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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

If I Had a Boat, I'd Go Out on the Ocean
And If I Had a Pony, I'd Ride It On My Boat
2007-11-14 13:21
by Jon Weisman

The Kamenetsky Brothers and David Neiman invited me to guest on their Purple, Gold, and Blue online show today, to talk mainly about the Dodgers, Alex Rodriguez and Miguel Cabrera. And ponies.

My portion begins about 40 minutes in.

* * *

From Diamond Leung of the Press-Enterprise: "The Dodgers have finalized a three-game series with the Red Sox from March 28-30 to conclude spring training, and one of the games is expected to be played at the Coliseum."

Update: Ken Gurnick of says it's confirmed that the Dodgers will play at the Coliseum on Saturday, March 29.

Comments (366)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-11-14 13:29:18
1.   D4P
In a statement released by Rodriguez he said he and his wife Cynthia have spoken directly with Hank and Hal Steinbrenner.

It is absolutely clear, however, that the negotiations -- which never really got started last month -- are now on-going, and agent Scott Boras is not part of the dialogue.

"Alex reached out to the Yankees, and he made it clear he wants to be a Yankee," said one source. "He understands what has to be done."

Rodriguez released the following statement on his Web site.

"After spending time with Cynthia and my family over these last few weeks, it became clear to me that I needed to make an attempt to engage the Yankees regarding my future with the organization.

Meanwhile, friends of Rodriguez say he has been embarrassed by what has taken place. Last week, one high-ranking official with an AL team made this prediction: "I think A-Rod will go back to the Yankees himself and make a deal without Scott involved," said the executive. "This way, he can get back into the good graces of the fans, and still get the biggest contract he can get."

2007-11-14 13:30:25
2.   LogikReader
Well as long as he's happy (and rich).
2007-11-14 13:34:44
3.   Xeifrank
LAT'd... The latest McCovey Chronicles blog entry is probably of interest to most of you. They are debating the possible MCAB trade rumors to the Dodgers and what effect it would have on the division long term. It's interesting to see how frightened they are of our young players and how they want us to give them all up in a trade for MCAB. And a few good jabs at making Pierre a LFer. vr, Xei
2007-11-14 13:36:46
4.   fanerman
Who is/are MCAB?
2007-11-14 13:37:13
5.   kylepetterson
I saw Lyle Lovett at Floores Country Store outside of San Antonio a couple years ago - Awesome venue and quite possibly one of the best shows I've ever seen. He and his Large Band played for over 3 hours. It was fantastic.
2007-11-14 13:38:02
6.   ToyCannon
Miggy Cabrera
2007-11-14 13:40:10
7.   ToyCannon
That should make you happy. A player dissing the great agent Scott Boras. Not just any player but the best player in the land according to his agent.
Not that Boras would be upset with the 25 Million windfall for screwing up the process.

Bronx Banter must be going crazy.

2007-11-14 13:41:47
8.   dzzrtRatt
In answer to ToyCannon on Luis Sojo, I LAT'd myself with this answer:

149. dzzrtRatt
139 I'm not sure if I'm getting your point. Sojo was another bench player. His busiest season for Torre, he only played 77 games, and though I don't follow the Yankees close enough to know, I assume some of those games he was a pinch-something or late-inning defensive replacement.

What did Torre do when his GM handed him a starting player who didn't produce? If he kept playing him regardless, then he's just like Little. But my sense is Torre doesn't do that.

As a manager, I could see Torre taking the position that you can't motivate your players to improve if one guy gets to start every game no matter how little he contributes.

I mean... If Luis Gonzalez had complained about why he had to sit while Pierre plays, he'd have had a legitimate point.

Anyway, it's just a "hopeful hypothesis." Maybe Torre is from the old school that sees Pierre as a great on-base guy, a sparkplug, a catalyst, a great distracter of pitchers, a guy who "creates" runs, plus a good American and a soul bound for glory. Maybe he'll think 162 games isn't even enough of a reward for a player of Pierre's superlative merits. If so, I'll be grumpy. But, to me, the Dodgers have needed a manager who doesn't suffer fools gladly, and I see Torre-Mattingly-Bowa as a tough-minded trio.

2007-11-14 13:42:25
9.   Xeifrank
4. It's talk in NASDAQ ticker symbols day.
vr, Xei
2007-11-14 13:42:55
10.   fanerman
6 Oh. I thought it was someone from the Giants or something. Is MCAB his nickname? Spelled in all caps?
2007-11-14 13:44:00
11.   Humma Kavula
1 Ya know, as long as the horse is dead and I have this club that I'm not doing anything with, does it really do any harm to beat it?

With that in mind, here's a thought: that A-Rod reaching out to the Henrys Steinbrenner might be orchestrated by Boras. Isn't that a way of making it seem like the Yankees are involved and a contender for A-Rod's services? At the end of the day, A-Rod can still go wherever the most money is and say, "I wanted to stay a Yankee, and Boras wasn't involved, but the Yankees still couldn't get it done."

Who's playing who here?

Take that, horse!! [Whack! Whack!]

2007-11-14 13:45:58
12.   Xeifrank
Wonder when the tickets for the Dodgers/Red Sox games at the Coliseum will go on sale? Would they allow the stadium to fill to maximum occupancy? When/if these tickets go on sale, I'm there!

vr, Xei

2007-11-14 13:47:45
13.   ToyCannon
Dodger Thoughts day at the Coliseum would be a great way to start the season. Stan from Tacoma would have to fly down for that event.
2007-11-14 13:48:36
14.   RIYank
7 Bronx Banter is still a bit skeptical.
At first, skeptical that any 'scoop' by the Daily News could be true; now it's more a matter of wondering whether the point is really to jump-start the bidding.
2007-11-14 13:52:23
15.   D4P
That should make you happy. A player dissing the great agent Scott Boras. Not just any player but the best player in the land according to his agent.

I'm not sure if it makes me happy or not. If Boras is truly getting dissed and is losing money and/or credibility, then I like it.

2007-11-14 13:54:11
16.   blue22
14 - That's what I think too. ARod goes in to meet with the Yankees, all by himself, and says "make me your best offer". He then texts that to Boras, who immediately communicates that (+20%, natch) to Moreno, Ned, Ken Williams, Theo, etc. as the price to pay for ARod.

I think some of these other teams were anticipating a potential "discount" on ARod due to the Yanks non-involvement. Boras just needs a number from the Yanks to get things moving.

2007-11-14 13:57:07
17.   blue22
Or maybe he just wants to be a Yankee, at least so says his website:

2007-11-14 14:03:44
18.   fanerman
17 To quote Admiral Ackbar, "It's a trap!"
2007-11-14 14:05:09
19.   RIYank
Yeah, 16 17 it could be either one.

Thing is, if it's a ploy, he's going to come out looking seroiusly sleazy, isn't he? Does he care? Is Cynthia on board with a big hoax? I don't pretend I can understand how his mind works, but, you know, "it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for $35M, Alex, for $35M?"

2007-11-14 14:07:16
20.   dzzrtRatt
If Arod does everything that's implied by this action, including the salary cut and the jettisoning of Boras, and assuming he continues to play well and stays with NY til he retires? We're talking DiMaggio - Mantle status in the Yankee pantheon.

Jeter will be looking hard for something he can do to measure up. I mean, what a performance. Getting the biggest contract in baseball and making it look like he's made a sacrifice!? Cue Sinatra!

2007-11-14 14:13:32
21.   was it tims mitt i saw
sounds like every awkward first date i've had
2007-11-14 14:16:56
22.   D4P
To quote Admiral Ackbar, "It's a trap!"

Leia also said that too.

2007-11-14 14:18:18
23.   D4P
Leia also said that too

As well. In addition.

2007-11-14 14:18:31
24.   fanerman
22 But Leia said other things, too. That was Admiral Ackbar's one shining moment.
2007-11-14 14:25:33
25.   jasonungar07
and to quote Lando's weird copilot


2007-11-14 14:29:58
26.   DodgerBakers
20 Hold on there, don't you know that ARod isn't a True Yankee™? Good grief, I found a whole Yankee fan website dedicated to getting rid of ARod. They even had T-shirts!
2007-11-14 14:35:27
27.   BlueCrew Bruin
25 Who knew he was a fan of our future shortstop. Too bad he didn't know how to pronounce his name.
2007-11-14 14:44:59
28.   Bob Timmermann
It's very nice of the Dodgers to provide the Red Sox with a playing field that has a short fence in left field so they don't get homesick.
2007-11-14 14:47:46
29.   OldD099erFan
The Ds should just make a take-it-or-leave-it offer to Arod so they don't have to sell the farm for MCab. They should offer:

2008 - 28M
2009 - 28M
2010 - 29M
2011 - 29M
2012 - 30M
2013 - 30M
2014 - 31M
2015 - 27M plus 4M in incentives based on HRs, RBIs, etc
2016 - 27M plus...
2017 - 27M plus...

But the last three years would also be a Dodger option to buy him out for non performance or not being able to play enough games.

Arod is guarenteed 205K for 7 years ($29K+/yr), plus another 27M-30M for an additional 3 years if he continues to perform.

If the Ds negotiate for MCab, they will have to give up 3-4 top rookies with no assurance he will stay. I would much rather pay a little more for Arod and keep the kids.

2007-11-14 14:52:01
30.   Xeifrank
28. Will that game feature the "one up rule"? Where if a team hits a home run over the short fence they are not allowed to hit another one over the short fence (otherwise it's an out) before the other team hits one?
240 feet to LF is amazing. How high will the screen be? Perhaps they can put seats up on top of the screen.
vr, Xei
2007-11-14 14:52:28
31.   Bob Timmermann
For the record, there is no publicly traded stock in the US that uses MCAB as its ticker symbol.

I was hoping there was.

Nor is there an AROD or ODOG stock. Also there is no stock that is HU.

Lowe's Company uses the ticker symbol of LOW.

There is a penny stock called WEBB. It's only listed on the Pink Sheets.

2007-11-14 14:54:52
32.   Xeifrank
29. I don't think the Dodgers make that trade for MCAB without locking him up to a long-term deal as part of the trade. It's a tough call as to which is better, signing AROD or trading for MCAB. I think it all depends on which players the Dodgers have to give up in a trade for MCAB.
vr, Xei
2007-11-14 14:57:58
33.   blue22
29 - ARod will be in his mid-to-late 30s for the duration of the proposed 7-year contract.

Cabrera will turn 25 at the start of next season. Any extension will cover Cabrera's age 27-32(ish) seasons.

2007-11-14 14:59:31
34.   Xeifrank
31. BTIM, you have to make up your own symbols. vr, Xei
2007-11-14 15:00:05
35.   jasonungar07
2007-11-14 15:06:35
36.   MJW101
Nomar in 2007:

Apr 26 307/351/416/767
May 26 268/317/289/606
Jun 23 247/261/306/567
Jul 24 308/382/423/805
Aug 11 250/289/417/706
Sep 11 324/361/471/832

A decent 11 game streak in September, with the club in 4th place, does not offset the very poor Apr/May/June/Aug. Nomar is indeed done. Give him his $11M and stick a fork in him.

2007-11-14 15:07:43
37.   Bob Timmermann
BTIM is trading for $0.60 a share.
2007-11-14 15:08:47
38.   bhsportsguy
Andrew and Brian and David and Jon's Excellent Adventure

"Joining us now is Jon Weisman of and Dodger Thoughts, a very excellent blog and website a very very excellent site."

2007-11-14 15:10:21
39.   dzzrtRatt
32 Arod going back to the Yankees means Miggy's price goes up and probably out of our desired range. The whole shot of getting either was to take advantage of a glut of HOF-level third-sackers. Arod returning to the Yankees, which I don't think is in any serious doubt now, leaves Cabrera standing alone.

I'll enjoy watching Cabrera on the Angels. Maybe they'll take Kent off our hands to plug the hole they'll create for themselves at second base.

(Oh relax, Jamie. I like Kent! I'm sure he'll send your ear back one of these days.)

2007-11-14 15:11:31
40.   bhsportsguy
38 You can just tell that even speaking about the possibility of making the deal for Cabrera is giving Jon a headache.
2007-11-14 15:13:36
41.   Greg Brock
1. Ask guest questions
2. Interrupt answers
3. Profit???
2007-11-14 15:13:49
42.   paranoidandroid
All I want for Christmas is A-Rod. I guess being a Jew means I won't get a Christmas gift.

PLEASE have the Yanks deal fall apart. Pretty please?

I'd pay him 300 mil for 10 years. Instantly.

2007-11-14 15:16:40
43.   fanerman
2007-11-14 15:19:08
44.   Bob Timmermann
BTIM has had better days.

2007-11-14 15:19:44
45.   The Mootz
43 Jim Cramer and Fanerman, leading the way in telling you how to spend your money.
2007-11-14 15:19:55
46.   Greg Brock
42 We could sign several less talented players over a series of days, and sign A-Rod on the eighth night.

Or we could set a place for Elijah...Dukes, that is.

2007-11-14 15:20:06
47.   Jon Weisman
Jason Collins has played 141 minutes for the Nets this season, scoring two points.

He has outscored Minnesota's Mark Madsen, who is recovering from shoulder surgery following a summer jet-ski accident. Amazingly, he's still on the roster.

I remember the one time I went waterskiing, they assured me I couldn't get hurt, but I sprained my shoulder.

2007-11-14 15:21:56
48.   dzzrtRatt
42 but how do you compete with "I'd take a discount to play for you, Yankees?"

It's possible of course that Boras will parachute in like he did when Eric Gagne started talking about a "hometown discount" and slap Arod around a little bit.

Who was the guy who stepped in and claimed he represented Hochevar for 24 hours? Maybe Boras can bring that buy back into the picture and blame him.

2007-11-14 15:22:44
49.   Xeifrank
39. isn't AROD heading back to the Yankees still speculation? vr, Xei
2007-11-14 15:25:17
50.   Lexinthedena
It has been talked about before...but does anyone see Tejada as the new 3rd sacker next year?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-11-14 15:29:03
51.   D4P
isn't AROD heading back to the Yankees still speculation?

Yes, as is "ARod dumping Boras".

2007-11-14 15:29:35
52.   Greg Brock
50 My Magic 8 Ball says "Ask again after the Mitchell Report."
2007-11-14 15:30:36
53.   D4P
When does your Ball indicate that the MR will drop?
2007-11-14 15:30:51
54.   blue22
50 - Baltimore still wants actual value for him (someone we won't want to give up), his performance has taken quite a downturn since testing for PEDs began (a coincidence, I'm sure), and his defense is suspect at best.
2007-11-14 15:32:15
55.   LogikReader

This little tidbit from the following ESPN article:

Might lend credence to the "negotiation."

Before the 2002 season, the Atlanta Braves bypassed Boras and negotiated a six-year, $75 million contract with Andruw Jones and his father.

2007-11-14 15:32:44
56.   Greg Brock
53 {Shakes Magic 8-Ball}

Concentrate and ask again. Or concetrate and ask again.

2007-11-14 15:33:04
57.   Daniel Zappala
I think it helps to put rumors in the proper perspective if you picture reporters as teenage girls:

Girl 1: That A-Rod is hot! Somebody is going to give him $300 million, for sure!

Girl 2: No way! Cabrera is even hotter! And younger! I'd give up Billingsley, Kemp, and LaRoche to have him on my team!

Girl 1: A-Rod is in much better shape! Look how buff he is! Cabrera is fat. Ewww!

Girl 2: But I want Cabrera now! Daddy! Tell them to throw in Kershaw.

Girl 3: Guys! You won't believe this! A-Rod is down the street talking to George! Without his agent!!!

Girl 1 and Girl 2: OMG! Let's go!

2007-11-14 15:34:43
58.   bhsportsguy
A new quote for the sidebar:

"Dodger Thoughts, most excellent Dodgers website!"

Andrew and Brian Kamenetzky, Los Angeles Times

2007-11-14 15:35:46
59.   Jacob L
42 46

My general experience was that I got the big gift on the first night. Later in the week, it falls off to the middle relievers and utility infielders of Hannukah gifts.

What night does Hannukah start this year anyway?

2007-11-14 15:37:03
60.   bhsportsguy
59 December 4th
2007-11-14 15:37:04
61.   fanerman
44 45 If there were a stock that matched my name, I'd probably buy a share for kicks.
2007-11-14 15:40:34
62.   Jon Weisman
61 - Mr. T probably did.
2007-11-14 15:40:52
63.   Disabled List
55 And when you combine that with the Yankees and Colletti refusing to negotiate with Boras, it makes you wonder if the owners haven't stumbled on to a new and above-board form of collusion.

What if all 30 owners said "We won't negotiate with Scott Boras, just his players"? Interesting.

2007-11-14 15:42:54
64.   D4P
Maybe every GM at the recent meeting stood up during the sharing time and said that their goals for the off-season included not negotiating with Boras.
2007-11-14 15:43:43
65.   Disabled List
The closest ticker symbol to my name is DL.L, on the LSE. It's up 11 points today!
2007-11-14 15:44:12
66.   Daniel Zappala
Speaking of Chanukah:

Yes, it's safe for work!

2007-11-14 15:45:35
67.   Bob Timmermann
Wait a minute. bhsportsguy knows when Hanukah is and the rabbi's son doesn't?

I'm really confused.

For those fasting at home, Ash Wednesday is February 6 and Easter Sunday is a mighty early March 23.

Easter has not occurred as early as March 23 since 1913. And it will not be that early again until long after all of us are dead.

Or beyond the chart I'm looking at.

2007-11-14 15:46:35
68.   bhsportsguy
63 That might still fall under the spirit of collusion and MLB would have to be very leary of that type of communication taking place.

Basically, competitors, especially in a closed market, just cannot talk about any type of group actions. Period.

2007-11-14 15:46:36
69.   jasonungar07
But would they negoitate with Bob Loblaw?
2007-11-14 15:48:29
70.   bhsportsguy
67 I have one of those calendars that lists those types of dates nearby.
2007-11-14 15:48:29
71.   underdog
I hear UDOG is selling for $1.25 a share; fortunately, no one's associated it with the motion picture.

I wish the Dodgers would just keep their ALAR stock, since analysts say that one is sure to skyrocket in value, while other similar 3B stocks are overpriced at the moment.

2007-11-14 15:49:31
72.   bhsportsguy
67 You mean "A tradition like no other" will not be taking place on Easter Sunday.
2007-11-14 15:49:41
73.   Greg Brock
those types of dates

What do you mean, "Those types" of dates? What are you trying to say?

2007-11-14 15:53:38
74.   Jacob L
60 Yikes, that is soon! I knew I had to start my Hannukah shopping soon, but I wasn't paying such close attention. Maybe that will light a fire under Ned, so to speak.
2007-11-14 15:54:27
75.   Daniel Zappala
Next time Easter will be on 23 March: 2160. Last time it was that early was 1913. It will be on the 22nd of March in 2285. The last time it was that early was 1818. The 22nd is as early as it can be.
2007-11-14 15:55:20
76.   jasonungar07
My best Hanuka...

Hand Held football game, socks, van halen fair warning tape, van halen diver down tape, rush moving pictures, rolling stones tatoo you, velor v-neck sweater vest, easton black magic baseball bat, and the topper was a fila full sweatsuit(navy)..circa 1983

2007-11-14 15:57:23
77.   bhsportsguy
73 Sorry, I mean things like religous holiday, first day of winter, Daylight Savings time changing, election day, etc.

Unfortunately, it does not tell me when the Rule 5 draft takes place or at what point does Jeff Kent finally have to tell us what he is doing.

2007-11-14 15:58:52
78.   bhsportsguy
76 That was probably too late for the great Mattel handheld football game, where a pass could be completed two screens away.

And who remmembers Intellivision, anyone, anyone?

2007-11-14 16:00:42
79.   Jacob L
76 Mattel Football II? A huge Hannukah highlight for me as well! I didn't get so much heavy rock circa 83. I remember getting Journey Escape on LP, probably that same year. Also, little baseball purist that I was, I was still using Louisville Slugger wood bats in Little League.
2007-11-14 16:01:33
80.   jasonungar07

Yeah I think it was a later version of this one. Mine was Brown.

2007-11-14 16:01:46
81.   Jon Weisman
78 - Me, me. I always wanted one. But I had the Mattel handheld football game, famous for its 99-yard runs and ability to run up the score.
2007-11-14 16:02:52
82.   Greg Brock
77 I think we all know what you meant, bhsporstguy.

Mattel handheld football was the balls. The evolution from Mattel to 10 Yard Fight to Tecmo Bowl was glorious.

Tecmo Super Bowl was another plane of existence. Stats!

2007-11-14 16:03:02
83.   Jon Weisman
80 - I had that original one.
2007-11-14 16:03:25
84.   underdog
Oh man, I had one of those Mattel football games when I was around 7 or 8. I used to drive my sister crazy playing that thing after bedtime, under the covers, all you could hear was "beep boop beep booop beeeeep..." Amazing how much our imagination filled in during the Pong/Mattel handheld era. I also had a handheld (if larger) baseball game which had a replica of a field/diamond on the face and then led lights for every position in the field. You'd swing the "bat" button, trying to time it just right - whatever that meant. It would go crazy when you hit a home run. So would my irritated family.
2007-11-14 16:04:05
85.   Greg Brock
79 I used a Louisville Slugger in Little League. But not in All-Stars, or after the age of 11.

A man's got to compete with the big boys.

2007-11-14 16:04:50
86.   Jacob L
80 I had that one. I also eventually got this one (probably around Hannukah 81-83)-

It featured that incredible football innovation - the forward pass.

2007-11-14 16:05:04
87.   underdog
Man, is this the Dodger Thoughts Happy Hour for 37-42 Year Olds?
2007-11-14 16:07:33
88.   Sam DC
Funny -- I was just this afternoon trying to figure our a good simple handheld baseball game for my 7 year old's Hanukkah.

Any suggestions?

2007-11-14 16:07:56
89.   Jacob L
84 That reminded me of going away to summer camp, and hearing the whole cabin's sleeping bags going BEEP BEEP BEEP into the night.

Mattel Hand Held Games = Things My Kids Will Never Understand

2007-11-14 16:08:52
90.   Sam DC
10 Yard Fight -- after Defender, my favorite all time video game.

Trying to line things up for the 70 year pass . . .

And shaking free of tackles.

Anyone remember Picwood bowl?

Even if you don't, you can figure out where it was.

2007-11-14 16:09:16
91.   Daniel Zappala
I got that Mattel football game (II) for my son a few years ago, and demonstrated that I could whoop him soundly, even 20 years after last playing it. Yes, I was ruthless. Hand-eye coordination never leaves you.
2007-11-14 16:09:39
92.   El Lay Dave
80 81 I had that too, as a HS senior. It ceased to hold interest once you could play it perfectly, but until that point, boy did we have some fun. (woo hoo)
2007-11-14 16:10:05
93.   bhsportsguy
83 One small Seinfeld connection. The one time someone could say I want to play with my girlfriend's toys and make no apologies for it.
2007-11-14 16:11:11
94.   El Lay Dave
I also recall, as a college student, getting a bruised hand from playing the Atari arcarde football with the trackball control. Good times.
2007-11-14 16:12:33
95.   jasonungar07
I loved Start Me Up, Tom Sawyer and Pretty Woman. I was all about the hits! (Fair Warning was a throw in and it turns out, for me anyways to be their best album)

Ah memories.. I still have a pic, with my mom in her koufax jersey on hanuka(lol, my mom fits George's mom on Seinfield to a tee) trying to give me a kiss with my head down and totally into my football game.

I very much recall Intellevison. Those were rare, like betamax! They had those funky controllers)

I was way to into jumping over alligators on pitfall though to concern myself with trying to get my parents to get me Intellevison.

2007-11-14 16:12:45
96.   bhsportsguy
90 Yes, kids can go to that spot and see "art" movies for much more money without the fun.
2007-11-14 16:17:24
97.   underdog
94 That's nothing! I actually drew blood from that thing when it pinched flesh of the palm of my hand. I wanted to suck it up and keep playing, but coach took me out. It was hurting too much.
2007-11-14 16:17:56
98.   Bob Timmermann
Picwood Bowl:
2007-11-14 16:18:40
99.   Bluebleeder87
Bronx Banter must be going crazy.

Yeah, no kidding.

2007-11-14 16:19:19
100.   Sam DC
That is awesome!

I love the interwebs.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-11-14 16:24:28
101.   Peanuts in My Shoes
All my friends had the Mattel, and this is what I got: Head-to-Head Football

Surprisingly, it was the real Coleco version, and not the Sears version--though my Atari 2600 (and just about everything else) was Sears all the way.

2007-11-14 16:24:30
102.   Jon Weisman
From our very own DT commenter:

2007-11-14 16:25:33
103.   bhsportsguy
98 At the basketball game at some school just north of that establishment, my friend who attended same school two decades lamented that the arcade is much smaller and of course the bowling alley is long long since gone.
2007-11-14 16:28:01
104.   Marty
All this handheld talk makes me feel very old. When all you guys were doing that, I was learning how to have my ego destroyed by every girl I could find.
2007-11-14 16:28:02
105.   Robert Daeley
I had the Mattel Football, as well as this:

One of the plastic overlays, I want to think Basketball, may still be lost underneath the bleachers (solid kind not the bench kind) in the gym of my elementary school.

2007-11-14 16:29:34
106.   Sam DC
104 "handheld" makes you think of that huh?
2007-11-14 16:32:33
107.   dzzrtRatt
102 Sorry to be so out of it, but I know everybody here by their fake name. Which commenter? This was hilarious.
2007-11-14 16:33:34
108.   Greg Brock
107 NBP
2007-11-14 16:34:25
109.   Marty
Not all of the names are fake
2007-11-14 16:34:59
110.   jasonungar07
I have to agree that 102 was great!
2007-11-14 16:36:40
111.   bhsportsguy
104 Remember this show?

Many television sets could have been ruined because of it.

2007-11-14 16:38:32
112.   El Lay Dave
111 Good lord, I do. I can still sing a bit of the theme song. My folks never sprung for the sheet; fortunately no TV was ruined.
2007-11-14 16:40:09
113.   El Lay Dave
104 Believe me, I was aware how big a loser I was spending all that time in the campus arcade at UCLA instead of trying to meet coeds. At least you had the [guts] to try; I had no idea how to approach or talk to a girl.
2007-11-14 16:42:17
114.   Marty
Winky Dink and me, Winky Dink and you....
2007-11-14 16:42:45
115.   dzzrtRatt
109 Marty, I thought you were Bob Timmermann!

One I've always wondered about, to be honest, is Greg Brock. It's a common enough name. Maybe his parents named him Greg Brock. It's a perfectly good name. Or maybe he's paying tribute to the one of the best, most disappointing first baseman the Dodgers had in between the Garvey and the Loney epochs.

2007-11-14 16:45:00
116.   Humma Kavula
My name isn't really Humma Kavula.
2007-11-14 16:45:38
117.   Greg Brock
115 It's a tribute to "Mr. Replacement for Steve Garvey and Future Eleventy Time All Star."

Symbol of the Dodgers in my lifetime. Disappointing.

2007-11-14 16:47:17
118.   bhsportsguy
115 He wishes his parents named him Greg Brock, its more interesting than his real name. He does insist his students call him Mister Brock.
2007-11-14 16:47:40
119.   Marty
Didn't Brock and Ratt meet at the DT game? You were both there.
2007-11-14 16:52:50
120.   Jacob L
117 Why not Mondesi? Or Darryl Strawberry?
2007-11-14 16:53:30
121.   Greg Brock
119 He was over at the other end. I didn't really get to meet anybody outside the six or seven folks I sat next to.
2007-11-14 16:54:46
122.   Ken Noe
I've started using my real name. It makes me a more pleasant poster. But if I had a handle , it would be Davey Lopes.
2007-11-14 16:56:43
123.   Eric Stephen
109 All the "real namers" sat next to each other at DT Day, even if they don't remember it. :)
2007-11-14 16:57:00
124.   Bob Timmermann
Actually, I'm Spartacus!
2007-11-14 16:59:00
125.   ToyCannon
No, I'm Spartacus
2007-11-14 17:00:23
126.   Jon Weisman
My real name is ShiftyJ.
2007-11-14 17:01:09
127.   Bob Timmermann
We had this discussion once before.

I'm Spartacus on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.

You're Spartacus on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.

We trade off on Sundays.

2007-11-14 17:01:23
128.   Greg Brock
My real name is Dan B. Cooper.
2007-11-14 17:02:19
129.   fanerman
My fake name is a nickname based on my real (last) name, given to me by my high school sophomore year English teacher.
2007-11-14 17:02:35
130.   Kevin Lewis
who gets it this Sunday?
2007-11-14 17:03:40
131.   Eric Stephen
If I used a fake handle, I would go with either Mike Davis or Alejandro Peña. Or maybe "1983 AL ERA Champion Rick Honeycutt".

(I'm aware that Peña won the 1984 NL ERA crown, but for some reason I like having only Honeycutt use it as a title)

2007-11-14 17:03:40
132.   Bob Timmermann
ToyCannon is Spartacus this coming Sunday.
2007-11-14 17:05:13
133.   Jacob L
128 This Dan B. Cooper?

2007-11-14 17:06:36
134.   jasonungar07
Man u guys are all so funny. But I thought Ryan Stiles or Carol Channing was Spartacus
2007-11-14 17:06:39
135.   Greg Brock
Feral Children Alert:

The Learning Channel.

2007-11-14 17:07:31
136.   El Lay Dave
1/3 of my handle is real.
2007-11-14 17:07:48
137.   Greg Brock
133 I can neither confirm nor deny that.

{counts money}

2007-11-14 17:08:30
138.   El Lay Dave
Alejandro Peña also wore Jon's #26, didn't he?
2007-11-14 17:10:03
139.   fanerman
I like having my name partly grounded in reality.
2007-11-14 17:11:35
140.   Jacob L
I seem to remember that Alejandro Peña's run as a promising starter was ended by a fall in the shower.
2007-11-14 17:12:41
141.   Eric Stephen
136 It was nice meeting you at DT Day, El.
2007-11-14 17:13:36
142.   dzzrtRatt
119 I don't about you, but almost everyone introduced themselves to me this way.

"Hi I'm mumble-mumble. You, know, Fleshy Thigh."

"Oh, hi Fleshy Thigh! I'm jbbbb sbsbbgj. You know, dzzrt Ratt."

"Hi dzzrt Ratt!"

Marty did have the advantage of being "Marty."

2007-11-14 17:14:54
143.   Daniel Zappala
Every year, Greg Brock visits Ariel, Oregon and is the highlight of their D.B. Cooper Days.
2007-11-14 17:16:16
144.   Daniel Zappala
I hope I can attend the next DT Day with all 13 - 18 of my kids.
2007-11-14 17:16:49
145.   Bluebleeder87

That is why it is good having 6 sisters. You learn the dues & do knots, different personalities & so on.

2007-11-14 17:17:06
146.   bigcpa
little known fact... "big" are my initals. I am in fact skinny.
2007-11-14 17:21:43
147.   ToyCannon
My wife will be pleased. She never seems to happy on Monday, Wednesday, or Friday.
2007-11-14 17:22:42
148.   Sam DC
Davidson makin' like App State?
2007-11-14 17:31:07
149.   El Lay Dave
145 I always assumed that was true. I have no sisters and I am the oldest, so I didn't even have a big brother bringing girls around. I didn't even have girl cousins living locally.
2007-11-14 17:31:30
150.   Bob Timmermann
Davidson is supposed to be good.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-11-14 17:31:58
151.   Bluebleeder87
So I guess Alex Rodriguez wants to stay a Yankee, I really hope NedCo doesn't do anything panicky. I wouldn't mind if Nomar & La Roche ducked it out at 3rd base.
2007-11-14 17:34:01
152.   Sam DC
150 Like That's Incredible! good?
2007-11-14 17:38:07
153.   El Lay Dave
152 If the writers' strike becomes prolonged, we can look forward to a bumper crop of stellar shows like that. Charles Barkley can be the new Fran Tarkington.
2007-11-14 17:41:18
154.   Sam DC
153 Charles Barkley, Howie Mandel, and Elisabeth Hasselback.
2007-11-14 17:48:09
155.   underdog
Can't they just devote a block of programming to a live feed of Naomi Watts reading the newspaper and doing a Sudoku puzzle? I'd almost pay for that! Better than more "Dog the Bounty Hunter" and other scary reality show garbage.
2007-11-14 17:49:37
156.   silverwidow
Rotoworld said Kobe vetoed a trade to Detroit for Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Amir Johnson and a 1st round pick.
2007-11-14 17:52:19
157.   Dodgers49
Rodriguez Talks to Yankees Without Agent

>> "It's a relief for Alex to know that the Yankees still want him, and now that he knows that, he's going to work something out. Whatever they have to do to work it out, they're going to do it. He was willing to eat crow, and he did."

## Rodriguez is free to negotiate with other teams, but no team — except perhaps the Los Angeles Angels — has seemed willing to give Rodriguez a raise over the $32 million he could have made in 2009 and 2010 under his original Rangers deal.

The lukewarm market was one of the reasons Rodriguez came back to the Yankees, and another was his business empire. ##

%% In any case, while the Yankees understand that Rodriguez has a right to representation, the sign that he was willing to talk without Boras is encouraging to them. But it does not mean that Rodriguez will necessarily fire Boras. %%

2007-11-14 18:20:11
158.   D4P
Bad trade for the Pistons.

At some point Kobe's gonna have to realize that whichever team he gets traded to is gonna have to give up something significant to get him, and that they aren't necessarily going to be better when he arrives.

2007-11-14 18:27:20
159.   gvette
"IF" that NY Times report is true,
the Marlin's price for Cabrera will now be sky high.

Without a doubt,even if Boras isn't in the room,one of his minions/assistants from his evil empire in Newport Beach will be there.

This is a throwback to the pre Marvin Miller/union days when old school GMs like Bavasi would literally throw players out of their offices if they brought an agent. Koufax and Drysdale were abused by the press and public for trying to use an agent in '66.

2007-11-14 18:35:37
160.   Daniel Zappala
"IF" that NY Times report is true, the Marlin's price for Cabrera will now be sky high.

... which works in the Dodgers' favor. They won't trade for Cabrera at such steep prices, and they'll instead use LaRoche at 3B, which is a great "consolation" prize.

2007-11-14 18:38:45
161.   KG16
156 - mark it down, Kobe will be a Laker through the playoffs this year.
2007-11-14 18:39:43
162.   KG16
As far as the name thing goes, KG are my initials, it stands for Kinsington Geovarra... or not.
2007-11-14 18:40:09
163.   Gen3Blue
I was LATed in a most embarassing way-- I was about two posts behind! I've only spent a few minutes catching up with what seems to be going on with A-Rod, but I am afraid we are about to see what a great ballplayer can do against a good lawyer in the legal arena. At least A-Rod appears to know how incredibly horrendous this whole thing looks. I give him credit even if he realized it way to late.
2007-11-14 18:42:41
164.   Gen3Blue
151 I agree if that is "duked".
2007-11-14 18:42:49
165.   KG16
Wow, of all the places that I'd like to have my ashes spread, Pirates of the Caribbean is not very high on the list.

2007-11-14 18:48:39
166.   Frip
161 I've marked it down. I don't usually mark things down, but since you said so and it's so utterly important...
2007-11-14 18:51:38
167.   KG16
166 - I don't normally say "mark it down", nor do I expect anyone to actually mark it down when I do... so I appreciate it.
2007-11-14 18:53:09
168.   Sam DC
From article on the possible games in Beijing: It would be the first MLB games of any kind in that country, which banned baseball during the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s.

I had not known that.

And I am confused. The Red Sox are going to open their regular season in Japan, and then come back and play exhibition games against the Dodgers, and then continue their regular season?

2007-11-14 18:59:04
169.   D4P

2007 ERA

American League: 4.63
National League: 4.65

2007-11-14 19:03:34
170.   D4P
To clarify, 169 reports starter ERA. But still, it's interesting that the AL is lower.
2007-11-14 19:04:21
171.   Dodgers49
The Dodgers have finalized a three-game series with the Red Sox from March 28-30 to conclude spring training, and one of the games is expected to be played at the Coliseum.

Question: Does this mean our Red Sox fan (McCourt) has replaced the Freeway Series with a Red Sox Series?

2007-11-14 19:05:39
172.   Gen3Blue
The Dodger charter jet form China was forced down over Taiwan. Fortunately after two days in their seats the Dodgers were able to get a ride on the Red Sox jet from Japan, and they fullfilled their obligations to play games at the Coloseum and Dodger stadium. Perhaps the fatigue suffered in the early season helps explain
why both teams had record injuries and finished fourth in their respective divisions....

It is intriguing watching these young men find out they have no choice and bow to Boras---I remember Luke Hockevar...

2007-11-14 19:07:22
173.   Bob Timmermann
The Red Sox will play the A's in two games in Tokyo and then come back to the US for a few days and play two more in Oakland on April 1-2.

The Dodgers and Angels are supposed to play one preseason game. But with six regular season games, the need to play the preseason Freeway Series has been obviated.

2007-11-14 19:15:29
174.   KG16
170 - according to BR, the overall ERAs broke down as such:

NL: 4.43
AL: 4.50

2007-11-14 19:15:32
175.   Bluebleeder87
If anything at least Boros is getting a peace of humble pie with that brain cramp he had.
2007-11-14 19:17:39
176.   Bob Timmermann
So, it seems everybody hates Scott Boras. And most people don't seem to like baseball owners either.

So just who do you think should be getting the lion's share of the vast amounts of baseball revenue?

Should it all be plowed back into an autonomous collective to buy cheese or something like that?

2007-11-14 19:22:39
177.   KG16
176 - I hold no grudges against either side. But I'm a capitalist, and capitalism is nothing more than the mutual exploitation of resources.
2007-11-14 19:25:09
178.   Bob Timmermann
Six billion dollars would buy a lot of cheese.

I should find out if America produces $6 billion worth of cheese in one year.

2007-11-14 19:29:06
179.   Daniel Zappala
Bob, you're a hero. My kids love any joke with 'cheese' in it.
2007-11-14 19:29:21
180.   Bob Timmermann
The USDA says in 2005, the US produced about 8.5 BILLION pounds of cheese. So I assume that's worth than $6 billion.
2007-11-14 19:32:02
181.   StolenMonkey86
So, how does A-Rod to the Yankees go with the conspiracy theory of Epstein and Beinfest were leading a collusion? Would Epstein really go for a conspiracy that led to A-Rod going back to NY at possibly a lower price?

And can we get Wilson Betemit back now?

2007-11-14 19:34:39
182.   Greg Brock
Not everybody hates Scott Boras.
2007-11-14 19:36:13
183.   Bob Timmermann
But how do you feel about cheese?
2007-11-14 19:39:05
184.   Greg Brock
183 Big fan.
2007-11-14 19:40:49
185.   Daniel Zappala
I like Gruyère.
2007-11-14 19:43:22
186.   Bob Timmermann
Is anyone else watching the Akron-Miami football game on ESPN?

I feel it is my duty to watch since no one else should be.

It's 7-0 Miami late in the game and the only score came on a fumble recovery.

2007-11-14 19:46:16
187.   El Lay Dave
185 What?? Not fontina, provelone, mozzerella, romano, mascarpone, gorgonzola, parmigiano?
2007-11-14 19:49:22
188.   Bob Timmermann
$6 billion can buy a lot of gorgonzola.
2007-11-14 19:49:59
189.   gvette
Miami of Ohio, the bedrock of the peculiar midwesterm species of authoritarian football coaches--Paul Brown, Woody Hayes, Bo etc.

As for Boras, he does what he's paid to do, maximize his client's earning power.

As a fan, does it matter whether J.D. Drew gets the money, or that the McCourts get a $30 mil Malibu beachhouse?

2007-11-14 19:53:41
190.   KG16
186 - I'm watching the Laker game, and playing a poker tournament, I'm also doing some "work" related stuff. Akron and Miami just doesn't seem too appealing at the moment.
2007-11-14 19:53:56
191.   Bluebleeder87

I hate Boros WAY more than I hate McCourt.

2007-11-14 19:55:25
192.   StolenMonkey86
anyone think A-Rod pulls a Hochevar?
2007-11-14 19:55:43
193.   Bob Timmermann
The Redhawks win 7-0. Akron had a chance at a tying touchdown late in the game, but a wide open receiver fell down trying to come back for a pass that got caught up in the wind.
2007-11-14 19:59:24
194.   Ken Arneson
188 Not if you shop in the wrong cheese shop sketch.
2007-11-14 20:00:25
195.   Sam DC
190 Hey -- I saw Annie Dukes testify in Congress today. She is seriously smart.

And a Congressman said that no one bets on fantasy football and she laughed at him.

You don't see that everyday -- witnesses laughing at Congresspeople.

2007-11-14 20:00:31
196.   Eric Stephen
192 Who plays Eli Iorg? Torii Hunter?
2007-11-14 20:01:14
197.   Sam DC
I am impressed by and respectful of Scott Boras.

I don't actually know him to like him or not like him.

2007-11-14 20:01:58
198.   Sam DC
154 I'm concerned that no one has tried to better my casting here.

I'm not sure That's Incredible! 07 is going to make it.

2007-11-14 20:03:57
199.   El Lay Dave
198 Don't mess with perfection. You were spot on.
2007-11-14 20:06:28
200.   El Lay Dave
Scott Boras is very effective at what he does for his clients. He plays hardball negotiation and there's no mistaking that his clients are primarily interesting in making as much money as possible. His clients (should) know what message they are sending to the GMs when they hire him. And the GMs should understand who they are dealing with. From a GMs perspective, Boras is, a least somewhat, the devil they know.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-11-14 20:08:56
201.   gvette
198-- There can only be two choices;

1)In the 21st Century, Ryan Seacrist will own, control,or host every form and outlet of entertainment. He will be like his mentor Dick Clark, only truly immortal.

2) If Seacrist is too busy,Frank Caliendo(well rested after Frank TV) is always available

2007-11-14 20:08:56
202.   Daniel Zappala
197 I would like to think that if I was an agent I would try to place a player in a good situation, whether that be a town his family liked or a team that had a chance to go to the playoffs regularly, even if it meant taking a little less money. My impression is that Boras goes for money above all else. Maybe that's what his clients tell him to do. Maybe he actually does counsel them that they could take a little less if they had higher priorities. Maybe I would be a really bad agent.
2007-11-14 20:12:35
203.   Greg Brock
That's Incredible needs a jock, a piece, and a sheister gameshow host.

I say Boomer Esiason, Kelly Rippa, and Drew Carey.

2007-11-14 20:13:36
204.   Mark Linsey
176 - I feel that most fans would rather see both players and owners with less money, and lower prices for fans. Of course, that's not really how it works - big free agents don't cause price increases, demand by fans allows prices to increase and big free agents to be more valuable. The real way to lower prices would probably be an end to MLB's monopoly and the growth of competing baseball leagues.
2007-11-14 20:15:54
205.   scareduck
Jon, it tickles me to see that you're also a Lyle Lovett fan. What a great song.
2007-11-14 20:17:57
206.   El Lay Dave
202 Maybe the other way around? I imagine that Boras sells himself to his clients as the guy that can get them the most money - that is the perception of him already anyway - and that they should hire another agent, like you would be, if those other things you mentioned are high priorities. Takes all kinds.
2007-11-14 20:18:48
207.   underdog
194 Have you, in fact, any cheese here at all?

No, I was deliberately wasting your time.

203 Isn't Drew Carey all three of those things?

2007-11-14 20:25:43
208.   Jon Weisman
205 - Not even my first Lyle headline

2007-11-14 20:25:43
209.   Sam DC
That's Incredible!
2007-11-14 20:26:12
210.   El Lay Dave
203 Kelly Ripa is 37. Still a "piece" in your eyes? (My eyes are nearly 47, so she is in mine.) And a brilliant stroke to cast her into a "role" previously held by a "C/Kathie(y) Lee".
2007-11-14 20:27:56
211.   Daniel Zappala
Memo to ToyCannon: I'm now listening to Joel Myers, here in God's Country, since the NBA offers free audio for games this season. This is part of my penance.
2007-11-14 20:29:51
212.   Gen3Blue
203 By coincedence, Boomer should be available. His current assignment is about done, as Don Imus will reenter the market on or about Dec. 2nd.
2007-11-14 20:30:13
213.   Greg Brock
210 37 is wheelhouse.
2007-11-14 20:34:25
214.   Terry A
Is Kelly Ripa a cougar?
2007-11-14 20:43:55
215.   Greg Brock
214 She doesn't seem like the type to hang around bars to capture a fresh kill.

Teri Hatcher, on the other hand, strikes me as cougarific.

2007-11-14 20:44:35
216.   Marty
I recently explained the term "cougar " to a female friend of mine. She was appalled and asked where I'd heard that. I said Dodger Thoughts!

She said, you need a life.

2007-11-14 20:46:05
217.   underdog
The Lakers were barely hanging on for dear life but now up by five with 23 seconds left after Bynum nailed two free throws. There's something annoying about having to watch a Rockets game with former Rockets' coach Jeff Van Gundy as the analyst.
2007-11-14 20:47:15
218.   underdog
I'm not a big fan of using the term 'cougar,' either, though I know you guys are using it with some of your tongue planted in your cheek. It seems a bit demeaning.

Now, "Lynx," there's a term I could get behind!

2007-11-14 20:48:23
219.   underdog
Like, "That minx is a real lynx! watch out!"

Hah? Hah? {sound of crickets chirping}

2007-11-14 20:50:09
220.   Greg Brock
219 Hey man, they're real, and they are out there.

Waiting...Ready to strike.

2007-11-14 20:51:14
221.   Eric Stephen
217 At least it's not Joel Myers.

I actually like Jeff Van Gundy a lot. He always adds something to the broadcast, and he seems much more gregarious than he seemed from afar from his coaching days.

On the Rockets last possession, he saw the inbound formation by Houston and said "watch for the direct inbound pass to Yao Ming" and sure enough in came the inbound pass to Yao. Little things like that add a lot to the broadcast.

Also, JVG is self-deprecating. Bonzi Wells has been discussed a lot during the game for his good performance thus far in 2007-08, and Van Gundy said something to the effect of "who is the idiot coach who didn't play him last year?", when of course it was him.

I'll listen to Jeff Van Gundy any day.

2007-11-14 20:56:32
222.   El Lay Dave
220 Puts a little different meaning to the Cougar roar commercial tagline of old.

Count the cougars! SFW.

2007-11-14 20:56:52
223.   underdog
221 No, in fairness, overall from what I heard he was really good (and I did catch that self-deprecating moment); I think I just got a little tired of his repeating himself endlessly about the Lakers and what they're doing or not doing. He just sounded a lot like someone who knows a lot about the Rockets, which he does. But yeah, in perspective, he's better than most.

220 Do they say, "Darling, come to mother. I'm the little feller's mother, and I've been so worried about him. Ee-eeeee!" ?

2007-11-14 21:05:39
224.   Greg Brock
222 That commercial elicited a hearty larf. Awesome.

Grandpa Brock drove a Merc Coug. Which he gave to my frugal father when it was on it's deathbed. Needless to say, I walked to school.

2007-11-14 21:10:12
225.   Greg Brock
224 its, not it's.
2007-11-14 21:15:51
226.   Gen3Blue
I'm almost sorry I don't have the breadth to get into a B-ball chat, and maybe not even a cougar vs. lynx riff. But I am sure we will all be amazed by the Boras counter-attack that we will see tomorrow!
2007-11-14 21:21:24
227.   Brent Knapp
202 Isn't an agent's responsibility to get his player what the player wants? Some players may want to chase the last dollar, and same care about other factors (i.e. competitiveness, location). Boras is just the best agent at acquiring that last dollar.

As far as cheeses go, try Dubliner cheddar sometime. Phenomenal.

2007-11-14 21:34:30
228.   Sam DC
Well, I've been not watching Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, which featured a question on the film High Fidelty (what rocker played himself). The guy won $250K.

The $500K question he did not answer (paraphrased): Which child actress went on to author an academic paper on magnetic fields.

2007-11-14 21:36:33
229.   natepurcell
Yes! Dodgers ZIPs projctions are out. Real baseball talk can come back now!
2007-11-14 21:45:04
230.   Greg Brock
229 Sort of conservative estimates, I think.
2007-11-14 21:48:08
231.   KG16
228 - it would be useful to have DTers as a life line.

195 - yeah, I'm not surprised by Ms. Duke's intelligence, given her pedigree. There are so many things about the internet gaming ban that annoy me, I'm fairly certain I'd be violating rules 1, 5, and 6... and probably a couple of unwritten rules. But, suffice it to say: Congresscritters should be laughed at more often.

2007-11-14 21:48:19
232.   bigcpa
229 Kershaw 7.69 ERA?! This will not help us land Miguel Cabrera people.
2007-11-14 21:48:58
233.   natepurcell

Not as Conservative as CHONE though.

ZIPS really undershot their projections last year of Billingsley, Loney, Kemp and Martin.

Andy Laroche 2007 projection:

Laroche 2008 projection:


2007-11-14 21:52:06
234.   blue22
Who is John Lindsey? .253 .322 .438
2007-11-14 21:53:26
235.   blue22
I'm not sure I see Kemp being a .300 hitter over 162 games.
2007-11-14 21:54:25
236.   Bob Timmermann
John Lindsey is a career minor leaguer:

2007-11-14 21:54:51
237.   natepurcell
Alert! Alert! Dan Zymborski believes that Loney will beat his projection!


2007-11-14 21:55:43
238.   Eric Stephen
234 30-year old NRI last spring. More info here:

2007-11-14 21:55:49
239.   blue22
236 - Yeah, I just google'd him. I had no idea he was the 1B for the 51s. Can't say I'd ever heard his name before.
2007-11-14 21:56:24
240.   natepurcell

He's a career .310 minor league hitter and hasn't hit below .300 in the minors since hitting .288 in Low A in 2004.

2007-11-14 22:01:38
241.   blue22
240 - His BABIP was .411 last year, en route to his .343 BA. What happens when that drops 100 points?

Not big fans of Delwyn: .255/.295/.408

2007-11-14 22:04:29
242.   natepurcell

Of course, this is assuming that his K-rate won't improve and he will lose his speed.

I see his K-rate improving and Kemp still maintaining his speed. A BABIP of .411 is high, but Kemp is the type of player that will probably have a higher than league average BABIP through his prime years.

2007-11-14 22:20:35
243.   Eric Stephen
Looking over the ZiPS projections, the lineup of Furcal, Pierre, Kemp, Loney, Martin, Kent, Ethier, LaRoche, plus Nomar project for a total of 115 HR in 2008.

The 2007 top 9 (BB-Ref starting 9 plus Kemp) combined for 105 HR. That does not include Betemit, and the team had 129 total HR.

I'd like to think the current starting 8 can hit more than 115 HR. Call it overly optimistic or blue-colored glasses, but I think it can be done.

2007-11-14 22:24:22
244.   dzzrtRatt
This is, qualitatively, a lot less than the Marlins want from the Dodgers. From

In return, the Marlins are seeking a package of players that definitely would include second baseman Howie Kendrick. Other names that have been discussed are pitching prospect Nick Adenhart, along with either Brandon Wood or Maicer Izturis, both of whom play third base.

Kendrick, Adenhart and if the Angels can get away with Izturis and not Wood aren't worth Kemp alone, much less Cabrera, if Cabrera is worth Kemp and/or Loney + Billingsley + LaRoche + Kershaw.

Maybe getting Cabrera out of the NL is weighed in the balance.

2007-11-14 22:26:50
245.   scareduck
168 - baseball was considered imperialist, and because the Japanese played it, doubly cursed.

216 - you should have said

Apparently there's an entire set of definitions for some other members of the cat family:


2007-11-14 22:27:35
246.   Greg Brock
244 I simply do not believe that Kendrick, Adenhart and Izturis could get Cabrera, while LaRoche, McDonald and Abreu/Young could not.
2007-11-14 22:42:31
247.   natepurcell
Sooo, over or under on Billz projected era of 4.0?
2007-11-14 22:45:05
248.   Greg Brock
247 I'll go sub-3.50.

I'll say 3.39

2007-11-14 22:45:44
249.   Eric Stephen
247 Put me down for under. Dolphins Stadium is a great pitchers park.

Gotcha! :)

2007-11-14 22:46:50
250.   dzzrtRatt
246 Me neither.

All I know is what I read in the papers, er, internet. This was an article on the Marlins' page of

Maybe scareduck knows these Angels are much more fabulous than I'm thinking.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-11-14 22:49:12
251.   Sam DC
If Alex Rodriguez signs a 280 million dollar contract, you're going to have to work real hard to convince me that he is eating crow, or that he or Boras grossly misread the market.
2007-11-14 22:56:54
252.   Greg Brock
250 Kendrick may be a better pure hitter than LaRoche, but he doesn't have the same power, and he doesn't walk. Adenhart or McDonald is a wash to me, though Adenhart is certainly more highly touted.

The killer is Izturis. He's a nothing. A big pile of nothing.

2007-11-14 23:03:03
253.   CanuckDodger
So according to ZIPS, Martin, Loney, Kemp, Abreu, Billingsley, and Broxton are all going to be worse in 2008 than they were in 2007. Highly improbable.
2007-11-14 23:10:16
254.   Greg Brock
253 Those projections are sort of out there. 18 homers over a full season for Kemp? LaRoche regressing, despite being fully healthy and mashing in August, and mashing in the WC?

And the Billingsley projections are pretty conservative. I expect Billingsley to absolutely break out next year.

2007-11-14 23:36:29
255.   Eric Stephen
If Pierre is moved to LF, and Colletti decides to sign a CF, does Andruw accept a Ned special 3-year deal? Would it take 3/$60m to get that done?

I would imagine Hunter is looking for a longer deal, mainly because he's almost 2 full years older than Andruw.

2007-11-14 23:39:08
256.   Bob Timmermann
The floor wishes to bring to the attention of the chair that the MLBPA has made sure that Mr. Boras will be allowed to help Mr. Rodriguez in his negotiations with the Brothers Steinbrenner.

2007-11-14 23:43:10
257.   jasonungar07
246 You guys know way, way, way more than me about prospects but giddy up if I am either team for those players right?

For some reason I am not an Abreau fan in that loosing him to me would be no big deal. Maybe I undervalue him. He didn't really impress me at all

I think Young can mash. The ball seems to jump off his bat. His outs are hard.

I like LaRoche and think he will be really solid. When he lays off some of those outside sliders and just gets comfortable I can see him being a solid run producer.

This is only based on my eyes and watching them last year. Not numbers..

254 I totally agree. I think he has it all and will dominate next year and be our ace. 17-19 wins 200k 3.10era

2007-11-14 23:43:50
258.   underdog
245 Speaking of which (Sort of), I just installed Leopard on my PowerBook. Love it! Especially after downloading the new patches to make sure it doesn't cough up a giant hairball on me.


I don't mean this to be insulting, but why are ZIPS projections that important? Seems as if they're wrong a lot. Or is it just one of those things that are fun to track...?

2007-11-14 23:46:11
259.   silverwidow
Josh Bell has some crazy bat speed:

2007-11-14 23:47:15
260.   ucladodger

Not to mention they project Loney to hit 15 home runs. He hit 15 last year in 350 at bats, but they say he'll hit one more with 300 additional AB's? I dont really get that one at at. Same thing with Kemp. If he gets 600+ at bats he hits way more than 18 homers.

2007-11-14 23:50:45
261.   Eric Stephen
260 To be fair, including AAA time, hit 16 total HR in 636 PA, so maybe the 15 HR projection isn't far off.
2007-11-14 23:52:24
262.   jasonungar07
255 That may be a win-win. 33 for next contract...good call. I left McDonald out of last post cause I have no idea. Obviously I read stuff but

talk about bat speed..D. Young!!

2007-11-14 23:55:50
263.   Eric Stephen
259 Gotta love minor league baseball. Inland Empire players were wearing red uniforms, and the opposing Lake Elsinore Storm were
2007-11-15 00:03:21
264.   Greg Brock
By the way, a couple guys that I'm working with on a new baseball blog predicted that A-Rod would be a Yankee next year, even after the World Series opt-out nonsense. Just throwing that out there.


2007-11-15 00:08:04
265.   Eric Stephen
264 Have you come up with a title for the future award-winning blog yet?

I suggest "Brock & Jocks", if only to title your World Series recap "Brock & Jocks™ Talks Sox-Rox"

2007-11-15 00:11:45
266.   Eric Stephen
256 The chair recognizes Mr. Timmermann, and also submits the following:

2007-11-15 00:15:35
267.   Dodgers49
Weeks Later, Rodriguez Comes to His Senses

>> Boras did not return telephone calls seeking comment on the surprising development. But unless Rodriguez, in conspiracy with Boras, has initiated a scheme to wrangle millions from the Yankees, he is repudiating Boras by letting the team know he would negotiate a contract without him. <<

## Maybe Boras, admitting a huge mistake, is engineering the entire situation, telling Rodriguez to appear to shed him and approach the Yankees alone because they are his best bet for the many millions he seeks. Contributing to that suspicion was Boras's reported presence yesterday in Miami, where Rodriguez lives. ##

%% But Yankees officials, knowing the rules, said yesterday they would negotiate with anyone Rodriguez chose. Randy Levine, the Yankees' president, was once the owners' chief labor negotiator and knows a club cannot bar a player from using the representative of his choice. %%

2007-11-15 00:16:59
268.   Greg Brock
265 The blog is already out there. I'm just not going to pimp it. My friends and I agree that if it's good, people will find it. We're not going to publicize it.

The first post is a "Hi, we're here" post. The next one is an interview with a minor league player, who describes what it's like to be drafted, and what it's like to play in the minors.

Bonus: He pitched against the Jacksonville Five. And beaned Russell Martin.

2007-11-15 00:19:37
269.   Eric Stephen
268 Much like a good chef letting word of mouth promote his restaurant. Nice.
2007-11-15 00:45:08
270.   the2pin
Changing the inquiry slightly: whether you agree with signing A-Rod ($) or Cabrera (prospects), at least you know you're getting back a certifiable All-Star in return.

If Coletti loses out on both players - which seems more likely by the instant - what does he do? Is there any way he stands pat?

Keeping in mind the nature of a GM's job and the fact Coletti has publicly been after both A-Rod and Cabrera on some level, how do you think he'll respond?

2007-11-15 00:51:53
271.   Greg Brock
270 Why can't Andy LaRoche play third? He's the second best 3b prospect in baseball (behind Longoria), he's cheap, and he's universally lauded. And he is absolutely mashing during the World Cup.

The Red Sox want LaRoche. The baseball community fawns all over him. Why isn't he good enough for the Dodgers?

2007-11-15 01:00:06
272.   bhsportsguy
268 Okay, give a hint, a name, something, I can search and find with the best of them but I need just a little help.
2007-11-15 01:10:55
273.   Greg Brock
272 Trust me, it's not even worth looking at right now. We're still trying to figure out a good format, and a division of labor.

But I promise some good stuff.

2007-11-15 01:14:45
274.   the2pin
271 You've changed the subject.

Keep the prospects, I agree. But the game isn't "make the best team for the money". That's Billy Beane's job. The game is "build a winner" and do it year after year.

I recognize that the young players are going to be the key to continued excellence. I also think some of our prospects are excellent. I think Billingsley is going to be an ace. I think Kemp has all the tools.

But I also recognize that James Loney is Shea Hillenbrand and that the kids can only take the Dodgers so far. The obsequious fawning over prospects on this blog leaves me cold. Many of them wont pan out. Period.

I'm about winning in a city that hasn't won in 20 years. You really think Andy LaRoche and Nomar are going to get you there?

As ridiculous as it sounds, the Angels are fast becoming L.A.'s team. I'm hoping Coletti spends the money instead of trading young talent. Either way, it's time to make a move.

2007-11-15 01:19:24
275.   Greg Brock
272 You know one of my sources. We've talked about it on the phone. He lived with former Dodger uber-prospect [name redacted], and he played along side prospects [name redacted] and [name redacted]. And he took the hill against Loney, Martin, and Guzman.
2007-11-15 01:27:53
276.   bhsportsguy
275 Yeah, I know, okay, I will wait, and text me re Bruin basketball, the only good thing going on in LA right now.

I think Trainwreck is out toasting the recruiting class.

2007-11-15 01:35:54
277.   dzzrtRatt
271 Colletti is all about playing the game the right way. LaRoche apparently plays it the wrong way. You turn over his bubble gum card and what's there? A bunch of numbers. Feh.

I hope Kim Ng writes her memoirs. I'd love to know what kind of conversations go on up there. Does the universal criticism of Pierre and the universal excitement about guys like LaRoche make Colletti upset? Does he feel misunderstood and alone? In the wee small hours of the morning, does he cry out, "Pierre is a great on-base guy, I don't care what anybody says?" Or is he cocksure in his beliefs? "Anyone who thinks Matt Kemp is a good player is just a complete idiot! I have no time for such morons." Or, is he just scared?

"There's nothing I'm afraid of like scared people" -- Robert Frost.

2007-11-15 01:44:08
278.   CanuckDodger
274 -- You "recognize that James Loney is Shea Hillenbrand?" Oh good God.
2007-11-15 05:23:55
279.   D4P
The Yankees aren't excluding Boras: they're just saying that they won't negotiate with him. The way I see it, it's impossible for a team to violate the rule that a player must have his agent or no agent in the negotiations. A team isn't gonna kidnap a player and force him to sign a contract without his agent.

It's up to ARod to decide whether he wants to negotiate without Boras or talk to another team. His comments made it pretty clear that he thinks the Yankees will pay him more than any other team, even if Boras isn't "in the room".

If ARod wants to talk to the Yankees sans Boras, he's acting within his rights, and in accordance with applicable rules.

2007-11-15 05:38:11
280.   D4P
"I really don't spend much time interacting with other people."

2007-11-15 05:38:58
281.   scareduck
272 et al. - give us the name, please.
2007-11-15 05:53:11
282.   D4P
Boras Thoughts:

1. If revenue is static, then there's really no problem with increasing the percentage of the revenue that goes to the players. Either the owners keep it or the players get some of it. Might as well give it to the players.

2. But revenue isn't static. Revenue is apparently going up, as are salaries. At some level, the fan is ultimately paying for a chunk of this through increasing ticket prices, concession prices, etc. Why should we be indifferent about this? It's not as simple as "Give the players their fair share". They're all getting richer, due in large part to us getting poorer (by giving them our money).

3. As I've said before, Boras doesn't do anything impressive. He says he and his players want a lot of money, and doesn't give in until a team gives him the money he wants. It's not rocket science. This method works in large part because he has a stable of very good players. Anyone could utilize this method if they had good players and were so inclined. The media, fans, GMs, etc. act like Boras is some kind of god. It's annoying.

2007-11-15 06:40:23
283.   Ken Noe
Morning hot stove fun: Kemp, Broxton, and Kershaw to the O's for Erik Bedard. If not to the Fish for Miggy.,0,4916561.story?track=rss

2007-11-15 07:11:10
284.   D4P
A thought for our new opinionated conspiracy buff:

What if ARod is in such a hurry to sign a contract because he knows his name will be in the Mitchell Report...?

2007-11-15 07:14:42
285.   ToyCannon
So basically you won't pimp while you just have Jodie Foster but when you move up to Elisabeth Shue you'll start pimping?
2007-11-15 07:17:15
286.   RIYank
284 Yeah, I thought of that.
Probably lots of teams and agents are having related thoughts these days. Except the Red Sox?
2007-11-15 07:18:14
287.   ToyCannon
Your very consistent about Boras and the undefeated NE Patriots.
2007-11-15 07:21:11
288.   D4P
Thanks. Now I just have to work on my concetration.
2007-11-15 07:23:44
289.   ToyCannon
Why would he care? He just had the 2nd greatest season for a 31 year old 3rd baseman in baseball history after testing was instituted.

The only players who need to care are those players who are named and have seen a drop in performance since testing was instituted.

2007-11-15 07:23:57
290.   Bob Timmermann
D4P stays on message. He's a campaign manager's dream.
2007-11-15 07:28:34
291.   D4P
The only players who need to care are those players who are named and have seen a drop in performance since testing was instituted

Like Andruw Jones, for example.

2007-11-15 07:32:24
292.   D4P
I try to stay the course, without flip-flopping.
2007-11-15 07:36:41
293.   ToyCannon
Not a very good example since he hit the 2nd most home runs in his career in the 1st year of testing. I think you'd have to be looking at players who have had a two year regression. A Jones was all about injuries. The cortisone shots weren't because he was feeling weak.
2007-11-15 07:40:10
294.   MC Safety
Nice link Ken. So I guess the ball is in our court. So far we can choose between Bedard or Cabrera. Knowing our luck with pitchers and Bedard just coming off in injury ( elbow? ) I think I would rather get Cabrera and throw a huge extension at him.
2007-11-15 07:41:47
295.   Sam DC
279 I haven't followed all the statements of all the parties, but if the Yankees are saying "we won't negotiate with Scott Boras" how can that not violate A-Rod's CBA right to be represented by the agent of his choice? Sure, he can agree to the Yankees terms and talk to them without an agent, but would the CBA really allow a team to have a policy that says we will negotiate with player agents, only the player themselves?

If that were allowed Stan Kasten would already have implemented it.

2007-11-15 07:43:23
296.   Sam DC
And I see the mountain is still smoking . . . .

I am going to huddle in my hut with my loved ones.

2007-11-15 07:48:13
297.   Bob Timmermann
From Article IV of the CBA and the previous thread:

If the Association has notified the Office of the Commissioner that a
Player has designated a certified Player Agent or Agents to act on his
behalf for the purposes described in this Article IV, no Club may negotiate
or attempt to negotiate an individual salary and/or Special
Covenants to be included in a Uniform Player's Contract with any
Player Agent(s) other than such Player Agent(s).
A Club may require a Player's physical presence only once during contract
negotiations. This limitation shall not apply to telephone conference
calls, at reasonable times, with a Player and his certified Player
Agent. A Player required to be physically present during negotiations
shall be entitled to be paid by the Club for round-trip first-class transportation
and first-class hotel costs.

An attorney friend of mine (I have a lot of them) got on my case for failing to understand just what in reality Rodriguez could sue for and reminded me also that for any collusion charges or unfair negotiating charge, the burden of proof is the side making the claim.

I apparently didn't understand the meaning of "tortuous interference" or something like that.

2007-11-15 07:52:50
298.   Ken Noe
294 I'm sticking with my conspiracy theory until proven otherwise: Kemp for pitching, Hunter in center, JP to left, and one more inexplicable chance at third for Nomar until LaRoche takes command. It's pure Colletti.
2007-11-15 07:54:28
299.   D4P
no Club may negotiate or attempt to negotiate an individual salary and/or Special Covenants to be included in a Uniform Player's Contract with any Player Agent(s) other than such Player Agent(s).

Again, the Yankees are not violating this. They're not attempting to negotiate with an agent other than Scott Boras.

The language doesn't say a team has to negotiate with the player's agent, it just says that they can't negotiate with an agent that is not the player's agent.

2007-11-15 07:58:01
300.   D4P
Unless there's other language that says something like

"No negotiations can take place unless a player's agent is present", then I don't think the Yankees are violating anything.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-11-15 07:58:33
301.   Bluebleeder87
Top 'o the morning folks! :o)
2007-11-15 08:01:39
302.   ToyCannon
Bedard has pitched 378 innings over the last two years. At the end of this year according to rotowire "Bedard underwent an MRI Tuesday that ruled out any further damage other than a strained right oblique muscle, the Associated Press reports."

If Joe Torre is involved I'm sure he's pushing very hard for us to get Bedard. He saw enough of him to know how special he is. I'm still staying with the thought that hiring Joe Torre is the worse thing this team could do if you want to be rooting for a home grown based team over the next 3 years. I doubt very much we will ever see Kershaw wear a Dodger jersey.

2007-11-15 08:07:02
303.   regfairfield
274 You couldn't even give Loney Sean Casey? Harsh.

I can see why projection systems would be down on Loney. His terrible half a season in AAA would mean he's due for a huge regression to the mean, plus it can't be a fan of his nine home runs in 599 career at bats in Vegas. I honestly don't know how to predict his year. He's obviously a great line drive hitter, but I have no idea how real his power is. Instinctually, I'll say .315/.370/.460 with the caveat that I could be very, very wrong.

2007-11-15 08:08:28
304.   Sam DC
299 , 300 The issue as I see it -- and I am no labor lawyer and it is a very specialized area of law with a long, long history -- is that the Yankees are saying, if Alex Rodriguez wants to negotiate with them, he may not have the agent he wants. Sure, he can get a different agent. Or he can negotiate without an agent.

It would surprise me a lot of that type of interference with a player's right to choose an agent was permitted by the CBA. (And there may be another portion of the CBA than this that says the player has a right to be represented by an agent of his choice which could be the peg.)

Anyhow, I'm way out of my depth here.

2007-11-15 08:16:00
305.   ToyCannon
Are you waiting for Jeff Kent to announce he's coming back before doing the analysis you promised us?
2007-11-15 08:16:06
306.   Ken Noe
302 Torre is most certainly involved. Read this on Yahoo:

"We had a conference call today talking about our players and stuff. The last couple weeks have been a quick learn for me, but I'm enthusiastic -- just the fact that there are a lot of young players with a lot of talent it seems. So I'm anxious to get to spring training," [Torre] said.

Torre said Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti is exploring ways to upgrade.

"You've got to help your offense some way, but we're looking to help our club in a few different areas, whether it be through free agency or trade. I think that's what we're discussing right now," Torre said.

2007-11-15 08:17:44
307.   MC Safety
302- Joe also said we needed to upgrade offensively as well.
2007-11-15 08:19:29
308.   regfairfield
305 I got distracted by my "get Corey Hart" plan along with the new ZIPS projections.
2007-11-15 08:20:43
309.   Sam DC
OK -- the first sentence of the Article IV of the Basic Agreement says:

"A Player, if he so desires, may designate an agent to conduct on his behalf, or to assist him in, the negotiation of [contract terms] to be included in his in his Uniform Players Contract with any Club . . ."

I believe an arbitrator would find it a violation of this sentence of the CBA for a club to refuse to negotiate with an agent selected by a player. Obviously, there is a gray zone if all the Yankees have done is say something like "we want to his this stratight from A-Rod" as part of starting negotiations or something. But I don not believe a club can (i) refuse to negotiate with players who employ agents or (ii) refuse to negotiate with a particular agent selected by a player, even though they will negotiate directly with the player or another agent.

Management in different industries has long tried to go around unions and negotiate directly with individual workers and that has been considered a violation of the right to unionize; the Yankees' reported statements here would raise very similar issues.

2007-11-15 08:23:23
310.   MC Safety
If Matt Kemp gets traded I will be devastated. I can deal with Laroche, Loney or Kershaw, but please no Martin, Kemp or Bills.
2007-11-15 08:35:48
311.   MC Safety
Is anyone finding the amount of flip flopping amongst Yankee fans over AROD hilarious? Remember the level of hatred during the World Series after he opted out? This ultra-what have you done for me lately/love/hate realationship is extremely comical to me.
2007-11-15 08:40:05
312.   Daniel Zappala
310 I'd be upset about LaRoche and Kershaw in addition to Kemp. Maybe Loney or Ethier, but there better be a plan in place to improve at those positions if they are moved.
2007-11-15 08:40:07
313.   ToyCannon
Joe Sheehan just compiled a list of low cost FA that he feels will be the best deals. I think two of them would be great fits with the Dodgers. I've been touting Jon Leiber as a better option then Randy Wolf and with the Joe Torre connection maybe that will work out. He also likes Lamb who I thought would be a great backup 1st/3rd/Pinch Hitter instead of Sweeney.
2007-11-15 08:41:32
314.   Daniel Zappala
Note, according to Jon Heyman, Boras is indeed involved in the negotiations. I read the story earlier, but it's also in the latest Bronx Banter post.
2007-11-15 08:45:30
315.   ToyCannon
Not really. Makes sense to me. In one fell swoop he changed them from an also-ran to a team the Sox need to fear again because now they can keep all the pitching.
Since he re-started the negotiations he solved all the problems. He took Brian Cashman off the hook. All in all I thought it was brilliant. As Dzzratt said, this kind of move will make him a real Yankee and now he will be the face of the new stadium. It was one of the smartest moves I've ever seen orchestrated by a player.
2007-11-15 09:04:10
316.   GoBears
Just heard Buster Olney on ESPNews, predicting that an ARod return to the Yankees is nigh. He then went on to blame this whole ordeal on Boras and ARod, and claimed that ARod will never overcome the "huge hit he took" for selfishly announcing his opt-out during the World Series.

Geez, Olney annoys me. He starts the "How Dare ARod opt out and rain on Boston's parade" talk single-handedly, and then observes that ARod took a hit in the media. He's like a spurned lover who lashed out at the time of the opt-out, and now that they're getting back together, he has to stick to his story that it was "done the wrong way" to save face.

It's not just Olney. The media loves to whip up firestorms and then spend weeks reporting that there's a firestorm.

OK, I gotta finish my coffee. I'm just bitter that ARod won't be coming to LA, and that the danger of a dumb trade just went way up.

2007-11-15 09:09:42
317.   jasonungar07
Seriously nothing Coletti has ever done makes me think there is or ever will be a plan.
2007-11-15 09:11:00
318.   MC Safety
315-I understand what AROD accomplished. I was referring more to flip flopping between fans and media reaction. Most comments from various blogs I saw absolutely hated him. Now its all about asking why you wouldnt want to replace his production,and before the majority of the comments were negative of the good riddance variety that focused on his character issues. The justification of those fans now wanting him back just gave me a little chuckle.

Its all about the production in the end I guess. A team with a bunch of Juan Pierre's would be no fun. Wait a team with one Juan Pierre is no fun either. You gotta have a few bad guys on your team. Maybe Kemp wont get traded. Dont worry im talking to myself.

2007-11-15 09:16:05
319.   Sam DC
316 I heard the Mike and Mike guys harping on the same thing about Boras' aura is now destroyed.

I guess. Still a lot of facts we don't know. But per my 251 above, I'm just gonna have very little patience for endless harping on how badly Boras misread the market if his client signs the largest contract in baseball history after opting out of a deal that one year ago almost no one would have believed he opted out of.

Is the yardstick really going to be that, if A-Rod doesn't get the most exorbitant number ever floated by his agent, he got snookered?

2007-11-15 09:22:55
320.   Daniel Zappala
the danger of a dumb trade just went way up

Or the danger of a dumb trade just went way down. With fewer 3B on the market, the Marlins may stick to their high demands, making a trade less likely.

I will also refuse to be a pessimist when so far the Dodgers still have their top prospects and young players.

2007-11-15 09:23:29
321.   Bob Timmermann
The man is getting a raise AND a longer contract if the stories about Rodriguez signing with the Yankees pan out.

I wish I could be that successful at negotiation. I had a hard time getting an extra cookie at home after getting straight As.

2007-11-15 09:28:31
322.   wireroom
I am tired of hearing about AROD and Scott Boras. Let the Yankees have AROD and his bland brand of baseball. I am glad he didn't sign with the Dodgers. I would have a hard time rooting for that guy. It would be like rooting for George Bush or something, at least for me. AROD is the furthest thing from baseball and what it is about for me. I hope the Dodgers just go with the team they have now and maybe try to find some more pitching.
2007-11-15 09:28:32
323.   Daniel Zappala
321 You went to the wrong grade school. We got tickets to Angels games for straight A's.
2007-11-15 09:29:52
324.   regfairfield
I really don't mind a dumb trade when the result is Miguel Cabrera. Yeah, moving four guys would put a huge hurting on us, but at least we'd get something shiny in return instead of Hendrickson, Baez, or Proctor.

Better Miguel Cabrera than Kyle Kendrick.

2007-11-15 09:32:37
325.   the2pin
The danger of a dumb trade just went way up. Correct.

The Dodgers have had one of the best farm system in baseball during the past 20 years. What has that produced, really? I can imagine the primrose pseudo-analysts on this blog labeling Todd Hollandsworth "untouchable" in 1996.

The dodgers have zero star power. The faster perennial All-Star caliber players leave the market - A-Rod may be gone, Peavy may be close to extending - the more likely Coletti does something foolish and reactive, like signing Lowell or Rowand to a ridiculous and destructive contract.

GMs have to make moves or they will be replaced. Coletti is feeling the pressure.

If Coletti makes a splash, I'd at least like him to snag a no-doubt-about-it talent like Miguel Cabrera rather than hoping Lowell hits like it's a contract year.

2007-11-15 09:37:23
326.   regfairfield
325 I love Hollandsworth, but comparing him to any of our current prospects is foolish.

Holly's minor league numbers:
Age 19: A+ 430 AB .258/.335/.426 113 K
Age 20: AA 474 AB .251/.294/.447 101 K
Age 21: AAA 505 AB .285/.345/.479 96 K

Anyone who calls that untoucable would probably have brain damage. None of our high tier prospects are anywhere close to as bad as those numbers.

2007-11-15 09:37:31
327.   old dodger fan
Lowell is talking with the Yankees. They want him to play 1B.
2007-11-15 09:37:53
328.   Jon Weisman
325 - The notion that the Dodgers have relied upon the farm system more than they have relied upon bold free-agent signings and trades over the past 20 years is false.

GMs have to win or they will be replaced. That can come from making moves or not making moves.

Regardless of what people would have said about Todd Hollandsworth in 1996, the idea that his flaws means that the Dodgers should have a cavalier attitude toward the current group of young players is absurd.

Very few people here are against the notion of adding Cabrera. But I think it's fair to say there's a limit to what should be given away to get him.

2007-11-15 09:39:55
329.   wireroom
Is there ever the thought that maybe a GM can save his job by not making any moves and letting his team develop? Those mid 90's Dodger teams were pretty good in my opinion with all of that home grown talent that developed. Cabrera is a proven commodity, but I think Kemp and Loney and Bills are as well.
2007-11-15 09:42:55
330.   Bob Timmermann
The Mid 90s Dodgers teams also had guys like Todd Zeile. And Delino Deshields. And Tim Wallach. And Roberto Kelly. And Brett Butler. And Tom Candiotti. And Kevin Tapani. And Hideo Nomo. And Todd Worrell.
2007-11-15 09:45:48
331.   the2pin
328. Fair. We are not in fundamental disagreement.

I don't want to give up the farm -- but I do insist that something be done. I don't accept the notion that the Dodgers become a contender by standing pat.

Nor do I accept the odd inertia among Dodger fans, particularly some on this blog; the vague, destructive acceptance of low expectations.

Who is a guaranteed All-Star on the Dodgers right now? Honestly.

I refuse to believe that Esteban Loaiza, Bret Tomko and the hope that our prospects become excellent professionals is the best we can do.

2007-11-15 09:48:02
332.   MC Safety
325- Primrose psuedo analysts? You come off as being bitter for some reason.
2007-11-15 09:48:25
333.   old dodger fan
330 And Piazza, Karros, Offerman, Mondesi and Chan Ho.
2007-11-15 09:49:50
334.   wireroom
I have waited ten years and every year I have made comments to friends and family that I would rather watch a mediocre young Dodger team develop than some bought team or traded for team. But every year the Dodgers try and go big and I end watching guys like Jeff Kent and Gonzo or Kevin Brown. Memo to Kent, "you make a ton of money playing baseball, you can afford to smile or have a laugh, jerk." Maybe finally I can watch the baseball team that I have wanted to watch for years this year.
2007-11-15 09:51:11
335.   Ken Noe
328 330 Amen and amen. The Dodgers have been out of the NL championship running for two decades precisely because GMs starting with Fred Claire consistently mortgaged the future for some shiny Strawberry or Davis of the moment. Win now--except they didn't. Only with White and Evans did that start to turn around, and the result is the wealth of young talent the team now has. My only concern now is that the GM will want to be the new, new sheriff in town.

Bob, remind me to tell you someday about my career as a librarian, complete with MLS. It climaxed that day I went over the circulation desk after a patron.

2007-11-15 09:51:43
336.   wireroom
330 yeah and I liked Candiotti, Butler and Nomo because they were smart signings along with Piazza, Karros, Hollandsworth, MOndesi, etc.
2007-11-15 09:53:36
337.   Daniel Zappala
331 To be fair, I can't recall anyone here saying they have low expectations. Very few have said that they believe the Dodgers should do nothing. I personally think the Dodgers should try to sign Andruw Jones to a reasonable deal, play Kemp in right, Ethier/Young in left, and LaRoche at third.

You are underestimating the impact that improving young players can have on a team. Loney and Kemp will get a full season. LaRoche will upgrade third. Replacing Pierre with a good CF would bring another upgrade. I'm not worried about the offense -- I think just the one small move in CF, combined with the natural progression of young players will produce amazing results.

This is one place where the Dodgers are a lot better off than the Angels. The Angels can expect improvement from Kendrick, and possibly Kotchman, but they have bigger question marks at 3B, an aging LF, no decent DH, a CF who is not that good, and a RF star who is declining soon. If anyone is feeling pressure to move, it's the Angels, while I feel the Dodgers are much safer staying pat and making an upgrade in CF.

2007-11-15 09:55:45
338.   Dark Horse
331-The problem with "not wanting to give up the farm" is that that's exactly what it takes nowadays to acquire the kind of player we'd like in trade. I'd love to have Cabrera. But if we're opening up two or three new holes (with guys who are both cheaper and equally hard to replace) what on earth is the point? Ethier, McDonald, Broxton? I'd let those guys go, if necessary. Kemp, Billingsley, Kershaw? Not so much.
2007-11-15 09:56:50
339.   Daniel Zappala
Common misconceptions about Dodger Thoughts:

1) We all think the same thing.

2) We all want to horde prospects and never sign anyone or trade anyone.

3) We all believe that all our prospects are the best and will become All Stars within one or two years of being called up.

I'm sure there are more.

2007-11-15 09:57:08
340.   MC Safety
Who has low expectations here also? Look what Colorado did. If you ask me Matt Kemp can be our Matt Holiiday. James Loney can be our Todd Helton. Andy Laroche can be as good as Atkins next year. Martin can be our Torrealba. Ethier can be our Hawpe. JP can be our Willy Taveras ( speed is cheap ). And that is not looking at pitching. The Dodgers could have easily been in the Rockies or D Backs shoes had it not been for a few bonehead signings. ( 16 million to Gonzo+ Pierre=shouldnt be a GM. )
2007-11-15 10:01:06
341.   Sam DC
339(1) should be the new Rule 14.
2007-11-15 10:02:31
342.   fanerman
I don't even know what Rule 13 is.
2007-11-15 10:03:15
343.   regfairfield
340 Comparing Russ to Yorvit is a terrible, terrible thing to say.
2007-11-15 10:03:30
344.   MC Safety
340- I would like to add that Pierre can be the benched version of Willy Taveras. Did anyone else notice that they played much better with Matsui and Tulo 1 and 2. IIRC we got good production out of a similar but brief lineup of Furcal and Martin at the top of the order.
2007-11-15 10:03:34
345.   the2pin
Good discussion, guys.

I guess at the deepest level my fear is putting too much stock in our prospects. With respect to 340, Matt Kemp (who I really like) is not "our Matt Holliday".

I agree with 338. "Ethier, McDonald, Broxton? I'd let those guys go, if necessary." I believe it is necessary.

My question for the group:

Realistically, does anyone doubt that Coletti is going to make a move?

If we accept that he is going to make a move, the discussion changes significantly.

2007-11-15 10:03:57
346.   KG16
317 - that's my concern as well.

It's chess and checkers. Colletti does not appear to be the type of strategist who thinks two or three moves ahead. I have this feeling that if Ethier, Loney, or Kemp are traded, there is plan as how to replace them in the starting line up in place.

That's why I'm a little concerned about a trade for Caberra, in filling a "hole" at 3rd, we create one in the starting rotation (or possibly two), in the outfield, and maybe somewhere else. Quite frankly, given the Marlins' high asking price, Caberra just isn't worth it.

2007-11-15 10:05:28
347.   MC Safety
343- You get the picture I was just proving a point. Russ Martin is obviously light years ahead of Torrealba without calculating Martin's lighfootedness.
2007-11-15 10:09:30
348.   StolenMonkey86
Who is a guaranteed All-Star on the Dodgers right now? Honestly.

Two ways to be a guaranteed all-star

1) Be the only good player on the team
2) Be the best at your position and get the starting job every year

#2 looks like it could be Russell Martin. Besides, good players get snubbed all the time from the All-Star game, unless you want to argue the merits of AJ Pierzynski over Travis Hafner last year, for example.

2007-11-15 10:09:34
349.   Penarol1916
345. For whom is it necessary to give up Ethier, McDonald and Broxton? At least be somewhat specific when making your statements.
2007-11-15 10:10:09
350.   MC Safety
345- Kemp reminds me of a 2006 Matt Holliday but faster. I didnt realize Holliday K'd as much as he did as well. Heck they are both named Matt and are both from Oklahoma too.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-11-15 10:10:48
351.   Bluebleeder87
GMs have to win or they will be replaced.

That is the thing that scares me about Ned this year, hopefully he wont do anything to crazy or else I think McCourt will probably fire him on the spot no?

2007-11-15 10:12:32
352.   KG16
345 - I am expecting Coletti to make a move. I don't know what it is going to be, or what the motivation is going to be (personally, I'm leaning towards "doing something for the sake of doing something"). If heads remain cool, and a good deal is made, I have no problem with it, but any deal that gives up two guys with ML experience and a top prospect for one player, is not a good deal.
2007-11-15 10:16:00
353.   the2pin
350 Matt Holliday is the best young hitter in baseball, with the possible exception of Miguel Cabrera. Be serious, lest I mention "primrose" again.

349. Not sure what players get it done, but I would be interested in acquiring Bedard, Haren, Santana or Miguel Cabrera. To me, each of these players is a proven (that is, excellence over more than one season) star. I would be wary of trading Matt Kemp. Billingsley would be off the table. Everyone else is replaceable.

348. Perhaps I was unclear. Who is the marquee player on the Dodgers? It is my contention -- feel free to attack it -- that great teams feature great players.

2007-11-15 10:20:13
354.   StolenMonkey86
350 - Differences:

1) Kemp strikes out a bit more, walks a bit less.

2) Kemp is 5 years younger than Matt Holliday, so 4 years Younger than Holliday's 2006 season.

2007-11-15 10:21:12
355.   Penarol1916
353. Well, you can be sure that those three wouldn't get it done for any of those players and are probably not necessary to lose. Billingsley and Kemp are the two people that most around here are wary of trading, and you attack every commentator on this blog for wanting to protect them. What people are concerned about is how will the Dodgers fill all of the holes created when trading the multiple players for one, you have yet to even remotely address that and you accuse others of being psuedo-analysts.
2007-11-15 10:24:18
356.   KG16
353 - the Dodgers don't really have a marquee player because they have been horrid at promoting their roster the last few years. Look at the commercials they've done: Nomar, Hendrickson, Kent on toast, etc. I suspect that with the right promotion and some national exposure on ESPN/Fox, Martin will become the marquee player, Billingsly could as well, Penny seems to be right on the edge for the last couple of years. But ultimately, creating a marquee player is the job of the front office.
2007-11-15 10:25:43
357.   MC Safety
353- It is obvious you dont have high expectations for Matt Kemp that is fine, I disagree. Is Holliday a bit lofty, maybe, but not ridiculous.
2007-11-15 10:26:40
358.   regfairfield
355 The Dodgers have enough resources that it's entirely possible to fill the holes made in a large trade for Cabrera. For example: Kemp, Kershaw, LaRoche for Cabrera. Cabrera fills LaRoche's spot, Hunter, Rowand or Jones replaces Kemp and then you sign Sabathia, Santana or Sheets the following offseason to replace Kershaw.

It's not nearly as cost effective, and the centerfielder trifecta probably isn't quite as good as Kemp, but you aren't stranded with Delwyn or Stulton getting any useful amount of time.

2007-11-15 10:27:57
359.   fanerman
2007-11-15 10:30:12
360.   Jon Weisman
358 - On that note, new post up top.
2007-11-15 10:30:21
361.   the2pin
355 What I have "attacked," to use your term, are what I believe to be the misguided and ridiculous speculations of a few posters.

Matt Holliday just hit .340 and drove in 137 RBI. He is one of the best hitters in baseball. But to hear (some) bloggers tell it, Matt Kemp is essentially the same player (he does "walk a bit less").

Coletti is going to make a move. Instead of reflectively dismissing the notion of trading, say, Kemp, out of hand, I'd rather discuss what Kemp is worth on the open market.

2007-11-15 10:31:26
362.   CajunDodger
General Comment:

I have been out of it for the past few days, but here are my two cents:

1) 353 Currently our "great" player is Martin, but I feel that the potential is there for Bills and Kemp to be that as well.

2) 339 Excellent

3) I think that Colletti needs to do something for the long term (2-3 years) with the pitching staff. Lowe and Loaiza will be gone in a year, Schmidt is a big fat question mark, and our young pitching will probably need a year or two to adjust to 200 innings in the bigs. If we could somehow get Blanton, Bedard, or Kazmir, well that would just make my day. It would also show that Colletti is indeed thinking ahead.

4) I am also hoping that Ned's reluctance to deal youngsters (or McCourt's reluctance to do so) will hold unless the right deal comes along. I think everyone knows that 4 top talents are too much for any player especially when one has the potential to be better than all but 5-10 pitchers in the NL this year (Bills). Colletti can be brash and impatient, but I don't think that he is that bad. I see Andruw Jones as being more likely than MIggy.

5) Finally, why do we have to give up Bills and Kershaw when they just want Adenhart and positional prospects from the Angels. Why aren't they asking for something like Adenhart, Weaver, Kendrick, and Wood/Rivera? That is equivalent to Bills, Kershaw, Kemp, and LaRoche. This asking us for just ridiculous amounts of talent is getting old.

2007-11-15 10:34:09
363.   Jon Weisman
362) - Point 5.

We don't have any idea what the Marlins are really asking for from either team, or how those requests are being treated.

2007-11-15 10:35:18
364.   Sam DC
Maybe this is too emotional a way of looking at the whole thing, but at this point, having watched the Dodgers' prospects come to the league, I really want the chance to watch them develop together. I just want it. I want to see if Matt Kemp is a star to be or if he is just another trash-can mover. I want to see if James Loney can chase .400 some year.

Looking at how baseball works these days, and the economics of building around young players, and watching the Nationals be unable to trade Soriano or a scorching-hot Dmitri Young or Chad Cordero for top-tier prospects because other teams value those young players so highly, I also think it smart to maximize what you are getting from you own farm and then backill with FA signings.

But it really has become emotional for me. The Dodgers are blessed to have the big core of young players coming to the league at the same time. They have the top pitching prospect in all of baseball! Wow. What fun.

Let's play two!

2007-11-15 10:37:30
365.   the2pin
Hi-Fives Sam to "I Love L.A."
2007-11-15 11:06:03
366.   bhsportsguy
333 Here's the problem with using those players as examples of the Dodger farm system, Piazza becoming what a potential HOF was beyond luck, Karros was a very good get when he was picked as was Hollandsworth, the others were international amateur free agents (you should toss in Ramon and Pedro Martinez, to be fair) but they were the very few exceptions to over a decade of poor drafting.

Piazza - 62nd Round Draft Pick (1988)
Karros - 6th Round Draft Pick (1988)
Hollandsworth - 3rd Round Pick (1991)
Jose Offerman - Amateur Free Agent (1986)
Raul Mondesi - Amateur Free Agent (1988)
Chan Ho Park - Amateur Free Agent (1994)

First Round Picks (1988-2001)
1988 - Bill Bene RHP
1989 - Jamie McAndrew RHP
1990 - Ron Walden P
1991 - No First Round Pick
1992 - Ryan Luzinski C
1993 - Darren Dreifort RHP
1994 - Paul Konerko C
1995 - David Yocum P
1996 - Damian Rolls 3B
1997 - Glenn Davis 1B
1998 - Bubba Crosby OF
1999 - Jason Repko OF
2000 - Ben Diggens P
2001 - No First Round Pick

So it is very understandable why many here want to see this group of players develop on the Dodgers because it has been such a long time to see fruits of the farm at Dodger Stadium.

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