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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Crossing My Tease, Dotting My Eyes
2005-08-07 21:01
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

For those who are coming to the site for the first time by way of Steve Henson and the Times, this is the just joshin' post Henson refers to (where it should be noted that I also celebrate Jim Tracy's batting prowess with the bases empty), but here is the meat of the most recent argument for playing Hee Seop Choi ahead of Jason Phillips at first base.

Well, whether or not you believe in clutch hitting, certainly up to now Phillips has delivered with runners on second and/or third.

But wait a minute. What if you expand beyond runners in scoring position, and just include any situation with runners on base?

Choi: .336 OBP, .394 slugging
Phillips: .310 OBP, .416 slugging

It's just about a wash with runners on. And in the more frequent situation of no runners on base - when you need a baserunner to kick things off?

Choi: .325 OBP, .507 slugging
Phillips: .270 OBP, .344 slugging

And of course, don't forget their stats against right-handed pitchers:

Choi: .365 OBP, .462 slugging
Phillips: .284 OBP, .362 slugging

Meanwhile, here is a more comprehensive entry that touches upon who starts for the Dodgers in general.

But of those six players (with the highest OPS on the current 25-man roster), Tracy has taken to playing only three of them: Kent, Bradley, and Ledee when able. Choi, Perez and Saenz often all sit. The Dodgers have to do better.
Am I ignoring defense? Not that much. Only at third base is there any kind of defensive dropoff between the lineup listed here and the lineup Jim Tracy is making.

This earlier post highlights my understanding of the choice to play Olmedo Saenz ahead of Choi. Not that I agree with it on a full-time basis, but I understand the case.

But as much as I may disagree with Tracy about how much Choi should play, it's not like it's insane or evil to give Saenz at-bats. And it doesn't point to a failing on DePodesta's part that he doesn't order Tracy to do differently.

In any case, good on Henson for putting the case for Choi out there. Certainly, some will continue to dismiss it, but it's nice to see the arguments entertained.

And if you're new to the site - welcome, and don't be shy about saying hello.

Comments (278)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-08-07 21:12:08
1.   Suffering Bruin
Because, dammit, this ain't no joshin' site! We be a seriously brainy-type bunch!

Sorry... been reading a lot of souther literature lately.

2005-08-07 21:12:50
2.   Suffering Bruin
Uh, "southern". That's what happens when you take pride in being first.
2005-08-07 21:20:25
3.   Landonkk
Finally.. mainstream media notices....

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=2125734

Rob Neyer also takes time to point out how rediculous Izzy leading off is.

(Insider required)

2005-08-07 21:38:50
4.   Bob Timmermann
Dodger Thoughts,
Come for the Choi
Stay for the Tracy bashing
2005-08-07 21:41:47
5.   Jon Weisman
Just to be on the safe side, let me reiterate that neither Tracy-praising nor Tracy-bashing is fundamental to this site.
2005-08-07 21:46:55
6.   Bob Timmermann
Well, I was really just looking for the right meter.
2005-08-07 21:52:49
7.   rageon
5 ...although Tracy-bashing may be the fastest way to become popular. And it's certainly more fun.
2005-08-07 21:55:30
8.   capdodger
57 ... It seems to be catching on in the MSM. People like the FJT-mob were just ahead of their time.
2005-08-07 21:55:51
9.   Jon Weisman
6 - Well, then it was worthy.
2005-08-07 21:57:35
10.   Xeifrank
Great exposure for Dodger Thoughts from a kind LA Times reporter. The LA Times definitely need more people like Steve writing about the Dodgers. vr, Xei
2005-08-07 22:30:29
11.   Steve
Grass is green
Sky is blue
Politicians lie
Jason Phillips shouldn't be playing first base.

Bold conclusion there by Steve Henson. Wake me when he gets around to figuring out how useless Izturis is.

2005-08-07 22:35:30
12.   rageon
11 - I think everyone is more impressed by the fact that Tracy's judgment was actually being question than by the specific conclusion reached.
2005-08-07 23:48:18
13.   Xeifrank
12. Yep. We all know that there has been plenty too choose from as far as Buntermakers judgement and strategy goes. Whether it be Phillips playing at 1B, Izturis leading off, or taking the bats of the hands of our best hitters with bunts to name a few of the more obvious ones.
vr, Xei
2005-08-08 00:10:43
14.   bigcpa
Congrats on the ink Jon. It's no minor thing since odds are that piece slides under the nose of JT himself.

And it's a good thing the newbies showed up just after the Trade Deadline Civil War.

2005-08-08 00:32:05
15.   Slipstream
"Tracy won't speak at length on the record, but he believes the 26-year-old South Korean is a defensive liability who lacks baseball savvy and doesn't hit well with runners in scoring position."

So that's what's goin' on. It's all about the savvy . . .

2005-08-08 00:46:55
16.   dzzrtRatt
I'd put it this way. You're working in an office, and a new person gets hired. One of your colleagues tells you, "there's something wrong with that guy. He's not all there. He's bizarre." At first, you don't see it. He seems fine. Works hard. Produces. Your friend, he's on crack. This guy is okay. Then, gradually, strange things start to happen, but at first you just chalk them up as part of the uniqueness of each individual. It's a tic. A blind spot. Something quirky. But then...the new guy does something so bizarre, so illogical, and suddenly, it all clicks. You realize, your friend was right. This guy is a loose cannon. Dumb as a box of rocks with the judgement of a 12-year-old. And he's gotta go.

That's what the Choi situation is for judging Tracy. It's a spotlight. Seeing how badly Tracy mishandles Choi is enlightening. It explains why the Dodgers have been so frustrating the past few years, close to being good but always falling short, and never seeming to catch a break, especially in the late innings when Tracy's weaknesses are also highlighted. The Dodgers are Jim Tracy's team, and Jim Tracy is not a winner.

2005-08-08 01:23:57
17.   bigcpa
16-
Building on what you said- most people here will agree that a manager can only have a minor effect on the win column. Especially since most managers play their best players, pull starters at 100 pitches and make a double switch now and then. The best mgrs may eke out 2-3 extra wins, the worst might cost you a few. So you have to be very patient and observant to catch a instance of a game the mgr frittered away. The 2003 Quantrill/Finley game was one. Maybe Weaver left in to give up the salami to LaRoche in May which we won anyway. Or maybe the "Drew bunt" game, or any close game involving Giovanni Carrara. Personally I didn't catch too many of these in 2002-2004. But this year I'm honestly losing count. Whether this 75 win team could have been an 81 win team may not sound important. But next year it could be a 91 win team that could have won 97. He must be stopped.

...and now for some comic relief:
http://tinyurl.com/e2m93

2005-08-08 01:41:38
18.   Kilgore Trout
The question now is whether that brief article in the LA Times is going to result in Choi playing more or Choi playing less.
2005-08-08 01:48:25
19.   Louis in SF
According to the Monday Daily News Phillips is just about healed and maybe ready to start Tuesday!..There are 51 games left and if San Diego maintains or pulls away, which considering how the division has played San Diego needs only to play the next marginally over 500 for say the next 15 games and that could really be it. If that happenss is Choi the starter in September. Does that also mean that Phillips is traded at the end of August to a contender, since I think Navarro is the future catcher with our double A catcher (can't remember his name now) the other likely candidate for games behind the plate.
Maybe just maybe that is why the Dodger have been trying to play Phillips so much?
2005-08-08 01:53:30
20.   coachjpark
Given Tracy's tendencies, what is the probability that Choi gets the start on Tuesday?

I'm going with 50/50.... it depends on the angle at which Tracy reads the Henson column....

2005-08-08 05:37:08
21.   Midwest Blue
Finally...Choi rallyers are justified and not crazy or spitting into the wind!

20 is right, this may not help Choi at all, but maybe it will help DePo justify easing Tracy out. It's nothing personal with Tracy. He just doesn't have the savvy to manage a difficult team.

As Depp's character in 'Pirates of the Carribean' would say: "Sabee?"

2005-08-08 05:38:07
22.   Joe Morgan
17 - "Building on what you said- most people here will agree that a manager can only have a minor effect on the win column."

This is true as far as STRATEGY goes. The manager can have a very large effect when he decides to bench some of his best players in favor of replacement level players.

2005-08-08 06:37:25
23.   Steelyeri
First of all, congrats to Jon and the rest of the folks here for getting a big time mention in the paper. It's great to see that if we type loud enough -- not to mention long enough-- someone would notice. In the end, let's hope it leads to some results.

Now tracy thinks that Choi isn't baseball savvy. Huh, that's a new one.

While the attention is great, and new and different opinions are welcome. Let's just hope people who come here to challenge our views on Choi, and Tracy etc. come with some evidence to back things up. ;)

2005-08-08 07:39:40
24.   Bob Timmermann
If you get the print version of the Times, Jon's name gets printed as Jon Weisman as all names do in the Times "notebook" stories.

Woo hoo!

2005-08-08 07:45:08
25.   deburns
Could this business about Choi not having "savvy" be coming from subliminal xenophobia? I'm sure Hee Sop's different cultural background and lack of shared experiences with Tracy could translate into Tracy's feeling that Hee Sop is "other." What would Tracy answer if asked to define precisely what "savvy" is from his point of view? What evidence is there that Choi consistently fails in taking the correct actions in key spots? (One potential definition of "savvy").
2005-08-08 07:51:38
26.   Joe Morgan
25. The only time I can think of an obvious lack of "baseball savvy" is on that play where the ball was bunted to the firstbase side and Choi got in the way of phillips's throw to first.
2005-08-08 08:12:02
27.   Jon Weisman
25- I really think that considering Tracy's love and worship of Hideo Nomo that a search for racial explanations for Choi's benching don't hold water. I'm of course not saying that Japan and South Korea are the same, just that it doesn't seem reasonable to conclude that Tracy cares about Choi being from Korea.
2005-08-08 08:23:28
28.   deburns
27 Jon: I was not saying that Tracy is a racist. Merely that searching for a reason for what on the surface seems unreasonable, I came up with a speculation that may well be unfounded. Searching for motives of other people is always chancy. I don't have any special knowledge or expertise in this area. Again, when Tracy advances a "reason" which seems to me to be unreasonable, I was flailing about looking for something else.
2005-08-08 08:33:08
29.   Howard Fox
5 - Jon, they may not be fundamental to this site, but it sure stokes the fire
2005-08-08 08:34:42
30.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Well, the phrase "subliminal xenophobia" sure as heck implies something like racism.

I have issues with Tracy's handling of Choi, but making this into a question of moral character is as dubious in my view as saying that Choi shouldn't play everyday because he's "soft." One of the powers of sabermetrics is its focus on actual, measurable results, as opposed to vague nonsense like whether or not someone's "baseball savvy."

WWSH

2005-08-08 08:36:23
31.   Midwest Blue
Carrara can do no wrong. He had a respiratory condition (poor baby).

http://www2.dailynews.com/sports/ci_2922130

Ghame Over can do no wrong.

http://tinyurl.com/ct2x7

If Tracy can make these kind of lame excuses for troubled players when there are good players behind them (Schmoll), why should we be surprised that he would prefer a statistically inferior player (Phillips) over a better player (Choi)?

I think it's Tracy's quixoticness that makes him so luvable :)

BTW: The above is dripping with sarcasm. I ABSOLUTELY hate Jim Tracy >:~<

2005-08-08 08:45:48
32.   Howard Fox
30 - any question regarding Choi's softness was answered when he collided with Scott Rolen...
2005-08-08 08:46:51
33.   Howard Fox
31 - at least Tracy is consistent
2005-08-08 08:48:39
34.   Midwest Blue
33 I wishe he were consistently unemployed with theDodger organization <:)
2005-08-08 08:58:36
35.   Steve
11 -- You are right. I just wish we could have started with something more nuanced, like JD Drew bunting or Odalis Perez hitting with the bases loaded after giving up seven runs.

You know what? On second thought, Tracy doesn't leave much to nuance.

2005-08-08 09:13:43
36.   Howard Fox
18 - the result will be Choi will play less, Tracy is not going to allow it too look like a bunch of bloggers influenced his thinking

besides, Choi traditionally does not hit well against pitchers taller than 6'2"

2005-08-08 09:21:33
37.   Jon Weisman
Well, Choi can't play much less than he has, so there's that.
2005-08-08 09:21:52
38.   fanerman
Can any bad come out of this? Aside from Choi's start yesterday, he was hardly playing anyway. A pinch hit here and there. What would have made us think that the rest of the season would be any different? Henson's article or no Henson's article?

Bringing the problem front and center (or closer to there anyway) forces Tracy to make a choice. If Choi starts more, then we're all better for it. If Choi continues to ride the bench, people "should" notice the problem more and that should make it easier to actually let go of Tracy. If Tracy stays and Choi still doesn't play, well, we don't know what would have happened without the article, but there's been no indication that anything would have changed about Choi's playing time anyway.

Did Tracy give a reason for Choi's playing? Rest Saenz? Maybe he heard of the article beforehand and already reacted...

2005-08-08 09:25:30
39.   Steve
Well, Choi can't play much less than he has, so there's that.

What's Grabowski hitting at Vegas again?

2005-08-08 09:28:42
40.   Bob Timmermann
The Giants loss yesterday made them 3-3 on their homestand. They have not had a winning homestand since their first one in April.

Life in the NL West.

2005-08-08 09:35:32
41.   Howard Fox
37 - actually, Choi does get a start about once a week...

40 - and they are in the race...

2005-08-08 09:36:06
42.   Colorado Blue
You know, there are so many facets to JT's ineptitude... just yesterday, I remember wondering if Tracy was going to let Ghame Over stay in until the score was tied.

I find the whole Choi discussion fascinating, but what really bothers me about Tracy are his in-game tactical decisions. His strategic positions (e.g. not playing Choi, constantly shuffling the line up) are bad enough, but add his apparent blindness to pitcher ineffectiveness is, well, just completely incompetent.

2005-08-08 09:37:43
43.   Howard Fox
38 - you give this exercise in baseball psychology too much credit...

if comments by a bunch of bloggers or even by a writer on the beat is going to influence Tracy's methods, then he is in the wrong business

2005-08-08 09:37:44
44.   Colorado Blue
42 - remove the word "add".
2005-08-08 09:38:12
45.   Midwest Blue
35 Steve, Are you talking to yourself?
2005-08-08 09:39:06
46.   Howard Fox
42 - as was mentioned a couple of days ago in one of these threads, Riggleman not being there may be a bigger issue than we thought...
2005-08-08 09:39:20
47.   Colorado Blue
43 - Uh, Howard, I believe the concensus is that JT is in the wrong business... he shouldn't need us or anyone else to point this out.
2005-08-08 09:40:48
48.   Howard Fox
47 - I don't think you got my point above
2005-08-08 09:41:15
49.   db1022
45 - At least he's agreeing with himself.
2005-08-08 09:41:34
50.   Colorado Blue
46 - Why? Was Riggleman in charge of hitting JT with the cattle prod?

I must apologize for all of my recent JT bashing. It's easy to slam the guy via the blogosphere, but I am convinced he needs to go.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-08-08 09:42:18
51.   Jon Weisman
37 - Well, he hadn't started since July 24.
2005-08-08 09:43:45
52.   Colorado Blue
48 - Yes, I got your point. I just was using your post as a segue into a really sarcastic comment.
2005-08-08 09:44:50
53.   Howard Fox
51 - he didn't start on this last road trip?

50 - wasn't he the bench coach giving Tracy advice...

2005-08-08 09:45:29
54.   fanerman
48 - I'm not sure you got mine either. The more people complaining about Tracy, the better, even if he doesn't change the way he does things. Assuming DePo wants to get rid of him eventually, that'll make it easier. If DePo doesn't want to get rid him, nothing changes. It's win or don't lose.
2005-08-08 09:46:01
55.   Howard Fox
52 - gee thanks, I don't get enough sarcasm thrown my way during a normal day, its nice to get it here too
2005-08-08 09:46:26
56.   fanerman
Don't lose any more than we already have been, I mean.
2005-08-08 09:47:27
57.   Colorado Blue
53, 50 - Yes he was... YASIASC. I will stop now.
2005-08-08 09:49:50
58.   Howard Fox
54 - again, if what we or others write influences DePo's personnel decisions, then he too is in the wrong business
2005-08-08 09:54:03
59.   Howard Fox
54 - again, if what we or others write influences DePo's personnel decisions, then he too is in the wrong business
2005-08-08 09:54:24
60.   Howard Fox
54 - again, if what we or others write influences DePo's personnel decisions, then he too is in the wrong business
2005-08-08 10:17:48
61.   fanerman
58-60
Again, that's not what I meant. DePo has repeatedly shown he's not influenced by writer's opinions. Regardless of that, it's probably a better idea to have popular support on your side. To this point, Tracy has generally had the media (and most of the public) on his side while DePo has had neither. Since I disagree with many of Tracy's decisions, I don't think it's a bad idea for people to start coming away from him. And if Henson can convince people to do that, I would think that that has to be a good thing.
2005-08-08 10:22:39
62.   Vishal
what's all this about "being in the wrong business" unless you're hardheaded and obstinate in the face of legitimate criticism? if tracy DOES read what we have to say, sees the logic in what we are saying, and corrects his behavior, then it means that he is in the wrong business because he was influenced? i mean, catering to the whims of a bunch of random people on the internet isn't NECESSARILY a smart move, but good advice is good advice, no matter where it comes from. it takes an intelligent man to be able to discern the nuggets of wisdom from among the massive amount of BS that's constantly being flung in one's direction.
2005-08-08 10:23:20
63.   Vishal
62 and of course the same goes for depodesta.
2005-08-08 10:23:21
64.   Howard Fox
59 & 60 - sorry for the multiple posts, I wasn't trying to be emphatic...

I don't think many fans are enthralled with Tracy. I go to most of the games, and the comments and mood toward Tracy is, to say the least, not positive. That hasn't affected him, he still has no idea when to pull a pitcher...

If the media and fan mood affected DePo in the least, he'd probably go and shoot himself. After hearing ESPN refer to him as Stupidesta, you would have to hope that he doesn't give any weight to us.

2005-08-08 10:27:33
65.   fanerman
Changing the subject a bit... where are some good seats for Dodger Stadium in the $20 range? I haven't been there in awhile and the last time I was there I just sat in the outfield bleachers.
2005-08-08 10:29:25
66.   Howard Fox
who is to say we are dispensing good advice? I mean we think we do, but one always thinks their views are well thought out and important, even if not...

we dispense opinions freely here, many backing them up with multitudes of "facts" and "statistics" proving ourselves right...

we feel good about ourselves when we do this, and that provides some solice when frustrations over the poor product on the field gets to us...that's great, and that, at least to me, is what this site is all about...

but to think we have influence with Tracy and DePo is overselling ourselves and our opinions just a bit...IMHO

2005-08-08 10:30:27
67.   Howard Fox
65 - I am moving from my seats in the $24 range...aisle 142 loge...so there will be 2 available there
2005-08-08 10:37:08
68.   Vishal
66- howard, i'm not saying we do or even should have any influence. all i'm saying is that in principle, reasonable advice needn't be dismissed out of hand simply because the source is relatively anonymous.

and again, who's to say whether our advice is good or not, but rather than dismiss us for being nobodies, shouldn't one rather evaluate our conclusions based on the "'facts' and 'statistics'" that support them?

2005-08-08 10:38:21
69.   Vishal
68 - and that is, after all, how WE evaluate THEIR decisions. reasonable enough, yes?
2005-08-08 10:40:37
70.   Howard Fox
69 - correct, and that is why we are called fans...
2005-08-08 10:47:46
71.   Sam DC
The LA Times is one thing, but a secondary reference in LA Observed, now that's something to be proud of . . .
2005-08-08 10:52:32
72.   dzzrtRatt
Yeah, most of us might not have the qualifications to stand up to Jim Tracy (or Joe Morgan for that matter) and tell them how they should manage a baseball team.

But on the other hand, healthy organizations in specific industries get advice from outsiders all the time, and pay a lot for it. Consultants aren't always long-time veterans of the industry in question. Sometimes, an outsider's perspective is what's sought.

To whatever extent DT is representative of serious Dodger fans, this is like a focus group. Surely the Dodgers do focus groups with respect to marketing. Why not focus group the baseball side, too?

In short: a) The Dodgers' management, including Tracy and DePodesta should be required to read Dodger Thoughts; b) We should all be getting paid.

2005-08-08 10:53:40
73.   Howard Fox
72 - now, getting paid for this...that is a great idea
2005-08-08 10:58:55
74.   Vishal
70 i don't think we're exactly on the same page here for some reason. i'm NOT saying that tracy or depo need to troll the internet to figure out what people are saying (though, i'll admit it would be funny to see trace's reaction to firejimtracy.com).

but let's say our esteemed dodger manager saw steve henson's article in the paper this morning, questioning his use of phillips over choi. were he a stubborn man, he would hard-headedly entrench himself in his anti-choi position and refuse to play him, just because. after all, how dare he permit some silly beat writer to influence HIS lineup??

however, if he was a wise and enlightened fellow, he would at least CONSIDER the argument presented before him, weigh its merits, and do a little self-analysis. "why am i benching choi? is his production that bad? is phillips a better alternative?" it's possible that he could come up with the same conclusion he's had, and not change his mind(in which case i would argue that he's not very smart, but that's another issue). but to say that outside opinions shouldn't influence him no matter what just doesn't make sense to me. decision-makers should be open-minded.

2005-08-08 11:06:59
75.   Steve
Well, I am right. :)

But I meant 12.

2005-08-08 11:14:39
76.   Jon Weisman
I try to picture Tracy sitting in his office and finding, for example, the RISP stat that he cited in Phillips' favor. You cannot come to that stat without seeing other stats that would come out in Choi's favor. I have to think that Tracy is operating on gut instincts on this one, and is just rationalizing after the fact - finding stats that he can cite in the event he might be asked. So I can't imagine today's article making any difference. It doesn't even make the best arguments against Phillips, and the teasing remark is not likely to make Tracy a friend of DT.
2005-08-08 11:20:27
77.   Marty
76. I think you are right Jon. I don't think Tracy will be sending any of us any Christmas cards soon.
2005-08-08 11:23:00
78.   Icaros
DT is too cool for Tracy anyway.
2005-08-08 11:24:46
79.   Jon Weisman
Tracy did, unbeknownst to him I think, use a post I did a year ago to defend his use of Eric Gagne. Ross Porter showed it to him, but I don't think Tracy really knew where it came from.
2005-08-08 11:25:12
80.   Steve
So I'm not the only one that didn't get a christmas card?
2005-08-08 11:26:16
81.   fanerman
79
What was the post and what did Tracy say?
2005-08-08 11:30:54
82.   db1022
I think it's unfortunate that your post on Choi was reprinted out of context. It really didn't come off very well - at least more snotty that the intention of the full post.

Was that intentional? Was he trying to give props to DT, but at the same time undermine the credibility of this site (and blogs in general)?

2005-08-08 11:31:38
83.   Steelyeri
Tracy's logic being Questioned in the media is great. That our opinions have been reported in the paper is even better. Maybe Jimbo will realize that his stupidity isn't going unnoticed. And that we don't buy his crazy reasonds for bonehead decisions.

JT will probably not change his mind after reading the article. However, with more of the spotlight being pointed towards the subject, maybe the arguement that Choi should be starting will become the mainstream one. I don't think it is now, but I can see the momentum shifting towards that opinion.

Who knows, maybe by the time that JT gets fired people will point to not starting Choi as his downfall. Now wouldn't that be something.

2005-08-08 11:36:52
84.   Jon Weisman
82 - No, Steve's a friend both of me and this site. But I agree about the possible misinterpretation - sort of why I re-laid out my arguments up top.
2005-08-08 11:45:40
85.   Steelyeri
82 The article didn't seem like it was undermining the site at all. SH did on the other hand,seem to like jon's way of pointing out the irony in the whole situation.

I saw it more of a way for steve henson oletting his opinion be known without being to opinionated. Seing as how he doesn't get to write his regular column yet. Which really is a shame.

2005-08-08 11:46:57
86.   Steelyeri
85-

oletting = letting :0

2005-08-08 11:49:42
87.   dzzrtRatt
85 Reporters with a point of view are always looking for someone other than themselves to quote expressing that point of view. If Henson is just not that into Jim Tracy anymore, DT is a goldmine!
2005-08-08 12:13:06
88.   db1022
85 - A writer's intention is sometimes different than the way it comes off. If he really wanted to convey Jon's tone of the article, it sure was an odd passage to include. Rather than citing any of Jon's thoughtful analysis, he chose to include a passage that comes off as a conspiracy theory based on pop-psychology.

It's great to get a mention, but I thought it was kind of back handed. Jon vouches for him though, so that's good enough for me.

2005-08-08 12:14:49
89.   bigcpa
I just read the X-rays on LaRoche's wrist were negative after he was HBP Saturday and came out of the game.
2005-08-08 12:31:06
90.   fanerman
89 - That's a relief.
2005-08-08 12:50:35
91.   Jon Weisman
81 - I'd have to hunt it down. I think it had to do with accusations of overworking Gagne after the Mota trade, but I'd want to double-check.
2005-08-08 13:16:45
92.   Bob Timmermann
Dodger Thoughts

Come for the Choi
Stay for the Suns

2005-08-08 13:31:46
93.   Bob Timmermann
I hate days when the "Big Four" in the NL West are all off. There just won't be any fun baseball to watch when I get home. The Yankees-White Sox should still be going on.

There's only one late West Coast game tonight and that is Minnesota at Seattle. Seattle seems to have a monopoly on Monday nights. Seattle is so boring to watch too.

2005-08-08 13:57:24
94.   Midwest Blue
80 Maybe you should send one to yourself?
2005-08-08 13:58:03
95.   Midwest Blue
93 There's alway MNF. HAll of Fame pre-season game. Woo-hoo.
2005-08-08 14:05:01
96.   Bob Timmermann
95
I went to a CFL game last Monday. I've put in my time for weird football.

But I did find out that R. Jay Soward is still employed.

2005-08-08 14:05:23
97.   Steve
It would be marked "Return to Sender"
2005-08-08 14:05:28
98.   natepurcell
suns game today, at home at 4PT, jackson is pitching. i hope he dominates!
2005-08-08 14:05:31
99.   natepurcell
suns game today, at home at 4PT, jackson is pitching. i hope he dominates!
2005-08-08 14:39:06
100.   Kilgore Trout
Just to play devil's advocate for a minute:

We're assuming that Choi hasn't been playing despite his relatively high OPS.

Maybe his OPS is as high as it is because Tracy keeps him on the bench against left-handers, good pitchers, and pitchers with "arm angle" issues.

Maybe he's only been successful against triple-A level pitchers like the guy the Pirates started yesterday.

Anyone have any evidence, statistical or anecdotal, to refute this theory?

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-08-08 14:45:23
101.   Bob Timmermann
Anecdotal evidence:

Ask Brad Radke about Hee Seop Choi. Tell Radke he's a AAA pitcher.

2005-08-08 14:48:35
102.   fanerman
100
The only evidence is that he was pretty successful for the Marlins last year for 4 months before being traded to us and that he's young so there's not much evidence either way (if he's successful because of limited playing time or if he's successful in spite of it) so we feel he should at least get the benefit of the doubt.

What many of us want is just to give him a chance (because he's young and he's showed the potential) so we know exactly what we have. We can't judge him on his inconsistent playing time so we really don't know how good/bad or consistent/inconsistent he is. If we were grading him, he'd get an incomplete. Sort of the same way DePo would get one because of the freak injuries that have happened this season and that sort of thing.

2005-08-08 14:48:45
103.   Bob Timmermann
Choi's homers this year are against:
Russ Ortiz
David Weathers
Paul Wilson
Jason Jennings
Runelvys Hernandez
Joe Mays
Terry Mulholland
Brad Radke (x3)
Carlos Silva
Brett Tomko
Kevin Jarvis
Hector Carrasco
2005-08-08 14:51:22
104.   Jon Weisman
Don't most hitters hit home runs off mediocre to weak pitchers, by definition? Wouldn't it be strange to find a hitter that hit most of his homers off great pitchers?

But ultimately, it's a chicken and egg thing. Choi doesn't often face the great pitchers, so he has little chance to build up success against them.

2005-08-08 14:54:42
105.   Bob Timmermann
The sample sizes aren't relevant, but the three pitchers who seem to have given Choi trouble this year are:
Javier Vazquez - 0 for 9, 3 Ks
Paul Byrd - 0 for 6
Jason Schmidt - 0 for 5, 4 Ks

In Houston, Choi went a combined 3 for 6 against Oswalt and Clemens.

2005-08-08 14:56:42
106.   fanerman
There's not much evidence to suggest Choi would succeed or fail as a regular because... he's hardly played as a regular.
2005-08-08 15:00:02
107.   ddger
Does savvy have anything to do with intelligence?

Wonder if Tracy was considered a "savvy" ballplayer in his days.

Since, Phillips is catcher, he might be considered "savvy" according to Tracy.

We now replace scrappy with savvy (Repko, Robles,Izturis,Phillips) players.

2005-08-08 15:04:11
108.   Marty
Tracy: You're not in the lineup because of Catch-22
Choi: Catch-22? What's that?
Tracy: In order to be in my lineup, you need to prove you're an everyday player. In order to prove you're an everyday player, you need to be in the lineup.
Choi: Wow, that's some catch, that Catch-22
Tracy: It's the best there is.
2005-08-08 15:05:47
109.   Kayaker7
100 Since Choi hit better against lefties when he was in the minors, maybe it is actually holding back his performance to have him bat only against righties. He hit minor league lefties to a .300 clip.
2005-08-08 15:06:05
110.   ddger
Can Tracy's comment of Choi "who lacks baseball savvy" comparable to Al Campanis's comment in 1987 about lack of black managers because they "lack the necessities"?

http://www.answers.com/topic/al-campanis

2005-08-08 15:09:45
111.   King of the Hobos
98 Actually, it starts at 3 PT today. First pitch around the time this is posted
2005-08-08 15:12:00
112.   fanerman
Savvy is a term that seems to make more sense in other sports where players have more freedom to do things, ie basketball, hockey, etc. It seems like smart players have a knack for being in the right place at the right time, making the right pass, etc. to overcome physical limitations (ie, players more athletic than they are).

I don't know what savvy means in baseball, where movement is more restricted. You have to run to 1st base. You have to tag the runner out. Blah blah. You know where you're supposed to be and where you're supposed to go. Or maybe Choi is unsavvy because he got in the way in that play near 1st base. But didn't Phillips do that, too?

Not sure if this adds to the discussion. But "scrappy" seems to be more a physical attribute (hustle, bunting, etc.). "savvy" seems to be more the mental equivalent of "scrappy."

2005-08-08 15:16:08
113.   King of the Hobos
Jackson gave up a single to D'Angelo Jimenez, but otherwise did fine in the first. No Ks though.

Laroche isn't in the line up once again

2005-08-08 15:17:12
114.   Kayaker7
112 If the umpires got the call right, Choi getting in the way on that bunt wouldn't even be discussed right now. So, Saenz gets a pass on his two errors the other day, because he is a thoroughly professional hitter? What about Kent's two errors couple of games before that? It seems to me that Tracy had a negative preconception of Choi, and every little thing he does wrong confirms those preconceptions, while anything positive he does gets interpreted as flukes.
2005-08-08 15:17:28
115.   ddger
112 Guess you have to be scrappy and savvy to start for Tracy.
2005-08-08 15:18:40
116.   Steve
Savvy is the New Scrappy. We're also going to have to debunk, according to my thesaurus, "bellicose, belligerent, combative, contentious, hostile, militant, pugnacious, quarrelsome, truculent, warlike."

That's scrappy? That would make me scrappy. This word. I do not think it means what they think it means.

2005-08-08 15:19:50
117.   Kilgore Trout
Maybe the people who know more about journalism than me can answer this question:

If "Tracy won't speak at length on the record", then how is it that we know that "he believes the 26-year-old South Korean is a defensive liability who lacks baseball savvy and doesn't hit well with runners in scoring position"?

Has Tracy actually said these things "off the record"?

2005-08-08 15:21:06
118.   fanerman
Hmm... now that I ponder it more... scrappy and savvy do seem to go hand-in-hand.

Scrappy meaning something like "to use 'energy' to exceed normal player output."
Savvy meaning something like "to use 'smarts' and 'instinct' to exceed normal player output."

2005-08-08 15:23:31
119.   Marty
117. I would guess he said that sentence or something similar on the record and one sentence is not speaking at length.
2005-08-08 15:24:05
120.   fanerman
114 - I think by now we should realize that there's no point in analyzing Tracy's decisions logically... unless it's just for fun.
2005-08-08 15:24:53
121.   Marty
Scrappy. Adj. See "Intangible"
Savvy. Adj. See "Intangible"
2005-08-08 15:25:45
122.   fanerman
121 - scrappy and savvy are both subsets of intangible.
2005-08-08 15:26:13
123.   Steve
Being told by Jim Tracy that you lack "baseball savvy" is like being told by Andrew Dice Clay that you lack manners.
2005-08-08 15:26:25
124.   Jon Weisman
110 - No. Just for starters, it's the difference between making a generalization and speaking about a single person. If you're extrapolating the savvy comment about Choi to apply to all Koreans, then you're the one making this about race. (Hypothetically, that is - I'm not accusing you of anything.) There is no evidence at all that Tracy has it in for players of any race.
2005-08-08 15:28:22
125.   King of the Hobos
Update on Jackson: He gave up an infield single (Guzman was far too deep to get the out), but got out of the inning. Struck out old friend Rick Bell
2005-08-08 15:29:41
126.   dzzrtRatt
Scrappy is easy to identify. Dirty uniforms, airborne glovework, aggressive base-running. Savvy takes one to know one. I don't trust Jim Tracy's savvy-dar.

Buck Showalter is a savvy manager. Tony LaRussa. Bobby Cox. Jim Leyland. Felipe Alou, maybe. Jim Tracy has never been, and will never be, savvy. Nor will he ever be "crafty," another quality attributed to good managers. Nor will he "a motivator," like the great Lasorda. Nor will anyone call him "a player's manager" like Dusty Baker.

Jim Tracy is just sort of there. He has no outstanding features at all. He mostly manages defensively, with the alibi firmly in mind before he proceeds. He manages like an insurance actuary.

No Fortune 500 company will ever invite Jim Tracy to a weekend at Hilton Head to tell its executives the secrets of great management.

2005-08-08 15:31:55
127.   Marty
Just the thought of Tracy as a motivational speaker has my head spinning.
2005-08-08 15:32:53
128.   ddger
124 Yes, you are probably right. I just think Tracy was little insensitive when he made that comment. I don't think Choi is the only one lacking baseball savvy on the Dodgers though. It's just frustrating trying to follow Tracy's reasoning this season.
2005-08-08 15:33:17
129.   natepurcell
everyone should watch this suns game. greg miller has just been promoted to AA and will pitch in tonights game after jackson.
2005-08-08 15:38:12
130.   ddger
Can Tracy be taking a shot at Depo's moneyball philosophy of aquiring players based on numbers instead of checking their baseball savviness?
2005-08-08 15:42:00
131.   King of the Hobos
Jackson pitches a 1-2-3 3rd inning, striking out 1 more (the pitcher)
2005-08-08 15:42:30
132.   natepurcell
jacksons slider is looking good. i wonder what his fastball velocity is.
2005-08-08 15:44:53
133.   Mark
Hmm. I always thought of Scrappy as the idiotic cousin of Scooby, brought in to try to save ratings.
2005-08-08 15:46:02
134.   fanerman
130 - I don't think Tracy is part of any conspiracies. It looks more of a personal thing. I could speculate (ie, reverberations from "The Trade"), but... it'd all be guess work.
2005-08-08 15:47:54
135.   Steve
130 -- That's almost surely what it is, given that there are no rational explanations.
2005-08-08 15:50:09
136.   Kayaker7
135 Are you the same Steve from firejimtracy.com?
2005-08-08 15:52:35
137.   Steve
unfortunately
2005-08-08 15:53:47
138.   Kayaker7
137 LOL. I noticed that Jim Tracy posted a comment on your site, "Fire Steve!" I thought Jim didn't have the time to browse the internet. ;-)
2005-08-08 15:54:04
139.   sanchez101
watching the suns game; ive watched probably 3-5 suns games this season and have never seen anyother minor league team. Im shocked by how fast the game moves. Why is this? Is it because of the rule that batters cannot leave the box during the at bat this year? If it is they need to incorperate that rule in the majors next year.
2005-08-08 15:56:17
140.   fanerman
130 - I don't think Tracy really is the "I'm waging a psychological war" type guy. I think the other likely thing is... Tracy values defense. Everybody agrees with that. Tracy may look at Choi. Then See "moneyball player." Then think of the ESPN caricature of slow big guy that hits homers and can't field.

Older "moneyball players" like Saenz, Drew, and maybe Kent or whoever are vets and therefore have a "professionalism" younger guys like Choi may lack. Other guys like Bradley have speed and look good on defense so they don't fit the stereotype as well.

Choi seems like the closest Dodger there is to the ESPN stereotype moneyball player.

2005-08-08 15:57:12
141.   Jon Weisman
130, 135 - So, DePodesta gives Tracy the best second baseman in the NL, the best starting pitcher on his team, the ever-loveable Jason Phillps, promotes Brazoban to the majors, re-signs Olmedo Saenz, gives him a talented player with fire in his belly (now well-channeled) in Milton Bradley, but Tracy is going to stick it to DePodesta for liking Choi's statistical potential?
2005-08-08 15:57:18
142.   natepurcell
i cant wait for greg miller!!!
2005-08-08 15:59:08
143.   Steve
141 -- yes
2005-08-08 16:01:03
144.   Steelyeri
114 You're right.Now that I think about it. There have been many occasions in which other players have been charged with errors (mostly throwing errors) because saenz can't reach a throw(Choi is taller), won't come off the bag to save a bad throw, or mishandles a bounce. In other words, if Choi would have been playing those games,the Saenz factor wouldn't come into effect and it would have saved atleast 5 errors (off the top of my head) between Kent, Valentin, and Bradley. That is why I don't buy the Choi isn't out there because of his defense excuse. Not to mention the double plays Choi turns because he's a lefty.
2005-08-08 16:02:53
145.   Jon Weisman
I know what to get Nate for Christmas. Greg Miller!
2005-08-08 16:04:10
146.   Steve
144 -- Of course, if Phillips didn't have a busted hand, we would have seen him at first three of the last four nights.
2005-08-08 16:05:39
147.   natepurcell
I know what to get Nate for Christmas. Greg Miller!

greg miller, healthy and dominating like he was in 2003 would be a great present.

2005-08-08 16:07:10
148.   Steelyeri
I wonder if you could enter the burrito for a year contest if you live in L.A.
2005-08-08 16:08:05
149.   natepurcell
jacksons slider is filthy today!
2005-08-08 16:10:14
150.   Jim Hitchcock
146 - We'll see the Perseid meteor shower this weekend, Steve...there's always a chance that Phillips will get clobbered by one.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-08-08 16:10:56
151.   Jim Hitchcock
Jackson strikes out the side? What the heck?
2005-08-08 16:11:27
152.   fanerman
151 - That's music to my ears.
2005-08-08 16:11:49
153.   sanchez101
this is like a completely different jackson than ive seen in LA. His presence on the mound is much more confident. Where have these pitches been the last 18 months?
2005-08-08 16:11:59
154.   Yakface
I hate being completly off topic but could anyone help me out? I'm really interested in the amount of money that will most likely be available this off season and what starting pitchers besides Burnett will be available, and how much do you think Depo has spent on call ups this year?
2005-08-08 16:12:21
155.   King of the Hobos
Nice to see Jackson dominating again, just struck out the side, for 6 in 5 IP (although the pitcher and Ricky Bell have both K'd twice). Hopefully he figured out what was wrong and will prove that not trading him was smart
2005-08-08 16:12:31
156.   natepurcell
jackson just struck out the side. he look amazing. his slider is filthy, his fast reached 95 on the gun, which equals to 98-99 mph.

wow go edwin go!

2005-08-08 16:13:18
157.   natepurcell
oh wow. depo is at the suns game tonight. and jackson is pitching a hell of a game. wow, great news for ejax!
2005-08-08 16:14:48
158.   fanerman
98-99? Wasn't he only at 92-93 in the majors or something? Maybe lower?

How does he look on the mound, mechanics-wise?

2005-08-08 16:16:20
159.   natepurcell
How does he look on the mound, mechanics-wise?

he looks like the jackson of 2003. fluid, easy motion. he looks great basically.

2005-08-08 16:16:55
160.   Jim Hitchcock
So, does anyone know if they play Freebird before every Suns home game?
2005-08-08 16:18:21
161.   ddger
If Edwin turns out to be anything close to John Patterson (Pirates), I'd be delighted.
2005-08-08 16:20:22
162.   natepurcell
you mean john patterson of the nationals?
2005-08-08 16:22:25
163.   ddger
162. You're right. Nationals, the one who threw shutout against us.
2005-08-08 16:23:37
164.   natepurcell
lol dbacks traded patterson for randy choate. heh
2005-08-08 16:25:34
165.   bokonon42
Steve Henson took a pretty nasty teeth-kicking here last week for the piece explaining (blessing) Tracy's Phillips fetish. He ought to get credit for today's Choi piece. I'd love to see him take 2500 words and destroy the Phillips at first theory, but for what he is permitted to write, I think he did well.
2005-08-08 16:26:25
166.   natepurcell
i just saw logan white sitting in the crowd. is it sad that i can recognize him in the crowd?
2005-08-08 16:26:48
167.   ddger
Nate, who's the new closer for Suns.
2005-08-08 16:27:50
168.   fanerman
Nate,
No. It's impressive. I wish I could do that. I couldn't recognize LaRoche, Guzman, Martin, Billingsley, etc. in a crowd.
2005-08-08 16:30:30
169.   natepurcell
Nate, who's the new closer for Suns

beltran perez and kuo have been closing.

2005-08-08 16:31:52
170.   ddger
Is Perez the guy we got from Green trade?
2005-08-08 16:32:11
171.   Steve
At least Steve Henson has teeth
2005-08-08 16:32:33
172.   Identity Crisis
Ahh...home from class and the game is on. Perfect!
2005-08-08 16:32:38
173.   natepurcell
jacksons fastball is like a blur. hes throwing darts.
2005-08-08 16:33:07
174.   King of the Hobos
167 I don't think they have one per se. Kuo will close usually it seems, but Beltran Perez did yesterday

Jackson was his own enemy in the 6th, an infield single off his glove, then 6-2 DP, then Loney made a great stop, flipped to Jackson, who dropped the ball for an error. Pop up to Loney to end the inning though

2005-08-08 16:33:41
175.   King of the Hobos
170 Yes
2005-08-08 16:34:26
176.   fanerman
Is Jackson's nickname officially "E-Jax" (or some variation thereof)?
2005-08-08 16:35:13
177.   ddger
It'll be interesting to see who gets called up next month.
2005-08-08 16:35:33
178.   fanerman
In 176, when I say "official," I mean DT official. The way Russell Martin's nickname is "Russell Martin, Canadian Mountee of Walks... And Heart."
2005-08-08 16:36:05
179.   natepurcell
king of hobos, is this the best jackson has looked to you this whole year? I just cant put my finger on it, but it seems that he isnt trying to be cute and on the corners anymore, he realizes he has plus stuff and is finally using it. he is also showing a tougher mentality on the mound, that "bulldog" look is something he needs to show consistently like he is doing tonight.
2005-08-08 16:36:55
180.   natepurcell
well jacksons old nickname was king edwin back in 2003 when he beat RJ, but it seems king felix of the mariners has taken the title of the king.
2005-08-08 16:37:07
181.   sanchez101
e-jax seems fine for now, but i think that if he make a comeback we need to look for a better nickname.
2005-08-08 16:37:10
182.   ddger
Is Miller going to pitch today? When.
2005-08-08 16:38:44
183.   Identity Crisis
I guess they didn't expect E-Jax to do this well. They probably thought Miller would already been in.
2005-08-08 16:39:43
184.   fanerman
What's his line so far?
2005-08-08 16:39:51
185.   Identity Crisis
Wow...5 pitch inning
2005-08-08 16:40:12
186.   sanchez101
im starting to think that we may not see miller today
2005-08-08 16:40:22
187.   natepurcell
well darn, i dunno if i should be mad that we might not see miller pitch today or happy because jackson is cruising and aiming for a CG.
2005-08-08 16:40:28
188.   King of the Hobos
180 Of course, that title could destroy Felix. He debuted at an exceedingly young age like Jackson and was handed the nickname king like Jackson. Next year he is bound to get hammered in spring, then continue getting pounded in Seattle/Tacoma, before returning to his old self at age 21

5 pitch inning for Jackson

2005-08-08 16:40:50
189.   ddger
Are the Dodgers moving Miller quickly through the system in order to bring him up so that he can be our LOOGY?
2005-08-08 16:41:21
190.   natepurcell
if it was any other pitcher, i would pull them and put miller in. but jackson needs the confidence booster and this might be it for him.

his line is
7IP 3H 0ER 1bb 6k

2005-08-08 16:42:06
191.   King of the Hobos
We got a tied game, could go into the 10th...

184 7 IP, 3 hits, 0 runs, 1 BB, 6 Ks

2005-08-08 16:42:09
192.   natepurcell
Are the Dodgers moving Miller quickly through the system in order to bring him up so that he can be our LOOGY?

no way, miller= highest cieling in our system of pitchers. we wouldnt waste that on a loogy.

2005-08-08 16:42:39
193.   dzzrtRatt
181 E-jax sounds like the name of a character on one of those late night soft core porn movies on HBO, the ones set on a spaceship. For his sake, I hope it goes by the wayside soon.

Unlike Jason or Zach, Edwin is not a very common baseball name, so let's just call him Edwin.

2005-08-08 16:43:49
194.   Identity Crisis
Looks like we might see Miller in the next inning...he is warming up
2005-08-08 16:44:14
195.   fanerman
E-Jax reminds me of Ajax (the cleaner). Edwin sounds like royalty. Maybe he deserves a "sir" instead of JtD.
2005-08-08 16:45:06
196.   db1022
Sir Edwin Jackson?
2005-08-08 16:45:33
197.   fanerman
196 - Of Jacksonville
2005-08-08 16:46:12
198.   Identity Crisis
Ahh...Loney got caught at second. Martin looked like a blur running from 2nd all the way home.
2005-08-08 16:46:22
199.   natepurcell
yes loney! comes through with the rbi single. he is 2-4 on the game. batting around .291 for the season i think.
2005-08-08 16:46:37
200.   King of the Hobos
Martin walk, hit-and-run ground out to advance Martin, and Loney just singled him in for the lead. Loney out at second. Now Jackson can win it, something he more than deserves
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-08-08 16:46:46
201.   ddger
Does Loney remind you of John Olerud?
2005-08-08 16:46:49
202.   dzzrtRatt
196 perfect
2005-08-08 16:46:54
203.   natepurcell
lol, sir edwin of jackson.....ville
2005-08-08 16:48:33
204.   db1022
203 - I would hope that would be a temporary name.
2005-08-08 16:52:31
205.   Identity Crisis
That is 7 strikeouts
2005-08-08 16:53:05
206.   ddger
Guess we won't see Miller tonight.
2005-08-08 16:53:55
207.   Identity Crisis
Who is scheduled to start tomorrow?
2005-08-08 16:54:42
208.   ddger
Jackson picked the right time to have his best game with Depo and White watching.
2005-08-08 16:55:10
209.   King of the Hobos
206 There's still the 9th, but Jackson is cruising. Building Jackson's confidence seems far more important than giving Miller an inning of work
2005-08-08 16:55:25
210.   db1022
207 - Another stud.
2005-08-08 16:55:39
211.   ddger
Is it just coincidence that Depo and White are both here with the possibilites of a trade upcoming.
2005-08-08 16:56:27
212.   fanerman
How many pitches has Sir Edwin thrown?
2005-08-08 16:56:41
213.   Identity Crisis
8 strikeouts.
2005-08-08 16:57:00
214.   King of the Hobos
8th K for Jackson, but the batter reached
2005-08-08 16:58:09
215.   Identity Crisis
Martin just gunned somebody down.
2005-08-08 16:58:35
216.   natepurcell
bring sir edwin of jackson...ville out in the 9th. he needs this CG shutout more than any other pitcher in our system.
2005-08-08 16:58:37
217.   ddger
The tag looked late to me but they called him out.
2005-08-08 16:58:38
218.   King of the Hobos
Martin made up for the WP/PB (they said it was a WP, but I'm not convinced), just threw out the runner to get out of the inning
2005-08-08 17:00:27
219.   db1022
211 - Unlikely. Who would we be after during the waiver claim period? We have a pretty good waiver position due to the fact that we stink, but I'm not sure there's still a lot of hope left.

And if we brought in a Mike Sweeney right now for Edwin Jackson - well, I'm not sure what kind of reaction that would get.

Nate - maybe you could put that reaction into words for us?

2005-08-08 17:00:41
220.   Jim Hitchcock
217 - Runner was safe. But the ump never listens to me anymore.
2005-08-08 17:00:46
221.   b1ued0dger
211 I think they were there to see Greg Miller.
2005-08-08 17:02:37
222.   natepurcell
Nate - maybe you could put that reaction into words for us?

those words would not bode well with jon's no cussing policy.

2005-08-08 17:02:57
223.   King of the Hobos
Nick Alvarez up for Jackson, Miller's coming in for the save
2005-08-08 17:03:06
224.   natepurcell
everyone clap for edwin! i wish they would let him throw the CG shutout. oh well.
2005-08-08 17:05:57
225.   King of the Hobos
Announcer just said "this is probably the best game that Jackson has ever pitched in his minor league career." While I don't know about that, that's pretty high praise
2005-08-08 17:07:54
226.   fanerman
I didn't think I'd be saying this, but I'm a little disappointed Miller is coming in the game.
2005-08-08 17:08:57
227.   King of the Hobos
5 pitch walk for Miller. Every one of his pitches landed in the same general area
2005-08-08 17:10:13
228.   King of the Hobos
Miller comes back for a 3 pitch K on Jimenez
2005-08-08 17:10:21
229.   Identity Crisis
226. Same here.
2005-08-08 17:12:35
230.   natepurcell
miller has bulked consderibly in the last 2 years.

in 2003, he was a twig!

2005-08-08 17:14:09
231.   King of the Hobos
Miller hits the batter on a full count right after a line drive just foul
2005-08-08 17:15:17
232.   fanerman
So runners on 1st and 2nd with 1 out?
2005-08-08 17:15:18
233.   db1022
How was Miller in single A? Did he pitch there full time this year, or did he start mid-year?
2005-08-08 17:15:18
234.   db1022
How was Miller in single A? Did he pitch there full time this year, or did he start mid-year?
2005-08-08 17:16:22
235.   King of the Hobos
Another 3 pitch K. I guess he's wild every other batter
2005-08-08 17:17:23
236.   King of the Hobos
First pitch to the next batter is a wild pitch
2005-08-08 17:18:57
237.   King of the Hobos
Blooper to Meadows after 2 ugly swing and misses, Suns win 1-0
2005-08-08 17:19:58
238.   natepurcell
that was exciting. i saw a fastball, curveball and a slider from miller. Also a new release point. 2 yrs ago, it was more over the top, now its a little more 3 quarters.
2005-08-08 17:20:58
239.   King of the Hobos
233 He started for the GCL Dodgers a few weeks ago, and then made a few appearnaces for Vero Beach. He's striking out guys at a good rate (2 tonight) but is pretty wild thanks to a new arm angle (he's now at a 3/4 delivery that's almost side arm rather than over the top)
2005-08-08 17:21:11
240.   ddger
Great outing by Edwin tonight. Miller was little wild but his stuff looked good.
2005-08-08 17:21:45
241.   Identity Crisis
I'm guessing next year Miller will start at Double A. Next year they might have a rotation of Tiffany, Orenduff, Pimintel! Mark Alexander and Jose Diaz in the bullpen
2005-08-08 17:22:49
242.   Identity Crisis
241. I meant to say a rotation of Miller, Tiffany, Orenduff, and Plimintel
2005-08-08 17:23:20
243.   ddger
I think our Suns might be able to beat our AAA team.
2005-08-08 17:24:07
244.   King of the Hobos
Werth is starting for the 51s today, grounded out in his first at bat. First 4 batters all grounded the ball, but Young got it through for a single
2005-08-08 17:25:32
245.   natepurcell
next year suns rotation:
tiffany
miller
hochevar
pimental
megrew
2005-08-08 17:25:32
246.   Nagman
Has anybody missed Werth on the big league club?
2005-08-08 17:25:34
247.   ddger
244 are you watching that game?
2005-08-08 17:27:02
248.   King of the Hobos
243 The 51s have 3 pitchers with an ERA under 5.00. The Suns have 3 with it over 5.00. Park factors aside, I'd say Jacksonville could slaughter Vegas
2005-08-08 17:27:21
249.   ddger
245 Assuming hochevar will be signed. How much will it take to sign him?
2005-08-08 17:27:35
250.   natepurcell
ken howell, the suns pitching coach was just on the post game show and he was talking about miller. he said his delivery is a little unorthodox right now and they will work with him to find that consistent release point from the 3 quarter angle. he said he still has the great stuff, 94 mph fastball, knucklecurve, slider, change.

they plan on him going in 50 pitch spurts for the rest of the year.

he talked about edwin saying the same thing about finding that consistent release point and if he can do that, he will come back strong.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-08-08 17:27:37
251.   King of the Hobos
247 No, just looked at the boxscore
2005-08-08 17:28:10
252.   natepurcell
245 Assuming hochevar will be signed. How much will it take to sign him?

probably around 2.5-3.5 mil

2005-08-08 17:30:09
253.   Identity Crisis
Nate, you think Orenduff will be moving up to Triple A to start the season? I'm guessing Hochevar starts at Single A (vero beach) then moves up quickly after that (a la Jared Weaver). When is Megrew supposed to be ready to start pitching again?
2005-08-08 17:30:38
254.   ddger
Are we assuming that Billingsley and Jackson will either be at AAA or majors next year?

How about Hanrahan?

2005-08-08 17:31:44
255.   Identity Crisis
Billingsley, definitely. Jackson....I'm not sold on one start but we'll see.
2005-08-08 17:34:40
256.   natepurcell
i think orenduff, billingsley, and jackson will have to move up to AAA next year. if we keep them in AA, they wont get any better facing redunant competition and we would have a log jam of pitchers.

hanrahan might be traded or lost in the rule 5. but if he is still with the org, he would probably have to move up to vegas as well.

with hochevar, he might start at AA. he is incredibly polished. But i would think if he starts off at very, it would only be one month at vero then move up to AA.

megrew, should be ready to throw from the mound by november/december ish.

right now, he is throwing, just doing long toss and stuff. no mound work yet.

2005-08-08 17:37:44
257.   ddger
I still wish our AAA team isn't at Vegas. Our AAA pitchers have hard time playing in that park.
2005-08-08 17:40:16
258.   Identity Crisis
The reason I think Orenduff will start at double A next year is because he has only been at Jax since June 19. He has only thrown 37 innings so far (he threw 60 in Vero Beach).

That is good to hear about Megrew.

2005-08-08 17:40:55
259.   King of the Hobos
LA won both the Junior and Senior RBI titles. In the Senior one, George McDonald went 3-4 with a homer and 4 RBIs. He's a switch hitting catcher that the Dodgers drafted, but he wasn't expected to sign until after this.
2005-08-08 18:05:30
260.   King of the Hobos
Werth walked in his second AB. Corey Patterson is single handedly destroying Eckert and the 51s
2005-08-08 18:27:00
261.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Miller changed his delivery to prevent another shoulder injury, right?

WWSH

2005-08-08 18:33:21
262.   natepurcell
Miller changed his delivery to prevent another shoulder injury, right?

sort of. his old delivery was pinching a never in his shoulder blade. He had surgery to shave down the blade to not disturb the nerve and the change in delivery was a future caution to not distrupt the nerve.

2005-08-08 18:36:49
263.   Bob Timmermann
Former Dodger, among other things in his long baseball career, Gene Mauch has passed away at age 79.
2005-08-08 18:53:51
264.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 262

Thanks Nate--that does sound like what I remember. It was a pleasant surprise to see that he's back in AA--I thought they would be more cautious with him and keep him down in A ball. I'm a little worried about any change to his delivery, but he's so young that he has plenty of time to iron out the kinks. And it sounds like he's still throwing mid-90s.

WWSH

2005-08-08 20:42:50
265.   Xeifrank
Looks like the O.C., LA team has their own lineup contraversy. With Erstad coming back and Kotchman red hot in recent AAA and Big League games, who sits? My vote would be Finley, not sure he has all the scrappiness and savvyness needed. vr, Xei
2005-08-08 20:45:34
266.   ROC
Tomorrow's report from Henson says:

"Something that aggravates General Manager Paul DePodesta is the subpar Dodger on-base percentage, perhaps the statistic he values most."

Hmmm, .294 OBP in over 300 AB's...a storm's a brewin'?

2005-08-08 20:48:30
267.   Sam DC
154 Yakface, sorry you didn't get an answer (and I'm afraid "facts" and stuff like you're asking about is beyond my scope as a commenter) but ask again soon and I bet smart people will help you out.
2005-08-08 20:53:50
268.   Xeifrank
266. Storm a brewin? The Perfect Wave!? And a leadoff hitter with a .311 OBP leading off. Sheesh! vr, Xei
2005-08-08 22:31:11
269.   Benaiah
195 Instead of E-Jax refering to the bald headed bathroom cleaner, it could refer to the giagantic Greek who was a friend to Achilles.
2005-08-09 00:33:13
270.   bokonon42
154- I don't think anybody knows the answer to your questions. When DePo was on that talk radio show the other day, he wouldn't give the current payroll numbers. He doesn't want Scott Boras or any of the GMs to know what cards he's holding. Probably a good idea, but still irritating (a word Mr. Henson should learn; aggravating is not a synonym) for the rest of us.
2005-08-09 09:50:52
271.   Vishal
270. i think it is a synonym, actually. but even if you confine "aggravate" to just imply worse-making, it's entirely plausible to assume that depo is already feeling pretty frustrated about the performance of the dodgers, and the OBP issue is just another added source of annoyance.
2005-08-09 11:14:10
272.   Xeifrank
Tony Jackson's article on DePodesta and the Dodgers. He says "DePodesta's Stock is Slipping". Not a well organized article, it jumps around from topic to topic in mid paragraph, and even making some reference to team MVPs Jeff Kent and Jason Phillips.
vr, Xei
2005-08-09 11:14:25
273.   Xeifrank
and here's the link:
http://www2.dailynews.com/dodgers/ci_2923442
2005-08-09 11:25:41
274.   fanerman
Not a very well-written article. Just a rehash of past stuff. Though that's the first I've heard about Bradley.
2005-08-09 12:50:37
275.   Kayaker7
Wow. Phillips a co-MVP with Kent? LMAO. And Drew has been a bust because he is too passive? Drew would the one who's co-MVP if he didn't break his wrist. What planet is this Tony Jackson from? The amazing thing is, the way Tony Jackson thinks is probably darn close to the way Jim Tracy thinks.
2005-08-09 13:35:34
276.   FirstMohican
There is so much unsupported ramble in this article its maddening. Let me go ahead and try to support that claim:

That doesn't even count the four players on the disabled list J.D. Drew, Jose Valentin, Paul Bako and Kelly Wunsch whom DePodesta signed as free agents from other clubs.

Jose Valentin is currently on the DL?

That jumps to six if you count Adrian Beltre and Steve Finley, who have been disappointments for Seattle and the Angels, respectively.

...is followed by...

Finley was allowed to walk after the season.

...and...

The Dodgers this season have been about what they would have been last year without Beltre in the middle of the order.

So DePo should've manufactured a Beltre V 2004? I can see that...

Hee-Seop Choi, whom DePodesta acquired from Florida to be the Dodgers' power-hitting first baseman of the future, is maddeningly inconsistent and has been largely relegated to a pinch-hitting role.

A little brainstorming might lead to the possibility that his inconsistency stems from his role... hmmm!

Derek Lowe, despite a 3.95 ERA, has shown a tendency to crumble in difficult situations, a big reason why he is 8-11.

Ahh but earlier he said...

...Penny has a sub-.500 record, due mostly to a lack of run support.

Well according to ESPN, Lowe actually does have more run support... by 0.01 run per game. Penny 5.08, Lowe 5.09

The biggest bust of all, though, has been Drew, who has missed the past month with a broken left wrist.

Wonder if the Daily News would call Jackson a bust if he got hit on the wrist by a ball and couldn't write his columns?

Even before that, he was far too passive at the plate for a No. 3 hitter.

He had/has the highest OPS on the team.

It is worth noting Boras never could have wrangled such a generous contract for Drew anywhere else, and he couldn't have gotten it from the Dodgers had Beltre, also a Boras client, re-signed with the club.

Is that anything more than speculation?

Anyone else enjoy the article as much as I did? Thanks for posting it.

2005-08-09 15:28:08
277.   bokonon42
271- I take your point and with clear conscience disagree entirely. Aggravate must modify a malady, and what malady it modifies must be stated. Even if we assume it is more likely the case that DePo's irritation has been aggraveted than his blinding rage, his burgeoning necrophilia, or his bursitis, so what? If we are to infer whatever we find most likely to be the meaning the writer hopes to convey, he might as well write no more than: "You know what I mean." I wouldn't, actually, be opposed to Plaschke taking this to heart and writing nothing but it for the rest of the season.

I won't bring up what Kingsley Amis wrote of the usage of aggravate you're condoning (because I can't find the book) but he would have questioned your manhood.

2005-08-09 15:30:20
278.   bokonon42
There should have been some emoticon, on the order of 8^), at the end of that to prove it was a good-natured tease. Sorry.

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