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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
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11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Gagne: Did I Say Hometown Discount? I Meant ... Well, You Do the Math
2006-08-24 09:26
by Jon Weisman

Score one for the skeptics. From Allison Ann Otto of the Press-Enterprise:

A day after saying that he would accept a discount to re-sign with the Dodgers, Eric Gagne backed off that statement.

"All I'm looking for is fairness," the 2003 Cy Young winner said. "Hopefully I'll get that. I want to be a Dodger. I've been here. I know everyone. I've been treated with respect."

As for a discount, he said, "I don't think that's the right word."

Maybe the word he's looking for is, "Inconceivable!!!"

There are bigger hurdles for Gagne remaining a Dodger than his battles with semantics. After presumably buying out his 2007 option, the Dodgers do have an exclusive window to negotiate with Gagne on a short-term, incentive-laden contract. But those negotiations will be hindered by doubt concerning Gagne's ongoing recovery from injuries. And once that window expires - either in December if the Dodgers take the risk of offering Gagne salary arbitration, or in January if Gagne declines the offer, they cannot resign Gagne until May 1.

Meanwhile, every other team in baseball will be allowed to talk contract with Gagne in the months leading up to Spring Training - which is the time that a team could make the most informed decision about him.

The rules that discourage loyalty between player and team are an ongoing problem for baseball. In the sport's efforts to make sure the player's most recent team doesn't have an unfair advantage in negotiations, baseball has legislated a decided disadvantage.

* * *

Except for the aforementioned Vin Scully and friends, and perhaps Padres manager Bruce Bochy, no one was at their best last night - not Brad Penny, not Grady Little, not Julio Lugo, not the umpires, etc. Given how many breaks were going the Dodgers' way during their winning streak, it's hard to be surprised by this. But it was just one game of one series, and the Dodgers still left town not only in first place in the National League West, but third in the National League.

In the face of latent theories of Padre domination, Ken Gurnick writes at that this was the first home San Diego sweep of Los Angeles since 1999, and the first time ever that the Padres have swept three series in a season from the Dodgers.

As I've said before, the difference between a great player and a lesser player is in how many times they are great. None are always great; none are always terrible. Even the best Dodgers are somewhere below the best in the majors. But they will bounce back, and it's just a matter of how often.

* * *

Some late-season defensive stats were posted at Baseball Think Factory by Chris Dial. Dave Studeman of The Hardball Times calls Dial's numbers "probably the best fielding rankings available during the season."

In the comments of the thread, Mitchel Lichtman, who pioneered the respected but rarely public Ultimate Zone Rating (UZR), wrote, "Chris' numbers are so close to UZR that I would swear that he hacked into my computer!"

I still like the systems of John Dewan and David Pinto, but those don't come out until season's end.

How the Dodgers fare:

Above Average: Nomar Garciaparra
Average: Russell Martin, Andre Ethier, J.D. Drew
Below Average: Jeff Kent, Bill Mueller, Rafael Furcal, Kenny Lofton

In case you haven't heard, the Tangotiger 2006 Scouting Report by the Fans for the Fans is back and ready for your participation. It's a compliment to attempts to evaluate fielding statistically, inviting you to bring your observations to the head of the class.

Comments (174)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-08-24 09:42:19
1.   bagg4
Dodgers-Padres series just ended...
In this streaky year one thing has remained constant. Blue can't beat the Pads. Is it time to circle the wagons? Hardly. It's a long season, although it's about crunch time. I feel better about the Dodgers than I did at the Break. They could tank again....that's what a long season can be full of. 2005 got off to a tremendous start and we all know how that worked out. The remaining schedule favors the Dodgers over the Padres. Boys just have to get the job done.
2006-08-24 09:42:59
2.   KG16
What's the going rate for a reliever with two saves in the last two years?

I'm a huge mark for Gagne and would love to see him back with the Bums, but I wouldn't break the bank to bring him back (I'd rather do that to get an ace or second baseman not named Jeff Kent). One or two years, lots of incentives (though I don't know what kinds of incentives you give a closer).

2006-08-24 09:46:26
3.   bluetahoe
Gagne gets a guaranteed 1 million with incentives that could pay him as much as 5 million next season. Take it or leave it Eric. Neddie's not playing these games.

And to touch on some comments made in another thread.

*45. MJW101
Why are we so bad against the Padres? Is this a sign that we can only beat fair-poor teams, but choke when we play decent-good teams?

What does this portend for the playoffs (if we actually do make the playoffs that is)?

2006-08-24 09:02:1146. Jon Weisman
45 - It portends the Dodgers may have trouble in the playoffs if the Dodgers actually do make the playoffs*

Poppycock! The Dodgers went 1-10 against the mighty mets in 1988.

The Dodgers could have easily won 2 of 3 in this past series. If JD can catch a line drive it changes the whole complexion of game 1.

If Hendy pitches game 3 instead of game 2 we could have easily won game 3.

Instead of facing our ace, Lowe, the Padres lucked out again with Penny.

The Padres are no better than the Dbacks or Giants. What's this talk of the Padres being decent-good while the Giants Dbacks are fair/poor? Nonsense. Those 3 teams are evenly matched and their overall records support that. I'm just guessing here but I'm betting the fair/poor Dbacks have a better record against the decent/good Padres head to head. Likewise with the Giants-Pads head to head.

2006-08-24 09:48:14
4.   Eric Enders
No real surprises in those defensive rankings except for Martin rating only average. Which actually comes as no surprise at all given that catcher is the hardest position to quantify defensively.

Dial says:

"Catchers are done as an amalgam of caught stealing per inning above average, stolen bases per inning above average, errors per inning above average and passed balls per inning above average, at an average base advancement of 0.31 runs per."

So basically Martin is rated average defensively because the Dodger pitchers stink at holding runners on. Given an average pitching staff, I have to believe Martin would rate as an above average defensive catcher.

2006-08-24 09:49:26
5.   Andrew Shimmin
Wow. Look at Bonds. Really? And David Wright. And is Preston Wilson really that much worse than Dunn? Dunn?

Wow. Thanks for the link.

2006-08-24 09:56:05
6.   Jon Weisman
Bonds is discussed at length in the comments of that thread, I think.
2006-08-24 10:02:39
8.   Jon Weisman
3 - "May have trouble" means "might have trouble," not "will have trouble."

(I deleted comment No. 7, which was mine, because it addressed the commenter unnecessarily.)

2006-08-24 10:03:45
9.   Bob Timmermann
The Padres are no better than the Dbacks or Giants. What's this talk of the Padres being decent-good while the Giants Dbacks are fair/poor? Nonsense. Those 3 teams are evenly matched and their overall records support that.

San Diego - 65-62
Arizona, San Francisco - 62-65

There is more of a disparity between the Padres and the DBacks and Giants than there is between the Dodgers and Padres, going by W-L record now.

2006-08-24 10:12:43
10.   caseybarker
What is most frustrating for me is the pretty large disparity in run differential in the NL West. The Dodgers are expected to have two extra games.
2006-08-24 10:13:27
11.   caseybarker
That twoo extra WINS.
2006-08-24 10:20:32
12.   natepurcell
red sox sign daniel bard and lars anderson.

and, brandon belt is going to a JC instead of Texas so they will probably sign him too.

i want belt and anderson :(

oh, alex white attended class yesterday so we dont have his rights anymore.

2006-08-24 10:21:07
13.   Penarol1916
I blame myself for the sweep. I alternate passwords and whenever I use a password that doesn't include Dodger in it, they play poorly. I just had to switch 3 days ago. My fault guys, sorry.
2006-08-24 10:26:30
14.   natepurcell
also, re: gagne

good riddance Eric. You basically robbed the dodgers of 19 million these last two years and you have the nerve to want a "fair" deal?

2006-08-24 10:26:59
15.   Telemachos
After browsing the last couple of Jon's posts, I'm glad I didn't watch the game -- no need to have that extra aggravation.

Realistically, I think we need a strong showing in Arizona now -- 2 out of 3 at least, if for no other reason than to stop another potentially devastating losing streak.

2006-08-24 10:32:47
16.   Penarol1916
12. How are we doing with our other signings like Orr and that high school shortstop that we drafted?
2006-08-24 10:33:27
17.   Jon Weisman
14 - He didn't rob the Dodgers of anything. He earned that contract, and his injuries came in the line of duty.

Both parties are now welcome to agree or disagree on what's fair going forward, but Gagne doesn't have to feel guilty about the past two years (except for the fact that he might have tried too hard to make the contract look good).

2006-08-24 10:36:33
18.   Blu2
OK, I'm a pessimist, always have been, always will be. Here's my gloomy prediction for the last weekend of the season:
Best case scenario: We go into Battery-Chucker Park needing to win*at least* two games to make the playoffs.
Worst case scenario: We go in there needing to win at least two games to keep the hated ones from making the playoffs, thereby helping "our other friends" either the Pads or the Snakes make the playoffs.
What a heckuva choice!
2006-08-24 10:40:38
19.   caseybarker
The "Game Over" period of Dodger history was absolutely fun.
2006-08-24 10:45:34
20.   regfairfield
5 Every good defensive system I've seen released this season, rate2, Marc Normandin's system and now this, has Barry as an average fielder this year.
2006-08-24 10:52:59
21.   King of the Hobos
Baez had an emergency appendectomy last night and has been placed on the disabled list.
2006-08-24 10:54:34
22.   bluetahoe
You (Gagne) basically robbed the dodgers of 19 million these last two years

weren't the dodgers robbing Gagne in 03-04, kind of like they're doing to moy boy Saito today.

2006-08-24 10:55:42
23.   bluetahoe
*21. King of the Hobos
Baez had an emergency appendectomy last night and has been placed on the disabled list. *

So now we have a logical explanation to why Baez struggled in Dodger blue. His innerds were bothering him.

2006-08-24 10:55:59
24.   caseybarker
14 Do you know anything about when Brazoban will be back?
2006-08-24 10:58:50
25.   Andrew Shimmin
20- Well, I'm not sold, but it would be wonderful. How many runs have they cost themselves yanking him in the seventh? Add that to batting him fourth, no matter what--is it possible that Bonds would be the most valuable player of all time (ignoring any adjustment for steroids) if only the Giants used him more efficiently?
2006-08-24 10:58:59
26.   regfairfield
17 I have less sympathy for Gagne than I do someone like say, Dreifort, because of the way he handled things.

It seems that the proper protocol for a situation like Gagne's is to quietly do your rehab, then come back when ready.

It's not a good idea to go out and critize management when a big reason why the team stunk was because they had 10% of the payroll sitting on the bench.

I still love Gagne, but his comments this offseason, along with his continuing to pitch despite knowing he was hurt, really rubbed me the wrong way.

2006-08-24 11:00:18
27.   bluetahoe
Gagne's comments in the offseason were justified, IMO.
2006-08-24 11:00:30
28.   regfairfield
25 I think coming into this season, he was 200 runs behind Babe Ruth. I don't know if an extra 140 at bats and 200 innings in the field would make up the difference.
2006-08-24 11:02:20
29.   Steve
What a beautiful metaphor.
2006-08-24 11:02:26
30.   Jon Weisman
24 - Expected to be ready for Spring Training.
2006-08-24 11:04:05
31.   Andrew Shimmin
28- It's only 140 ABs lifetime?
2006-08-24 11:04:56
32.   Jon Weisman
26 - Gagne has often said things that have bothered me. But the only reason I would have less sympathy for him than Dreifort is that Dreifort never got to enjoy the success Gagne did - and even that's a specious reason. I wouldn't wish Gagne's last two years on anyone.

Except maybe Will Rogers. That guy just had an attitude problem. (Rule 7 violation)

2006-08-24 11:07:29
33.   Greg S
18- Since you reposted this, I figured I'd re-post this response...
Predictions don't normally have a best case and a worst case. In reality, the best case is that in the last weekend of the season we will have already clinched. The worse case is that we will have been eliminated. Instead of admitting your pessimism and then predicting the worst, why not just keep an open mind and enjoy the next month? At the very least, if you admit that you can't do so, why let others know?
2006-08-24 11:07:43
34.   regfairfield
31 Has he been hitting fourth all his career? 140 at bats would cover seven seasons.
2006-08-24 11:14:17
35.   GoBears
3. Poppycock! Nonsense

That tears it. Your drunk entrance into the board yesterday was sufficient to make me leave DT for the evening before I said something in anger. And now this.

Please ban yourself for another week. And when that week is over, repeat. I don't know you - you might be a terrific, warm, fun person in "real life" - but the disrespect you show for everyone here, especially Jon, is, in a word, disgusting.

And I say this while actually agreeing with you that Penny has been pretty bad lately. This isn't about opinions. This is about decorum. I've had it. Now I will go elsewhere as well, lest I contribute further to the despoiling of Jon's wonderful site.

2006-08-24 11:15:10
36.   JJoeScott
14 - Add up the "Game Over" (and "Ghame Over"?) shirt sales, plus the extra food and merchandise sold to the tens of thousands of fans who stayed past the 7th inning during Gagne's run, and the general buzz and interest he created, and I'd say he's earned that $19MM [as much as anyone can "earn" that obscene amount of $$].

Personally, I continue to think that, in general, many of the posters here on DT focus too much on how to spend Frank McCourt's money and not enough on whether the best players available are on being added to the roster. But I certainly understand that in the context of Baseball 2006, it is a salient discussion point ...

2006-08-24 11:16:19
37.   caseybarker
Dreifort, if I recall, held the Dodgers hostage to his demand to become a starter. That really rubbed me the wrong way.
2006-08-24 11:16:58
38.   Andrew Shimmin
I wish Gagne's last two years on me. I guess there's a reason I'm not a big league, um, anything. Millions of dollars for nearly no discernible work is my favorite daydream. Doesn't mean he stole it, though.

35- Huh. Looks like the plurality of Bonds's at bats have been in the three hole (3433). Next comes fourth (1913) then fifth (1807) then first (1797). So, there you go.

2006-08-24 11:22:12
39.   Jon Weisman
35 merits a warning, not a suspension, self-imposed or otherwise, based on impeccable good behavior in the past.

I came close to banning Bluetahoe for good last night, because I suspected he wasn't really drunk, but was cruelly making fun of another commenter.

But, perhaps to my own deteriment, I'm trying not to ban people.

2006-08-24 11:23:42
40.   JJoeScott
38 - RE: Bonds

Further, wasn't there a long stretch where Bonds himself insisted on batting fifth ...when he could have better been hitting 3rd? I've posted this before: I've tended to bat him 2nd in Strat leagues.

2006-08-24 11:24:43
41.   Eric Enders
"Millions of dollars for nearly no discernible work is my favorite daydream."

The key word being "discernible." Players work very hard at rehab (not to mention PR functions and the like) even when they're on the DL.

One of my biggest pet peeves is when people make comments about so-and-so getting paid to sit on his butt, or for working three hours a day playing baseball. Most baseball fans seem to think that the only work a ballplayer does is that which they see on TV every night. There's a lot more that goes into it than that, offseason included. I guarantee you major league ballplayers put in longer and harder hours than any of us commenting on this site. They are paid commensurately, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that these guys work their butts off.

2006-08-24 11:25:12
42.   Bob Timmermann
I thought that it was Jim Leyland who insisted on batting Bonds fifth.

Leyland wasn't as much of a genius then as he is now.

Actually Leyland's levels of genius-hood tend to be all over the map.

2006-08-24 11:28:16
43.   regfairfield
42 Jim Leyland just made Neifi Perez his leadoff hitter.

26 Fair enough, maybe sympathy wasn't the right word.

2006-08-24 11:29:51
44.   Andrew Shimmin
41- I shouldn't have allowed the impression that I didn't think he worked hard. Obviously he did. I wouldn't have, that's why I included the bit about there being a reason I'm not a big leaguer. I'd have taken the money, and rehabbed to the point that I could have signed checks. Just bad editing, not a shot at Gagne.
2006-08-24 11:35:55
45.   Linkmeister
44 "I could have signed checks."

You don't think the Dodgers have direct deposit?

2006-08-24 11:36:06
46.   Greg S
I don't mean to start an all out debate on how tough it is or isn't to be a ballplayer, but just to follow up on what you said...
One of the things that people usually don't think about in the life of a ballplayer is the amazing amount of time that is consumed by your job. Want to go to your friends wedding? Can't. Wanna go to your child's recital? Can't. Wanna see your friend who's in the hospital? Nope. Wife's having a baby? Maybe a couple of days, maybe not. From March to October (or even Nov), 7 days a week your time is your employers. You have to think about whether you would do that, even for millions.
2006-08-24 11:44:34
47.   Eric Enders
46 Great point. I've experienced that first-hand with my ballplayer brother. For 10 years he basically had no life except training for baseball and playing baseball. That's exaggerating a bit, but there are so many things he was unable to do that normal people with 9-to-5 jobs take for granted. And this is a guy who never even made it professional. He lives a normal life now. But for the major leaguers, it's a lifetime commitment.
2006-08-24 11:45:34
48.   D4P
Below Average: Rafael Furcal

More reason to think that Furcal's contract now rates as one of the league's worst in the off-season. And before you get too excited about his .749 OPS, it ranks 14th in the MLB.

2006-08-24 11:46:06
49.   Linkmeister
46 And you show up for a night game at 2 or 3 in the afternoon and don't get home till past midnight at the earliest. It's a full day for most of them.

On the brighter side, the commute probably ain't too bad, since it's contra-traffic.

2006-08-24 11:47:37
50.   bluetahoe
Furcal's contract set a tone.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-08-24 11:50:24
51.   This is Next Year
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
2006-08-24 11:51:06
52.   Greg S
As an example, the Dodgers flew from San Diego to Phoenix after the game yesterday. So they got to bed at, I'd gues, 2-3 AM. And that was after a long frustrating evening.
2006-08-24 11:54:06
53.   Jon Weisman
I have no disagreement about how hard ballplayers work or what they are forced to miss out on, but I think the counterpoint is that many people of all income levels face the same setbacks.
2006-08-24 11:57:04
54.   Greg S
53. I'm sure there are other jobs that require that much commitment. However, I don't know a single person who was one. Do you? Only thing I can think of off the top of my head is military. I won't attempt to compare that commitment.
2006-08-24 11:57:24
55.   bluetahoe
If I were a ball player the hardest thing for me would probably be staying faithful. I look good. I LOOK REAL GOOD. Couple that with being a star professional athlete..... oooooh, nelly.
2006-08-24 11:57:51
56.   Bluebleeder87

Boras dose not = fair.

2006-08-24 12:00:15
57.   Jon Weisman
Via LA Observed ...

... this site should be of interest to some readers here:

2006-08-24 12:00:16
58.   s choir
55 um.
2006-08-24 12:01:23
59.   Jon Weisman
54 - Some people have more than one job, and some kids almost never see both parents at once because they alternate shifts.
2006-08-24 12:02:38
60.   Penarol1916
D4P, is it me, or is BT increasingly resembling an old "friend" from the ESPN board?
2006-08-24 12:05:22
61.   Andrew Shimmin
54- Long haul truck drivers can have schedules the rival baseball players for concentration of time away from home, and probably most outpace ball players for total days per year, away from home.
2006-08-24 12:10:21
62.   Bob Timmermann
I'm really hoping that's another BT.


Long haul truck drivers rival baseball players in their use of greenies.

2006-08-24 12:13:22
63.   Bluebleeder87

i have a friend that played for florida state & briefly played in the minors for the Dodgers (don't wanna give out his name) but i totally see what your saying.

2006-08-24 12:18:19
64.   bluetahoe
For NFL Fans: Anyone notice the Monday Night Fottball has become Sunday Night Football? And vice versa.

The 'predicted' marquee matchup is now on Sunday night.

On Monday's you'll be seeing the Cardinals, Packers, Saints, and other predicted fodder on occassion. Kind of like how Sunday night football used to be.

2006-08-24 12:19:13
65.   D4P
D4P, is it me, or is BT increasingly resembling an old "friend" from the ESPN board?

I have had the exact same thought myself, but BT spells much better than F ever did...

2006-08-24 12:19:44
66.   Bob Timmermann
I again wish to bring up the inherent unfairness of having the day off and all the day games being blowout.
2006-08-24 12:25:09
67.   bluetahoe
65 ok. You've tickled my fancy. Who/what are you talking about?
2006-08-24 12:25:13
68.   D4P
If only you could follow the games from work...
2006-08-24 12:28:57
69.   bluetahoe
Colorado is crumbling at the seams. They do have Francis pitching against SD on Friday. I hope/expect Colorado to take 2 of 3.
2006-08-24 12:29:06
70.   Bob Timmermann
You can only follow them on Gameday from work.

That's the lesser way of following games. People who do that are not real fans I've been told.

2006-08-24 12:30:39
71.   blue22
65 - BT here seems to stay on topic more than the friend you're referring to. He doesn't seem as boastful of his personal life as he who shall not be named.
2006-08-24 12:31:03
72.   Eric Enders
66 OK, let's have a random off-day discussion topic then.

What do people think are the best albums of the 2000s?

I hereby present a top ten list:

1. The Dirty South – Drive-By Truckers
2. Yankee Hotel Foxtrot – Wilco
3. Transcendental Blues – Steve Earle
4. I'm Wide Awake, It's Morning – Bright Eyes
5. This Desert Life – Counting Crows
6. Mermaid Avenue Volume II – Billy Bragg and Wilco
7. Devils and Dust – Bruce Springsteen
8. Van Lear Rose – Loretta Lynn
9. Taking the Long Way – Dixie Chicks
10. Kids in Philly – Marah

2006-08-24 12:31:41
73.   Linkmeister
57 Hey, that could be useful for learning about UH V-ball opponents (both men and women) ahead of schedule. I should forward it to the coaches.


2006-08-24 12:32:18
74.   D4P
I think following games on Gameday is the Sabre way of following games, in that you can't be tempted to evaluate players based on the small sample sizes of what you see with your eyes when you watch the games on TV or in person.
2006-08-24 12:33:28
75.   das411
Cycle Alert! Aramis Ramirez needs a double in the next 5 innings @ Wrigley.

In related news: Wrigley Field 1, COLE HAMELS 0.

2006-08-24 12:33:37
76.   D4P
That too, though this could just be a different incarnation
2006-08-24 12:33:46
77.   Linkmeister
72 Do not expect me to contribute a single name. However, I will heartily concur with #9. That's a very good album, even leaving out the politics (which I agree with).
2006-08-24 12:37:41
78.   blue22
76 - good point.

72 - some off the top of my head:

Killers - Hot Fuss
White Stripes - Elephant
Coldplay - Rush of Blood to the Head

Amazing how many "recent albums" I was thinking of are actually mid-to-late 90s. Ah, getting old...

2006-08-24 12:38:00
79.   D4P
However, I will heartily concur with #9. That's a very good album, even leaving out the politics (which I agree with).

Ditto. Very good album. Combines some serious "in your face" with very pretty music.

2006-08-24 12:39:09
80.   blue22

Strokes - Is This It?
Audioslave debut
Linkin Park - Hybrid Theory

2006-08-24 12:42:35
81.   the OZ
72 I'll play.

Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots - the FL.
Sea Change - Beck
The Guest - Phantom Planet
Figure 8 - Elliot Smith
The Gray Album - (some DJ remixed Jay-Z's Black Album with The Beatles' White Album)
Relationship of Command - At the Drive-In
Green Album - Weezer

2006-08-24 12:42:50
82.   Penarol1916
72. I don't think that I've bought a single album released in the 2000's, unless you count #9, which I bought for my daughter.
I was tempted to buy Yankee Hotel Foxtrot since I was big fan of Uncle Tupelo back high school, but I just don't care about music too much anymore.
2006-08-24 12:44:12
83.   caseybarker
People still make albums...?
2006-08-24 12:45:21
84.   Eric Enders
82 I still worship at the feet of Uncle Tupelo. If you're at all still interested in them, you should read Greg Kot's biography of Wilco, which is also covers the Uncle Tupelo years in great detail and is fascinating.
2006-08-24 12:46:28
85.   King of the Hobos
I don't think I've bought, downloaded, or acquired using any method any album in the 2000s, and I'm likely the youngest guy here.
2006-08-24 12:47:26
86.   blue22
85 - What's your genre of preference? Why so down on new music?
2006-08-24 12:47:43
87.   the OZ
80 Linkin Park, to avoid hyperbole, is a band that I believe to be awful. I suspect this is true of most bands that were assembled from spare parts by producers to churn out genre radio-rock.

I hate the Linkin Park song where the guy screams about being oppressed by everyone around him. By "song", I mean "every song they've ever done".

2006-08-24 12:48:42
88.   Daniel Zappala
I'll plug just one album:

Vienna Teng: Warm Strangers

In fact, any of her three albums are great.

2006-08-24 12:48:58
89.   blue22
87 - Hybrid Theory is the best of the "Rap/Metal" genre, in my opinion. This may be akin to being King of the Hobos (pardon the pun 85), but I like it.
2006-08-24 12:49:10
90.   Penarol1916
84. Does it talk about the break-up? I was told by some friends that the last time we saw them in Columbia, MO, was the night that they broke up.
2006-08-24 12:50:20
91.   Daniel Zappala
86 I don't speak for King, but I generally won't buy albums any more, except by new artists or from indie labels, because of the RIAA.
2006-08-24 12:50:52
92.   Berkeley Doug
Can we do great albums/songs/groups of the 80s (the greatest era in music IMHO) instead? :)
2006-08-24 12:52:26
93.   caseybarker
Do movie soundtracks count?
2006-08-24 12:53:06
94.   King of the Hobos
86 I don't have a genre of preference, I just don't like music much.
2006-08-24 12:53:45
95.   bluetahoe
Green Day - "American Idiot" (even though I lean very very very far to the right)

Beach Boys - "Sounds of Summer"

Beck - "Guero"

Jimmy Eat World - "Bleed American"

Zwan - "Mary Star of the Sea"

2006-08-24 12:54:05
96.   Bluebleeder87

I feel you Bob.

2006-08-24 12:55:10
97.   DXMachina
"The Life Pursuit" -- Belle and Sebastian
2006-08-24 12:56:20
98.   Linkmeister
92 Ha! "In my day, boy, there was music! These bands nowadays...!
2006-08-24 12:57:16
99.   Bluebleeder87

how about great car commercial songs?

2006-08-24 12:57:37
100.   blue22
92 - Bad Religion 80-85
Metallica - Master of Puppets
Descendents - Somery
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-08-24 12:58:14
101.   blue22
100 - Oops...Fugazi - Repeater
2006-08-24 12:58:43
102.   the OZ
92 That's tougher for me, since I was born in 1980. Still, I really dig music from that decade, and spent a few weeks at work refining the 'perfect' 80s mixtape with my officemates . There were more great singles than albums, though, so here's my list of Top 80s Songs, based soleley on (1) their totally-awesomeness and (2) how much they represent "The 80s" in terms of sound and feel:

In no meaningful order:

Eye in the Sky - Alan Parsons Project
Sunglasses at Night - Cory Hart
True - Spandou Ballet
Take on Me -
Always Something There to Remind Me - Naked Eyes
Panama - Van Halen
Anything by Tears for Fears
Our House - Madness

There's a ton more.

2006-08-24 12:59:11
103.   Bluebleeder87

i don't think Zwan is together anymore right? the guy writes great tunes none the less smashing pumpkins/Zwan.

2006-08-24 13:00:23
104.   regfairfield
I'll bite, in no particular order:

Hybrid - Morning Sci-Fi
Beck - Sea Change
Cirrus - Counterfeit
Art Brut - Bang Bang Rock And Roll
The Blue Man Group - The Complex
BT - Movement In Still Life
Electric Six - Fire
The Wideband Network - Universe
VAST - Music For People
Jimmy Eat World - Bleed American

2006-08-24 13:01:37
105.   caseybarker
South Park soundtrack (not the movie but the TV show) is one of my favorites - is it 21st century?

I also loved the movie soundtrack to "Rockstar" with Mark Wahlberg and Jennnifer Aniston.

2006-08-24 13:01:44
106.   regfairfield
103 Nope, Billy Corgan is on his own now. I must say that the Zwan album is the only one I own where I can't recall a single song.
2006-08-24 13:03:03
107.   the OZ

Volkswagen's "Da Da Da." from the 90s. You know, the one where the guys drive around in a VW and do all kinds of random stuff while the music plays a simple beat with a monotone "Da Da Da." vocal line. That one was weird.

The Windows 95 ad with the Rolling Stones' "Start Me Up" was cool, to.

2006-08-24 13:03:37
108.   Penarol1916
102. Come on man, you didn't know that Take On Me is by Aha!? They are Norway's greatest selling musical act of all time.
2006-08-24 13:03:42
109.   Bluebleeder87
Take on Me -

the name of the band is Ah-ha my sisters loved that song so i kind of don't like it, great song but it just reminds me of my sisters yelling & screaming when that song would come out.

2006-08-24 13:06:56
110.   Bluebleeder87
Nope, Billy Corgan is on his own now. I must say that the Zwan album is the only one I own where I can't recall a single song.

he's always been on his own, he's another prince "& the revolution"

2006-08-24 13:07:41
111.   gcrl
american idiot - green day
body of song - bob mould
folker - paul westerberg
american iv - johnny cash
surgery - the warlocks
clap your hands say yeah - clap your hands say yeah
howl - black rebel motorcycle club
2006-08-24 13:07:47
112.   D4P
the Zwan album is the only one I own where I can't recall a single song


2006-08-24 13:08:10
113.   Telemachos
Telemachos : album discussion :: Xeifrank : TV show discussion
2006-08-24 13:08:51
114.   Bluebleeder87

i don't know the name of the car company but there's this really cool song they have, i think it's Jaguar but i'm not sure.

2006-08-24 13:09:36
115.   regfairfield
112 Yeah, I think I only listened to it once. Right around when it first came out.
2006-08-24 13:09:42
116.   the OZ
108 109 Haha, I knew that. I have no idea why I forgot to type it.

When the Jimmy Eat World single "The Middle" was on the radio, I couldn't figure out the words but it was super catchy so I'd have to sing it in my car. I went with "It just takes some time/Little griddle ittle bittle out the right..."

Of course, the actual line is "Little girl you're in the middle of the ride."

Wow, I'd forgotten how cool that album was. I'm going to convince my cover band to add "Sweetness" to the repertoire.

2006-08-24 13:09:54
117.   caseybarker
albums I can listen to all the way through
over and over
foo fighters- the colour and the shape
arcade fire- funeral
the postal service- (dunno?)
smashing pumpkins- siamese dream
so, many.......from Casey's wife
2006-08-24 13:10:50
118.   gcrl
my definitive 80s songs:

safety dance - men without hats
destination unknown - missing persons
relax - frankie goes to hollywood
in a big country - big country
st elmo's fire (man in motion) - john parr (?)
(don't you) forget about me - simple minds

2006-08-24 13:11:23
119.   caseybarker
el sol, my favorite zwan song
2006-08-24 13:13:38
120.   Penarol1916
113. You can join King of the Hobos and myself in the music apathy club.
2006-08-24 13:14:41
121.   Linkmeister
(Whining plaintively)

Aren't there any old guys here but me?

I know! Reissues! I can do reissues!

2006-08-24 13:14:58
122.   s choir
Have to add these

Dixie Chicks - Home
Radiohead - Kid A
Johnny Cash - The Legend of Johnny Cash

2006-08-24 13:17:23
123.   Eric Enders
121 I'm not an old guy but I can probably hold my own discussing old guy music.
2006-08-24 13:19:09
124.   Berkeley Doug
So many songs I've forgotten about. I may have to pay a little visit to iTunes tonight.
2006-08-24 13:19:30
125.   Andrew Shimmin
121- I only like old guy music.
2006-08-24 13:21:19
126.   Uncle Miltie
Below Average: Jeff Kent
Take that, rate2!


2006-08-24 13:21:39
127.   Bob Timmermann
Apple's wesbite is jammed so I can't find out if my laptop battery is going to blow up.

I will press on despite the added danger.

2006-08-24 13:21:47
128.   the OZ
122 'Kid A' better than 'OK Computer' or 'The Bends?' Or are you limiting yourself to the 2000s? Either way, I'd be curious as to how you would rank the Radiohead albums.

I go back and forth on Kid A. Sometimes I think it's almost as good as OK Computer and sometimes I just can't get fired up about it.

2006-08-24 13:21:58
129.   caseybarker
I second your radiohead, s choir
2006-08-24 13:23:02
130.   Bluebleeder87

it gets a thumbs up from me, it's pretty simple song but that's how i like my music.

2006-08-24 13:24:44
131.   Bluebleeder87
122 Dixie Chicks - Home

i have to confence i love anything Gwen Stefani.

2006-08-24 13:26:42
132.   caseybarker
anybody like hail to the theif? I was a bit bummed at that one, except for "there, there"
2006-08-24 13:26:50
133.   Andrew Shimmin
127- Mr. Simpson, I don't use the word, "Hero," very often. . .
2006-08-24 13:30:15
134.   the OZ
Amnesiac is basically a Kid A b-side. The band thought about releasing a double album (which would have been Kid A and Amnesiac combined, essentially) but decided against the idea. The songs were all recorded at the same time, though.

Very few, if any, of the Amnesiac songs were worth releasing, in my opinion.

I feel the same way about much of HttT, but I really dig "Scatterbrain", "Wolf at the Door", and "Where I end and You Begin". "Drunken Punch-Up at a Wedding" was great because of the bass line and the fact that it's the most un-Radiohead song I've ever heard.

2006-08-24 13:30:28
135.   Bluebleeder87
i have to confence i love anything Gwen Stefani.

just to add to my comment SHE'S A MEGA BABE.

2006-08-24 13:31:20
136.   SCRocks
Albums in the 2000's

Some of these have been mentioned but I thought I would echo some cause they are just that good.

Radiohead- Kid A (A slight nood over Hail to the Thief)
Arcade Fire- The Funeral (There live show is better than the album
Bob Dylan- Bootleg Series Vol. 7 No Direction Home
Explosions in the Sky-The Earth Is Not a Cold Dead Place
My Morning Jacket- At Dawn
Tom Waits- Mule Variations (came out in '99)

2006-08-24 13:34:37
137.   Bluebleeder87
136 *Arcade Fire- The Funeral (There live show is better than the album

i've heard from other peaple that there really good.

2006-08-24 13:35:02
138.   dagwich
I'm mostly with 121, but I do recognize some of these band names. But when these discussions of recent pop music come up, I think back to the time I was in the car with my Dad in the late 60's, and "I Got You Babe" by Sonny and Cher came on. My Dad's response was "I don't get this modern music!!" and he shut off the radio.

I hate to say I'm turning into my Dad, but if the shoe fits...

Actually, I like Radiohead a little, the Dixie Chicks are OK but I prefer much grittier country. From Eric's list The first Mermaid Ave and Transcendental Blues I like alot.

Most of my musical taste runs to just really different genres.

2006-08-24 13:42:14
139.   Jon Weisman
107 - People realize that that song was an actual song that got big play on the radio, not something that Volkswagen invented, right?

2006-08-24 13:48:00
140.   Sam DC
Hey all - first mobile comment ever! Checking in from the rafters of Miller Park, where I'm pacing w/a sleeping toddler. Brewers tring to hold off the Rox - 8-6 in the 7th. Italian won the Sausage Race, after which they played the Hora.

Earlier this trip, I had the pleasure of seeing the Wisconsin Athletic Walk of Fame - Pants Rowland is up there, next to Alan Ameche.

No internet or newspapers or cable for me lately, so here's the from-a-distance view on the Dodgers: Wow - they're still in first place!

Doubt I'll be checking comments agin' for a while - hope you're all good.

2006-08-24 13:51:33
141.   Bob Timmermann
Come back Sam!!!
2006-08-24 13:52:56
142.   Linkmeister
123, 125, 138 Thank you for your support.

It's not that I don't like the new stuff, it's that I've been an NPR news/talk listener for 15 years and don't listen to commercial radio.

2006-08-24 13:55:25
143.   Andrew Shimmin
Sam, because you recklessly decided to take a vacation, I had to read about another Washington Poster taking a shot at Kornheiser in T.J. Simer's column. I hope you're proud of yourself.

And I hope that the vacation is going well, and all that stuff.

2006-08-24 13:55:32
144.   Eric Enders
142 I've never in my life listened to commercial radio. It's still possible to discover lots of new music.

In fact, NPR is how I find a lot of music these days.

2006-08-24 13:56:03
145.   JJoeScott
Flashing back to last night's game for a second, the San Diego Union Trib correctly recaps what occured -- including the fact that Penny was supposed to face one more batter -- though lavishing high praise upon Bruce Bochy while doing so:

2006-08-24 13:57:21
146.   Jon Weisman
140 - Commenting with the sleeping toddler? Awesome.
2006-08-24 13:58:49
147.   Bluebleeder87
Come back Sam!!!*

he's gone for the moment Bob, it's o.k. he'll be back with us.

2006-08-24 13:59:15
148.   gibsonhobbs88
I just need to take a few parting shots from last night's "Debacle at Petco"! The umpires to me have now made the term "Umpire's Integrity" an OXYMORONIC Statement! Such a thing does not exist!!
Under Bud Selig's administration with no umpire accountability, umpires are allowed to bait players and managers into arguing and then toss them for infractions that they caused, misinterpreting the rules, not understanding the rules and misapplying the rules they fail to understand is now status quo in MLB!! BTW I admit to an Anti-Selig bias after reading a book several years ago from a writer that had inside information on the events and factors that led to O'Malley selling the team to Fox. Listed as the second major factor is "Sneaky, Back-stabbing manipulative Bud" who basically usurped and kept O'Malley out of the power ownership committees, ignored Peter's warnings and pleas to work with the player's union prior to the 94 strike. Bud has worked it to punish the Dodgers since for the past successes we had in Los Angeles! SELIG IS AN LA-HATING, SNEAKY BACKSTABBER THAT NEEDS TO BE REMOVED FROM THE BASEBALL UNIVERSE!!!!
2006-08-24 13:59:25
149.   dagwich
144 This is true. For instance, "All Songs Considered" is a pretty great place to sample new music.
2006-08-24 14:00:22
150.   Robert Fiore
Remember that year the Mets beat the Dodgers like a drum all the way to the playoffs? 1988?
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-08-24 14:01:24
151.   Jon Weisman
What was the URL for that anti-caps lock website again?
2006-08-24 14:03:08
152.   Andrew Shimmin
Then put your little hand in mine. . .
2006-08-24 14:03:36
153.   Andrew Shimmin
2006-08-24 14:05:28
154.   Uncle Miltie
Terrible news

What is Disney going to do?

2006-08-24 14:07:17
155.   gibsonhobbs88
151 - Sorry, Jon. I am still a little worked up about the latest MLB black eye at the Dodgers expense! I have just seen too much over the years and I get highly sensitized when I see another example of Umpires lack of competence or integrity. I normally don't use all caps when I write, only when I'm extremely upset!! I apologize for the all caps but not the content or feelings about the current baseball commish!!
2006-08-24 14:07:53
156.   Bob Timmermann
Apple has described my laptop battery as not one that is going to catch on fire.
2006-08-24 14:08:23
157.   Daniel Zappala
142 This is how I found out about Vienna Teng. I don't do commercial radio either.
2006-08-24 14:08:30
158.   Bob Timmermann
My previous post left out a crucial word:

Apple has identified my laptop battery as one that is NOT going to catch on fire.

2006-08-24 14:09:51
159.   gibsonhobbs88
Pluto demoted from Planetdom, Dodgers swept in SD, Jon Benet's alleged killer still in Los Angeles on a Colorado case costing us CA taxpayers money! Are these all signs of the Apocalypse??

Just wondering?

2006-08-24 14:10:05
160.   Bob Timmermann
I've been all over the Pluto story! You've got to keep up.

The Griddle is your place for discussions of minor orbital bodies.

2006-08-24 14:10:25
161.   Daniel Zappala
158 No, you just put the not in the wrong place.
2006-08-24 14:11:49
162.   Bob Timmermann

Thanks, not enough Diet Cokes and coffee yet today.

And the smell of smoldering flesh keeps bothering me.

2006-08-24 14:11:56
163.   the OZ
156 Apple only makes two kinds of bateries: those that catch fire, and those that don't.

154 I don't know what Disney is going to do. Maybe reclassify Mickey's dog as a Kuiper Belt object?

Speaking of Disney, the people that brought you ESPN Mobile are launching Disney Mobile, targeted at families with smaller children. The era of the Mobile Virtual Network Operator is upon us!

2006-08-24 14:12:22
164.   Marty
My 2000 albums:

Beck Guero
White Stripes Elephant
Wilco Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
Wilco A Ghost is Born
Carlos Guitarlos Straight from the Heart

2006-08-24 14:13:39
165.   Daniel Zappala
160 Ooh, you mean we can discuss 2003 UB_313 there?
2006-08-24 14:14:30
166.   Uncle Miltie
160- didn't see it. I've been pretty with school and "other stuff". Can you imagine how Clyde Tombaugh would feel if he were alive today?
2006-08-24 14:21:20
167.   Frip
I feel like taking a nap whenever I see Jeff Kent. Just looking at him lowers my metabolism. Strange phenomenon.
2006-08-24 14:24:33
168.   Eric Enders
160 When I was a kid Clyde Tombaugh was kind of a local celebrity around town (he was still an astronomy prof at NMSU). I got to meet him at a few planetarium shows and the like. I was (and remain) an avid backyard astronomer, so he was one of my heroes along with Gibson, Hershiser, Hardaway, et al. I was always proud of being able to say I met the only living guy to discover a planet.

Scientifically, I think the astronomers made the right decision. Emotionally, I am genuinely bummed.

2006-08-24 15:00:33
169.   Linkmeister
168 Check out the link I just posted at the Griddle for Pluto's concession speech.
2006-08-24 15:01:20
170.   DXMachina
159 Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria!

As to Pluto, it's been a planet since 1930, and it's still only made it about a third of the way around the solar system in all that time. It's slower than Jason Phillips. It was time to cut it from the roster.

2006-08-24 15:03:58
171.   Jon Weisman
170 - LOL

We're not selling bluejeans, here. We're choosing planets.

2006-08-24 15:23:15
172.   Eric Enders
170 How do you justify keeping Neptune in the lineup then? It's just as slow and can't even stay inside the baseline.
2006-08-24 15:48:28
173.   PDH5204
Pluto got a raw deal and demands to be traded, to a solar system with inhabitants that treat planets with respect. I mean, it wasn't too long ago that management [the IAU] said:

"No proposal to change the status of Pluto as the ninth planet in the solar system has been made by any Division, Commission or Working Group of the IAU responsible for solar system science. Lately, a substantial number of smaller objects have been discovered in the outer solar system, beyond Neptune, with orbits and possibly other properties similar to those of Pluto. It has been proposed to assign Pluto a number in a technical catalogue or list of such Trans-Neptunian Objects (TNOs) so that observations and computations concerning these objects can be conveniently collated. This process was explicitly designed to not change Pluto's status as a planet."

Pluto otherwise wishes to make clear the fact that it is a planet, since it has satellites and is otherwise massive enough to retain an atmosphere [tenuous, but still an atmosphere]. And management brings up this lame concept of orbit. Orbit, shmorbit, who really cares? And Pluto's satellites are Charon, Nix, and Hydra. In their devious and despicable efforts to defame Pluto, management had previously reported that Pluto and Charon might be a "binary planet" system, but Pluto wishes to make clear, as management must now admit, that Charon does not have an atmosphere. Charon is otherwise Pluto's child, created long ago when some massive object collided with the then proto-Pluto. Pluto wishes to also make clear that in its continuing efforts to defame him, management has rather convenienty ignored that the mechanism of Charon's creation was precisely that same mechansim that gave rise to the earth's moon, but yet we don't hear management reporting that it wishes to downgrade the earth's status. Lastly, this entity called the Baltimore Sun, and Pluto will forgive the name, but the Baltimore Sun at least sees that the lame and pathetic attempt unjustly accuse and malign Pluto:

And, yes, Pluto is indeed here, a sphere, and so management need get used to it...

2006-08-24 16:06:54
174.   gibsonhobbs88
170 & 173 - LOL - Discrimination against small distant planets! Defamatory statements of the IAU will now be included in Pluto's class action law suit supported by the SDPU (Small Distant Planets Union){similar to earth's ACLU}. According to a spokesman for SDPU "Neptune gets to stay because the IAU claims Neptune's body is bigger, so they consider it a planet so they are discriminating against Pluto due to it's lack of size". David Eckstein can empathasize with Pluto, always being told too small to play with the big boys.
George Steinbrenner was quoted as saying "Insignificant-added nothing to the solar system-more profits for the rest of the SSA"(Solar System Association)!! It was learned that Jupiter (Yankees) would take two of Pluto's satellites for a minor asteroid to be named later.
2006-08-24 16:24:05
175.   PDH5204

Pluto also wishes to direct the attention of humanity to Dr. Bojan Pecnik, who correctly reports that the planet-defining criteria ought to simply be whether or not the object in question has the ability to retain an atmosphere and otherwise orbits the sun [and not some other planet, like that pretender named Triton]. The gravitational dominance of one's orbital zone, which is the misguided mantra of those so set on falsely denigrating Pluto, otherwise speaks only to the dynamics of Pluto's surrounding environment and says nothing at all about Pluto's intrinsic physical property. Pluto would simply ask the arrogant defamers whether they have any idea, even an inkling, of how it hard it is for tiny Pluto to retain an atmosphere as against the vacuum that is interplanetary space?

Pluto otherwise wishes to express its solidarity with Mercury, which does not have an atmosphere, but has the ability to retain one, and so Mercury stands as an appreciated and welcome member of the planetary club. Pluto otherwise has no objection to Ceres and Xena being added to that club. Pluto also appreciates and is otherwise humbled by the efforts of those who conducted the "Save Pluto" campaign. Lastly, Pluto takes immeasurable pride in the fact that it will soon be assuming its rightful role as the resting place of the ashes of Clyde Tombaugh, the "discover" of Pluto. Power to the people!

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