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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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DePodesta and Tracy Talk - Separately - After Parting Ways
2005-10-03 20:06
by Jon Weisman

For Tuesday playoff chat, please go here.

* * *

Dodger general manager Paul DePodesta answered media questions at 8 p.m. following the announcement that the Dodgers and manager Jim Tracy had agreed to a mutual parting of the ways.

DePodesta and Tracy "couldn't quite get on the same page - that's the reason why," DePodesta said. It was "more broad" than personnel decisions," said DePodesta.

A reporter expressed surprise at the statement, because DePodesta had supported Tracy in the press up to now.

"Anyone who wears the Dodger uniform is going to get my full support," DePodesta replied.

"We certainly have spent a lot of time together in the last two months," he added, "even privately, to see if we could be eye to eye going forward, because I think we both realized how important that was going to be going forward for the organiziation."

The tone of the questioning to DePodesta was aggressive, if not hostile.

"We really, truly wanted to make it work - I think both of us did," DePodesta said. "Unfortunately, it hasn't."

Jim Tracy then spoke by phone.

"It was in both parties' best interest to part ways and move on due to philopsophical differences ... the personnel factor and the evaluation of those players," Tracy said.

Tracy went on to say - in sort of an earnest challenge - that observers would see in the coming years whose philosophy was superior.

"(It) will play itself out on the long haul," Tracy said. "To say that my feelings are correct or Paul's feelings are correct is wrong. How things played on the field will go a long way to determining (if) the philosophy is correct."

Tracy was not shy about touting his own record. The past four years showed "a lot there that worked," Tracy said.

Tracy indicated that 2006 did not enter into the discussion with DePodesta - apparently, hashing out the 2004-05 offseason and the 2005 season was enough to fill all the DePodesta-Tracy meetings. But the coming season was certainly on Tracy's mind - and pessimism about the season played a fundamental role in Tracy's demand for an extension.

"Between now and the end of 2006, did I feel I would be able to get the club back to where it was at the end of 2004? I knew there was a good possibility it would take a good deal longer than that," Tracy said. "I have some very strong ideas about what is necessary from a continuity standpoint. There are a lot of intangible things that I feel are strongly necessary."

Tracy at first said he would not be paid by the Dodgers for 2006, but then noted that he would be paid if he didn't find another job. Between the lines, he sounded calmly assured that he would be working next season.

The conclusion to part ways, as I've suggested in recent days and weeks, was sensible given the circumstances. Neither DePodesta nor Tracy are evil men. But their relationship was well beyond the point of workable differences.

The tone of some stories we will read in the papers tomorrow was suggested by the following question: "Is (managing the Dodgers) still a good job, under these conditions?"

The job offers a payroll of at least $80 million, some returning injured All-Stars, a rising general manager with another year's experience behind him, perhaps the best farm system in the game and three million fans attending each season. In return, all that is asked is that you pay some attention to what your boss is saying while trying to win.

To his credit, Tracy said "yes" to the question.

One small request to the media - when interviewing Dodger players for comment, don't just stick with guys like Eric Gagne, whom I love but who essentially owes a good portion of his livelihood to Tracy. Consider talking to those who might not be so enamored before determining that there was unanimous player support for Tracy. Maybe there was - or maybe players (other than Odalis Perez) would be too circumspect to say otherwise - but at least try to be fair.

Update: "I expect some columnists will spring to Tracy's defense," writes Kevin Roderick at L.A. Observed. "They hate to break in new guys. But, really, run-of-the-mill managers are expendable and highly replaceable. Like with U.S. president, at any given time there are dozens of qualified people who could do the job just fine. Why not get somebody who's in synch with the organization's strategy instead of at odds?"

Update 2: The Tracy Chronicles (thanks to Eric Enders for the link)

Update 3: Say it with me now - the new manager of the Dodgers should be Bob Loblaw.

* * *

Recent related entries:

September 30: Tracy Goes the Eric Karros Route
September 28: Release the Hounds
September 23: It Was Never a One-Year Vision - Don't Make It So
September 6: To All
June 6: Tracy and Me

Comments (471)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-10-03 20:18:19
1.   Bob Timmermann
Seemed as amicable as it could be for that sort of situation.
2005-10-03 20:19:11
2.   D4P
Does "more broad than personnel decisions" mean "small ball"?
2005-10-03 20:19:54
3.   DaveP
classy statement:

"Anyone who wears the Dodger uniform is going to get my full support," DePodesta replied.

2005-10-03 20:21:01
4.   bigcpa
Is this press conf still in progress? Donde?
2005-10-03 20:21:35
5.   natepurcell
i just heard of the good news, almost as beautiful as the sound of angels singing.

washington and bud black are named in the article as some choices. i assume Orel will be looked at as well.

2005-10-03 20:23:11
6.   FirstMohican
As quickly as locking myself out of my house and having to wait for my roommmate to return to let me in put me in a bad mood, this headline put me right back into a good one. =)
2005-10-03 20:23:54
7.   Steelyeri
I'm glad to hear it. Load off my chest so to speak. I guess all that "Disagreements are healthy and welcome" stuff was bologna. I'm sure the team will perform better with a more sabr friendly manager.
2005-10-03 20:27:44
8.   natepurcell
i assume the criteria for next dodger manager includes:
*history of working with young players. is a good teacher and patient.
*been around the game to command respect in the clubhouse. can be a leader that the young players can look up too and that the vets will respect
*be on the same page as the GM in terms in baseball philosophy. they dont have to agree on everything, but have to see eye to eye on the broader range of topics
*a respected person in the media, for PR purposes- ideally, someone who has a history of dodger tradition.
2005-10-03 20:27:48
9.   Steelyeri
I don't want Orel. While I was/am a big fan of his, I think he will have too much media support as a former Dodger great. He will probably have too much pride to just put out whatever lineup out there that Depo wants, Or the lineup that the numbers warrant.
2005-10-03 20:33:25
10.   Jon Weisman
4 -
2005-10-03 20:33:31
11.   DaveP
How about Fernando? He can help Billinglsey deal with the pressure of Bills-mania :)
2005-10-03 20:34:17
12.   John A
I like Orel, I just don't want him as the next Dodger manager. I think he has too much stature as a former star. That sounds strange, but his status might make it easier for him to start bucking Depo, too. Also, although Orel was a cerebral tactician as a pitcher, I've heard no evidence that he's bought into the overall Moneyball strategy.
2005-10-03 20:35:51
13.   Vishal
"It was in both parties' best interest to part ways and move on due to philopsophical differences ... the personnel factor and the evaluation of those

wow, that sounds like (to reduce the issue a little) it was basically tracy saying "either it's me, or it's choi & co., but not both of us", and depo chose choi (& co.)!!

2005-10-03 20:35:53
14.   Uncle Miltie
8- well, I know that 1,2, and 4 can be applied to Ron Washington. 3) I have no idea...and that's an important one.
2005-10-03 20:36:28
15.   natepurcell
well to only make it fair. angels stole scioscia from us, its only fair that we take bud black from them.
2005-10-03 20:37:15
16.   John A
An argument for Orel:having another high-profile laptop computer user in the organization might make Plaschke's head explode.
2005-10-03 20:37:51
17.   SiGeg
I think this must have been a very difficult situation for DePodesta this season, and I think he handled it well. It really sounds to me like he's genuinely treated Tracy with a great deal of respect, despite not being happy with him as a manager. He tried to work with him, gave him public support, and then did what he thought was best for the team in the end. Agree or disagree with his personnel moves, the way this has been handled makes it harder to criticize DePo for bringing nothing but computer skills to the job.

I guess all that "Disagreements are healthy and welcome" stuff was bologna.
Yeah, did anyone really think he meant that? Ok, well some of us worried. : )
But, I actually do hope that DePo wants a manager that brings skills that complement his own, not just a warm body. Getting a different perspective can actually be useful, as long as it's not actually undermining the big picture. (Apologies for the mixed metaphor.)

2005-10-03 20:39:10
18.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
IMO, this worked out about as well as we could've hoped. No ugly parting shots from either side, no airing of dirty laundry,
2005-10-03 20:40:12
19.   Vishal
[12] not if he buys into the philosophy. and i'd like to think that if he DOESN'T buy into it, he won't be hired in the first place.
2005-10-03 20:40:29
20.   808Bears
As we look at potential candidates for manager, I think that we need to be careful not to fall into the trap of viewing "Moneyball" in itself as a rigid philosophy. The most important characteristic that the new manager needs to have is that he and DePo are on the same page. If that is a strict, A's-style formula that most here are in favor of, fine, but ironically, it is the chemistry, so to speak, between manager and GM that is going to make the new hire succeed or fail.
2005-10-03 20:42:17
21.   DaveP
18 - not yet, at least. Doesn't sound like Depo is going to air anything, but Tracy is taking veiled shots even in his comments above. I suspect he'll come out with stronger statements in the coming weeks. Good riddance.
2005-10-03 20:43:02
22.   Bob Timmermann
The most dirty laundry came from the press conference when Plaschke, Simers, Modesti, and Dilbeck all were talking over an open mike waiting for Tracy to get on the phone.

Someone (I think it was Simers) who said that Tracy was the only respected person in the Dodgers organization and he was gone. Somebody else asked Tracy if anyone would want the job under the current situation. Tracy sounded like he was hesitating before answering, but he did say that it was a good job.

2005-10-03 20:46:15
23.   Bob Timmermann
Ricky Ledee quote from Henson's article:

"I loved playing for him," outfielder Ricky Ledee said. "He always put you in a position where you could succeed. He treats you like a man and he respects you as a player."

2005-10-03 20:46:31
24.   Eric Enders
I thought you guys might enjoy this cartoon I did... Jim Tracy's Dodger career, comic strip version:

For you non-TinyURL folks, remove the carriage returns:

2005-10-03 20:47:05
25.   FirstMohican
Just one last criticism of Tracy before I leave him alone for good... he said something about "components" that werent here "this year" that were there "last year." Well, if we rewind to the beginning ofl ast year when the Dodgers needed a big bat - remember Beltre was still in his underachieving stage - and Shawn Green actually came out in the media saying he'd be very unhappy if the team didn't add a bat. So I think, Tracy, that there were a few more unknowns going into 04 than 05.
2005-10-03 20:47:21
26.   molokai
How many successful pitching coaches have made excellent managers? I can think of many who failed but no one off the top of my head who has succeeded.

How many great pitchers have made excellent managers? I can think of many who failed but no one off the top of my head who has succeeded.

2005-10-03 20:48:00
27.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
20 - To expand upon that thought, it's crucial to note the so-called "Moneyball" philosophy means different things to different people.
Some take it as a snobbish rejection of "smallball;" i.e. no bunts or stolen bases in favor of station-to-station mashing.
Other believe it's about the importance of OBP and, to a lesser extent, SLG.
Finally, I believe the real point of Lewis' book, and of "Moneyball" overall, was that success could be found by exploiting market inefficiencies. Don't pay for what everyone else overvalues, and seek out what is ignored.
So, what's your take? More important, what's DePo's and how does it fit into building a winner in 2006?
2005-10-03 20:48:25
28.   Vaudeville Villain

Yeah, but who cares what they think. They're a square of crappy sports writing.

Anyway: Bud Black would not be a guy I would look at. Basically anyone who works at Anaheim I wouldn't bother with. Their philosophy does not mesh well with ours.

2005-10-03 20:48:26
29.   natepurcell
what would be the all star coaching staff? what happens to the other coaches? specifically, colby since i dont care for the others.. maybe except manny mota, he relates well to the latin players.
2005-10-03 20:50:47
30.   MikeB
Guess who?
"....the most important things for a manager is how well he works with his GM and the front office, and also how patient the organization wants to be."
Hint - he's a former manager now working as a TV commentator
2005-10-03 20:51:15
31.   Jon Weisman
Nate, Mota predates - and certainly transcends - Tracy's tenure as manager.
2005-10-03 20:51:38
32.   Vishal
[26] does lasorda count as a great manager?
2005-10-03 20:51:53
33.   Bob Timmermann
Walter Johnson and Bob Lemon are the only HOF pitchers who have good managerial careers. Lemo did lead the Yankees to a WS title in 1978.

Johnson's teams in Washington and Cleveland were pretty good, but ultimately coudln't get over the top.

2005-10-03 20:51:56
34.   regfairfield
23 Ironically, the place where Tracy put Ledee the most, left field, was where Ledee did by far his worst work.
2005-10-03 20:52:40
35.   Vaudeville Villain

Kevin Kennedy?

2005-10-03 20:53:48
36.   Eric Enders
"does lasorda count as a great manager?"

Trivia Question. What manager has the worst career winning percentage in L.A. Dodger history?

Answer: It's not Walter Alston. Or Jim Tracy. Or Davey Johnson. Or Bill Russell, or Glenn Hoffman. Figure it out from there...

2005-10-03 20:55:01
37.   King of the Hobos
23 Ledee, unlike Choi, can succeed when "put in a position to succeed." Otherwise known as pinch hitting
2005-10-03 20:55:11
38.   808Bears
27 Thanks. That's the main idea that I wanted to get across, but put much more clearly.
2005-10-03 20:56:15
39.   Vishal
well, it was a serious question :)

i mean, .526 isn't anything to brag about... but he's got the aura nonetheless.

2005-10-03 20:56:46
40.   Steelyeri
Anyone want to take a stab at Plaschke and/or Simers' Headlines tommorow?
2005-10-03 20:56:47
41.   MikeB
Yep. Kennedy wrote that back in June of this year answering a fan's question about how to build a "small-market" team. Guess those kinds of managerial qualities are required no matter the size of the market.
I'm not advocating Kennedy, but I do hope and believe DePodesta WILL hire someone in tune with his plan. As Ken Kesey put it "... you're either on the bus or off the bus."
2005-10-03 20:57:13
42.   Mark
Steve, where are you?
2005-10-03 20:57:22
43.   King of the Hobos
30 Can DePo just tell him no so he will leave?
2005-10-03 20:57:27
44.   Screwgie
This whole thing makes me wonder why Depodesta didn't put his own guy in the manager's chair from the beginning. There's obviously been alot of media speculation over the past two years about supposed Depo mistakes like not signing Beltre or giving Lowe a bad contract or whatever; but the only big mistake I see Depo making is not bringing in a more saber-minded manager from the get go.

I guess he's found some people he could work with from previous regimes in Kim Ng and Logan White, so there is some credence to retaining experienced personel. However, it is becoming aparent that the field manager is perhaps more important than Depo initially realized... maybe even crucial if Depo wants to turn this team around in one year.

Jim Tracy was Depo's real rookie GM mistake, IMHO.

2005-10-03 20:58:05
45.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
38 - I honed that statement during fights with Backlasher over at BTF. Whatever you take Moneyball to mean, he'll argue against the point you're not making. Frustrating as all get-out.
2005-10-03 20:59:46
46.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
44 - This whole thing makes me wonder why Depodesta didn't put his own guy in the manager's chair from the beginning.
DePo didn't get there in time. Spring Training was just a few weeks away when he took over.
2005-10-03 21:00:07
47.   Vishal
[45] people don't use the phrase "as all get-out" nearly often enough anymore
2005-10-03 21:00:20
48.   Jon Weisman
44 - As DePodesta said tonight, he was hired in February 2004. That was his beginning. The idea that DePodesta should have fired Tracy the moment pitchers and catchers were reporting in 2004 is ludicrous. And the idea that DePodesta should have made a change after a division title equally so.
2005-10-03 21:00:43
49.   Kayaker7
I don't know. I feel happy that Tracy is finally gone. Something I've been waiting for for three months. But still, I'm a little miffed by his parting comments. He said that he asked for the extension because he was pessimistic about next year, but that he felt he could get the Dodgers to the success of 2004 with more time. First of all, his pessimism is an obvious indication that he simply is not buying what Depo is selling. Second, what success of 2004? The division title was nice, but getting walloped by the Cardinals in the first round is not what you would call an ideal to strive for.
2005-10-03 21:02:44
50.   MikeB
Does it really matter? The Dodgers are moving forward.
Plaschke and Simers will climb back on the bandwagon at the next winning streak. Plaschke will then write something uplifting and weepy about Choi and Kent and Navarro. Simers will take credit for inspiring the boys to victory.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-10-03 21:02:51
51.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
47 - Boy howdy!
2005-10-03 21:06:05
52.   Bob Timmermann
Steve's kids are poking him and asking "Why is Daddy rolling all over the floor giggling?" "Daddy's drooling!"
2005-10-03 21:06:32
53.   Sushirabbit
I imagine Steve is enjoying a frost beverage or two. :-)

One thing that's clear to me is that if the McCourts don't ante up with the $100 mil, then those of us who gave them the benefit of the doubt have been had. The organization should have a wad of cash to spend, and market inefficiencies or not, we gotta get better pitching.

I'd say I don't care who the manager is, but there are alot of losers out there lurking in the shadows. Some part of can see Piniella leading the third ring of the circus...

2005-10-03 21:09:23
54.   Jon Weisman
Kevin Roderick at L.A. Observed has a measured post - I say that not just because he provides a generous link here and elsewhere.

2005-10-03 21:10:10
55.   MikeB
53 - If spending $100 mil is all it takes, then we should have won World Series with Brown, Dreifort, and the rest of Malone's golden posse.
It's not how much you spend, it's how well you spend it.
2005-10-03 21:11:17
56.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
53 - I've heard many critics of the McCourts throw out that $100-million number. To them I ask, what's the point of spending money just to spend it? If the team can build a competitive roster for less, isn't that a good thing? Or should we hold them to the $100 million, no matter what?
2005-10-03 21:11:23
57.   Vaudeville Villain

It also might have something to do with Tracy being a little more egregious this year with his strategy than in previous.

Before this year, Tracy had teams filled with "scrappyball" guys, so when one guy played over another it wasn't as bad.

For example, playing Alex Cora over Jolbert Cabrera two seasons ago and Alex Cora over Jose Hernandez last season wasn't as bad as what happened this year.

This year we had Phillips over Choi, Phillips over Saenz, Edwards over Perez, Robles over Perez, Izturis over Robles, and Repko getting play as anything other than a pinch-runner.

2005-10-03 21:11:31
58.   FirstMohican
I find it odd that nobody has mentioned Plaschke as a possible Tracy replacement.

Anyone else think that the media will portray this as DePo making a rookie mistake of failing to keep the star manager happy with an extension?

What a great night.

2005-10-03 21:12:31
59.   dzzrtRatt
Moneyball and sabremetrics come in for a lot of criticism, mostly from people who don't understand either. My sense is that no philosophical systems fully describes how the world works, so a good manager and a good GM has to have a good grasp of the most relevant measurements as well as an intelligent 'gut,' and an intuitive grasp of what motivates different people.

I don't know if Tracy had either--with all due respect to those who respected him so highly.

Even if one thinks sabremetrics are baloney, I'd like to know what theory puts Jason Phillips at first base, ever. BS-ball? You're-my-friend-ball? Good luck Pittsburgh.

2005-10-03 21:14:16
60.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
57 - Cora/Hernandez was a straight-up platoon, was it not?
2005-10-03 21:15:13
61.   Eric Enders
I liked Kevin Roderick's post a lot. (And not just because he made the same index finger joke I made in #24)
2005-10-03 21:15:42
62.   Eric Enders
2005-10-03 21:15:46
63.   Nolan
Agree with the above: I love Orel but his stature with the fans is just too great. At the end of the day, a manager works for a GM and, when one of the two senses that the power dynamic is otherwise, things breakdown.
2005-10-03 21:16:27
64.   Bob Timmermann
Cora/Hernandez didn't become a strict platoon until the second half of the season when Cora started to slump.

Hernandez played several other positions: shortstop, third base, left field.

2005-10-03 21:16:36
65.   Vaudeville Villain

Yes, but it probably shouldn't have been.

2005-10-03 21:18:37
66.   natepurcell
BAs top 20 southern league is up. i am really shocked at the rankings in the top. only 5 suns made the list :(

surprisingly, no loney.

2005-10-03 21:18:41
67.   Screwgie
"The idea that DePodesta should have fired Tracy the moment pitchers and catchers were reporting in 2004 is ludicrous."

Managers are fired all the time: early season, mid season, late season. Mccourt interviewd Dan Evans for his own job during spring training... so anything can happen. And while it may be unlikely, certainly it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

And perhaps entertaining the idea is not enough to label this humble poster's opinion as "ludicrous" on your fine blog, which I love, btw. : )

2005-10-03 21:19:35
68.   molokai
Hoffman/Russel/Johnson all had small sample sizes when compared to the tenure of Alston/Lasorda/Tracy so it is not a very fair comparison. What Lasorda does have is two World Championships. Having lived through his tenure he was the King of LA in the late 70's but most serious baseball fans were turned off by him as we all are with someone who has been around two long. Familiarity breed's contempt. They are always asking for Bobby Cox's head but I'll take him in a second.
2005-10-03 21:19:37
69.   D4P
2005-10-03 21:20:05
70.   Bob Timmermann
Hernandez slugged .627 against lefties in 2004.
2005-10-03 21:21:52
71.   Eric Enders
"They are always asking for Bobby Cox's head but I'll take him in a second."

Is that a joke? I've never heard of nor spoken to any Braves fan who has anything but glowing praise for Bobby Cox.

2005-10-03 21:24:18
72.   Kayaker7
67 I don't think you're ludicrous, Screwgie. ;-)
2005-10-03 21:26:19
73.   Bob Timmermann
I demand a cut from the Tracy Chronicles!
2005-10-03 21:27:02
74.   Bob Timmermann
Managers are very rarely fired during spring training.

You have to be Tim Johnson to pull that off.

2005-10-03 21:28:16
75.   molokai
My brother lives in Atlanta and used to work for the Braves. His office used to overlook left field. Believe me, every time they lose in the playoffs the calls for his head increase by the same idiot radio callers who dot this land everywhere.
2005-10-03 21:29:02
76.   blue22
74 - Did he get fired?

I thought he re-enlisted.

2005-10-03 21:31:19
77.   King of the Hobos
So, what's Steve doing now?

And I feel bad for Brad Eldred. Who knows who could bat instead of him wit hTracy in Pittsburgh. And I see Ty Wiggington getting at least 400 ABs. For the sake of Pittsburgh's sanity, they need to avoid Tracy...

2005-10-03 21:31:24
78.   Kayaker7
In the meantime, for all the speculation, the A's offered Macha a new contract.
2005-10-03 21:32:15
79.   molokai
That was a loaded league. Eight of those 20 saw some major league time and you could make a case that around 10 of those players might become impact players. To get 5 out of those 20 is still quite a coup.
2005-10-03 21:32:44
80.   blue22
77 - Funny. Ty Wiggington is the happiest man in America tonight.
2005-10-03 21:34:59
81.   Eric Enders
And Craig Wilson is the saddest. Great hitter, bad defense at a variety of positions.... well, you had a nice little career, Craig.
2005-10-03 21:36:00
82.   Bob Timmermann
There's a new TV series that has Paula Marshall in it.

How many more weeks will it last?

2005-10-03 21:36:13
83.   blue22
81 - Actually he'd be a nice fit here as a backup catcher, RH-1B to replace Phillips.
2005-10-03 21:38:08
84.   Telemachos
The Times has a poll up... currently it's running Pro-Tracy/Anti-Depo (73.5-26.5%) with 502 total responses.
2005-10-03 21:38:14
85.   Kayaker7
In spite of all the predictions, I think Tracy can succeed in Pittsburgh. It seems like Jimbo lost all reason this year, perhaps blinded by the rage he felt at the loss of Lo Duca and Beltre. I'm even beginning to think that Choi would have gotten a fair shake if he had come to the Dodgers under different circumstances. Perhaps if Choi were older, and spent longer periods in the minors, so that Jimmy could feel like he "discovered" a hidden talent, like I'm sure he feels about Lo Duca.
2005-10-03 21:40:06
86.   Bob Timmermann
I still think that if Charlie Dressen can get fired after going 105-49, Jim Tracy can be shown the door too.
2005-10-03 21:40:17
87.   Eric Enders
Maybe we should have traded Tracy to Pgh for Craig Wilson. If Lou Piniella is worth Randy Winn, Tracy is probably worth Craig Wilson.
2005-10-03 21:40:49
88.   Eric Enders
They got the ax for the same reason, too -- asking for a multi-year contract.
2005-10-03 21:41:46
89.   Romyrick
Before the "class" word gets thrown around in a certain LA newspaper tommorow morning for a certain someone who really doesnt deserve it, i'd like to make an observation.

Is there anyone more classy than Paul Depodesta?

Mr. Depo always talks as if he's in front of a parole board.

2005-10-03 21:42:45
90.   Bob Timmermann

I assume you mean not like Charles Manson or Sirhan Sirhan?

2005-10-03 21:43:14
91.   Telemachos
89 Perhaps because when he's in front of the LA media, it's like being in front of a firing squad. :)
2005-10-03 21:46:01
92.   natepurcell
hey jon, link that poll in your post. so all the pro depo supporters can vote :)

because im sure most pro depo guys dont read the stupid times.

2005-10-03 21:46:19
93.   FirstMohican
I find it funny that while Henson of LAT acknowledges that the Dodgers and Tracy call this a parting of ways, whoever put the internet poll up decided that it was the Dodgers who were tossing Tracy aside:

"Do you agree with the Dodgers' decision not to bring back Manager Jim Tracy?"

2005-10-03 21:47:27
94.   molokai
Brad Eldred is not the only Pirate in danger.
Craig Wilson - good OBP/above avg power/k's alot/not very athletic

Craig Wilson is going to make 4 Million this year and I expect the Pirates will want to dump him. Maybe we can trade Jason Philips for him and reunite him with JT. I'm going to get alot of flack for promoting Craig Wilson so much this offseason but I think whoever snaps him up is going to be very happy next summer. It would not shock me at all for him to return to his 2002-2004 level of around 260/350/490. He mashes LHP the way Werth was supposed to. Werth is cheaper but only has 3 months of success while Wilson has had 3 years until this injury plagued season.

An outfield of Wilson/Drew/Wilkerson would be howled at by the media but would get on base at an excellent clip and provide enough power to get the job done. JMO

2005-10-03 21:48:02
95.   Jon Weisman
67 - I meant nothing personal. But I can't think of the last time a manager was fired in February. It would have seemed premature - both for its timing and because of the idea that Tracy had been considered a Strat-o-Matic, if not sabermetric, managerl.
2005-10-03 21:49:07
96.   blue22
92 - Time to take the power back, gents.

2005-10-03 21:49:24
97.   Jonathan
LA Times poll (& article):
2005-10-03 21:49:39
98.   Bob Timmermann
RIP Nipsey Russell
2005-10-03 21:49:40
99.   Eric Enders
managerl - /n./ 1. A skipper who believes in the soothing powers of pitching, defense, and three-run homers.
2005-10-03 21:49:47
100.   Jonathan
seconds late.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-10-03 21:49:49
101.   molokai
Didn't mean to dup your post. I was checking stats and just posted and didn't see yours until after I posted.

I think he'll be happy because he's certain to be traded. The Pirates aren't going to carry his contract in 2006.

2005-10-03 21:50:31
102.   Jon Weisman
82 - I watched the first two episodes. It has a good time slot, a decent albeit somewhat tired cast, and ex-Frasier writers (haven't decided whether that's good or bad). I predict it lasts the season, but I won't be watching - even for my heroine Paula.

Bring back "Cupid!"

2005-10-03 21:50:53
103.   Brendan
Why not Glenn Hoffman as manager? If he and Depo can come to agreement on philosophy I think he might be a good candidate. He kind of had the rug pulled out from under him the first time he managed. He didn't do a bad job in a tough situation before(Russell firing). I hope Tracy finds a job though. he seems like a nice guy, but I think he fell in love with the newspaper articles about himself.
2005-10-03 21:52:03
104.   Bob Timmermann
There have been four managers fired during spring training:
Phil Cavaretta by the Cubs in 1954
Alvin Dark by the Padres in 1978
Tim Johnson by the Blue Jays in 1999
Joe Kerrigan by the Red Sox in 2002
2005-10-03 21:52:17
105.   Jon Weisman
98 - Damn. This calls for a sad poem and a game of $25,000 Pyramid.
2005-10-03 21:52:23
106.   Brendan

Only if wilson grows his hair back out. he stunk with short hair

2005-10-03 21:58:46
107.   Bob Timmermann
Paula Marshall's series "Hidden Hills" was weird because it had black characters named Timmerman.

The number of African-Americans named Timmerman in America is probably close to zero.

2005-10-03 21:58:57
108.   molokai
Didn't Earl Weaver spawn anyone from his managerial days like a Rick Dempsey or maybe even Eddie Murray? Really piss off the media folks by bring Steady Eddy in. Just kidding but wouldn't TJ blow a cork.

Voted 3 times using 3 different browsers and were up to 28.7. I don't normally do this kind of thing but if you wanted JT fired you should vote in favor it. Otherwise it could be lower then 20% by tomorrow.

2005-10-03 22:00:02
109.   confucius
I want Pinella so bad. I hate these windbags(Tracy) and yes men (Hoffman). This is LA. We should be able to have a top notch Manager.
2005-10-03 22:01:35
110.   Bob Timmermann
Ray Miller, Weaver's pitching coach, had a turn as manager. Or should I say turns. With both Minnesota and Baltimore. He was 266-297.

His replacement in Minnesota, Tom Kelly, won the World Series in his first full season.

2005-10-03 22:02:49
111.   Eric Enders
Wait, I thought the problem was that we NEED a yes man.
2005-10-03 22:03:30
112.   Eric Enders
I've been listening to suggestions for new Dodger manager for several months now, and have yet to hear a good one. This is gonna be a tough search...
2005-10-03 22:03:53
113.   Louis in SF
The question I continue to ask about Tracy isthe issue of Frank McCourt and the resources behind the organization. Did Tracy feel he was hung out to dry when the Dodgers did not pick up players by trade, once the injuries hit. The late negotiations that went know where with Weaver?

Finally, while I had many issues with some of Tracy's decisions, as good as the Suns seem to be, how many of them will really be ready next year? While the young Dodgers of the 70's became strength of those teams it took them a few years to get it together..At the end of the day having DePo find his own manager will be a good thing, a pitching coach able to communicate with young people will be just as important.

2005-10-03 22:04:24
114.   Bob Timmermann
Lou Piniella will lead a good team to a good record and a bad team to a worse record.
2005-10-03 22:05:06
115.   Jon Weisman
Kevin Kennedy really is the latter-day Jeff Torborg. I don't know that I have ever heard him give a commentary without reminding the viewer of his role with the Dodgers or as a major league manager.
2005-10-03 22:05:29
116.   LAT
From Hensen at LAT:

DePodesta's thinking changed at that point. He had been comfortable with Tracy remaining at the helm through the last year of his contract, but was unwilling to commit beyond 2006.

This suggests that if Tracy had not asked for the extension there would be some very unhappy people here in 2006.

I wonder if Hensen's references to Washington and Black as replacements are from his visits here or he has another source for that speculation. Other than DT, I have not seen those names together anywhere esle

2005-10-03 22:06:26
117.   molokai
Ray Miller another excellent pitching coach = terrible manager

I would never hire a pitching coach. Sorry Orel.

What's Bobby Grich doing these days:)

2005-10-03 22:06:29
118.   Fallout
103. Brendan
Why not Glenn Hoffman as manager?

I think that he would be a good fit but I'm sure that DePodesta does not want anyone around from the old regime. Hoffman would probably follow Depo's lead which will be the number one requirement.

2005-10-03 22:06:32
119.   confucius
114. Didn't he lead the Mariners to a 118 win season?
2005-10-03 22:06:59
120.   Jon Weisman
112 - I'm sure DePodesta is much more qualified and has much more that's tangible to go on than any of us. It's not for me to worry about.

Of course, I'm rarely one to play the Hot Stove game in general. Vladimir Guerrero is pretty much the only strong statement for a player acquisition I've ever made since beginning Dodger Thoughts.

2005-10-03 22:07:22
121.   Vaudeville Villain

I never thought of it that way, but yeah, a yes man is exactly what we need.

2005-10-03 22:08:14
122.   Jon Weisman
116 - The idea (I don't know if it's real) of Bud Black is not a DT invention. And anyone with Oakland ties has probably been specuated about since DePo was hired.
2005-10-03 22:08:32
123.   confucius
I hate Kevin Kennedy. I certainly hope he's not in consideration. He knows nothing about baseball.
2005-10-03 22:08:44
124.   molokai
I think the media is making up Black and moneyball readers are making up Ron Washington because of his past relationship with Depo. In reality, neither is probably a candidate.
2005-10-03 22:09:13
125.   Screwgie
95 No problemo : )

"It would have seemed premature - both for its timing and because of the idea that Tracy had been considered a Strat-o-Matic, if not sabermetric, managerl."

I think you're right actually. I guess I was just a little frustrated this season with Depo's "apparent" inaction in the face of Tracy's moves.

And I didn't mean to sound as if Depo should have fired Tracy exactly when he took over. There should have been an evaluation period, but I wonder if two years is a little too much time to decide that the manager is not on the same page. But as you pointed out, maybe the division title cemented Tracy as the manager despite Depo's misgivings.

Still, there was a nice ten game losing streak around May in 2004 that would have been the perfect opportunity for Depo to cut Tracy loose. But to Depo's credit, he valued stability. Ironic considering Tracy's veiled criticism of Depo today.

2005-10-03 22:11:16
126.   molokai
and a 1st round exit. Nothing about Lou suggests he would be successfull in LA working with Depo. For better or worse he is his own man.
2005-10-03 22:11:17
127.   LAT
109. I only want Piniella if we re-sign Milton Bradley. Watching those two heavyweights out-doing each other in the infintile, temper tantrum competition would really be something.
2005-10-03 22:11:51
128.   das411
Has anybody heard mention of Terry Pendleton anywhere? I know, this board would probably explode if he were brought would be almost like seeing an MVP winner with the Giants wearing Dodger blue :)

But seriously, he interviewed for and damn near won the Philly job in 2004. Young guy, playoff experience, has done a decent job as (iirc) Atlanta's hitting coach the last couple of years.

He might actually be a better fit for Tampa Bay (teach BJ Upton how to field, keep Delmon in line), but he is a name that might be worth keeping in mind before the Ron Washington Bidding War begins.

2005-10-03 22:14:12
129.   molokai
You may not think he would make a good manager but to say that someone with over 30 years experience knows nothing about baseball is "ludicrous".
2005-10-03 22:15:21
130.   Eric Enders
Perhaps a better way to phrase that would have been, "Kevin Kennedy knows a lot of things about baseball, but they're all wrong."
2005-10-03 22:16:13
131.   confucius
126. What suggests he would be unsuccessful? Just because he has a pulse does not mean he is incapable of getting along with a GM. He's mamaged teams that essentially relied on home runs and OBP. Isn't that what the Dodgers are?
2005-10-03 22:18:00
132.   Vaudeville Villain
I'm also an emphatic "no" on Kevin Kennedy. I try to watch as little of the Southern California Sports Report as possible, but from what I've seen on television, he seemed very much like Tracy.

I recall a lame moneyball-smallball comparison they did earlier in the season where Kennedy said something roughly along the lines of, "You MUST be able to bunt and move runners along to win consistently in the National League." I'm not sure if this was before or after the bunt doomed us so many games this year.

He did seem aware that the Dodgers were built differently than the Angels though, unlike Tracy. I believe he stated that the Dodgers were not a running and hit-and-run team, which is something Tracy either never figured out, or didn't want to admit.

2005-10-03 22:18:11
133.   Kayaker7
Just voted on the LAT site. Gawd, it's easy to vote 25 times when you use Mozilla. ;-)
2005-10-03 22:18:14
134.   Eric Enders
The main problem I see is that Piniella likes the GM to be his subordinate rather than his superior. It would be the Tracy problem magnified x10.
2005-10-03 22:18:28
135.   Bob Timmermann
Actually the 2001 Mariners made it to the ALCS.
2005-10-03 22:19:16
136.   confucius
129. I was exagerrating.
2005-10-03 22:20:05
137.   Eric Enders
If I had 1,000 hands, I still wouldn't have enough to count all the stupid things I've heard Kevin Kennedy say over the years. Please, dear god, no.
2005-10-03 22:20:36
138.   Vaudeville Villain
Let's not forget that Lou Piniella almost started his relievers and brought his starters in later in the game. I thought that would've been a masterstroke. Did he actually implement it?
2005-10-03 22:21:50
139.   Eric Enders
Piniella also has a Dusty Baker-like veteran fetish, and is very hard on young players. Don't hire him if you plan on the future being Billingsley, LaRoche, etc.
2005-10-03 22:24:44
140.   molokai
131Lou might be successfull here but I think he wants to stay on the East Coast and for a team that will be in contention. Didn't he agree to manage in TB because it was home. I would be surprised if he even interviewed for this job but it would be exciting. I've been a Lou fan ever since I read Ball Four way back before most of you were born.
2005-10-03 22:24:56
141.   confucius
134. No because Tracy's opinions on personnel and in game philosophy were different than depo's. I feel that Pinella would be more aligned. That's not to say that Pinella is a yes man. I think if they agree on issues there does not have to be a power struggle. Also, Depo may feel more inclined to loosen the reigns with a more experienced manager such as Lou than he would with Tracy.
2005-10-03 22:25:04
142.   LAT
So now what? What if the Dodgers don't win the divison in 2006? For Depo's supporters, Tracy has been the source of most things wrong with the Dodgers. Assumming the injuries are not as bad next year (how could they be) can it be anyone's fault but Depo's, if they don't win. It seems like the last excuse has been erased and Depo's full reign begins now. Here's wishing you good luck, Paul.
2005-10-03 22:25:12
143.   das411
Who had that link to LaRoche's blog? Maybe there is somebody he wants that none of us are thinking of.
2005-10-03 22:27:36
144.   confucius
140. Yeah, I doubt he wants to come to L.A. Still, I really think he is the best manager available.
2005-10-03 22:27:58
145.   molokai
To bad Jimmy Wynn is not doing anything to make him a candidate. Now that was a player who understood the benefit of the base on balls. Next to Piazza, he is my 2nd favorite Dodger.
2005-10-03 22:28:41
146.   Brendan
118. Fallout
103. Brendan
Why not Glenn Hoffman as manager?
I think that he would be a good fit but I'm sure that DePodesta does not want anyone around from the old regime. Hoffman would probably follow Depo's lead which will be the number one requirement.

Hoffman is not really part of the Tracy regime. He was there before Tracy and was kept on the staff.

2005-10-03 22:28:51
147.   confucius
The third base situations might even be more important than the Managerial situation.
2005-10-03 22:30:02
148.   molokai
Your right, from this point on it is a brave new world. Let us hope we see more Navarro's then Ericksons.
2005-10-03 22:31:00
149.   confucius
146. Yeah but he's just going to get hit in the head again with a line drive. Then the Dodgers are really screwed.
2005-10-03 22:32:21
150.   Eric Enders
Jimmy Wynn was once stabbed in the stomach by his wife in a fight.

Which makes him a better candidate for DBacks manager than Dodgers, methinks.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-10-03 22:32:40
151.   Steve
The mint juleps were a bit sweeter today.
2005-10-03 22:32:58
152.   Bob Timmermann
Yes, 2006 will be DePodesta's responsibility, but you don't take a job like his if you aren't willing to take on the responsibility. That's why you ask to be put in charge. Because you think you can make a difference. Because you think you can succeed. Wouldn't you fear having a GM who has afraid to take any chances or responsibility?
2005-10-03 22:33:25
153.   natepurcell
Vladimir Guerrero is pretty much the only strong statement for a player acquisition I've ever made since beginning Dodger Thoughts.

and we were so close :(

2005-10-03 22:33:55
154.   bojangles
Not sure the choice of mgr is all that important; for now, this is a GM-driven model.
Jon: Extolling the press to be fair after you have described the so-far-failed young GM (won with the previously discredited guy's guys, then did all kinds of wondrously record-setting negative things with his guys - and I'm one who agreed with him the roster had to be radically re-done; it was the re-active and poisonous way he did it that troubled me last winter and spring - albeit, with a manager who did not play by Boy Genius' new rules) as "up-and-coming" is an interesting bit of legerdemain. He was as you describe two years ago, with some partial credit from the A's ongoing miracle. I would describe him now as the "sliding sideways and
downward young GM" having witnessed the bounty of his work. But then, again, many of you here would seem to hold the folks who keep rebuilding where there are frequent floods and almost annual brush fires and mud slides blameless when the new homes are destroyed just like the old ones (and you and I get to help pay for that density). I am from a tribe that finds that thought-process a might quirky, and troubling long-range, to say the least...So for Boy Genius, previously broken ballplayers getting predictably broken again and again and again
is just more proof the role Lady Luck plays when Occam's Law and a ton of flesh and bone and blood evidence threatens to overwhelm your fancies; lavished pitching journeymen continuing to make journeymen's honorable contributions when the team needs a genuine One and a genuine Two is the fault of the journeymen, and not the Boy Lavisher....Slick.
Very slick. And very transparent. And unconvincing as can be. Mercifully quick here and gone, Blue guys and gals. Be well, each and every one.
2005-10-03 22:34:18
155.   confucius
Are you people picking a team to root for or just one to root against? I'll root for anyone over the Angels, but I also don't want to see anything good happen to LaRussa.
2005-10-03 22:37:47
156.   Eric Enders
The "so-far-failed" GM has a 50% success rate at making the playoffs, and has already won more playoff games than his three predecessors combined.

Don't you hate it when facts get in the way of a good rant, though?

2005-10-03 22:38:07
157.   Ken Arneson
Even if the A's offered Macha a contract, the Dodgers still might pry him away with a bigger offer. But I think he'll stay in Oakland.

As for Ron Washington, if he gets a manager job, I think it'll be in Tampa. He's a great teacher of young players. The Tampa roster plays right into his strengths.

Washington has the Bull Durham cliche routine down pretty good, but handling the media is probably not gonna be one of his bigger strengths. In that respect, Tampa would fit him better, too, compared to a huge media market like L.A. This probably wouldn't matter much if the GM was media savvy and could take some of the heat off the manager, but handling the media is not DePodesta's strength, either. The Dodgers need someone in leadership who gives good sound bites. Otherwise, the media will just eat that whole front office for lunch every day.

If the Dodgers want to hire a yes-man from the A's organization, I'd put my money on Bob Geren.

2005-10-03 22:38:46
158.   Bob Timmermann

What the heck was that about?

2005-10-03 22:38:57
159.   Vaudeville Villain
I'm rooting for Houston because I despise them the least.
2005-10-03 22:40:19
160.   Bob Timmermann
I'm probably rooting for the Angels to play the Cardinals.

Sorry if that offends anyone's sensibilities. I really don't mind the Angels.

2005-10-03 22:41:16
161.   Eric Enders
Respectfully disagree with your last 2 grafs.

I think DePodesta is excellent at handling the media. The fact that he was basically tarred and feathered before taking office is not something he could have done anything about. His actual interactions with the media and sound bites have been excellent, IMO.

And if it's true that Washington works well with young players, he'd be an ideal fit here. The Dodgers will probably be one of the youngest teams in the NL for the foreseeable future.

2005-10-03 22:41:56
162.   molokai
I'm hoping for an Angel/Cardinal world series:)
2005-10-03 22:42:20
163.   Vaudeville Villain

Paragraphs. Use 'em.


Was Tracy good for a sound bite, though? I guess media members liked him caused he asked himself questions, and they didn't have to think of any, but Tracy was no Herm Edwards, either.

I think a media friendly manager is low priority.

2005-10-03 22:43:16
164.   Eric Enders
I don't think even proper paragraphs could fix #154......
2005-10-03 22:43:26
165.   confucius
159. Me too. I really hate all the teams this year.
2005-10-03 22:46:45
166.   molokai
Wynn/Puckett/Milton - is that enough for a trend. Momma don't let your baby's marry centerfielders.
2005-10-03 22:47:05
167.   DaveP
I must be in a state of post Tracy bliss. #154 only made me smile as I read it.
2005-10-03 22:49:05
168.   LAT
162. I am also for the Angel-Cards series. Red Sox-Cards would be ok as well.
No Yanks or Stros in the fall classic. No no no! White Sox and Braves are benign.
2005-10-03 22:49:44
169.   confucius
I hate the Angels primarily for their announcers(that does not mean i'm giving their fans any immunities). Honestly, I hate Rex Hudler and Steve Physioc more than I hate racism and violence. I live in Orange County and one day will not because of that god-forsaken baseball team and its apologists.
2005-10-03 22:50:51
170.   DaveP
I'm comfortable with Depo sorting through his internal list and selecting the best manager to implement his plan. Wouldn't be surprised if I've never heard of whoever he picks and it wouldn't bother me if that's the case. I'll just be happy we have a GM and manager who are presumably on the same page. Can't wait for '06.

when do pitchers and catchers report?

2005-10-03 22:52:12
171.   confucius
170. That's probably in all likelihood what will happen.
2005-10-03 22:52:12
172.   Eric Enders
Frankly, it would bother me if I HAVE heard of the next manager.
2005-10-03 22:52:41
173.   SiGeg
Sometimes I root for teams I hate in the early rounds, just so I'll have a stronger rooting interest when the WS comes around. I wouldn't mind the Yankees making the WS, for example, just because I'd love to root against them. (The "risk," of course, is that they could end up winning the whole thing.)

I'm going to root for the Cards. I usually like to see the NL win...unless the Giants or Braves are playing. (I hated it when the Yankees and Braves met in the WS. Ugh.)

2005-10-03 22:52:59
174.   Bob Timmermann
Being a media-friendly manager isn't a high priority for the Dodgers. Lasorda was and he's been the only in L.A. history. Alston, Russell, Hoffman, Johnson, and Tracy don't exactly turn the world on with a smile.

In the L.A. market, which coaches are media-friendly? Pete Carroll too a certain extent. Is Phil Jackson media friendly? Or is he just above it all?

The LA Times sports section is still nothing like the back pages of the NY Tabloids.

2005-10-03 22:57:26
175.   LAT
174. Bob maybe the Clippers coach is media friendly, but I can't remember whether they have a coach yet or who he is. I guess that answers the question. How media friendly can he be if I can't remember his name.
2005-10-03 22:57:34
176.   Eric Enders
"In the L.A. market, which coaches are media-friendly?"

Scioscia. I think Jackson is, too. Tim Floyd?

2005-10-03 22:59:26
177.   Vaudeville Villain

Phil Jackson uses the media to barb his players, but I wouldn't say he's media-friendly. Pete Carrol's probably a good call as being media-friendly, but I think I recall that Plaschke was NOT a fan of his when he first started.

Ahh, Bill. Foiled again.

2005-10-03 23:00:45
178.   Bob Timmermann
Mike Dunleavy coaches the Clippers. Tim Floyd hasn't coached a game yet at USC. I can't imagine that anyone has an opinion of him. Floyd's "predecessor", Rick Majerus, would have been media-friendly.

Still, in NY, Torre and Randolph do commercials for sizeable concerns. But the best Scioscia can get is a commercial gig with an electronics store in La Habra.

2005-10-03 23:02:08
179.   SiGeg
174 However, this is LA, so I can imagine the media having other kinds of roles in all of this. Maybe McCourt can make a deal to choose the new manager through a reality TV series: The Apprentice, Paul DePodesta Edition. It could help raise some revenue.
2005-10-03 23:04:51
180.   Bob Timmermann
Bill Plaschke 9/9/2001:
Say this much for Pete Carroll. The guy is great with a top hat and wand.

He pulls quarters from behind his ear. He extracts scarves from his sleeve. In front of 69,959 at the Coliseum on Saturday, he made things levitate and change shape and go poof.

How Pete Carroll is with a college football team, however, we're still not sure.

The Trojans lost a game they should have won, against a team whose only magic was a forearm shiver.

The final score was Kansas State 10, USC 6. The final margin was no bigger than two missed kicks and fumble.

2005-10-03 23:08:50
181.   Uncle Miltie
Eric great little comic.

Here's a collection of Tracy's greatest moments as manager of the Dodgers:

2005-10-03 23:11:05
182.   rageon
I was hoping to wake up tomorrow morning and read the joyous news of Tracy being fired, but I'll certainly take the good news a day early.

As far as replacements go, I think Ron Washington has to be considered a very strong candidate, assuming he wants the job. He really does appear to be the next "in" manager candidate, and will get a job as soon as he decides he wants to mangage. It will probably come down to whether Macha stays in Oakland or not, because if they look commited to Macha, Washington may sense that it's not going to happen in Oakland and decide to move on. I think the fact that he has worked in the Oakland system goes miles in trying to figure out if he will mesh with DePo or not. If Washington wasn't willing to accept contemporary baseball thinking, I can't imagine he would have been kept around by Beane so long. I have no opinion on whether he would be good at it or not, but I'm nearly positive he will be given a great deal of consideration. The downside is that the media will just destroy anyone else coming from Oakland's system. At this point, I'm not sure DePo cares, but the press would be brutal if they don't win immediately.

Orel is another guy that will get an interview if he wants the job. Orel is going to move on to managing or to a front office, it's just a matter of when and for who. The idea of Orel managing elsewhere would be another black-eye for the Dodgers, as Scioscia currently is. But I have zero idea what Orel's desire is.

I'd be shocked if we went with a veteran manager with a strong personality (Kennedy, Valetine). That would just be a rerun of Tracy, with the manager trying to push his own agenda over the GM's. I don't think either of those two would be willing to lay down to a young guy who never played pro ball. We could go the route of a veteran, but it won't be a guy like Kennedy. Ignoring non-baseball reasons for being in New York, Art Howe would be the model for the already-been-there manager.

Lastly, while a manager needs a strong influence on the coaching staff, I think Manny Mota should be kept around in some capacity or another. It would just seem weird for him to be gone. Anyone else surprised that Mota's wikipedia page is this long?

2005-10-03 23:15:18
183.   Bob Timmermann
Found a coach whom Plaschke approves of:

Andy Murray

2005-10-03 23:20:43
184.   Louis in SF
147 Ken, Ron Washington is interviewed all the time in the Bay Area and even is on a show once a week, where his segment is called the weekend wash. He would be a great candidate and he has the advantage of having been with DePodesta and Depodesta knowing what he can offer and Washington having been in the Dodger organization and been a part of the great Dodger teams in the 70's and early 80's. Washington has stated many times on his show the need to teach young players at the major league level. The Dodgers will need plenty of that next year.
2005-10-03 23:22:04
185.   dzzrtRatt
Here's a name I'm sure no one's thought of: Harriet Miers.
2005-10-03 23:27:52
186.   Steve
185 -- she bunts too much.
2005-10-03 23:29:26
187.   Bob Timmermann
Plaschke and Simers are up on the Times site.

They are slightly displeased...

2005-10-03 23:31:12
188.   dzzrtRatt
184 The Ron Washington idea simply makes too much sense for it not to happen.

But is it really the case that every veteran manager out there is too hidebound or unintelligent to understand what DePodesta is trying to do?

I think Jim Tracy is sui generis--a guy with an unusual degree of arrogance, a guy who assigned players to the doghouse or the penthouse based on nothing more than his personal feelings about them.

The idea that DePo and Tracy had philosophical differences is a misnomer. DePodesta has a coherent philosophy, but Tracy's only philosophy was to obstruct DePodesta. I have yet to discern from Tracy some alternate theory of baseball.

If by some weird twist the Dodgers ended up hiring Bobby Cox or Lou Piniella or Jim Leyland, I don't think they would be so resistant to DePo's program. DePo is not that far out of the mainstream. He's not Dr. Frankenstein, although Jim Tracy wants the world to think he is.

2005-10-03 23:31:31
189.   Vaudeville Villain

I refuse to let them spoil my good mood. Although, I do have a certain morbid curiosity...

No, nevermind.

2005-10-03 23:32:12
190.   rageon
186 After 3 years of trying to guess who the next justices would be, we end up with someone so obscure that I spend the day arguing with a friend over who is uglier, Miers or Ginsberg.
2005-10-03 23:34:39
191.   Eric Enders
Is nobody heeding Jon's warning that Ron Washington is portrayed in Moneyball as almost an anti-Moneyball guy, even going so far as to mock the A's front office in the book?
2005-10-03 23:35:14
192.   Bob Timmermann
Bill is angry at us:

"The tough part for me is the love I had for managing this club," Tracy said.

But love of the Dodgers no longer matters here. It's all about loving DePodesta, who has polarized the Dodger community like few others.

In Los Angeles today there are DePodesta fans, and there are Dodger fans, and they are often not the same person.

DePodesta fans are often statistic lovers who view the game from afar, like their bedroom computer. They are thrilled that somebody like them is in charge. They care less about winning than about living vicariously through his moves.

Well, I've been put in my place.

2005-10-03 23:35:57
193.   Eric Enders
"If by some weird twist the Dodgers ended up hiring Bobby Cox or Lou Piniella or Jim Leyland, I don't think they would be so resistant to DePo's program."

Agreed -- I think they would be far more resistant than Tracy was.

2005-10-03 23:37:11
194.   gregsmokler
Larry Dierker!
2005-10-03 23:38:11
195.   Bob Timmermann
The Fire Tracy "poll" has narrowed greatly in the last few hours.
2005-10-03 23:40:40
196.   LAT
I must be missing something. Who is Bob Loblaw? I Googled him and got some video oriducer.
2005-10-03 23:42:10
197.   LAT
"oriducer" was supposed to be "producer"
2005-10-03 23:42:28
198.   Vaudeville Villain

What is with Bill Plaschke's crusade against computers? Does he write his pieces on a typewriter or something?

2005-10-03 23:43:31
199.   dzzrtRatt
193 Cox has had to put up with far more salary-driven personnel moves than Tracy could even imagine. He has been in perfect sync with the GM there, who is the kind of GM I think DePo aspires to be. Leyland, with both the Pirates and the Marlins, saw veterans shipped out and rookies brought in, and did the best he could. Piniella won 118 games with Seattle--and if my memory is correct, this took place the year AFTER the team dropped Griffey, Jr., A-Rod and the Unit. All three managers have had a huge hand in developing young players, with numerous successes to point to. Tracy can take credit for... Izturis, Werth and Grabowski.
2005-10-03 23:45:21
200.   Icaros
191 Wasn't he the one standing around the batting cage with newly-acquired Ray Durham lamenting management's disdain for the stolen base?
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-10-03 23:45:29
201.   Linkmeister
54-46 in favor of Tracy at this point in the Times poll (I just voted).

It occurs to me that I swiped the lyrics to "De-Lovely" and posted them when I first heard that Delay had been indicted; I'm not that gleeful about Tracy's departure, but I sure think it had to be done.

2005-10-03 23:46:19
202.   dzzrtRatt
Plaschke has gone off the deep end. Two examples:

There has been talk about how the average-to-bad performances of Beltre and Alex Cora and Shawn Green and Steve Finley (acquired by DePodesta) with their new teams this season, but that's not the point. All those players were worth more to the Dodgers than to anyone else. It's not about what they did elsewhere, it's about what they would have done here.

And here, he paints DePodesta as something akin to a serial killer:

...DePodesta, the general manager who believes he can break into the playoffs the way a hacker breaks into a corporation — with a few keystrokes, fewer dollars, and no conscience.

Whoah. Gnarly.

2005-10-03 23:47:24
203.   rageon
191 I'm very aware of Washington as playing the part of the anti-moneyball character in the book. However, like I mentioned, if his thinking was that far off I doubt he would have stuck in Oakland for as long as he did. I think there are some areas where it's OK to disagree, as long as the manager follows the same general philosophy as the GM, and I think Washington would probably be willing to do that. Tracy was not.

187 Just finished reading them. I'm not sure they desearve comment, as those two will find a way to criticize whatever DePo does, and have no problem changing their stories back and forth to do so. My one reaction is this, why again is Oakland used as an example of a "moneyball team that didn't succedd." In the past 5 years, they've won 3 division titles, missed another by 1 game, and missed this year by only 7 games, still winning 88 games despite injuries to 2 of their 3 most important players. And they did all this on a bottom-third payroll. Sounds like a success to me. How many fans wouldn't trade their teams success over this time for that of Oaklands? 5 maybe?

Simers and Plaschke are fools, enough said.

2005-10-03 23:47:42
204.   Bob Timmermann
To be nitpicky, the Mariners won 116 games in their big season (2001).
2005-10-03 23:48:39
205.   Eric Enders
"Tracy can take credit for... Izturis, Werth and Grabowski."

Well, and Gagne, Lo Duca, Mota, Odalis, Cora, Roberts...

You weaken the already-excellent argument for firing Tracy by writing distorted stuff like this, dzzrtRat. There's no need to fabricate evidence here; this defendant is genuinely guilty.

2005-10-03 23:51:03
206.   Eric Enders
"Plaschke has gone off the deep end."

You're only noticing this now?

2005-10-03 23:53:21
207.   rageon
205 Why does Tracy get "credit" for any of those players? It's not like he signed or drafted them. Maybe he chose to give some of them an opportunity to play more, but that's about it. Gagne? Whether he was pitching in save situations or not was going to be good to the point of getting noticed. Mota? I'd credit the GM who was smart enough to acquire a guy otherwise considered to be nothing. Perez? The guy had ace-quality stuff while in Atlanta, if anything I'd credit Sheff for getting him to LA.
2005-10-03 23:56:31
208.   Linkmeister
John Van der Waal broke Manny's record?!? (from Wikipedia)
2005-10-03 23:57:48
209.   Eric Enders
For the same reasons those other managers named get credit for theirs. The post I was responding to gave other managers credit for the young players that developed in their regimes, while conveniently ignoring those who developed with the Dodgers under Tracy.

I don't know whether Tracy deserves that credit or not, but it's irrelevant to the point I was making anyway. The notion of who deserves the credit is immaterial; I was merely pointing out the intentional distortion of Tracy's record in comparison to that of other managers.

2005-10-03 23:59:36
210.   Eric Enders

Vander Wal broke the single season record for pinch hits, which is not and has never been held by Manny Mota. Mota's record was the career record; it was broken by Lenny Harris.

2005-10-04 00:00:09
211.   rageon
209 Fair enough.
2005-10-04 00:01:44
212.   dzzrtRatt
205 I didn't include any of the excellent pitchers who emerged during Tracy's tenure because I think Colborn deserves the credit. I bet Tracy would even agree that's so.

I'll give you LoDuca. In fact he is probably Tracy's shining achievement, a guy no one figured would play in the majors, much less excel. Tracy who gave him his shot and it worked out.

Roberts came from outside the organization. Cora had half a good season (first half of 2004) at the plate.

To be fair to Tracy yet more, I did agree with his close focus on defense, and certainly the better than average defensive play of Izzy, Cora, Beltre, Bradley and Werth should be noted as a Tracy accomplishment. In 2003, he almost proved a team could win with pitching and defense only.

My point was, and I'm sticking to it--there are many examples of veteran, respected managers who have thrived in low- or medium-budget environments, who've adjusted after star players left purely due to budgetary reasons, who understand how their role differs from the GM's role, and yet retain a reputation for creative leadership. Tracy acts like no self-respecting manager should have to put up with losing star players to free agency or trades. Well, a lot of them do, and they still manage to win.

2005-10-04 00:05:36
213.   oldbear
Whats wrong with watching the games from your bedroom computer? MLB All Access is a lot better than MLB Extra innings....

The LA Times I would guess are still livid about DePo not punishing Milton Bradley for calling Jason Reid an "uncle tom".

Who cares? If the media is upset with the Dodgers, chances are they are doing something right.

2005-10-04 00:05:59
214.   Bob Timmermann
Deep down, I think the dislike of DePodesta by the media is a dislike of McCourt. And since McCourt has backed DePodesta there is even more ire.

Simers didn't buy the explanation that McCourt did not call Tracy because there was a death in McCourt's family. If that story is true, then Simers is riding a very fine line between good and bad taste.

2005-10-04 00:07:31
215.   Linkmeister
210 Thanks. I knew about Harris, but I'd never heard/read that Van der Waal was up there in pinch hits. Single season makes more sense.

Boy, Simers and Plaschke seem to have vented every bit of spleen they still have left in their respective columns in tomorrow's paper.

2005-10-04 00:11:50
216.   dzzrtRatt
Plaschke doesn't like fans who read the stats. I guess that was his point. I wonder, did he ever turn over his baseball cards when he was a kid? Long before Bill James, the people at Topps made statistics important to fans as young as 7. Statistics are used as much by non-sabre-ites as sabrematicians. Statistics are part of the beauty of baseball, the idea that you can compare players from different eras. Baseball lovers have numbers coming out of their ears: 56. .401. 755. 60 then 61 with an asterisk.

When I said Plaschke's gone off the deep end, I meant...even for him.

2005-10-04 00:13:34
217.   Vaudeville Villain
I couldn't stay away... God this article is bad.

Bill Plaschke is angry folks. Jim Tracy, who has steered a team into fourth place, is almost completely absolved of blame.

"You give the keys of your prized car to a kid still learning to drive.

The kid steers it through bushes, over mailboxes and to the bottom of a ditch.

You are so angry, you punish … the mechanic who can't fix it?"

Isn't this analogy backwards? Wouldn't Depo be the mechanic? Sure, you can say he did a bad job, but the driver is Tracy. He made the lineup decisions not Depodesta. He decided to play Jason Phillips at first base.

"Jim Tracy has been ejected, Paul DePodesta has been endorsed, and those Dodger fans still willing to support this nonsense should be very afraid."

Afraid of what? Are you threatening me, Bill? I'll have you know I could probably beat the crap out of you.

"This was not a decision about winning — manager Tracy had winning records in four of his five seasons, winning more than 90 games twice."

Winning more than 90 games with an amazing pitching staff he had nothing to do with, and an offense that he fielded that consistently stunk.

"It's a vision that has yet to result in a playoff series victory in the three places where it is prominently pushed — Oakland, Los Angeles and Toronto."

You forgot Boston there, chief.

"In other words, he didn't give a whit about the tiny size of Hee-Seop Choi's contract; the big stiff couldn't play."

Did this guy even watch the games? I mean, seriously? Did he watch Phillips?

"There has been talk about the average-to-bad performances of Beltre and Alex Cora and Shawn Green and Steve Finley (acquired by DePodesta) with their new teams this season, but that's not the point."

Yes it is, the point of a general manager is to make sure he doesn't overpay or retain mediocre to bad players.

"Tracy wasn't great, but, in the end, he was good enough. He was a good manager, a good baseball man, a good human being who made one good team great and brought this town a bit of long-awaited joy.

Does he have to be so flowery? He's a baseball manager, not your sister.

"DePodesta fans are often statistic lovers who view the game from afar, like their bedroom computer. They are thrilled that somebody like them is in charge. They care less about winning than about living vicariously through his moves.

No, we care about winning and having an idea of HOW to win. Rather than rely on abstractions like chemistry or heart and soul.

2005-10-04 00:14:02
218.   Bob Timmermann
Kevin Modesti in the Daily News is a bit more level-headed.

2005-10-04 00:14:54
219.   LAT
Wow, I just finished Simers and Plaschke's articles. Simers I can take-half his nonsense is shtick, but Plaschke is just a retard with a book of matches and a gas can. Ironically, most of his argument is based on what he criticize Depo for, lack of desire to win. Bill says we should have kept Beltre and Co. even though they are stinking it up elsewhere because they are good folk.. After pointing out Tracy's shortcomings, he says we should have kept him cause he's a good guy. I have long pointed out that Tracy is a stand-up guy (this week excepted) but that is not the basis for retaining a manager. Many know what I think of Shawn Green, but if winning is your goal a nice guy is secondary. Bill, it is you who does not care about winning, you just want a team of nice guys which is ok, but don't criticize others because they don't want nice guys but want winners instead. Finally, there was this: It's a vision that has yet to result in a playoff series victory in the three places where it is prominently pushed — Oakland, Los Angeles and Toronto." Bill, you conveniently forgot to mention that team from Boston that won the WS.
2005-10-04 00:16:24
220.   Bob Timmermann

Boston only won the World Series last year because of Dave Roberts.

Nothing else.

Didn't you get the memo?

2005-10-04 00:18:30
221.   Midwest Blue
201 Actually, it's 52-48 anti-Tracy, in DePo's favor. It has narrowed quite a bit. So get on over there and fire your pro-DePo votes!

I may have voted a few times... I am from Chicago, you know.


2005-10-04 00:19:04
222.   Steve
Anything there about the Fire Jim Tracy Mob?
2005-10-04 00:20:47
223.   Midwest Blue
Steve, the mob could use a few votes in DePo's favor. Maybe you could help out.

2005-10-04 00:21:22
224.   dzzrtRatt
I'm still marveling at Plaschke's, "All those players (Green, Beltre and Finley) were worth more to the Dodgers than to anyone else." What part of his large intestine did he pull that idea out of?
2005-10-04 00:24:08
225.   natepurcell
what is going to the FJT site?

steve, may i suggest: keep it up. i am sure tracy will get another gig for next year. you can give the fans of that team a place to vent because im sure "FJT" will soon be there battle cry as well.

2005-10-04 00:26:21
226.   LAT
220. Bob, so does that make saber boy Theo a genius for picking Roberts up or does it make saber boy Depo an idiot for letting him go. Either way the sabers win and the sabers lose. This irreconcilable logic will cause the computer to blow up.:-)
2005-10-04 00:27:06
227.   dzzrtRatt
218 Modesti's much better, but he reaches a little bit, too, with this: "He made Jolbert Cabrera a contributor, made Alex Cora a local star, made Eric Gagne a closer and watched him win the Cy Young Award.

Cabrera? That makes the top three Tracy accomplishments?

2005-10-04 00:28:45
228.   dzzrtRatt
226 Actually, I've heard DePodesta say he regretted trading Dave Roberts. And, he "wishes" he could have signed Beltre. Those are the two negatives he admits to.
2005-10-04 00:29:37
229.   Bob Timmermann
Roberts is the only player I've heard DePodesta mention that he would like back. But I think that's because he realized he could have gotten more for him in a trade.
2005-10-04 00:31:45
230.   LAT
228. I believe the Roberts comment. The Beltre comment I think is just PR. Other than the backlash how could be sorry he didn't sign Beltre after the year he's had.
2005-10-04 00:31:52
231.   trainwreck
DePo in an interview with Peter Gammons said he thought trading Roberts was his biggest mistake
2005-10-04 00:34:48
232.   dzzrtRatt
230 Well, maybe, like Plashcke, DePodesta believe Beltre was "worth more to the Dodgers than anyone else." ;]
2005-10-04 00:36:51
233.   Midwest Blue
Plashke's article is extremely insulting, accusing all sophisticated fans of not being "true Dodger fans".

I can hardly wait to see what excuses he uses in two years when the Dodgers get far in the playoffs: "If they had kept Tracy, they would have won the whole thing, it's DePo's fault". What a jackass.

2005-10-04 00:41:33
234.   Bob Timmermann
It's not like we're a bastion of fair play and open-mindness all the time here.

I think Sunday exemplified that.

2005-10-04 00:41:58
235.   Eric L
You know what I hate about Plaschke.. he isn't consistent with his praise or criticism.

He praises Tracy for one stinking win in the playoffs and winning a division, yet says that the other saber teams haven't been very successful.

Meanwhile, the A's have 3 of those division championships that Tracy gets love for and a few more playoff wins to boot.

The Blue Jays are another matter, but I think Ricciardi fan boys are coming to find out that the dude isn't as saber minded as they thought he was.

I guess what I am trying to say.. if Tracy is a successful manager for guiding his team to a couple of 90 win seasons, a division title, and winning 1 game in the playoffs, why is Tracy successful while Oakland isn't?

2005-10-04 00:44:53
236.   Bob Timmermann
The issue with Plaschke and Simers isn't Tracy and it isn't DePodesta.

It's McCourt.

They don't like McCourt. They don't trust McCourt. They don't want McCourt around.

Everything else is a diversion.

The issue is simply Frank McCourt.

2005-10-04 00:45:39
237.   Steve
235 -- Excellent, excellent points.

225 -- FJT posts tonight on a momentous occasion. But retirement stands. The site has outlived its usefulness.

2005-10-04 00:47:54
238.   LAT
What kills me about Plaschke is that in addition to not knowing what the hell he's talking about, he is a crappy writer. Just plain bad, regardless of the subject matter. Bad analogies. Bad metaphors. Bad sentence structure. Bad paragraph structure (although they are usually the same thing in his case). Just bad. How did he get to this level. Jon (and many others here) could write circles around this guy.
2005-10-04 01:01:08
239.   Eric L

Even moreso, I didn't do enough due dilligence in my own research..

Tracy has won 90 games twice. During the Tracy regime, the A's have won 90 games FOUR times.

This year, the A's won 88 games. During the same time period, the Tracy led Dodgers have only topped that record twice (a 5 year period).

disclaimer: This and my previous post isn't to dump on Tracy. I think Tracy, Evans, and now DePodesta were dealt some bad hands from the get go. I'm more concerned with Plaschke's ignorance.

2005-10-04 01:03:54
240.   Tommy Naccarato
And further down the rabbit hole Little Alice went......
2005-10-04 01:10:44
241.   Bob Timmermann
The Yes on Tracy firing voters lead by 29.

Obviously we are going to have to wait for the Florida vote to come in.

2005-10-04 01:15:43
242.   fanerman
241 - 27 now. Though I voted already. This is seriously the best news I've heard all year.
2005-10-04 01:28:14
243.   rageon
I'm thinking the next mention of DT in the times is going to be a "Stat geeks attempt to distort poll on the Times' website" story.
2005-10-04 02:59:25
244.   al bundy
Though it wasn't directed at Plaschke, my favorite quote so far is by Ken: "The 'so-far-failed' GM has a 50% success rate at making the playoffs, and has already won more playoff games than his three predecessors combined. Don't you hate it when facts get in the way of a good rant, though?"

As for mint juleps, Steve in 151, I had a couple on Saturday that were incredible. They used a premium kentucky bourbon made my Woodford Reserve. If you're using Jack Daniels, you ought to try that stuff. You'll never go back!

Adios, Jim Tracy. Can you do us all a favor and take Plaschke to Pittsburgh with you?

2005-10-04 07:43:35
245.   Vishal
hahahah, bill plaschke's article was a RIOT. i wonder, does he actually believe the tripe he writes, or do you think this is merely insincere demogoguery, contrived purely for commercial purposes?

i'm considering emailing him.

2005-10-04 07:52:23
246.   Bob Timmermann
Early morning voters have pushed the Pro-Tracy stance ahead by 53 votes.
2005-10-04 07:54:05
247.   SiGeg
What really surprises me about the Plaschke article is the headline in the print edition.

"Taken Down by Cheap Shot"

Who knew the Times' headline writer would be so honest about Plaschke's treatment of DePodesta?

2005-10-04 08:08:36
248.   dzzrtRatt
214 Deep down, I think the dislike of DePodesta by the media is a dislike of McCourt. And since McCourt has backed DePodesta there is even more ire.

I agree up to a point. But the way the Times played the Milton Bradley incident, it was almost as if they were inviting McCourt to do the right thing, recognize that 'chemistry' is of surpassing importance, let Jim Tracy be Jim Tracy, and show that snot-nosed laptop geek the door. Times coverage might've turned around for McCourt if he'd fired DePo and kept Tracy.

245 i wonder, does he actually believe the tripe he writes, or do you think this is merely insincere demogoguery, contrived purely for commercial purposes?

My bet is he believes it to the marrow of his soul. The Times' scribes believe they are above their readership and should not be influenced by their interests, desires or opinions. This is why circulation has dropped a phenomenal 18 percent in the past year.

2005-10-04 08:12:57
249.   Jesse
Is anyone else probably going to get into an argument with their dad over Tracy's firing? Anyhow, didn't Lasorda only get one or two year extensions at max throughout his tenure? Correct me if I'm wrong.
2005-10-04 08:18:38
250.   Bob Timmermann
I would likely be arguing with my sister-in-law. But she wouldn't do it for very long.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-10-04 08:29:06
251.   jackeck
In terms of Plaschke's column, aren't the defending world champion Red Sox a saber driven team?
2005-10-04 08:30:17
252.   dzzrtRatt
I know a few fans who liked Tracy, but were disturbed by his freeze-out of Choi. They're torn right now.

Someone mentioned this parallel earlier. When Mayor Hahn fired LAPD Chief Parks, there was widespread outrage...until he hired Chief Bratton. No matter whether you liked Parks or didn't, clearly Bratton was a better choice. DePodesta and McCourt might find the same thickheaded scribes and pundits tossing roses in their path, depending on how they perceive Tracy's replacement.

(I realize, this didn't help Hahn any, but Hahn was overall an inept politician compared to DePodesta.)

2005-10-04 08:31:35
253.   molokai
My Dad and brother who don't think Depo is doing a good job are very happy that JT was fired.
2005-10-04 08:31:54
254.   molokai
My niece is happy that JT was fired.
2005-10-04 08:32:15
255.   molokai
My wife is happy that JT was fired.
2005-10-04 08:32:36
256.   molokai
My wife's students are happy that JT was fired.
2005-10-04 08:33:29
257.   molokai
In general the Gurnee family is happy that JT was fired.
2005-10-04 08:38:47
258.   SMY
It's interesting that somehow Tracy has become iconic, at least to the LA media. I don't know if it's the fact that he's been compared to Walter Alston (before my time, but I can't imagine this is true) or the fact that he's had some stability after the post-Lasorda revolving door or what, but I can't for the life of me see what he's done that getting rid of him is going to be the death of the franchise. Better managers have been fired with very little discernible effect. It boggles the mind.
2005-10-04 08:48:04
259.   Jon Weisman
252 - For many, that was the case with Dan Evans. I liked Dan Evans. But DePo promised to be potentially even greater.
2005-10-04 08:48:58
260.   Jon Weisman
For Tuesday playoff chat, please use this thread:

Feel free to continue Tracy chat here.

2005-10-04 08:55:24
261.   FirstMohican
236 - The issue is simply Frank McCourt.

You might be right, but I get the feeling that Plaschke gets a little personal sometimes...

"In Los Angeles today there are DePodesta fans, and there are Dodger fans, and they are often not the same person.

So liking the GM and the team might be mutually exclusive? Alright.

"DePodesta fans are often statistic lovers who view the game from afar, like their bedroom computer. They are thrilled that somebody like them is in charge. They care less about winning than about living vicariously through his moves.

Interesting insight. When Phillips drives in the game winning run, I get mad that Choi didn't strike out in his stead. Right.

In regards to statistical analysis...

"It's a vision that has yet to result in a playoff series victory in the three places where it is prominently pushed — Oakland, Los Angeles and Toronto."

...oh yeah, and Boston.

2005-10-04 09:05:45
262.   molokai
So when Oakland/Dodgers meet in the World Series in 2007 will this discussion still be going on?
2005-10-04 09:08:15
263.   FirstMohican
Re Plaschke's article:

It's also funny how the single playoff victory last year is cited as a success for Tracy's philosophy, but somehow the lack of playoff series victories for a few handpicked teams are cited as a failure for the other - apparently incompatible - philosophy.

2005-10-04 09:20:12
264.   Steve
Dodger Blues reset the Great Dodger Moment clock.
2005-10-04 09:21:11
265.   Bob Timmermann

There were a lot of people here who got angry when Phillips got hits that drove in runs because "it would just encourage him."

2005-10-04 09:26:30
266.   Bob Timmermann
I never thought I would ever see the Dodger Blues clock reset short of a World Series title.


2005-10-04 09:31:42
267.   Improbable88
It seems there is a lot of discussion as to what constitutes success, particularly in comparing the Dodgers with other sabr-teams. Personally, I don't care what other sabr-teams have done (although the Boston and Oakland results are obviosuly promising)I care that the Dodgers have only finished 1st in their division since 1998. We live in Los Angeles and our franchise should not only be competitive, but should be winning division championships EVERY year!! This is not then 80s when you'd have to beat out 13 other teams, we are in a division with teams from Colorado, Arizona, San Diego and San Francisco!!! As far as I'm concerned, if we haven't been able to outclass this division in recent years, then a change is necessary. This team should accept nothing but dominance, and Tracy cleary was not that.

Point being, doing the old way hasn't got us anywhere. That's why I think we all here are so accepting of the change. This town needs a baseball revolution. I'm on board.

2005-10-04 09:31:59
268.   Kayaker7
My wife is so happy that Tracy got fired. She doesn't know the first thing about baseball, but she's happy she won't have to hear me complain about him anymore.
2005-10-04 09:56:41
269.   dzzrtRatt
258 ...the fact that (Tracy's) been compared to Walter Alston...

I've heard that comparison too, but it's about as superficial as this kind of comparison gets. Before Alston, the Dodgers had never won a World Championship. Alston won three of them, and was in a total of six World Series. Alston, as far I know, aired no public complaints about any of the GMs he worked for. He was not a 'you're in the penthouse, but you're in the doghouse' kind of manager. He couldn't have cared less about 'chemistry'--he expected his players to do their jobs.

About the only thing Alston had in common with Tracy was that they were on the same low end of the charisma scale, in comparison with Lasorda.

2005-10-04 09:58:52
270.   John A
Plaschke is obviously mean-spirited and unfair. But he's now guilty of something possibly worse: he's flat-out boring. I used to read his columns to get riled-up, but he's now so predictable that he doesn't even serve that purpose for me. Good analysts like Jon reevaluate and adjust their views as situations change. And they offer fresh insights from time to time. Today's Plaschke column is essentially the same DePodesta/Tracy/McCourt column he's been writing for more than a year. Z-Z-Z
2005-10-04 09:59:06
271.   dzzrtRatt
Oops, one of my fingers went missing. Alston won four World Championships: '55, '59, '63, '65. Sorry.
2005-10-04 09:59:56
272.   CT Bum
I'd love to see Ron Wotus, bench coach for the Giants get the job. He's young, forward thinking (I believe), a no-name, and how sweet would it be to steal him from the Giants?

Oh, and I also went to high school, and played on baseball team with him. Well, when I say played, I was more the scorekeeper/3rd base coach/"outfielder when we're up or down by 10 runs". He was an 3 sport All-State high school record setter.

But it would be great to say, "Dodgers manager...yeah, I grew up with him."

2005-10-04 10:01:07
273.   SMY
269 -- Thanks for the insight. I don't know much about Alston (aside from the fact that he won championships), although anyone making that comparison probably doesn't either.
2005-10-04 10:05:45
274.   Bob Timmermann
So what date did this Plaschke gem run?

As one of the featured characters in the best-selling,

behind-the-scenes book "Moneyball," DePodesta was once described by author Michael Lewis as such:

"Before the 2002 season, Paul DePodesta had reduced the coming sixth months to a math problem."

The book told how DePodesta judged players by certain statistics, especially on-base percentage, then put those stats into a computer that spit out the names of guys he wanted.

Without a Panama hat or stopwatch in sight.

2005-10-04 10:08:39
275.   bayareadodger
Sorry to get in so late but I have been reading this blog all year from here in the bay and this is an awful time for the Dodger fans, the organization went from a shell of its former self to one great year to the laughing stock of the league bar none! I think KC has a better org right now. And it starts at the top and ends with the second worst GM in the BB (Tampa Bay) DePo. The dodgers will never win as long as he is around and I have to continue to put up with the giants. Sad
2005-10-04 10:13:20
276.   Icaros
274 That Panama hat line reminds me how much I'd prefer to still see Mike Brito behind the plate with a speed gun rather than some goof on a cell-phone waving to his mentally comatose friends and family.

Anyone remember what year Brito stopped doing that? Has he just been moved to another location?

2005-10-04 10:14:41
277.   Bob Timmermann
I think Brito moved once they remodeled the seats. Then he moved further up into the stands.
2005-10-04 10:23:05
278.   Vaudeville Villain

What exactly has Depodesta done to become the second worst GM in the leagues?

2005-10-04 10:24:33
279.   Icaros
277 Maybe they could put a cardboard cut-out Brito behind the plate for nostalgic purposes.
2005-10-04 10:27:35
280.   dzzrtRatt
I didn't realize Brito's gone. I figured he was wearing a T-shirt, cargo shorts and dreadlocks and was using a cell phone instead of a radar gun.
2005-10-04 10:30:02
281.   dzzrtRatt
By the way, whatever happened to all the people who posted a reference to a verse in the Book of John behind home plate and goal posts across America. They seemed to be ubiquitous, and then disappeared all at once. Did the Rapture happen and I missed it?
2005-10-04 10:30:47
282.   Icaros
Bob likes to play Tetris on his cell phone when he's at a game.
2005-10-04 10:31:55
283.   Icaros
281 They all stopped fearing death and moved on with what is left of their lives.
2005-10-04 10:35:14
284.   Eric Enders
Not that it really matters, but it was actually me who said that.
2005-10-04 10:35:52
285.   Bob Timmermann
I don't have Tetris on my cellphone.

I play Nineball.

2005-10-04 10:44:00
286.   Eric Enders
Did I mention yet how much I hate Jim Edmonds?

What did he do to get an "I Live For This" commercial? What, Pujols was too busy?

2005-10-04 10:44:16
287.   Eric Enders
Ugh. Wrong thread there.
2005-10-04 11:23:43
288.   gvette
In celebration,will Steve at FJT be landing on the deck of an aircraft carrier with a huge "Mission Accomplished" banner hanging above him?

Hope Tracy got used to a 90 loss season, since he'll be having a lot more of them in Pittsburgh, or wherever else he goes. Maybe he can take his pals at the Times with him, along with Repko, Phillips, Edwards and Carrara.

DePo best be planning on getting better players for next year or face the wrath of Frank and Jaime, because there is no way the Dodgers show a profit and pull 3.6 mil attendance with this roster.

Hope either Royster or Ron Washington can be better as Dodger manager than they were as Dodger players.

2005-10-04 11:27:28
289.   Eric Enders
Royster... please, there might be children present, let's cut down on the vulgar and obscene ideas.

Did nobody pay attention to Royster's bumbleheadedness as manager of Milwaukee? He's more Buntermaker than Buntermaker is.

2005-10-04 11:29:23
290.   blue22
Who manages AA-Jax?
2005-10-04 11:35:13
291.   Eric Enders
John Shoemaker... kind of a minor league managerial retread who's been around for years. He managed in our minor league system in the late 80s/early 90s, was fired, and then later rehired at some point.
2005-10-04 11:36:22
292.   gvette
289- Eric, Who do you figure will be on DePo's short list?
2005-10-04 11:46:16
293.   Adam M
Tom Kelly's name was mentionedearlier. Anybody think the Dodgers could get him? There was talk of him coming out of retirement a few years ago. I could go either way on it, but it's an interesting possibility to say the least.

The only thing I hope is that DePo has some solid leads on a replacement candidate and this isn't a repeat of the Charles Johnson situation. I have a feeling Piniella is not on the list, since Piniella seems to be all but penciled-in as the next Marlins manager. But honestly, any replacement will do, because it will mean:

* No more robomanaging Izturis into the leadoff spot.
* No more ABs for Repko, Grabowski, Edwards, Rose, etc. because the manager is "comfortable" ith them.
* No more cockamamie stunts like Phillips at first base.

Personally, I would love to see what Joe Torre could do back in the NL, and suspect he might prefer McCourt to other bosses, but who knows? Since the Yankees didnt miss the playoffs, the Fire Joe T talk has died down.

2005-10-04 11:48:53
294.   blue22
292 - Bob Geren is currently Oakland's bullpen coach, but sports a very impressive minor league managerial record.

He joined the organization in '99, 2 years after Beane was hired as GM, so you figure there is some consistency in style.

2005-10-04 11:49:59
295.   dzzrtRatt
Torre's got a huge contract with years to go on it. You don't hear me knocking McCourt for being cheap too often, but I think he's too cheap to pay that kind of salary to a manager.
2005-10-04 11:50:10
296.   Eric Enders
Here is Shoemaker's managerial career in the Dodger system:

- 15 seasons
- Overall record: 913-943 (.492)
- Championships: 2.5 (1996, T-2001, 2005)
- Selected by Chicago Bulls in 6th round of 1978 NBA Draft

A Vero Beach 1987-88
AA San Antonio 1989-91
R St. Lucie 1992
A Yakima 1993
R Great Falls 1995
A Savannah 1996
A Vero Beach 1997-98
A Vero Beach 2000
AA Jacksonville 2001
AAA Las Vegas 2003
AA Jacksonville 2004-05

Note that he has been demoted three times in his Dodger career.

I expect Royster will mercifully be shown the door in the offseason and Shoemaker will be promoted to LV, so he can continue managing the team he had this year at Jacksonville.

2005-10-04 11:51:16
297.   blue22
296 - Thanks for the info. With all the talk about the Jax team, I don't think I've ever heard his name once.
2005-10-04 11:54:37
298.   Eric Enders
"Eric, Who do you figure will be on DePo's short list?"

I have no idea. Like I said last night, I've heard a lot of suggestions here and elsewhere, almost all of them terrible ideas. I'd be surprised and somewhat disappointed if the new manager is someone we've heard of.

2005-10-04 11:56:58
299.   Adam M
DodgerBlues today:

"Was he fired? Technically, no. Does that diminsh our excitement? Not in the least."

"...God bless Paul DePodesta for having a head the size of Iowa. DePodesta believes that a lineup should be built one way: his way. Tracy wanted to do it his own way, and now Tracy can do it his own way for a team in the Pacific Coast League (or the Pirates... basically the same thing).

While nobody with the Dodgers will say that Tracy was actually fired, how often do you see a manager choose to leave a team that he's managed for five years?"

They go on to bash DePo and McCourt as well: "...there might be someone out there who's worse than Jim Tracy. If there is, you can bet that McCourt and DePodesta will find him. Why expect that the same men who brought us Jose Valentin and Jason Phillips will bring us someone who's capable of running a major league baseball team?"

Gladly, DePo acknowledged the other day that Valentin was a "win-now" [groan] acquisition, and that signings of that type are not part of the long-term plan. It's safe to say he feels the same way about Phillips. Next year and the year afterwards will hopefully see fewer and fewer of those kinds of acquisitions.

2005-10-04 11:57:14
300.   Eric Enders
"But honestly, any replacement will do, because it will mean:

* No more robomanaging Izturis into the leadoff spot.
* No more ABs for Repko, Grabowski, Edwards, Rose, etc. because the manager is "comfortable" ith them.
* No more cockamamie stunts like Phillips at first base."

Completely disagree with all that. I think the vast majority of MLB managers would have batted Izturis leadoff for the 2005 Dodgers, and I think many of them would have given Phillips extensive time at 1B.

Like I've been saying all year, the only people who think Tracy is even close to the worst manager in MLB are those who aren't paying attention to all the other managers.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-10-04 12:00:51
301.   Bob Timmermann
The Pro-Tracy contingent appears to have the LA Times poll sewn up. It leads by over 500 votes.
2005-10-04 12:02:21
302.   blue22
300 - Yes, if Depo had inherited one of the other 35 "professional managers" that seem to make the rounds everytime there's an opening, those mistakes still would've been made.

However, here's hoping that one of the underlying themes to Moneyball is exercised this offseason - challenge the status quo.

2005-10-04 12:11:28
303.   Bob Timmermann
If people didn't challenge the status quo, people would keep getting their ulcers treated incorrectly.

But at least the guys who discovered the bacterial cause of stomach ulcers got a Nobel Prize yesterday.

2005-10-04 12:14:15
304.   Icaros
303 Didn't hear about that. So antibiotics are the cure for ulcers now?
2005-10-04 12:16:29
305.   Steve
Apparently, personnel moves are the cure for ulcers.
2005-10-04 12:17:21
306.   Adam M
300 - That's not really my point. My other favorite team has been managed by Bob Melvin and Mike Hargrove the last two years, and I would gladly have preferred Tracy both years. Every MLB manager has weaknesses in their approach, philosophy, etc., and you'll never catch me arguing against that.

But the Tracy-DePodesta relationship is clearly poisoned. That conflict would have gone on however long Tracy stayed with the team. DePodesta and Tracy have fundamental differences in approach, and Tracy proved this year that he can't get past them. Tracy's problems stemmed largely from giving too many ABs to "his guys," the holdovers from the Evans era and the guys who didn't remind him of The Trade. If you want to get psychological, it was like he was letting his beef with DePodesta spill onto the field. Sure, there are plenty of other MLB managers who might have done the same thing, but pretty much the iron-clad rule is "badmouth the GM in public, and start printing resumes." Again, I'm not saying we have to hire any of the current MLB managers, or that getting rid of Tracy's problems won't bring on another set of disadvantages with another manager. But as has now been made clear to everyone, DePo & Tracy cannot work together, and it's not DePo who's failing to be a team player here.

2005-10-04 12:18:41
307.   regfairfield
300 Fully agree on Izturis.

I think that the average manager would have seen that Phillips was the fourth best option at first, however.

2005-10-04 12:21:08
308.   Bob Timmermann
Yep, nearly all stomach ulcers are caused by a buildup of H. pylori in the gut. For years, doctors assumed that they were caused by stress which caused people to creat excess acid, which would corrode your stomach. No one believed that bacteria could live in the highly acidic lining of the intestines. But they can. And do. And if you get too many of them, you get a hole. Bad thing.

One of the doctors who got the Nobel made a bold demonstration by drinking a flask with water loaded with H. pylori in it at a big medical conference. He was soon diagnosed with gastritis.

2005-10-04 12:22:25
309.   D4P
Why do the Dodgers even need a manager? Depo can choose the lineup (which he evidently would like to do) and just let the players play. Ground rules will be laid down (e.g. no stealing bases, no sacrifice bunts, etc.), and the pitching coach can be responsible for pitching changes. Seems to me that paying someone $700k/yr or so is just a waste.
2005-10-04 12:24:42
310.   Bob Timmermann

So sort of like baseball in the 1880s?

2005-10-04 12:26:34
311.   Steve
Agree with Izturis. Phillips is tougher. Probably some managers that wouldn't have done that. Dusty Baker would. Frank Robinson would.
2005-10-04 12:28:49
312.   Steve
309 -- That doesn't work, because you have to have someone to put players in a position to succeed. Otherwise, the sportswriters have to think of new cliches to lengthen their pieces.
2005-10-04 12:31:12
313.   D4P
Did they have active GMs back then?
2005-10-04 12:37:30
314.   Izzy
First Mohican
oh yeah, and not Boston.

The Sox are clearly not a saber team (at least not in the same sense as the A's or Blue Jays) in that they do not use a saber budget. They are more a hybrid of money and and saber. Clearly, the Dodgers are not being run the same way. When we have an 80 mil budget, and the Sox are at 130, we are not getting our moneys worth. Ya, Frank and Jamie have a nice house, but they can't afford the furniture.

2005-10-04 12:40:24
315.   dzzrtRatt
310 From 1961-65, the Chicago Cubs did not have one manager. The team was managed by a "college of coaches." It was sort of a 60s thing, I guess. Anti-hierarchical. Anyway, it didn't work; if it weren't for the expansion teams, the Mets and Colt .45's the Cubs would've been at the bottom nearly every year of that phase.
2005-10-04 12:42:01
316.   Icaros
That's good, D4P. The Dodgers could have a new Celebrity Manager for each game, someone who poses for pictures and gives interviews while the players play and the pitching coach makes pitching changes.

Imagine, Tony Danza one night, Jon Lovitz another, the Olsen twins could co-manage...

2005-10-04 12:42:13
317.   Jon Weisman
314 - Just a point on your terminology. There is no such thing as a "saber budget." There may be differences between any two teams that use sabermetrics - the Dodgers and Red Sox certainly are an example - but an excess of money does not mean sabermetrics has to disappear.
2005-10-04 12:42:54
318.   Telemachos
How come the Dodgers' budget gets lower with every gripe? I've never heard anything official less than $88 million... and plenty of teams with less of a payroll were able to compete and even make the playoffs.

McCourt's finances may become an issue at some point -- but to date the reasons for the Dodgers failure has nothing to do with the team budget.

2005-10-04 12:45:08
319.   Dave
Don't forget that Phillips replaced Ishii. That's still a good exchange. It's not his fault he was a pawn in a failed power struggle. He has value, maybe not much, but there are worse backup catchers.
2005-10-04 12:46:04
321.   Penarol1916
314- What? Since when is saber a synonym for cheap? Do you even understand what sabermetrics means? Could you at least try to explain this incredibly baffling post?
2005-10-04 12:46:15
322.   Izzy
The one thing that aggraveted me time and again is that Trace would move guys around way too much. Just put Repko in center and leave him there for 80 or 90 consecutive games. Or put Choi out there for 80 or 90 and see what he can do. Platooning is a stop gap measure at best, because there are only 12-13 spots on a team for position players. You cannot run a team like that. Players must have a position and not be afraid if they make one mistake they are out the next game. Thanks for everything though Jim, it was fun. I doubt you would have been platooning except for Depo.


2005-10-04 12:47:19
323.   D4P
They could also auction off "Dodger manager nights*" on eBay as a source of additional revenue.

*wristwatch included

2005-10-04 12:47:24
324.   GoBears
314 That's insane. Sabermetrics does not have anything whatsoever to do with payroll. It's about finding better and better measures of player quality. Knowing that OBP and SLG are better indicators than, say, RBI and BA. The better one understands that, the better one will spend his budget, getting the most out of it. Now, if you're good at player analysis AND have a bigger budget, then even better. But to say that the Red Sox don't analyze players in modern ways is absurd.
Manny, Millar, Ortiz - I can see "small ball" managers sitting all of these guys because they can't bunt or play defense.

"Moneyball," then, is about optimizing that budget. So if there are two equally valuable skills, but one is overvalued by the market (e.g., speed) and the other is undervalued (e.g., patience/pitch-selection), then spend wisely up until marginal value equals marginal cost. I'm not saying that speed and patience are equally important. It was just a "for-instance."

Or, here's a shorter answer: Bill James, who INVENTED sabermetrics, is a full-time consultant to the GM. And if you know anything about Bill James, you'd know that he wouldn't stick around if he were being ignored.

2005-10-04 12:51:22
325.   Marty
So, anything happen in the last 16 hours or so? I was on my bedroom computer and lost track of time.
2005-10-04 12:52:43
326.   Marty
308 That reminds me of the California official that drank a glass of Paraquat to prove it was safe.
2005-10-04 12:53:59
327.   Bob Timmermann
The College of Coaches by the Cubs was a disaster. The idea was that the Cubs would provide one unified style of instructing players throughout the system. The problem was that once each guy got to the majors, he wanted things done his way and would have players doing different things. Pitchers would be told to throw different pichers, starters would become bench players, etc.

The concept of a general manager, i.e., a business person who held a title in between that of the field manager and the owner didn't start until the 1920s. Most of the decision makers before then were in ownership (most notably guys like Ed Barrow and Branch Rickey.)

I believe Billy Evans was the first guy with the title of general manager.

And a Dodger GM dictating that he wants things done his way and in tune with his philosophy and not the manager? What would Branch Rickey say?

And why did Walter Alston last so long? "Yes, Mr. Bavasi. Yes, Mr. Campanis."

2005-10-04 12:58:30
328.   Eric Enders
"Platooning is a stop gap measure at best"


Platooning won the 1914 World Series for the Braves. It won a bunch of World Series for Casey Stengel's Yankees. It's a proven strategy; if you do it right, it works. Period. Even on winning teams -- perhaps especially on winning teams. Tracy was unable to platoon this year partly because he didn't have the parts to do so.

2005-10-04 13:00:53
329.   Jon Weisman
328 - the other part being he did have the parts at first base, but misused them.
2005-10-04 13:03:14
330.   LetsGoDodgers
It's not the size of the budget but how it's spent. DePo could sign Washburn and some LOOGY's in the offseason, easily get the payroll north of $100MM, and put us in line for another 90-loss season.

This offseason is worse than last offseason. The free agent market will be even more over-valued due to lack of supply. The trade market won't be great either as GM's try to unload their mistakes (Abreu, Thome, etc.) while clinging to their mid-range guys. So your options as a GM with a healthy budget are to either allocate 15 - 20% of your budget to one player or mortgage the future and trade away your best minor leaguers for one former All-Star.

It's like choosing between a broken leg or a broken arm.

2005-10-04 13:05:22
331.   gvette
327--Maybe there is room to revive the old Bill Veeck stunt of having the crowd make managerial moves by voice vote (the loudest cheer for a proposed move posted on placards shown the crowd wins).

According to Buzzie Bavasi's autobiography, Alston was almost fired by O'Malley several times (most notably after '62) but was saved by Bavasi who correctly felt he couldn't control the probable successor, Leo Durocher.

2005-10-04 13:05:36
332.   Eric Enders
I'm currently editing a book which contains a bio of Branch Rickey. I found this passage by author Tony Bunting particularly amusing in relation to the 2005 Dodgers:

At the start of the 1914 season, major league baseball was completely unprepared for Branch Rickey, manager. "Just what bitter formula has been compounded by Messrs. McGraw and Mack in building championship teams is nothing to Rickey," wrote Hunt Stromberg of the Sporting News prior to the 1914 campaign. "He has ideas, suggestions, plans, schemes, and a system which is oceanwide different from any system employed by a major league manager." The fledgling skipper confounded some of his old-guard peers by introducing handball courts (to "brighten" his players' eyes, he said), sprinter's tracks, batting cages, and a sliding pit—new to baseball training then—at the Browns' camp in Florida. Falling back on his college experience, he held daily classroom-type sessions regarding strategy with his team. In the parlance of today, he was "cutting edge." The press, sometimes derisively, labeled his approach to the game as "theoretical," "educated," or "blackboard" baseball. Rickey bristled at such characterizations.
"I want no theoretical base ball," he said. "In plain words—to hell with that report. I have never made such a statement. I know absolutely nothing regarding the 'law of averages,' but if it is thought that playing an intelligent game and watching closely the fine points, call it that if you wish."

2005-10-04 13:06:07
333.   Telemachos
330 However, with the Dodgers having $35-40 million free and clear, if the Phillies make someone like Abreu available, he's worth spending some serious cash on -- even if we're essentially just taking on his contract.
2005-10-04 13:10:03
334.   LetsGoDodgers
To make matters even worse, the competition for talent is greater. Not only do the Dodgers need to compete with the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Angels and Cubs for high-rent players, but Cleveland and Toronto are entering the fray this offseason.

DePo has said he's looking forward to financial flexibility, but I'm not sure that helps when there's not much to spend it on.

2005-10-04 13:12:18
335.   blue22
334 - Then the Dodgers may be forced to suck it up and bring Bradley back.

An OF of Cruz/Drew/Bradley with Ledee/Werth as backups isn't horrible.

At least better than giving Matsui 4/$50M.

2005-10-04 13:12:44
336.   LetsGoDodgers
Am I happy that Jim Tracy is no longer managing the Dodgers? My answer would be yes.

Will I be even happier if DePo and McCourt take a chance on Ron Washington as the new manager? I would think so.

2005-10-04 13:16:57
337.   SMY
If memory serves me, Tracy was platooning guys long before DePo was on board. And if Repko played for 90 straight games, this season would have been over way earlier.
2005-10-04 13:17:00
338.   dzzrtRatt
332 Now, that's the germ of a column that a great newspaper would publish in the wake of Tracy's departure. A column on the impact innovative thinking has had on baseball throughout its history, and relating that to the clash between old-school Tracy and new-school DePo. "You think 'Moneyball' is something new? It is, and it isn't. Back in 1914..."

But the Times would rather emote than enlighten.

2005-10-04 13:17:02
339.   LetsGoDodgers
Have you seen Abreu's contract??? He is a fantastic player, don't get me wrong, but I don't think he's worth the money, especially in 2007.

As for Bradley, I think whatever favor he curried with his intensity was lost on domestic battery.

2005-10-04 13:18:58
340.   das411
328 - Don't forget, the granddaddy of all Saber + Scrap hybrids went with three platoons in the starting 8 and reached the World Series.

Of course, having some kids named Schilling and Mulholland helped that year too...

2005-10-04 13:18:59
341.   blue22
336 - It's not just you, but more of the culmination of all the Ron Washington talk. What in the world is the fascination here? He was a character in Moneyball, but just as someone who taught the good hit/no field guys Beane and Depodesta brought in to play the infield.

So far as I know, he has no managerial nor bench coach experience. The fact that he had been seen recently in an Oakland A's uniform does not make him an ideal candidate for the LA position.

Does anyone agree with me?

2005-10-04 13:19:26
342.   Eric Enders
"Then the Dodgers may be forced to suck it up and bring Bradley back."

I certainly hope that's the case. Whatever his off-the-field issues (and they certainly do exist), they pale in comparison to a lot of MLB players who aren't considered cancers. The domestic squabbles are disturbing, but certainly not as disturbing as their initial report led me to believe. Bradley comes across in the audio clip of the 911 call as the non-agressor and positively calm.

DePo would basically be shooting the 2006 Dodgers in the foot if Bradley didn't return. Unlike most around here, I'll be very, very surprised if he's not on the team next year.

2005-10-04 13:21:49
343.   blue22
339 - His contract is manageable due to the length remaining. IIRC, it's a 2/$28M.

In order to land Giles or Matsui, you'll need a 3 or 4 year deal, in the neighborhood of $11 - $13M per.

Of course, we don't give anyone up in order to sign either of those...

2005-10-04 13:22:43
344.   dzzrtRatt
335 I don't think the team can afford to part with Bradley. There's got to be another way in which he can pay penance for his misdeeds. Because we know this won't end his career. Even if you accept the worst possible assumptions concerning his rage and violence at home, you know damn well that if the Dodgers drop him, another team will pick him up in an instant. It's not like we'd be driving him out of the sport. So, perhaps, it would be smarter to think about how we can help Bradley further down the road to recovery from rage addiction, provide some measure of protection for his wife and child, keep him on a short leash, but put him back on the team next year.
2005-10-04 13:23:20
345.   blue22
342 - What's the order of events this offseason re: arbitration and Free Agency?

My gut is that Depo would like to take a run at Giles, but maybe have Bradley waiting in the wings in the likelihood that Giles goes somewhere else.

2005-10-04 13:25:53
346.   Bob Timmermann

Close of World Series October 15th or the day following the end of the World Series (whichever is later) -- marks the commencement of the 15-day period during which eligible players may elect free agency or demand a trade.

November 10 -- Waivers secured on/after Aug. 1, 2005, expire at 5:00 p.m. ET.

November 11 -- New waiver period begins. Waivers (exclusive of Special waivers) secured today and after shall be in effect until February 15, 2006.

November 19 -- Day to file reserve lists for all Minor League levels and Major Leagues.
Last date to make an off-season outright assignment of an injured player to the Minor Leagues if the player does not meet the requirements listed in Article XIX(C)(b) of the Basic Agreement.

December 7 -- Last date for former club of player who declared free agency under Art. XX (B) to offer salary arbitration. If Club does not offer, then it loses all rights to negotiate with and sign the free agent until May 1st of the next season.

December 8 -- Major League Rule 5 Draft

December 19 -- Last date for player, who declared free agency under Art. XX (B), to accept an arbitration offer of former club. If player rejects offer to go to arbitration, his former club may still negotiate with and sign him until January 8th of next season.

December 20 -- Last date to tender contracts.

2005-10-04 13:28:35
347.   Eric Enders
Even if we keep Bradley, we need to acquire another heavy-hitting outfielder. Werth cannot be counted on as a starter; both his quality of play and durability are huge question marks. Plus if both Drew and Bradley are around next year, chances are Werth will be a starter by the All Star break anyway.

I'd like our outfield next year to consist of Dunn in LF, Bradley in CF and Drew in RF, with Cruz and Werth waiting in the wings.

Of course, I'd also like to date Scarlett Johansson...

2005-10-04 13:29:45
348.   blue22
So Depo can make a run at Giles (or any other FA), and have until 12/7 to make a decision on Milton?

Sounds like Milton may be a contigency plan.

2005-10-04 13:31:39
349.   carmiguel
Hmmm...Not a peep from Tommy Lasorda...

Regarding the fiasco of a season, one wonders whether the loss of Jim Riggleman as bench coach made any difference. Probably not a lot, but it's something to think about.

I think it would be a mistake to promote Jerry Royster to manager. The Las Vegas 51s were not even competitive last season. While a lot of it wasn't all Royster's fault, there were times when the team did not seem to play with heart. But don't be surprised to see Royster on the Dodger coaching staff next year.

2005-10-04 13:33:24
350.   Icaros
Of course, I'd also like to date Scarlett Johansson...

No way, I called dibs on her when "The Horse Whisperer" came out.

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-10-04 13:33:52
351.   LetsGoDodgers
I like Ron Washington precisely because he's good with infield defense. Considering all the ground ball pitchers on the roster, a better-fielding unit will help immensely. He would make a fantastic ancillary coach, but since it's likely he'll get offered a head coaching position, we would have to do the same to get him on board.

It also helps that he's been around a "Moneyball" GM so he has an inkling of what to do with the roster given to him.

2005-10-04 13:36:41
352.   Izzy
If you have to go back to 1914 to validate platooning, well......
Besides, I didn't say it would not work.
Stop gap means you don't have the right exact part to fix something, but something else will work for now. It's just that you use it as a last resort. You don't build a team on it. That's all:)
2005-10-04 13:37:28
353.   Eric Enders
Which means one of us is a perv... she was 13!
2005-10-04 13:39:02
354.   Eric Enders
Hard to tell whether you are simply being combative or intentionally dense... platooning has worked since AT LEAST 1914. Not ONLY in 1914.
2005-10-04 13:40:59
355.   blue22
351 - I getcha, and I don't mean to be so critical, but it seems that there are those that are anointing Washington as the obvious choice, even though his qualifications seem to be that Billy Beane keeps him around.

I mentioned Bob Geren before (also an A's coach), but Beane had specifically hired him to be a manager at several levels within Oakland's system, and is now coaching at the major league level. It seems that he is being "groomed", but they just offered an extension to Macha.

2005-10-04 13:42:49
356.   LetsGoDodgers
To continue the love affair with injured players on the mend, maybe we can get Austin Kearns instead of Adam Dunn. Sure, Dunn is the proven commodity, but the fee for Kearns would be a lot lower; something on the order of a Oscar Robles and a couple of minor league arms.
2005-10-04 13:44:03
357.   blue22
352 - What's wrong with platooning? You can still use the non-starter, so it's not like it wastes a roster spot.

And favorable split stats are a real thing, that should be leveraged.

2005-10-04 13:44:40
358.   D4P
Didn't women in Shakespeare's time (and before) get married by age 13 or 14?
2005-10-04 13:45:06
359.   blue22
356 - He's also way cheaper, which is why Cincy wants to hold on to him.

Dunn is due to make close to $10M more than Kearns next year.

2005-10-04 13:47:08
360.   Icaros
353 I was only 22 at the time. Besides, my thoughts then were not unclean.

She was very cute, but only a prospect at that point.

2005-10-04 13:48:14
361.   DougS
352 I vote intentionally dense. Casey Stengel didn't think of platooning as a last resort, and the Yankees did pretty well under him.

Besides, Tracy juggled his lineups a great deal even before this past season. Only then, it was considered a virtue because he was "keeping his bench players sharp" (i.e., the team was winning).

2005-10-04 13:49:51
362.   dzzrtRatt
355" seems that there are those that are anointing Washington as the obvious choice, even though his qualifications seem to be that Billy Beane keeps him around."

I know it's hard to remember, especially on a day like today, but we don't actually run the Dodgers. I doubt we'll be anointing anyone, and if DePodesta is aiming his laptop at DT for managerial suggestions, he probably needs to go on a spiritual retreat in the wilderness to get back in touch with himself.

In the meantime, though, it's interesting to speculate what DePo might do, given his predilictions.

2005-10-04 13:51:06
363.   dzzrtRatt
358 Women in Loretta Lynn's time got married that young.
2005-10-04 13:52:01
364.   LetsGoDodgers
359 - I realize that. I like Dunn a lot, but I think the cost is too high, as in a quality minor leaguer or two PLUS a lot of coin to sign him to an extension.
2005-10-04 13:52:11
365.   dzzrtRatt
358 Elvis began courting Priscilla when she was 12, I believe, and they were engaged not too long after. Not that Elvis should be your role model.
2005-10-04 13:54:29
366.   D4P
363, 365
Wow, you sure know your underage music romances.
2005-10-04 13:54:37
367.   Penarol1916
360. That reminds me of the character in 100 Years of Solitude who in his 40's picked his bride and then waited waited for her to have her 1st period to have the wedding.
2005-10-04 13:56:40
368.   Eric Enders
next, dzzrtRat will tell us about Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis.
2005-10-04 13:57:43
369.   D4P
I neither support nor condone the following statement, but I knew a guy who used to say "Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed."
2005-10-04 14:00:28
370.   King of the Hobos
It'd be nice to get a Washington/Geren manager/becnh coach combination, but would Beane allow it? I doubt it, but I can hope...
2005-10-04 14:01:52
371.   Icaros
I recently read this great book called "The Time Traveler's Wife" where this girl met her future husband when she was six and he was 36.

She actually started dating him, though, when she was 20 and he was 28.

2005-10-04 14:02:13
372.   dzzrtRatt
368 I just wanted to validate that the expressions of lust for a young Scarlett Johanson did not necessarily make you guys perverts. Although, I can't eliminate the possibility.

I'm more in the Sela Ward age bracket myself.

2005-10-04 14:02:15
373.   Penarol1916
369. Well, that's not offensive because that statement is technically true, and not necessarily a philosophy on life like the statements, "If there's grass on the field, then play ball," or "If they're old enough to crawl, then they're already in the right position."
2005-10-04 14:02:35
374.   King of the Hobos
I haven't seen it duscussed...Jim Leyland will not be the manager of the Dodgers. As expected, he will be named manager of the Tigers
2005-10-04 14:03:39
375.   Icaros
369 This is a baseball site. I think you want to go with, "If there's grass on the infield, it's time to play ball."

Can't you just imagine Vin Scully saying that?

2005-10-04 14:04:21
376.   Icaros
373 stole my line.
2005-10-04 14:05:13
377.   blue22
370 - I'd think that if he denied his 3B coach and/or bullpen coach the chance to go interview for a ML managing job in the same offseason that you offered an extension to your current manager, you might have a couple of unhappy campers on your hands.
2005-10-04 14:06:32
378.   Icaros
372 I wrote a couple days ago about the hot middle-aged women on "Weeds," Elizabeth Perkins and Mary-Louise Parker.
2005-10-04 14:07:23
379.   gcrl
353 - this is in line with the "natalie portman rule" which allowed for people to note after seeing "beautiful girls" that she was a candidate for future ogling without being seen as pervs. it's a precedent.
2005-10-04 14:09:05
380.   Robert Fiore
The root of the conflict between DePodesta and Tracy is the kind of manager Tracy is. Tracy is devoted to the situational approach, and is intimately tied in with what a particular player does against a particular pitcher, and so forth. When you have a GM who's willing to make wholesale changes in the roster it leaves Tracy not knowing exactly what tools he has, or without the particular tools he wants. The Choi situation is the perfect example. Choi is the kind of player you have to let play. Sometimes he'll have his slumps and sometimes he'll carry the team. To Tracy he was just an unreliable tool, and Tracy would only use him in situations where he felt some confidence in him. Choi can't succeed on that basis. The thing is, with most of your power core spending more time at the Kerlan/Jobe clinic than in the starting lineup, why not take a chance on the kid? What do you have to lose? Tracy didn't have the flexibility to adjust to the situation.

On another subject, there seems to be an assumption here that the only avenue to upgrade your roster is the free agent market. I think it's an absolute certainty that DePodesta is going to be trading prospects for front line players.

2005-10-04 14:11:37
381.   D4P
While not explicitly a "a philosophy on life", I suspect that the guy I quoted used it as such at an earlier point in his life (he was in his mid-20s at the time I knew him).

I had heard the one about the grass, but now about the crawl.

2005-10-04 14:15:51
382.   Eric Enders
It was easier in Portman's case because that issue was exactly what the movie was about. (One of my all-time faves, by the way. RIP Ted Demme.)

Thumbs up on Parker. Thumbs way down on Perkins.

2005-10-04 14:16:30
383.   jasonungar05
Washington has paid his dues, with 33 years in the game -- 20 as a player and 13 as a coach. He's responsible for turning Eric Chavez into a Gold Glove third baseman, and for helping Miguel Tejada become a premier shortstop. One of the main reasons the A's feel comfortable having a rookie, Bobby Crosby, replace Tejada, is that Washington is around.

"Wash has meant everything for my career,'' Chavez said. "Everything. He's taught me everything about how to play third base, and if I want to complain about stuff, he'll sit and listen and help rationalize it. He's the reason a lot of us here have had success early.''

"He'd be an awesome manager,'' Ellis said. "I'd play for him any day.''

2005-10-04 14:17:23
384.   Bob Timmermann
Hee-Seop Choi, Picking Machine!
2005-10-04 14:30:50
385.   Telemachos
I caught about 5 minutes of "The Loose Cannons" on AM 570 and (surprisingly) both Steve Hartman and Mychal Thompson were taking a somewhat pro-Depodesta view (against a typically raving Vic the Brick).

They weren't so much shouting Depo's praises as scorning the thought that Finley, Beltre, and Lima would've been worth the amounts they got paid.

Lasorda is supposedly on right now with them... but I'm back at work and not near a radio.

2005-10-04 14:32:36
386.   Jon Weisman
Mychal Thompson, erudite Dodger commentator? Who knew?
2005-10-04 14:39:45
387.   Telemachos
386 Heh. Yes.

Actually, Mychal was taking a pro-ownership view. When asked if he would want to spend money or turn a profit, he said "Turn a profit", though he agreed that the McCourts could probably go to $100 million on the payroll.

2005-10-04 14:42:09
388.   jasonungar05
Me to a life long, anti depo/mccourt dodger fan: How about Ron Washington as our next manager, he's a former dodger

Dodger fan back to me: oh great so we can be the Los Angeles A's? And thats no offense to Ron Washington.

Me back to dodger fan: I'll take an avg of 96 wins a season over the last 5-6 years, along with 4 playoff apperance, and thats no offense to the Oakland A's

Are Dodger fans really Raider fans nowdays? Are we/they that myopic? We haven't won anything in how long?

(I used to know, but dodger blues changed the ticker on me)

2005-10-04 14:47:57
389.   Bob Timmermann
Then the only solution for the Dodgers is to bring in Rich Gannon.
2005-10-04 14:48:06
390.   dzzrtRatt
388 Fandom is not rational. Of course Dodger fans are myopic. All fans are. We don't just predict who the best team will be each year, and root for them. We stick by them, even as we demand improvements when needed.

Sure, if it help them win, the Dodgers can be just like the A's. Better the A's than, say, the Royals.

2005-10-04 14:48:29
391.   Marty
Hire Kenny Stabler!
2005-10-04 14:49:43
392.   bojangles
For 156: Once more, with a clarity even you won't be able to befog: the facts working for me were as stated - His impact in 2004 was marginal; biggest contributors were from previous regimes. His impact in 2005 overwhelming: results among most disappointing in franchise history. Only the most stubborn true believers on this New Faith site continue to ignore he was at the heart of it all.
163: Sorry, sorta; strange marriage of os, browser, and this site - format is always a surprise to me when message is delivered.
2005-10-04 15:00:15
393.   bojangles

Nice post. Agree about the kind of play Choi needs if he's gonna be an important contributor to a champ contender. Don't have a high level of confidence, that with playing time he will be. Would like to have seen that (and others)
live test run this season.
That last para., having seen the beginnings of Depo's work, is what scares me.

2005-10-04 15:08:10
394.   Bob Timmermann
So you sort of have a zero tolerance policy for off years?
2005-10-04 15:09:44
395.   dzzrtRatt
392 Get beyond 2004 or 2005. You can't judge DePodesta until his impact on player development can be measured, which means years from now. Dan Evans got screwed, okay? He started the turnaround in the farm system that DePodesta is continuing, so you can say, if you want, that we're in the Evans-DePodesta era. Whatever: As long as it's the post-Malone era.

The only reason Jim Tracy was still here until yesterday is: McCourt didn't own the team until spring training 2004 was about to begin. He decided that he would toss Evans over and hire DePodesta. DePodesta might have realized Tracy was not his kind of manager the day he met him, but for the good of the team, he decided to maintain the status quo for the 2004 season that was about to start imminently.

The Dodgers surprised everybody and won the (weak) NL West. At that point, DePodesta realized that, politically, he had to bring Tracy back, but I'm sure he had concerns about it. Those concerns only grew through 2005, as Tracy in word and deed defied and undermined DePo's policies. So now DePo has finally done what he probably wanted to do in March of '04--dump Tracy in order to bring in a manager who is beholden to him, and who accepts the job with the understanding that DePo's philosophy is team policy.

DePo deserves a chance to see if his policies will work, as any GM does. Tracy was a needless obstacle, which doesn't make him a bad manager or a scapegoat. Just not the right guy.

If you want to throw DePo over, just realize, that means we've completely wasted the last two years, and will be starting over, with presumably a new philosophy. My preference would be to let the DePo era play out, and to judge him at the end of his contract.

2005-10-04 15:19:28
396.   Bob Timmermann
The alternatives to the DePodesta style of management would be having a GM like Pat Gillick or Jim Bowden running the Dodgers. It's clear that Evans wasn't going to come back.

Would having either Gillick or Bowden be any marginally better?

2005-10-04 15:21:37
397.   King of the Hobos
DePo is no longer the youngest GM in the league, so can he still be called the boy genius?
2005-10-04 15:22:50
398.   GoBears
392, along with several previous rants, is what happens when one writes to impress, and not to communicate. One only ends up impressing oneself, while one's readers just ignore the blather and move on. Not that they can't figure it out, but it ain't worth the effort.

393, by the same poster, by contrast, is much more clear.

As my high school English teacher used to say (many many years ago): eschew obfuscation. Otherwise, what's the point?

2005-10-04 15:27:39
399.   Bob Timmermann
Who is the youngest GM? Isn't Epstein younger than DePodesta?
2005-10-04 15:31:10
400.   Eric Enders
Theo is younger, but he's not in the league.

I have no idea who the youngest NL GM is if not DePo.

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2005-10-04 15:32:18
401.   King of the Hobos
399 Maybe, I thought DePo was youngest, but I could be wrong. The Rangers are going to announce tonight that the 28 yr old Jon Daniels will replace John Hart
2005-10-04 15:33:18
402.   Bob Timmermann
I was reading this book last week called "The Picture of Walt Jocketty".

Maybe it's him.

2005-10-04 15:33:28
403.   King of the Hobos
400 Probably DePo. I don't keep track of GM ages, so I guess my memory forgot DePo was NL and not entire MLB.
2005-10-04 15:37:51
404.   Bob Timmermann
The relevant passage from the Texas GM story:

Hart, whose teams won six division titles in his last seven years in Cleveland ending in 2001, will be replaced by Daniels, who at 28 years, 41 days, is about 10 months younger than Theo Epstein was when he became Boston's GM on Nov. 25, 2002. Daniels was promoted from assistant GM and Hart will remain a team consultant, the team said.

2005-10-04 16:15:10
405.   DougS
The irony of longtime Dodgers fans hating DePo as a "Moneyball-" style GM is that Branch Rickey — arguably the greatest and most influential Dodgers GM — understood many of the basic principles of "Moneyball" before "Moneyball" was "Moneyball."

The way I see it, DePodesta is actually trying to build a team that will look like some of the most successful Dodgers teams of the past: the Brooklyn teams of the '50's and the LA teams of the mid-late '70's. Those teams got on base a lot and scored runs by the bucketful. And for Dodgers fans who are scared of relying on the farm system for talent: Well, why do you think the Dodgers were successful back in the day? They traded for core players occasionally, but Al Campanis resisted going after big-ticket free agents for the longest time. As a Dodgers fan of 35 years and counting, I am quite pleased to see that our farm system is our best hope for the future, and that the current GM understands that.

2005-10-04 16:30:01
406.   scanderbeg
405 - Recent championship teams ('03 Marlins and '02 Angels) have proven that building from within the organization can be a successful method.

On a side note, how did Chris Carpenter go end up with the Cardinals? Was it through a trade or free agency?

2005-10-04 16:41:04
407.   blue22

"October 9, 2002: Released by the Toronto Blue Jays. "

2005-10-04 16:46:00
408.   alexx
Oct. 1 "GM Dan O'Brien suggested that he might be more willing to trade either Kearns or Wily Mo Pena this offseason, the Cincinnati Enquirer reports."

"Cincinnati intends to try to convert Kearns to third base, where he should have the athletic skills to be serviceable at the new position."

Why not trade for Kearns and move him to third and then find another outfielder? Or do we not want another season of sub-par defense at third?

2005-10-04 17:00:04
409.   alexx
Oh yeah, because we have Mr. LaRoche waiting in the wings.
2005-10-04 17:06:48
410.   Bob Timmermann
The key thing to note in Chris Carpenter's career record is the absence of stats for 2003.

That's why he was a free agent.

2005-10-04 17:15:16
411.   King of the Hobos
409 Get Kearns for 3B, then put him in the OF when Laroche is ready. Fine by me, if he can play 3B, and hit
2005-10-04 17:24:02
412.   bill cox
Another solid Depo move:
Not giving Matt Clement some rediculous salary to pull a Scott Erickson in game one of the playoffs.
If the media are interviewing players about Tracy's demise I wonder what all star first baseman,Jason Phillips,outfielder Scrappy McRepko,pinch hitter extraordinaire Jason Grabowski will have to say.
2005-10-04 17:26:53
413.   Eric Enders
Whether Kearns can play 3B is a question mark.
Whether Kearns can hit is a question mark.
Heck, whether Kearns will be able to play, period, is a question mark.

I don't get all this dire need to acquire a third baseman. We have a truckload of high-end 3B prospects in the minors, and also a perfectly acceptable stopgap for next year. Do we really have so few problems that we need to start fixing things that aren't broke?

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to acquiring Kearns as a 4th OF type. Except we seem to be collecting those by the bushelful, too.

2005-10-04 17:42:15
414.   Louis in SF
I have read today alot of truth and alot of half-baked theroy on what happened and what is going to happen regarding the Dodgers. As much as they are hated on this site, the one point that Bob has been reenforcing all day is the hate the LAT has for McCourt, and I can't say that I blame them completly, at the same time everyone knew that rebuilding the team would not be done overnight, so a move like last night should not come as a shock. However, the prospects that are coming may not be fully ready until 07, and the current roster even when healthy has many holes. I am almost more interested not in who will manage, but what outfielders can the Dodgers get, will Jeff Kent want to play on this team, what can we expect from Bradley, Weaver and Perez who will replace at least one and possibly both. Many questions, and yes a manager to keep everyone happy
2005-10-04 17:48:21
415.   Telemachos
414 I don't necessarily disagree with your post; however, I don't see how you can give the LAT a free pass with their McCourt "hate".

They've hated him and his guys since day 1, regardless of the 2004 division win. They've hated him far more, and far more quickly, than they "hated" the Fox regime. It's unreasoned hatred, and not argued persuasively at all -- it's just kneejerk reaction at this point.

2005-10-04 17:48:51
416.   bojangles
395: Nice work; wouldn't have written last three paras, can't embrace fully, but like the light that's there. Don't have a final judgment about Depo. As oft-stated, was enthused at his hiring. No enthusiasm left at this juncture, having responded, pre-season and regular, to the work-in-progress (I like process more than product - so far, Paul's process, with a few notable excepts, sucks). Agree, with important limits, about player development, but isn't that more Logan White's job, and hasn't the split about Paul among fans been more about the way the game is analyzed and played (There Is Only One Way To The Grail And It's Our Way) and the way management speaks to its employees and fans? (And, if Paul has to go after another year too much like this one - he doesn't get someone else's five, as Billy Beane would, as Theo might, as the kid in Cleveland probably would, 'cause all his kudos to date are corporate, and not his - I'll trust there'll still be some worthwhile assets in the system so it won't be as much of a setback as you fear.) Not a Jim Tracy fan (oft-stated), not in the Bill Plaschke camp - (though he's not always and automatically on the wrong side of Dodger witness), so far not a McCourt fan (the whole clan and its world view) - though the angst about a $100 mil payroll leaves me cold), and not a fan of the constant bad-luck dirge about this year, and the implication Paul was only unlucky.
Much as it pains me to say it, the hard, real-world, out-of-computer evidence is that Bowden's way was better than Paul's - this year. And both labored with significant front-office constraints, and big-impact in-season injuries, many of them, in both camps, an essential part of the GM's job description to foresee. It's that inability/unwillingness to embrace a wider vision of the game, it's history, it's current truths and the evidence that supports them, in other words, the unwillingness to "play fair" as the highly-biased arbiter asked in beginning this thread, that sometimes leads to a little too much steam in some of my late-night, early-morning rags.
398: I've enjoyed a few of your posts in my sporadic visits. Can't say I like the paternal tone in this one all that much, and re-reading 392, hard-pressed to find just where the hell I was trying to impress more than make a point. Was it "befog" that set you off? 'Cause otherwise, seems the essential terms are ones like "clarity," "impact," "true believers," "New Faith," and "heart."
I will admit "clarity" had to be a work of labor and love in some of the previous stuff.
There's reason and purpose in that, well beyond ball, and, maybe a fathom or two beyond the rules for usual exchange...I apologize. It's like the cap in football.
With limited time, I try to get most bang for syntactic buck, and am serving some of my own needs while trying to honor the community's as well; Don't always succeed, which doesn't leave me feelin' like the Lone Ranger, here. Never tryin' to do what you accused me, with the arrogance I associate with this site, of.
Since I have previously been under your skin, I was thinkin' of urging you to pass the stuff by with my name on it - that's what I do when someone consistently gets under mine, except for Occasional-Too-Fanly-Jon, since he sets much of the tone in the joint.
The good news is that it won't be necessary; I have a new calculus for this landscape - in spite of some really discerning stuff like 380 and 395, the best of Jon's consistently good insights, folks like Howard and Vishal and Molokai and a personal Dandy Dozen more of my own (I would take the trite short-cut and say "you know who you are," but, alas and alack, y'don't) the over-all weight of the place strikes me as bigotted, dishonest and full of adolescent denial. And frankly, I come to places like this and a few others, fifteen minutes here and there, to escape those traits all too evident in our foreign policy, the way we educate, the way we share wealth. There are even some otherwise-fun posters who think it acceptable to get after players 'cause they ain't suitably telegenic.
No fun. Not worth even the occasional exchange, especially if the exchange is gonna focus on the way we say more than what we say. That crosses a line, for me.
Be well, blue gals and blue guys.
Nothin' but the best for you, one and all.
I'm gonna have a t-shirt made in honor of
the place: gonna read, DODGER FEELINGS!!!
2005-10-04 17:56:00
417.   bojangles
Doug - Almost always "got" your posts. Thanks.
One of the dozen or so whose names escaped me just well.
2005-10-04 17:58:15
418.   Eric Enders
"the over-all weight of the place strikes me as bigotted"


2005-10-04 18:41:58
419.   Bob Timmermann
OK, I tried figuring out 416, but ultimately I left my Rosetta Stone at home.
2005-10-04 18:49:45
420.   Eric Enders
Same here, although I vote that we try to make the nickname "Occasionally-Too-Fanly-Jon" stick.
2005-10-04 19:03:41
421.   Steve
He meant bigotated.
2005-10-04 19:05:36
422.   Bob Timmermann
What is Jim Bowden's philosophy of being a GM? Other than blaming everybody else for his problems?
2005-10-04 19:14:02
423.   Bob Timmermann
The initial stories I read in the Dallas Morning News about the new GM there aren't nearly as patronizing as the LA Times stories when DePodesta took over.

Then again, who of any consequence in Dallas is going to write about the Rangers now that the season is over and it's football season?

The Rangers likely could have appointed a chimpanzee GM today and nobody would have noticed in Dallas.

2005-10-04 19:19:36
424.   Art H Tracy
Is it conceivable that Depo could find a capable guy who regarded the field manager job as a stepping stone to a GM job? If he can, that's the guy I want.
2005-10-04 19:24:39
425.   Terry A
423 Hockey's starting, too.

"the over-all weight of the place strikes me as bigotted, dishonest and full of adolescent denial..."

Somebody obviously missed the "...old enough to crawl..." posts earlier.

And finally... how old is Houston's GM?

2005-10-04 19:25:01
426.   GoBears
416 The defense rests. Geez.
2005-10-04 19:25:40
427.   Terry A
And in no way are the final two paragraphs of my previous posts related.
2005-10-04 19:44:47
428.   Eric Enders
I think Tim Purpurra is past legal age, so you're safe. ;)
2005-10-04 20:27:25
429.   dzzrtRatt
I'm thinking Jon might want to install a Breathalyzer on this site.
2005-10-04 20:43:33
430.   D4P
FYI: Dodger Blues plans on changing the Gibson clock back to Gibson.

The "A$$hole of the Moment" is "You douchebags: Relax, nutjobs. The Gibson clock will be back in a couple days... the Tracy clock is just a joke. We didn't just rape your mom, so please spare us the angry emails as if we did."

2005-10-04 21:20:54
431.   Steve
I often wonder if DB Guy walks among us, disguised in the open.

Probably Icaros.

2005-10-04 21:32:32
432.   Bob Timmermann
Not me, the computers at the Supreme Court can't access Dodger Blues.
2005-10-04 21:33:59
433.   D4P
I've wondered the same thing (though with respect to another board). I think he has borrowed some of my material.
2005-10-04 22:01:56
434.   Steve
Whoever he is, he gave me my first link. So God Bless You, DB Guy.
2005-10-04 22:39:50
436.   Yakface
Lil Peanut!
2005-10-04 22:42:21
437.   underdog

No they couldn't have; the Devil Rays already have the chimpanzee GM.

2005-10-04 23:21:53
438.   Bob Timmermann
Actually the big fear in Texas is that the new GM will just be a Showalter puppet. He has the reputation of trying to model himself after Schuerholz, which isn't a bad role model.
2005-10-04 23:45:44
439.   Eric Enders
Is there some kind of contest going on today for most bizarre post in DT history? Because there have really been some whoppers.
2005-10-04 23:50:34
440.   Bob Timmermann
I think some people were playing the contest:

White Sox hit a home run, drink two shots of whiskey.

2005-10-05 00:02:13
441.   capdodger
440 That or there's handle hijacking going on here. But something odd indeed.
2005-10-05 00:03:26
442.   LAT
435. I'm sure your parents are very proud you and your mastery of the written word. Glad to hear you don't like Jon, DT or us posters if it means you will be going far away.
2005-10-05 00:12:55
443.   Louis in SF
Wednesday's LA Times says Terry Collins, Royster are two people in the organization who have expressed interest in the opening and DePodesta is interested in them. I know about Royster and his sad experience with Milwaukee, but what about Collins. He claims to have good communication with DePodesta.
2005-10-05 00:16:42
444.   Bob Timmermann
Collins is a bit intense. I wonder if he would have the patience to handle younger players. But at least he knows who they are and what they can do.

But I can't imagine that having five consecutive second place finishes with two different teams is a great thing to have on your resume.

2005-10-05 00:24:17
445.   Bob Timmermann
Of course, there also stories where writers have asked Scioscia about taking the Dodgers job, which he has understandably declined as he has a very nice deal.

The one thing that struck me was that Scioscia lives in Westlake Village. And then commutes to Anaheim.

That's like 2 hours each way. Even with no traffic. OK, maybe 90 minutes with no traffic.

2005-10-05 00:33:29
446.   Louis in SF
Good point Bob and thanks for reminding me about the intensity of Collins, I want to say that was one of the reasons why he was fired?..The Daily News story by Tony Jackson refers to a clubhouse last year where Dodgers where constantly checking their cell phones and not focused on the games.
2005-10-05 00:35:48
447.   Louis in SF
Bob, as a member of SABR, what do you know about the chapter in the Bay Area? Will I be ignored as a Dodger fan in SF if I join the Lefty O'Doul chapter?
2005-10-05 00:43:18
448.   Bob Timmermann
The SABR people in San Francisco likely won't care much if you're a Dodgers fan. That's not their style.
2005-10-05 00:45:59
449.   Icaros
I should be a Dodger fan in SF by November.
2005-10-05 00:52:33
450.   Louis in SF
Icaros, let me know when you get up here..thanks Bob
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2005-10-05 01:27:30
451.   DougS
442 I was under the impression that 435 was a parody-response to 416 (hike!)... and BTW, was that me mentioned in 417? 'Cause that kind of freaks me out....

443 Isn't Terry Collins the minor league coordinator, or something like that? Which might make him a solid choice for mananger of the big club.

2005-10-05 07:42:53
452.   Bob Timmermann
As for SABR members anywhere, they tend not to be fans of the type who will get into an argument with a fan of another team. There are TONS of Red Sox and Yankees fans who are members and it's not like each convention turns into a Pier Six brawl.
2005-10-05 08:04:14
453.   Sam DC
Took yesterday off, glad to have done so I think. But it may have been somewhat inappropriate of me, I guess, to be celebrating family time, yet thinking "Wonder what's going on in the Dodger Thoughts comments today?"

Anyhow, amidst some pretty shocking outliers, some great stuff in the last two days, topped off I guess by Ratt's etymology of a blog and Vishal's follow up. Too good.

I sure thought the whole rollout of the Tracy thing was professional and appropriate. (Sitrick earning their keep, I guess.) Tracy too, while not pitch-perfect, seems to have taken a reasonably rise-above-it approach.

Finally, I guess folks are all going with the "ignore it, be mature" approach, but I just can't and I'm sorry if saying something only stirs the pot. Yakface, that is so grossly out of line and offensive, you should be ashamed. Jon has only treated you with respect, even when he disagreed with you, and you can well push back or criticise him without bringing all that garbage into this space that he has made available for us all. Maybe you just overheated yesterday, we all have at times; but you should right sure apologize for your awful and hateful language.

2005-10-05 08:05:08
454.   Sam DC
453 scratch two "I guess"es of your choice.
2005-10-05 08:08:23
455.   Sam DC
Far fewer "smartball = 5 home runs plus great pitching" jokes in the playoff thread than I expected. For crying out loud, Scott Podsednik hit a home run!
2005-10-05 08:14:13
456.   LAT
451. I don't think its a parody, but if it is than its in bad tase and not funny. Either way its offensive and doesn't belong.
2005-10-05 08:23:37
457.   Improbable88
From the daily news this morning...

"The late-August blowup between second baseman Jeff Kent and center fielder Milton Bradley, which almost certainly is going to lead to Bradley being traded or non-tendered this winter, has been well-chronicled."

GAH! What must we continute ushering Bradley out the door. This feels, most ominously, like a self-fulfilling prophesy, like the writers are willing his departure.

I am hoping, however, that the nutjob factor weighs low on Depo's priority list. If Milton is the best and cheapst option at center, and I think we can all agree he is if healthy, Depo will keep him around

2005-10-05 08:25:50
458.   Penarol1916
456. I thought that the post was too befogged to be offensive.
2005-10-05 08:40:16
459.   Marty
I typically write in the same fashion I think and speak (insert joke here). If that's true for 416, then whoa Nellie, having a conversation with him must be a chore.
2005-10-05 08:45:27
460.   Sam DC
Snapshot of one smart national baseball writer's take on Tracy, from yesterday WashPost chat:

Chicago, Ill.: Any comments on firings of Trammel and Tracy - 2 good guys with bad clubs. Would Tigers really take Leyland? Will Torre reup for another year with George?

Dave Sheinin: Looks to me like Leyland is all but wrapped up as the Tigers' new manager. He and GM Dave Dombrowski have worked with each other in Chicago and Florida, and won the 1997 World Series together in Florida. The Dodgers' firing of Tracy seemed to be a clear-cut example of an old-school manager being unable to coexist with a new-school GM (Paul DePodesta). . . . (or go to and look up yesterday's chats)

Later in the chat there's talk that Carlos Delgado might be available this offseason as the Marlins cut payroll.

2005-10-05 08:55:39
461.   blue22
460 - Delgado has 3/$48M to go on his contract. His contract was backloaded, as they only paid him $4.5M this year.

Definitely a big bat, but probably out of LA's price range.

2005-10-05 08:58:15
462.   FirstMohican
From LAT: "I'm honored to have my name involved," [Terry]Collins said. "I work in a whole different department than the major league team, but are we on the same page? The answer is yes. Our communication is really good."

Does that quote scare anyone else? I don't have know if the answer is attainable through traditional methods of communication.

2005-10-05 09:07:41
463.   Jon Weisman
I'm deleting comment 435. I don't think it was a joke, but even if it was, it broke the posting rules here in about every way imaginable.

462 - I found that quote positive in and of itself. I may write more about him in an upcoming post.

2005-10-05 09:18:55
464.   FirstMohican
Think my sarcasm might be at a different frequency.. or... baud rate...
2005-10-05 09:26:41
465.   Eric Enders
Collins is one of the few candidates I've heard mentioned who doesn't make me nauseous.
2005-10-05 09:30:35
466.   SMY
I don't think this was posted before...but wow, I didn't think it was possible to be any more hacktastic than the Times.

2005-10-05 09:34:57
467.   Eric Enders
Oh, you want hacktastic, do you? Try this:

2005-10-05 09:40:09
468.   SMY
Yes, you are right. The hacktastic competition is getting strong.

I made the mistake on clicking on a few of the comments below that Sportsline article. God, that was stupid of me.

2005-10-05 09:45:10
469.   Eric Enders
Although the Sportsline copy editor does deserve props for using the phrase "Dodger Boobs" in a non-Lima context.
2005-10-05 10:02:27
470.   Marty
Mike Waldner strikes again!
2005-10-05 10:31:56
471.   Adam M

"a free-agent manager who will be climbing the charts with a bullet, look for the respected Tracy to land with another team -- most likely Pittsburgh or Florida"

How is going from the Dodgers to Pittsburgh "climbing the charts with a bullet." That's like moving from to Sportsline.

More to the point, Miller argues Tracy left rather than manage a "spreadsheet" team that clearly couldn't win. But why did Tracy sign a two-year deal last year to manage the exact same team? Where did Sportsline get this clown?

2005-10-05 10:47:25
472.   SMY
In Buster Olney's Insider blog yesterday, he said that Tracy will land in Pittsburgh, and it would be a "perfect fit". It's the same thing -- why exactly is it a perfect fit? Is it because Pittsburgh sucks, and Tracy has a thing for players who suck? Seriously, what difference does it make?
2005-10-05 11:13:16
473.   fanerman
471 - Tracy reunited with Lo Duca in Florida? Is that a dream come true?

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