it would be the height of stupidity to make a trade that undervalues him, just to save a few people irritation.
2006-07-29 11:35:16
45.   blue22
37 - I figure Toronto would prefer Lugo who brings more offense. Failing that, they could make a run at Izturis. They really need help defensively at short.

I'd take Jason Frasor back for Izzy. He's probably the best of the big-league ready pitchers they have.

2006-07-29 11:37:49
46.   blue22
Furcal for Tejada is an odd rumor, considering their salaries are so similar and Furcal is definitely a downgrade for Baltimore. They also already have Brian Roberts, who is every bit the leadoff hitter Furcal is.

I'd be afraid what the add-on's would be in such a trade. Baltimore would certainly want pitching with Furcal, or cash to supplement his salary (making Tejada's reasonable contract not so reasonable anymore).

2006-07-29 11:54:23
47.   natepurcell
Having Betemit and Loney in today's lineup would make this game more exciting.
2006-07-29 11:55:46
48.   overkill94
46 Is that an actual rumor? I mentioned it yesterday, but mostly as a joke (with Laroche included as well).
2006-07-29 11:58:22
49.   gpellamjr
One good trade and I'm hooked! What will Midas do next?
2006-07-29 12:04:03
50.   underdog
36 And Beckett's having (according to Fox) a "terrific season" - which I guess means you can have a terrific season with an ERA around 5 and give up 26 home runs.

I think Tejada rumors mostly center around the Astros and Angels right now. I wouldn't expect the Dodgers to be in on that action, most likely.

Btw, I wouldn't be averse to a Frasor for Izturis trade. Did we send them Frasor in the Jayson Werth trade or was thath another one?

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-07-29 12:13:04
51.   Daniel Zappala
Weaver just gave up 2 runs in the 5th to tie the score at 3. He walked off the mound very mad at himself, though one of the hits that scored was a cheap bloop. He got out of it decently considering the heart of the Sox lineup was up.

Figgins has 10 outfield putouts in 5 innings, easily on the way to breaking the record of 12.

2006-07-29 12:20:07
52.   adraymond
Is there any way we can trade for this Carlos Beltran character? He's pretty good.
2006-07-29 12:24:09
53.   Andrew Shimmin
So, Izzy for a middle reliever who turns twenty-nine the week after next? One who was worth Werth, a couple of years ago? Is that buying or selling?
2006-07-29 12:28:31
54.   popup
I doubt that the Braves wanted to take on the salary for Izturis. Aybar is at the major league minimum I assume.

If the Dodgers are paying for Baez, I for sure would have wanted a A or AA arm from Atlanta to be added to the deal that could project into the Dodger bullpen in the future.

Count me as one who likes Izzy at shortstop. The really bad move I think Ned made this past offseason was signing Furcal for 13 million. Izzy at 3 would leave at lot more room to pay for what the Dodgers have needed for the past few years: starting pitching.

Stan from Tacoma

2006-07-29 12:31:05
55.   dsfan
Betemit's not a full-how shortstop. No way, no how. No use dreaming on that one.
2006-07-29 12:34:20
56.   dsfan
Keep Izzy and started him at 2B unless you get something solid in return. He's your best 2B this year other than Kent, and Kent's durability is in obvious question. His market value should be greater in the offseason, when more teams are apt to be looking for SSs.
Izzy at 2B improves this pitching staff, which needs all the help it can get.
2006-07-29 12:34:59
57.   dsfan
55-

Full-time SS.

2006-07-29 12:35:07
58.   overkill94
a full-how?
2006-07-29 12:35:31
59.   thinkblue0
53-

who cares...it gets rid of the guy and gives us 3 mill for next year.

You know, this is one Ned trade I wasn't going to rail...then I read we're paying ALL of Baez's contract. Ugh. There's always some little detail that feels like we're getting backhanded.

2006-07-29 12:36:57
60.   dsfan
44-

Agree, but the mob has spoken.

2006-07-29 12:37:22
61.   thinkblue0
His market value should be greater in the offseason, when more teams are apt to be looking for SSs.

his market value is never going to go up. Izzy is Izzy...everyone knows what he brings. Might as well cash in and see if someone team is willing to give us ANYTHING back so we have his contract off the books.

2006-07-29 12:38:01
62.   MartinBillingsley31
full-how

What?

Izzy at 2B improves this pitching staff,

I don't subscribe to that philosophy, that defense helps pitching, and on top of that izturis can't hit the side of a barn.

Sorry for being straight forward but i've been waiting for izturis to get traded for many years, so many years that i can't remember how many years.

2006-07-29 12:40:05
63.   overkill94
I don't subscribe to that philosophy, that defense helps pitching

Tell that to Brandon Webb's ERA since they acquired Orlando Hudson's GG 2nd base glove

2006-07-29 12:41:06
64.   overkill94
I guess that second glove is a little redundant, how about GG-caliber play at 2B instead
2006-07-29 12:41:31
65.   MartinBillingsley31
his market value is never going to go up. Izzy is Izzy...everyone knows what he brings.

Exactly, i don't buy into veterans increasing their trade value, they are veterans you know what they have done in the past.
Prospects on the otherhand can increase their trade value.

2006-07-29 12:41:43
66.   overkill94
61 I don't think another million bucks or so is gonna kill us
2006-07-29 12:41:52
67.   natepurcell
I don't subscribe to that philosophy, that defense helps pitching,

eh.

2006-07-29 12:44:55
68.   MartinBillingsley31
If you need defense to help you then you might not be a very good pitcher.
Meaning if you need "cesar i'm god on defense izturis" instead of a regular defensive shortstop then you might not be a very good pitcher.
2006-07-29 12:46:43
69.   thinkblue0
Tell that to Brandon Webb's ERA since they acquired Orlando Hudson's GG 2nd base glove

Are there any numbers you can show us that say Orlando Hudson is responsible for Webb's low ERA?

I don't think another million bucks or so is gonna kill us

Im talking about next year. If we're paying this guy 3 mill next year to be a utility player then something is wrong. Would we be saying we should keep Royce Clayton for 3 mill next year? No...and they're essentially the same player.

2006-07-29 12:47:05
70.   Andrew Shimmin
Agree, but the mob has spoken.

It's a shame those undesirables aren't as intellectually honest as you and I are, isn't it?

2006-07-29 12:55:31
71.   Bluebleeder87
So is Lowe gonna finally win a game?
2006-07-29 12:56:43
72.   overkill94
69 Oops, I meant to reference 59 not 61

There isn't any true evidence that Hudson has helped, but in the fantasy world Webb was a breakout candidate due to the fact that an improved defensive infield would be huge for his extreme groundball tendencies. I'm not saying great infield defense will help all pitchers that much, but it only makes sense that having a fielder who gets to more balls - whether it be better outfielders for a flyball pitcher or better infielders for a sinkerballer - will be beneficial to the starting pitcher.

2006-07-29 13:02:14
73.   Gen3Blue
People are worrying about Izruris' contract when we are virtually paying the whole of Perez's and Baez to make sure they play anywhere but Dodger Stadium.
2006-07-29 13:02:51
74.   Erik Siegrist
Re: Brandon Webb

His great year is due to a slashed walk rate mostly (1.57 BB/9, easily the best of his career so far) -- his OAV is .254, right in line with 2005 (.265) and 2004 (.248).

Of course you could make the argument that having O-Dawg behind him gives him more confidence to simply pound the strike zone and let the batter try to hit it...

2006-07-29 13:03:31
75.   thinkblue0
There isn't any true evidence that Hudson has helped, but in the fantasy world Webb was a breakout candidate due to the fact that an improved defensive infield would be huge for his extreme groundball tendencies.

the problem I have is that it was phrased as if Hudson is responsible for Webb's success. Does he help? Sure. But is it to a degree that's even noticeable? probably not.

Webb's struck out 121 batters this year. Meanwhile he's only walked 28 and only given up 11 HR. That doesn't have much to do with Orlando Hudson.

2006-07-29 13:03:46
76.   Uncle Miltie
Are there any numbers you can show us that say Orlando Hudson is responsible for Webb's low ERA?
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but Hudson is an amazing defender. He is God-like with the glove. He is so far ahead of other players defensively at his position that they should just hand him the gold glove if he plays 120 games.

I hope that Loney being called up means that he won't be traded.

Nate can you please kidnap Greg Miller and Delwyn Young? I don't want them being traded for Greg Maddux!

2006-07-29 13:04:03
77.   Bluebleeder87
I'm wondering if Ned is still interested in Maddux.
2006-07-29 13:05:20
78.   overkill94
Today's Chad Billingsley's 22nd birthday...unless it's actually in November ;)
2006-07-29 13:06:07
79.   thinkblue0
People are worrying about Izruris' contract when we are virtually paying the whole of Perez's and Baez to make sure they play anywhere but Dodger Stadium.

how does this somehow justify paying Izturis?

We weren't going to ditch Odalis no matter what without paying for some of his deal.

As far as Baez, I can't believe we're paying it but at least it's only for this year.

Meanwhile, Izturis is on the hook for 3 mill next year. For the life of me I can't see why this guy gets such a pass around here. He's a utility infielder/defensive replacement. That's what he is. Yet everyone seems to think he's so valuable. Trade him, and use that 3 mill towards Zito or Schmidt.

2006-07-29 13:06:21
80.   dzzrtRatt
"If we trade Iz, which isn't ness. bad, we don't need to undermine his value with venom."

There are possibly times when the DT commenting community could have an influence on front-office thinking. But the crediblity of commments laced with venom is automatically destroyed, regardless of their merits.

Especially when what is supposed to be logic is laced with unprovable biases of its own. The best/worst example is the idea that good defense doesn't help pitching, e.g. has no effect on runs scored by the opposition. Someone who does baseball for a living immediately moves you to the children's table when you say things like that, and everything good you bring to the discussion will be ignored.

From listening to everyone here, the more accurate statement is: "No statistical model yet exists to reliably quantify the impact of good defense. So we don't know."

The fact that you can't measure it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It means you need a new instrument of measurement.

2006-07-29 13:06:22
81.   confucius
68 Well the dodgers have a roster full of bad pitchers so he must be right up their alley. Besides, good defense helps all pitchers. No one is going to strike out all 27. It's just hard to determine how much offense to sacrifice for defense at various positions. You can not honestly think that defense does not matter.
2006-07-29 13:10:32
82.   Bluebleeder87
79

no disrespect but we're paying a guy 13,000,000.00 & he seems totally cluess to what his job is!. You know the guy that swings for the fences & makes a ton of errors.

2006-07-29 13:11:31
83.   Bluebleeder87
I'm pretty sure Furcal will get better Hitting wise, but get use to bone head diffence.
2006-07-29 13:12:19
84.   Gen3Blue
79 Tryin to see your point of view. But while our current mix of vets and expected arrivals make him a utility player, on many teams with moderate payroll he would be a full time SS easily valued at 3mil. His trade value should be treated accordingly. And among the five to ten big payroll teams 3 mil is treated like peanuts.
At least on our payroll.
2006-07-29 13:12:43
85.   Bluebleeder87
Lowe seems to be keeping the ball down so far.
2006-07-29 13:14:29
86.   MartinBillingsley31
80

That's not what i meant.
I think i've made myself clear about what i think of defense many times here, and i don't think defense is irrelevant as you put it.

2006-07-29 13:14:46
87.   regfairfield
How on Earth do you think that defense doesn't help pitching?

Better defense = more balls caught = less hits = lower ERA.

2006-07-29 13:15:16
88.   Bluebleeder87
Steve "spsycho" Lyons finally cut the mollet.
2006-07-29 13:15:25
89.   Jon Weisman
80 - Yes.
2006-07-29 13:16:44
90.   StolenMonkey86
62 - I don't subscribe to that philosophy, that defense helps pitching

Really? So did the Tigers staff's K-rate, did they spend the offseason getting the best shamrocks and rabbit's feet money can buy?

2006-07-29 13:16:58
91.   Bluebleeder87
Martin made that close, Lowe is daddy long legs (like Vinnie says)
2006-07-29 13:18:42
92.   confucius
I was hoping Lopez stealing second meant a walk to Nick Johnson but I guess not.
2006-07-29 13:19:09
93.   overkill94
News flash, Lowe still stinks
2006-07-29 13:20:22
94.   Bluebleeder87
80

I'm guilty of being a bad commenter but it's only because I'm very passionate (sp?) I totally see & respect you're point.

2006-07-29 13:21:37
95.   StolenMonkey86
93 - it's still July
2006-07-29 13:21:37
96.   thinkblue0
Tryin to see your point of view. But while our current mix of vets and expected arrivals make him a utility player, on many teams with moderate payroll he would be a full time SS easily valued at 3mil.

we're not many teams with a moderate payroll. There is no place for him now with Betemit here.

His trade value should be treated accordingly.

how much trade value is there for a guy who can't hit? Honestly, I disagree with you because I don't think he'd start on most teams. His trade value lies in simply getting his contract off the books. He has no place here, no need to keep him. Trade him for a mid level prospect.

I mean, how is Izturis any different from JT Snow? Neither can hit, both can field great. Yet JT Snow is a defensive replacement but everyone around here thinks Izturis is the cat's meow. Classic example of fans over-valuing their own players.

2006-07-29 13:21:40
97.   overkill94
Seo's throwing more batting practice today, 2 homers given up in the 1st inning.
2006-07-29 13:22:55
98.   Bluebleeder87
well there goes my argument. :o)
2006-07-29 13:23:10
99.   natepurcell
Upon hearing his buddy was coming over, Furcal hits one really far in excitement.
2006-07-29 13:23:11
100.   overkill94
Betemit's is still having a presence on the Dodger offense
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-07-29 13:23:26
101.   overkill94
don't need that "is"
2006-07-29 13:23:34
102.   StolenMonkey86
Furcal will not be outdone at the plate by Izturis
2006-07-29 13:24:44
103.   confucius
thinkblue0, I agree with the points you make about Izturis. I do not however, think people around here give him a free pass or think that he is the cats meow.
2006-07-29 13:25:10
104.   StolenMonkey86
coaching visit already?
2006-07-29 13:25:58
105.   regfairfield
Furcal is almost back up to his career numbers. Now he just has to start catching the ball.
2006-07-29 13:26:34
106.   Bluebleeder87
I mean, how is Izturis any different from JT Snow? Neither can hit, both can field great. Yet JT Snow is a defensive replacement but everyone around here thinks Izturis is the cat's meow. Classic example of fans over-valuing their own players.

I actually don't see you're point here because Izzy plays a premium position were as J.T. plays first base, again I don't see you're point.

2006-07-29 13:26:50
107.   bluetahoe
Lowe better get it in gear.....EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY!
2006-07-29 13:28:28
108.   Gen3Blue
A surprise positive, in the last week, after rants against Iz or Furc, they have tended to have good offensive games.
2006-07-29 13:28:45
109.   StolenMonkey86
Repko's still got the speed
2006-07-29 13:29:45
110.   thinkblue0
106-

please explain to me how SS is more "premium" than first base.

2006-07-29 13:30:30
111.   StolenMonkey86
Wow, he walked Saenz
2006-07-29 13:31:11
112.   trainwreck
Happy Birthday Billingsley!
2006-07-29 13:32:28
113.   regfairfield
110 Because not many people can play good defense at shortstop, while pretty much anyone can play good defense at first. That's why there's not nearly as many good hitting shortstops. Very few people can play the position.
2006-07-29 13:32:37
114.   gpellamjr
107 It seems that as soon as you decided you don't take baseball as seriously as you used to, you started hanging out with us a lot more. What does that say about us?
2006-07-29 13:32:38
115.   natepurcell
I thought Ethier got all of that. Thanks for tricking me Andre.
2006-07-29 13:32:44
116.   overkill94
110 Are you serious?
2006-07-29 13:33:16
117.   Bluebleeder87
106

well if Furcal could aim the ball better Nomar wouldn't have to save him have the time, I don't consider 1st & SS the same type postion sorry.

2006-07-29 13:33:35
118.   overkill94
Booyah Martin!
2006-07-29 13:33:38
119.   trainwreck
Izzy is a fine player to have if you surround him with a bunch of hitters. We got Furcal who is a better all around player so we really do not need Izturis. Izturis should be playing SS, that is where his value is. Izturis is valuable so we should get a second tier prospect for him.
2006-07-29 13:33:44
120.   Bluebleeder87
my boy Martin!!! woo!!!!!!
2006-07-29 13:34:00
121.   overkill94
It's so fun to see offense again
2006-07-29 13:34:03
122.   natepurcell
Okay, Martin didn't trick me. Thanks Russ!

and thank you Dodgers for playing firestorm...(ugh)

2006-07-29 13:34:38
123.   Gen3Blue
yes run scoring play!
2006-07-29 13:34:44
124.   overkill94
Why was Soriano playing so deep with Izturis up?
2006-07-29 13:35:19
125.   natepurcell
wait what was that song called? Sandfire? Firesand? Stormriders? I forgot.
2006-07-29 13:35:38
126.   gpellamjr
124 Because he's about to be traded.
2006-07-29 13:35:46
127.   thinkblue0
Because not many people can play good defense at shortstop, while pretty much anyone can play good defense at first.

I don't buy that you can just throw anyone at first base.

I still haven't seen one person successfully justify keeping Izturis.

There's no place for him on this team
He's a utility infielders making 3 mill
He can't hit water if he jumped out of a boat.

If you guys are dying to have someone that can't hit but is great defensively then we might as well just bring up Hu...at least he only costs the league minimum.

2006-07-29 13:35:46
128.   Greg Brock
My word, the thought of Russ behind the dish for the next six years makes me happy. Very happy.
2006-07-29 13:36:24
129.   MartinBillingsley31
Booyah Martin!

BOOYAH indeed.

You said it.

2006-07-29 13:37:16
130.   thinkblue0
well if Furcal could aim the ball better Nomar wouldn't have to save him have the time, I don't consider 1st & SS the same type postion sorry.

Wow. You might pull a hamstring from stretching your side of the argument.

2006-07-29 13:37:45
131.   regfairfield
127 With Furcal, there is no reason to keep him on the team.

Okay, you can't throw anyone at first, but you could put anyone who's even decent at any other position, and they'd be a good first baseman. Why do you think teams stash their immobile power hitters there? It minimizes the damage they can do.

2006-07-29 13:38:16
132.   confucius
115 Ethier does that to me more than any other Dodger. In that series in St. Louis I thought he had homered 3 different times.
2006-07-29 13:38:16
133.   Bluebleeder87
Why was Soriano playing so deep with Izturis up?

Izzy has major pop (did you see he's blast yesterday)

2006-07-29 13:38:19
134.   overkill94
127 Who advocated keeping Izturis? It seems like you're having an argument with yourself.

Most people just don't want to give Izturis away because there's at least some market for him. Toronto would be a great fit because they already have a good enough offense that putting Izzy in the 9-hole wouldn't kill them.

2006-07-29 13:38:49
135.   Uncle Miltie
Betemit might not be in LA, but his spirit is. It's lighting a fire under the Dodgers offense. I hope Fookie doesn't party too hard when Betemit arrives in LA tonight.
2006-07-29 13:39:10
136.   Gen3Blue
Martin Booyah indeed! I heard it here several minutes before Gameday.
2006-07-29 13:39:20
137.   natepurcell
Betemit, Martin, Ethier, ALL UNDER 25 and OPSing over 800. Good deal.
2006-07-29 13:39:23
138.   Bluebleeder87
Lowe is still keeping the ball up.
2006-07-29 13:39:23
139.   StolenMonkey86
124 - because he can run fast and he's better at going forward than backward?
2006-07-29 13:39:25
140.   overkill94
I smell a slugfest
2006-07-29 13:40:22
141.   Uncle Miltie
Martinez is a horrible defender. At the very least, that ball shouldn't have gotten out of the infield.
2006-07-29 13:40:31
142.   confucius
Apparently some people around here are not aware of a stat that Izturis leads the Majors in, RGI.

Runs Gloved In. :)

2006-07-29 13:41:10
143.   StolenMonkey86
140 - I can smell that all the way over here in Richmond
2006-07-29 13:41:23
144.   Bluebleeder87
Betemit, Martin, Ethier, ALL UNDER 25 and OPSing over 800. Good deal.

I thought Betemit was 26?

2006-07-29 13:41:48
145.   MartinBillingsley31
Runs Gloved In.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love it.

2006-07-29 13:42:01
146.   StolenMonkey86
Lowe's striking people out
2006-07-29 13:42:03
147.   overkill94
Lowe doesn't seem to be hunching his back as much as he usually does. Am I seeing things or could this be a flaw in his delivery?
2006-07-29 13:42:42
148.   confucius
Did we decide how old Betemit is? Vin said he turned 25 (not 26 or 24) yesterday, just to "compund the fracture" :)
2006-07-29 13:43:23
149.   Greg Brock
Lowe better get the ball down, or Soriano's gonna hit one nine miles.
2006-07-29 13:45:13
150.   Uncle Miltie
Lowe just wants to keep the game competitive
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-07-29 13:45:23
151.   Bluebleeder87
I wish Lowe thought it was aug.
2006-07-29 13:45:46
152.   StolenMonkey86
I guess Repko threw to 2nd?
2006-07-29 13:46:11
153.   Gen3Blue
While some people in baseball do consider defense important I don't think we can afford it. We need an offense that can go out every inning and get more runs than the pitching gave up.
2006-07-29 13:47:12
154.   StolenMonkey86
ok, any out will do Derek.
2006-07-29 13:47:21
155.   confucius
Who is the Dodgers' lond reliever right now? Carrara?
2006-07-29 13:48:10
156.   StolenMonkey86
look at those pitch counts:

Lowe - 51 through 2
O'Connor - 27 through 1

2006-07-29 13:48:20
157.   Bluebleeder87
Lowe just wants to keep the game competitive

I went to his game about 3 weeks ago, & he really wasn't on his game.

2006-07-29 13:48:39
158.   confucius
155 Nevermind, it's gotta be Dessens.
2006-07-29 13:48:52
159.   natepurcell
Honestly, hold runners on or get out of the game. ridiculous.
2006-07-29 13:49:03
160.   bluetahoe
Great effort Lowe! Keep up the good work!
2006-07-29 13:49:52
161.   MartinBillingsley31
While some people in baseball do consider defense important I don't think we can afford it. We need an offense that can go out every inning and get more runs than the pitching gave up.

That's my whole argument.

And how much more important is izturis god like defense with no hitting over a player with good or average defense with way better hitting ?

2006-07-29 13:50:44
162.   bluetahoe
Why do we sign .500 pitchers for 4 years at 10 million per? (Lowe)

when can get .500 pitchers for 2 years at 4.5 million per? (Tomko)

2006-07-29 13:50:47
163.   Johnson
Normally, if you told me that Lowe would have 5 Ks in the first two innings, I'd be ecstatic. Hmm.
2006-07-29 13:50:59
164.   Greg Brock
We need an offense that can go out every inning and get more runs than the pitching gave up.

I like it.

2006-07-29 13:51:04
165.   StolenMonkey86
Hey, if he just keeps them from hitting the ball, he can just strike everyone out
2006-07-29 13:51:41
166.   confucius
Grady will keep Lowe in too long this game because he is a "players manager". As bad as the dodgers have been I wouldn't let him squander this game. I want to see the bullpen next inning.
2006-07-29 13:52:04
167.   Uncle Miltie
161- defense is important, but you have to hit a little bit. Orlando Hudson is a decent hitter and a great defender. Any team in the majors can use a player like him.
2006-07-29 13:53:50
168.   confucius
Derek Lowe is utterly worthless.
2006-07-29 13:53:53
169.   Greg Brock
Ladies and gentlemen, we're coming up with an entirely new and innovative kind of suckatude.
2006-07-29 13:54:07
170.   Bluebleeder87
Derek Lowe is So one dementional.
2006-07-29 13:54:14
171.   trainwreck
Someone get Lowe his adderall.
2006-07-29 13:54:48
172.   Gen3Blue
161 I wasn't being quite that literal.
I'm not sure we have someone with average defense who is a WAY better hitter.
But I don't really disagree with you that much.
2006-07-29 13:54:49
173.   Uncle Miltie
Lowe's brain is not functioning properly.
2006-07-29 13:55:13
174.   StolenMonkey86
166 - seriously? I wouldn't go that far.

I'd at least wait to see if he can settle down in the third.

That wasn't a very good bunt

2006-07-29 13:55:27
175.   regfairfield
What the heck was Lowe supposed to do there? He hits ball, he starts running. He sees Johnson catch the ball, he hit the breaks. As hard as Steve Lyons may hope, momentum and inertia do exist.

We should be blaming Martinez for not running on that play.

2006-07-29 13:55:38
176.   natepurcell
the people over at bravesjournal.com are blind if they think Baez will lead them to the promise land.
2006-07-29 13:56:20
177.   ddger
Can't Lowe do anything right.
2006-07-29 13:56:25
178.   natepurcell
Keep in mind just LAST year he had 41 saves for tampa bay!!! His ERA was below 3. It's not as if this guy has been declining for years now. Between him and Wickman we have over 80 saves last year. Suddenly is our bullpen a strenght???

lol.

2006-07-29 13:56:52
179.   trainwreck
That guy is sitting in the front row and he is on the phone all game, someone take his tickets!!
2006-07-29 13:57:01
180.   dzzrtRatt
161 Luckily we have a choice right in front of us -- Izzy v. Furcal, Izzy v. Betamit, Izzy v. Kent, and apparently Izzy loses all three, goes to the bench when all three are healthy, and probably is going to be traded (at least it would seem logical to do so.) So what are you complaining about? That Izzy was considered more valuable than Aybar? Aybar wasn't good or average on defense, he was below average. And he was a good, but certainly not a great hitter. As someone else said last night I think, Aybar is a man without a position: Defensively too inept to start, but without enough power to be a DH. He's ultimately a pinch hitter. Unless someone teaches him to defend better. I think the Dodgers thought he'd reached his limit.
2006-07-29 13:57:53
181.   ddger
At least our offense has waken up but Lowe seems to be still sleep walking.
2006-07-29 13:58:00
182.   Greg Brock
Lyons said that they needed to sign Furcal to attract other players.

Stop. Just stop. Stop thinking that, stop saying that, stop believing that. Players go to the team that offers them the most money over the most years. Union rules.

2006-07-29 13:58:09
183.   Gen3Blue
Did he really bunt into a double play. That must have been ugly!
2006-07-29 13:58:30
184.   overkill94
176 When your bullpen is as bad as theirs, even someone mediocre like Baez will give you hope
2006-07-29 13:58:58
185.   Bluebleeder87
What the heck was Lowe supposed to do there?

bunt better (did you see that week bunt attempt)

2006-07-29 14:00:08
186.   natepurcell
184

there is a fine line between hope and fantasyland.

2006-07-29 14:00:41
187.   StolenMonkey86
Repko got under that one?
2006-07-29 14:01:05
188.   Bluebleeder87
keep on leaving the ball up Lowe!! (not)
2006-07-29 14:01:06
189.   regfairfield
185 Okay, but that's not what people were complaining about. It was that he didn't come to an immediate stop.

I'm not seeing why Lowe is taking the blame when that would have been a fine bunt if Ramon Martinez wouldn't have stopped running.

2006-07-29 14:01:20
190.   Johnson
Well, if the trends hold, Lowe will allow two runs and strike out four this inning.
2006-07-29 14:01:54
191.   Uncle Miltie
Fookie's OPS now stands at .732. He's been one of our better hitters since the break.
2006-07-29 14:02:30
192.   StolenMonkey86
Seo got run support, now 6-2 TB. And Navarro has let the yanks run on him twice
2006-07-29 14:03:12
193.   Bluebleeder87
was that an afflac question?
2006-07-29 14:04:17
194.   Bluebleeder87
Okay, but that's not what people were complaining about. It was that he didn't come to an immediate stop.

yeah that was another thing. your right.

2006-07-29 14:04:29
195.   StolenMonkey86
oh, goodie

Tuesday August 1

Odalis Perez vs Mark Buehrle

Odalis' first start as a Royal

2006-07-29 14:04:46
196.   Vaudeville Villain
180-

Aybar's peripherals showed him to be a better hitter than izturis. Also, his "ineptness" on defense was overhyped. There is no reason Izturis should play ahead of him.

Izturis's bat is not worth having in the lineup just for one or two nice plays every three games or so.

2006-07-29 14:04:59
197.   Gen3Blue
Note to D's coaches. O'conner could be in pitch count trouble with a bit of help.
2006-07-29 14:05:40
198.   scooplew
Lowe shares the team lead in sacrifice hits with 6. He tied for the team lead last year with 9. What bothers me is that he seems to have a hard time keeping his head in the game.
2006-07-29 14:06:16
199.   Greg Brock
Hilarity ensues.
2006-07-29 14:06:44
200.   StolenMonkey86
Derek Lowe isn't being very efficient

Will he get through 5 innings on less than 120 pitches?

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-07-29 14:07:16
201.   StolenMonkey86
this is the arguement for defense at first
2006-07-29 14:07:18
202.   Uncle Miltie
189- it's all of Lowe's mistakes combined that has caused the frustration. He just forgot to cover the bag. I don't like how he isn't paying attention to the runners and isn't really using a slide step.
2006-07-29 14:07:30
203.   confucius
Way to cover the bag Odalis!!!
2006-07-29 14:08:21
204.   regfairfield
The man was trying to not get killed by a bat. What the hell do you want him to do?
2006-07-29 14:08:31
205.   StolenMonkey86
I guess he thought "Nomar could run that down," then remembered, oh wait, this is Olmedo
2006-07-29 14:08:44
206.   natepurcell
is that the 100th stolen base today?
2006-07-29 14:09:20
207.   Uncle Miltie
Lowe is showing a total lack of respect to his catcher by not making much of an effort to hold runners.
2006-07-29 14:09:47
208.   Andrew Shimmin
180- Aybar's defense was probably below average at 2B and 3B, but it probably wasn't worse than replacement level. Lots of major league baseball players are worse than average--that doesn't disqualify them from being useful. Aybar was without a position for the same reason Betemit was, and for the same reason Betemit will probably be, again, next year.
2006-07-29 14:10:06
209.   StolenMonkey86
is he meditating or something on the mound? The Nats are running on him and Martin like Kenny Lofton 10 years ago would on Kenny Lofton now
2006-07-29 14:10:32
210.   confucius
I take it back, leave him in there. This is hilarius!
2006-07-29 14:10:40
211.   natepurcell
Honestly, Martin can only do so much. Lowe needs to do his part. All of this ADD stuff cannot be an excuse anymore.
2006-07-29 14:11:29
212.   Johnson
Billingsley:BB::Lowe:SB
2006-07-29 14:12:22
213.   StolenMonkey86
"Derek, give me the ball. After your performance today we just traded you to KC for Odalis Perez."

"What!"

"Just kidding. But give me the ball. You're pretty crappy out there today."

2006-07-29 14:12:46
214.   regfairfield
Poor Grady getting fired for directly disobeying an order from his boss.
2006-07-29 14:14:38
215.   StolenMonkey86
Well, I never knew 7 strikeouts in 3 innings could look so bad
2006-07-29 14:14:49
216.   Bluebleeder87
Lowe is showing a total lack of respect to his catcher by not making much of an effort to hold runners.

IMO, he just dons't hold runners well. he's like 6'5.

2006-07-29 14:16:26
217.   StolenMonkey86
If a pitcher pitched like this often, WHIP would be a much more useful stat than K/9.
2006-07-29 14:16:51
218.   natepurcell
nice range by Zimmerman.
2006-07-29 14:17:30
219.   StolenMonkey86
216- how do you pronounce "dons't"?
2006-07-29 14:17:40
220.   regfairfield
Drew was safe there, right?
2006-07-29 14:17:48
221.   trainwreck
This is hilarious, keep hitting Saenz.
2006-07-29 14:18:07
222.   Bluebleeder87
Saenz has a couple of strawberry's
2006-07-29 14:18:14
223.   StolenMonkey86
Man, they really mean it when they say Olmedo's filling in for Nomar
2006-07-29 14:18:16
224.   Johnson
Is Loney here yet? Ouchie for Saenz.
2006-07-29 14:19:01
225.   Greg Brock
223 Nice.
2006-07-29 14:20:53
226.   StolenMonkey86
Did they send Olmedo or something?
2006-07-29 14:21:56
227.   regfairfield
226 O'Connor threw what looked like an Eephus pitch and Ethier put an amazingly weak swing on it. They could barely get Ethier.
2006-07-29 14:23:32
228.   StolenMonkey86
oh, ok
2006-07-29 14:26:16
229.   MartinBillingsley31
Furcal has officially jumped over lofton in ops.
Furcal 732 ops
Lofton 726 ops

So now our starting catcher (martin) and our starting ss (furcal) are both opsing higher than our starting cf (lofton) and our starting 3b (izturis).
That right there shows how bad lofton and izturis are.
There is no reason that your ss and catcher should be opsing higher than your cf and 3b.

2006-07-29 14:27:31
230.   confucius
218 I can't remember seeing Drew ground out to third before. I guess that's LHP.
2006-07-29 14:27:48
231.   trainwreck
According to new dodgers.com article, we are scouting Zito tonight. Uggh, well I guess if we lose our prospects I would prefer to lose them to the A's.
2006-07-29 14:27:56
232.   StolenMonkey86
Especially when your starting CF is a defensive liability
2006-07-29 14:28:05
233.   bluetahoe
And Izzy fails again.

I swear, you really have to feel for the situation Ned was brought into. All the nonsense contracts he inherited.....Izzy, Odalis, Drew, Lowe, Gagne. How can you win with that?

And don't forget Kim Ng plays GM for a week and lands us Jose Cruz. Thank God we're stuck with Cruz for only this season.

2006-07-29 14:29:10
234.   StolenMonkey86
well my guess is if we get Zito we sign him too. But is it really that important not to lose a draft pick?
2006-07-29 14:30:12
235.   bhsportsguy
The Angels play the shift against Ortiz and lose on what could have been a 6-4-3 double play because no one is playing in the SS hole.

I see that shift against Bonds and Ortiz but with runners on base, is it a wise move?

2006-07-29 14:30:14
236.   StolenMonkey86
233 - give Ng some credit. It was her idea to bring Kemp to the show
2006-07-29 14:31:21
237.   trainwreck
No way Zito signs an extension with any team he gets traded to with Boras as his agent.
2006-07-29 14:31:49
238.   Greg Brock
Zito just hired Boras, which means he's going to test the market. No extension.

If Burnett got 5/55 mil, Zito's getting 5/75 mil. I don't care if we trade for him, but that's what he's going to get on the market. Be prepared for that.

2006-07-29 14:32:26
239.   StolenMonkey86
So, try to soak one more inning out of D-Lowe, maybe 2 if for some reason he sends runners down on under 10 pitches? Also a good excuse to double switch in Loney
2006-07-29 14:32:36
240.   bluetahoe
236. Kemp got some experience, but overall he realy didn't help too much in the win department. That being said, I'd still like to see him recalled and get the majority of starts in center.
2006-07-29 14:32:46
241.   xaphor
[233] What good is a GM if he can't work within difficult situations? If only Ned had a golden touch :P
2006-07-29 14:33:40
242.   regfairfield
I never realy got the concept of scouting established big leaguers. Can we really learn something else about Zito from one game that no one noticed for six years?
2006-07-29 14:33:44
243.   bluetahoe
If Zito wants 5/75 he better not be wearing Dodger blue next season. Get Schmidt and maybe Buehrle/Lilly.
2006-07-29 14:35:06
244.   natepurcell
243

Buehrle? right.

2006-07-29 14:35:49
245.   MartinBillingsley31
I swear, you really have to feel for the situation Ned was brought into. All the nonsense contracts he inherited.....Izzy, Odalis, Drew, Lowe, Gagne. How can you win with that?

I agree, depodesta should have traded izturis.
You gotta look at the big picture with odalis perez, and why depodesta signed him.
Drew?, what's the complaint here?
Lowe?, again what's the complaint here?
Gagne, well, that one is complicated and i don't want to get into it.

And by the way depodesta had way more "nonsense contracts" to deal with.
So do you or did you "feel for the situation depodesta was brought into"?

2006-07-29 14:36:52
246.   Uncle Miltie
Great at bat by Fookie. I don't understand why people are still complaining about him. He's settled down on defense and is proving to be a solid offensive player.
2006-07-29 14:37:31
247.   regfairfield
Can we just ban the word "DePodesta" and all variations of said word?
2006-07-29 14:38:40
248.   StolenMonkey86
That time he didn't pull it enough
2006-07-29 14:38:59
249.   Bluebleeder87
If Ned trades: Kemp, Martin Either, any top pitching prospect He's dead to me.

ps sorry if i left somebody out.

2006-07-29 14:39:30
250.   Greg Brock
Think back to that pitching market and Odalis. He was slotted, at the time, for pretty much what he got. It was a weird market for pitching that year. His suckatude could not be predicted, and wasn't, by anybody.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-07-29 14:40:21
251.   bluetahoe
Then why can't others do the same in regards to Danys Baez or Kenny Lofton?
2006-07-29 14:41:31
252.   bluetahoe
>
2006-07-29 14:41:57
253.   bluetahoe
>>
2006-07-29 14:42:03
254.   StolenMonkey86
Randy Johnson got a kick in the pants from the Devil Rays. Jae Seo now has a 10-4 lead
2006-07-29 14:43:30
255.   natepurcell
Kershaw today..

5IP 2H 1ER 3bb 10k 1.29era

I think this should have been his last start in the GCL.

2006-07-29 14:43:31
256.   StolenMonkey86
103 pitches. Do you bring in Lowe for the 6th?
2006-07-29 14:44:18
257.   derrelthomas
For those who like the Betemit deal, looks like we made it just in time... Chipper went on the DL today; tinyurl.com/ky54f
2006-07-29 14:45:33
258.   trainwreck
At least I don't have to worry about Kershaw being traded.
2006-07-29 14:45:33
259.   bluetahoe
So where does Kershaw go next? Anybody?
2006-07-29 14:45:42
260.   confucius
255 Awesome.

Honestly, why can't the cardinals beat the cubs? It's pathetic. The cubs are up again today.

2006-07-29 14:45:55
261.   Greg Brock
Kershaw is going to push the Dodger timetable unlike any other. It's going to be very interesting seeing what happens.
2006-07-29 14:46:24
262.   bluetahoe
I bring Lowe out for the 6th. And Derek, I'm sorry for bad mouthing you. I've been a bad boy lately.
2006-07-29 14:46:50
263.   regfairfield
Look a fun new blog:

http://tinyurl.com/k6km9

2006-07-29 14:46:55
264.   natepurcell
So where does Kershaw go next? Anybody?

Probably Odgen and hopefully Vero Beach next year just like Billingsley.

2006-07-29 14:47:09
265.   StolenMonkey86
nice one for Clayton. Only bad point was the 3 WP
2006-07-29 14:48:01
266.   Bluebleeder87
Sam DC is being shy today?
2006-07-29 14:48:03
267.   StolenMonkey86
258 - yep, because you're not allowed to trade people you draft unless you've had them for at least a year
2006-07-29 14:48:12
268.   Andrew Shimmin
Do 252 and 253 mean something?
2006-07-29 14:48:20
269.   JoeyP
How many runs has Izturis drove in with his glove today?
2006-07-29 14:48:24
270.   natepurcell
What is wrong with Soriano batting 1st? Shut up announcers.
2006-07-29 14:48:45
271.   bluetahoe
Dang nabbit. I was hoping he'd go to Columbus so I could see him in person.

Anyone know who the biggest studs are at Columbus?

2006-07-29 14:49:06
272.   bhsportsguy
255 Do you think a jump to Columbus is too big, only because there are so many starters in Ogden right now?
2006-07-29 14:49:24
273.   gpellamjr
268 They make about as much sense as his other posts today.
2006-07-29 14:49:45
274.   Gen3Blue
249 I know its controversial. But I would include Loney, Laroche and possibly even Guzman.
2006-07-29 14:50:34
275.   MartinBillingsley31
How many runs has Izturis drove in with his glove today?

LOL!!!!!!

I love it.

2006-07-29 14:50:41
276.   natepurcell
do you guys hear that? Its ANDRES MADRES with all the background cheering.
2006-07-29 14:52:03
277.   natepurcell
Do you think a jump to Columbus is too big, only because there are so many starters in Ogden right now?

Actually, I wouldn't mind that at all. It would be a nice challenge for him.

2006-07-29 14:52:42
278.   bhsportsguy
272
Morris, Wall, Castillo and Johnson. I would think one of these guys would have to get promoted if Kershaw came here.
2006-07-29 14:52:46
279.   StolenMonkey86
270 - Well, depends. He hits a lot of home runs in the first innning. If you think he would do the same thing batting third, and that the Nationals could get a man on in the 1-2 spots, then you'd probably think he'd be more productive if he hit more home runs with men on.

He's a good speedster, and the Nats don't really have a better leadoff guy, though. Frank Robinson said he wasn't as productive in other spots of the lineup (go figure), so they have him at leadoff.

From a fantasy point of view, leadoff is awesome because he can deliver homers and steals, and still quite a few RBI

2006-07-29 14:52:51
280.   confucius
269 I've got him at 7 RGI.
2006-07-29 14:52:55
281.   bluetahoe
268. Yes. How in the name of Sam Hill do you get the lettering bold?

275. Are you talking to yourself? LOL...

2006-07-29 14:53:15
282.   Greg Brock
274 I would trade Guzman in a heart beat. I just don't see what everybody else appears to see. If Guzman could net us a solid piece, that deal would be done.
2006-07-29 14:53:40
283.   StolenMonkey86
ha! 3.5 thru the 3.5 hole

I feel like I've seen that a few times

2006-07-29 14:54:39
284.   Uncle Miltie
Golden boy!
2006-07-29 14:54:43
285.   confucius
Russell Martin is a golden god!
2006-07-29 14:54:47
286.   natepurcell
so Backstop Bacon is up over .300 again.
2006-07-29 14:54:57
287.   Greg Brock
281 you bold by putting asterisks around the phrase you want. *
2006-07-29 14:55:10
288.   bluetahoe
I know Ethier hasn't batted much against lefties but he's been very impressive when he has. A good sign I think.
2006-07-29 14:55:11
289.   underdog
What was said about Martin's AB earlier, once again: "Boo-yah."

I just looove the Nationals bullpen so far this series.

2006-07-29 14:55:18
290.   MartinBillingsley31
BOOYAH MARTIN!!!!!!!!!!
2006-07-29 14:55:22
291.   StolenMonkey86
I'll suggest a defensive metric called VOSD - Value Over Saenz's Defense
2006-07-29 14:55:43
292.   Jon Weisman
273 - This comment would be an example, though not the only one today, of one that violates the code of conduct here.

Honestly, the tone in here gets so nasty with all the bickering, it's amazing to me that anyone ever thinks there's a unanimous viewpoint here.

How can I get people to stop taking shots at each other? Really. Help me out.

2006-07-29 14:55:46
293.   JoeyP
If the Dodgers could just play these last place teams more often....
2006-07-29 14:55:51
294.   bluetahoe
test
2006-07-29 14:56:29
295.   StolenMonkey86
Good, right-hander. So if Izzy pulls it, he won't pull it to Sori (that guy has an arm), so sac fly opp here
2006-07-29 14:56:37
296.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Anyone elese having trouble accessing the online radio broadcast? For the past few days, nada, for radio or TV.
2006-07-29 14:56:38
297.   gpellamjr
Ethier for ROY, Martin for MVP!
2006-07-29 14:56:49
298.   overkill94
Thom Brennemann is such a bad announcer
2006-07-29 14:57:19
299.   Paul Scott
heh. Hitting Izturis is about a dumb as it gets.
2006-07-29 14:57:27
300.   StolenMonkey86
Wow, Cesar crowds the plate. Gameday showed that pitch was barely inside.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-07-29 14:57:28
301.   confucius
Bat Loney for Lowe!!
2006-07-29 14:57:40
302.   natepurcell
How can I get people to stop taking shots at each other? Really. Help me out.

Impose martial law on Dodgerthoughts!

2006-07-29 14:58:26
303.   overkill94
292 Rule with an iron fist
2006-07-29 14:58:35
304.   confucius
It clearly hit the knob of the bat and not his hand. Izzy chokes up.
2006-07-29 14:58:46
305.   bhsportsguy
292 - Second that.

Nate, check out Chad's numbers in Ogden and compare them to Kershaw's, maybe Clayton could go straight to Vero Beach

2006-07-29 14:59:04
306.   gpellamjr
292 I could just stop making rude and bitter comments. That would help. That would really help (just testing bold).
2006-07-29 14:59:06
307.   StolenMonkey86
In play, run scoring play is always good
2006-07-29 14:59:26
308.   Uncle Miltie
Martinez is worthless as a starter
2006-07-29 15:00:12
309.   natepurcell
305

Pioneer League is completely different from GCL. Better hitters park, older, more advanced hitters. So its hard to really compare them with each other straight up.

2006-07-29 15:00:17
310.   Paul Scott
307 - maybe not in this case.
2006-07-29 15:00:22
311.   bluetahoe
296. I refuse to listen to the Dodgers feed. Steiner has made me mad so often. He gets me all excited when a Dodger flies out to left. Steiner's original reaction is like its 20 rows deep. That steams me. It really does. Gets me all excited over a freakin' out.
2006-07-29 15:00:33
312.   Gen3Blue
269 1.67
I think Kershaw should get a taste of Columbus. Or stay where he is. How ridiculous is a move to Ogden. Do you realize how far out that is, and how similiar to the GCL.
2006-07-29 15:00:50
313.   underdog
Jon - group moderation usually works on boards - and if someone's really out of line, urging them to calm down or leave if they don't behave. And if that doesn't work, you may have to do what you've done before - ask them off the comments for a week (with no dessert).

And if that doesn't work, sic Brad Penny on them?

2006-07-29 15:01:01
314.   bluetahoe
*test2*
2006-07-29 15:01:52
315.   bluetahoe
OK. Can someone tell me how to link a previous post with the underlined number?
2006-07-29 15:02:02
316.   StolenMonkey86
I think RBI GIDP is the biggest rally killer
2006-07-29 15:02:15
317.   JoeyP
Tahoe you can test without posting.
Just keep the "Preview comment before saving" box checked.
2006-07-29 15:02:26
318.   bhsportsguy
Anyone catch the note in dodgers.com that Ledee may be on his way back to the Yankees.
2006-07-29 15:03:02
319.   Greg Brock
292 Makes me sad. We're all fans here, we love the Dodgers, and enjoy the pleasure of each other's company (for the most part). I love reading the arguments here, and engaging in constructive dialogue, but it should never get petty or personal. I try to keep it cordial, I think I do, and I hope everybody does the same.

And bluetahoe, you put it in brackets [ ]. Now be nice.

2006-07-29 15:03:14
320.   bhsportsguy
315 use [] around the number.
2006-07-29 15:03:26
321.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
292 - Jon, I don't think you can do much more than you have. It's clear what you and DT's participants will and won't accept, and to a great extent the board is self policing. (I've seen a newcomer curse in a post, then be told immediately that sort of language isn't used here. And the newcomer apologizes.)
But there will always be a regular who comes in with a sour attitude and says something sharper than intended. Or a troll enters and exhibits the equivalent behavior of a house guest setting fire to the drapes while insulting the hostess's looks.
Ninety-nine percent of the time, DT is informative and fun while maintaining civility. That 1 percent happens, though.
2006-07-29 15:04:29
322.   underdog
I think also urging people, all of us, including myself, to try to think before posting, and to pause it for a bit, to see how what we write may come off here. I know we all want to be the first one to say something, or break news, or make a particular point, so sometimes that rush to "speak" can make us come off in a way we wouldn't want to in retrospect, or in person. Let's just try to be civil.

Hey we're winning! (So far.)

2006-07-29 15:05:59
323.   regfairfield
292 I think what causes the shots of recently is there's been too much opinion without any facts to back it up. If you just say "Izturis sucks" (or whatever the opinion maybe) without anything to back it up, its a lot more likely to end up in personal shots than if someone supplies some points to argue against.
2006-07-29 15:06:19
324.   Paul Scott
I think RBI GIDP is the biggest rally killer

That is impossible.

2006-07-29 15:06:56
325.   Andrew Shimmin
There may be a seasonal component to ugly threads. The ones around the trade deadline last year were often ugly. Maybe next week will be nicer on its own.
2006-07-29 15:07:43
326.   bhsportsguy
Danger Will Robinson Danger Danger

Maddux throwing his best game in 2 months against the Cards today.

2006-07-29 15:09:04
327.   trainwreck
Well I completely agree with what Tom and Steve are talking about now.
2006-07-29 15:09:38
328.   StolenMonkey86
"Right now, we're 2-13 and we're on a roll."

I love Grady Little's sense of humor.

2006-07-29 15:11:37
329.   regfairfield
A playoff appearance nets a club about 25 million dollars (according to Baseball Between the Numbers) so a team should attempt to make the playoffs,even if they won't go anywhere.
2006-07-29 15:11:39
330.   overkill94
Zito has 6 K's today...4 of them against Alex Rios...who is on my fantasy team...grrr
2006-07-29 15:11:47
331.   confucius
292 This might not mean much to you but I think you do a better job of keeping your standards upheld than most message board moderators do.
2006-07-29 15:12:42
332.   Jon Weisman
Thanks, guys.

I appreciate that 99 percent or so of the comments here range from harmless to fun. But that nasty 1 percent has a disproportionate impact.

I actually thinks it starts with all the shots taken at the Dodger players and management. This is permitted here, but the language becomes so over-the-top that I'm not sure everyone knows how to dial it back down when they directly address each other.

Smugness isn't a bannable offense, but there is a level of smugness here that is just too high, for reasons not limited to the following:

1) We don't know everything - none of us do.

2) Reasonable, intelligent people can disagree.

3) Certain truths are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Most of us could use a little more humility, I feel.

2006-07-29 15:13:16
333.   overkill94
326 And he was pulled after 81 pitches even though he was pitching really well...
2006-07-29 15:14:19
334.   Greg Brock
329 Agree. Totally. You shouldn't mortgage too much to make the playoffs, but man, you should try like the devil to do so. $$$$$
2006-07-29 15:15:18
335.   bhsportsguy
333 6 innings, 1 run looks pretty good to other GMs.
2006-07-29 15:15:28
336.   trainwreck
332
Translates to: Stop smelling your own farts!!
2006-07-29 15:17:07
337.   StolenMonkey86
at least he didn't give up the homer.

I feel much more comfortable with 2 outs pitching to Felipe Lopez.

2006-07-29 15:17:52
338.   overkill94
Come on JB, you're freakin me out
2006-07-29 15:17:53
339.   Eric L
323 I haven't posted much lately, but I'll second that emotion. I've read posts about how this guy is terrible or that guy isn't terrible, but no evidence is provided either way. This board and BBTF made me realize that opinions are nice to have about baseball players, but without some sort of evidence they don't mean anything.

Didn't GoBears (or was it OldBear? I get my bears confused from time to time.) do a really nice post about that sort of thing a while back?

2006-07-29 15:18:09
340.   trainwreck
This feels like the longest half inning ever!
2006-07-29 15:19:17
341.   Gen3Blue
Request for serious help. What ining is it. I don't trust Gameday.
2006-07-29 15:19:41
342.   Paul Scott
337 - If only Beimel actually pitched to him.
2006-07-29 15:19:42
343.   bluetahoe
JoeyB with a collapse.
2006-07-29 15:20:11
344.   trainwreck
top of the 6th
2006-07-29 15:20:38
345.   StolenMonkey86
can the glue man get us out of a sticky situation?
2006-07-29 15:20:49
346.   overkill94
I think I'd rather have a swollen prostate than swollen breasts
2006-07-29 15:22:06
347.   JoeyP
If you just say "Izturis sucks" (or whatever the opinion maybe) without anything to back it up

Very good point.
If this blog allowed signatures, this would be mine:

107ABs-.243/.293/.308
OPS-.601
RATE2 at 3b: 96

Susan Powter-- "Stop the Insanity"

2006-07-29 15:22:23
348.   trainwreck
346
lol
2006-07-29 15:22:36
349.   overkill94
Yay Elmer!
2006-07-29 15:23:02
350.   StolenMonkey86
yay! The man of glue came through!
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-07-29 15:23:12
351.   JoeyP
Zimmerman has had a horrible game.
Horrible AB right there.
2006-07-29 15:23:16
352.   Uncle Miltie
Elmer holds it together
2006-07-29 15:23:23
353.   Bluebleeder87
I agree with you Jon, but we are human & I'm sure you know that & that's why you excuse us (at times) I've been told to tone it down at times, & I swear I look at it in a positive way. (my spelling is really bad peeps sorry)
2006-07-29 15:23:51
354.   Linkmeister
Sam, I enjoyed your backgrounder on Zimmerman, and I enjoyed the WaPo article. Thanks.

I'm also very glad he just popped out to right.

2006-07-29 15:24:39
355.   StolenMonkey86
346 - I won't ask
2006-07-29 15:24:43
356.   Marty
Please, for the sake of MY sanity, never mention Susan Powter again.
2006-07-29 15:28:26
357.   MartinBillingsley31
347

LOL

As far as izturis sucking (sorry about that word but someone else used it) all you gotta do is look at his career ops of 633 and his season ops of 632 and realize he's consistent (what kind of consistent i'll leave it to the imagination).

2006-07-29 15:29:00
358.   Uncle Miltie
347- .632 OPS. Don't use rate2, it's a dirty stat. It makes Jeff Kent look like a gold glover.

regfairfield- do you have Orlando Hudson's fielding numbers from the fielding bible? Some people here don't seem to think that defense is important. I remember reading a few years ago that Hudson was more valuable than Soriano because his defense was so much better.

2006-07-29 15:29:50
359.   Bluebleeder87
353

I'm on my 6th beer sorry.

2006-07-29 15:30:28
360.   gpellamjr
Geez, I didn't realize my stupid comment would cause such a stir. I apologize to everyone and particularly to bluetahoe. I enjoy your enthusiasm and would never intentionally insult you. I was just being a jerk as I like to do.

And for the record, I don't smell my own farts, at least not intentionally, sometimes you can't help it.

2006-07-29 15:30:51
361.   Uncle Miltie
Nice phantom tag, these umpires are terrible
2006-07-29 15:31:32
362.   trainwreck
6th beer by 3:30... nice!

I am saving my drinking for tonight.

2006-07-29 15:32:13
363.   Eric L
361 Phantom tags are pretty much the norm in baseball.
2006-07-29 15:33:05
364.   bluetahoe
360 There's this video by the all american rejects called dirty little secrets.
One of the dirty little serets is that this one person likes the smell of his poop. That being said, I don't mind the smell of my poop or farts, but the smell of others poop and farts gags me.
2006-07-29 15:33:06
365.   gpellamjr
Any new trade rumors in the last couple hours?
2006-07-29 15:33:08
366.   overkill94
355 Obviously you're not watching the game because every other commercial is an ad for some drug that lets you pee less often, with one of the side effects being swollen breasts. Unfortunately, women can't take it, otherwise it could provide some nice natural enhancement.
2006-07-29 15:33:18
367.   Bluebleeder87
the nationals were in a little winning streak before they god here.
2006-07-29 15:33:43
368.   gpellamjr
364 Now that's a comment that makes sense to me!
2006-07-29 15:34:01
369.   Paul Scott
358 +20
2006-07-29 15:34:45
370.   Greg Brock
This thread has gone off the rails. I like it.
2006-07-29 15:34:47
371.   underdog
We should attach a breathalyzer to the login page for the comments here. (Just teasing you BlueB ;-) )

Btw, Repko was clearly safe, but whatever.

And gpell, I think also you just opened the floodgates for a broader conversation here, don't think all this should be just about one snarky comment.

2006-07-29 15:34:49
372.   overkill94
365 The White Sox turned down Coco Crisp for Mark Buehrle. That's about it for now.
2006-07-29 15:35:32
373.   Bluebleeder87
364

I like the smell of victory?

2006-07-29 15:36:18
374.   Andrew Shimmin
The last three years, Izzy has had WARPs of 2.6, 3.5, and 2.1 (in his very short 2005) respectively. He's not great, he'll never be a HOFer, but he doesn't suck, so long as he's used properly.
2006-07-29 15:36:27
375.   Eric L
371 Having done quite a bit of umpiring myself, it was hard enough to tell on the replay if Repko was safe. Either way, the umpire was going to make a "bad" call.
2006-07-29 15:36:44
376.   MartinBillingsley31
Coco Crisp

I use to eat that cereal when i was young. LOL

2006-07-29 15:37:14
377.   bhsportsguy
360 The thing about the written word is that is you don't get any nuance or sarcasm that might be intended, all you get is the black pixels on a white screen.

I also believe that in today's culture, if you are not on my side, then you must be the enemy. No one ever wants to take the time to understand the other point of view.

I go to DodgerThoughts to escape that but lately, there has been a tendency to launch into sides regarding the GM or a player.

But at least for 2 days, the Dodgers are scoring and I have not checked but maybe Jon knows, did they finally hit enough homers to go over the low for the month of July?

2006-07-29 15:37:36
378.   trainwreck
Rumors are that the Red Sox are trying to make some big deals and Will Carrol claims his most reliable source said one of their deals will go down today.
2006-07-29 15:37:50
379.   natepurcell
374

WARP sucks because it doesnt show izzy as a terrible player :)

2006-07-29 15:38:07
380.   overkill94
A few years ago the Indians had the starting outfield on the all-name team: Coco Crisp, Milton Bradley, and a boy named Jody
2006-07-29 15:38:15
381.   regfairfield
358 I don't own the fielding bible. But his rate2 is Ozzie Smith like. Over the last four years, he's turned in rate2s of 124, 114, 118, and 112. Ozzie Smith's best four year run was 113, 110, 111, 116. (Sorry for using it, but its the only good metric that's constantly updated an avialable into the past.)

Hudson has been around a seven win player even though he can't hit thanks to his defense. Soriano was around 5.5 wins in 2004 and 2005.

2006-07-29 15:38:21
382.   bhsportsguy
On another note, I was going to get my car washed, I hope it doesn't sprinkle.
2006-07-29 15:39:25
383.   Bluebleeder87
372

I've heard Buehrle's competivie nature is in question.JMO.(in the past)

2006-07-29 15:39:49
384.   Greg Brock
374 If you're an American League lineup that mashes, and you just want a shortstop with silly glove, and grabs the occasional hit, Izzy works. NL leadoff hitter, not so much. I like Izzy, but he needs to be in the AL with a stacked lineup. Just my opinion (obviously).
2006-07-29 15:40:55
385.   Eric L
381 On a serious note, does rate2 become invalidated because it goes against perception?

MMMMMM.. Phillipe's!

2006-07-29 15:41:53
386.   Marty
The people at P.E. Coles on Sixth will argue with Mr. Brenaman on the origin of the french dip.
2006-07-29 15:42:21
387.   Johnson
Did I miss it, or did the entire DT crew somehow miss pointing out that Gigantor is pitching?
2006-07-29 15:42:42
388.   Greg Brock
I'm a Reubens sandwich guy, myself. Great, now I'm hungry.
2006-07-29 15:42:49
389.   overkill94
384 Exactly, that's why Toronto is such a good fit. Plus, it won't cost top prospects like Julio Lugo would.
2006-07-29 15:42:53
390.   Bluebleeder87
385

I heard a D.T. commenter say rate2 is dead to him

2006-07-29 15:42:56
391.   Linkmeister
I've never been there, but it looks awfully good, and it's lunchtime. Pity I'm about 2,500 miles west.
2006-07-29 15:42:57
392.   Paul Scott
Rate2, for me, is still the best fielding stat. My only quibble is that I have to just trust it, rather than calculate it, since it has been through a ton of tweeking since it was first created.
2006-07-29 15:43:42
393.   Marty
387 I tried earlier, I really did, but the Toaster was balking on my machine and I decided not to retry and suffer the dreaded double-post.
2006-07-29 15:43:58
394.   trainwreck
Ethier's favorite movie is Spanglish :(
2006-07-29 15:44:49
395.   Johnson
393 OK, that at least makes me feel a little better.
2006-07-29 15:45:16
396.   StolenMonkey86
hey, are the Dodgers going to actually give Saito a save opp?
2006-07-29 15:45:40
397.   MartinBillingsley31
Another reason i don't put much stock into defense is because, in my opinion there isn't a valid (what's the word i'm looking for?) stat for defense.
2006-07-29 15:45:44
398.   bluetahoe
Anyone realize the DRays have scored 18 runs in a game started by Randy Johnson?
2006-07-29 15:46:44
399.   StolenMonkey86
398 - I have this to say

Well, Jae Seo will get a W in Tampa

2006-07-29 15:46:49
400.   Greg Brock
394 ROFLMAO. Just thinking the same thing.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2006-07-29 15:47:10
401.   Uncle Miltie
381- I wouldn't say that he can't hit. Right now, he's putting up a .275/.338/.431 line with 9 HR. He's just entering the prime of his career and should consistently hit in the .270s with a few walks and around 15 HR. When you add in his defense, he's one of the most valuable 2B around. Adam Everett is a terrible hitter, but also an amazing defender. He plays at a position where great defense is a necessity. There are some positions where you can sacrifice some offense for defense (C, SS, CF), but you can't have a guy like Jason Phillips play 1B or Garret Anderson/ Scott Podsednik in LF.
2006-07-29 15:48:03
402.   Paul Scott
Heh. Apparently Little wanted to make sure the fat man got one last PA against a righty before pulling him for Loney. /shrug.
2006-07-29 15:48:27
403.   natepurcell
lets compare trades

my trade:

Baez and Lofton to the Astros for 3 pitching prospects, paul estrada, matt albers, and juan gutierrez.

neds trade:
Baez and Aybar for Betemit

which trade was better?

2006-07-29 15:48:31
404.   bluetahoe
397 Fielding percentage is a bunch of cockey doo IMO. The only stat for defense for me is the human eye. What I see. So basically I can only have opinions on the Dodgers players defense because I don't see enough of the other teams to make a reasonable conclusion.
2006-07-29 15:49:08
405.   gpellamjr
392 So Rate2 is really complicated, but can you at least explain the gist? I'm curious as to why people are so polarized about it.
2006-07-29 15:49:13
406.   StolenMonkey86
Dessens stays in? This seems like time for Broxton to set up for Saito, but since he's only used 16 pitches and retired 4 in a row, why not
2006-07-29 15:50:24
407.   trainwreck
I like your trade better Nate. Albers already got a call up and I always like collecting as many good young pitchers as possible.
2006-07-29 15:50:27
408.   StolenMonkey86
I don't know much about the prospects, but I would rather trade Lofton than Aybar
2006-07-29 15:50:37
409.   bluetahoe
If the Dodgers hold on today and Hendrickson actually gets a win tomorrow I'm lowering the white flag. (Like an idiot who hasn't learned his lesson the past 18 seasons)
2006-07-29 15:50:55
410.   Andrew Shimmin
384- I don't exactly disagree with you, but that still doesn't mean Izzy sucks. And, I'll insist that the irony of all the best hitting shortstops playing in the AL be noted.
2006-07-29 15:51:14
411.   Paul Scott
Nate, your trade is clearly better. But then that doesn't mean much from me since I thought Ned's trade sucked. I should say instead that your trade, if accepted by the Astros, would have been a good one for the Dodgers.
2006-07-29 15:51:14
412.   StolenMonkey86
The games where Izturis makes more plays than Furcal always amuse me
2006-07-29 15:52:55
413.   MartinBillingsley31
So basically I can only have opinions on the Dodgers players defense

Bingo!

In my opinion and its only my opinion anyone arguing that this player is better defensively than that player is only an opinion, in my opinion.
Its different with offense and pitching, there are valid (maybe a better word than valid) stats for offense and pitching, but in my opinion there isn't for defense and that's why i don't put stock in defense.

2006-07-29 15:52:57
414.   natepurcell
I should say instead that your trade, if accepted by the Astros, would have been a good one for the Dodgers.

It was accepted! Just not in real life, just in the GM Simulation thing.

2006-07-29 15:52:59
415.   StolenMonkey86
ok, since I have Saito on reserve this week for my fantasy team, let's give Loney an AB
2006-07-29 15:53:57
416.   xaphor
Nate, how is your fantasy team shaping up by the way?
2006-07-29 15:55:27
417.   natepurcell
416

Pretty good. Alot of the GMs for the other teams sort of lost interest so it was hard to get things going in the last week because no one would respond back. I wanted to do a bit more but its a two way street and the other end wasnt doing their part.

2006-07-29 15:55:30
418.   trainwreck
We got a new closer! YESSSSSSSSSSSS
2006-07-29 15:55:51
419.   bluetahoe
The Elmster paying dividends early.
2006-07-29 15:55:56
420.   overkill94
Nice AB Lucille
2006-07-29 15:56:13
421.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
D-Rays 18
Yanks 5
Bottom 7
Seems that every year, the Yankees absorb a beating like this, which totally screws with the Pythag projections. End result: It will appear as if the NYY outperformed their stats. In '04, when Cleveland beat them something like 22-0, that game led to an extra win - a whole win - above the projection based on RS/RA.
Then, Yankees fans crow about how the team did better than could be expected, when the real truth is the back end of the bullpen is terrible.
I hate that.
2006-07-29 15:57:43
422.   natepurcell
wow..broxtons going to close.
2006-07-29 15:57:48
423.   overkill94
What's it called when you strike out 5 times in a game? Whatever it is, Rios just did it.
2006-07-29 15:57:59
424.   Bluebleeder87
why is Cruz Jr. in the ball club?
2006-07-29 15:58:06
425.   StolenMonkey86
Hardly a pitchers duel in the bronx

Seo's game score: 30
Johnson's game score: 15

Seo had 1 K
Johnson had 0

2006-07-29 15:58:36
426.   StolenMonkey86
422 - nice. I've wondered what took them so long
2006-07-29 15:58:38
427.   Greg Brock
410 I've never said "Izzy sucks". Probably because he doesn't, and I don't see where people get that idea. Again, I like Izzy, a lot, and was dismayed when they signed Furcal. And yes, I concede that the majority of good hitting shortstops play in the AL. If you're a team with a potent lineup, however, you can afford to have a middle infielder who's primary responsibility is just that...middle infield. When you're a homerless team like the Dodgers, you need more out of your infielders.
2006-07-29 15:58:52
428.   natepurcell
Maybe Colletti traded Saito for Phill Hughes.
2006-07-29 15:59:30
429.   Uncle Miltie
ok, since I have Saito on reserve this week for my fantasy team, let's give Loney an AB
So you want Broxton to blow the save? ;)
2006-07-29 16:00:50
430.   thinkblue0
broxton in? Am I getting ahead of myself wondering if Saito could be in a deal?
2006-07-29 16:00:52
431.   trainwreck
The Bull's reign begins!
2006-07-29 16:01:50
432.   StolenMonkey86
429 - no, I wanted Izturis, Martinez, and the pinch hitter to get on base. I posted that before the bottom of the inning
2006-07-29 16:02:04
433.   Greg Brock
The future is now, Bull. Get a job done.
2006-07-29 16:02:17
434.   Eric L
430 If Saito was dealt, it would be the ultimate buy low-sell high trade.
2006-07-29 16:02:38
435.   gpellamjr
It's fun listening to Steiner trying to figure out what half of 98 is.
2006-07-29 16:02:43
436.   thinkblue0
428-

Phill Hughes of Yankee farm system fame?

2006-07-29 16:02:45
437.   overkill94
This could be huge for my fantasy team, I just traded for Broxton today
2006-07-29 16:03:30
438.   natepurcell
Phill Hughes of Yankee farm system fame?

Yep, him.

2006-07-29 16:04:30
439.   Bluebleeder87
Broxton dons't have a super pitch.
2006-07-29 16:04:40
440.   StolenMonkey86
Broxton has 100 lb on Soriano
2006-07-29 16:04:53
441.   Andrew Shimmin
427- I know you didn't say it, I was trying to have two arguments at once.
2006-07-29 16:06:00
442.   DaveP
439 - tell that Felipe Lopez
2006-07-29 16:06:30
443.   StolenMonkey86
nice

What's Broxton throwing today?

2006-07-29 16:06:34
444.   Greg Brock
If Broxton can work the changeup back in that he had as a minor league starter, he's going to be a monster.
2006-07-29 16:06:48
445.   thinkblue0
438-

If only Ned pulled that one off....

2006-07-29 16:07:22
446.   DaveP
443 - he's hit as high as 98mph.
2006-07-29 16:07:32
447.   natepurcell
What's Broxton throwing today?

95-98 with the fb

2006-07-29 16:07:36
448.   trainwreck
98mph
2006-07-29 16:08:56
449.   natepurcell
oh wow... nice splitter!
2006-07-29 16:09:22
450.   overkill94
Game Oxer!
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2006-07-29 16:09:32
451.   Greg Brock
91 mph slidepiece. Filth. Absolute filth.
2006-07-29 16:09:33
452.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
We win!
2006-07-29 16:09:40
453.   confucius
Brox made Johnson look bad.
2006-07-29 16:09:56
454.   natepurcell
okay. Seeing Broxton standing next to Martin is like seeing a beaver standing next to a hippo.
2006-07-29 16:10:22
455.   StolenMonkey86
game ending K.

Let's all clap for the Bull's first save

2006-07-29 16:10:43
456.   MartinBillingsley31
The big bad bull.

Booyah broxton!

2006-07-29 16:11:30
457.   trainwreck
Aybar gets an early chance to show his stuff as Chipper is going on the DL.
2006-07-29 16:12:10
458.   Bluebleeder87
two in a row??? WHAT?
2006-07-29 16:12:37
459.   Gen3Blue
I've been shut out by my IP since the seventh.
427 I know you are a reasonable fellow who doesn't undervalue Iz. Shortstop is an expensive place to look for your offense esp. in the NL recently. I'm old, and have seen times where defense and pitching have contributed to pride and together been more val. than offense.
2006-07-29 16:12:37
460.   thinkblue0
so what goes down now? Anyone have any rumors? I'm thinking we're gonna make at least one more deal before the deadline.

Where does Soriano go?

2006-07-29 16:12:38
461.   JoeyP
Dodgers have 7 games left with the Pirates, Nationals, and Cubs.
2006-07-29 16:12:48
462.   natepurcell
The most impressive pitch from Broxton: the 87mph splitter that ran over the outside corner of the plate to Johnson to set up the slider for the K. That splitter was awesome.
2006-07-29 16:14:15
463.   StolenMonkey86
454 - LOL!
2006-07-29 16:14:33
464.   Greg Brock
You won a game Friday. Today, you made it two in a row. Win tomorrow, and we call that a "winning streak". It has...happened...before.
2006-07-29 16:16:01
465.   StolenMonkey86
461 - We play the Cubs in the windy city, and I expect they'll boo him loudly for taking out Derek Lee, at the mildest

We play the Pirates in September!

2006-07-29 16:18:39
466.   StolenMonkey86
Maddux went 6 and struck out 6 against the Cards
2006-07-29 16:18:54
467.   gpellamjr
The fact that Saito didn't come in really has me thinking. When was the last time he pitched? Steiner and Monday seemed pretty surprised but then shut up about it suddenly, perhaps lest they be thought rumour mongers?
2006-07-29 16:20:29
468.   thinkblue0
466-

I guess I'm not against getting Maddux, but if we give up anything good then we're being fleeced.

Hopefully the Cubs see it as a salary dump.

2006-07-29 16:22:06
469.   thinkblue0
467-

That's what I'm thinking. If Ned sells high on Saito I'll be ecstatic.

2006-07-29 16:22:37
470.   JoeyP
Dodgers have 17 games vs Pirates, Cubs, and Rockies, Nationals left.

Dodgers have 17 games vs Reds, Mets, and Padres left.

2006-07-29 16:23:38
471.   trainwreck
468
Cubs asked for Ethier (according to ESPN Insider), so clearly this is not a salary dump for them.

I will offer them Houlton for Maddux.

2006-07-29 16:23:47
472.   JoeyP
469. Either Ned sells high on Saito (good), or he's showcasing Broxton (bad).
2006-07-29 16:25:01
473.   ToyCannon
Keith Law an analyst at ESPN I greatly admire and the best ESPN hire in years breaks down the Dodger trade thusly:
Dodgers get immediate 3B upgrade
posted: Saturday, July 29, 2006 | Print Entry

The Dodgers used Danys Baez to upgrade their third baseman of the immediate future. Wilson Betemit, 26, is a four-tool player whose speed has been lost as he has filled out over the past few years.

The switch-hitter crushes right-handers, can play third, second or short in a pinch, and has slightly above-average power to all fields. He's a significant improvement over Willy Aybar, who is three years younger but has stagnated at the plate since he was signed at age 16 in 1999. For the Dodgers, this amounts to trading Edwin Jackson, Chuck Tiffany and Aybar for Betemit, and that's a clear win.

In exchange for Betemit, the Braves get Baez, who like Bob Wickman is known more for his save totals than his ability to miss bats. Baez has a solid-average fastball but no real out pitch, and only this year has he shown even average control.

That said, the Braves' bullpen was their biggest weakness -- well, other than Jeff Francoeur -- and Baez immediately becomes their best late-game option from the right side.

2006-07-29 16:25:12
474.   thinkblue0
472-

guh. I didn't think of it that way.

471-

Agreed...a lower level pitcher like a Houlton is about all I'd give up.

2006-07-29 16:25:43
475.   Gen3Blue
I think we are in the cat birds seat. The D's are going to get progressively better from this point. Who was the player of the game? Martin. And there are more where he came from. And we have some good excess players. Anyone who needs a good player for this year could get one for a ridiculous price. Way it should be.
2006-07-29 16:27:06
476.   JoeyP
31 Road games and 26 Home games after tomorrow's game.
2006-07-29 16:27:19
477.   thinkblue0
473-

I like the trade, but still can't believe we're paying Baez.

2006-07-29 16:30:54
478.   JoeyP
473. Thats a surprising article from Keth Law. He pretty much disregards most of the important statistical data, which is strange coming from him.
2006-07-29 16:31:15
479.   ToyCannon
Tomorrow we go back to seeing the fun lineups. Betemit should be at 3b and Loney at 1st and Izzy at 2nd should be fun for Hendrickson.
2006-07-29 16:33:39
480.   trainwreck
473
I do not like the idea of saying Edwin, Tiffany, and Aybar for Betemit is a clear win. All of these players are young and they can not be evaluated till a few years from now, especially Edwin and Tiffany, who have very good stuff and need to harness it.
2006-07-29 16:34:48
481.   Claire Malone-Evans
I think we should give all the remaining ex-Devil Rays for Greg Maddux.
2006-07-29 16:35:23
482.   ToyCannon
480
Then don't say it.
2006-07-29 16:35:24
483.   dsfan
358, 374, 80 -- Agree with you.
2006-07-29 16:36:40
484.   JoeyP
Aybar -214 Career AB's- .280/.394/.430
Betemit-495 Career AB's- .281/.341/.432

How can Aybar be 'stagnant', when it took Betemit like 10 years to reach the major leagues?

I really think Aybar's is being undervalued. A kid that young that has command of the K zone, is an important tribute.

Betemit is a hacker. He is. Hopefully he hits enough homers to justify his trade, but he's a major league hacker.

2006-07-29 16:41:44
485.   dsfan
479-

Yes, improved run prevention, excellent to see, give Hendrickson as much help as possible. Loney, Izturis, Martin and Drew give Hendrickson four good defenders. And Izzy at 2B can only help Furcal -- but in fairness, Izzy has played very little 2B since his early days in Toronto, so allowances should be made.

Here is Dewan on Orlando Hudson:

The best defensie second baseman in the game. He has great range, especially into the second base hole to his left and is particularly adept at going back on popups. He is very tough and will stay in on the doubelplay and take contact....Using Bill James' new relative range system, Hudson is off the charts with total of plus-64, plus-96 and plus-89 over the last three years compare to Bret Boones plus-30, minus-29 and minus-15.

2006-07-29 16:43:14
486.   JoeyP
Betemit's career:

VS RHP: 363ABs- .292/.360/.455
VS LHP: 132ABs- .250/.289/.371

Aybar's career:
VS RHP: 170ABs- .306/.413/.471
VS LHP: 44ABs- .182/.321/.273

I'm not sure what exactly Keith Law is looking at when he says that Betemit is a significant improvement over Aybar. He's more proven, but I'm not sure if he's an improvement.

Guess we'll see how it plays out.

2006-07-29 16:44:48
487.   JoeyP
Izzy has played very little 2B since his early days in Toronto, so allowances should be made.

You just said yesterday that Izzy was a GG 2nd basemen.

Now he gets "allowances"?

Strange.

2006-07-29 16:45:12
488.   ToyCannon
Minor leaguers with command of the strike zone are great if they have some power to go with it. Once the major league pitchers realize they are dealing with a punch and judy they will start pounding the strike zone and that OBP will fall unless the player can show the ability to drive the ball. Willie will OPS below 725 the rest of the season in Atlanta. Just like Perez was overvalued here, so is Willie.
2006-07-29 16:46:45
489.   dsfan
480-
My evaluation of EJ, sad to say, is he actually does more harm than good, because the "potential" and velocity get him premature opportunities that end up hurting your major league club and hurt your bullpen and his confidence. It's a shame, because I believe he was mishandled in 2003, but it appear he peaked in 2003 at age 19-20.

Tiffany had yellow flags sticking out of his body last winter. Now, several of those flags are red. Sad to say, there's little reason to think he'll be a major league contributor. Rotator cuff injuries of that magnitude to a young power pitcher....it's a shame but just not a lot of cause for optimism.

2006-07-29 16:51:30
490.   JoeyP
488. Have you seen Wilson Betemit's power numbers? He didnt hit for power at all in the minors or in the majors.

This year is his first season of hitting for power. He's 3yrs older than Aybar. Look at Betemit's entire career, not just this year. Do the same with Aybar. When you're dealing with youngsters, you have to look at as much data as possible, since neither have distinguishable minor league track records.

Willie will OPS below 725 the rest of the season in Atlanta. Just like Perez was overvalued here, so is Willie.

Well, I'll file this under your Brett Tomko, Mark Hendrickson, and Danys Baez predictions.

2006-07-29 16:55:10
491.   dsfan
487-

Rejoinders such as yours bring to mind Emerson's comments about hobgoblins....

It's not mutually exclusive for a player to be very good at something yet require some sort of transitionary period to regain his feel for the task, to knock off some rust, to reorient himself to another side of the field. The move from 3B to 2B requires several adjustments -- an entirely different perspective on the pivot and popups, etc.

As part of evaluating performance, such things should be taken into account, that is, if one's interested in being fair about it.

The contextual truth is Izturis missed an entire year and has seldom played 2B in the last few years.

Seems entirely reasonable to grant him some sort of allowance to acclimate.

And yes, given a fair transitional period and regular work, he should be an excellent 2B. However, with Hudson in the NL, I won't rate him GG-caliber in this league. Excellent suffices.

2006-07-29 16:55:49
492.   Andrew Shimmin
It only took Betemit five-ish years to reach the majors, his first eight games were in his age 19 season. Assuming he really is 24. . .

I wouldn't be averse to reading a philosophical treatise on whether it's possible for any given player to hurt the Devil Rays.

2006-07-29 17:00:51
493.   das411
Wow, I guess all the trade rumors are getting to Dontrelle...either that or three and a half seasons of negative karma have been shipped off to Milwaukee in David Bell's back pocket!
2006-07-29 17:01:09
494.   Bluebleeder87
I'm am so buzzing it right now! :O)
2006-07-29 17:05:15
495.   gpellamjr
494 How many are you up to by now?
2006-07-29 17:07:06
496.   Greg Brock
494 I'm dying to see where this is going.

I would advise, however, refraining from a Mel Gibson style rant against Jews. Just a suggestion.

2006-07-29 17:07:33
497.   thinkblue0
493-

elaborate on the Dontrelle rumors.

2006-07-29 17:11:25
498.   Andrew Shimmin
491- Excellent defensively, but his poor bat would stick out farther, there. And, it'd still be a waste. Izzy is a SS. He's good at it, why dilute that? If we're keeping him, shouldn't Furry be the one who gets moved?
2006-07-29 17:11:58
499.   JoeyP
As part of evaluating performance, such things should be taken into account, that is, if one's interested in being fair about it.

I think this is fair:
Izturis is a horrible hitter. You've offered no evidence as to why Izzy will be the .730-.760 OPS player that you projected to him be. Secondly, you've been touting the Izturis for 2nd base GG approach for awhile now. However, now it appears you've changed your mind. Thats fine, but dont act like you didnt just say a couple weeks ago that Izturis would be GG at 2nd. And I believe my response was that Izturis hadnt played 2nd base in 5 years, and it was unrealistic to put him there.

Its one thing to argue statistics that are apparent for everyone to see. Its another to argue conjecture and projection, without any evidence to back it up.

The problem with arguing defense is that its never a clear argument. One person can point to Rate2, and then someone else says to just disregard it. Another person can say, "We'll, Izzy might not be great, but give him time...I'm left wondering how long, and how many days of .620 OPS should the team have to suffer with"... So, you're back to just saying "I like what I see from this guy". We'll thats great, but pardon me if I tend to place 90% of evalutation into what I know to be true (Offensive statistics).

Its a lot easier to dismiss players when there are statistics to back them up. Its alot harder to buy into the stuff that defensive minded people say "just bc it cant be measured doesnt mean its not real".

Well, just bc it cant be measured doesnt mean you can place some high value on it either, and have it accepted as truth.

Izzy cant prevent pitchers from walking guys, giving up HRs. Izzy cant force pitchers to strike out batters. Thats where preventing runs (defense) all starts. Having 1 good defensive player at 2nd base, I'm sorry I just cant see it making a difference when the guy cant hit.

2006-07-29 17:13:19
500.   JoeyP
Assuming he really is 24

He's 26.
The Braves would have thought higher of him if he was 24.

Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2006-07-29 17:14:35
501.   Marty
496 I wopuld REALLY refrain from a Mel Gibson style drive through Malibu.
2006-07-29 17:15:06
502.   MartinBillingsley31
499

Very well said.
I totally agree 100%.

2006-07-29 17:17:44
503.   Bluebleeder87
494

put it this way "I feel god like" quoting a galegher brother (Oasis lead singer)

2006-07-29 17:18:14
504.   das411
497 - Basically all winter during their latest fire sale, up to that big streak they put together a couple weeks ago, most any MLB watcher had the D-train packing his bags for one of the NY or LA teams. This has been shuddered at by many a DT poster in the last month or so, but luckily for you Dontrelle's trade value is a little lower now than it was 3 innings ago :)
2006-07-29 17:21:16
505.   MartinBillingsley31
The more i think of the betemit trade the more i think it is a wash and maybe a bad trade, unless we eventually unload furcal's contract and put betemit at ss
Laroche > betemit at 3b
Kent/dewitt > betemit at 2b
Betemit = furcal, but a salary dump is a good thing, so we can get some pitching.
2006-07-29 17:24:20
506.   trainwreck
503
That was so hilarious when he said that. A very good quote to use.
2006-07-29 17:24:30
507.   Andrew Shimmin
505- The trade can be good without Betemit being a starter. Aybar wasn't expected to ever be a regular starter, in L.A., either.
2006-07-29 17:24:48
508.   overkill94
502 I'm still convinced MartinBillingsley and JoeyP are the same person
2006-07-29 17:27:05
509.   MartinBillingsley31
I'm still convinced MartinBillingsley and JoeyP are the same person

LOL!

We agree a lot.
And we really agree a lot if i think joeyp is who i think he is.

2006-07-29 17:27:41
510.   overkill94
507 Plus, automatically claiming Laroche and Dewitt will be better than Betemit without them even smelling a major league diamond is a mistake. Bottom line is that Betemit is a valuable asset to the team right now and should be a valuable asset in the future as either a starter or trade bait.

One way to look at it is that there weren't any Aybar for Linebrink rumors floating around out there.

2006-07-29 17:32:52
511.   overkill94
510 When I say "will be better", I pretty much mean next year; I love the prospects as much of any of you...well, maybe not nate :)
2006-07-29 17:33:24
512.   overkill94
"as much as" not "as much of"

I give up, I'm gonna go get some Subway

2006-07-29 17:34:01
513.   Andrew Shimmin
In order for the trade to be good, Betemit must be better than Aybar plus two months of Baez (which could be a negative value) plus two draft picks. I'm not sure it will be a good trade, but I'm pretty sure those are the parameters for judging it.

This leaves aside judging whether the trade is important. I'm not at all convinced that it is. It looks like an average, give or take, middle reliever plus a reserve IF plus cash for a reserve IF. It seems like if this trade makes a difference of two wins over the next three years, it'll be because something went very wrong, or one of the players got a whole lot better than could reasonably be expected.

2006-07-29 17:34:58
514.   thinkblue0
man, I really really don't want Willis. I wish I knew why everyone thinks he's so good.
2006-07-29 17:35:30
515.   confucius
503 Sounds like you've consumed something besides a few beers.
2006-07-29 17:39:41
516.   Uncle Miltie
485- thanks for the info on Hudson. I can't agree with you on Izzy though. As a SS, he has value thanks to his defense. When he is going well, his bat is fine for a SS. At any other position, he is below average offensively.
2006-07-29 17:41:30
517.   confucius
514 He is 24 with a career record of 52-34. He has a 3.41 career ERA and his K/BB is well over 2 to 1. He seems like he'll do nothing but improve.

That being said he does have some colossal meltdowns. seven run outings, etc.

2006-07-29 17:42:36
518.   thinkblue0
When he is going well, his bat is fine for a SS.

no, it's not.

And when is he ever going well?

2006-07-29 17:42:58
519.   MartinBillingsley31
man, I really really don't want Willis. I wish I knew why everyone thinks he's so good.

I don't want to give up the players it will take to get him, other than that i'd take him, but lets just sign a couple top notch free agent pitchers instead of giving up prospects and then having to sign mediocre veterans to fill the holes created by trading for willis or signing carlos lee for example at an outragious price.
I'd rather spend money on pitching since we are thin on starting pitching in the minors/prospects.
We have all the offense we need for the immediate future with our prospects, why give it up for willis and then make mistakes with free agent position players.

2006-07-29 17:47:08
520.   thinkblue0
He is 24 with a career record of 52-34. He has a 3.41 career ERA and his K/BB is well over 2 to 1. He seems like he'll do nothing but improve.

nothing but improve? He's gotten worse since last year. He's already given up more HR than he did all of last year, his Whip is 30 points higher, and his K/BB is not well over 2 to 1. It's 1.96...I don't know where you got well over 2:1.

2006-07-29 17:47:53
521.   confucius
516 Preach it!
2006-07-29 17:49:24
522.   das411
See what I was talkin about, thinkblue0?
2006-07-29 17:52:51
523.   confucius
520 543 K 221 BB

He is 24. The majority of pitchers do not peak at 24. If you want to just look at his stats for this year and deny what he has done throughout his career I'm not going to debate with you.

2006-07-29 17:55:24
524.   thinkblue0
522-

umm..I have no idea what you're referring to.

523-

I thought you were referring to this year's numbers. I'm sorry, but I'm not giving up top notch prospects for a guy who has had one single good year. 2004 was average, 2005 great, now average again. I'm more inclinded to believe that this is the real Willis and not the one we saw last year.

2006-07-29 17:55:28
525.   trainwreck
Willis is a Giants fan and continues to be one.

Just throwing it out there, not saying it necessarily matters.

2006-07-29 18:04:25
526.   confucius
524 I definitely agree that it will take too much to get him. However I would love to see him at the top of the Dodgers rotation. I don't know what the "real" willis is, but If I was to guess I would say he'll improve rather than digress simply because of his age and quality of pitches. But yeah, I would not want Willis at the price of three of our best prospects which I am guessing would be what they wanted. They aren't paying him that much so it isn't like he must be moved. I would assume that he won't go anywhere. Don't the Marlins have a 14 million dollar payroll?
2006-07-29 18:10:44
527.   thinkblue0
I don't know what the "real" willis is, but If I was to guess I would say he'll improve rather than digress simply because of his age and quality of pitches.

Can someone post the list of players he's most compared to...forget where I saw it, but it isn't good. Willis is an average pitcher. He's one of the most overrated players in the game right now...I'd much rather go after Schmidt/Zito.

2006-07-29 18:16:34
528.   MartinBillingsley31
I'd much rather go after Schmidt/Zito.

Bingo!
And those 2 will not cost us prospects.
Win Win.
I'd rather spend money than prospects.

2006-07-29 18:16:58
529.   das411
524 - As requested in 497, I present The Dontrelle Willis Debate! Although I should point out that he has had more success than "one single good year", iirc his 2003 was pretty darn good until he tired out in the playoffs...

Hey Link (or anybody else who reads trashy paperbacks), have you read this one?

http://tinyurl.com/k8dem

A 2006 version might be fun, with COLE HAMELS as the Phillies-starter-turned-secret-agent, no?

2006-07-29 18:18:12
530.   regfairfield
527
The good: Jim Kaat
The bad: Steve Avery, Ismael Valdez, Jim Abbott. Guys who had amazing starts to their careers, then flamed out by 27.
2006-07-29 18:20:44
531.   regfairfield
530 Dick Ellsworth, Mark Mulder and maybe Mark Buerhle with his plummeting K rate should go on the bad list as well.
2006-07-29 18:25:10
532.   confucius
Clemens had a pretty amazing start, but he didn't flame out.
2006-07-29 18:29:40
533.   regfairfield
532 Clemens isn't one of his comparables.
2006-07-29 18:32:52
534.   confucius
533 Why not?
2006-07-29 18:35:57
535.   regfairfield
533 Because his career isn't similar? I'm a bit puzzled by the question.
2006-07-29 18:39:07
536.   dsfan
500

I'm not backing off on Izturis being Gold Glove caliber or excellent at 2B -- but as I spelled out, it's only fair to grant him a transitional period to acclimate.

If you inferred that I believe he shouldn't be at 2B as a result, or that he'll subpar there as he adjust, nothing could be further from the truth.

Even as he acclimates, Izturis is still so good defensively that he should be better than average at 2B -- better there than anyone presently on the 40-man roster.

And that's a good thing for this pitching staff.

By the way, you conveniently and habitually omit context from my posts.

If you want to parse the difference between excellent and Gold Glove-caliber, knock yourself out. My later acknowledgement there was that Hudson is so good, the Gold Glove standard in the NL is higher than I first realized.

2006-07-29 18:40:02
537.   confucius
What are the criteria? I'm simply asking. You don't need to be puzzled. I'm being straight forward.
2006-07-29 18:55:06
538.   dsfan
498-

We agree that Izturis' value dilutes once he moves off SS.

My belief is that the Dodgers should keep him for the remainder of this season because his value at 2B and his offseason trade value combine to exceed what you can get from him in a trade this month. (I'm not assuming Kent will be OK and even if he is Izzy covers you at three spots)

But that assumes the Blue Jays don't succumb to irrational exuberance and that contenders' shortstops stay healthy. Perhaps the ante will rise in the next 48 hours or so.

And as you probably know, I think Izturis at 2B is a boon to this pitching staff, even as he acclimates to a position that he hasn't played regularly in several years.

2006-07-29 18:55:56
539.   Andrew Shimmin
All the pitchers on regfairfield's list are left handed. Baseball-Reference's similarity scores explanation page: http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/similarity.shtml
2006-07-29 19:03:30
540.   confucius
539 I looked at that but the names listed as his comparables were different. Maybe he has another source.
2006-07-29 19:05:08
541.   overkill94
So Grady claims that Saito "overloaded his circuits a little bit" during his outing wednesday. Anybody know what to make of this?
2006-07-29 19:07:58
542.   confucius
Valdez is right handed.
2006-07-29 19:08:38
543.   Greg Brock
If you're watching Baseball Tonight, you know that the Dodgers made an offer for Soriano, countering Bowden's ridiculous asking price (Kemp or Martin and Billz).

Ned and his mustache will be on ESPN at 9:00 tonight.

2006-07-29 19:10:42
544.   Andrew Shimmin
542- Oops, you're right. I wasn't paying close enough attention. BB-ref's similarity scores don't include this year's numbers, so that may account for the different players. Although, that wouldn't really make sense, since only Valdez is on both lists. Maybe he's using BP subscriber similarity scores, to which I don't have access.
2006-07-29 19:11:08
545.   Daniel Zappala
538 I don't mean to pick on you, but this is what bugs me when we play amateur GMs:

his value at 2B and his offseason trade value combine to exceed what you can get from him in a trade this month

We don't know what his trade value is because we are not privy to the phone calls that the GMs are exchanging. So we have no way of knowing whether he will be worth more in the offseason than he is now.

Perhaps the ante will rise in the next 48 hours or so.

We have no way of determining what the ante is now nor whether it will be rising. We have no idea whether Colletti would even consider trading him, given his ability at several positions, nor do we know if anyone is even asking for him.

2006-07-29 19:12:27
546.   Mark Joseph
527, 530
Whence that list of comps to Dontrelle? On Baseball-reference.com I find this (through age 23):

Ramon Martinez (973)
Britt Burns (971)
Ross Grimsley (964)
Nig Cuppy (961)
Wally Bunker (960)
Dave McNally (960)
Bob Moose (958)
Lefty Gomez (955) *
Robin Roberts (955) *
Ismael Valdez (954)

Seems to me a fair chance of a decent career, and I'd go for him if he's not too expensive in terms of prospects. Ditto for Zito. I'd pass on Schmidt.

2006-07-29 19:14:07
547.   regfairfield
This list is from PECOTA.
2006-07-29 19:15:10
548.   Uncle Miltie
I was watching Baseball Tonight and I heard that Ned is making a counter offer for Soriano. Can we temporarily store Elbert and Dewitt in Cuba for the next 2 days?
2006-07-29 19:15:21
549.   Sam DC
Was out most of the day and missed all of the game.

See that I cursed Zimmerman by talking him up yesterday. Figures.

Skimming the game story, this seems like sort of the best version of what Nationals fans can expect this year and next. If the team fights, scores some runs, and stays in games, even if they only win 70-75 of them, the season can be endured. If things run more like yesterday, then obviously that's just grim.

2006-07-29 19:17:17
550.   MartinBillingsley31
I was watching Baseball Tonight and I heard that Ned is making a counter offer for Soriano.

Please no, don't do it ned.

Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2006-07-29 19:24:41
551.   JoeyP
Soriano only makes sense if what we give up is less than what 2 first round draft picks would end up being.. The draft is so risky, that even that is a large gamble.

However, if the team were to sign Zito and Schmidt, they'd also need to recoup the picks that they lose from that scenario. Sorianio/Nomar leaving would probably do the trick.

2006-07-29 19:26:40
552.   overkill94
Did they just say the Dodgers made a trade offer for Tejada? Sounds like those talks are dead, but I'm curious what was offered.
2006-07-29 19:28:50
553.   gpellamjr
550-551 So, what would be a worthwhile trade offer for Soriano? I mean, we don't know what people are offering, but what would be not-too-expensive? Would it be worth it to trade a couple of top prospects if they were able to negotiate an extension in advance? Of course I know Bowden won't have it, but I'd be interested to know what you all think.
2006-07-29 19:29:56
554.   trainwreck
If Elbert or DeWitt are traded for Soriano there will be heck to pay I tells ya, heck.
2006-07-29 19:42:18
555.   Uncle Miltie
-In case anyone's curious (and judging by my e-mails, many are), the Dodgers are still buyers, not sellers, despite their 1-12 second-half start. "We're still looking to improve,'' GM Ned Colletti said.

-The Dodgers are offering Kenny Lofton around, not because Alyssa Milano's boyfriend (a.k.a. Brad Penny) yelled at him for alleged lack of hustle but maybe because he doesn't make plays like he used to.

-Shawn Green has told folks he expects to be traded.

SI.com

Ned is my hero if he trades Lofton and gets anything of value in return.

2006-07-29 19:46:36
556.   JoeyP
I mean, we don't know what people are offering, but what would be not-too-expensive?

I'd offer Guzman and possibly some other B prospects. I wouldnt trade any pitchers.

2006-07-29 19:47:18
557.   gpellamjr
556 Any chance Soriano could be re-signed?
2006-07-29 19:51:43
558.   JoeyP
I wouldnt resign him until I had two #1/#2 starters signed.
Considering the already tight budget (I think 84 mils already committed to 2007), the left over money needs to be going to signing high end pitching.

If the Dodgers, after signing those difference making pitchers, still have room in their budget then I'd make Soriano an offer. But Soriano would be like 3rd on my priority list...

2006-07-29 19:56:09
559.   Jon Weisman
Wow, Christina Kahrl at Baseball Prospectus loved the Betemit trade for the Dodgers.
2006-07-29 20:33:09
560.   ToyCannon
BA Take on the Deal:
L.A. Finds Third Baseman In Betemit
By Jim Callis

"Betemit, who was traded on his 26th birthday, was pursued by several teams looking for an upgrade at the hot corner. With Chipper Jones at third base in Atlanta, Betemit served as a utilityman and hit .281/.344/.497 with nine homers and 29 RBIs in 88 games this season. A switch-hitter, he's much more effective from the left side, showing the ability to hit for average with at least gap power. His speed and range are just so-so, but he has good hands and a strong arm. Betemit likely won't be eligible for arbitration until after the 2008 season. He's a career .281/.341/.432 hitter with 13 homers and 52 RBIs in 233 games."

"Aybar, 23, set a then-record for Dominicans when he signed for $1.4 million in 2000. He batted .326 in a September callup last year, but didn't hit well enough to keep the third-base job after Mueller got hurt. Aybar has hit .250/.356/.414 with three homers and 22 RBIs in 43 games this season. The older brother of prime Angels shortstop prospect Erick Aybar, Willy is an offensive-minded player who doesn't profile perfectly at any position. He has a line-drive bat, strong arm and sound hands, but he lacks the range for second base and the home run power for third. Likely to fill Betemit's former utility role in Atlanta, Aybar won't be eligible for arbitration until after the 2008 season at the earliest. He has hit .280/.394/.430 with four homers and 32 RBIs in 69 big league games. "

2006-07-29 20:44:34
561.   natepurcell
Callis should know better then to use Betemits fake age.
2006-07-29 21:13:00
562.   Bluebleeder87
does anybody still think Izzy is on his way out in 2 days?
2006-07-29 21:22:46
563.   Bluebleeder87
I don't know that's why I'm asking.
2006-07-29 21:33:13
564.   Eric L
I'm listening to Baseball Tonight (not actively watching) and Buster Olney seems to link the Dodgers to every major name on the market.
2006-07-29 21:33:41
565.   StolenMonkey86
Dodgers.com on why Grady used Broxton

Then Little gave the ball to Jonathan Broxton for the ninth. Which means he didn't give the ball to Takashi Saito, who has been the closer for the past month. The explanations on Saito were murky.

Little said Saito "overloaded a circuit" while making 37 pitches in a relief appearance Wednesday night and was not available Saturday. In that game, Saito allowed three runs to the Padres. Through an interpreter, Saito first said he was "a little bit tired" from that game, then said he had "a little discomfort," but added that he would be available Sunday.

Little also had Brett Tomko available. Tomko, who moved into the late-inning role Danys Baez had until his Friday trade, made his first relief appearance as a Dodger Friday night, and Little chose not to subject him to an immediate acid test, instead going with Broxton.

So I don't think they were shopping him, but at the same time, Saito is 36

2006-07-29 21:34:21
566.   tjshere
562 My guess would be that with the uncertain timetable for Kent's return, Flanders is a little less eager to deal Izzy than he was a week or so ago, even though Izzy probably doesn't fit too well in the Dodgers' long-range plans. Again, just a guess. I have no stats or sources to back that up with.

If Izzy does get dealt, I'm really hoping Flanders will hold out for something of decent value in return instead of dumping him like so much flotsam a la Navarro.

2006-07-29 21:37:25
567.   blue22
But do we need Izturis and Ramon Martinez? I've never liked having both these guys on the roster, especially since they both stopped hitting a month ago. Good thing Furcal's hitting.
2006-07-29 21:40:53
568.   StolenMonkey86
562 - no clue. I don't see teams reconfiguring their infield defense during the regular season, or if any team is really suffering from their shortstop's defense.
2006-07-29 21:44:32
569.   blue22
568 - Toronto is, and in a big way.
2006-07-29 21:52:33
570.   StolenMonkey86
557 - the big question mark is how much money do the Dodgers have. If they get Soriano, though, I would guarantee that he stays, but also that JD Drew would be on his way out.
2006-07-29 21:53:57
571.   StolenMonkey86
569 - hrm, that would be interesting. Let's see if we can top Prokopec or Ricketts
2006-07-29 21:56:51
572.   StolenMonkey86
Report out of Vegas: Matt Kemp has two walks, and has tripled. Guzman's having a great day, 3-3 so far with a double and a homer, though he did get caught stealing.
2006-07-29 21:57:08
573.   StolenMonkey86
Osoria in a save situation
2006-07-29 21:57:27
574.   Greg Brock
569If the Rays can't sign Julio Lugo to an extension in the next day or so, I think he's on his way to Toronto. My guess, anyway.
2006-07-29 22:00:22
575.   StolenMonkey86
What would the Blue Jays have available?
2006-07-29 22:07:20
576.   Greg Brock
The Jays have a little minor league pitching, and Andrew Friedman always talks about loading up with young pitchers, years and years away from arbitration/free agency.
2006-07-29 22:11:50
577.   StolenMonkey86
given how poor the Dodgers are in pitching prospects, that may not be a bad move
2006-07-29 22:14:43
578.   Fallout
555 Uncle Miltie

Lofton is always on the trading block at this time of the year.

2006-07-29 22:15:08
579.   StolenMonkey86
but, yeah, now that you mention it, I've seen they've even used Glaus there enough for him to have shortstop eligibility in my fantasy league
2006-07-29 22:19:16
580.   Linkmeister
529 Why do you assume I read trashy paperbacks?

Besides, that one's 432 pages long; by definition a trashy paperback can't be more than 200.

2006-07-29 22:20:24
581.   StolenMonkey86
I wonder if the Blue Jays will also try to get us to take Jason Phillips back
2006-07-29 22:29:50
582.   gibsonhobbs88
574- Isn't Lugo more an offensive SS? Toronto has enough bats, they do lack a consistent defender at SS and they could afford to have a black hole offensively at short but someone like Izzy who can really pick it. It would be ironic as Izzy was originally a Blue Jay property. The Dodgers, of course cannot afford to have another black hole in the lineup sucking the life out of the offense.
2006-07-29 22:33:55
583.   gibsonhobbs88
581-No, No. A B level horror film that scares the faint-hearted Dodger fan, "Phillips comes back as the catcher who couldn't block the plate or throw"! "No one will be seated during the harrowing double steal sequence".
2006-07-29 22:41:49
584.   StolenMonkey86
582 - Black hole? Pardon my pun, but I'm afraid you're exaggerating the gravity of the situation.

I think Toronto would be good. Who do they have in their minor league system?

2006-07-29 22:42:08
585.   Greg Brock
Lugo is definitely not a good defensive shortsop, but he's not exactly a trainwreck either. He's also reasonably priced. You can never have enough bats in the AL east.
2006-07-29 22:44:50
586.   StolenMonkey86
Heh, yeah, I think Colletti is operating in "Good Ned" mode now.

As for Phillips, I saw him strike out in Richmond a couple of months ago, and that was not a pretty swing.

2006-07-29 22:45:42
587.   dzzrtRatt
After listening to a little bit of the Padres' post-game talk show tonight, I have a bit more admiration for Colletti's ability to land a good third baseman, which is a position the Padres are desperate to fill.
2006-07-29 22:48:26
588.   gibsonhobbs88
584-Point taken, just exaggeration and hyperbole to make a point is how I see it done here at DT.:) At least we won 2 in a row and will not suffer the embarrassment of going 0 for the homestand. Clock is ticking, 38 hours and 12 minutes to the trade deadline.
2006-07-29 22:52:38
589.   gibsonhobbs88
We get to see Wilson Betemit tomorrow in his first game in the blue. Hope the fans attending the game give him a warm welcome. Hope he has a good day, as hope springs eternal. Good thing also, the hated Giants have lost 6 in a row, the last two to the lowly Pirates. Ol Trace giving the battery chucking no-cals some trouble, Go Bucs!!
2006-07-29 22:55:56
590.   StolenMonkey86
Ol Trace giving the battery chucking no-cals some trouble, Go Bucs!!

I thought it was the Phillies that threw batteries . . .

2006-07-29 22:57:58
591.   blue22
573 - Does anyone know if Osoria is still producing those out of sight G:F ratios like he was last year in LA?
2006-07-29 23:15:34
592.   StolenMonkey86
Ok, Izturis, for which Toronto minor league pitcher if we go for it? Here are the two whose numbers got my attention (and who were among the youngest above single A). Does anyone have any more knowledge about these players, or whether I missed the elephant in the Blue Jays minor league system?

Davis Romero is 23 and in AAA. He DOB is listed 3/30/83, and he's a 5'10" lefty. He got promoted from AA to AAA a month and a half ago. In AA, his K/9 was 8.55 and he had a 3.68 K/BB. He had 12 stars there. In AAA, he apparently had 3 starts and 9 relief appearances, and the numbers he put up there were 6.41 K/9, but with a 3.83 K/BB.

Out of AA, Jesse Litsch has a really nice K/BB, and good K numbers from single A, but he's getting hit a bit much (bad defense?). He's only 21 (DOB 3-9-85), and he's a 6'1" right hander.

2006-07-29 23:16:06
593.   Xeifrank
Late to chime in on the subject, but personally I have no problem with the Baez/Aybar-Betemit trade. I think it's an even trade. I will save my emotion for a more important trade (if one comes).
vr, Xei
2006-07-29 23:37:34
594.   StolenMonkey86
Ok, a quick glance at Baseball America's list shows what I know about the Blue Jays minor league system. Ricky Romero (related to Davis?) is a more highly touted prospect, as he was their high pick last year, with a $2.4 million signing bonus.

Kyle Yates, another AA pitcher that I apparently omitted, was rated as having the best curveball in the system. In 17 games (15 starts), he has a 2.52 K/BB and a 7.24 K/9. He's a 5-11 right-hander born 1-8-83. He was a 13th round pick in 2004 out of University of Texas.

2006-07-29 23:55:26
595.   Eric Enders
595 Romero is considered to be no more than a future #4 starter. The Jays simply picked him in the first round because they needed immediate pitching help and he was the closest to being big-league ready of the pitchers who were left in the pool.

It was sort of a Jeremy Guthrie pick, and will probably turn out about as well.

2006-07-30 00:50:39
596.   Uncle Miltie
From the daily news
Big deal possibly in works

It once appeared that Monday's non-waiver trading deadline would pass without the Dodgers making a significant move. But with the club already having acquired reliever Elmer Dessens and infielder Wilson Betemit in the past week, it now appears that a more significant trade - or perhaps even two - could be on the way.

The Dodgers are believed to be among the primary suitors for two of the game's elite players in Baltimore shortstop Miguel Tejada and Washington left fielder Alfonso Soriano, as well as one of its all-time greats in Chicago Cubs pitcher Greg Maddux.

Tejada appears to be the most likely acquisition of the three, but he probably would cost the Dodgers a significant young player or two. He also is in just the third season of a six-year, $72 million contract that is heavily backloaded, with Tejada due to receive $38 million over the next three seasons.

Any deal for Tejada would involve either him or Rafael Furcal changing positions, probably to second base, and create a logjam of middle- and left-side infielders with Betemit and Cesar Izturis. Izturis, a former Gold Glove shortstop, probably would be included in a package of players going to the Orioles.

Tejada would be better than Soriano since he's not a rental, but I'd still be weary of trading for him. While he's a great hitter, his defense at SS is attrocious and he's not willing to move to another position. There's also the age factor. It's kind of hard to believe that Tejada is only 30. He's a great hitter and I love his durability, but his defense bothers me. Then there is the issue of what we would have to give up. I'm guessing that the Orioles will be asking for Billingsley, Guzman, Izturis, and another prospect. To get it done, Ned is going to have to trade Elbert. I'd rather not see this deal go down even though Tejada is one of my favorite players, going back to his days with the A's.

Tony Jackson seems to have pretty good "inside sources", but I think it's much more likely that we'll acquire Maddux than Tejada or Soriano.

2006-07-30 01:26:44
597.   Andrew Shimmin
As Biggie once said, "It's like the more money we come across/The more shortstops we need."
2006-07-30 01:39:37
598.   still bevens
Did anyone else catch the Ledee to Cleveland/NYY blurb in the newest LAT column? I wonder what he would fetch..?
2006-07-30 02:37:13
599.   JoeyP
It'd be sweet if Ned could trade Furcal and a couple prospects for Tejada.

I doubt it happens, but Furcal's making about the same amount of money as Tejada is the next couple years. This would be a very good deal.

If Tejada comes on board, and Furcal stays..That would not be good unless the McCourts plan to up payroll to 125 mils for 2007. There must be money left over for high end starting pitching.

Tejada for Furcal would be awesome.

2006-07-30 02:41:36
600.   JoeyP
The reason Furcal was so well liked to begin with was just bc he represented a big improvement over Izzy.

However, Tejada probably represents an even greater improvement over Furcal. It'll never happen, but Tejada for Furcal/Billingsley I would do in a heart beat, as long as the Dodgers dont have to pay any of Furcal's salary. Thats the deal Ned needs to get done.

Show/Hide Comments 601-650
2006-07-30 02:52:19
601.   JoeyP
So in the next 36Hrs Ned should:

#1. Trade Furcal/Billingsley for Tejada
#2. Trade Lofton, Cruz,Izturis,Ledee, Saito for anything he can get.
#3. Demote Jonathon Broxton to AA and put him in the rotation. Get him ready for next year. This year is done.

Offseason:
#1. Sign Schmidt/Zito both.

Next year's rotation:
#1. Penny
#2. Zito
#3. Schmidt
#4. Lowe
#5. Elbert or Broxton

Lineup:
C- Martin
RF- Drew
SS- Tejada
2b- Kent
CF- Kemp
LF- Ethier
3b- LaRoche/Betemit
1b- Loney (1st basemen bats 8th, y not)

2006-07-30 06:48:00
602.   Daniel Zappala
And if Zito and Schmidt don't sign? You know that's not completely in Colletti's power, right? So now you have traded away your most promising starter and left the rotation even weaker, with no guarantee that you can sign those two guys.

Any deal that gives up a significant pitcher should be a non-starter for the Dodgers.

2006-07-30 07:12:35
603.   gpellamjr
596 I've heard it said (maybe on Baseball Tonight last night?) that Tejada has said he would be willing to change positions.
2006-07-30 07:34:29
604.   Daniel Zappala
The news in the LA Times today was that Tejada would be *un*willing to change positions.
2006-07-30 07:39:12
605.   gpellamjr
604 Ugh.
2006-07-30 07:40:06
606.   Andrew Shimmin
Buying a shortstop who fields his position adequately, and then turning him in to something else is like shopping for undershirts at a Rolling Stones concert.
2006-07-30 09:20:45
607.   Blu2
I might as well weigh in on the trade and take my body slams. I'm not going to comment on any rumored or possible future trades because I realize I haven't the foggiest idea what he might do. And something tells me I will be much happier not delving into his mind...
Betemitt for Aybar/Baez: Aybar and Betemitt are so close in stats that it will be years (if ever) before anyone can really prove one is better than the other. I'm not in love with either one of them so I wouldn't bet a stick of chewing gum on the outcome. Baez; basically we DFAd him since we paid his salary too. All that we got for him was an open space on the roster! If your purpose was to get that opening, (you could get it by DFAing him), and your mug before the cameras, then the trade was a success. But in the real world, nothing happened; the team was neither hurt nor improved.
2006-07-30 09:36:18
608.   Marty
The news in the LA Times today was that Tejada would be un willing to change positions.

I'll say this for Cesar. It's nice that he overcame his early reluctance to change positions and is now willing to play anywhere they ask him. It's not often anymore that players will do that.

I'm in the camp that likes a good balance of offense and defense because it's very rare that you'll ever get an offense so overwhelming that you can ignore defense. I think you'll have long dry spells with that philosophy. Of course you can have long dry spells anyway as we've seen with this team.

That said, it still won't bother that much me if he is traded. I really do value Izzy for his defense, but his offense is really bad, especially since he hurt himself last year. If Cesar could just hit some more doubles he'd be incredibly valuable.

2006-07-30 09:47:41
609.   Bluebleeder87
The L.A. Times actually had some good stuff today.
2006-07-30 09:53:14
610.   das411
580 - Well it's that time of year, and this one read so quickly that it only felt like 200!

607 - But what about removing the negative value that is Danys Baez?

2006-07-30 10:02:35
611.   StolenMonkey86
594 - anyone know anything else about Kyle Yates in the Blue Jays' system?
2006-07-30 10:10:48
612.   Marty
In order to get close to the playoffs it's best to have pretty good pitching 1-5, but to win in the playoffs it's best to have a dominant 1-2 punch. So, if you can get a quality pitcher for a playoff run, you do it.

It occurred to me that perhaps, like dominant pitching, very strong defense is most crucial during the playoffs and the last few weeks run towards the playoffs. Errors are much more costly when more is at stake. You can blow off a loss caused by an error earlier in the season, but if one costs you a playoff game, it's devastating. Likewise if your ace gets beaten in the playoffs it's devastating.

Teams like to acquire good pitching later in the season. Boston did it with Schilling, right? But teams never try to shore up their defense for a pennant run. Obviously, one good defender is not as important as a good pitcher, but I wonder if it might not be something to consider.

2006-07-30 10:12:30
613.   das411
Actually Marty, the LAD have a shortstop/1B who might have something interesting to say about when teams try to shore up their defense for a playoff run...
2006-07-30 10:15:52
614.   Greg S
With Sutter going into the HOF, I thought I'd pass along a quick story. A few years ago I had a great converstation with a current HOFer. He told me the biggest change that he saw in baseball durring his long career was when the split fingered fastball started making it's way through the league. He said that really changed everything and made hitting much more difficult. He compared it to all of the other factors that make it hard to compare eras of baseball like plane travel, DH, training, etc. Anyway, I know Sutter didn't invent it but he was highly responsible for it's proliferation and according to one of the greats, that changed the game forever.
2006-07-30 10:18:38
615.   StolenMonkey86
612 - Boston got Schilling in the offseason.

Defense is critical, because it takes away hits. Especially if you have a groundball pitcher, he needs his defense in order to get outs.

2006-07-30 10:20:03
616.   LAT
I doubt Soriano will be coming to the Dodgers. Apparently, Ned wants him, has spoken to Bowden, but only offered Izzy. The Nat's actually like Izzy but want Bills too. It sounded like the Dodgers were not willing to part with Bills but I got the impression the conversations were not over. Bowden was not there. He was back at the hotel working the phones but Kasten was with us. He wants to re-sign Soriano and thinks he can, but the others, Bowden, and ownership want to move him for up and coming prospects (of course this could all be a ploy to increase value.) I believe Huston has a good shot at Soriano.

Sam, you will be happy to know they love Ryan Zimmerman. They are trying to sign him to a long term deal although he seems to think he is worth Furcal money. They are also big fans of Brian Schneider.

I will write more later but owed Sam at least this much.

Also got to spend a few minutes with Frank and Jamie.

2006-07-30 10:23:20
617.   StolenMonkey86
613 - The funny thing is, Nomar's defense has actually been a plus for him this year
2006-07-30 10:24:43
618.   Bluebleeder87
I'm watching the Braves vs Mets game, Aybar just popped up. I kind of feel bad for him he's known no other team than the Dodgers, I hope he has a long & great career.
2006-07-30 10:25:58
619.   StolenMonkey86
616 - Billz, no way. But what about Kuo and Izzy? If Izturis goes anywhere, I want to see him in DC, because then I can see him in a game.
2006-07-30 10:30:19
620.   Bluebleeder87
Met's winning 3-0, wow when was the last time somebody other than the Braves going to the post season.
2006-07-30 10:39:07
621.   MartinBillingsley31
Still a move to be made before first pitch to make room for Wilson Betemit, who becomes active today and is in the lineup:

Furcal, SS
Lofton, CF
Drew, RF
Ethier, LF
Betemit, 3B
Loney, 1B
Izturis, 2B
Hall, C
Hendrickson, P

From insidethedodgers.com

Still a move to be made before first pitch to make room for betemit?
And consider my 2 favorite candidates for a trade are in the lineup (izturis and lofton).

Something tells me i'm gonna be very dissapointed with ned pretty soon.

2006-07-30 10:39:30
622.   bhsportsguy
Today's lineup

Furcal, SS
Lofton, CF
Drew, RF
Ethier, LF
Betemit, 3B
Loney, 1B
Izturis, 2B
Hall, C
Hendrickson, P

2006-07-30 10:40:50
623.   bhsportsguy
621 My guess is that it is something like Ledee being moved or Cruz, Jr. being designated for assignment.
2006-07-30 10:42:08
624.   bhsportsguy
621 Also, since there is no way to get players to their new teams today, I would expect to hear about trades later in the day.
2006-07-30 10:43:10
625.   MartinBillingsley31
My guess is that it is something like Ledee being moved or Cruz, Jr. being designated for assignment.

I hope so, because i don't want to lose any of our prospects that have a strong chance of being on the team next year or elbert and dewitt.

2006-07-30 10:43:36
626.   Bluebleeder87
621

the last couple of days have been very awkward we have so much talent in the minors, I just hope Ned's Brain dosn't have a hik up.

2006-07-30 10:45:24
627.   Bluebleeder87
for anybody interested the braves are lossing badly 7-0 in the 2nd.
2006-07-30 10:48:38
628.   Jon Weisman
New game thread post with no Dodger news up top.
2006-07-30 10:49:02
629.   MartinBillingsley31
To tell you the truth since lefthander loney has been called up, i wouldn't be surprised to see lefthander ledee gone.
2006-07-30 10:51:19
630.   StolenMonkey86
629 - probably. I don't know if Loney stays up once Kent gets back from injury, though
2006-07-30 10:54:20
631.   Greg S
629/630 Right. Makes sense except that I don't know if the Dodgers want Loney riding the bench.
2006-07-30 11:00:55
632.   StolenMonkey86
Aybar just hit a line drive 2 RBI single
2006-07-30 11:20:29
633.   underdog
Well, since the Yankees are apparently about to acquire Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle (for who I don't know), I wonder if they'll want Ledee now after all, or whether they have anyone left to trade.

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