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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
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12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

1-0, Long Ago
2006-08-14 09:19
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

The last 1-0 extra-inning win for the Dodgers over the Giants prior to Sunday ended not with a bang, but a bruise. (Thanks to volunteers with Retrosheet and Bob Timmermann for passing this along.) Coincidentally, the game marked the first major league starts for Ron Cey and Davey Lopes, half of the Dodgers famous infield of the 1970s.

It was September 22, 1972. In the bottom of the 11th inning, San Francisco starting pitcher Jim Willoughby allowed two-out singles to Tom Paciorek and Cey (in his first game of the season and third of his career). He then walked pinch-hitter Manny Mota intentionally (with first base occupied). Batting for Bill Russell, Wes Parker, in the fourth-to-last game of his major league career, was hit by a pitch to win it.

Despite having to deal with six San Francisco baserunners in the first three innings, Don Sutton went all the way for the Dodgers, striking out 11 in 11 innings, allowing three hits and walking four. The Giants got a walk and a Russell error (his 29th of the season) in the first but stranded them. In the second, after reaching on a Cey error, Garry Maddox stole second but was thrown out at home trying to score on a Bobby Bonds single. Chris Speier and Ken Henderson led off the third with a walk and a single but were left in scoring position.

Sutton then retired 18 Giants in a row and 25 of his final 27. He was allowed to bat with two on and two out in the seventh inning but grounded out.

Attendance for the game, which featured two teams eliminated from the division race, was 20,622.

Making his major league debut, Lopes led off and went 0 for 5. So Russell, Cey and Lopes started together in the infield for the first time in this game. Steve Garvey was still a struggling third baseman who lost playing time to Cey over the season's final two weeks. Garvey began 1973 as a reserve and even started in left field for several games before moving to first base for good in June.

Just to finish this tangent, on June 13, Paciorek started at first base but moved to center field when Willie Davis left the game in the top of the fourth. Garvey replaced Paciorek at first, and was together in an infield with Cey, Russell and Lopes for the first time ... for all of three innings. After batting for Mota in the bottom of the sixth, Lee Lacy stayed in the game at second base, and Lopes moved to center field.

In the second game of a doubleheader June 23, Garvey, Lopes, Russell and Cey started together as an infield for the first time.

Update: Aside from the 1973 New York Mets, the Dodgers can become the team that was in last place the latest in a season before winning a division or league title, Mike Carminati writes at Mike's Baseball Rants. Admittedly, the significance of last place has changed as baseball has expanded.

Comments (281)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-08-14 09:43:05
1.   Suffering Bruin
I'm going to take a stab and say that Sutton threw more than 98 pitches? Great memory, Jon, and thanks for sharing.

I just got back from four days, three nights in Bakersfield. I was visiting my sister-in-law with the wife and kid. And yes, we are very, very, very glad to be back.

2006-08-14 10:13:18
2.   Bob Timmermann
I heartily recommend Mike's Baseball Rants if you want to know about teams springing back to life from the dead or jumping over teams in the standings.
2006-08-14 10:16:25
3.   Sam DC
Nats blogger (from Jon's old home All-Baseball.com) Oleander and Morning Glories on the ROY race:

"As for Zimmerman, the ROY race looks like it's going to go down to the wire. Some numbers you might be interested in:

Ryan Zimmerman: .291 / .362 / .483 15HRs 75RBI
Dan Uggla (FLA): .292 / .349 /.516 19HRs 67RBI
Prince Fielder (MIL): .282 / .350 / .502 22HRs 59RBI
Andre Ethier (LA): .345 / .391 / .559 11HRs 47RBI

Josh Johnson (FLA): 10-6 2.69 ERA 56BB/109K

Right now, even though he's played in about 30 less games, I see Ethier bringing the trophy home. Voters are easily swayed by winning teams, and if the Dodgers pull off the NL West, I think Andre has to be the front-runner. "

http://www.all-baseball.com/oleanders/

2006-08-14 10:16:47
4.   popup
Jon, I think I remember Orel won an extra inning game 1-0 against the Padres in 1988 during his streak. I am going on memory and my memory may be faulty. I am pretty sure the game was 0-0 after 9 innings.

1-0 extra inning Dodger wins must be rare. The 16 inning 1-0 game in 1963 against the Cardinals that I wrote about last night I assume is the longest such game by innings in Dodger history. I saw Sandy pitch a 1-0 10 inning game against the Pirates in 1965 at Dodger Stadium when Roberto Clemente dropped a fly ball to allow the winning run to score.

Stan from Tacoma

2006-08-14 10:18:45
5.   Greg S
Not an extra inning affair but I think I remember Bob Welch throwing a 1-0 shutout and hitting a home run to account for the Dodger run. But I've been remembering other things that didn't happen so who knows.
2006-08-14 10:22:44
6.   Jon Weisman
4 - We're just talking about vs. the Giants here. The game you're thinking of, Orel broke Drysdale's record but left with a no decision. The Dodgers ended up losing.
2006-08-14 10:23:35
7.   Jon Weisman
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B09280SDN1988.htm
2006-08-14 10:28:16
8.   Eric Stephen
5 Bob Welch beat the Reds on June 17, 1983.

http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B06170LAN1983.htm

The win put the Dodgers up 4.5 games on Atlanta, in the NL West LA would end up winning.

2006-08-14 10:30:01
9.   popup
I had forgotten it was a loss. Another 1-0 extra inning Dodger loss I remember was when Nate Oliver dropped an infield popup to allow the winning run to score. Glad nothing like that happened yesterday.

Stan from Tacoma

2006-08-14 10:38:56
10.   Rob M
6 I was there! drove down to san diego on the hunch that the game could be scoreless after 9 and go to extra innings. crazy as that sounds, remember that orel was unbelievable in that stretch, pitching like maddux yesterday every time out, and the dodger offense was almost equally unbelievably bad.
2006-08-14 10:40:23
11.   GoBears
3 That'd be fun, but it seems to me that voters value RBI above all else. And while team record shouldn't matter for any individual award, I think it matters more for MVP/Cy Young than for ROY.

Ethier likely won't have enough PAs to qualify for the batting title, and I seriously doubt he'll close the RBI gap with Zimmerman much if at all.

2006-08-14 10:46:25
12.   Rob M
Speaking of Dodger-Giant pitching gems, when I was at Stanford I saw Ramon Martinez throw a shutout in Candlestick where he had 15 K's, if I remember correctly. Should be sometime in the late 80's.
2006-08-14 10:49:38
13.   Bob Timmermann
It was just 11 strikeouts in that game for Ramon Martinez. And Jay Howell had to get the last out.
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B09260LAN1989.htm
2006-08-14 10:59:07
14.   Jonny6
LA Times headline from today's paper:
"This Victory is Grade-Eh"
The eh is a "witty" take on Martin's Canadian background. Quite possibly the worst headline imaginable, especially considering it was probably the most memorable game of the season thus far.
Who writes these things?
2006-08-14 11:05:46
15.   Greg Brock
15 Sometimes the LA Times is trying to outdo the Sprinfield Shopper of Simpsons fame:

"Bumblebee Man Caught in Sting."

2006-08-14 11:06:31
16.   Greg Brock
Grr, I meant 14. Stupid fingers, always messin' up.
2006-08-14 11:09:24
17.   Bob Timmermann
14
There likely was a copy editor waiting all year to use that headline.
2006-08-14 11:09:29
18.   the OZ
11 I agree that it's a muddy picture. The first national writer to frame the criterion he believes to be most important will likely determine the winner.

Zimmerman has the RsBI and plays in an East Coast Market™. Ditto for Uggla except add that he's a middle infielder and has more HRs. Fielder would win if the voters value power and pedigree the most.

Still, I think that batting average will mean a lot to voters. That .340 number really stands out more than anything else among the frontrunners. I can see the rationale being something like: 'the guy hit .340! How can he NOT be Rookie of the Year?'

2006-08-14 11:10:02
19.   scareduck
Jim Paciorek: brother of John Paciorek, the man with the longest perfect hitting record in major league history: 3-3 with two walks.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/paciojo01.shtml

But clearly, Jim was the best of the three brothers.

2006-08-14 11:10:46
20.   D4P
16
Man Fingers Fingers as Culprit in Digit Mess Up
2006-08-14 11:17:02
21.   Bob Timmermann
I am related to a man who once had a headline in the UCLA Daily Bruins of "Bruins Welp Themselves to a Schrempf Cocktail" so I am not going to cast any stones.
2006-08-14 11:18:12
22.   Marty
The worst sports headline I've seen is from a small Illinois paper in the early Eightioes when Milwaukee was in the series. Robin Yount had a big game and the headline was InsurYountable
2006-08-14 11:18:14
23.   Sam DC
18 I do think that Zimmerman has a few things going for him: (1) leads in hits and doubles as well as RsBI (when I last looked) -- those are some popular traditional stats, (2) stellar defensive play at a sexy position (from my eyeballing, he's an arguable gold glove candidate except for being a rookie on a crummy team), (3) Frank Robinson has blessed him, and (4) a number of big late-inning hits (including gamewinner v. the Yankees and first mlb home run off Wagner to tie a game v. The Mets).

But I don't think Zimmerman will overcome playing on a last place team.

2006-08-14 11:24:28
24.   Sam DC
With that said (23), did Zimmerman's baserunning gaffe yesterday get national play? Down by one in the eighth, Zimmerman got a one-out single off tough Mets' underhand pitcher Chad Bradford. After a really long pitching change, Nick Johnson hit a deep fly to left. Thing is, Zimmerman just ran hard head down all the way to third. Seems he forgot how many outs there were. So the Mets basically walked the ball in, tossed it around the infield a bit, and then finally doubled him off first. It was a pretty big rookie flub, although Chris at Capitol Punishment did point out that by rights first base coach Davey Lopes ought to have reset the situation for Zimmerman after the pitching change.
2006-08-14 11:28:30
25.   Jon Weisman
24 - First I've heard about it. But then again, Dan Uggla.
2006-08-14 11:30:56
26.   Sam DC
I sort of thought the sportscenter scene would replay it a bunch because the video of Zimmerman just standing there between second and third while the Mets basically walk the ball from centerfield back to first to double him off, in a one-run game no less, was a pretty compelling (if sort of sickening) visual.
2006-08-14 11:31:52
27.   Marty
The Kansas City starter, Luke Hudson, gave up 10 earned runs in 1/3 of the first inning yesterday.

Tough day.

2006-08-14 11:35:49
28.   Jon Weisman
27 - That, I did see. I believe ESPN said he was the first pitcher to give up 11 runs in the first inning since Kid Nichols in 1897.
2006-08-14 11:36:57
29.   Greg Brock
20 Touche
2006-08-14 11:38:48
30.   Marty
Wasn't Kid Nichols the manager of the Blacksox as well?
2006-08-14 11:39:16
31.   Marty
Nope, I guess not.
2006-08-14 11:39:21
32.   Bob Timmermann
Kid Gleason managed the Black Sox.
2006-08-14 11:39:48
33.   Bob Timmermann
Some people believe that it was John Mahoney who managed the Black Sox.
2006-08-14 11:40:21
34.   Greg Brock
30 I think that was Gleason.
2006-08-14 11:41:08
35.   Greg Brock
Fingers clearly not getting a job done.
2006-08-14 11:41:33
36.   Marty
I think Lo Duca was on that team...
2006-08-14 11:42:30
37.   Bob Timmermann
Kid Gleason replaced Pants Rowland as manager of the White Sox in 1919.

I just like the name of Pants Rowland.

2006-08-14 11:44:56
38.   Marty
How do you get a name like Pants?
2006-08-14 11:46:03
39.   Greg Brock
He started in baseball at age nine, where he earned his nickname, "Pants", from base-running antics while wearing his father's overalls at games of the Dubuque (Iowa) Ninth Street Blues.

Wikipedia...Now 29% less wrong!

2006-08-14 11:46:19
40.   Jon Weisman
Pants was a dehydrated Doberman.
2006-08-14 11:48:04
41.   Linkmeister
33 Yeah, but wasn't Rothstein the GM?
2006-08-14 11:48:31
42.   bigcpa
Ethier is going to have to hit .325+ to get the ROY. I don't see how .310/15/70 can top .280/30/90 from Fielder for instance. The Dodgers should put together a highlight reel of his 7 assists to give him a tiebreaker with the glove.
2006-08-14 11:49:05
43.   Jon Weisman
Many people aren't aware that the famous song in "The Sound of Music" was originally titled, "How Do You Solve a Problem Like Pants?"
2006-08-14 11:50:58
44.   Sam DC
What's the Sports Journalist Code have to say about reporting locker room quotes that contain heavy profanity? The mlb.com article I linked in the last thread has this quote: "'I am not hurt,' Schneider said. 'I am sick of people telling me I am hurt. I am done with people. Because I didn't throw 50 percent this year, people say I am hurt.'" I just saw video, however, and Schnieder actually swore at least four times in making this statement. But the quote doesn't include any indication that it has been edited, or even any introductory language showing that it was a "profanity-laced tirade" or somesuch.

Sorry for running up the comment counter this morning; I've got to squeeze in all my Nats Notes before I go away on Wednesday.

2006-08-14 11:53:45
45.   Greg Brock
43 See, and I thought it was from Gene Kelly's classic movie "Invitation to the Pants."
2006-08-14 11:54:21
46.   Bob Timmermann
I thought Pants Rowland got his nickname because he wore pants and all the other good nicknames were taken.

Socks Seybold did not play for Pants Rowland.

2006-08-14 11:54:45
47.   Icaros
I'm fine if Ethier doesn't get ROY. I'm afraid he'll turn into Todd Hollandsworth.
2006-08-14 11:54:51
48.   bhsportsguy
Don't know if this was brought up, the last time the Dodgers won 4 straight 1-run games was in May 2003 (1 over Florida and then a 3 game sweep of Colorado), both streaks were at home.

Makes sense the last time it took place was during that season.

From watching and listening from afar, that game yesterday may have to go on Jon's list,if he has one, of the greatest regular season games in Dodger Stadium history. You had a nationally televised game, a 300 game winner vs. 700 home run hitter, (which will be repeated on Saturday at SBC), 55,000 in the house, 2 pitchers on their game so the game was fast paced, no pitching changes, and since no scoring, every at bat was key.
Finally, the latest candidate for Mr. H&S of the Dodgers hits a walkoffer (BTW, I despise the term walkoff (thank you ESPN)) and the place goes wild.

The only thing that could keep this from being an all time classic is the fact that it was not in September and that the Giants are playing so badly right now.

But it was certainly a game to remember.

2006-08-14 11:55:51
49.   3upn3down
Much like the 2004 CFB season when Leinart won the heisman, but Bush won the team MVP award, I can see Ethier winning the ROY, but Martin winning a team version of the ROY (assuming they have an award like that of course).
2006-08-14 11:55:59
50.   Greg Brock
I'm guessing that Shirtsleeves Lowenstein never made it to the majors.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-08-14 11:56:22
51.   Jonny6
I'm not a fan of Joe Morgan, but I don't find him as utterly repugnant as many here at DT do so I watched (and listened) to yesterday's game on ESPN. Morgan strikes me much as the majority of ex-athletes turn broadcasters do - their analysis primarily consists of pointing out the painfully obvious and talking about how things were during the good ol' days of their playing careers. Miller is actually the more troublesome of the pair for me. He's an enjoyable enough play-by-play announcer, but he has his own personal "pronunciation" for just about every player in the game, especially the foreign born players. Yesterday's game featured at bats by Bet-a-meet (accent on the last syllable) and Say-to. Plenty of announcers butcher player names, but Miller just seems to pull the pronunciations out of thin air completely disregarding any concern of actually pronouncing things correctly (either that or he's the only one who pronounces things correctly and the rest of the broadcasting world gets them completely wrong). Maybe I should just relax, but man it bugs me.
2006-08-14 11:56:24
52.   Sam DC
Why do you despise the term "walkoff"?
2006-08-14 11:57:51
53.   Linkmeister
48 "Mr. H&S?"
2006-08-14 11:58:07
54.   Jon Weisman
44 - I think that since everyone including the speaker realizes the profanity doesn't go in the paper, that some are okay with not acknolweding it.
2006-08-14 11:58:41
55.   Linkmeister
48 BTW, there's a link to a good Wikipedia article about "walkoff" in the previous thread, if you missed it.
2006-08-14 12:00:56
56.   ToyCannon
I vaguely remember going to a game that I thought was opening day against the Giants and Thomanson hit a leadoff home run against Sutton and we lost 1-0 but I've been unable to find it in retrosheet so far.

My 1st game at DS was Sutton throwing a shutout and we won 1-0 on a Grabarkewitz home run against the Pirates. That one at least is a true memory.

2006-08-14 12:01:26
57.   Marty
Miller made a point of saying he had asked Betamit how he pronounced it and he told him Bet-a-meet.
2006-08-14 12:01:37
58.   bhsportsguy
For those listening to the Dodgers radio broadcast on Saturday, Charlie and Rick got into a long discussion about Dummy Hoy. Back when nicknames were usually tied to a physical attribute of that player, "Dummy" was deaf, the reason they talked about him was the fact that Lofton is a few SBs behind him in all time steals.
2006-08-14 12:03:26
59.   3upn3down
I think it was actually pronounced Bet-a-meat.
2006-08-14 12:05:42
60.   Bob Timmermann
Re: the walkoff. From the SF Chronicle, April 21, 1988.
Lowell Cohn article headlined "What the Eck?"

" "He has his own vocabulary," says La Russa with some puzzlement. "One time I said to him, `Nice going,' and he said, `I was salad out there.'

" `Oh, OK,' I said. I didn't want to sound like I wasn't sharp or cool. Finally, I had to break down and ask him. `I don't know what you mean.'

"He said, `I was just tossing it out there. I had nothing.' " La Russa laughs. He enjoys having a metaphorical late reliever.

"He calls home runs bridge pieces," La Russa says. "I don't understand that."

FOR A translation, I go in search of Eckersley. I also want to know why he calls short home runs "street pieces," and home runs that come in the last at-bat of a game "walkoff pieces." He is at his locker talking with Gene Nelson.

"Why do you call homers pieces, Dennis?"

A look of deep thought takes possession of Eckersley's face. "It's a piece," he says, as if that says anything. "A piece is like, I don't know, an act."

(emphasis mine)

2006-08-14 12:05:52
61.   Linkmeister
54 I'm puzzled by this: "acknolweding"

A virtual garden, perhaps? ;)

2006-08-14 12:06:26
62.   Sam DC
54 I see that, and I guess I've always known that was the practice, but it quite jars me to line one up against the other. I guess I have a certain absolutist view about things that go within quote marks.

Not trying to change the world or condemn anyone here.

2006-08-14 12:07:32
63.   Bob Timmermann
56
That was Opening Day in 1977 and Thomasson hit the first pitch of the game for a home run, but the Giants didn't score again and lost to the Dodgers 5-1.
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B04070LAN1977.htm
2006-08-14 12:08:01
64.   Telemachos
51, 59 Yeah, Miller mentioned they approached Betemit and asked how he prefers his name be pronounced... so BeteMEET it is (though I suppose to could be BeteMIT too, since since he only said emphasis on the last syllable).
2006-08-14 12:08:23
65.   Icaros
But then that whole "Can't find a Betemit" thing stops working, and that's no fun.
2006-08-14 12:08:32
66.   Bob Timmermann
62

Newspapers are changing their practice of not correcting the grammar of speakers, especially non-native speakers of English.

2006-08-14 12:09:20
67.   bhsportsguy
56 I was at Opening Day in 1977 (Lasorda's first opening day, Sinatra sang, and Ross Porter joined the broadcast booth), my recollection is that Rawlings had put out a new ball and the Hall of Fame was collecting all the first pitches for their collection. So Sutton decided to throw a strike and no one told Thomanson that he was supposed to let it go, he swung and hit the ball in the RF bullpen.

The Dodgers eventually won that game 5-1, starting a 17-4 run that vaulted them to the Western Division title and NL Pennant.

52 Despise is too strong, I have broken one of Jon rules. I just think its kind of hokey, was does walkoff mean, what about he hit the winner, etc.

2006-08-14 12:09:43
68.   Bob Timmermann
Spanish pronunciation would lead me to say "beh-tah-MEET"
2006-08-14 12:10:10
69.   Midwest Blue
58 It wasn't because Lofton plays defense like a dummy?
2006-08-14 12:15:52
70.   bhsportsguy
69 I knew that was coming but no, the guy's name (in baseball at least) was Dummy Hoy.
2006-08-14 12:17:50
71.   bhsportsguy
63 Have you heard that Rawlings story too or is that a baseball urban legend?
2006-08-14 12:19:54
72.   Bob Timmermann
I have updated the Wikipedia article on "walkoff".

Any time Dan Shaughnessy's name is removed from the record, it's a good thing.

2006-08-14 12:22:43
73.   Icaros
Dummy Hoy could be the name of a Mexican news show that runs video clips of people walking into doors and leaving their wallets at a bank they just robbed and stuff like that.
2006-08-14 12:22:55
74.   Bob Timmermann
71
Sutton tells the story about the baseball a lot.
2006-08-14 12:23:02
75.   Greg Brock
72 I like it when Dan Shaughnessy dies his hair black, and hops on stage with his comedian stage name...Stephen Wright.

Seriously, Dan. Get happy.

2006-08-14 12:24:29
76.   FirstMohican
Miller tries to get these names right, and in some cases, almost does. "Perez" for example, is pronounced by many English-speaking people as "Puh-rez". Miller gets close with his famous "Pair-ez", but puts way too much emphasis on the "Pair". It used to bug me, but now I find it funny.

What does bug me is when Morgan explains how Pedro Feliz' play on Martin was easier than his error on Kent because "with a catcher running" you have more time. It's nice to have announcers who actually watch NLW baseball sometimes.

2006-08-14 12:26:11
77.   bhsportsguy
Jon, Did you catch Heart and Soul when answering the question of what happended to the team to spark this win streak, he said the magic word of character. At least he did not say chemistry.

Why is it when players don't know an answer, we have to come up with answers like character to explain why they defied odds by going on this streak.

2006-08-14 12:33:19
78.   Xeifrank
The Dodgers 11 game winning streak stopped in Derek Lowe's last start and here we are again tonight. A new four game winning streak and Derek Lowe is pitching again. I think part of the reason that the pitching has been so sharp is that each pitcher is concentrating harder and doesn't want to be the one who loses. Hopefully, the peer pressure gets to Lowe tonight and he throws a 67 pitch 8 inning shutout! :) Either way, my new winning streak superstition is working but it has a maximum of 6 games in it. After that I need to make a sacrifice, and not the kind that Jim Tracy would make.
vr, Xei
2006-08-14 12:36:46
79.   the OZ
77 In the words of the immortal Crash Davis, learn your cliches.

"I'm just here to do whatever I can to help the ballclub."

"It's a testament to our character; this team has a lot of heart."

etc.

2006-08-14 12:39:12
80.   ToyCannon
63 67
Thanks and all this time I can only remember losing and we won! At least I got the leadoff Home Run right.
2006-08-14 12:42:39
81.   ToyCannon
77
Because players really believe that character counts and that they have it in spades compared to their competition, much like the same ballplayers who thank God for helping them win, thinking that God is on their side and that their prayers get answered while the competitions prayers fall on deaf ears.
2006-08-14 12:43:13
82.   thinkblue0
random question (which will probably be answered by Bob):

Does anyone know, what is the earliest MLB game we have on film? Just thinking about that last night, figured one of you might know...

2006-08-14 12:53:37
83.   Sam DC
67 What do you think about the point that "walkoff" is uniquely descriptive because it conveys in one phrase that the game ended on that play? Game winner doesn't do that because the word is used for a lot of late hits that put someone up, even if more runs are scored later or if the other team still has to bat.

I only harp on this a little because a number of folks have expressed not liking the phrase and since I like to think of myself as on the vanguard of not liking new things, the subject makes me uncomfortable.

One of these days I'll give in and start reading that newfangled Griddle, however. If only for the astronomy posts.

2006-08-14 12:56:08
84.   Telemachos
82 ESPN had an insipid "Baseball showdowns we'd like to see" feature... I caught a couple of minutes on Sunday. What was cool was they had footage of Walter Johnson pitching... which I'd never seen before (they even showed the raw 16fps footage, the "jerky sped-up" stuff and then corrected for the different frame rate and showed him slow-mo). Quite cool.
2006-08-14 12:57:01
85.   tjshere
68 Hmmmmm, as one gringo to another, I would have thought the Spanish pronunciation would be "bay-tay-MEET". But what do I know? Where's bluebleeder?
2006-08-14 12:57:34
86.   bigcpa
83 Separate show of hands on the appropriateness of the term "walk off single."
2006-08-14 12:58:23
87.   JoeyP
Baseball color commentators are useless in general, bc baseball is a very easy game to follow. Its also slow, so it allows the viewer to think about things on their own.

I always mute baseball games. Always. I think if I didnt, it would take away my enjoyment of the game bc I'd get agitated listening to some of the moronic drivel that spews forth from the McCarver, Morgan, Lou Pinella (catch him on Fox. He's the worst..Adds nothing to a broadcast other than talking in cliches and pointing out the obvious).

In an era of technological advances like HDTV, can anyone come up with a reason why they havent added in the option (for sporting events) of muting the announcers and just being able to listen to the sounds of the game? I think that would be an awesome television experience.

Of course, if they did that, the attendance at games might go down as well.

2006-08-14 13:00:11
88.   Marty
How about "walk off walk"?
2006-08-14 13:00:22
89.   Greg Brock
87 Fox had a "no announcers" game in football a few years ago. It was most enjoyable.
2006-08-14 13:07:23
90.   Jonny6
Maybe Miller is actually more conscientious than other broadcasters and really tries to articulate the pronunciations accurately and authentically, and then simply fails miserably in the actual execution. I suppose that could make sense, but the actual outcome of his efforts is a long stream of painfully rendered names that just sound "off" with accents in weird places.

In Betemit's case, it doesn't look we can get a single answer, since this link contradicts Miller's "Bet-a-meet".
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/pa/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060724&content_id=1572588&vkey=mlbpa_news&fext=.jsp

At the end of the day, the more outside announcers I listen to the more I enjoy Vin and the more polished Steiner sounds in comparison (although don't get me started on his description of pitcher's going "into the wind").

2006-08-14 13:08:59
91.   Telemachos
I'd love to have an SAP option of crowd noise only.

88 The "walkoff" Wikipedia article mentions the occasional use of "a balk off" to refer to a walk off balk. (!)

2006-08-14 13:09:28
92.   Sam DC
Last year, Mike Stanton's first appearance with the Nationals was a zero-pitch walk off balk. He came in on the road with the bases loaded and balked in the winning run without ever throwing to the plate.

You don't see that everyday.

2006-08-14 13:17:14
93.   Telemachos
93 I can only imagine what Frank Robinson's reaction must've been.
2006-08-14 13:18:53
94.   Midwest Blue
73 Given the "mixed-language" title, it would have to be one of the new breed of bilingual "cross-over" comedies starting to appear.

85 My Latino background would have me agreeing with "Be-ta-MEET".

2006-08-14 13:19:33
95.   JoeyP
I had never thought of this, but Golf is the only sport I'd rather watch on TV, than see in person. Golf producers make it seem as if you're right on the course with the players, always in the thick of the action. The announcers are in the background, giving some useful info, but the focus is always on the players.

With baseball, its as if you're not on the field at all, but rather in an announcing booth at the game, listening to two other people (that you probably dont like) discuss things that you already know.

There's a large difference I think.

Golf broadcasts seems to capture everything about a course (sounds, landscape, etc.) Baseball broadcasts present a rather sheltered/filtered view of something that could be great if captured correctly.

2006-08-14 13:21:34
96.   Eric Stephen
93 Our very first "Rickey" post! I've been waiting for years for someone to refer to their own post in the 3rd "person".

Kudos to you, Telemachos. (great name, BTW)

:D

2006-08-14 13:22:06
97.   FirstMohican
90 - As long as Miller doesn't start saying "Loss Ahn-hey-less" I'll be alright.

By the way - I need to learn to speak Spanish (conversationally) in about a week. Any Spanish-speaking Dodger Thoughts contributors have any advice?

2006-08-14 13:22:42
98.   Midwest Blue
How does Vin pronounce Betemit? However he pronounces it is the way I will pronouunce it, for I follow Vin blindly and loyally.

Word.

2006-08-14 13:26:10
99.   s choir
In Spanish, the emphasis is generally placed on the second-to-last syllable, absent an accent.
2006-08-14 13:26:23
100.   Telemachos
96 sigh. Stupid brain, stupid fingers....

Doesn't Vin say "BEH-ta-mit"?

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-08-14 13:27:12
101.   Midwest Blue
95 You speak the truth about golf broadcasts. It kinda sucks to be planted in one spot all day and try to compare one type of shot between various players. Kida lose the vastness of the game.

However, you can really appreciate certain types of golf shots up close. I remember seeing Jim Furyk hit an approach shot about 180 yards. He missed, went in the bunker on two hops -- and still spun the ball back 3 feet in the sand! That was impressive.

2006-08-14 13:27:13
102.   s choir
I believe Vin pronounces it BET-em-it.
2006-08-14 13:30:09
103.   Eric Stephen
98 Vin says "BET-a-mitt".

As in, "How in the world did we ever get Wilson Betemit for Danys Baez?"

Apparently, he pronounces Willy Aybar " ".

2006-08-14 13:31:31
104.   Xeifrank
Sports I hate to watch on TV but don't mind playing (not that I am good at them) and that are halfway popular are golf and bowling. OTTOMH, things that get the TV channel changed as quick as The View are golf, bowling, Nascar and poker.
vr, Xei
2006-08-14 13:32:35
105.   Midwest Blue
99 Correct, however, I doubt thatthe US media would commonly print an accent in his name if one were present.

97 I'm sure you realize that even though Spanish is one of the easiest languages to learn that you will not be able to be "conversational" in a week. Try focusing on the types of conversations you will be having and learning simple phrases in that area.

2006-08-14 13:32:38
106.   Bob Timmermann
89
NBC had the "no announcers" game, but it was quite a few years ago. Fox couldn't have a broadcast without announcers. The entire network would crumble. The CBC showed some CFL games without announcers last year, but that was because there was a strike by a union representing a sizeable chunk of employees.

And the CBC is a stupid organization too.

But, here's the bigger problem. My iPOD (which was fully charged) just said it wasn't. I got the "no batter power" icon and now I don't even get this. Is this sudden loss of power a sign that this iPOD has bitten the dust?

2006-08-14 13:36:06
107.   Bob Timmermann
99
The New York Times is one of the few English language papers in the U.S. that routinely prints diacritical marks in Spanish.

For example, from today's paper:
"José Valentín then grounded sharply to second baseman...."

2006-08-14 13:38:54
108.   Penarol1916
104. Completely agree, I don't understand how anyone can watch golf in any form, TV or live. I once had to take a client to the Western Open and it was just miserable.
2006-08-14 13:41:24
109.   GoBears
106. Yeah, I think that was more than 20 yrs ago.

Football is actually one sport for which I find most announcers (not all - I'm looking at you, Joe Buck) helpful. It's a vastly more complicated game than baseball or basketball, and after 30 years, I still learn stuff about blocking schemes, defensive tactics, etc.

In football, as in everything, I still want my PBP guy to describe the action, and my color guy to describe parts in greater detail, and explain some stuff. At no time do I ever want either to judge what's going on, or predict. It's not about you, gentlemen. Just help me to understand what I'm seeing.

So yeah, for Scully-less baseball and all hoops, I'd love a crowd-noise only option.

2006-08-14 13:41:37
110.   Xeifrank
Not wanting to upset the superstition gods, but if the Dodgers were good/lucky enough to make the playoffs, of the somewhat possibly likely outcomes, I'd rank the best outcomes for the Dodgers the following.
1. Dodgers get the #2 seed and the WC comes from the NL East (Phillies?). NLCent vs NYM, Phi vs LAD
2. Dodgers get the #2 seed and the WC comes from either NLWest or NLCentral. WC vs NYM, NLCent vs LAD
3. Dodgers get the #3 seed and the WC comes from either NLW or NLC. WC vs NYM, LAD vs NLC.
4. Dodgers get the #3 seed and the WC comes from the NL East. LAD vs NYM, WC vs NLCent
5. Dodgers get the WC. LAD vs NYM, NLW vs NLC.

The first two scenarios seem to be the best, as the Dodgers would get home field advantage. The last two scenarios aren't very good as we would be facing the Mets, not having the home field advantage. Right now scenarios #2 and #3 between them probably have a 75% of happening, assuming the Dodgers were in the playoffs. vr, Xei

2006-08-14 13:41:41
111.   Bob Timmermann
"La Opinión" spells "Wilson Betemit" this way,

Wilson Betemit

In Spanish, the accent is on the penultimate syllable if the word ends in a vowel, s, or n. All other have the stress on the last syllable.

So you don't need an accent mark on the i in Betemit because it would be superfluous.

2006-08-14 13:45:37
112.   Xeifrank
107. Diacritical marks... sure makes string parsing a pain in the rear-end. Part of me wants to say this is America and English is the official language and part of me wants to be politically correct (not a big part) and let's atleast try to pronounce it the way it is in the native tongue. What gets me are the announcers on both the TV news and radio news who give game highlights and butcher a name that isn't even foriegn. It really shows they are nothing more than a print reader. vr, Xei
2006-08-14 13:46:38
113.   the OZ
106 Is this sudden loss of power a sign that this iPOD has bitten the dust?

Was your iPod overthrown in a coup de'tat? If so, you'll have to restore its claim to the throne to turn on again.

2006-08-14 13:47:53
114.   Marty
I love going to Golf Tournaments. Only by standing at the tee can you really appreciate how far the pros hit it.

Plus, most tournaments are held at courses I have next to no chance of playing so I get to see what I'm missing, and start to hate my life and resent that other people are much better at something then I am, and then I start to think what else are they better at than me, and I start drinking and feeling sorry for myself.

Its a great game.

2006-08-14 13:48:59
115.   Bob Timmermann
I'll try plugging the iPOD back in when I get home to see if that helps, but I think the fact that it was so easily overthrown means that it is time to take a trip to the Apple Store to get iPOD #3.
2006-08-14 13:50:24
116.   dzzrtRatt
81 When asked why players cite character or chemistry as a reason for a team's success, ToyCannon said this: "Because players really believe that character counts and that they have it in spades compared to their competition, much like the same ballplayers who thank God for helping them win, thinking that God is on their side and that their prayers get answered while the competitions prayers fall on deaf ears."

I realize that Chemistry is a Myth is about as close to accepted wisdom on DT as any other point of view, but I disagree with your comparison. Obviously, it is absurd for players to give God the credit for winning a ballgame (since presumably the other team had some people praying to God for them, too); but to dismiss it when players talk about chemistry/character is to say that the people who live this profession day to day know less about it that we observers do. I realize "chemistry/character" is unmeasureable, and I realize that it is easy enough to talk about chemistry when your team is winning. But they are talking about the human factor that applies to any organization of people directed toward a goal. Leadership is a quality that exists, even though I can't tell you precisely how to measure it. Things like self-sacrifice, generosity, ability to teach, ability to learn, ability to inspire -- these are all qualities of individuals that have effects on the way groups behave.

One of the reasons, I think, why the Dodgers of the 90s were so constantly disappointing was the nature of the people involved. Piazza was a great player, but he didn't want to be bothered with any responsibility for what he couldn't directly control -- like the rest of the team. Karros was a total narcissist. Ismael Valdes' lack of commitment was seen as cowardly by his teammates. Lasorda by then was a manager who played favorites and created poor morale. Russell was obviously a terrible communicator. And so on.

In any organization, even those with great chemistry, you're going to have a few jerks (cough-JeffKent-cough). But too many jerks, and it becomes depressing to go to work, and people who are depressed don't perform as well as people who are happy in their work. Why this shouldn't apply as much to a baseball team as a company or a classroom escapes me.

2006-08-14 13:51:03
117.   Telemachos
Is your iPod still under warranty, Bob? They should just hand you a brand new one if it is.
2006-08-14 13:51:37
118.   Bob Timmermann
117
I don't think it is.
2006-08-14 13:55:20
119.   Bob Timmermann
Hey, it still is under warranty! Woo hoo!
2006-08-14 13:57:39
120.   Greg Brock
The Fox game was not completely unanounced. Jimmie Johnson was in the booth, and would make a comment every few minutes or so.

It was a big deal at the time. I'm surprised people don't remember it. It was also around the time of the illuminated hockey puck. Fox was trying to do a lot of stuff like that.

2006-08-14 14:00:37
121.   Nagman
There are all kinds of issues with older generation iPods and the battery level indicator. Mine often says it is drained but after a reboot, it will show that it is indeed charged.

There was also some sort of class action lawsuit regarding battery life and if you have a certain generation iPod you are entitled to a battery replacement.

2006-08-14 14:05:08
122.   Gagne55
110 I just don't want the Cardinals in the first round. the Cardinals pwn the Dodgers. However, the Cards look like the most likely first round opponent.
2006-08-14 14:05:13
123.   Bob Timmermann
I actually have the latest generation iPOD. I think it just went bad.
2006-08-14 14:08:36
124.   Gagne55
116 And perhaps the dumping of Odalis Perez corresponding with the 15-1 is evidence for your point.
2006-08-14 14:12:12
125.   Greg S
116
Whether chemistry is truly something that plays a part- I don't know. But I am completely convinced that what we see as fans and what we project onto these players is usually so far from the reality that it might as well be a random guess. Their abilities are there to be seen and judged but their personalities and relationships to each other are much more hard to know and understand. Doesn't stop us from trying but I think we are almost always wrong.
I'm guessing there are many of us here who have heard or witnessed "inside stories" and they are often completely different from what the public sees.
2006-08-14 14:16:02
126.   Gagne55
125 Yeah, but when pretty much everyone hates Odalis Perez, there's probably something wrong with him. Jeff Kent doesn't sound bad at all.
2006-08-14 14:19:48
127.   Jon Weisman
For some reason, the latest character conversation made me think of this:

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/88/88tknowme.phtml

I still laugh out loud at the memory.

2006-08-14 14:21:06
128.   Eric Enders
82 "Does anyone know, what is the earliest MLB game we have on film? Just thinking about that last night, figured one of you might know..."

The earliest full game existing on film is Game 6 of the 1952 World Series.

2006-08-14 14:24:23
129.   Greg S
125
These are good examples. I think that WE as fans all dislike Perez and it would be easy to see why his teammates would feel the same. But maybe he was popular with his teammates (doubt it but I wouldn't be shocked). As for Kent, easy to believe he's a jerk. Also pretty easy to assume he's a respected leader in the clubhouse. Without being there or hearing it from his teammates (which is rare) we're just guessing.
2006-08-14 14:28:27
130.   Midwest Blue
108 My random thought recollection (sorry, Bob) of Jim Furyk's shot occurred at the Western Open in 2000 IIRC.

111 Once again, I defer to your vast knowledge, Herr Timmermann.

2006-08-14 14:29:42
131.   Greg S
129
Just to add on... Eddie Murray was considered to be a clubhouse cancer (Peter Gammons' words) throughout much of his career. By the last few years, it was generally believed that he was a leader and a model teammate. I think a lot of this changed when Cal Ripken (who is loved by fans) cited Eddie as one of his biggest influences during his speech after breaking "the record". Eddie didn't change, only what the public believed did.
2006-08-14 14:29:42
132.   natepurcell
we usually hit Willis well for some reason so I am kind of optimistic tonight.
2006-08-14 14:30:28
133.   Midwest Blue
Off-topic FFL alert: Jets just traded for Lee Suggs.
2006-08-14 14:35:06
134.   Bluebleeder87
How do you get a name like Pants?

you have to be born in the 1800's to have cool names like that.

2006-08-14 14:37:44
135.   natepurcell
Go Vikings. And welcome home Randy Moss! I miss you!!!! :(
2006-08-14 14:38:13
136.   Midwest Blue
127 * Before I got to know Jon, I was nothing, nowhere, nobody! I was a two-bit comic with an arrow stuck through my head! And then, I got to know him, and now I just starred in a movie called "Parenthood", directed by Opie! And today, they call me.. Steve Martin!
*

Classic. (Could it also be applied to DT?)

2006-08-14 14:39:24
137.   Midwest Blue
136 -- Whoops.
2006-08-14 14:41:19
138.   Bob Timmermann
Pants Rowland lived to be 91 and passed away in 1969. And in his obit he was still called Pants, although it was usually written Clarence (Pants) Rowland.

But it seems that most people called him "Pants".

2006-08-14 14:41:48
139.   gcrl
106

"no batter power" to me usually conjures up visions of cesar izturis. my ipod crapped out a couple of weeks ago. after a couple of days of nothing, it started to take a charge and play again, but it is not recognized by any of my computers.

135

nate, i am heading out to the metrodome tonight. hopefully randy busts out on the raidahs first play from scrimmage, removes his helmet to display a gigantic afro, and fake-moons the crowd before running over a traffic cop with the injury-cart while leaving the field early. for old times sake.

2006-08-14 14:44:48
140.   natepurcell
139

are you a vikes fan!?!? If so, skol vikes!

I miss Randy and I honestly would love to have him back after this season once the raiders cut him because his contract is so massive. I think our team will be pretty good this year though. a solid "team". no superstars but solid across the board. I think the offensive and defensive lines will be very solid and everything else will fall into place...as long as BJ doesn't die.

2006-08-14 14:45:11
141.   Linkmeister
Other than Simers and the motorcycle accident, what evidence is there that Kent's a jerk? The quotes he's been handing out recently make him out (to me, anyway) as a pretty funny guy.

114 Marty, does that include the Riviera and Palm Springs? I used to attend the Hawaiian Open at Waialae almost every year, and I've even played 7 holes at Kapalua in a driving rainstorm.

2006-08-14 14:46:00
142.   Marty
Everybody has a character flaw. Nate's is the Vikings :)
2006-08-14 14:46:15
143.   Bob Timmermann
If my iPOD doesn't charge up at home, it goes back to Apple, although I have to pay the shipping since it's more than six months but fewer than 12 months from its date of purchase.

Or else I could just buy a new one. It was so sad when "The Ride of the Valkyries" just stopped in the middle. I thought I had pulled the headphones out by accident. But no, that was not the case.

Ruined my whole lunch.

2006-08-14 14:50:24
144.   Greg S
what evidence is there that Kent's a jerk?
None that I know of. But I'd bet my bottom dollar that many believe it to be fact.
2006-08-14 14:50:37
145.   Marty
I've walked Riviera many times and have friends who've played there (with Larry David to name drop). But I've never held a club there. I also went to a Hope at Indian Wells, a Crosby at mostly Spyglass and an Andy Williams at Torrey. I've actually played Torrey Pines a few times but that was 25 years ago. And I kicked it around at Pebble about 8 years ago.
2006-08-14 14:52:20
146.   Bob Timmermann
Bob's NFL Dead to Me List
1. Fran Tarkenton
2. Paul Krause
3. Chuck Foreman
4. Bud Grant
5. Mick Tinglehoff
6. Ron Yary
7. Bobby Bryant
8. John Gilliam
9. Fred Cox
10. Fran Tarkenton (in order to make sure he's really dead.)

I was highly traumatized by watching the Rams in the playoffs in the 1970s.

2006-08-14 14:57:10
147.   still bevens
143 Did you reset it? That usually works for me. Press the middle button and menu down at the same time.

I should also note that my old ipod had to be replaced twice because the battery died on me. Thats where the warranty comes in handy.

2006-08-14 14:59:07
148.   Midwest Blue
139 Cesar's stats since going to the Cubs: .238/0 HR/4 RBI/4 Runs/0 SB. He's the third worst hitter on the Cubs.

Ah, the good 'ol days...

140 Nate, Randy's not going anywhere.
Signed,
the Black Hole.

2006-08-14 14:59:40
149.   Marty
It was hard not to be traumatized by the Rams in the 1970s. But I give Ron Yary a pass since he was a Trojan. Number one pick overall too.
2006-08-14 15:01:07
150.   Marty
148 But how many GBIs (or Gs BI for D4P) for Cesar?
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-08-14 15:01:21
151.   Linkmeister
146 What, no Alan Page?
2006-08-14 15:03:58
152.   the OZ
150 Should be RsGI.
2006-08-14 15:05:06
153.   Bob Timmermann
151
I need to stay on Alan Page's good side in case I get charged with a crime in Minnesota and my case goes to the Supreme Court there on appeal.

Fran Tarkenton is beyond the pale. He is a blight on the history of the NFL. If he had never existed, I would be a much happier man.

Plus, we might not have had to watch "That's Incredible."

2006-08-14 15:06:41
154.   Midwest Blue
150/152 - Explain?
2006-08-14 15:10:07
155.   Marty
152 is probably a better way to put it. Runs Gloved In
2006-08-14 15:11:09
156.   jasonungar05
Torey Pines is not worth playing anymore. I played recently and they do it up for the tour and thats about it. My favorite golf momment when I wasn't playing was following a threesome of Freddy Couples, Jon Daly and Tiger back in 2000 at Riveria.

Favorite place I have played- Kapalu on Maui
Other fav's were Spyglass, Redhawk (Temecula, CA) and Pinon Hills in New Mexico

2006-08-14 15:19:20
157.   Marty
I've played Redhawk, it was brutal. Spyglass was just amazing looking. If I ever get back to that area that is where I want to play. I remember being surprised at how short Daly was when I saw him at the L.A. Open.
2006-08-14 15:19:38
158.   Midwest Blue
155 Don't know how to calculate that. But the Cubs are 6-6 since he's been there in August. They were 14-12 in July. So he's either making little or no difference with his glove (at least as it calculates to the standings).

156 You are SO lucky.

2006-08-14 15:22:11
159.   Midwest Blue
157 Short-- but wiiide. And sneaky fast.
2006-08-14 15:23:50
160.   the OZ
156 You don't like Torrey? It's a muni, after all, but a fun, fair course. I played the easier (north?) course a few years ago; good times. The difficult (south?) course that the pros play was toughened up significantly within the last few years.

I've never played Kapalua, but I agree that Spyglass is unbelievable. Best course I've played, no doubt. Much, much better than Pebble, which was nice but a disappointment.

2006-08-14 15:25:12
161.   JMK
116 Perhaps "chemistry" matters less in baseball than the typical corporation because baseball is so individualized and public. In most corporations what you contribute is very hard to seperate from the contributions from your co-workers. You really are a sort of organism that can perform well together or perform poorly together. Other sports like football and basketball do seem to depend on cohesion and harmony. But baseball is different. Did it really matter that Milton Bradley and Jeff Kent were terrible teammates last year? They obviously disliked each other but both of them put up good numbers when healthy. Baseball players may not like a contentious clubhouse but I doubt it has significant effects on their performance. They're still going to try. There seems to me 3 big reasons why most player will always try: 1) Playing for their next contract, 2) the public nature of the job, nobody wants to mess up in front of people (a big difference between the average worker and the ballplayer), and 3) they really want to be good at what they do. "Chemistry" exists in many facets of life, like you mentioned, but I think baseball is very, very different. Many folks (not here) point to lack of chemistry as a reason for last year's poor performance by the Dodgers. Does that mean that guys like Itzuris and Erickson performed poorly because they didn't like what was going on in the clubhouse? It's more likely that talent or injuries were the biggest factors.
2006-08-14 15:25:16
162.   Marty
Torrey Pines is hosting the US Open next year or the year after.
2006-08-14 15:36:55
163.   overkill94
By my unscientific observations, it seems that Jeff Kent is a bit of a jerk, but at least the good kind. What I mean by this is he seems to be pretty arrogant, but will let you know when you do a good job. I doubt he goes out of his way to console someone who is struggling, but will get on you if you're not giving it your all. So, in the end, I'd like to think his teammates generally think he's a jerk, but respect him and don't have any ill feelings toward him.
2006-08-14 15:39:13
164.   Mr Customer
143 It probably died of emotional exhaustion. One should not listen to Wagner during lunch, unless vanquishing one's enemies is on the menu.
2006-08-14 15:46:45
165.   jasonungar05
I do not dislike Torrey, it's just that there are lot's of courses in the area that are better for the money. You think, oh pro course and stuff and they don't really keep it manacured that well and the greens were bumpy when I played.

On Redhawk, Marty do u mean brutal as in hard or brutal as in the course? I play a course near my hometown called Aliso Creek Golf Course. I like it. It's a golden bear design and worth the money. The most brutal (hard) course I have played was La Purisma up in Central California (near Lompoc)....

I live in San Juan Capistrano and there is a new, nicer course there with reasonable green fees, it's called Arroyo Trabuco Golf Club.

Strawberry Farms in Irvine, rip off. Nice but not worth it.

Tijeras Creek Golf Club in South OC- nice but a little overpriced as well

Talega Golf Course in San Clemente is a Freddy Couples Course and that's worth the money.

Coyote Hills Golf Course is a Payne Stewart course in North OC, I think that's nice and worth the money.

Go Blue.

2006-08-14 15:50:21
166.   the OZ
Best value in SoCal, in my opinion:

Rustic Canyon in Moorpark. $35 without cart, weekdays. Twilight is $20, I think.

2006-08-14 15:51:43
167.   natepurcell
165

I played Arroyo Trabuco earlier this summer. Pretty nice. I use to play Tijeras Creek all the time. The back 9 in the canyons just destroys me every time.

2006-08-14 15:57:16
168.   Jon Weisman
Ethier and Lofton are sitting today. Julio "Anything Ramon Martinez can do, I can do better" Lugo is in left.
2006-08-14 15:59:02
169.   Marty
Rustic Canyon is a great deal. I agree Strawberry Farms is way over priced. Redhawk was brutally hard for me. One of the best deals used to be Oak Valley in Beaumont. It used to be $30 on week days and $45 on weekends. But you had to drive to Beaumont.
2006-08-14 16:00:10
170.   Telemachos
163 I actually enjoy the T.J. Simers/Kent relationship -- or, at least, the Simers published version of said relationship.
2006-08-14 16:11:22
171.   Midwest Blue
To the golfers, I'll be in SoCal in two weeks. My 11-year old just learned to play and wants to golf out there. She's actually pretty good for a beginner. I'm trying to find a course that is nice, not overpriced, challenging enough for me (20 handicap) but not brutal hard because of her. Any suggestions?
2006-08-14 16:16:20
172.   Jacob L
Rustic Canyon is so great and reasonably priced that I would typically hesitate to even mention it in a public forum. The rest of the world doesn't need to know about it. However, since someone else brought it up . . .

Rustic is also the subject of a weird, cultish golf course design connoisseurship. In other words, its got things about it that not everybody "gets," but nevertheless most people like it because of the value, the good conditions, and its setting.

2006-08-14 16:17:34
173.   Jacob L
171 What part of town are you going to be in? Weekdays or weekends? Any price parameters?
2006-08-14 16:20:58
174.   Marty
If you are going to be around Pasadena, the two Brookside courses at the Rose Bowl are a good value. Course 1 is much longer but has easier greens than course two. On Weekdays you can get on for about $35 I think. Weekends with a cart is about $70.
2006-08-14 16:27:18
175.   the OZ
171

Fair, fun, frugal:

Lake Lindero CC - 9-hole layout (although they make it into 18 with two sets of tees for each green), par 28 per nine. The par 3s are short enough for your kid but tough enough for you. The par 4 is 280 yards. Located in Agoura Hills, right off the 101 freeway. Around $12-14 per nine, methinks.

Rancho Park - the 9-hole course could be fun there. It's not as crowded as the 'big' course. Located at Pico & Beverly Glen, not too far from where the 10 meets the 405.

Los Verdes - If you can get a tee time, try this out. $20 for an oceanside-ish course in Palos Verdes. You may need a resident card to get a reservation. If you know anyone that has the LA Muni reservation card, have them make a time for you for as early in the morning as humanly possible.

2006-08-14 16:32:20
176.   grandcosmo
172.

Jacob L., are you a GCA'er?

2006-08-14 16:32:25
177.   Bob Timmermann
Los Verdes is not an LA City course. You're at the mercy of calling in. They take forever to play there. If you start at 6 am, you may be lucky to get 18 holes in before dark.

The most miserable human beings I've ever played golf with were at Los Verdes. But they were in two different rounds, so I don't know which ones to rank higher on the misery scale.

1) The guy who had a beeper going off telling him that his wife was giving birth, but kept on playing because "it was going to take a while" and then would do things like park his cart in front of me as I was about to shoot

or

2) the guys from some indeterminate Asian country who pulled weeds and parts of bushes up WITH THEIR ROOTS from the rough to get better lies for their shots and then yelled at me when I inadvertantly walked the slightest bit on their putting line?

2006-08-14 16:33:08
178.   Greg Brock
175 If you want to play Los Verdes, it would behoove you to camp at the course, lest the myriad retirees beat you to the punch.

I don't know about weekdays, but weekends are brutal.

2006-08-14 16:33:51
179.   Greg Brock
177 What he said too.
2006-08-14 16:35:08
180.   Greg S
171
Sorry OZ but I must say BEWARE Rancho Park. Nice course... nicest six hours you can spend playing golf. If you don't mind that, go for it. Actually, same goes for Los Verdes. Great choice (nice views) but six hours is realistic IF you can get on at all. LA is pretty bad place for golfers. The OC courses named above are your best bet but they will be $60+ weekdays and 75+ on weekends. ALL may be hard to get onto on the weekends so don't show up without a tee time.
2006-08-14 16:36:52
181.   Bob Timmermann
I would add that my miserable experiences at Los Verdes all happened midweek.

I played there five times. I got throught 18 holes once.

2006-08-14 16:37:40
182.   Jacob L
176 Lurker. I have nothing to add there.

175, 177 My questions in 173 were basically a pre-cursor toward recommending either Los Verdes or Roosevelt (9 holes in Griffith). I would never send anyone to either place on a weekend.

Actually, one of my favorites local munis that you hardly see mentioned is Santa Anita. I think that would probably fit the bill for 171 unless he's not otherwise near that part of town.

2006-08-14 16:39:15
183.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
116, etc. on chemistry:
I think the only reason we're discussing this is that within 60 seconds of a crowd of happy teammates pounding on Russell Martin for his game winning homer (see, I didn't say walkoff!), he gets collared by ESPN and is asked the most inane question:

what one big thing has made the difference?

C'mon. One thing? They win 4 one-run games in a row and you think there isn't a bit of luck at hand? They made many player moves and have more shortstops than any team I've ever heard of, they suddenly get 20 innings of 0.90 ERA from Greg Maddux, they're getting shutout bullpen innings (mostly), they suddenly are putting up three times as many runs as when they lost 11 straight, and you want one thing?

What's a guy going to say at a time like this? Cliche!

"Uh, it's because we're happy, eh?"

"Or is it that we're happy because we're winning? I don't know, just make me look good with this HD close up camera in my face..."

2006-08-14 16:39:28
184.   the OZ
177 I think they reserve morning tee times for a specific group of people, which may or may not include LA City golf cardholders. After that, they send out fivesomes. I've played there thrice and it never took longer than 5 hours. Of course, those rounds were also with a pre-8am tee time on a weekday.

But I appreciate those as valid points; I imagine that place is a zoo if you try to play during the afternoon/weekend. Maybe my friends and I were just lucky.

2006-08-14 16:40:03
185.   808Bears
Jacob -

I took your advice on Friday evening about getting to the Ravine from the north and avoiding traffic. It worked like a charm, and we rolled in before the end of the second inning. Even scored some sweet Loge tickets for face value right behind home plate from some guy (thanks, Toy, for the tip). Great weekend for baseball - so great, that I'm not even that sad to have been driving and not been at yesterday's game. Just wanted to thank you all and join in the elation of a successful Blue weekend. Yet another reason why this site is so great.

2006-08-14 16:40:21
186.   Jon Weisman
I heartily recommend the Rancho Park Par 3 course because it is the site of my only career non-miniature golf birdie. Two nice old ladies witnessed me chipping in from about 40 yards. Sweet!!!
2006-08-14 16:42:25
187.   the OZ
180 Agreed on the 18-hole Rancho. It's a slow-play nightmare. I've heard the 9-hole course isn't so bad, especially in the morning.

I've heard great things about Roosevelt, but never played there. I also like Balboa-Encino in the Valley, if you can get out early on a weekday.

Pretty much all of my recommendations, except Lindero, are contingent on getting out early on a weekday.

2006-08-14 16:44:05
188.   Jacob L
185 I couldn't be happier. Go Bears (and Dodgers, of course)!

186 I used to play Rancho 3 par when I was in what I call the "beginner's luck" phase of my golfing career. It was there that some jerk explained to me that there are 1,000 things that can go wrong in both the backswing and the downswing, and that any good shot is just luck. In other words, it was there that I learned that golf is hard. I've never been back.

2006-08-14 16:44:40
189.   Bob Timmermann
Go play Alhambra. It's the only course I ever broke 100 on for 18 holes.

I shot a 98.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do stink at golf.

I wouldn't go to Los Verdes even if a dying Jimmy Durante told me that all the loot was buried there under the big W.

2006-08-14 16:46:05
190.   grandcosmo
182. Tommy N from GCA posts here occasionally. I'm on there but not as often as I used to be.
2006-08-14 16:48:39
191.   Jacob L
189 The Big W is much, much closer to Ocean Trails nee Trump National of Los Angeles. Now there's a course that I wouldn't recommend to anybody.

Honestly, I think Los Verdes is a great place to play, but I have a soft spot having grown up about a mile from there. In fact, the house where I went to my prom's after party is on the third hole. Not to disagree with everyone's obsevations about crowds, slow play, and annoying people, but you can get lucky there, and if you do, its a beautiful place.

2006-08-14 16:49:19
192.   Marty
I think Bob means Almansor. It is in Alhambra. Santa Anita is a great layout. That's where I learned the game.
2006-08-14 16:50:36
193.   Bob Timmermann
Except it is officially "Alhambra Golf Course"

http://www.alhambragolf.com/course.html

2006-08-14 16:51:36
194.   Marty
193 Hmmm... I'd be willing to bet that no one in Alhambra calls it that, but I should never doubt you.
2006-08-14 16:53:39
195.   Bob Timmermann
194

But if the person is from out of town and looking for the course on a map or in the phone book, the actual name would help.

2006-08-14 16:54:05
196.   Gen3Blue
I've been deprived of Dodger ball in many ways in the past on the east coast.
So I have been studying my DTV sports schedule with a jaundiced eye before trying to get a nap before game time. On the main baseball schedule screen D's vs. Marlins shows up at 10:00pm ET( 7:00pm PT). However the next screen shows two games.( it is the HD or High Def. offerings) and the second says Marlins@Dodgers 11:00pm ET (JIP) the first time I have ever seen them use this JIP. Although I am slow and suspicious, I figure this must mean joined in progress. and will take my nap without stress.
2006-08-14 16:54:10
197.   Greg Brock
191 I grew up close to Los Verdes as well, and enjoy the course. It's everything peripheral to the actual course that is painful. It's way too much pain for 6 1/2 hours of golf (yup, it takes a while to play).
2006-08-14 16:54:29
198.   Linkmeister
189 My favorite comedy of all time! More sight gags than any other.

191 You mean the Big W isn't in San Diego? I could actually have found it in all that time I was driving around LA on weekends in the mid-1980s?

(Falls over dead in shock)

2006-08-14 16:56:01
199.   Jacob L
The great thing about Santa Anita, Alhambra, or even Montebello is that you're near the greates concentration of Chinese food in the western hemisphere, if post-round dining is of any importance.

In fact, as I think about it, Alhambra probably is the best place for MidwestBlue. I don't like it as well as Santa Anita, but it will be pretty playable for a beginner. Its on Almansor St., and that is what a lot of people call it, but technically Bob is right about the name.

2006-08-14 16:56:54
200.   Bluebleeder87
"Or is it that we're happy because we're winning? I don't know, just make me look good with this HD close up camera in my face..."

:o)

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-08-14 16:57:26
201.   jasonungar05
I love Rustic Canyon. I have a soft spot for all Ventura County courses. I think that's where the best value is in California. Moorpark Golf Club (Peter Jacobsen)is another nice one. I grew up in Thousand Oaks. My first job was driving around the truck with the cage picking up golf balls at Los Robles. Good times!! Go Blue, my hard drive at home crashed so I don't have Dodger Thoughts at home during this streak, it's killing me!! So have a good night everyone.....
2006-08-14 16:57:34
202.   Bob Timmermann
You can't find the Big W anymore as one of the trees isn't there anymore I believe.
2006-08-14 16:57:42
203.   bigcpa
Oddly enough I'm calling Los Verdes tomorrow morning for a tee time next week. The other gripe there aside from pace of play is that they block out literally every weekend day all year from 8am to 11am for tournaments. No idea how a public course gets away with this.
2006-08-14 16:59:33
204.   Jacob L
198 Its on the property of the Portuguese Bend Club in Palos Verdes, though at least one of the palm trees isn't there anymore, so you have to fill in with your imagination.

That's my father-in-law's all-time favorite movie. I could never score any points with him until he learned that:
a) I grew up where the Big W is, and
b) my grandmother's cousin had a small part in the movie.

2006-08-14 16:59:43
205.   Greg Brock
191 And for sheer goofing off value, nothing beats Sea Air off PCH. Many a teenage weekend spent there, being a total nightmare with a pitching wedge and nine-iron.
2006-08-14 17:00:03
206.   Bob Timmermann
203

May God have mercy on your soul.

I'd rather have lunch with Fran Tarkenton and Russ Ortiz than go back to Los Verdes again.

2006-08-14 17:00:55
207.   Jon Weisman
It's up to me, then, to point out that Pedro Martinez was KOed in Philadelphia? One inning, six runs.
2006-08-14 17:01:11
208.   Marty
It sounds like Los Verdes needs to be on Bob's dead to me list.

Rancho Park is that way for me.

2006-08-14 17:02:42
209.   Jacob L
207 Sorry, Jon. They all got me started on golf courses with possible tangents into chinese food and movies.

Tough night for Pedro, then?

2006-08-14 17:04:44
210.   Jacob L
205 That's for sure. I saw a girl of about 8 or 9 get a hole in one there without the ball getting 6 inches off the ground!
2006-08-14 17:04:49
211.   Bob Timmermann
And the Yankees lead the Angels 2-0. The Bronx Banter crowd has a surprisingly high degree of paranoia about Chone Figgins.
2006-08-14 17:05:26
212.   Greg Brock
207 If my Met friend's text messages are correct, filled with various and sundry expletives, Lastings Milledge and his glove might have had a hand in his demise.
2006-08-14 17:07:30
213.   Andrew Shimmin
to dismiss it when players talk about chemistry/character is to say that the people who live this profession day to day know less about it that we observers do.

Well, what are they supposed to say? There isn't a way for them to attribute success to anything reasonable. They can't say the pitcher was garbage, or they're jerks. They can't say that they personally rock harder than Joe Tex, or they're jerks. So they make stuff up.

Let's say that chemistry mattered, and that team leadership was worth anything. The thesis is that it makes players better than their true skill level, yes? How much better? Not only do the forces of Chemistry have to demonstrate that it makes any difference, they have to demonstrate that the difference it makes outweighs the costs of catering to it; if you refuse to make use of the bad chemistry players (what, 10% of the league? whatever it is, it's got to be significant) you're effectively increasing the price of your talent.

2006-08-14 17:09:36
214.   bigcpa
I've played Verdes in 5 hours before. It's not like there's such thing as a sub 5-hour round in L.A. County to begin with. So if it's 5hr 45min of oceanfront golf vs. 5hr 15min inland, I'll stick with Verdes. The tournament thing still infuriates me.
2006-08-14 17:09:55
215.   Midwest Blue
Evryone,

Thanks for the suggestions (sorry for the delay, had to drive home.)

I want to play midweek. I like the Par 3 suggestions as well as the Alhambra suggestions. I'll be staying near Montebello and I'd like to get on a course before 8am so as to get off the course by Noon.

2006-08-14 17:10:20
216.   Gen3Blue
198 Sight gags yes, but is the size and bredth of the cast that is most amazing.
I think "Rat Race" was an attempt to honor it without much cast.
2006-08-14 17:13:20
217.   trainwreck
Nate needs to be around so we can talk about my Raiders vs his Vikings.
2006-08-14 17:14:06
218.   Linkmeister
204 Good grief. I lived in Navy housing right off Palos Verdes Drive across from Rolling Hills Estates back in 1959-1961. I might even have seen those trees before they got featured in the movie.
2006-08-14 17:14:55
219.   Bob Timmermann
I like the Par 3 suggestions as well as the Alhambra suggestions. I'll be staying near Montebello and I'd like to get on a course before 8am so as to get off the course by Noon.

Arroyo Seco Golf Course in my neck of the woods advertises itself as "The Prettiest Par 3 Course in America."

And I got a hole-in-one there!

2006-08-14 17:15:14
220.   Linkmeister
216 It was the taxi driver landing in the Lincoln statue's lap that got me.
2006-08-14 17:15:25
221.   Marty
198 Dick Shawn has me on the floor every time I see that movie.
2006-08-14 17:20:47
222.   Gen3Blue
Dam, who was that taxi driver, he might have been one of the few unknowns in the movie, I can't seem to remember.
2006-08-14 17:21:27
223.   Bob Timmermann
Jorge Posada bounced into the not too common 4-6-5 DP.
2006-08-14 17:21:36
224.   Jacob L
221 Does he play Ethel Merman's son? That guy's hilarious.
2006-08-14 17:24:48
225.   Bob Timmermann
There are three cab drivers in "It's a MadX4 World".

First cab driver - Leo Gorcey
Second cab driver - Eddie Anderson
Third cab driver - Peter Falk

2006-08-14 17:24:57
226.   Gen3Blue
Mama--I coming Mama! Thats him. He also plays Hitler in the Producers, and is just as hilarious as I remember.
2006-08-14 17:25:31
227.   Marty
224 Yes.

The taxi drivers are Leo Gorcy, Peter Falk and Eddie "Rochester" Anderson.

2006-08-14 17:27:53
228.   bhsportsguy
215 When you say get on the course before 8:00, how early, several of the courses out that way, excluding Brookside, you should be able to walk on but you will have to get their early, the only thing about Alhambra, they have a men's club that has priority golf times early in the morning, you should call but if you get there before 7, you should be able to walk on with your daughter and be done before 11.
2006-08-14 17:27:59
229.   Jacob L
222 There are three credited "cab drivers" in the movie -
Peter Falk, Eddie "Rochester" Anderson, and Leo Gorcey.

As I mentioned, my cousin (grandmother's cousin) has a credit as a reporter. This is him:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0636183/

I've never spotted him in the movie, though.
I suppose he'd qualify as an unknown, but he was a really a career character actor.

2006-08-14 17:28:30
230.   Marty
"Where did you get that funny accent? Are you from Harvard or something?"

"Harvard? Rather not. I'm English."

"Sounds so Foreign"

Priceless.

2006-08-14 17:35:30
231.   Bob Timmermann
Leo Gorcey is getting a lot of mentions on DT today. He may become our next Danica McKellar.
2006-08-14 17:37:29
232.   bhsportsguy
I checked out the other two runs of 15 wins in 16 games in 1965 and 1977. The 1965 team had one of the hottest closing runs in September, for they closed that season winning 15 out of 16.

In 1977, they started the season 2-2 and then went on a 20-2 run where they went 15-1, loss a game and then won 5 straight.

2006-08-14 17:40:42
233.   Jon Weisman
231 - There's a fundamental reason why that could never happen.
2006-08-14 17:42:56
234.   Jacob L
232 Remember how excited we all got over 12-2 last year?

I think that explains the tangents today. What can you say about a 15-1 run? That's some good ballplaying?

2006-08-14 17:44:24
235.   bigcpa
232 And the Dodgers have never had a 16-1 stretch.
2006-08-14 17:48:09
236.   Linkmeister
It was the sight of Rochester landing in the Great Emancipator's lap that got me; I didn't fully catch it until about the third time I saw the movie.

Even the cameos were good.

2006-08-14 17:50:08
237.   bhsportsguy
With apologies to Bob:
Random Box Score, August 14, 1988

Giants 15, Dodgers 4. The notable line in that box score was stat line for starting pitcher Orel Hershiser, he pitched 2 innings and gave 8 runs, 5 earned.

He would give up only 4 more runs in his next 82 innings, 2 in one inning in a complete game win and 2 in one inning in a complete game loss, so he pitched 80 out of his 82 innings without giving up a run.

Just thought as we talk about streaks, that was certainly one to remember.

2006-08-14 17:50:23
238.   Vaudeville Villain
233-

He's not as good with statistics?

Getting in on the chemistry conversation late, I personally believe that it has no effect on the outcome of the game, period. Unlike basketball or football, there is no real "team" element to baseball. There is no disadvantage to not getting along with someone in baseball.

For example, in basketball, Kobe Bryant may take 40 shots a game, keeping the ball away from Shaq, which you could argue is attributable to bad chemistry. In football, a receiver/QB duo that has not been playing together very long may not know when the other player is going to throw/ turn and look for the ball.

I can't think of a single similar situation in baseball. Baseball is a strange sport, in that it is almost a one on one matchup. Pitcher vs. Batter. The only time "team" really comes up into play is on defense, and I can't imagine how bad chemistry would affect defense negatively, except for maybe double plays.

2006-08-14 17:53:13
239.   bhsportsguy
235 At least none that anyone has turned up. But to answer your question, in 1977, no they did not but in 1965, they closed out the season on that run so they had no opportunity to lose, however they lost the first game of the World Series that year, an aside to that was that their Cy Young, Mr. Perfect Game pitcher, declined to start game one but he did pitch well later in the series I believe.
2006-08-14 17:54:38
240.   Jon Weisman
238 - Chemistry could affect how hard you work, practice or prepare. But my feeling is that there are other incentives to help make up for bad chemistry, other factors more important than chemistry.
2006-08-14 17:55:11
241.   PDH5204
161 JMK:

A far better example, given the Dodgers'lack of success last year, is the old Oakland A's. How many times were Reggie Jackson and Billy North observed squaking with each other in the outfield [and never mind that fight in the A's clubhouse in Detroit on 5 June 1974]? But that didn't stop them from winning 3 World Series in a row. And the explanation? Not simply wanting to do the job. Nope. And not winning either. No one wins because they want to do the job or want to win. They win because they find losing to be a detestable emotion best never experienced.

2006-08-14 17:55:39
242.   Jacob L
The problem with the two previous 15-1 streaks is that 1977 still ended in misery and 1965 still ended in me not being born yet.
2006-08-14 17:57:31
243.   Jacob L
241 I think the A's also had some legendary fight at Dodger Stadium prior to a WS game. If I recall the story correctly, somebody asked Rollie Fingers if he'd remembered to leave tickets for his wife's boyfriend.
2006-08-14 17:57:52
244.   Linkmeister
24 "1965 still ended in me not being born yet."

Well, had we known, we would have shared. ;)

2006-08-14 18:04:20
245.   bhsportsguy
238 I know Kobe is a great target for when it comes to saying he is not a team player but certainly for the vast majority of the teaming of Shaq and Kobe, Shaq got all the shots he needed, and I would argue that in the end, when it was clear that Shaq needed to defer as he eventually did with Wade, he could not bring himself to do that here because for all the talk that Shaq is a team player, he has an ego equal to size of his body and he could not do it until he was humbled and frankly embarrassed by his trade to Miami.

I also heard Phil Jackson after the finals and he said that the one thing that Riley was able to do with Shaq that Phil could not do was to get him to get in shape and realize that he was not the player he was six years ago, that was something Phil counld not do.

Its all about perception and likeability, I can tell you that Kobe and Jordan (and in no way am I comparing them) had the same assist average for their careers. That Kobe often led the team in assists during the Shaq years. That towards the end, the reason why it looked like Kobe was taking a lot of shots was that his teammates would pass him the ball with 4-5 seconds left in the clock and he would have to take some pretty bad shots.

I hate to go on with this on a Dodger Thought comment area but I do think that in Kobe's case, it has always been about his persona rather that his game, I think we often have two issues with our sports heroes, we want them to perform at a high level but we also want to admire and like them as people and when those two things clash, its makes for great bar arguments.

Okay, back to Dodger baseball.

2006-08-14 18:11:01
246.   bhsportsguy
The Yankees just played Kate Smith's version of God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch.

Okay, how many of you know who is Kate Smith?

2006-08-14 18:12:14
247.   3upn3down
Jacob L, did you go to PVPHS? When did you graduate?
2006-08-14 18:12:44
248.   overkill94
238 Like Jon said, it's more of an overall feeling than specific moments including more than one player on a team.

Instead of chemistry, I feel like they should use concentration instead. On a good team, there's more pressure to not let your teammates down. On a bad team, mistakes are less pronounced because hopes aren't that high to begin with.

2006-08-14 18:12:52
249.   Linkmeister
246 I dunno, but every time she sang the Flyers won the Stanley Cup.

Or so the mythology has it, anyway.

2006-08-14 18:13:02
250.   3upn3down
Jacob L, did you go to PVPHS? When did you graduate?
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-08-14 18:13:22
251.   overkill94
246 I think she was in my 8th grade geography class.
2006-08-14 18:14:06
252.   s choir
239

there is no real "team" element to baseball

Just because baseball is mostly a collection of individual performances doesn't mean there's no team element. It is intangible, but it is still there. However, the level of play on an MLB squad is so high, that only the non-team players really stick out.

Teamwork on defense in baseball involves more than just double plays. There's positioning, which is huge. Relays. Pickoffs. Calling for flyballs. In the majors, the players are so good and so professional that mistakes on these plays (only one of which can cost a team a game!) are kept to a minimum. MLB players truly make this stuff look easy. They do it right 97-99 times out of 100. If a player constantly makes more mistakes on fundamentals than that, he won't be in the majors for long. And he definitely won't get signed by the Yankees.

No matter how good your pitchers are vs. their batters individually, and vice versa, you will not win many games in the majors if you can't play excellent team defense.

2006-08-14 18:16:18
253.   s choir
252 was for 238
2006-08-14 18:18:49
254.   bhsportsguy
Chemistry probably means less in baseball on the field than off while the other sports are exactly the opposite.

In baseball, you are together from the middle of February to September and hopefully beyond. With very few off days, you spend those 7 1/2 months dealing with your other 24 teammates, coaches, front office, medical personnel, etc.

Winning always helps but I think the Dodgers the fact that Grady was able to get guys so far to accept new roles, and adjust their playing time for the good of the team are good signs that things are going well off the field.

2006-08-14 18:24:43
255.   Linkmeister
The new regime has taken over Monday Night Football, and there is much gnashing of teeth out here. For years we've gotten it tape-delayed at 1830 so the worker bees could get home and watch it. This also meant that if you wanted to watch you had to avoid sports tv and radio. Now it's on live at 1400, and all those guys who went to bars on Monday evenings are out of luck.

However, the tv sked does say that it will be rebroadcast on ESPN at 1900. I imagine it will be edited "due to time constraints," though.

2006-08-14 18:25:34
256.   Gen3Blue
Heres what happened. Meant to take a nap here on the east coast. But I couldn't help rapping about that movie (MadX4World). Then I still had the sports schedule channel on DTV. They have linked it to "Deep Tracks" or some similar XM channel that plays a mix of mostly 60's-80's. I have a tiny Fender amp with drive and a peddle to put my Stratocaster through. I supposedly bought most of this stuff for my son who it didn't take on. Anyway I wailed till I see it is almost 9:30. Heck with a nap now Ehh?
2006-08-14 18:29:08
257.   Greg Brock
Chemistry. Ick. I prefer the term "getalonginess." that should be the phrase.

No? Okay.

2006-08-14 18:29:09
258.   tjshere
Our game chat thread is apparently XX-rated.
2006-08-14 18:29:25
259.   Sam DC
I know not from golf, though I have careened and six putted around the Rancho three par a few times. I've also climbed the fence in the middle of the night with large blocks of ice and zoomed down the smallish hills of the big course many times.

Been a while, of course, since either activity.

2006-08-14 18:30:29
260.   tjshere
Oh sure, NOW give it a title and make me look like an idiot. ;^)
2006-08-14 18:31:39
261.   s choir
255 Where are you?
2006-08-14 18:34:33
262.   Andrew Shimmin
252- How are the elements you listed (positioning, relays, pickoffs, and calling for flyballs) dependent on players liking each other? Your conclusion doesn't seem like it can be right, either, since there have been World Series winning teams without great, or even good, defense. If your pitching and hitting are good enough, they can make up for not great defense. They probably can't make up for flat out awful defense, but, perfect defense can't make up for flat out awful offense, etc.
2006-08-14 18:37:48
263.   s choir
262

How are the elements you listed (positioning, relays, pickoffs, and calling for flyballs) dependent on players liking each other?

I wasn't making the "it's important for players to like each other" argument. I never said anything about chemistry. You don't have to like your teammates to work well together.

I was only pointing out some of the aspects of defense in baseball that require teamwork that 238 left out.

2006-08-14 18:38:55
264.   Telemachos
I'm not sure if "chemistry" is the right word, but I'd say it could make a difference between a catcher and his starting pitchers (say), or between the double-play tandem of SS/2B. The more you intuitively know and understand how the player you're working with will react, the better the two of you will be in your execution.

Of course, it's entirely possible to not like someone personally and still know them intimately on the field.

2006-08-14 18:44:31
265.   s choir
MLB players are professionals at the pinnacle of their craft. Most of them do not let petty disagreements get in the way of winning. Chemistry is not the right word. Professionalism is.

That's the word I think of when I wonder why the Yankees and Braves have been so good for so long. When I watch the Yankees play, I can see their professionalism in the way they play, in the way they rebound from a mistake. It is noticeable, and it shows up in the win column and not necessarily in the stat books.

2006-08-14 18:45:20
266.   dzzrtRatt
262 It's not about the players not liking each other. It's about the individual player's feeling of well-being, security, excitement, fellowship -- factors that can be influenced by his peers -- contributing to his overall performance. These things affect a player's concentration level, adrenaline, stress, etc. A clubhouse where the player feels he is treated unfairly or is disrespected by other members of the team can, conceivably, affect the outcome of his play over the course of a season.

I have to say, the absolutism of those who see no such thing as chemistry amazes me. If you've worked in an office, or even worked on a team project at school, you know there is such a thing, as unmeasureable as it might be. These players aren't robotic executors of their talent algorhythms. They are human beings, and they react to other human beings.

2006-08-14 18:47:54
267.   Linkmeister
261 Hawai'i.
2006-08-14 18:49:53
268.   s choir
I thought Hawai'i was three hours behind PT, not 4... is there more than one time zone?
2006-08-14 18:50:21
269.   s choir
Or is MNF starting earlier this year...
2006-08-14 18:51:00
270.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
More on chemistry:
How about this issue? Encouragement, enthusiasm and excitement.

There's a code of ethics in baseball that discourages showing up an opposing player or team, and it is rarely "allowed" to wildly demonstrate anything that you'd see as cheering from members of your own team. And, since the season is so long, getting all excited about a single play or moment is greeted with skepticsm: just wait for tomorrow, rook.

What I wonder is if when players talk about chemistry, do they mean the subtle things that teammates can do to motivate each other, to bring excitement and enthusiasm to the game? I know that when I am a bit more enthusiastic about my work, I put a bit more into it (but then again, creativity requires more inspiration than does, say, hitting a curve ball).

Anyone have any thoughts on that intangible angle? It is a long season, so maybe one factor that turned 1-13 to 15-1 was simply a change in tide and some energy came back to the team.

2006-08-14 18:54:57
271.   trainwreck
MNF is now 5.
2006-08-14 18:55:24
272.   trainwreck
PDT.
2006-08-14 18:56:37
273.   PDH5204
243 Jacob L:

Yes, "Blue Moon" Odom happened to ask Rollie Fingers whether he'd gotten a ticket for his wife's boyfriend. That was before game 1 of the '74 A's vs. Dodgers World Series. Needless to say, a mighty row ensured in the clubhouse pregame. I was at that game, and it ended in an A's victory.

Another Blue Moon Odom "highlight" concerns the pennant clinching win against Detroit in '72. Following the game, a reporter asked Vida Blue why Odom had come out of the game. Vida then grabbed his throat and made a choking sound. That was soon followed by what the law calls a "mutual affray" [in the shower].

And to now address some others, that's why the chemistry is nice if you can have it, but it's not essential. I never liked all on the team. Didn't mean that I hated them or wished that they came to some violent end, but we'd not normally be partying or otherwise socializing together [except on the field and for affairs related thereto]. But still, such persons were on my team. And as much I didn't like them, still, I had to acknowledge that each was giving his all. And so, for two reasons, while nice, "getalonginess" is not essential: (a) I hate losing, and if the cost of my winning is that Mr. Unpleasant feels happy as well, then more power to him and to me, and (b) we were on the same team, and with him giving his all, how could I in good conscience do any less? You otherwise don't have to like someone to respect them. I mean, according to Field of Dreams, no one liked Ty Cobb, but one surely respected him.

2006-08-14 18:58:56
274.   Gen3Blue
252,262 I can't stongly take a side in your discussion except to say there is some truth in what 266 says.
But I'm interested in 252's stress on the professional level of baseball players, which is certainly true. They are put through intense training for several hundred games mostly between the ages of 18 and 24 before they ever see a major league game. A good athlete of the right size and shape will almost always succeed in Basketball or Football by the age of 22.
This is not true of baseball( as Michael Jordan so convincingly showed.) You have to also have the ability to hit or throw a 90mph pitch. Even with native ability this can take years to master, and in that time I think some of these team instincts often arise.
2006-08-14 19:04:11
275.   Andrew Shimmin
266- It's not absolutism, it's rebellion against the mythology of luck. So much of what is luck gets packed in to lunch bags of narrative that all theories of invisible value are suspect. As they ought to be.

I'm pretty sure my first point, that if the benefit isn't measurable, then it's not worth trading measurable value for, stands. But now the definition of the thing is getting slippery, so I'm being dared to come out in favor of coaches treating players unfairly. If that's the whole of the argument, that Coaches shouldn't be jerks, then I'm back on the other side, I guess. But how much of a problem is that? Is that what anybody means when the argument over chemistry comes up?

2006-08-14 19:11:43
276.   Andrew Shimmin
Mythologizing, even. Needs to be a verb. Gerunded.
2006-08-14 19:21:05
277.   dzzrtRatt
275 Luck and chemistry, as defined, seem like completely different concepts. I'm talking about things that cause a player to be more motivated, and thus play better for spans of time. How to motivate people is an aspect of social science. Probably when it comes right down to it, the manager is responsible for the chemistry 90 percent of the time -- via his ability to motivate players -- rather than whether the GM picked "good chemistry guys."

But it just stands to reason that teams can be hurt by an absence of well-being leading to an absence of motivation, caused by the presence of players who have aggravating personalities.

2006-08-14 19:49:10
278.   JMK
The thing is, dzzrtRatt, is that when most folks attribute something to "chemistry" in baseball it almost always seems to be a form of lazy analysis. To state the obvious, a team loses when it can't score runs and when it can't prevent runs. One can look at each individual player's OPS and see who on a team is not contributing to the run scoring effort. In run prevention, one can examine strikeout to walk ratios, homers allowed ratios, groundball ratios, to get an idea of who on a pitching staff is pitching effectively. To attribute wins or loses to chemistry tells us almost nothing, in fact, it seems to me that it tells me nothing, especially when you consider the vagueness of the term.
2006-08-14 19:55:45
279.   Andrew Shimmin
They're completely different concepts vying for claim to the same pool of actions. The results of luck, of pure chance, often get co-opted by chemists.

Motivation as a science is a new one on me. It makes sense, I guess. The only writing on the subject I'm familiar with are the business books full of MBA-think, with which I'm not much taken. That understates; when the revolution comes, I'll be the guy in charge of burning them all, in the parking lots of Walmarts across the country. I've also been tasked as a copy editor for the newsletter, but that's neither here nor there.

Anyway, I'm a little biased to begin with. But it's not like I'm unwilling to see it. My eyes are open and I'd be happy as anyone if the Emperor would put on some pants.

2006-08-14 20:45:53
280.   Jacob L
Re 250 -Probably too late to respond now, but no. I went to PV (first version before the closure). Class of 89.
2006-08-14 21:04:45
281.   3upn3down
Cool. I finished up at PVPHS in 95. Was Scott Peppard in your class?

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